1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fearing Greed Q and a whill we ask 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more. 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: I'm Sean Aylmer. Biotech company IMMU Gene reported its half 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: year results yesterday. It's still loss making, but sharply cutting 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: costs and seeing what appears to be genuinely encouraging clinical results. 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: Its lead cancer therapy, aser cell, is showing strong response 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: rates in difficult lymphoma cases, with some patients cancer free 8 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: for nearly two years, and the FDA has given positive 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: feedback on the company strategy. But at the same time, 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: the company share prices down around eighty percent over the 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: last year. Leslie Chong is the CEO and managing director 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: of Emmu Gene. Leslie, welcome to Fear and Greed. 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: I've got to ask upfront the business you're in, how 15 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: do you keep the faith because it is such a 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: long process. 17 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: That's a wonderful question. So look, I've been in the 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: industry of cancer drug development I dare say for almost 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: thirty years, twenty eight years to be exact. I started 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 2: quite young, as you can imagine. It has been a 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: lifelong dream to be able to have a drug that 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 2: actually leads to that C word, which is a positive 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: word of cure. And I'm very happy and proud that 24 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: I've been a part of that for most of my 25 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 2: adult life. 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 1: Now, So, emy Jane, what are your best prospects or 27 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: best prospect right now? 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: I think it's azer Cell hands down. Aser Cell is 29 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: showing that those results that really gets you through to 30 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 2: the marketing process. So you mentioned earlier, how do you 31 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: keep the faith? You have to You have to know 32 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: how a drug works, and then you have to really 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: cut it and nurture it so that the drug becomes 34 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: beneficial to patients one day when it's marketed. 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: Okay, so issus, hell, what tell us what it does? 36 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: In plain English? 37 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: So in plain English, we borrow a not borrow, we 38 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: get healthy donor T cells. We engineer those, genetically modify those, 39 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: and so they're frozen, then shipped to our ten unique 40 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 2: sites in the US and five unique sites here in Australia. 41 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 2: And then when a patient fails off of a lot 42 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 2: of different therapies that exist and they initially work and 43 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: then they fail, they can actually get our drug. And 44 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: what we have seen so far is we've got eighty 45 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: three percent response rates in this very late advanced stage 46 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: diffuse large B cell lymphoma. And we've also seen eighty 47 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 2: two percent response rate in a what's called another car 48 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 2: te naive. It's another product, but it works differently because 49 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: it's highly personalized and it gets the T cells from 50 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: the patients themselves. So if they haven't received those because 51 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 2: they're not approved for certain kinds of lymphoma, we have 52 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: another cohort of patients that's also weeping benefit as well. 53 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: You're doing very well, he llys leaks. I'm following you 54 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,839 Speaker 1: so far, which is saying something in your space, what 55 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: phase are you up to in terms of trials. 56 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 2: So in these kind of therapies that are called chimeric 57 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: antigen receptor T cell, so remember it's a car T 58 00:03:53,440 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 2: and so in these therapeutics they've actually gotten approvals quite early, 59 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: so you run a phase one to show that it's safe. 60 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: But within these car TI therapies, they've shown that there's 61 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: a huge amount of response rate fifty percent or greater, 62 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: and it's in blood cancers. Now that has been quite 63 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: rare in previous therapeutics. So the FDA has been quite 64 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 2: expeditious about marketing these and allowing patients to be able 65 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: to receive these. So most of the time car tes 66 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 2: only had to do a Phase one and then a 67 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 2: phase two or so two phase of trials to get 68 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: them approved, which is amazing. 69 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: And so ways is to sell isa cell up to. 70 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: So we're at that really great spot where we're at 71 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 2: Phase one B so far progress Phase one and then 72 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 2: we're also we've already gone to the FDA to get 73 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: our strategy approved or a check mark by the FDA 74 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: for a registrational study, which is the next phase and 75 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: it could be a Phase two and it could be 76 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 2: or it could be a Phase three, but either or 77 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: a combination of both, but one other study in order 78 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 2: to get it approved. 79 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: Okay, and so when will that work? What's the timeline 80 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: you're hoping for on this? 81 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 2: So I've given what we have seen with our current 82 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 2: patient population, sooner the better, but as you know, the 83 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: regulatory process is very long, laborious. I'm keeping the faith 84 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: as you say, Sean, We're also looking at other options 85 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 2: of increasing our patient pull by going into a niche 86 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: indications of blood cancers, and we're seeing great results there 87 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: and the beauty of those is that the FDA really 88 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: likes niche and rare kinds of cancers because they get 89 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 2: to be the hero to approve those and they allow 90 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: for companies like ours and others to only have a 91 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: small number of patients in order to get approval. So 92 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: we are enrolling those patients in our Phase one B 93 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: study so that we go back to the FDA and say, hey, 94 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: look at these results. You've already okayed our bigger study 95 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: that to market. We think that we have a real 96 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 2: opportunity to make some big changes in this rare cancer 97 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 2: type with this number of patients, and so we are 98 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: hoping for a smaller much of efficient and it's what's 99 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 2: what we call our fast to market strategy. 100 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: Straight up, Okay, you're still running a business, leslie. So 101 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: that's kind of the medical side of it. But you're 102 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: running a business and you have been cutting costs. You 103 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: still you know, you raise money, you spend that money, 104 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: I get a return necessarily for years. How do you 105 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: do that? It's not just you that have to keep 106 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: the fight. It's your staff, it's your investors, it's everyone 107 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: that's right. 108 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: So we are listed on the ASX. We do a 109 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: capital raise, extend out the shares and folks can come 110 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: in on the ride, and then the market also buys 111 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: shares to own a percentage of the company, et cetera. 112 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: So that's how sort of the market works. But what 113 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: we hope one day, and largely what happens to small 114 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: biotech companies like ours, is that they get bought out 115 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 2: by big pharmaceutical companies. So that's sort of the business 116 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 2: that we're in, where big pharmaceutical companies that have big 117 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: pockets and big development strategies and resources to be able 118 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: to run a larger phase two three study so that 119 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: they can market it and then we get royalties, et cetera. 120 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: But it's when they come in to partner with you 121 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: is when things really get explosive. 122 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you are listed, so it's not private equity, 123 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: but like a private equity strategy, a small private equity 124 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: firm comes in, takes an interest in the company, and 125 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: then sells to a large private equity firm. It's not 126 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: that dissimilar to that. Do you have to get bought 127 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: by a larger, farmer company or can you ultimately do 128 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: it on your own? 129 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: You can certainly market the product yourself. It's a laborious role, 130 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: but this is one of the reasons why we are 131 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: coupling our opportunity and really strengthening our strategy for a 132 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 2: marketable product. Because you can imagine, for the first cohort 133 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: that we have what's called the diffuse large B cell 134 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 2: inn foma that have relapsed after a standard of care. 135 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: That product is already pretty much checkmark. Then we have 136 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 2: a road to market that study happens to be quite 137 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: large with a number of patients. We think certainly we 138 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: can win in that space. However, I think the best 139 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 2: way to do this is to have a rare population, 140 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: and the FDA is being very kind to rare and 141 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 2: niche indications, and so we can market the product or 142 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: get well underway before before big pharma takes great interest 143 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 2: in a company like ours. 144 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: Okay, if I'm an investor, and we are not an 145 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: investment podcast, anyone listening that is thinking about emugen, go 146 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: and find some financial advice. We are not saying good 147 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: or bad in any way whatsoever. But if I'm an investor, 148 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: what is it that I should be attracted to IMU gene? 149 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: Particularly given your share price performance over the past twelve months. 150 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: Biotech has had it pretty rough lately. Imugen is no 151 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: exception However, Imagene has dedicated clinical developers who have done 152 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 2: this before. So between all of you know myself and 153 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: my CMO John Bion and Ursula McCurry, we have something 154 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: like fourteen drugs that we've actually shepherd through the development 155 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: and have marketed, so we're a proven team. One. Two, 156 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: we have a product that obviously is working in really 157 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: late stage. So the thing you know about cancer is 158 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: that every time you fell off of a therapy, it 159 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: just gets harder and harder, and the tumor cancer just 160 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: gets unfortunately slew you know, really clever in finding an 161 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: escape round the fact that our patients have third line, 162 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: have felled off of miriads of different therapies, and some 163 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 2: patients have six lines of therapy, and we're seeing a 164 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: response rate complete complete clearance of their cancer. Some would 165 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: partial response, which means more than fifty percent of their 166 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: cancer gone. We know that this is working in a 167 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: certain population, especially in late stage, so you can imagine 168 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: if we bring it up a little bit closer to 169 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: the earlier lines it could possibly work better, especially in 170 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: that rare niche population. We also have another strategy of 171 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: combining with the blockbuster medication and so this not only 172 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 2: improves our registrational pathway, but our commercialization. So we've got 173 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: lots of clever things that we're doing with azer Sell. 174 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 2: And I could think of three things that I just 175 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: mentioned now as a roadmap to either getting partnered or 176 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:39,959 Speaker 2: marketing our drugs. 177 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: Ourselves lazy, good luck with it all. Thank you for 178 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: talking to Fear and Greed. 179 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me as Leslie. 180 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: Chong, CEO and mentioning director of Eugene. I'm Chanelma and 181 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: this is Fearing Grade 182 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: Q and I