WEBVTT - Will the threat of jail time help fix Aged Care?

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah, can you tell me about your dad.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so dad was an engineer, but he had a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of hobbies. He was very sort of engaged with

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<v Speaker 2>the arts. He played piano, he played the trumpet, he

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<v Speaker 2>read a lot, he liked philosophy. He was just a

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<v Speaker 2>sort of brilliant man. And when I was eighteen, he

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<v Speaker 2>was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, and that was a really

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<v Speaker 2>tricky thing for someone who'd got a lot of joy

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<v Speaker 2>out of the mind. And so that was sort of

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning, I suppose of our journey in the age

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<v Speaker 2>care system.

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah Hole and Bat had never thought about age care

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<v Speaker 1>until her father got sick.

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<v Speaker 2>All of a sudden, you're faced with this conundrum of

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<v Speaker 2>what home, and you're not really equipped with many skills

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<v Speaker 2>to work out what makes a good HK home. I

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<v Speaker 2>think Mum and I initially were focused on the wrong things,

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<v Speaker 2>like the aesthetics, whether it felt nice, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>really of course the question that you and I now

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<v Speaker 2>know you need to be asking this more like well,

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<v Speaker 2>how many staff do you have? How qualified are they?

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<v Speaker 2>And then you know it's only in time that you

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<v Speaker 2>start to realize the gaps and when things start to

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<v Speaker 2>go wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a common story, not really putting much thought into

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<v Speaker 1>age care or where a loved one might go until

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<v Speaker 1>someone you know, someone you love, comes into contact with it. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>once in age care, Sarah's father experienced something which is

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<v Speaker 1>also far too common.

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<v Speaker 2>Dad experienced some deliberate abuse from a worker, a personal

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<v Speaker 2>care worker in his home and we were alerted to

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<v Speaker 2>that by a lovely nurse who we'd known for several years,

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<v Speaker 2>who was a whistleblower and who came to us and

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<v Speaker 2>said she'd seen this person belittling Dad, deliberately shutting the

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<v Speaker 2>door on him when he needed a shower, when he

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't clean. I was enraged. I've never been more furious

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<v Speaker 2>about anything in my life, and so as I sort

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<v Speaker 2>of went through the system, my rage just deepened and

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<v Speaker 2>the questions just piled up about well, how is this

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<v Speaker 2>actually happening?

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<v Speaker 1>From Schauce Media, Imbrick Morton and this is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty eighteen, then Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced a

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<v Speaker 1>Royal Commission into age care, which shed light again on

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<v Speaker 1>the astonishing amount of abuse that occurs in residential facilities

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<v Speaker 1>and home care providers around Australia. It's been three years

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<v Speaker 1>since the final report from the Royal Commission was headed down,

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<v Speaker 1>and advocates say very little has improved. The Commission highlighted

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<v Speaker 1>just how difficult it can be to get any accountability

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<v Speaker 1>when someone in care is actually harmed, especially from the

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<v Speaker 1>people who run nursing homes in home care services. The

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<v Speaker 1>federal government is attempting to remedy that with new laws

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<v Speaker 1>that could potentially see directors in management jailed for up

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<v Speaker 1>to five years in particularly egregious cases. Today, Poet and

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<v Speaker 1>Age Care get Sarah Holan bat on whether the government's

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<v Speaker 1>new laws will actually be enough to turn around the

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<v Speaker 1>disaster that is our age care system. That's coming up.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday, July eleven. Sarah, after your father's experience, you

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<v Speaker 1>were deeply involved in advocating around the Royal Commission into

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<v Speaker 1>age care and made a submission to it. What was

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<v Speaker 1>in your submission?

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<v Speaker 2>My submission? I suppose the focus of it was that

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<v Speaker 2>I felt strongly that if someone liked myself, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>relatively educated, capable of understanding, you know, capable of making complaints,

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<v Speaker 2>capable of pursuing issues, wasn't getting a good outcome from

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<v Speaker 2>that process? Then something was really deeply broken with the

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<v Speaker 2>complaints process. As I pushed and pushed and pushed to

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<v Speaker 2>try and get an outcome, I couldn't get anyone to

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<v Speaker 2>go and inspect the home. No one was interested. The

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<v Speaker 2>care home manager was only interested in identifying the whistleblower,

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<v Speaker 2>had no interest in dealing with the person involved. So

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, if I was unable to get a reasonable

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<v Speaker 2>outcome for my father, which for me would have just

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<v Speaker 2>been getting this person taken out of the age care workforce,

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<v Speaker 2>if I was unable to get any sort of satisfactory

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<v Speaker 2>outcome at all, there was no outcome. That was the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of impetus for my submission to the Royal Commission.

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<v Speaker 2>It was around the inadequate regulation of age care, the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that there was really no one, you know, advocating

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<v Speaker 2>on behalf of these really vulnerable people who have cognitive issues,

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<v Speaker 2>physical issues. So that's been the passion of mine, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>is to see greater protections for older people's human rights

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<v Speaker 2>come through out of the Royal Commission, and to see

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<v Speaker 2>some professionalization of that personal care workforce.

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<v Speaker 1>And having sat through all of the many of them

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<v Speaker 1>hearing through the Age Care or Commission and then thin

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<v Speaker 1>the final report read those recommendations. What stood out to

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<v Speaker 1>you in that final document as being substantial recommendations and

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<v Speaker 1>can you just walk us through some of those.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to afternoon everyone, I'm here to release the

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<v Speaker 2>raw Commission in agepre quality and safety. This is the

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<v Speaker 2>worst of many problems. I think there were lots of positives.

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<v Speaker 2>There's certain aspects around staffing and around qualifications that have

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<v Speaker 2>been proposed to have been good.

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<v Speaker 3>The report recommends a registered nurse to be on duty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty four hours a day, more nurses giving hands on care,

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<v Speaker 3>mandatory training for personal care workers, and most significantly, a

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<v Speaker 3>Medicare style levy to fund the massive short form in

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<v Speaker 3>aged care funding.

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<v Speaker 2>I do think that the introduction of guardrails around staffing

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<v Speaker 2>numbers was important. I do think that so minimum standard

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<v Speaker 2>of qualification to ensure a level of familiarity, say with

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<v Speaker 2>working with people with dementia, would be very, very helpful.

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<v Speaker 4>The Royal Commission has recommended an urgent review of the

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<v Speaker 4>country's specialist dementia care units to ensure their up to scratch.

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<v Speaker 4>It also says there should be more support for people

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<v Speaker 4>living with dementia, their cares and families. Once a diagnosis

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<v Speaker 4>is made.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought the Commission's recommendations around sort of penalties could

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<v Speaker 2>have been stronger, And there were some disappointments in the

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<v Speaker 2>final report in that there were a lot of split recommendations.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that really diluted the power of the final report.

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<v Speaker 2>There were split recommendations around the funding of the system

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<v Speaker 2>and around the regulation of the system, and both of

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<v Speaker 2>those I think the Commission really should have tried its

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<v Speaker 2>hardest to speak in one voice about that, because it's

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<v Speaker 2>sort of given government. Now we've had two governments who've

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<v Speaker 2>had a responding to this and still no act. It's

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<v Speaker 2>given government a little bit of an out to go

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<v Speaker 2>with the easier path.

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<v Speaker 1>That was going to be my next question, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>because it did recommend it an entirely new Age Care

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<v Speaker 1>Act to replace the one from nineteen ninety seven that

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<v Speaker 1>John Howard implemented, but of course we didn't know exactly

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<v Speaker 1>what that Act was going to look like. And given

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<v Speaker 1>everything else that was in that report, did you have

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<v Speaker 1>any kind of hope that things might change for the

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<v Speaker 1>better in age care after that?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I did, and I think the new Act,

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<v Speaker 2>even if it's not perfect, and of course you still

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<v Speaker 2>want to advocate for it to be perfect, because I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>let's be real, we'll all be touched by this system

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<v Speaker 2>in one way or the other, whether it's us, our parents.

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<v Speaker 2>Whatever we do in this Act, we'll see my mother

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<v Speaker 2>through her journey if she ever needs age care, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, after Dad's experience, I hope she doesn't have

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<v Speaker 2>to go into residential age care. But realistically, it's taken

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<v Speaker 2>twenty plus years to get a replacement act after Howard's Act.

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<v Speaker 2>That seems to be roughly the time frame to make

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<v Speaker 2>major changes. So whatever we lock in here now we're

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<v Speaker 2>sort of stuck with.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, how the government wants to hold bad

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<v Speaker 1>providers accountable with criminal penalties and the risk of those

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<v Speaker 1>proposals being warded down. Sarah, it's now been three years

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<v Speaker 1>since the Royal Commission handed down what was quite a

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<v Speaker 1>harrowing expose into age care in Australia. In that time,

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<v Speaker 1>what has actually changed, Well, that's a good question, Rick.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, one of the big wins was pay rises

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<v Speaker 2>for workers, although that's been sort of delayed and stepped

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<v Speaker 2>out in its implementation. Another win was the introduction of

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<v Speaker 2>mandatory care minutes, which again has been stepped out and

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<v Speaker 2>there's a big caveat with that care minutes when you

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<v Speaker 2>look at the actual numbers that are being reported, and

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<v Speaker 2>you can see that through my aged Care through the

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<v Speaker 2>star rating reportings, very few homes are meeting the required standard.

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<v Speaker 2>And then when you look at the serious incident reporting scheme,

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<v Speaker 2>you see that providers are sort of chronically underestimating the

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<v Speaker 2>impacts of serious incidents such as physical altercations, unlawful sexual conduct,

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<v Speaker 2>unexplained absence from the service, which is when a resident

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<v Speaker 2>has been allowed to leave the premises unsupervised, really major issues.

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<v Speaker 2>Providers are chronically underestimating the psychological and physical impact on

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<v Speaker 2>age care residents. So in terms of is the situation

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<v Speaker 2>actually better for an older person in an age care

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<v Speaker 2>home that it was three years ago, I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 2>that there are really any profound indicators saying yes. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>yet to see any statistics showing that, say, malnutrition, dehydration,

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<v Speaker 2>rates of chemical and physical restraint. We don't have any

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<v Speaker 2>indication as yet. It depends on whether you're viewing it

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<v Speaker 2>from a sort of legislative viewpoint, which things seem to

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<v Speaker 2>be happening, or whether you're viewing it from the perspective

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<v Speaker 2>of a person in residential age care or in home

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<v Speaker 2>care has their reality improved. I don't think that we

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<v Speaker 2>have any data to support that.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the Government's new Age Care Act is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be tabled in Parliament soon. What does their proposed

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<v Speaker 1>new act actually look like and what have you made

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<v Speaker 1>of it?

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<v Speaker 2>I think there are aspects of it that are positive,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think one of the strongest things that I

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<v Speaker 2>feel most passionate about is the proposed introduction of criminal penalties.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a sector that really does need some consequences.

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<v Speaker 2>It's had there been no consequences of providers who failed

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<v Speaker 2>and failed and failed, and you know that means lots

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<v Speaker 2>of older people and their families going through heartbreak. I

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<v Speaker 2>do think that will be positive, but I do have

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<v Speaker 2>concerns that it replicates some of the faults of previous legislation.

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<v Speaker 2>The Government is touting this as a human rights based act,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, the statement of rights that's in the

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<v Speaker 2>draft legislation it's about to be tabled to Parliament are

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<v Speaker 2>not enforceable. There is no obligation on providers now in

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<v Speaker 2>the draft legislation to provide high quality care, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was a strong recommendation from advocates, from people like me,

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<v Speaker 2>from people in the workforce, from people working at the

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<v Speaker 2>coal face, and instead what we've got in the current

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<v Speaker 2>kind of version of that now there's just going to

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<v Speaker 2>be a duty imposed on providers to not basically actively

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<v Speaker 2>harm older people or put them at risk of grave

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<v Speaker 2>injury or illness or harm. And you know, in an

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<v Speaker 2>age care home you have a term called quote unquote

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<v Speaker 2>rough handling, which anywhere else means assault. That's where you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in order to get an older person to do what

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<v Speaker 2>you want, you drag them by the wrist and end

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<v Speaker 2>up with a giant bruise and you know, or they

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<v Speaker 2>end up with a dislocated shoulder or something like that

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<v Speaker 2>that is wall papered with this term rough handling. So,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's kind of astonishing that we could say

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<v Speaker 2>it is a rights based piece of legislation, yet the

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<v Speaker 2>rights within it are not enforceable.

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<v Speaker 1>What is that one of those areas that've gone further

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<v Speaker 1>in is you mentioned in the criminal penalties, particularly for

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<v Speaker 1>directors of age care providers? Right?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the Royal Commission recommended that there should be

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<v Speaker 2>the statutory duty and post to provide high quality care.

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<v Speaker 2>If that duty was not upheld. The Royal Commission recommended

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<v Speaker 2>that civil penalties should apply, fines should apply, So the

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<v Speaker 2>government has sort of watered this down from an emphasis

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<v Speaker 2>on higher quality and safe care, so that the duty

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<v Speaker 2>that the government's proposing in the new legislation is that

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<v Speaker 2>there is a duty to take quote reasonable steps to

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<v Speaker 2>avoid their actions adversely affecting the health and safety of

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<v Speaker 2>persons in their care. But what the government is proposing

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<v Speaker 2>goes beyond the Royal Commission in that they're proposing there

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<v Speaker 2>should be civil penalties but also criminal penalties in the

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<v Speaker 2>very worst cases of up to five years jail. Effectively,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a serious case that would warrant jail only in

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<v Speaker 2>cases where a provider's breach has involved significant failures, systemic

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<v Speaker 2>patterns of conduct, especially when there's a death, serious injury

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<v Speaker 2>or illness, or reckless conduct involved. And then there's a

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<v Speaker 2>loophole though that says providers and responsible persons won't be

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<v Speaker 2>held responsible if they have a reasonable excuse for causing

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<v Speaker 2>the death of an older person, then you could be

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<v Speaker 2>subjected to five years of jail. You know, if you

0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.000
<v Speaker 2>ask the average person in a pub, does this seem okay?

0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Should the people who are responsible for this neglect to

0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.880
<v Speaker 2>go to jail. I think you'd struggle to find someone

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.440
<v Speaker 2>who would say no. So I think it does meet

0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:57.560
<v Speaker 2>community expectations. It certainly meets, you know, advocates expectations that

0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:01.199
<v Speaker 2>there should be some criminal provisions somewhere in the system

0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.000
<v Speaker 2>so that in the very worst instances there is a

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.040
<v Speaker 2>lever to punish these individuals. But yeah, you know, the

0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.560
<v Speaker 2>lobby doesn't want it. Providers don't want it, they don't

0:14:10.559 --> 0:14:14.480
<v Speaker 2>want any more liability, and the Opposition spokesperson and Rustin

0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:16.800
<v Speaker 2>has also come out against this as well.

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.320
<v Speaker 5>There but if we continue to put the kind of

0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.040
<v Speaker 5>pressure that we are on the sector by making all

0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.680
<v Speaker 5>of these demands, like bringing forward the recommendations of the

0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.320
<v Speaker 5>Royal Commission, knowing that they can't be delivered, it just

0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.680
<v Speaker 5>continues to put the negative pressure on We know that they're.

0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.640
<v Speaker 2>The lobby's talking point on this is just beyond face,

0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:40.400
<v Speaker 2>which is that it might discourage good people from directing

0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:45.000
<v Speaker 2>an age care home rather than eliminate the very few

0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:48.640
<v Speaker 2>but horrific directors. And there are some, there are some

0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.600
<v Speaker 2>people who have gone into age care to make a buck.

0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:54.520
<v Speaker 2>It's the same old talking points that we've had the

0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.320
<v Speaker 2>entire time, which is just that providers have too much

0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:00.720
<v Speaker 2>regulation already, too much paperwork, too much red and what

0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.160
<v Speaker 2>they really would like is just to be left alone

0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.200
<v Speaker 2>to their own devices with more money.

0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 1>I'm really interested in the lobby itself, right, because they've

0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:15.760
<v Speaker 1>really been the only voice in age care policy full stop.

0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.200
<v Speaker 1>The lobby is a provider lobby, and they have a

0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:20.840
<v Speaker 1>very big voice.

0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 2>I think, so, Rick, And I think, you know, there's

0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:26.560
<v Speaker 2>an element of regulatory capture here, I think where people

0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.520
<v Speaker 2>are rotating out of either government into aged care or

0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 2>out of age care into regulation, you know. But I

0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.160
<v Speaker 2>think the worry is that, you know, it's a very loud,

0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.640
<v Speaker 2>very powerful voice, you know, the aged care lobby. They're

0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.960
<v Speaker 2>very good at sort of collopting useful individuals in and

0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:48.040
<v Speaker 2>out of government to their cause. Really, it's so important

0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:52.960
<v Speaker 2>that the perspectives of older people are vociferously represented, because,

0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.680
<v Speaker 2>of course, in aged care, those people aren't able to

0:15:56.720 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 2>represent themselves because of the very nature of their vulnerability

0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.240
<v Speaker 2>in certain ways. So yeah, I despair a little bit

0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.080
<v Speaker 2>at the sort of influence that the age care lobby

0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.000
<v Speaker 2>has had. I think it has argued on the side

0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:18.960
<v Speaker 2>of deregulation, inevitably stood in the way of financial transparency,

0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:26.240
<v Speaker 2>inevitably raised concerns about any moves to create guardrails around

0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.440
<v Speaker 2>staffing levels or professionalization of the workforce. All of these

0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:33.240
<v Speaker 2>things have been resisted. So in a way, it's a

0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:37.200
<v Speaker 2>sector that's sort of been dragged kicking and screaming to

0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:38.040
<v Speaker 2>these changes.

0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately for them, they sent the poet Sarah Hall of

0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 1>that to advocate for people in the sector, which is

0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 1>a very powerful enemy to have. I think, Sarah Holmbat,

0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.400
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate

0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:53.440
<v Speaker 1>your advocacy and your insight on this issue.

0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.200
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Rick, and it's a pleasure to chat to you.

0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.880
<v Speaker 2>I also have appreciated for many, many years your work

0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:00.120
<v Speaker 2>at reporting on this issue, so it's been a joy.

0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.679
<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, a study published in the

0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.679
<v Speaker 1>Lancet Medical Journal has estimated the true death toll of

0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Israel's ongoing offensive in Gaza could be one hundred and

0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:28.080
<v Speaker 1>eighty six thousand people. According to Gaza's Ministry of Health,

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.119
<v Speaker 1>more than thirty eight thousand Palestinians have been killed, but

0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.920
<v Speaker 1>the study, based on methodology applied by public health scientists,

0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.919
<v Speaker 1>says the official toll doesn't take into account the dead

0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.720
<v Speaker 1>buried under rubble or indirect death due to destruction, disease

0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:47.280
<v Speaker 1>and the absence of medical care. And advocates have warned

0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.879
<v Speaker 1>that age verification for young people on social media is

0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.280
<v Speaker 1>a trap by tech companies to avoid regulation in other

0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:57.200
<v Speaker 1>areas being imposed on their platforms. A parliamentary inquiry into

0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.720
<v Speaker 1>the impact of social media has heard that age restrictions

0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.480
<v Speaker 1>on Star social media platforms would not make the sites

0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.160
<v Speaker 1>ay safer and government should instead be looking at other

0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:10.520
<v Speaker 1>safety standards that could be implemented. That's awful today. I'm Rickporton.

0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.960
<v Speaker 1>This is seven am. See you tomorrow.