Speaker 1: Welcome to the mentor. I'm Mark Boris Sam Kelly. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the Mentor.
Speaker 2: Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: You are the managing partner of Hello Social.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll go there right, Yes, yes, very much.
Speaker 1: So what does Hello Social cold? Just give me an outline?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, we've been a social media marketing agency around
Speaker 3: for sort of twelve years. We're actually going through a
Speaker 3: name change at the moment, changing our name to Hello
Speaker 3: to sort of better reflect what we are doing these days.
Speaker 3: I think, as you would know, and most people have
Speaker 3: been on social for a long time. Social has evolved,
Speaker 3: and I guess what it takes to be a leading
Speaker 3: social media marketing agency now, I guess servicing the world's
Speaker 3: best brands is more than just running their social media channel.
Speaker 3: So we are a full service, integrated agency that does
Speaker 3: everything from strategy to production, producing content from stuff that's
Speaker 3: now going on sort of connected TV and TV all
Speaker 3: the way down to Instagram grids. We've got a sort
Speaker 3: of a media buying marketing science division as well that
Speaker 3: look at the distribution and measurement of all sorts of
Speaker 3: marketing and then PR so PR and I traditional media
Speaker 3: has collided with social media now where they are much
Speaker 3: of a muchness in terms of you know, we're trying
Speaker 3: to drive fame and talkability. So something's going to blow
Speaker 3: up on social it's probably also going to blow up
Speaker 3: in the media as well. So there's been a really
Speaker 3: nice sort of alignment there along with the rise of
Speaker 3: influencers and talent. So we've got a sort of a
Speaker 3: specialist division that works in there. So all in all,
Speaker 3: we've been geared up to master and win, I guess
Speaker 3: in the digital era.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, you do have some big name clients,
Speaker 1: very big name clients, and I'm not going to go
Speaker 1: through them right now, but obviously big organizations need a
Speaker 1: full service. I wouldn't mind just breaking a few of
Speaker 1: those down because you know, a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: understand what PR is today. And it was interesting you said,
Speaker 1: PR not maybe not colliding, but can collide with lots
Speaker 1: of different things. But your PR is not necessarily around
Speaker 1: corporate messaging. You know, a lot of PR people just
Speaker 1: assume that it's about protecting the brand, you know, sanitizing
Speaker 1: the message. In other words, Well, we can't say that
Speaker 1: because we might upset them, And we can't say that
Speaker 1: because it might upset then prs actually covers a lot
Speaker 1: more stuff, So maybe you could just explain the start
Speaker 1: with PR if I, for example, only yesterday before I
Speaker 1: put out a note saying that I've interviewed the Prime
Speaker 1: Minister and the leader of the opposition, and I put
Speaker 1: a little note out to say I'm not taking sites
Speaker 1: because I didn't want to be in that category because
Speaker 1: it could be a PR disaster for me, because no
Speaker 1: matter what I do, I'm going to piss someone off.
Speaker 1: Because you know, let's assume fifty percent of population votes
Speaker 1: one way, fift percent population votes the other way, and
Speaker 1: if I just looked at my own audience, you know,
Speaker 1: be fair to say fifty percent, you're going to go
Speaker 1: one with others, So I can't look like I prefer anyone.
Speaker 1: So from a PR point of view, it's crudely from
Speaker 1: what I'm looking at, from what we did, just crude
Speaker 1: PR point of view, I thought i'd better put out
Speaker 1: a statement first that said I'm just here to bring
Speaker 1: their story. But it has blown up because we're getting
Speaker 1: so much feedback, and because I've allowed someone to say, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, Peter Dutton's you know, dance pants. As soon
Speaker 1: as they say that, other people kind of say you've
Speaker 1: got to be joking and it's created a few rare
Speaker 1: So no matter what you're messaging is you're always going
Speaker 1: to make half happy and half could be very unhappy.
Speaker 1: In terms of digital marketing or you know, digital presence
Speaker 1: of the brands that you represent, how important is it
Speaker 1: to make sure that you get the PR the PR
Speaker 1: part part right before we actually launch.
Speaker 3: Oh look, it's absolutely critical, and you've hit the nail
Speaker 3: on the head in terms of identifying.
Speaker 2: There's two sides to it.
Speaker 3: One is getting the message in correct, and there's a
Speaker 3: lot of time and investment and brains spent on massaging
Speaker 3: the message. And then the next thing is how you
Speaker 3: can sort of take that message and I guess distribute
Speaker 3: it in a.
Speaker 2: Way that it is going to travel.
Speaker 3: One of the benefits of social media and PR is
Speaker 3: that you can have a message travel where others will
Speaker 3: pick it up and take it for you. So there's
Speaker 3: a number of benefits that people often trust it if
Speaker 3: it's coming from a I guess an independent media source
Speaker 3: or a word of mouth from someone they trust like
Speaker 3: a friend. If they're sharing it as opposed to the
Speaker 3: brand themselves paying an ad for you to see that message.
Speaker 3: So it's a potent I guess formula in terms of
Speaker 3: I guess having impact and driving resonance and understanding of
Speaker 3: what you're trying to get out there. But at the
Speaker 3: same time, it's a high risk environment in that if
Speaker 3: your message is picked up and construed or taken the
Speaker 3: wrong way, it can also have an adverse effect. So yeah, look,
Speaker 3: my advice here is you need to spend a lot
Speaker 3: of time before you go and try and pull off
Speaker 3: a stunt or a viral moment, or or kickstart the
Speaker 3: furor which often in some cases on social is led
Speaker 3: through extremism in terms of making sure that that message
Speaker 3: has been I guess looked at and hacked apart from
Speaker 3: all the different angles to make sure we feel like
Speaker 3: it's still going to work in the best interests of
Speaker 3: the brand.
Speaker 1: So one time, Richie bro I had an opportunity once
Speaker 1: to sit next to Richard Brandson.
Speaker 3: This is.
Speaker 1: Pre about ninety might might have been around the time
Speaker 1: of the Virgin sort of kicked off in Australia. That's
Speaker 1: after Ansett got no trouble. I mean anyway, I can't
Speaker 1: remember exactly the period, but I was sitting on it
Speaker 1: was a Virgin flight. I happened to be sitting in
Speaker 1: business class and he was here in Austraina. He was
Speaker 1: sitting next to me. So the stuff is, I'm going
Speaker 1: to take advantage of this, And I started talking about
Speaker 1: business names of businesses, because you know, like the decoy
Speaker 1: yourself Virgin, especially back then, it was a pretty full
Speaker 1: on thing, you know, like that's there's a pr disaster
Speaker 1: hanging in there. There was no social media at the time,
Speaker 1: but there was a potential powers of us hanging in there.
Speaker 1: And he already said to me, said he said brand names,
Speaker 1: He said, must have cut through. He said, you're better
Speaker 1: off making fifty percent of the population happy at the
Speaker 1: risk of making the other fifty percent unhappy. Then you
Speaker 1: are having a name that doesn't have an effect whatsoever.
Speaker 1: So at least you're fifty percent of people on side.
Speaker 1: He said, you're never going to get it the way
Speaker 1: you want it. And I thought that was quite interesting.
Speaker 1: And actually, and he said some other things to me,
Speaker 1: and like your view on these things. He said some
Speaker 1: other things to me which are really interesting too. He said,
Speaker 1: when you pick the word as opposed to the word
Speaker 1: having an image attached to it, that's one way you
Speaker 1: might pick the word virgin has an image at that
Speaker 1: stage attached to it. Virgins actually has an image of
Speaker 1: these days so much. But he said the letters, the
Speaker 1: sound of the letters in the word are really important.
Speaker 1: He said, virg is a very strong sound Vergon. He said,
Speaker 1: it's easier for our brain, and maybe the science is
Speaker 1: not as evolved then as it is today about how
Speaker 1: our brain works. But he said, your brain will remember
Speaker 1: that word that sound more so than the word and
Speaker 1: the image. It doesn't necessarily remember the image, only members
Speaker 1: of the sound as well. And off the back of that,
Speaker 1: I came with the name Wizard because it had similar
Speaker 1: sounding sounds. Didn't have the same image as vergiin of course,
Speaker 1: but it does have his own image, and I decided
Speaker 1: basically what he advised me. We didn't basically what he
Speaker 1: told me. It doesn't matter if you his people off
Speaker 1: people think how ridiculous that it is, And people did think
Speaker 1: it was ridiculous because in those days a name like
Speaker 1: wizard lending money that people say, well, what the hell
Speaker 1: is going on here? Like it's acceptable now, but back
Speaker 1: then and the around that that territory is sort of
Speaker 1: where you guys have expertise, and you know, I was
Speaker 1: just lucky. I liked it because they had one conversation
Speaker 1: with one person acted on it. But now is much
Speaker 1: more scientific. But do those concepts that Brandson sort of
Speaker 1: told me back twenty more than twenty years ago, now,
Speaker 1: do they still apply in terms of your initial thinking
Speaker 1: around brand names, brand brand presence.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's an interesting one and there's two very different schools
Speaker 3: of thought. I think, you know, we are all four
Speaker 3: brands being bold and salient and memorable and all these
Speaker 3: sorts of things. But I think that takes time, investment,
Speaker 3: and money. And you hear about the great ones that
Speaker 3: have a lot of character in their name, you know,
Speaker 3: and one of them is Isuba.
Speaker 1: What was that.
Speaker 3: On the other on the other hand, for other small businesses,
Speaker 3: there's some weird, wacky names out there now. Are people
Speaker 3: trying to be salient and weird or something that means
Speaker 3: something to them? And I think, you know, that is
Speaker 3: a great thing. But I said, the thing I would
Speaker 3: offset with that is it's also nice to say what
Speaker 3: it is on the tin. You know, we are confronted
Speaker 3: with eleven thousand messages a day and for someone to
Speaker 3: stop and say Okay, I've seen wizard. It then takes
Speaker 3: another step for them to figure out what is that
Speaker 3: and how can they help me. So again, when we
Speaker 3: started Hello Social back in the day, and this was Max,
Speaker 3: my business partner who actually started the business. He's very
Speaker 3: literal because he speaks to things like Google search and rankings,
Speaker 3: and so when people look for a social media agency,
Speaker 3: they type in the word social. So by having that
Speaker 3: in the name and they're knowing how our customers searched
Speaker 3: and found us, that was more of a force for
Speaker 3: us at the start. And then obviously we've then built
Speaker 3: out the brand and brand and the personality over time
Speaker 3: through things like colors and marketing tactics. So I do
Speaker 3: think it's important to be memorable and salient and different
Speaker 3: and even weird. We're a big fan of being weird,
Speaker 3: especially disruptive to an industry. But as long as very
Speaker 3: quickly you can articulate how you can help an individual.
Speaker 1: It's fair you're saying what the message is is that
Speaker 1: about when you say how you can help an individual?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you do need to ensure that. Let's
Speaker 3: say you have a slightly off center brand name that
Speaker 3: very quickly when you were communicating in an ad or
Speaker 3: whether it's a byline on a website. The very next
Speaker 3: thing after the crazy name is what you do?
Speaker 1: What you do? So hello social it's pretty ovious.
Speaker 3: Correct, So that one's probably not that weird. We went
Speaker 3: the other way around. We went literally in the name,
Speaker 3: and then we showed up in a weird way. For instance,
Speaker 3: in our formative years, we had a meme that we
Speaker 3: put out every Wednesday, a marketing meme, and it was
Speaker 3: basically taking something was culturally relevant and applying you know,
Speaker 3: marketing jokes and overlay into that culturally relevant meme.
Speaker 2: We put a lot of money.
Speaker 1: Give me an example, just I don't quite understand that.
Speaker 3: So let's say that we find something that's I guess
Speaker 3: could be could be trending at the moment. It could be,
Speaker 3: you know, some sort of pop culture type thing. It
Speaker 3: could be, you know, a dance move that someone in
Speaker 3: the NFL's just done after they've scored a try. And
Speaker 3: this thing is you know, internet fandom, pop culture goes
Speaker 3: viral and as a brand where we'd jump on that.
Speaker 3: And maybe let's say it was an NFL player dancing
Speaker 3: after or doing a backflip off the I just scored
Speaker 3: a touchdown that went viral. We'd say, feels after you've
Speaker 3: just signed a new client, right, and that would be
Speaker 3: our meme. So I was very relatable to people within
Speaker 3: our industry, and then from there we would sort of
Speaker 3: retarget them. So you either can go literal with a
Speaker 3: name and then weird with your sort of tactics, or
Speaker 3: flip it and have a sort of really out there name,
Speaker 3: but then you have to be quite sort of down
Speaker 3: the barrel with the information that comes next in terms
Speaker 3: of articulating, well, what does what does wizard?
Speaker 2: What does wizard do?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, then that was a big issue for us
Speaker 1: because because initially no one knew what we did, and
Speaker 1: probably the biggest and I actually think today it's much
Speaker 1: more complicated to run brands and build a brand name
Speaker 1: and distributed the name out there. It's much harder than
Speaker 1: it was back then because then it was pretty simple.
Speaker 1: You know, my case, you had a name, then I
Speaker 1: put you know, we had a strap line, which we
Speaker 1: use an agency to help us work out. Jack single
Speaker 1: and did it for me. I don't know, if you
Speaker 1: know Jack, he's ran your age, so maybe bet all
Speaker 1: than you Jack, I don't know. I can't tell. I
Speaker 1: can't tell the old job but not John, but not
Speaker 1: John seeing Jack and I need to get some botox
Speaker 1: now your son Jack, and and and So it was
Speaker 1: just a strap line because and a lot of people
Speaker 1: listening this would be saying brand names. You know, how
Speaker 1: do I market? Because most people got no idea. It's
Speaker 1: pretty difficult, it's quite stressful and cress a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 1: But the name Wizard Home Loans. And then put it
Speaker 1: on the bottom. We will call Wizard Home Loans. Kerry
Speaker 1: actually Kerry Peat. Tom had dropped the name Homelans. He said,
Speaker 1: because people hate the fact that we don't want to
Speaker 1: borrow money from me. I don't want you, I don't
Speaker 1: want to know you money for the next thirty years.
Speaker 1: He said, just go with the wizard. So he actually
Speaker 1: taught me to drop in the name. But what we
Speaker 1: did put down on the bottom, we put down on
Speaker 1: a strap line, said no judgments, just home loans. That's
Speaker 1: what Jack came up with. But we our platforms were
Speaker 1: easy those days, as the newspaper, television, radio, and we spent,
Speaker 1: as you said, we spend a fortune advertising like it
Speaker 1: was full on every day, you know, either on either
Speaker 1: on one of three or three and one particular time.
Speaker 1: Now we've got so many platforms that we can operate
Speaker 1: and everything becomes confusing which one should I go for?
Speaker 1: And I would like to talk to you a little
Speaker 1: bit later about things like LinkedIn and TikTok and Instagram
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. And there's probably other platforms now
Speaker 1: that I've never even heard of. But I do want
Speaker 1: to wear platforms at a moment. But just in terms
Speaker 1: of the difficult, the degree of difficult, and you've been
Speaker 1: doing this for a long time now that the degree of difficulty,
Speaker 1: would you say it's much harder today, apart from the
Speaker 1: fact that markets are crowded, much harder than today, not
Speaker 1: in relation to Hello Social, but in relation to brands
Speaker 1: that you look guys look after now, isn't much harder
Speaker 1: today to build and launch a new brand compared to say,
Speaker 1: what it was fifteen years ago challenging.
Speaker 3: It's interesting the practice of it is. It's very easy
Speaker 3: to launch a brand today.
Speaker 2: Anyone can do it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: You go and register of business, you get a logo
Speaker 3: done online on some sort of tool yourself, and start
Speaker 3: on Instagram and you are off.
Speaker 1: I should have said successfully.
Speaker 3: That changes things, So yes, I do. I just think
Speaker 3: it's far more complex in terms of there are so
Speaker 3: many more ways to do it now.
Speaker 2: And I often.
Speaker 3: Talk about this as you get advice and everyone has
Speaker 3: an idea in a way to help you. Everyone's trying
Speaker 3: to sell you something as a brand, say this is
Speaker 3: the answer, radio is the answer, a billboard, TV, social media.
Speaker 2: And they're all right, but you can't just get it right.
Speaker 2: You have to get it really bloody right.
Speaker 1: So away you wish your money.
Speaker 2: You waste your money.
Speaker 3: So for a small business, yeah, I think to take
Speaker 3: off and be successful these days is it's harder than ever.
Speaker 1: So leck do you guys have a media agency at
Speaker 1: buying agency?
Speaker 2: Yes, yep.
Speaker 1: So if you're trying to run a brand and you
Speaker 1: say you want to spend one hundred thousand dollars on
Speaker 1: advertising for the next three months, maybe you could explain
Speaker 1: to people how digital media agency works as opposed to
Speaker 1: advertising agency works. What's the what are the how do
Speaker 1: the two work? Because by the way, when I did
Speaker 1: use old John Singleton, I use a mod called Singleton
Speaker 1: ogul v maya. Yes, back in the early early days, Yes,
Speaker 1: they had a buyer's agents buyer agency there too, So
Speaker 1: I would they would create the ad for me, conceive
Speaker 1: the ad, they would produce the ad. Usually the production
Speaker 1: of the ad costs more than the conception of the ad.
Speaker 1: Well that's a problem, yeah, and which is used annoy
Speaker 1: the crap out of me, and then they would place
Speaker 1: the ad and and fact I used And I never
Speaker 1: knew how this stuff worked. But I had one agent
Speaker 1: to do everything for me, which is sort of where
Speaker 1: things are today, but much more complex. But could you
Speaker 1: explain how those things work, those things interact, because you
Speaker 1: can't go along Chong Ryan and just say I want
Speaker 1: to book fifty spots on the news channel my News
Speaker 1: a Sunday night for thirty seconds. If they don't lay
Speaker 1: it do that.
Speaker 2: No, And look it's a really interesting one.
Speaker 3: Back in terms of the budget splits, we first talk
Speaker 3: about there's a standardized formula now across I guess all
Speaker 3: marketers in terms of you should have twenty five percent
Speaker 3: of your budget for a campaign what we call non working,
Speaker 3: which is the making of the artwork and the creative
Speaker 3: and then the other seventy five percent needs to be
Speaker 3: into the reach and the media and the buy Otherwise
Speaker 3: you're wasting your money making something that not a lot
Speaker 3: of people are going to see. So we see a
Speaker 3: lot of that sort of formula, and that's a recommendation
Speaker 3: to everyone listening.
Speaker 1: Is that an industry standard, Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's fairly industry standard these days.
Speaker 3: There's definitely a cap of don't let your agency try
Speaker 3: and take too much in terms of for them to
Speaker 3: make the creative.
Speaker 1: Does it conclude the production, Yeah, absolutely, like producing the ad, yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's talent.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the pitfalls that I
Speaker 3: see even small businesses going into in their social media
Speaker 3: is they spend all their money making the post, but
Speaker 3: they've got a thousand followers and no one sees it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: So I think that into play is something that's really
Speaker 3: really important. But I think in terms of the actual
Speaker 3: media buy and how that world works, obviously digital media
Speaker 3: is far more accessible and easier to buy. You know,
Speaker 3: as you said before, the major traditional platforms are far
Speaker 3: more gated and you need to a special license to
Speaker 3: be on there and buy things, which is some of
Speaker 3: the challenges. While we're seeing traditional media sort of start
Speaker 3: to cripple and fall away just because the barrier to
Speaker 3: entry and the accessibility and the ease of buying on
Speaker 3: something like Meta is there you know, there actually is
Speaker 3: a step by step way where you know a person
Speaker 3: that is, you know, smart enough to start a business
Speaker 3: could actually go in there and do it themselves. And
Speaker 3: that's the brave new world we're in now, where you know,
Speaker 3: even AI can go and run these ads for you.
Speaker 3: But I think the main thing I'd sort of share
Speaker 3: before you even get to any of these points is,
Speaker 3: and it's my biggest takeaway for today, is understanding your customer.
Speaker 2: Who are they, how do they buy, and how do
Speaker 2: they make decisions?
Speaker 1: And where are they?
Speaker 3: And we'll where and where are they? And that and
Speaker 3: that point there should tell you where you should be.
Speaker 3: So again, when we use when we got to start
Speaker 3: a campaign or any form of marketing, the first step
Speaker 3: is understanding your customer, because for instance, that will really
Speaker 3: tell you what you should be saying and where you
Speaker 3: should be and how you convince them. For instance, I
Speaker 3: had a financial planner with us at the cricket the
Speaker 3: other day and he goes, I need to use you guys,
Speaker 3: and I said, no, you don't. You don't, I said,
Speaker 3: when it comes to getting a financial planner, how would
Speaker 3: you make a decision to pick one, and he said, oh,
Speaker 3: you'd probably get a referral from your accountant, or you'd
Speaker 3: get a referral from someone you trust. So I said,
Speaker 3: it's not going to be from a TV ad, a
Speaker 3: bus stop or a billboard, is it. So you need
Speaker 3: to go and work your referral partners, and you need
Speaker 3: to go and work your existing clients, try and get
Speaker 3: referrals and get them to bring a friend to an
Speaker 3: event or an experience. So the fundamentals of marketing and
Speaker 3: media buying or anything that comes thereafter is actually around
Speaker 3: who are you going after and how do they make
Speaker 3: a decision to buy that specific service or product like that?
Speaker 1: So can I can we just unpick that a little
Speaker 1: bit because particularly that point amte about financial plane. This
Speaker 1: is interesting. The other day I was thinking to myself,
Speaker 1: I was listening to something on traditional radio to GB
Speaker 1: in fact, and when I heard a guy get on
Speaker 1: there there's two guys on the Saturn Afternoon. I like,
Speaker 1: they call the two Murrays. They're just if I've got
Speaker 1: nothing to do and I'm driving, put the two Murrays
Speaker 1: on that. I don't know the guys, but it's sort
Speaker 1: of like old, old school radio, okay, and they just
Speaker 1: gaging each other and stuff like that. Anyway, they got
Speaker 1: a financial planner guy on to your point, and I
Speaker 1: have some interest in the financial industry, and he said
Speaker 1: what he does is he holds seminars. And because the
Speaker 1: people come to the seminars free free seminar, come to
Speaker 1: the Wentworth or the Sophotel whatever, free seminar. They say.
Speaker 1: You know, because by the way, this particular raization everybody
Speaker 1: listening to this is probably over sixty five, including me,
Speaker 1: and they're all retired. But it's the supermniaration industries is
Speaker 1: confusing as hell. I don't understand it, like I've got
Speaker 1: no idea, and I actually thought himself, you know what,
Speaker 1: I would probably go to that seminar if I could
Speaker 1: be stuffed, you know, like, if I felt like it,
Speaker 1: I probably could should send my one of my sons along,
Speaker 1: who looks after my stuff, my financial stuff. Here's you
Speaker 1: go along. And I thought of him, So that's very clever.
Speaker 1: They don't really need to advertise. Your point is that
Speaker 1: the people that are going to engage with them, their
Speaker 1: place is probably then probably not even going to look
Speaker 1: on Facebook. No, you know, I'm probably not those people
Speaker 1: probably are. I'm mean, I'm on Instagram, but those people
Speaker 1: probably aren't even on Instagram. My brother's not on Instagram,
Speaker 1: for example. He's definitely not on TikTok. He might look
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn, but still it's he. He would rather turn
Speaker 1: up and face to face it. If there's five other
Speaker 1: people in the room, I want to hear what you
Speaker 1: have to say to me. That's quite important. So if
Speaker 1: I go back to your point, your point is, apart
Speaker 1: from working out what your message is going to be,
Speaker 1: know who your client is or your customer is, and
Speaker 1: so in doing that, Let's say someone's not doing financial
Speaker 1: mone they're doing something totally different. How do they work
Speaker 1: that out? I mean do they say do they where
Speaker 1: do they get the data from? Like, yeah, how do
Speaker 1: I find it? If it's if it's women between thirty
Speaker 1: and thirty five or thirty and forty single women between
Speaker 1: thirty and forty, how do I how do you find
Speaker 1: it out? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I mean it's it's something that's hard to work out,
Speaker 3: but you know it's one of the I guess marketing
Speaker 3: fundamentals that you should probably even figure out before you
Speaker 3: start the business is segmenting the market and to do that,
Speaker 3: you have to understand what the total market is.
Speaker 1: Not justly that's an important one. Sure, private equity, Yep,
Speaker 1: when they've investigated, they say, what is your tail total
Speaker 1: addressable market? So this is a really important point here.
Speaker 1: I mean you you just said your addressable market. Yes,
Speaker 1: the total addressable market otherwise referred to as TL. That
Speaker 1: is all the people in the world perhaps who are
Speaker 1: fit into they like to buy a certain time perfume, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is made in Egypt because and it's exotic. So
Speaker 1: whereas so you need to know when you look at
Speaker 1: the town. And I've never actually done this, but does
Speaker 1: that mean the number of people or does it mean
Speaker 1: the number of transactions you can have with those? Bit
Speaker 1: what does that mean?
Speaker 2: You can work it out a number of ways.
Speaker 3: I think you know, to get it specifically right, you
Speaker 3: probably have to engage some market research agency if you
Speaker 3: really want to go through it.
Speaker 1: So do you do that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean we offer those services. We've got
Speaker 3: a media planning team. And again the first thing they'll
Speaker 3: say is, you know, what are these customers? We work
Speaker 3: it out from a I guess addressable customer based on
Speaker 3: from an advertising standpoint. So again we work with all
Speaker 3: our advertisers and they have data on these addressable markets
Speaker 3: across these different I guess industry SKUs or verticals. And
Speaker 3: that is where social media has been way more effective
Speaker 3: in terms of really drilling down on specific audience groups
Speaker 3: because I can go on to something like a meta
Speaker 3: advertising platform and I can say I want males between
Speaker 3: these ages in these locations that have these political views
Speaker 3: and like this sport and blah blah blah. You can
Speaker 3: get the most I guess specific addressable audience from something
Speaker 3: like social media. So again going back to the original question,
Speaker 3: we'd work with our media vendors and brief in audiences
Speaker 3: and they'd say, well, we have this many.
Speaker 1: Media vendors being a television, televisionation.
Speaker 3: Medio station, meta, whoever it type is, and we can
Speaker 3: come back there. And then there's also some market research
Speaker 3: companies that you know, the experience, and there's some other
Speaker 3: panels that are readily available online from you gov, and
Speaker 3: a lot of industry associations and publications will put reports
Speaker 3: out around total size of industry and customer base. But again,
Speaker 3: you know, if I was a everyday punter at home,
Speaker 3: you can get a lot of this from sort of
Speaker 3: desktop research in.
Speaker 1: Terms of so you work out market, you work out
Speaker 1: the size of the market, and that's the first thing.
Speaker 1: The second thing is you've got a product, do you
Speaker 1: before you you've got a skill the ability to build
Speaker 1: a product that might be makeup mirror, ye say, just
Speaker 1: to pick something bland and you have a really good
Speaker 1: idea what you think is going to be done? Do
Speaker 1: you do that? Or do you go to the market
Speaker 1: and say, what do you think is going to be done?
Speaker 1: What do you do? You? Should you? Because I've seen
Speaker 1: people build products look fantastic, and they look fantastic me
Speaker 1: and them, but they don't never sell because the market
Speaker 1: doesn't give a shit about it. That's not what they want.
Speaker 1: In terms of researching, should business owners be trying to
Speaker 1: use their skill to build a product that the market
Speaker 1: wants or should they be trying to build something that's
Speaker 1: so cool that they've got to try and convince the
Speaker 1: market that's what they should have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to give the answer that sits on
Speaker 3: the fence because there's two ways so to it. Right,
Speaker 3: if you look at someone like an Elon Musk, yeah,
Speaker 3: no one would have said yeah, so anything he's got
Speaker 3: to build so on the one hand, the market doesn't
Speaker 3: always recognize innovation. That's probably disruption there, and that is disruption.
Speaker 3: But in terms of I guess you know every day
Speaker 3: ninety five percent of businesses that aren't disrupting the market,
Speaker 3: it's doing something slightly different. So whether it's faster, cheaper,
Speaker 3: or a different different sort of skewed design or style
Speaker 3: and existing product. As I said, you know, what is
Speaker 3: that competitive advantage? And it could come down to taste
Speaker 3: and style, price delivery, or you build that brand where
Speaker 3: it's just you have to have that brand, so the
Speaker 3: difference is actually the brand sticker on something. So you know,
Speaker 3: market research I still believe in in a big way,
Speaker 3: particularly speaking two different audiences who are from those different
Speaker 3: segments within that addressable audience and feedback is awesome and
Speaker 3: even along the way in product design, and I think
Speaker 3: you know, in terms of building community along the way,
Speaker 3: having an audience that's brought into the process of this
Speaker 3: product evolution where they feel like they've got involvement, and
Speaker 3: this is anohing. Social media is fantastic for is bringing
Speaker 3: people on that journey.
Speaker 2: I think it's a.
Speaker 3: Really good way to design a product and grow and
Speaker 3: iterate over time is invite your audience into to test
Speaker 3: and have input.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I was thinking the other day one
Speaker 1: of a friend of a school made of one of
Speaker 1: my sons. He's married to a young lady and she's
Speaker 1: got a bikini brand and she has like a huge
Speaker 1: following on Instagram, and from all accounts, that's very well
Speaker 1: for herself. And I often wondered myself if this like
Speaker 1: a million I don't know, but I think there's a
Speaker 1: million bikini brands out there, and I wonder how it
Speaker 1: is that she's been able to sustain this success for
Speaker 1: a number of years, probably since I've been watching what
Speaker 1: she does relative knowing this kid, he's a man, but
Speaker 1: it's probably five years or so, and I've often wanted to,
Speaker 1: you know, given the number of bikini brands are going
Speaker 1: to David Jonas, somebody you'll see like racks and racks
Speaker 1: of this stuff. And I don't even know if she
Speaker 1: sells a dav but no, less, I just wonder why
Speaker 1: someone like that could be so successful. I mean, what
Speaker 1: is your experience? What have you seen why someone like her?
Speaker 1: You don't have to you don't even have to know her,
Speaker 1: but like, what have they done. What are they doing?
Speaker 1: She's very consistent, she's always posting, she's traveling all around
Speaker 1: the world. She's very she's quite a sort of glamorous,
Speaker 1: but also an everyday girl too at the same times.
Speaker 1: Somedow she says, seems a beit to blend the two together.
Speaker 1: Loves hanging out with all the superstars in America. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff in America. How do these people
Speaker 1: sustain these brands and stand out amongst a really big crowd.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 3: I mean that that is a space where there is
Speaker 3: not much disruption. It's the same thing, it's the same
Speaker 3: triangles with the you know, similar patterns over time. So
Speaker 3: I think in a space like that where there isn't
Speaker 3: I guess a lot of I guess differentiators. In terms
Speaker 3: of product, it does come down to brand, and brand
Speaker 3: speaks for a number of things, and then we give
Speaker 3: everything within the brand space. It's that you know that aspiration.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about aspiration?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Aspirations is a really interesting one. And you see a
Speaker 3: lot of celebrity based marketing coming through on social media
Speaker 3: and even you know, even there's a lot of big
Speaker 3: sort of tech brands that we're working with now that
Speaker 3: are using celebrities and these aren't just consurerants B to
Speaker 3: B brand. So I think it's a really important driver
Speaker 3: in terms of making a decision and almost picking that team.
Speaker 3: It's like a team, there's fandom behind it. And so
Speaker 3: we actually measure this and it's called is this a
Speaker 3: brand for someone like me? And we measure this as
Speaker 3: a marketing outcome, and something that some of the big
Speaker 3: brands track via surveys is you know, how are we
Speaker 3: tracking in asking our target audience if we're a brand
Speaker 3: for someone like them? And so I think when you
Speaker 3: look at trying to I guess, make someone choose you
Speaker 3: and be on their team, it is going back to
Speaker 3: this old school tribalism, like you know, that's I aspire
Speaker 3: to be like them, I respect them, I want to
Speaker 3: be part of that. I want to be seen in this.
Speaker 3: And that comes down to feeling and there's a whole part.
Speaker 3: There's a whole part of that, which is why you'll
Speaker 3: often see brands that have been really successful, particularly fast
Speaker 3: going entrepreneur brands, the founder will be quite present in
Speaker 3: their advertising, their social You'll know their story, you know,
Speaker 3: even you know you're Pip Edwards. And I'm not a
Speaker 3: fashion by any stretch imagination, but you know about them
Speaker 3: and their brand, and you think that person is cool
Speaker 3: as in pernation, and then that transfers across to the
Speaker 3: p nation type of pie. So again, in that bikini space,
Speaker 3: it is very much around you know who you are,
Speaker 3: who you hang out with, and I want to be
Speaker 3: seen in that because I want to.
Speaker 2: Be like them.
Speaker 1: I got together by I just quickly want to like you,
Speaker 1: nearly got to be psychologists to do what you do.
Speaker 1: It's psychology, yeah, yeah, and maybe even say, on the
Speaker 1: example of the bikini brand I was talking about, nearly
Speaker 1: like got to be a psychologist to be able to
Speaker 1: run that brand. I don't know if she has an
Speaker 1: agency or not, but she has to know how people roll, yep.
Speaker 1: And and maybe I should and maybe I've never attributed
Speaker 1: enough knowledge to her, her ability to understand how people
Speaker 1: think relative to them, aspiring to be the same person
Speaker 1: as she is or the people she hangs with, well
Speaker 1: that she promotes that she hangs with it. She may not,
Speaker 1: she may be a complete recluse for all owner, but
Speaker 1: just on Instagram in moment, I mean, I know our
Speaker 1: Instagram shows me is doing something a certain way, but
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily that same person in private. And so
Speaker 1: the psychology of working out how people will, for example,
Speaker 1: on that example which is gave be aspire to be
Speaker 1: you and therefore wear the same outfit of the same
Speaker 1: bikini that you're selling, how does if I'm using an agency,
Speaker 1: how does an agency address that? Is? In other words,
Speaker 1: let's say, all, I'm really good at sewing, I can
Speaker 1: make it, or I got a team in China can
Speaker 1: make this stuff. But I'm obless that the rest of
Speaker 1: the psychology, and I come along to you. What's the
Speaker 1: first thing apart from knowing the addressable market, what's the
Speaker 1: next thing that you would do? What would you analyze
Speaker 1: about my audience? My market?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's really interesting that the first thing
Speaker 3: is understanding audience. We do a big analysis piece on that.
Speaker 3: It's not just how big they are, it's the psychology
Speaker 3: behind who they are, how they think, how they buy,
Speaker 3: and we look at that as a as a as
Speaker 3: a full research project, just that one sort of line
Speaker 3: item itself. The next thing we go down TI when
Speaker 3: we look at your brand, who you are, what you
Speaker 3: stand for, what's your point of difference?
Speaker 2: What are your values?
Speaker 3: You know, what can we pull out in an unearth
Speaker 3: from what you're already doing or what you stand for
Speaker 3: that's going to make you, I guess, stand out from
Speaker 3: the pack. So looking at that, and again that might
Speaker 3: not be aspirational, it might be value based, and so
Speaker 3: you might say someone's got a sort of a big
Speaker 3: sustainable stew in terms of what they're doing so well.
Speaker 1: In other words, is it gets particular material, what's the
Speaker 1: story the cotton comes from some pure place that hasn't
Speaker 1: got no been bleached or.
Speaker 3: Something exactly, something that's meaningful to people. And then the
Speaker 3: next thing is we also look at the industry and
Speaker 3: your competitors. So who else is selling this in this space?
Speaker 2: What are they doing?
Speaker 3: How can we be different? How can we take some
Speaker 3: of the things that have worked from them and copy
Speaker 3: that or do it better. So when you start to
Speaker 3: round out this sort of I guess value proposition or
Speaker 3: this strategy, it's who are my audience, how do they think,
Speaker 3: how are they buying, who else is selling to them?
Speaker 2: What are they doing? What are they doing well?
Speaker 3: And then what do we do and what have we
Speaker 3: got that we can do better or pull out to
Speaker 3: sort of I guess pitch or propose or sell that's
Speaker 3: going to go around these competitors, over them, through them,
Speaker 3: but still adhere to my audience and what they want.
Speaker 3: And I think that's my biggest advice to any businesses.
Speaker 3: I find a lot of business owners they jump to
Speaker 3: the tactic I've got to get to a social posit
Speaker 3: or of this. It's pulling them back and saying.
Speaker 1: Who's your audience strategy first?
Speaker 3: Strategy first, And I think spend more time there and
Speaker 3: do less of the tactics and you'll be further ahead.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to the break. We're gonna come
Speaker 1: back for the bag. I want to talk but to
Speaker 1: you about and if you don't mind the raiding your
Speaker 1: product or innovating a rounding product, how important that is
Speaker 1: and in terms of marketing. You know, and I fund him.
Speaker 1: I just had a gym franchise business on prior to you,
Speaker 1: and he was talking about how they have to keep
Speaker 1: evolving their proposition to keep ahead of all the competition
Speaker 1: because it's heavy competition and they're and you know, they're
Speaker 1: in Asia, Japan, Singapore, United States, and Australia. But he
Speaker 1: says his success is about innovating his product all the time,
Speaker 1: you know, changing it up all the time. Make sure
Speaker 1: you're head of the pack, or at least up with
Speaker 1: the pack. But I want to ask you about that,
Speaker 1: and then I want to talk to you after the
Speaker 1: break about platforms that we use and how do we
Speaker 1: how often do we use these platforms, and how do
Speaker 1: we work out which ones we should be looking at.
Speaker 1: But let's go to the break. Come straight back. I'm
Speaker 1: back from the break. He was saying, Kelly, here is
Speaker 1: a managing partner of Hello Social soon to change the
Speaker 1: name to Hollow. You're a full service agency. You do
Speaker 1: everything around marketing. If I could just use that loose
Speaker 1: word because it covers a lot of stuff, Just if
Speaker 1: I just think about what we talked about before the break,
Speaker 1: A person who's going into business or is already in
Speaker 1: business and is thinking about, you know, going into a
Speaker 1: serious advertising environment. It's pretty daunting because the stuff you
Speaker 1: and I just discussed, it's like a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: like you can fuck it up easy, and by not
Speaker 1: doing the research. What about people who just say stuff
Speaker 1: And I'm not going to do the re I'm just
Speaker 1: going to act on instinct. I mean, I guess you're
Speaker 1: just going to me, well, there's a fifty to fifty
Speaker 1: change would be good, it's going to be bad.
Speaker 2: It's not fifty to fifty.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's probably a lot less skewed against against success.
Speaker 1: I mean, but it is sort of daunting. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I mean the big organizations who you know, you guys
Speaker 1: act for a lot of them, but I can sort
Speaker 1: of see that they're going to go through the process.
Speaker 1: They're more process driven. Of course, what about newbies, I mean,
Speaker 1: how do they address this issue or do it themselves?
Speaker 1: Should they do it themselves? Do the research because the
Speaker 1: research piece is heavy potentially to get it right.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, I think the people that are in these industries
Speaker 3: that have these ideas, they wouldn't be doing it unless
Speaker 3: they thought they could do it better than someone else.
Speaker 3: So there's already a baseline level of knowledge around how
Speaker 3: the space works. And if you've had this internal motivation
Speaker 3: to go and try it for yourself, there's probably passion
Speaker 3: that's been there for a long time. But to really
Speaker 3: turn that passion into something that they've got to be like,
Speaker 3: I can do it better than them. So there's already
Speaker 3: a baseline understanding of the industry. I think that the
Speaker 3: key part in this is is get some help, ask
Speaker 3: some questions, do some research, because again, you can often
Speaker 3: as a business own to be clouded by your own
Speaker 3: sort of ego or bravado or I think I can
Speaker 3: do it better than them. So I think there's definitely
Speaker 3: a case of building a team. And that team doesn't
Speaker 3: have to only be friends and family. It can be
Speaker 3: some other people who are passionate in the space. So
Speaker 3: again it doesn't mean a big expensive strategy research agency
Speaker 3: coming in. It's do your own research, spend some time
Speaker 3: and more time. I think a lot of entrepreneurs and
Speaker 3: people that say these businesses are quite impatient. It's a
Speaker 3: skill from in many aspects because you just get out
Speaker 3: and do it and start having a crack, and you know, test,
Speaker 3: test and learn and fail fast and go again. But
Speaker 3: I still think that can get you so far, and
Speaker 3: this sophistication around doing this research and this planning, if
Speaker 3: you can get a certain way, and it's funny even
Speaker 3: you hear these success stories about but I just woke
Speaker 3: up and I just did it, and I loved it,
Speaker 3: and I had a crack and and we got there.
Speaker 2: I guarantee you they'll hear the point.
Speaker 3: Where they do two three million dollars revenue a year,
Speaker 3: and they'll go, there's got to be some strategy that
Speaker 3: comes into it. So that earlier you can start thinking
Speaker 3: like this in front learning this, the more successful you
Speaker 3: will be in terms of getting to a point like
Speaker 3: that where you've even.
Speaker 2: Got a viable business.
Speaker 3: So, yeah, it's about putting pen to paper, or if
Speaker 3: you don't put pen to paper, get a whiteboard, get
Speaker 3: your notes in your phone, and start saying, who is
Speaker 3: my audience, how do they think, how do they buy?
Speaker 3: What can I do better than my competitors? And then
Speaker 3: you know, what's my story?
Speaker 2: How do I articulate it?
Speaker 1: And how do I message it? Yeah, so we just
Speaker 1: and you sort of what you've just You said it earlier,
Speaker 1: but you said, don't be tactical. Tactical is important, but
Speaker 1: have a strategy first. You've got to have a strategy.
Speaker 1: And what you were talking about is a whole marketing
Speaker 1: strategy here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think strategy is a scary word, right,
Speaker 3: Like you think it's it's this big book or a
Speaker 3: pretty presentation. It's it's not really Like I did one
Speaker 3: the other day for a recovery clinic. A good friend
Speaker 3: of mine. He said, Oh, my sister's got a recovery clinic.
Speaker 3: You know, they do wellness and recovery and all sorts
Speaker 3: of stuff. And they've got all these amazing treatments, the best,
Speaker 3: the best machine in the country. And I went in
Speaker 3: and I had a tour, and the stuff in there
Speaker 3: were amazing. They were talking about all these machines that
Speaker 3: only were in hospitals and they have only one in
Speaker 3: the country from America. And I said, what can this
Speaker 3: help me with? I said, this sounds great, but I
Speaker 3: don't need this. And when we flipped it on its
Speaker 3: head and we said, well, corporates can use this to
Speaker 3: reduce stress, or it's an alternate to Western medicine, or
Speaker 3: you can lose fat and tone in stubborn areas and
Speaker 3: all these things post of recovery from surgery or neg
Speaker 3: reconstructions or all these things. I said, start there. Start
Speaker 3: not speaking about treatments and services. Start with things that
Speaker 3: relate to audiences and problems you can solve for them.
Speaker 3: And when we just flipped that narrative by talking strategy
Speaker 3: for five minutes, it's like you could just see the
Speaker 3: light bulbs and it's like, oh my gosh, yeah, we
Speaker 3: can go after corporates who are stressed and provide this
Speaker 3: or post pregnancy. And I said, these are huge audience
Speaker 3: groups with money. So if you said to me, come
Speaker 3: and use this x X fifty five hundred X ray machine,
Speaker 3: I would have said, I'm too busy.
Speaker 2: What are you talking about going? I don't it.
Speaker 3: That looks expensive, looks cool. But if you said you're
Speaker 3: a corporate, you work a lot, your stress, you know,
Speaker 3: you don't have time to train as much. You've got
Speaker 3: a busy family life. An hour in here for five
Speaker 3: hundred bucks can actually even you out and get you
Speaker 3: going again. I'd say it's the best five hundred bucks
Speaker 3: I've ever spent.
Speaker 1: It's interesting to say because I'm just thinking about knee
Speaker 1: reconstructions because I know it's going to have one recently.
Speaker 1: And like if you get an nee reconstruction costion tank grant,
Speaker 1: so you've got money you and last, and generally's being
Speaker 1: you're a bit sort of advanced. You're not like twenty
Speaker 1: five or thirty five, like you're probably you know, fifty
Speaker 1: or something that you might be interested. I was thinking
Speaker 1: about hyper barrier chambers, but like you know it's two
Speaker 1: hundred bucks or something. You might. You might if that
Speaker 1: speeds up your recovery, you might do it. But not
Speaker 1: many people. Actually, I've never seen an ad or anything
Speaker 1: coming out anywhere, and I'm sort of all over socials
Speaker 1: and I've never been fed this, So no one's probably
Speaker 1: ever asked the question of the social media companies. Fine,
Speaker 1: Mark Boris for me, and because otherwise I would have
Speaker 1: found me, it would have offered me at some stage
Speaker 1: because I'm won there a lot, unfortunately, probably too much.
Speaker 1: But the hyperbaric chambers has never come to me ever ever,
Speaker 1: And that sort of recovery thing is that's a really
Speaker 1: good point that you made. It Often we just don't.
Speaker 1: Often business owners are experts in what they do and
Speaker 1: not really don't know much more about anything else. They
Speaker 1: don't have an expertise in relation to their marketplace, who
Speaker 1: they should be taking and what the message is. I
Speaker 1: did say to you early on how important is in
Speaker 1: a continual innovation in relation to your product or your
Speaker 1: service relative to staying relevant as a brand?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. I think I'm all for product. It's
Speaker 3: one of the key pillars in marketing is product evolution.
Speaker 3: Product development. You know, they say you can't roll a
Speaker 3: shit in glitter, and so you can't advertise your way
Speaker 3: out of something that is not great, because you'll spend
Speaker 3: a lot of money trying to convince people to use it.
Speaker 3: They'll use it and it's all over. And especially with
Speaker 3: this word of mauth referral and social media these days,
Speaker 3: people will be in the comment saying it doesn't work,
Speaker 3: don't buy it, don't buy it. So product is massive
Speaker 3: for two reasons. One is it gives you something to
Speaker 3: talk about constantly in your marketing.
Speaker 1: In other words, it's our new iteration. With this new.
Speaker 3: Iterations, I think you mentioned before when we were talking
Speaker 3: earlier around around gym's highly competitive space. It's a bit
Speaker 3: of a fat industry and everyone wants the latest and greatest.
Speaker 3: So when you're under that sort of pressure, reinvesting in
Speaker 3: your product is super important. But even in other industries
Speaker 3: where it's actually not as competitive or there isn't as
Speaker 3: much hype around the program itself.
Speaker 2: I talk about.
Speaker 3: Experience and customer experience. So you know, something like an
Speaker 3: uber for instance, their product is phenomenally good and that
Speaker 3: is one of the main reasons why everyone uses it. Yes,
Speaker 3: it's been disruptive, but the customer service, the functionality on there,
Speaker 3: and it's significantly better than their competitors in terms of
Speaker 3: the constant innovation. So product itself in terms of the
Speaker 3: core fundamental what it is, but then also that customer
Speaker 3: success around it is really really important and we see
Speaker 3: a lot of that on social media now. Some brands
Speaker 3: choose to invest in community management and a lot of
Speaker 3: the stuff that comes through there is And I had
Speaker 3: this the other day myself. I bought an expensive umbrella
Speaker 3: at Christmas time. I put it into the sand up
Speaker 3: at Avalon Beach the other day and the point.
Speaker 2: Snapped off it.
Speaker 3: And so I went to this small business owner had
Speaker 3: this great umbrella brand in Bayron Bay, and I said, hey,
Speaker 3: this happened.
Speaker 2: Bang.
Speaker 3: Within five minutes, she said, there's a new there's a
Speaker 3: new pole with a spike on the way. So I'm
Speaker 3: now a brand advocate. So I think whether you call
Speaker 3: it product or or the pieces that sit around that
Speaker 3: experience that wasn't a good product, but my experience around
Speaker 3: it was amazing. So you kind of give them the
Speaker 3: grace they fix it. And I'm an advocate, So yeah,
Speaker 3: product can mean different things, but it's customer experience is super.
Speaker 1: That's a really good good example to mens the brand.
Speaker 1: But that's a really good example because what it tells
Speaker 1: me then as well, what's important is that once I
Speaker 1: buy the product, I've got to know who to contact.
Speaker 1: There's got to be someone that can ring, I can
Speaker 1: ring or whatever, email, whatever the case may be, that
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to go searching everywhere for it.
Speaker 1: I mean, that sort of service side of it, or
Speaker 1: accessibility side of it is critical because you might not
Speaker 1: live in Byron, but you might live in Melbourne and
Speaker 1: you're not going to travel to Byron at the shop
Speaker 1: you bought it out of wherever the case may be.
Speaker 1: You want to be able to get to it. And
Speaker 1: because that's part of the experience exactly, customer experience is critical.
Speaker 1: And on the innovation piece, innovating Uber is a good example.
Speaker 1: I mean, and I was not a big Uber user
Speaker 1: because I had one bad experience with Uber many many
Speaker 1: many like in the early days. But I have been
Speaker 1: using Uber much more in the last eighty months and
Speaker 1: the experience of phenomenal, Like it's amazing. You can see
Speaker 1: where the car is, you know what's going on that
Speaker 1: you can textally do they can come back to you,
Speaker 1: you can call them, you can change the sort of
Speaker 1: undred business on the road. Where are you? It's just like,
Speaker 1: is that about technology? Though a zuba more a technology
Speaker 1: business than anything else. Is it really about the car
Speaker 1: the driving or is it about the technology that I'm accessing? Oh?
Speaker 3: I think Look, it's obviously a tech business, but they've
Speaker 3: got a vision and a mission to make the world
Speaker 3: a better place and sort of move with purpose. So
Speaker 3: the movement piece is important, but it's supported by technology.
Speaker 3: But I think the core fundamental there, and the point
Speaker 3: that everyone should take away is you can make mistakes
Speaker 3: along the way, but if you put your head in
Speaker 3: the sand and ignore it and say that's it, that's
Speaker 3: not the answer. I think people are quite understanding will
Speaker 3: give you grace as long as they can see that
Speaker 3: you are addressing it, communicating and trying to reinvest to
Speaker 3: make things better.
Speaker 1: Over to should you tell everybody that you're doing that?
Speaker 1: I mean, should you get up and said, look, we
Speaker 1: made a mistake, but we're addressing it. I think we've
Speaker 1: got a solution coming up, but it's not far away.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think so, and I think it's
Speaker 3: one of those things that's obviously sensitive for the bigger companies,
Speaker 3: but I think for smaller companies you see it on TikTok.
Speaker 2: All the time.
Speaker 3: Now we call it the not the B to B
Speaker 3: or B two C or we call it the P
Speaker 3: to P, so it's person to person. So the owner
Speaker 3: gets on there and goes live and say, hey, look,
Speaker 3: we've had a bit of feedback around said umbrella or
Speaker 3: bikini breaking. We're working on it. Let us know if
Speaker 3: you have an issue and we'll replace it. Ll give
Speaker 3: you half press off the next one. People go, this
Speaker 3: is a good business, you know, like they're trying, they're
Speaker 3: solving things, they're listening and they're working on things. So
Speaker 3: we've made plenty of mistakes as a business. And if
Speaker 3: you were to judge us on how we were hello
Speaker 3: social ten years ago compared to now, some people would say,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh. So you know, don't use them in
Speaker 3: your formative years, you stuff up. But now it's a
Speaker 3: very different proposition. So I think as long as you
Speaker 3: communicate that people sort of come on the journey.
Speaker 1: With you, can I get some quick sort of quick
Speaker 1: hits from you. So from our small business community listens
Speaker 1: to us a small business audience. Maybe some tips as
Speaker 1: to what small business owners in terms of marketing not do.
Speaker 1: What's something they shouldn't do? And maybe you've seen this happen,
Speaker 1: but are there's some tips says to what they should
Speaker 1: not do?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think most entrepreneurs are naturally reactive. They're always switched on,
Speaker 3: They're always thinking. They see something, it gives them idea,
Speaker 3: They text, they pivot, they change. So that tenacity and
Speaker 3: I guess competitiveness and reactiveness is a good thing, but
Speaker 3: it can also get you in a knot So I think,
Speaker 3: as I said before, it's about having that fundamental strategy.
Speaker 3: And if it's a one pager on who's my audience,
Speaker 3: how do they think?
Speaker 2: How do they buy?
Speaker 3: Here's our messages and you have that cheat sheet, put
Speaker 3: it on your bed, put it on your desk, put
Speaker 3: it in your factory, just referencing that before you go
Speaker 3: and make that snap decision and go Does this comply
Speaker 3: with how people are thinking of what we're doing? Yes,
Speaker 3: do it, because otherwise you'll be waking up every single
Speaker 3: day and you'll see this social media trend or you'll
Speaker 3: see this, or you'll hear someone saying be on radio,
Speaker 3: or change this or move your manufacturing to China, and
Speaker 3: you'll try and do it all.
Speaker 1: So I think have that north star and alignment piece
Speaker 1: and as your guideline, as your guideline. So because entrepreneurs
Speaker 1: by usually by definition tend to get distracted easily. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but and they hear something's gone really well or should
Speaker 1: I be doing that? Yeah, I mean you just have
Speaker 1: something you've experienced with people. They're sort of bouncering a lot.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I think it's actually quite interesting.
Speaker 3: We started working with small businesses who have their own money,
Speaker 3: and now we've sort of worked our way up into
Speaker 3: large enterprise because when you are dealing with the customer
Speaker 3: and it's actually their money, the yeah, it's far more
Speaker 3: I guess reactive, and there is there is pressure, so
Speaker 3: again you have to be far more reactive. So yeah,
Speaker 3: naturally entrepreneurs are are reactive, which is is a pro
Speaker 3: and a con.
Speaker 1: That's your point too, before the tamaking earlier too, because
Speaker 1: big organizations go strategic and they roll it out small owners,
Speaker 1: small smaller business owners spending their own money, and they
Speaker 1: get influenced easily buy something else and then become tactical.
Speaker 1: And you forget about the strategy correct. And I think
Speaker 1: one of the big takeaways from this discussion from a
Speaker 1: from a big organization looks after your organization, looks after
Speaker 1: big clients, is that no matter who you are, build
Speaker 1: a strategy day one and try and stick to it
Speaker 1: at least as you say, it's your north star. Try
Speaker 1: not to move way too much from it. Is there
Speaker 1: something that you've seen Obviously you've seen some good smaller businesses,
Speaker 1: good entrepreneurs. I mean it was a great example that
Speaker 1: they kicked off as a small business in Australia effectively
Speaker 1: now is a huge business. Are there some things that
Speaker 1: you would tell small business owners our audience that have
Speaker 1: worked and turned small businesses into big businesses, apart from
Speaker 1: being strategic and sticking to the strategy, But are there
Speaker 1: are there some sort of guidelines you could sort of
Speaker 1: leave us with what's worked for some of your now
Speaker 1: bigger clients. Who what he wants for small clients? And
Speaker 1: by the way, everybody, everybody, at some stage or other
Speaker 1: was a small business. They all start off a small business.
Speaker 1: General electric was invented by Thomas Edison in eighteen fifty six,
Speaker 1: and he invented a light bulb, and he turned into
Speaker 1: a company called General Electric. Now it's one of the
Speaker 1: biggest companies of the world, but it start off as
Speaker 1: a small business. Every business starts that way. Whober included
Speaker 1: CBA comm with bank Westpac whoever. You want to talk about.
Speaker 1: What have you seen that makes that Is there a
Speaker 1: one or two consistent things that seems to be president
Speaker 1: of every small business that becomes a successful, bigger business.
Speaker 3: For me, at the beginning, it's all about revenue. How
Speaker 3: do you make that phone ring? How do you make
Speaker 3: that till ring? And that's where your focus should be.
Speaker 3: We get very obsessed when we're business owners around our
Speaker 3: brand and our logo and our colors and making sure
Speaker 3: everything's perfect. The focus should be on what makes the
Speaker 3: phone ring and ensuring I look after my people. And
Speaker 3: so for me, small business, lead generation, sales generation, and
Speaker 3: those tactics need to be your fundamental that you get
Speaker 3: right and then work out the sexy stuff after that.
Speaker 1: And are there any particular right now, Are there any
Speaker 1: particular platforms mediums that are working better than others? I mean,
Speaker 1: is our under outstanding mediums?
Speaker 3: Yeah, look at it obviously depends on the business and
Speaker 3: where you need to be. I think, let's say retail retail,
Speaker 3: I think or the issue their online digital retail. You
Speaker 3: should be, you know, your Google Search, Google Shop, and
Speaker 3: then obviously your performance platforms like Meta and TikTok in
Speaker 3: terms of performance ads, and by performance ads, I mean.
Speaker 1: What I mean, I don't know what that means.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good question.
Speaker 3: So you've got your grid that you post on, which
Speaker 3: is for your community for you, however many thousand followers.
Speaker 2: And you go on there.
Speaker 3: But then it's your dark ads, which run through a
Speaker 3: targeted platform where you can go and punch in who
Speaker 3: you want to find.
Speaker 2: And let's say I was trying to sell the hyperbaric chambers.
Speaker 3: I say high net worth, active blah blah blah blah blah,
Speaker 3: And I get an ad and I post up that
Speaker 3: single ad, and I say send it to those people.
Speaker 3: So they're not necessarily a follower, but Facebook, Meta, Instagram
Speaker 3: knows who they are and it will put those ads
Speaker 3: in their feed. That is the quickest way to get
Speaker 3: straight to exactly who you need to. And it's the
Speaker 3: most potent search criteria that there is out there.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. You call it dark as I love that name. Well,
Speaker 1: We've never actually gone out looking for anybody on now
Speaker 1: because we're just a broadcaster. But we don't have a product.
Speaker 1: But what you're saying to me is that I can
Speaker 1: do whatever I want on my stories and I can
Speaker 1: put it every one on my grid on Instagram for
Speaker 1: argument's sake. But if we had a product that we
Speaker 1: wanted to sell, then we'd be doing this so called.
Speaker 1: We would profile the person who I have now as
Speaker 1: a result of talking to have researched, and that's my buyer.
Speaker 1: I would profile them off to whoever it is, Instagram,
Speaker 1: something all meta, and then I'll pay a fee and
Speaker 1: they'll find those people correct, and then they will send it.
Speaker 1: Then we'll develop the message, and then or might come
Speaker 1: to you and you will develop the message for me,
Speaker 1: and then we'll hit them.
Speaker 3: We'll hit them, and you can even go as far
Speaker 3: as putting your objective in there around I want to
Speaker 3: watch the video, or I want to send them to
Speaker 3: my website.
Speaker 1: It just met It does. Do the platforms ask you do,
Speaker 1: They prompt.
Speaker 3: You take you through a survey or a question in
Speaker 3: air where you say, who's the person, what do you
Speaker 3: want them to do? It's very intuitive and I think.
Speaker 3: You know, most people can go through this platform themselves
Speaker 3: and build something out.
Speaker 1: Now I can't go. I can't let you go without
Speaker 1: asking one quick question. Should I using chatby to write
Speaker 1: mads for me? As both coming to you?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a funny one, but you're not looking. You
Speaker 2: don't laugh at that hardy Yeah, Ai, it's interesting, it's coming.
Speaker 1: We're talking about it. How do you guys use it?
Speaker 1: How will you use it?
Speaker 3: It's funny because we actually say that, you know, chat
Speaker 3: GPT is amazing as a baseline and you can get
Speaker 3: a lot of ideas from it, but we also have
Speaker 3: a rule in our agency that we don't want to
Speaker 3: be spitting out things that everyone else has access to.
Speaker 1: Which chatchby do will do?
Speaker 2: Which which it will do?
Speaker 1: Is it tastes one common denominator? It grabs everything.
Speaker 3: It's like a mass internet search and or can put
Speaker 3: pull a lot together and spit out an answer. So
Speaker 3: we say we run that process and say, well, we
Speaker 3: don't use anything that comes off on that list because
Speaker 3: it's too generic. So for us in that sort of
Speaker 3: you know, top tier, we say, well that's our don't
Speaker 3: do list. But I guess for smaller, medium sized business.
Speaker 3: It's the power of that thing is phenomenal in terms
Speaker 3: of and even that research we spoke about before, of
Speaker 3: understanding my audience, how do they think?
Speaker 2: Where do they buy?
Speaker 3: You could ask chat GPT those questions and it could
Speaker 3: be your strategist for you.
Speaker 1: So because someone might have already published something about exactly
Speaker 1: that topic, and chat GP you'll go and find it somewhere.
Speaker 3: It'll go to the yeah, the dark depths and pull
Speaker 3: everything that's relevant together and give you a you know,
Speaker 3: a one page cheat.
Speaker 2: Sheet on on what you should do.
Speaker 1: It's not a bad starter.
Speaker 2: It's a great starter.
Speaker 1: It's funny, you know, because the years not that long ago,
Speaker 1: about any months I thought I'd tried it, and I
Speaker 1: was making a speech and I asked, I'd already written speech,
Speaker 1: asked chat you bee to right to miss speech. I said,
Speaker 1: give me my coming. How many words was this? My
Speaker 1: audience is what I'm talking about? Blah blah, And it
Speaker 1: gave me. It was not bad like it was as
Speaker 1: you said. It was very generic. It wasn't It wasn't
Speaker 1: what I wanted to deliver. Didn't have enough personal stuff
Speaker 1: in there, my story stuff. But it wouldn't have known
Speaker 1: about my story stuff because I not published my story stuff,
Speaker 1: so it comes to pick up my stuff. But it
Speaker 1: was actually not a bad yardstick meat for me to
Speaker 1: look at in terms of what other people have talked about.
Speaker 1: It was about leadership or something like that, and it
Speaker 1: wasn't a bad yards to go on based on what
Speaker 1: you know, John F. Kennedy might have said about leadership.
Speaker 1: You know, it drags that sort of stuff in for you.
Speaker 1: It gives you a few little nice markers and says
Speaker 1: to me, in relation to the speech i'd written, I'm
Speaker 1: on the right track. It wasn't what I was going
Speaker 1: to say, but I'm on the right track. It gives
Speaker 1: you a bit of confidence if you're you know, like
Speaker 1: not that I'm not someone who's sort of lacking in confidence,
Speaker 1: but other people are starting off business and they sort
Speaker 1: of go through the exise you're talking about, and you know,
Speaker 1: and they've done all the research and they've worked out
Speaker 1: the researching says this is what the message was saying.
Speaker 1: Is perhaps the language the message should be put into,
Speaker 1: and these are the platforms are going to go to.
Speaker 1: You've done your work, Yeah, try it out, give it
Speaker 1: a crack and see if there's any variability between what
Speaker 1: you've come up with and what someone else has already
Speaker 1: probably said problems to chat to. Your journey goes to
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. It doesn't go beyond that, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. You're going to get a bit of a guideline.
Speaker 3: Yeah, correct, And I think you know there's a lot
Speaker 3: of I guess when it's starting business. I guess, you
Speaker 3: know blind spots. You know, I know how to make X,
Speaker 3: and you know I don't know how to do the
Speaker 3: financials or even the marketing. I think it can give
Speaker 3: you a really nice, I guess entry point into some
Speaker 3: of these worlds. And yeah, writing ads and writing copy
Speaker 3: for social posts certainly an area it can help you
Speaker 3: with for sure.
Speaker 1: And final question, at what stage should a new business
Speaker 1: owner or a business owner for that matter been around
Speaker 1: for a while come and see your agencies? I mean
Speaker 1: like when is it prohibited for them to come and
Speaker 1: see and when is the sweet spot?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3: Look in terms of I guess bringing in external partners
Speaker 3: and agencies, what I'd recommend as a first stepping stone
Speaker 3: is actually, I guess fragment the services, So don't come
Speaker 3: for a fully managed service, and I'll use social media.
Speaker 3: For example, Let's say I know how to write the
Speaker 3: captions and do the hosts, and I can, you know,
Speaker 3: manage the community right back to everyone, but I don't
Speaker 3: know how to make the video. I would suggest you
Speaker 3: be the entrepreneur you've been, yes, correct, I would suggest,
Speaker 3: you know, go go and get a videographer to help
Speaker 3: you make that one part of it, because if you're
Speaker 3: going to outsource the full thing, you know, you're going
Speaker 3: to start to look at, you know, starting at five
Speaker 3: thousand dollars a month for sort of a small agency
Speaker 3: to start to manage your socials in its entirety.
Speaker 2: Whereas if you.
Speaker 3: Get, you know, spend that five thousand dollars on getting
Speaker 3: some videos made, you could get three months worth of
Speaker 3: videos made that you post and you do. So it's
Speaker 3: starting to look at Yeah, I guess how you can
Speaker 3: decouple some of these these bits and pieces, and then
Speaker 3: from there you'd start to move up through your managed
Speaker 3: services where they sort of look after the whole thing,
Speaker 3: or you look at you bring in a marketing strategist for.
Speaker 1: Me internally who might then link in with an organization exactly.
Speaker 3: And I think one of the other risks that I
Speaker 3: see a lot of small businesses do is they hire
Speaker 3: a junior or a cheap marketer to come and sit
Speaker 3: in the house. The risk you have there is no
Speaker 3: one can do all of this, the strategy and the
Speaker 3: execution across all the different channels, So you know before
Speaker 3: you even get to the point of making that higher
Speaker 3: can that individual do the thing you actually need. So
Speaker 3: for me, it's around understanding what do I need now,
Speaker 3: what bits of that process can I do? And then
Speaker 3: any of the bits that I can't do, then go
Speaker 3: and pay someone else to come in and plug that gap,
Speaker 3: not do the whole.
Speaker 1: And when it comes to looking at an organization or
Speaker 1: looking for an organization, whether it's Hello Social or someone
Speaker 1: else similar to yourselves or either smaller or bigger or whatever,
Speaker 1: you sort of got to edge of the menu and
Speaker 1: look what's on the menu, just like you do if
Speaker 1: you got a restaurant, you've got to choose the meal.
Speaker 1: You don't have to choose every meal. Correct, You're mostly
Speaker 1: you're not going to need everything on the menu, So
Speaker 1: go on there and before you can choose what's on
Speaker 1: the bill on the men you better know what the
Speaker 1: various aspects are, which is sort of why I appreciate
Speaker 1: you coming in today. I'm sort of explaining this stuff
Speaker 1: to not only me, but our audience are It's really important.
Speaker 1: Small business owners are dying to find out about how
Speaker 1: they can propel their business and become vibers, the virgins
Speaker 1: and all the sorts of people that you ordinarily rub
Speaker 1: shoulders with. But can I ask you that you do
Speaker 1: actually rub shoulders with smaller businesses, don't you.
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, from a personal standpoint, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, thanks very much.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it, Narras, thanks for having me. Cheers,
Speaker 2: my