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Speaker 1: My name is Mike Boris and I've teamed up with Steak,

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Speaker 1: one of Australia's top investing platforms, to talk about going public.

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Speaker 1: IPOs are exciting milestones that unlock new capital, draw more attention,

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Speaker 1: and open up opportunities, but a lot happens before and

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Speaker 1: after the trading bill rings, and it's not all glamour.

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Speaker 1: Join me in Canada conversations with prominent business leaders as

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Speaker 1: we reveal all the ups and downs of getting a

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Speaker 1: private company listed. Leslie Chong and Paul Hopper, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: as it says up there, going public with my Boris.

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Speaker 1: Thanks very much, I appreciate your time. So, Leslie, you're

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Speaker 1: the CEO and managing director of a company called EMU

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Speaker 1: Gene Limited.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's correct, yep.

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Speaker 1: And Paul you're the founder and executive chair of the

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Speaker 1: same company. Welcome and thanks for both coming up. This

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Speaker 1: is the first time I've done this series for some

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Speaker 1: I've done two people in an interview and a discussion

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Speaker 1: about what it's like to access capital markets public capital

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Speaker 1: markets and then take on a listing and in your case,

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Speaker 1: yours is AX Tickets. I am you, and we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about how well it's done, because from my notes, it

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Speaker 1: has done very wealth. But probably first thing, what does

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Speaker 1: imaging stand for? Like what's your deal? What are you?

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Speaker 1: What is your thesis and your proposition? And maybe either

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Speaker 1: one of you can answer the questions up to you. Guys.

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Speaker 2: Look, I think imaging is all about trying to help

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Speaker 2: patients with cancer. We feel pretty united against cancer, this

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Speaker 2: fight against cancer. We're all affected by it, unfortunately and

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Speaker 2: unfortunate enough to be a part of a company that's

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Speaker 2: helping some patients live longer, stabilizing their disease and hopefully

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Speaker 2: leading to a cure.

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Speaker 1: So it's a biotech So nition, biotechs are heavy on

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Speaker 1: research because you have to be, because you're going to

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Speaker 1: try and put up a unique proposition relative to what

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Speaker 1: you do. You're the founder of this pool, I mean,

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Speaker 1: prior to being listed. What was it that drove you

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Speaker 1: to find this company? They set this company out? What

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Speaker 1: was it?

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Speaker 3: Well? I lived in the United States for about eleven years,

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Speaker 3: and I had a business model which I built up

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Speaker 3: which was basically going around to all the major medical

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Speaker 3: institutions and universities in America like More or else. Loan

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Speaker 3: Cattering M. D Anderson UCLA City of Hope, and they

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Speaker 3: have whole departments within their institutions where they seek to

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Speaker 3: out license technology that's being developed in the university or institution.

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Speaker 3: And there comes a point where they don't want to

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Speaker 3: fund effectively fit clinical trials, which is where the rubber

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Speaker 3: hits the road in biotech, and so they look to

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Speaker 3: industry to come in, do diligence on the technology and

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Speaker 3: licen So I found this technology at a university and

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Speaker 3: licensed it, and away we went.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you could just dig into that a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because what you said was quite modest. But most people

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Speaker 1: don't know how this process works. So universities are greater

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Speaker 1: doing research, and you know they sometimes they get grants

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Speaker 1: at fund PhD students and or professors and within departments,

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Speaker 1: and let's look at the medical side of the world,

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Speaker 1: and they get it to a certain stage. But the

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Speaker 1: university ends up owning either all of it, a great

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Speaker 1: part of that research, especially if there's an outcome.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they own one hundred percent of it. They never

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Speaker 3: give up the ownership of So the intellectual property is

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Speaker 3: the asset of a biotech company. We don't own bricks

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Speaker 3: and mortar. We generally don't have laboratories carrying out experiments.

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Speaker 3: So when you get a license from one of these universities,

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Speaker 3: it's a technology license to the IP. They keep the

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Speaker 3: IP until the patent expires, but you effectively own the

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Speaker 3: rights to the technology and you pay the fees as

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Speaker 3: the drug develops.

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Speaker 1: And just so we should clear this up first. There

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Speaker 1: are not a lot of people, but I've met many

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Speaker 1: people over my time who scour the university campuses for

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Speaker 1: different types of tech. In this case, you were talking

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Speaker 1: about a biotech. But they scour the universities and they

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Speaker 1: meet up with the university professors and academics and they

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Speaker 1: talk to them, and it's a long game. It's a

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Speaker 1: very long game. It's going to be very patient, a

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Speaker 1: very long game. And then you've got to select, well,

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Speaker 1: hang on that one there, that's like something I think

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Speaker 1: I can commercialize, And is that your process?

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Speaker 3: Exactly what you do? So you plow through. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the universities have got hundreds of pages of technologies which

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Speaker 3: will have a lot of trouble finding a home in

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Speaker 3: the commercial world because they're either far too early. And

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Speaker 3: you've got to remember, in the biotech game, what you're

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Speaker 3: looking for is patient capital because the time to develop

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Speaker 3: a drug could be like t years. So you and

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Speaker 3: where the rubber hits the road, as I've said, is

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Speaker 3: when you first put it into a human. So we

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Speaker 3: want to license the technology as close to a phase

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Speaker 3: one clinical trial as you can. If you license it

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Speaker 3: four or five years before a phase one trial, you're

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Speaker 3: going to have a lot more trouble raising the capital

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Speaker 3: and selling it to the market if in fact you

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Speaker 3: want to.

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Speaker 1: Go public with it, so you might run out of

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Speaker 1: money to write.

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Speaker 3: So the idea is to find something which you believe

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Speaker 3: is investable. In other words, you'll be able to put

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Speaker 3: a story to the market that is convincing enough for

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Speaker 3: people to write a check to invest in it.

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Speaker 1: So therefore you must buy. Definition have to know the market,

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Speaker 1: so you know what the audience, the market or the

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Speaker 1: audience is looking for. So you know the audience at

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Speaker 1: least you deal with because you're doing you're the marketplace

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Speaker 1: in that you're creating marketplace. You know who the investors are,

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Speaker 1: and you know what is investable because you know what's

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Speaker 1: brewing in the university. You think you know hopefully, and

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Speaker 1: your job is to sort of put them together so

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Speaker 1: to speak, in terms of the audience, the invest the investors.

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Speaker 1: How do you work out what's it look like you're

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Speaker 1: talking to these individuals, like, how do you fund managers

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Speaker 1: or institutions or family officers? How do you find these people?

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Speaker 1: What's your process?

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Speaker 3: Well, I've been at it a long time, so I

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Speaker 3: know where everyone. You know, where they're all located. And

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Speaker 3: I know a lot of the brokers.

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Speaker 1: And so brokers being stockbrokers.

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Speaker 3: Stockbrokers, yeah, you know in the US they call them bankers,

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Speaker 3: So I know, I know who the marketplace is. And

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Speaker 3: as you do the diligence, Let's say you find a

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Speaker 3: technology like imagene has, which came from the University of

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Speaker 3: Vienna Medical School, and it was a vaccine for breast cancer.

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Speaker 3: But right, so I'm not a scientist. I don't know

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Speaker 3: the intricacies of that sort of work, but I know

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Speaker 3: I have a panel of people who are experts, and

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Speaker 3: I show it to them. And as you do the

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Speaker 3: due diligence, it becomes apparent to you whether this thing

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Speaker 3: is going to fly in the capital markets. Are people

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Speaker 3: going to believe the story is that the things that

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Speaker 3: they claim Because you've never met a scientist who doesn't

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Speaker 3: believe they've got the answer to cure in cancer. They

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Speaker 3: all believe their technology is the best in the world,

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Speaker 3: which I guess is a good thing. But as you

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Speaker 3: do the diligence, and Leslie and I have done this

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Speaker 3: over the years many times because we get shown things.

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Speaker 1: So you guys, this is not your first show together, souch.

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Speaker 3: No, we've been together for nearly ten years working together.

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Speaker 2: I just needed to make that No, it's thank you.

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Speaker 3: So we've looked at a lot of technologies together and

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Speaker 3: diligence them and walked away from most of them because

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day, you have to make

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Speaker 3: a commercial assessment. Well you've got to make two assessments

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Speaker 3: of scientific assessment. Can this really become a drug? Has

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Speaker 3: it really got a chance? Because in cancer, the vast

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Speaker 3: majority of the drugs fail. They never get approved because

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Speaker 3: it's such a difficult thing to cure cancer and cancer

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Speaker 3: is a very very resilient, bulletproof illness. So you have

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Speaker 3: to start with the assumption that it's going to be

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Speaker 3: difficult to get it approved and so often it will

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Speaker 3: fail on that, and then there's the commercial considerations as well.

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Speaker 1: So if you just take me, so you've identified at

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Speaker 1: this university, the name of which a scase because I've

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Speaker 1: never heard of the universe before, but not that I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's all that relevant. You know, there's an

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Speaker 1: audience over potentially he might want to invest. How did

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Speaker 1: you how do you how did you both work out

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Speaker 1: that this particular drug? Was it a drug for a

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Speaker 1: particular experimental drug, experimental drug which hadn't been clinically tested.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it had been in a phase one clinical trial.

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Speaker 1: Been in a phase one clinical trial, has some interesting results,

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Speaker 1: so some sort of validation in terms.

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Speaker 3: Of what they were, what the thesis was safe, because

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Speaker 3: the first thing is to determine safety. If it's not safe,

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Speaker 3: you can't go anywhere. That's the end of the drug.

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Speaker 3: And then it also had what we call efficacy. It

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Speaker 3: had a signal that it might be working, you know,

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Speaker 3: a subtle signal that there was something happening in terms

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Speaker 3: of maybe reducing the cancer or whatever. And then we

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Speaker 3: showed it to a lot of people that knew what

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Speaker 3: they were talking about, and we got the seal of approval.

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Speaker 3: So then I formed so I went back and forth

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Speaker 3: to Vienna in Austria, which is where it was invented,

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Speaker 3: formed a company and put some money in and signed

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Speaker 3: a license with the university and then took it to

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Speaker 3: the markets here in Australia and we actually did a

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Speaker 3: reverse merger or a backdoor listing on a company called

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Speaker 3: imy Gene that was really just a shell and on

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Speaker 3: the back of that we raised I think five million

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Speaker 3: dollars and we listed I think just almost on Christmas

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Speaker 3: Eve twenty thirteen, and there we next day we were well,

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Speaker 3: not the next but a week later we were training

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Speaker 3: under the symbol of I am You, and we were

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Speaker 3: a cancer biotech company.

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Speaker 1: And bi techs have had some ups and downs over

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Speaker 1: the last be fair to say, over the last five

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Speaker 1: six years, and having some of them are not as

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Speaker 1: popular as they were. Bi techs was a big deal

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Speaker 1: about pre COVID. I think.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the nuclear winter for biotech has been the

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Speaker 3: last two and a half years.

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Speaker 1: The nuclear winter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's wine shocking.

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Speaker 1: I like that. It's been hell So Leslie, when you

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Speaker 1: are looking at something like this and Paul just mentioned

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Speaker 1: as a panel of hard nosed scientists, I guess is

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Speaker 1: that what we're talking about. Is that what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about with.

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Speaker 2: I declare myself as a drug developer, a cancer drug

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Speaker 2: developer from genen Tech. So I was happy at gen Tech,

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Speaker 2: being an executive there having lived there, and I looked

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Speaker 2: for I looked at imaging and thought, wow, this is

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Speaker 2: something new, this is novel, this could work. I had

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Speaker 2: come from a place where we love innovation, and so

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Speaker 2: I thought this was quite innovative. And I joined the

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Speaker 2: company in late twenty fifteen after having looked at that

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Speaker 2: asset from the Medical University of Vienna, and started developing

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Speaker 2: it as soon as I got into the company.

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Speaker 1: So when you see it that asset, I mean, and

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Speaker 1: most people probably wouldn't see it as a property asset,

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Speaker 1: but it's a property asset, and there's intellectual property because

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Speaker 1: it's not something you can touch or whatever, but there's

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Speaker 1: intellectual property that somebody has gone off and designed a

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Speaker 1: drug and or tested a drug for a certain outcome.

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Speaker 1: When you see that, how do you work out whether

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Speaker 1: or not it's something that potentially could get commercialized because

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Speaker 1: it's a big call, Like obviously there's demand for it,

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Speaker 1: there's cancer cures, as demand for a cancer cure, But

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Speaker 1: how do you work out whether it's something that will fly.

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Speaker 2: Well, you have to look at the current LEFE landscape

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Speaker 2: of that particular disease and see if there's a market

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Speaker 2: for it. Initially, if it's already cluttered and you have

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Speaker 2: a lot of marketed products already as in competition, competition

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Speaker 2: or things that are already considered the standard of care.

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Speaker 2: That means they approved the drug and it's being sold.

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Speaker 2: So doctors can't prescribe you anything that's considered an investigational product,

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Speaker 2: like an experimental drug. So you look at the landscape

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Speaker 2: and see, well, is there a lot of products for

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Speaker 2: this particular breast cancer or this particular gastric cancer, and

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Speaker 2: then you look at ways of being able to navigate

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Speaker 2: through that drug development pathway. And that's exactly what we

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Speaker 2: did with the initial product, hervas that we called it's

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Speaker 2: a vaccine that goes after a certain mutation on the cell,

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Speaker 2: and it started working in the phase one and we

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Speaker 2: knew that we develop it further, and so that's exactly

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Speaker 2: what we did. At the end of twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: we had completed a phase two study with the product,

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Speaker 2: and then we thought, well, Paul and I were very

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Speaker 2: excited about the prospect of having assets a new innovative

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Speaker 2: science into the company. So we brought on just like

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Speaker 2: Paul was saying earlier, he walked up and down city

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Speaker 2: of Hope, a major cancer center out of California, found

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Speaker 2: a product and he was looking at these science and

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Speaker 2: had a review from his panel of scientists. And I

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Speaker 2: happened to have looked at it on his desk and

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Speaker 2: knew that it was a good fit for imaging. So

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Speaker 2: we brought that on as well into the company.

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Speaker 1: So do you mind, Doug just humoring me or maybe

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Speaker 1: indulging me a little bit into what the drug actually does?

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Speaker 1: So I mean and what and what is it chasing?

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Speaker 1: What cancer of what type?

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Speaker 2: So for the initial product, I.

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Speaker 1: Should just finish it. But you also mentioned it's it's

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Speaker 1: like a vaccine, So.

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Speaker 2: This is a vaccine, but it's against it's a it's

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Speaker 2: not properlactic which we don't use it pre pre cancer.

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Speaker 2: You use it as a treatment after you've had cancer.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, but so it just maybe just go through

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Speaker 1: that process though of immunization. How it was because my

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Speaker 1: recently lost my father who went through immunotherapy and I

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Speaker 1: was trying to work out what they're talking about when

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Speaker 1: it didn't work for him because it was too far,

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Speaker 1: too far advanced. But is that is that a form

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Speaker 1: of immune therapy, which.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely it's all about. Immuno therapy just simply means you're

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Speaker 2: using your immune system to go after a certain kind

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Speaker 2: of cancer or target exactly hopefully your own immune system,

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Speaker 2: because right now as we're sitting here, I mean system

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Speaker 2: is already surveilling our bodies for things that are mutant,

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Speaker 2: things that are untowards yourself. So just as bacteria or viruses,

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Speaker 2: they go after them. It's when it goes awry then

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Speaker 2: it becomes cancer. Cancer has been living in one system

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Speaker 2: for maybe a year upwards of thirty years, so it's

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Speaker 2: had a lot of time to mutate and actually hide

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Speaker 2: from your immune system.

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Speaker 1: Right. That's interesting. But is your immune system looking forward.

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Speaker 2: It finds a way to avoid or evade the immune system, so.

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Speaker 1: If it cancer does, yes, But is your immune system

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Speaker 1: if it can't do that, if it can't find a

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Speaker 1: way to avoid it, we immune your own immune system

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Speaker 1: destroy generally.

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Speaker 2: Yes. So we're sitting here and hopefully our immune system

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Speaker 2: is doing exactly what it's supposed to do, is to

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Speaker 2: get rid of our mutant or mutated cells so that

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Speaker 2: they don't divide and become cancer.

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Speaker 1: Right. That's interesting. So the drug itself. What does it do.

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Speaker 1: Does it enhance the immune system, what does it do?

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Speaker 1: Or is it teaches it how to look for something?

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Speaker 2: A little bit? All of that, all of the aboves.

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Speaker 2: So there are drugs out there that fortifies your immune

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Speaker 2: system so that it can see the cancer. There are

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Speaker 2: drugs that actually inhibit certain signaling to the immune system

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Speaker 2: that they're okay. So you have these bad mutated cells.

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Speaker 2: That tells your immune system everything is cool. Here, we're

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Speaker 2: going to multiply it. So it's okay, we're like regular

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Speaker 2: cells because it's learned how to chase that's a really

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Speaker 2: great way to put it. So it's a decoy, it's

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Speaker 2: a chameleon. It hides from your immune system. So when

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Speaker 2: your immune system find a drug maybe that inhibits that

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Speaker 2: signaling or telling of your immune system that there's something awry.

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Speaker 2: Those are also immunotherapy because it teaches your immune system

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Speaker 2: this is cancer. Guys, come and get me.

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Speaker 1: Your company. What are you currently developing? Well, I want

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Speaker 1: to I'll come back to the listing in the moment,

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Speaker 1: just as a concept. What are you currently developing? This exciting?

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Speaker 2: Oh, We've got so many things that are exciting with

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Speaker 2: the company. I don't even know where to start, but

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Speaker 2: I think our prioritize program now is this thing called

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Speaker 2: aser cell. This is a revolution in blood cancer. So

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Speaker 2: you've heard of cartes, have you chmeric antigen?

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Speaker 1: Now go through it to a wait.

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Speaker 2: So cartes are a means of fortifying your T cells.

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Speaker 2: They're engineered to soup up your T cells and then

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Speaker 2: the T cells goes after a certain mutant target. So

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Speaker 2: in this case, let's say CD nineteen clustered differentiated nineteen.

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Speaker 2: It only happens in blood cancers. So you have too

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Speaker 2: many of these signaling paths. Then you have a therapy

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Speaker 2: called car T re engineered T cells that learns or

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Speaker 2: teaches your T cells to go after CD nineteen and

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Speaker 2: CD nineteen only. So it's like a missile guided it's

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Speaker 2: a guided missile scores of CD nineteen, Yes exactly.

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Speaker 3: We actually use an image of that in our sales,

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Speaker 3: GUD so let me explain it. That may be a

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Speaker 3: bit technical, but here's me talking to a broker. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So basically, a car T you're a cancer patient, We

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Speaker 3: take your blood out, we separate the T cells, we

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Speaker 3: take the T cells to all laboratory, and we reprogram

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Speaker 3: the software.

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Speaker 1: We then literally with software.

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Speaker 3: We engineer the T cell so that it has only

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Speaker 3: one thing on its mind. It becomes a guided missile

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Speaker 3: and it's reprogrammed to recognize a bullseye on the surface

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Speaker 3: of a cancer cell. It's a specific type of bullseye,

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Speaker 3: so breast cancer. It might be her too, It just

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Speaker 3: depends on the cancer. The bulls eye will vary. And

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Speaker 3: once we've programmed it to that bullseye, it's become a

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Speaker 3: car T cell. We inject it back in and when

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Speaker 3: it goes in, think in your mind of a missile

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Speaker 3: with the bullseye target on its brain, and it'll wander

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Speaker 3: around the system and when it sees that bulls eye

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Speaker 3: on the cancer cell and attacks. If you don't have

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Speaker 3: that bullseye on the cancer cell, the missile will wander

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Speaker 3: around aimlessly because it won't have anywhere to go.

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Speaker 1: That's very interesting. So is that okay?

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Speaker 2: That's great?

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Speaker 1: So typically, you know, I remember when my dad was

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Speaker 1: in hospital, he had radio therapies, so it was like

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Speaker 1: very direct and sort of you know, a few things

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Speaker 1: on his skin and they seem to be able to

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Speaker 1: heal it get rid of it pretty quickly. But they

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Speaker 1: said the immunotherapy. Then they said we should go on

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Speaker 1: to immunotherapy because you end up having cancer a lots

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Speaker 1: of different places, but particularly in the lungs. So you're

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Speaker 1: saying the immunotherapy that you guys do would actually look

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Speaker 1: at the particular cancer he has. You would take the

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Speaker 1: T cells out of his blood. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: you do that, but you take it to somewhere, you

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Speaker 1: get the T cell out of you blood. You reprogram

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Speaker 1: them to look for this particular type of cancer. Then

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Speaker 1: I guess you put it back. Can we system YEA

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Speaker 1: injected back into them, and those T sales do.

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Speaker 3: So it's a handmade, bespoke treatment made from your own blood.

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Speaker 1: This is new therapy. Immune therapy is relatively speaking.

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Speaker 2: It's relatively new. I would say the birth of immunotherapy

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Speaker 2: was really roughly about twelve years ago when things like katruda.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to guess your dad had lung cancer, so

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Speaker 2: you probably got an immunotherapy called a checkpoint inhibitor, which

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Speaker 2: is very different from cartes. So Cartes currently are only

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Speaker 2: approved for blood cancers, which is roughly about ten percent

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Speaker 2: of all cancer type so cartes in this field, and

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Speaker 2: the blood cancer if you have a certain malignancy, a

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Speaker 2: car tie. That what Paul was talking about. You get

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Speaker 2: your blood taken out, they separate the T cells, they

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Speaker 2: take it to a lab, they re engineer the T

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Speaker 2: cells and put it back into very bespoke, highly personalized.

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Speaker 2: That has led to a revelation revolution in how we

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Speaker 2: can treat certain kinds of blood cancers. Folks are walking

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Speaker 2: out nearly cured of their cancer. This is ninety percent

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Speaker 2: response rate, sometimes sixty percent. So eleven years ago the

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Speaker 2: first CARTI was approved. It's arduous, it's manufacturing heavy. There

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Speaker 2: are new things now called alogenetic cartie where you take

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Speaker 2: a healthy donor T cells. We engineer that in the

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Speaker 2: lab outside of the human body, and when a patient

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Speaker 2: comes in and has a certain kind of blood cancer malignancies,

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Speaker 2: then they can get it off the shelf. So that's

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Speaker 2: what we have at Imagene. It's called an allogenetic CARTI,

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Speaker 2: and it still works similar to the way the bespoke one,

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Speaker 2: but this isn't so much personalized. We're not using a

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Speaker 2: sick patient's T cell and bumping them up. We're actually

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Speaker 2: using a very healthy T cell donor souping those up

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Speaker 2: even further and then treating patients that are quite ill

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Speaker 2: with cancers.

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Speaker 3: So you should think of them as carties come in

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Speaker 3: two flavors. There's the spoke to the bank, I know,

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Speaker 3: you go to the you go to the tailor and

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Speaker 3: have a suit made, and that's called an autologous carti.

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Speaker 3: And the second flavor is aligena, which is off the rack.

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Speaker 3: You go to DJs and buy the suit off the rack.

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Speaker 3: That's the two types handmade, mass made.

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Speaker 1: And where is it? Where are you guys advancing to now?

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Speaker 1: So what's what's exciting happening within the imagene like in

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Speaker 1: terms of because I saw something those about gastronrology and

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm you know, Colin cancer for example, of

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Speaker 1: interest to me because I have a familiar connection to

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Speaker 1: that in terms of people within my family treat on

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Speaker 1: one side, so I'm actually interested in myself. So because

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Speaker 1: this is the new world, isn't it?

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Speaker 2: This is this is novel, this is new. There are

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Speaker 2: no allegenetic car tis approved. So what Paul talked about

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Speaker 2: the bestpoke suits that's already approved and marketed proved.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about tj FDA. Who you talking.

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Speaker 2: About, TGA FDA, European Emea, all of it right. So

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Speaker 2: it's quite approved because it's showing such great promise and response.

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Speaker 1: And the process of getting things approved not just you,

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Speaker 1: but your whole industry. It's capital heavy too, isn't it,

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Speaker 1: Because these things, yeah, take a long time, and as

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Speaker 1: a lot of people clinicians, you've got to hundreds of

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Speaker 1: many people totally and a long time.

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Speaker 2: But that is why you have to have a team

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Speaker 2: that understands drug development, especially in the cancer landscape. It's

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Speaker 2: not just to say you have capital. You have to

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Speaker 2: deploy it in the most genius way.

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Speaker 1: Efficiency.

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Speaker 2: Efficiency. I think about the word scrappy a lot, and

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Speaker 2: it's not something that folks like to think about. But

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Speaker 2: I love being efficient. I like being fast. My parents,

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Speaker 2: you know, my dad passed away from gaster cancer. My

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Speaker 2: mom is a lung cancer survivor. So I know people

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Speaker 2: are waiting for good medicine out there. We need better medicine,

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Speaker 2: bigger and better, but faster.

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Speaker 1: When you say scrapping, do you mean well, I did work.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to just go around another direction. Is that

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Speaker 1: what you mean by scrapping?

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Speaker 2: And I need to be able to pivot. But also,

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Speaker 2: just because I'm a CEO, that doesn't mean I'm not

436
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: in the weeds with developing. I'm not in the weeds

437
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: with you know, I'm there talking to the FDA, talking

438
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: to the team about how we can pivot, how can

439
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: we get a patient in today as opposed.

440
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 1: To next week for clinical trials or clinical trials? Right,

441
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 1: so when you can scrap because you know, there's all

442
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 1: the ethics are involved and all this sort of stuff,

443
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot.

444
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: Of heavily we are regulated to the max, but that's

445
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: that's I think it's the right thing to do. We're

446
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: talking about patient safety and that takes time of most

447
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 2: importance to us.

448
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: But it does take time, and therefore time is money

449
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 1: because you're spending the whole time. So when you go

450
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: back to your investors, So let's just look at image Gene.

451
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: When you found you mentioned that you put some money

452
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 1: into a company you set up in Vienna. It's probably

453
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: not that simple. You had to go to investors to

454
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: raise some money, is that what you did? So there

455
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: was how many raises did you have to do before

456
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 1: you went to before you listed?

457
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 3: Well, I funded it myself until we listed, and then

458
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 3: when we did the backdoor listing, we raised about four

459
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 3: to five million.

460
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: Okay, that's relatively modest.

461
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the company started life with a market cap

462
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 3: probably six million. That was a million for the value

463
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 3: of the shell and then the money we put in.

464
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: So we set forth in two thousand at the beginning

465
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 3: of twenty fourteen as a five or six million dollar company,

466
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 3: and then by twenty one we were the largest biotech

467
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: on the exchange. We were three billion, and we were

468
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: in the ASX two hundred.

469
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: Which is imputant on to come back to that then.

470
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: So just for the sake of the discussion and the audience,

471
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: just take us through what you mean by backtlisting, so

472
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: there is a listed entity in existence, and take me

473
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: through that process.

474
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 3: So in those days, the AX was not resistive to

475
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: companies doing a reverse merger or a backdoor listing. That

476
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 3: is where a private company puts itself into a public

477
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 3: shell that has no that's basically lost its way.

478
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 1: It's not doing anything. It's listed, it's got shareholders, has

479
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: got the right number of shareholders, got the cash cufter

480
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: thousand shareholders. Perhaps it's got maybe some cash in there

481
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: or a little bit of cash in there. The original

482
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: business or the business that it was originally proposed to

483
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: be run on this A six listing is probably no

484
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: longer happening, correct, But it's just sort of sitting there,

485
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: not dormant but idle correct a better way putting it.

486
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: And then that entity buyers your entity in reach overstock. Yes, yes,

487
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: it's not actually we call it a backdoor listing is.

488
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 3: Not quite Yeah, Look, no cash exchanges because the shell

489
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 3: that hasn't had any money, and that was a very

490
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 3: popular way for biotechs to get listed. But the AX

491
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: doesn't like that anymore so the all the I did

492
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 3: try it with one of my companies five years ago

493
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 3: and they decline it. So all my listed companies since

494
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 3: through the front door prospective specte a brand new listing.

495
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: So just just back in those days though, whilst you

496
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: didn't have. One of the advantages of a backdoor listing,

497
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 1: so to speak, is that the host company, which is

498
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: the listed entity, acquires the active entity, the private company,

499
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: in return for stock, So the shareholders of the private

500
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: company gets shares, and there's probably a capital gains advantage

501
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: in that because you're swapping stock shares for shares, but

502
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: you don't get text on it saying that comity gains

503
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: advantage you roll it over, so you only pay tax

504
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: on when you sell the listed company shares, So there's

505
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: there's tax advantages in that. Also, one of the big

506
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: advantages I recall is that there's you didn't have to

507
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 1: do a prospectus, which is a pretty rigorous process, but

508
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 1: you did have to do an information memorandum less read Chris,

509
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: but it's nonetheless responsible for it.

510
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 3: That's why people did it because it was slightly easier

511
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 3: to do a backdoor listing. And in the last number

512
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: of years, the AX does not like that.

513
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: And now the prospector's process. So if we just go

514
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: through that experience and how you deal with you know,

515
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 1: you have to have a broker, you have to have

516
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: there's a review done by the broke that's just sponsoring broker,

517
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: et cetera, cetera. Maybe we just go through that process

518
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 1: and you know, who do you have to talk to

519
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 1: and what did you have to get valuations? Did you

520
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: have to what did you have to present to the

521
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: sponsoring broker in the newer ones, for example, in the

522
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: word you're doing now, So what was your process?

523
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 3: How and how do so Well, we've never done that

524
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 3: process since twenty thirteen, not together with umigene because that's.

525
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: That's what you've done it.

526
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so done. I've done two IPOs in the last

527
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 3: three years. So basically i'd find the technology, do the

528
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: diligence on it with the scientific experts. At that point

529
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 3: I start to involve a broker and get them familiar

530
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 3: with the technology and why I think it's good and

531
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: what the development plan is. And the critical thing is

532
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 3: first all you have to be satisfied on the scientific

533
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: validity and credibility, and then secondly you have to have

534
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 3: a management team that have the expertise in the domain

535
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 3: of the technology you're working on, and as Leslie just

536
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 3: touched upon, they must have clinical experience because what the

537
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 3: market wants is if the drug is not already in

538
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: a phase one the market wants you get into a

539
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 3: phase one clinical trial that is in humans asap. They

540
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 3: don't want to wait. So you do need to have

541
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: experts in clinical drug development, and there's not a lot

542
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: of those. There are in America, but they're less common

543
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 3: in Australia. So I would bring the broker in fairly

544
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 3: early in the piece and get them comfortable with it.

545
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 3: Then we would have a bunch of lawyers that I've

546
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 3: used on all my IPOs, and we would prepare a prospectus.

547
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 3: The management team that you're going to present at the

548
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 3: IPO would be closely involved in that and we'd write

549
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: the prospectus and when the time was right, everything was

550
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: ticked off, the AX had approved. You have to I

551
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 3: should have had it. You have to submit a preliminary

552
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: listing application to the AX where you set out why

553
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 3: this is going to be a viable business, because they

554
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 3: don't want to have companies being listed that fall apart,

555
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 3: you know, six or twelve months later, so they have

556
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: to give a whole lot on the management team and

557
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: what the business plan is. And once you get that

558
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 3: from the AX, that's really the green light to go.

559
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the process of going to shareholders new shareholders

560
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: to support the listing, because then you go and raise money.

561
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: Once you listen to you go off to raise more

562
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: money back to all listening to none, you go often

563
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: raise more money with shelves part of the process. And

564
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: you mentioned lawyers, et cetera. That's really more paid work

565
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: and process and a lot of stuff just comes straight

566
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 1: off the system. I wanted to be passable. This is

567
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: the value valuation because this is a good question. And

568
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: generally speaking, these endsies aren't making this business is not

569
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: making money at this stage. I mean it's still looking

570
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: for a second clinical trial or a clinical trial. So

571
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: you're you're not out there, you know, the local GP

572
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: or the St. Vincent's hospital down the road. It's not

573
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: the oncology departments not using this drug because there's a

574
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: new thing being developed, it's novel, it's brand new. How

575
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: do you what type of person organization do you have

576
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: to go to to get the valuation? Let's call it

577
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: endorsed or ticked off? And how do you work out

578
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: what the value is? Because you know, you're saying to

579
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: the new shows this and we want to raise five

580
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: million for that, we're going to give way twenty percent

581
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:07,719
Speaker 1: of the business.

582
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: And on that.

583
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: Basis the business worth blah. The enterprise value of the

584
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: business is worth x as an enterprise earlist, not based

585
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: on p and ls and profits and stuff, because you

586
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: aren't making any how do you do that?

587
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: Okay? So the valuing of a business pre IPO and

588
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 3: an IPO is an inexact science. Very so it's the

589
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 3: people that put the IPO or the company together want

590
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 3: to maximize the value.

591
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: Because they want to have the loose amount of ilution.

592
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: Correct, they want to have the biggest shaholding. At the

593
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 3: end of the day, the broker wants to price the

594
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: price the company, or value it at a level at

595
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: which they can sell it to their clients usually, and

596
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 3: so there's a little tension at the beginning between that.

597
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 3: But in all my IPOs, what I've done is I've

598
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 3: done a pre IPO raise, usually using a convertible note.

599
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 3: So and the convertible note allows them to convert at

600
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 3: say a twenty five percent discount to the IPO price.

601
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: And you might say to them, we've got to IPI

602
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 3: in six months, So they put the money in now.

603
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 3: And at the IPO, if the IPOs sayed a dollar,

604
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 3: they get their shares at seventy five cents.

605
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: They get their convertible note conversion at seventy five cents.

606
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: And so what's interesting about that, though, is so therefore

607
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: the person you've got to convince of the valuation is

608
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: a convertible night holder, and you use that as a proxy,

609
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: that valuation as a proxy for your list. Yeah, sort of,

610
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: or as a baseline at least. Yes, yes, you can say, well,

611
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: hang on, we just raised a million dollars of convertible notes.

612
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: At this valuation, we're now say million bucks. We now

613
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: want to list this entity at five million or this

614
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: business at five million because we've we have done the

615
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: following things. You know, we've improved the tech, and we've

616
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: advanced and we've done these trials and we've got these results, etc.

617
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: Is that what we're talking about.

618
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 3: Well, in my case, the convertible note raising is within

619
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 3: eyesight of an IPO because the convertible note holders want

620
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 3: to see the company listed quickly. They don't want to

621
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 3: I mean, this is not prescriptive. No other people's experiences different,

622
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 3: but mine was we did our IPOs within six months

623
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 3: or less of the convertible.

624
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: Temporal proximity between note issuance and share issuance in relation

625
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: to the the asex listening. So and that's do you

626
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: have to get Deloitte's a KPMG to say, yeah, pretty

627
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: comfortable with that. You how important is that process?

628
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 3: You don't get as valuation as such as what you're

629
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 3: referring to, but yeah, you need to sign off from

630
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 3: the auditors and all that sort of things confirming that

631
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 3: the forecast. Look, reason got to remember you're not doing

632
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 3: any forecasts on pforittability or sales, because these companies never

633
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 3: generate with one or two exceptions, they don't generate sales

634
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: because you generally license or partner or sell out to

635
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 3: big farmer in phase two down the track and they

636
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: wind up to do all the hard work and then

637
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: they take it and do the phase three studies. So

638
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 3: these companies don't really have sales forecasts or that sort

639
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 3: of thing. It's a cash flow forecast. In other words,

640
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: how how much will you spend? I mean they expect

641
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 3: you to. The ASEX expects you to demonstrate about two

642
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: years runway on the cash rats. Two years, so you

643
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 3: have to demonstrate that the way you've built the company

644
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 3: in terms of the management team and the clinical trials

645
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 3: and the burn and the manufacturing of the drug marries

646
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 3: up with about a twenty four month runway, okay.

647
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: Cash runway. And then and what are some of the

648
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: reporting requirements the ASEX has, say, let's look at it,

649
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: imagen now, because you have to ac quarterly cash reports. Yeah,

650
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: certainly what they call four c's, so and the objective

651
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: behind them four c's to make sure shareholders are fully

652
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: aware of the cash runway in other words, you're not

653
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: burning more than you originally forecast, or we don't have

654
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: to go back to the market.

655
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: We don't have any forecasts that they refer back to

656
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 3: because Imagene was listed nine years ago and it's got

657
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 3: one hundred and ten million dollars in the bank at

658
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: the moment, so it's got a lot of Money's we had.

659
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: Is that from? What is that from? From additional raisings?

660
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 3: You know, we've been very, very successful in raising money

661
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 3: at Imagene, very successful.

662
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: So how much how many more raisings have you done

663
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: since the original listing.

664
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: Oh look, in the first five first five years was

665
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 3: hand to mouth. You know, we were doing three or

666
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 3: four million dollar raises.

667
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: Then you know, that was a scrappy time.

668
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: And being grateful when we raised three or four million,

669
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 3: and then we got in and then you know, we

670
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 3: got into that period you talked about it pre COVID

671
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: where it was an era of free money. The market

672
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 3: was alive, bier tech was booming, We had some promising

673
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 3: data and people were very keen to invest, and we

674
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 3: raised big looks of money. I mean, we could do

675
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 3: eighty million in a raise. We did eighty million last year.

676
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 3: So the company's always been very, very popular with investors.

677
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 1: And so popularity has got a lot to do with trust,

678
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: and popularity has got a lot and trust's got a

679
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: lot to do with communication. How would you to communicate

680
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: at imaging, for example, I mean like, do the two

681
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: of you go off to see investors all the time?

682
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: Do you know who your major investors are? And what's

683
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 1: your what's your process of dealing with this?

684
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: Communication is very much key at imagen. We speak with

685
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: are probably top fifty, top one hundred on a fairly

686
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: frequent basis.

687
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: What we're talking about it we have four C or

688
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: after four C or every.

689
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: Month, all of it. Yeah, all the time.

690
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not stop.

691
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: We have a continuous disclosure rules that we follow. A

692
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 2: bye bye to.

693
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: Go beyond the continuous disclosure rules, I mean not you know,

694
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: if you found something interesting you got to put up

695
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: in the A six. I get that put and you're

696
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: sort of ringing out the guy from the fund manager

697
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: who's particularly interest say hey, you going to just sort

698
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 1: of catch up with you.

699
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 2: Sometimes, yes, we host lunches. I go into several you know,

700
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 2: investment offices and have a conversation. It's simple as sometimes

701
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: even answering the phone, or doing a presentation in a

702
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 2: in a video conference, et cetera. So all of the

703
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 2: all of the above.

704
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 3: We do four newsletters a year, we post on all

705
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 3: the social media sites. So yeah, it's not hard to

706
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 3: find out what the company's up to.

707
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:36,280
Speaker 1: And you do you do publications or publish in medical journals.

708
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think that's key. These are scientific matters and

709
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 2: the audience that we have inevitably is the pharmaceutical company,

710
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: and they understand science. So we do publications across and conferences,

711
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 2: major cancer conferences.

712
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you're in the news all the time.

713
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 2: Pretty consistently, trying in the news.

714
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: When I say news, I'm talking about your market news,

715
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: you know, like as you say, conferences and pharmaceutical and

716
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: pharmaceutical publications, and also probably more importantly, publishing in high

717
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 1: level journals where you can at least submitting things for

718
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: publication for peer review.

719
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 2: I mean absolute process. Absolutely, that's a must.

720
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. So yeah, I think that's you know, in your game,

721
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 1: because it's complex, do you it is a complex A

722
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: science is complex for a normal investor, how do you

723
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 1: ramp down the language that let's say, if I'm manager

724
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: who's got a fairly broad list of investments. Perhaps are

725
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: all health, but doesn't matter. It could be from you know,

726
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: toe fungus to can secure us or whatever. I mean,

727
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: how do you dumbed down? I don't say dumbed down as.

728
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: To word make it accessible.

729
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: That's a good word, very very politically correct. Dumb How

730
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: do you do that well?

731
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 2: So I think this is well. The process is is.

732
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 2: I talked to Paul quite a lot about certain certain

733
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: UH programs that we have in our company and how

734
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: to describe it. So the description has to be married

735
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: with it has to resonate with a person, It has

736
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: to be we have to use the words that folks understand.

737
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 2: So I think language becomes so very important. Description becomes

738
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: even more important because science is very difficult even to

739
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 2: another scientist. I think a particular science that assets that

740
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: you have or technology in the company is very difficult

741
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: for even a scientist to understand at times, and especially

742
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: how you're taking it through the drug development.

743
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: I mean pretty dense. I mean I don't mean a stus,

744
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: but really dancing the weeds like you're and you should be.

745
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: We're trying to cure cancer, right, so we are that,

746
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: but we understand that the market needs needs a simpler explanation.

747
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: Paul and I are constantly looking at new ways of

748
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 2: how to make our investors understand what we're doing. Yeah,

749
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:14,360
Speaker 2: so I've I've learned, and I've been very well trained

750
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: and taking a very difficult word and then lessening it

751
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 2: and making it much more accessible for our investment.

752
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: Bought medical thesaurus.

753
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's Paul Paul's medical thesaurus.

754
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you know you're because you gave me some

755
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: examples early on. Moved to a mess scuds, but you

756
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 1: actually gave me and you gave me the one about

757
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: the tailor's who and the Dave jonesuit. So they're very

758
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: good now analogies.

759
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 3: And that's a skill, yeah, because I think if you

760
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 3: present it in a way like a suit tailor made

761
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 3: or whatever, people immediately imagine it. I used to carry

762
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 3: a tennis ball, you know, yellow tennis ball around to

763
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,280
Speaker 3: presentations and I'd put it when we'd start the presentation,

764
00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 3: I'd put it on the table and everyone would look,

765
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 3: think what's he doing. And I'd pick it up and

766
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: I'd say, I want you to imagine this is a

767
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 3: breast cancer cell, and you see all the hairs on

768
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 3: the top of the cell, those little yellow furry things.

769
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 3: Their breast cancer receptors called her too. If you've got

770
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 3: lots of those on your breast cancer, the outlook is

771
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 3: no good. Now what have we got. We've got an

772
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 3: antibody that will kill that breast cancer cell. And I'd

773
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: gone to a toy shop with my daughter and I'd

774
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 3: bought the letter why an alphabet? Now? Why is what

775
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: an antibody sort of looks like? And I pick it up, Adam,

776
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 3: how can I see this? This is an antibody And

777
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 3: this antibody doesn't like her too, the little follicles on

778
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 3: the tennis ball, and I'd go and I'd stab the

779
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 3: tennis ball. Everyone got it, So yeah, I think I

780
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 3: think rendering it very simple with some very easy to

781
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 3: understand the illustrations makes a difference.

782
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 1: It's pretty cool. It's really important, And I think the

783
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: word uses rendering is taking the science and making it digestible.

784
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, investors are vestors, and

785
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,359
Speaker 1: they don't want anything that's too hard because they've got

786
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: to talk to somebody as well. There might be a

787
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: family office. They've got to talk to their their you know,

788
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: the people who are directing him, they're giving them instructions.

789
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 1: It could be just a normal family. It could be

790
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: a fund manager. It could be a small fund manager

791
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: in particular. And if it's complicate, complex, they to somebody

792
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: said they don't want to They usually don't want to

793
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: know about it unless there's something unbelievably brilliant. It's the

794
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: biggest market in the world. And just to finish off

795
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: on this, guys, you're the last part of all this,

796
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: so you continue to do your clinical trials. You can

797
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: continue to develop lots of different drugs for lots of

798
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: different types of cancer. The you know, when you have

799
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: these businesses and you get them listed, you've got to

800
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: work out where your exit is. It's always got to

801
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 1: be an exit, especially when you're a deal maker like you.

802
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: If you're doing you're finding your funding, your building, and

803
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: you're exiting. That's sort of basically the process. What's the

804
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 1: ultimate exit exit for this? Because it's not a set

805
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: of be selling drugs to business.

806
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 3: We're not going to go out and hire sixty foot

807
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 3: soldiers in America to sell drugs to hospitals and doctors.

808
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 3: So we will find a partner as.

809
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 2: We yes, so we'll look for a pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical company

810
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 2: or a big biotech company that wants to partner or

811
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: completely commercialize our product.

812
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 1: So we're talking about some just ultimately you're talking about

813
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: is that someone like Peiser? Is that what you're looking at?

814
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 2: The type advisor former company GSK are the big pharmaceutical

815
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: company down to Maderna or other biotech companies that have

816
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 2: recently come.

817
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: Up, GSK being Glaxo Smith clients. So given that's the case,

818
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: that's your ultimate audience. Are you always building behind the

819
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: scenes with behind the scenes language and behind the scenes

820
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: content something that will appeal to those organizations. Are you

821
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: continually peppering them?

822
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 2: And you asked a question earlier about publication and conferences,

823
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 2: and that's exactly right because that's their language. Science says

824
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 2: their language, and that's not the language that I can

825
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 2: use with investors, but I certainly use those language with

826
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 2: pharmaceutical companies via publication, via conferences bia meetings.

827
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: So that's important. So the playground of the ultimate buyer,

828
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: of the ultimate exit, you have to be pushing stuff

829
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: into that particular playground. And the playground you're saying of

830
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: the you know, the various biotechs and pharmaceutical companies is

831
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 1: the publication we're in it because they must have teams

832
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: of people reading.

833
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: These That's exactly that's their sandbox.

834
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 3: There is another method by which small biotechs put themselves

835
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 3: in front of big farmers. So there are major biotech

836
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 3: conferences around the world. The big farmer companies will often

837
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 3: take a whole floor in a hotel and put all

838
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 3: their experts in one room. With cancer, they might be

839
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 3: four different experts, and there'll be someone with seeing a

840
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 3: central nervous system metabolic disease, and they'll just sit there

841
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 3: all day from eight thirty in the morning listening and

842
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 3: you'll do a speed dating lead. You pitch and you

843
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: come in and you've got half an hour to tell

844
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 3: the person what you're about. So yeah, they actively look

845
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 3: for technologies. But that's all backed up by what Leslie's

846
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 3: saying in terms of our presentations, our articles that get

847
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 3: in peer review journals, and obviously we have contacts with

848
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 3: everyone in all the major pharmaceutical companies.

849
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: So basically what you're saying to me, Paul, is that

850
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: is about is a process right from the very day

851
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: where you meet the lawyers that you usually deal with

852
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: the probably the brokers. You have a term of brokers,

853
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: different types of brokers you deal with for different types

854
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: of asset classes. And then the process doesn't stop there.

855
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: The process continues through the development, through actually talking to

856
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: your shareholders, your current shaholders, to make sure they continue

857
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: to support you. And then the process also continues in

858
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 1: terms of who your ultimate takeout might be, whether that

859
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: happens or it doesn't matter. It might not be the

860
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 1: ultimate takeout. I mean, anything could happen. You know, you

861
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: might get taken over by by tech. They might not

862
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: be trying to buy the technology so much. They just

863
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: want to build, just become a bigger conglomerate. But the

864
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: process starts and never finishes. It just continues on irrespective

865
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: of whether you listen on the ASEX or not. The

866
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: ASEX helps you get there, get the patient capital because

867
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: you called a patient capital right at the very beginning,

868
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,879
Speaker 1: which is probably the most important thing. The shareholders that

869
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: you appeal to raise the five million dollars in the

870
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: case of imagen Imagen, that was explained to these individuals

871
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: that this has got to be patient. You don't expect

872
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: me to be giving a profit at the end of

873
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: the year. And paying a dividend. So as long as

874
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: they have that expectation upfront and you continue to feed

875
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: them the developments and the advancements, and these are all

876
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: the milestones we've told you about, we're hitting them or

877
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: we're getting close to them, then they'll be happy. Were

878
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: happy enough? Put it that way. What just as a

879
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 1: final thing, Paul, you might be able to help me

880
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: out here. What was it that sort of people got

881
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 1: up got a bit angry about biotechs that happened during

882
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,479
Speaker 1: I think it was during the COVID period around that period,

883
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 1: but biotechs went a little bit off the board. You

884
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: guys didn't You guys killed it is still killing it.

885
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 1: But what was what happened?

886
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 3: Well, I think it was part of the general meltown

887
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 3: in the markets. If you remember twenty January twenty two opened,

888
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 3: there'd been a wholesale sell off across the world. The

889
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 3: era of free money was over. Interest rates went to

890
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,399
Speaker 3: five percent, Technology was completely shunned, and biotech was put

891
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 3: under the same umbrella as that, and nobody wanted to

892
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 3: know us. So it was a difficult It's been a look,

893
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 3: it is much better now. In the last couple of

894
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 3: months has been some extraordinary raises. You know, there's been

895
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 3: Clarity raised a huge amount of money. Opthia raised a

896
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 3: couple one hundred million. Might of my other companies last

897
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 3: week raised seventy million. Botanics I think Cannabis Company raised fifty.

898
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: So there are definitely, as they say, green shoots appearing.

899
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 3: So the market's changed a little bit, which is great,

900
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 3: but I think we just fell out of bed with

901
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 3: everyone else. I mean it was universal across the US markets.

902
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 3: In Europe, the small biotechs had a very hard time.

903
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:21,959
Speaker 1: And I have one final question for a few, Paul,

904
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 1: but how important is it when you go in these

905
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: environments that is, to raise money from whatever market you're

906
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: trying to raise money, But in this case we're trying

907
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: to raise the money from a particular capital mIRC, which

908
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: is a listed capital market. How important is it to

909
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,879
Speaker 1: understand generally speaking, global liquidity and where because the money

910
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: always finds its way to a certain asset class, It

911
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: just has this habit of doing it. And during the

912
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: COVID period when he just raised aero point one of

913
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 1: a percent here in Australia, that liquid is looking for

914
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: anything there with a bit of promise in it because

915
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: putting your money under positive point one percent of their great.

916
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: How do you how do you, Paul, keep up with

917
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 1: being close to where liquidity is global liquidity and domestic

918
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 1: liquidity is going. How do you follow? Because liquidity changed,

919
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: As you said in twenty twenty two, when your just

920
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 1: rates went to you put your money in bank five percent.

921
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: I'll put my money at bank of five percent. Why

922
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 1: would I go chasing and biotech. I've got to wait

923
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: years to get my money out. Moss, just hang around

924
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: for a while and get five percent promum. I got

925
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: the money in the bank. I'm happy. I'm relaxed for

926
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:27,959
Speaker 1: a couple of years. I might come back into the market.

927
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: How do you sort of plot where liquidity is going?

928
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 3: I think that's a pretty difficult job to be honest,

929
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 3: But you've got to be a student of it.

930
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

931
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 3: The problem we have in Australia is ten years ago

932
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 3: biotech was not an established asset class. It was highly speculative.

933
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,479
Speaker 3: It was like drilling for oil or something out west.

934
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 3: So there was a handful of people in stoves that invested.

935
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 3: It's still not an established asset class, but there are

936
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 3: five to ten times more buyers of biotech stocks than

937
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 3: they were in those days. Of course, in America, it

938
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 3: is definitely an established asset class. There's thousands of analysts,

939
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 3: there's dozens and dozens, maybe hundreds of life science buyotech

940
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 3: funds that specialize, so you know, that's a great audience

941
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 3: in terms of li liquidity. You know, sometimes in Australia

942
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 3: you can raise money and you can't raise it in

943
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 3: the US. There not always in Kilter, I've had that

944
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 3: a couple of times. But you know, we Leslie and

945
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 3: I are in the States, well probably every six weeks.

946
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 3: I'm plugged into pretty well every major life science investment

947
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 3: bank in the States. I know, probably the top fifty

948
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 3: buiotech buyers of stocks in the United States. So we

949
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 3: get a good feel and you can tell. I mean,

950
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 3: if you went out in the middle of the COVID

951
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 3: regime when the markets were in the nuclear winter, trying

952
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 3: to do a road show and get more than five

953
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 3: or six meetings, you're probably lucky. So actuates, but at

954
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 3: the moment it is a very positive market.

955
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: So it would be fair to say then it's again

956
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: about communication, communicating with those most likely or the usual suspects,

957
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 1: making sure that you're always in communication. So you know

958
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: what their appetite is, you know how many. But they've

959
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 1: just raised and they need to invest. It's just communicating,

960
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: keeping in touch with people, roadshows again, publications, turning up

961
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: to events, just making sure you're in the game right.

962
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, they're only buying

963
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 3: if you've got convincing data.

964
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: And a good story around it.

965
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 2: But the data, have the data.

966
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: You've got to have the data, which means you've got

967
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: you have got to keep developing absolutely, because you can't

968
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: just go bullshit everybody. You've got to keep developing and

969
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: actually having And.

970
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 2: That's what I love to do. I want to develop

971
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 2: medication for a cancer patience one day. I think it's

972
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 2: a thrill to think about one of our products becoming

973
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 2: a drug one day.

974
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: What a great combination. Thanks very much for coming on

975
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: to going public. Thank you, thank you, mist welcome