1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part two of my chat with Tracy Hawk. 15 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: In part one, Tracy talked about a life and how 16 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: a person who called himself Max Tavita came into her 17 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 1: life after her divorce. In Part two, we're going to 18 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: discover pretty much everything that Max had told Tracy that 19 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: led her to fall in love with him become part 20 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: of her life was in fact a lie. Where we 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: left part one was Tracy had been in a relationship 22 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: with the person she knew as Max. For about eighteen months, 23 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: she couldn't get in contact with him. She was worried 24 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: about him, and then her good friend Kath contacted her 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: and said, I think you need to have a look 26 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: at this. At that point in time, Tracy looked at 27 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,839 Speaker 1: the link that Cath had sent to her and found 28 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: that the love of a life, Max had been arrested, 29 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: and she then found out that he wasn't in fact Max. 30 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: He was known by another name of Hamish McLaren. So, Tracy, 31 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: welcome back to part two. 32 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: Thanks. 33 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: I've just tried to abbreviate this story. I like the 34 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: fact that you're laughing, and we talked off Mike that 35 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: sometimes you've just got to laugh at things because otherwise 36 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: it just eats you up inside and you're just going 37 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: to go, Okay, well this happened, believe it or not. 38 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: This is what happened. So you've got your life set up, 39 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: what you thought was pointed in the perfect direction. You'd 40 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: found love again, you had your beautiful daughter, you had 41 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: your career going. Everything was tick tick tick, and then 42 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you find out that the person 43 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: that had been in a relationship with for the past 44 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: day then months. Wasn't in fact that person? Do you 45 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: want to take it from there? Yeah? 46 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: So I saw the video and started talking to the 47 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: detectives who are working on the case, and I found 48 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 2: out pretty quickly that Max Devita was in fact Hamish 49 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: McLaren and the extent of his crimes and what he 50 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: had done. And that started the process essentially for me, 51 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 2: for unraveling the previous eighteen months of my life, which 52 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 2: had been completely fictitious with this man who had told 53 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: me lie after lie after lie and in the process 54 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 2: stolen my life's savings. So I was very quickly forced 55 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: to fall out of love with him. Took me nearly 56 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 2: eighteen months to fall in love with him, and then 57 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: within twenty four hours I had to fall out of 58 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 2: love with him. 59 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,119 Speaker 1: Can we just break that down and we'll put the 60 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: finances aside and the betrayal, But when we talk emotionally, 61 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: you don't fall in love overnight. You invest in love, 62 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: the builds, and then for it to just cut off 63 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: like that, it's painful for you. I would imagine it. 64 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 2: Was like a death, and I've experienced grief associated with 65 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: death before, and some of those emotions were incredibly familiar 66 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: to me, and in some ways that's the only way 67 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 2: I could deal with it because I had to. I 68 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 2: really had to get my head around very quickly the 69 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: fact that this man that I was in love with 70 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: in fact never existed. So to view him as dead 71 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: in my mind was the only way I could cope 72 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: with the fact that I'd been so horrendously deceived, And 73 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 2: so that was one thing, But that comes with a 74 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: lot of grief as well, because somebody who is so 75 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: present in your life, that you talk to multiple times 76 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: a day, that you're building a future with that you 77 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 2: very much see as part of you know, the rest 78 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 2: of your life is suddenly gone, like they are when 79 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 2: they die. And the grief around that was was really 80 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: odd because I was grieving a relationship that wasn't real relationship, 81 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: but it felt real. And then I felt bad for 82 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: grieving a relationship like that because he was a criminal. 83 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 2: So it was just so complex and so multilayered, and 84 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 2: yet at the same time, I was, you know, having 85 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: to face the fact that I'd given him my life 86 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: savings and I was left with nothing apart from my income, 87 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: my monthly income, and having to do all these very 88 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: practical things like spending hours and hours with the investigators 89 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: and the detectives putting my statement to together, spending hours 90 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: on the phone with the ATO talking to them about 91 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: my non compliance uperanuation fund and what that was. Working 92 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 2: on a fraudulent tax return that he had done for 93 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: me that may or may not have been fraudulent. I 94 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: didn't know. And you know, I did have some time 95 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: off work. I had a very supportive employer at the time, 96 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: but I couldn't lose my job. It was my only 97 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: financial lifeline. And I had a huge job, a huge team. 98 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: I had to get back to work, and so there 99 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: were all of these kind of conflicting things that were 100 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: going on in my life that I was having to 101 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 2: deal with, And yeah, it's safe to say it took 102 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: its toll. 103 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: What you just explained there. I can't even see how 104 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: you cape with that. There were so many things going 105 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: on in your life, and you've got your daughter, the 106 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 1: impact that it has on her, and we'll talk about 107 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: that way. How you break the news to her because 108 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: he had become part of her life and he's betrayal. 109 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: So was what was your priority to find out what 110 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: happened to your finances? Was that your first first priority. 111 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: It was really to deal with the detectives and the 112 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: investigators because they were putting this case together. So people 113 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: were coming forward, left, right and center after the crime 114 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: Stoppers video, So it was really that was a priority, 115 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: and that took a lot of time and effort and 116 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: energy because exactly the way you were asking the question, 117 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: tell me about your first date. They wanted to know 118 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 2: everything right from the beginning. How did you meet, What 119 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: day did you meet? When did you go on dates? 120 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: Who paid for the dates? What did you eat on 121 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 2: the dates? Where did you go then? What car do 122 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: you remember the number plate? What text messages have you 123 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: got that you can share with us? What documentation did 124 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 2: he provide? What fraudulent reports did he give you? When 125 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: did you give the money? Where are your bank? Statements? 126 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: So lot I like them. They're the exact questions that 127 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: should be asked, but that takes time. That takes time 128 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: not just to sit down and actually type the statement 129 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: or get the statement taken. It's getting all that information, yeah. 130 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: And remembering and recalling and trawling back through emails and 131 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: text messages and what's happen? 132 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: And the thing that SAIDs me, tracing the person that 133 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: you were relying on in your life at that time 134 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: is no longer there because he doesn't exist, and he's 135 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: a person that scores that. That's right, the sense of betrayal. 136 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was very much on my own 137 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: at that point, and I knew to do it justice. 138 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: I had to get all of that information, and I 139 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 2: wanted to do the best job I could, because you know, 140 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: part of me was also thinking, if I get all 141 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: this information, then maybe it will help to find the money, 142 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 2: and maybe I can work out what's actually happened. And 143 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 2: you know obviously that you know, we know now that 144 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: there was no money returned, but at the time I 145 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: was really trying to unpick what had happened, because what 146 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: I believed was real for eighteen months or sixteen months 147 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: was actually not. And so, and this is one thing 148 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: that you know, really interesting thing about our brains is 149 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: that we don't like unfinished stories. And so we either 150 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: make up the ending, which I couldn't do because I 151 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: didn't know the pieces. No, I didn't have the pieces, 152 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: or you live in this state of ambiguity where your 153 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: brain cannot actually rest until you have this story compartmentalized 154 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: and you have the full story, and because I couldn't 155 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: get any answers, I was just I could not rest, 156 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: I could not sleep, I could not eat. I lost 157 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 2: six kilos in three weeks, and I'm not a huge human, 158 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: so that's a lot, a lot, And it was just, 159 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: it was so discombobulating, Like I just can't even sometimes 160 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: describe how confused I was during that time. I was 161 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 2: highly anxious because you know, I didn't know if he 162 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 2: was going to get bail, and I didn't know if 163 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 2: he was still in jail. Like there was a lot 164 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 2: going on. I became depressed because I was thinking about 165 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: my future and how much I had lost and how 166 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: I was going to make that back. And then of 167 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: course life goes on and you have a child that 168 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: needs to get to school every day, you have a 169 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: job that needs taking care of, and you somehow have 170 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 2: to find the energy and the will to get out 171 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: of bed and move forward, and all of that going 172 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: on at the same time. Was just it was a lot. 173 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: It was a lot. 174 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: I just in all the fact that you got through it, 175 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: because I'm sure there would have been times when you think, 176 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: I just don't want to be here, but you've got 177 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: your daughter and everything else going on in your life. 178 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: You're dealing to the police because they're the ones I 179 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: would imagine that you were hoped to get some answers 180 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: or some understanding, because where else where else do you turn. 181 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: In conversations I've had with you, you were very impressed 182 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: by the police. Officers will mention their names. It's weak credits. 183 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, the lead detective Tom said, was incredible, very young, 184 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: and he had come across this case. He had landed 185 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 2: on his desk and it was a reasonable amount of 186 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: money and he wanted to look into it. And I 187 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 2: think from what I've learned and you might be able 188 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: to give insight to this too. But fraud is very, 189 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: very difficult. Not many copies like to touch fraud because 190 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 2: it's a lot of paperwork and it's complex, and it's 191 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: quite hard to prove fraud because in essence, people have 192 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: freely given their money, you know, under deceit, but given money. 193 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: So it's quite hard to prove. 194 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: I believe it's complex because quite often people come in 195 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: and report something and you look at it from a 196 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: purely legalistic point of view, and that you could say, well, 197 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: it's a civil matter, it's a dispute between two parties 198 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: and it should be resolved civilly. Therefore police have no 199 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: position in there. But it sounds like you had a 200 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: couple of young Yeah, highly made of the detectives that 201 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: took the different view on something that should be explored. 202 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: So full credit, but yeah, it can happen, and not 203 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: critical of police. There is that ambiguity between is it 204 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: the civil matter or a criminal matter. And I know 205 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: as a young detective, quite often you've got given a 206 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: lot of frauds where you cut your teeth or learnt 207 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: your trade, and they are confusing and quite often when 208 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: they gave the courts, you don't really think the punishment 209 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: fits the crime. Like when someone's had their life savings 210 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: taken from them and we'll talk about other victims later on, 211 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: it destroys their life. They'd you've worked twenty years, your superannuation, everything, 212 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: every hour you went to work, you were accumulating your 213 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: superannuation and that's just been taken from you. I would 214 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: imagine there was some low points, some low points where 215 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: did you have support network. I bet your CAF came 216 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: on the same and I hope she didn't say I 217 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: told you so. 218 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: No, Cathoo would never say that and there were other 219 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: friends that probably thought he was a little quirky as well. 220 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: But you know, so no, I have a very tight 221 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: group of girlfriends who just kind of rallied around me. 222 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 2: I think Kath you know, stayed at my apartment for 223 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 2: a few nights. She slept in my bed and she 224 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: just held me, you know, And so I had some 225 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: incredible support at this point. I not very many people 226 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: knew what had happened, and I wanted to keep that 227 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: close because I didn't know what the outcome was going 228 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 2: to be. Obviously, it was such a huge thing that 229 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: had happened to me, and you know, then you layer 230 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: on all the embarrassment and shame and all of that 231 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 2: stuff as well. I wasn't kind of prepared to talk 232 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 2: about it broadly. So I did have a very close 233 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: support network of people. But of course, you know, when 234 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 2: anything big happens, you know, it's very acute and intense 235 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: at the beginning, and people are very supportive, but then 236 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: life goes on, you know, and that's just the way, 237 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: that's just the way it works. And so I was 238 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: sort of left her to figure out what I was 239 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: going to do. But you're right, there were some incredibly 240 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: low points, points where you know, I would wake up 241 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 2: in the morning and remember what had happened and just think, oh, 242 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 2: I've got to do a whole. I've got to do 243 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: a whole another day. And you know, the thought of that, 244 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: you know, it just felt like this big, gray, heavy 245 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: blanket just weighing really heavily on me. And I would 246 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: have been quite happy to fly in bed all day 247 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: and just cry. And you know, we spoke about my 248 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 2: daughter just before, but I made a decision very early 249 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: on that there would be no tears at the dinner table, 250 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: and I wasn't going to tell her what happened. And 251 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 2: that was another reason I kept it very quiet, because 252 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: you know, how do you explain a non compliance superannuation 253 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: and a fraudulent criminal boyfriend to a six year. 254 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: Old Well, I was going to ask that question, how 255 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: he had become part of her life, or the person 256 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: we knew was Max had become a part of her life. 257 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: She would be asking questions. 258 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: Well, interestingly, she didn't, you know, And it's a funny story, 259 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: talk about laughing. It was about I think about nine 260 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: months after we were doing the shower routine at night 261 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: and she turns to me and she says, oh, Mom, 262 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: we haven't heard from Max in a while. I just thought, 263 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 2: I said, nah, he's been really busy with work, Sweatie, 264 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: It's all good. And I just thought to myself silently, 265 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: you've done a good job. Trace you've kept it from her, 266 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: you know. And that was my intention back then, because 267 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: obviously it's very difficult to describe what had happened. I 268 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: didn't want her to worry either about him as a 269 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: person or the fact we didn't have any money or 270 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 2: anything like that. She was so young, and I thought 271 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: to myself in that moment nine months later, she'd never 272 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: asked a question because she didn't actually see him very often. 273 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: It was the odd holiday here and there, but on 274 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: a week to week basis, he was just a guy 275 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: on the phone. And of course she was at school 276 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: all day. And this is the wonderful thing about children 277 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: is their life is the center of the universe. Don't 278 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: give a shit about. 279 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: Us day, you know, friend at school, Yeah. 280 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: That's it. And and the fact that I think I 281 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: just carried on was you know, it was. And I 282 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: think having having something outside of yourself that's bigger than 283 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 2: yourself is often the thing that gets. 284 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: You through that's an interesting point, beare. 285 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 2: And I didn't have a backstop at home. It's just me. 286 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 2: So who was going to make her lunch and get 287 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 2: her to school and get her two activities? If I 288 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 2: was a mess in beddle day, no one. And I 289 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: think that's what helped me through. And there was some 290 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 2: other tricks that I learned through my psychologist that was, 291 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: you know things like that moment when you wake up 292 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 2: and you think I can't get through another day. You 293 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: just break everything down into the smallest pieces so that 294 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: every time you achieve that small thing, you get a 295 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: dopamine hit. So I go, okay, what do I need 296 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: to do first? Okay, you just need to sit up 297 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 2: and put your feet on the floor. I can do that. 298 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: So I did that, and then I was like, okay, 299 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 2: I'm going to get to the kitchen and make myself 300 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: a cup of tea because tea makes everything better in 301 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: the morning. And I did that, and I went, oh, 302 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 2: well done, Trace like you've got to the kitchen. And 303 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 2: I know this sounds so banal, but it is literally 304 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 2: breaking down my day like that, And that's how I 305 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: got through. And I think if I had a thought 306 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: in the morning, Okay, I've got to get up, get 307 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: the kid to school. Go run a team of people 308 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: at eBay, deal with the MD go do this, run 309 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: a campaign, cash a bus home, get her from daycare, 310 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: take her to activities, make dinner, do the homework. If 311 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: I had have thought about that in the morning, I 312 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't have gotten out of bed overwhelmed. And you have 313 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 2: these little dopamine hits. By doing the smallest things that 314 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: over time, it gives you confidence that you can get 315 00:16:58,920 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 2: through another day. 316 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: Okay. It's interesting the way that you describe that, and 317 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people could take a lot 318 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: away from that. Those days that you wake up and 319 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 1: you just overwhelmed. What's the first thing you've got to do. 320 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: You've got to get out of bed, stupid to sit up? Yeah, okay, 321 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: and just break it down. So let's take it. Say 322 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: two months after what's happened, he's in custody, you still 323 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: haven't got answers, You're confused. When do you start to 324 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: realize you weren't he's only victim. 325 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: To be honest, it wasn't for a very very long time. 326 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: I mean I knew I wasn't the only victim. I 327 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 2: knew they were working with a lot of victims, but 328 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: the detail surrounding that, though no it was illegal, it 329 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 2: was a legal case of course, So there wasn't a 330 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 2: lot of information. There was just like things comments like 331 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: there are multiple victims, it's millions of dollars. They're the 332 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 2: sort of answers that I got. Obviously, I was busy 333 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: trying to piece together who this man was by going 334 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: into the internet. Now I had his real name, so 335 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: I was doing a lot of that, and there was 336 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 2: still some sort of things that I had to provide, 337 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: like you know, dealing with the ATO and unwinding the. 338 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: Tax claim. 339 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, the non compliance super Fund, all of those things. 340 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 2: So those things went on for a long time. It 341 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: wasn't until we went to the plea hearing, which I'm 342 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: going to say was more than a year after he 343 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: was arrested, and not long after I met Greg bear Up, and. 344 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: Could we just say people understand who Greg bear Up is. 345 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: He's a journalist, a very decent person. We both speak 346 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: very highly of him, Award winning journalist. Seat we added 347 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: that Greg he'd like that, but he was a person 348 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: that did the who the Hell is Hamish? Podcast? So 349 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: when we're referring to Greg, that's who we're talking about. 350 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's actually really good mates with Kath. 351 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: That figures. I could the way you've described Kath and 352 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: I know Greg, I could imagine them getting there. Curious minds, 353 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: good buddies. 354 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 2: And Kath had encouraged me to meet Greg after this 355 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: had happened, and I wasn't in a place emotionally or 356 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: mentally to be able to do that, and so I 357 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: didn't meet him for quite a long time. And then 358 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: one day, about a year after Hamish was arrested, I 359 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: woke up one morning and thought, I'm going to go 360 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: talk to Greg and see what it's got to say. 361 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: And meeting him and telling him my story, he was just, 362 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, his eyes were wide open and his mouth 363 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: was on the table and he just couldn't believe what 364 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: had happened. And around the same time, Hamish's play hearing 365 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: was coming up, and at this point we didn't know 366 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: whether he was going to play guilty or not. And 367 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: Greg said to me, do you want me to come 368 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: with you? I said yes please, And Cath came, and 369 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 2: I had another girlfriend come and they were like the 370 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 2: tiger moms around me, and of course Greg was there, 371 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 2: with his notepad. He was so fascinated and we were 372 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: the only people in the courtroom. 373 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that shocked you. I remembered how it was mentioned 374 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: in the book that was. 375 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 2: No investigators weren't there was no family there, there were 376 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 2: no other victims there. Now I don't know what they 377 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: or knew I think going. 378 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: On, we've caught the fact that you've mentioned that. I 379 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: think victims are sometimes or people involved in court matters 380 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: because there's processes that go through, and sometimes people that 381 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: know courts know that there's not going to be a 382 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: lot mentioned there. It's going to you're going to sit 383 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: around all day and it's going to take two minutes, 384 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: and then then the matters heard before we get into 385 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: the court matters and what he was charged with. I 386 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: would imagine that was going If I was in your situation, 387 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: I'd be desperate to have a conversation going. Yeah, a 388 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: thousand questions that you would have to ask of him. 389 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: Is that what was going through your mind? Did you 390 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: have questions? Or is it almost you've cut it off? 391 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 1: What's I'm not even interested what he's got to say, 392 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: because I couldn't trust anything he's got to say. 393 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: Well, all of that but I did actually talk to 394 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: him after he was arrested, talk us through that. So 395 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: I had multiple conversations with him. He got my phone 396 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: number and he called me from jail, and I'd never 397 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: received a phone call from anyone. 398 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: In jail before Col's recorded. 399 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 2: That call's been recorded. Do you accept it? You get 400 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: six minutes? I mean, it certainly wasn't on my vision 401 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: board growing up, but here I am. And I took 402 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 2: the calls because I was so desperate for information. And 403 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 2: this was in the first couple of months after he 404 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,959 Speaker 2: was arrested, and he called and he was sort of, 405 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: you know, very chummy with me. I guess, babe, tea, 406 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 2: you know all of this. And I was just peppering 407 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 2: him with questions because you know, the police couldn't tell 408 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,120 Speaker 2: me anything, his family wouldn't talk to me. I had 409 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: no answers, and so I thought maybe I could get 410 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: the answers from him. What is your real name, what 411 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 2: is your identity? Are your parents alive? What about your sister? 412 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: Where did you live? What's this? What happened? Where is 413 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: the money? You know? I had so many questions for him, 414 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 2: and he was just so off handish with me, you know, 415 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: it's just a name, Tea, don't worry about a name. 416 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 2: It's just a name, but it's your identity. It's who 417 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 2: you said you were for the whole time we were together. 418 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 2: You know, I don't know who you are, like, who 419 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: are you? It's just a name. 420 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: He's still still commun you or trying the con. 421 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 2: Wise in there no level of compassion or empathy, and 422 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 2: so these conversations, you know, we had a few conversations 423 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: over the time. Of course I couldn't ring him. He 424 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:30,479 Speaker 2: would ring me, and I pretty quickly realized that I 425 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 2: wasn't going to get anything from him that I could trust. 426 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 2: And then the letters started. So he sent me five 427 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: letters over the time, and they were, you know, musings 428 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 2: about how tough things were for him in jail and 429 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 2: how long it took him to get a pen, and 430 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: how none of the food was edible and poor baby. 431 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 2: I feel so sorry for him, and you know, and 432 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: then you know, a whole bunch of rambling memories about 433 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 2: things that we had done to elicit a level of nostalgia. 434 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: I guess for me about those good times like paddleboarding it, 435 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 2: you know, Tamarama and the times he spent in Byron 436 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 2: and oh, you know what we ate, what we drank 437 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: like just memories really, And then it moved on to 438 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 2: him really encouraging me to go and see him and 439 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: visit him. And I saw these communications, these letters, in 440 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 2: these phone calls, as you know, it was like he 441 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: was dangling a three hundred and seventeen thousand dollars carrot 442 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: in front of my face. And of course there was 443 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 2: a part of me that wanted to go and see 444 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: him and see if I could get that money back, 445 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 2: because I'd lost everything, and you know, but I quickly 446 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: realized that there was absolutely no way that I could 447 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 2: ever trust anything that came out of his mouth, and 448 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: it was likely that it was all just going to 449 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: be another lie, and so it was just a waste 450 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: of time, just a big fat waste of time. 451 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: It sounds like an obvious thing to come to the realization, 452 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: but I can also understand why it would be harder 453 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: to do than to harder to just cut him off 454 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: without at least trying to get answers. But it sounds 455 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: like he was just still conning and manipulating and trying 456 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: to control the narrative. And that's the what I call it, 457 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: the sickening side of fraudsters is that they've always got 458 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: an excuse. They're always trying to manipulate. Even when they're caught, 459 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: you don't get them to Yeah. I don't know if 460 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: it would have helped. But if he fell on his 461 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: sword and said, look, I can't help it, just a 462 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: con artist, you're better off forgetting about me, blah blah blah. 463 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: I'm sorry I deceived you some acknowledgment like that, but 464 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: you've got nothing like that. No, it's just a name. 465 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. Actually, he's got a point there. What 466 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: are you want about Tracy? What are you winging about it? 467 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: It's just a name, Hamish, Max, whoever, whoever I feel 468 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: like being that day. Okay, so you've had the communications, 469 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: When did you start to see some light? Like the 470 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: world would have been pretty dark when it first happened. 471 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: At what point did you say, okay, i'm seeing I'm 472 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: making progress. I can see some light at the end 473 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: of the tunnel. 474 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: To be honest, I think it was after the plea 475 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 2: hearing that Greg came along too. So in getting back 476 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 2: to that keep the charges. Yes, so he played guilty, 477 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 2: which was great in a sense because I knew then 478 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have to go through a core process and 479 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: you know all of that. It just have some downsides 480 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: as well. You know, you don't get to make a 481 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 2: victim impact statement, you don't get to face him head on. 482 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: In that session, they went through a document which was 483 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 2: called the Statement of Facts, and we didn't you know, 484 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: it wasn't spoken about in detail, it was just it 485 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 2: was quite legal. And Hamish was there. Hamish appeared that day. 486 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 2: He came up from the from the bottom and well 487 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: I knew him as Hamish at that point. I know, 488 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 2: it's always so confusing, which we just interchanged the names. 489 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 2: But he came out from underneath and he was sitting 490 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 2: in that glass box and he was flanked by two 491 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: bodyguards and he was in his prison greens and I 492 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 2: just kept staring at him. He wouldn't look at me, 493 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: and I was flanked by my Tiger moms and Greg 494 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: and we went through that sitting and that hearing and 495 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 2: they talked about this document called the Statement of Facts, 496 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 2: and afterwards and he went away downstairs. The guards took 497 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: me away. The DPP, who was acting on behalf of 498 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: the victims, came up to me and said, I believe 499 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 2: you're a victim. I'm really sorry about what's happened. I'll 500 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 2: be acting on behalf of all of you. And I said, 501 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 2: you know, thank you. Is there a chance we can 502 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 2: have a copy of that document? And there was a 503 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: hesitation to give that to me, and then Greg flashed 504 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 2: his journalist badge and we had a copy in a 505 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: hot minute, and we went across to a cafe opposite 506 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 2: and that is the moment where I realized the extent 507 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 2: of what he had done. The other fifteen victims were 508 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: listed how much money they had lost, under which circumstances 509 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 2: they had lost them and Greg and I just poured 510 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: over this document and that's when Greg said to me, 511 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: this is a podcast. This is non article in the 512 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: Weekend Astray and this is a podcast. And that's where 513 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: it started. And so Greg got the go ahead to 514 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 2: investigate for the better part of the next year and 515 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 2: write the podcast. Who they held is Hamish And as 516 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 2: he was doing that, he would keep me informed and 517 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: he would tell me the things that he was finding out, 518 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: or he'd come across the name and he said, have 519 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: you heard who? Have you heard this person? 520 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 1: Was he? 521 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 2: Who's this person? And I would give him my version 522 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: of it if I had heard of them, and he 523 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 2: would put the pieces of the puzzle together. It was 524 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 2: an investigative piece, of course. And so that is where 525 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 2: the sky opened up for me because I started to 526 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: get answers and that unfinished story that I had in 527 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: my head where I couldn't rest started to become clear. 528 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: And Greg was the person that would call me and go, oh, 529 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 2: my god, guess what I just found out. He's got 530 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 2: a wife and Greg's got it. I mean, you know 531 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 2: Greg as well, he's got a great sense of humor. 532 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: He's very caring and compassionate, but he's really funny as well. Man, 533 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: so his sense of humor actually really resonates with me. 534 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 2: He's got a wife, really, oh that's interesting, and you know, 535 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 2: he'd tell me a bit about that and then that story, 536 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: and I said, can I can you ask her if 537 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 2: it's okay if I talk to her. He provided me 538 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 2: with her phone number and we connected and we've become 539 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: firm friends through our shared experience. So I really believe 540 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 2: that that's when it started happening for me. And knowing 541 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: that there were other people in the case, people like 542 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 2: Lisa Hoe, businessmen, you know, people that were far more 543 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 2: probably business savvy than me, old, or whis all of 544 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 2: those things had also been fooled by him. And I 545 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: think with anything in life, when you know that you're 546 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: not alone, that other people have been through something similar 547 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: and you can relate to them, then there's a level 548 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 2: of comfort in that. And I think that's where things 549 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: started to improve for me. 550 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. And I would imagine 551 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: from your point of view too, you would be sort 552 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: of being hard with yourself, going how could I be 553 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: so stupid? Why did I let this happen? Am I 554 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: the most stupid person in the world? And then you 555 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: see the list of other people that have been conned 556 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: by I've just got a list here, and I've got 557 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: it from your book, just to give a sense of it, 558 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: and we can talk about any specific one. I've only 559 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: mentioned the names that have been mentioned in your book, 560 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: and there's some anonymous, but these are the other victims 561 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: that have earned the amounts of money that they lost. 562 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: Lisa Hoe eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars, Glenn and 563 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: Vicki Picard six hundred and seven thousand dollars six hundred, 564 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,959 Speaker 1: Karen Lowe nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars, a Sydney 565 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: woman five hundred and sixty four thousand dollars, a triathlete 566 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: four hundred and twenty eight thousand dollars, a woman introduced 567 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: to Hamish seven hundred and sixty eight thousand, surf shop 568 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: co owners thirty three thousand, a woman not identified one 569 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: me and the nineteen thousand A woman introduced to Hamish 570 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: eighty thousand. These are people's lives that have just been destroyed. 571 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: And there was one elderly couple that the person had 572 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: to go back to work and because that was their superannuation, 573 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: that was their savings. 574 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 2: That's right. 575 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: Do you want to just highlight one or two of 576 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: the stories to understand the impact that actions like Hamish 577 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: have on people. 578 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: I mean, everyone was impacted in their own way, and 579 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: I think even if you lose ten thousand dollars, that's 580 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 2: a lot of money. But some of these figures are huge. 581 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 2: And the ones that I felt the deepest level of 582 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: compassion and empathy for were the retirees because in some 583 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 2: aspects I knew that I could I had another twenty 584 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 2: five years of working in me, I could make that 585 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: money back. And these were people who had spent their 586 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 2: whole lives working their clackers off, and they had worked hard. 587 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: They were honest people, and you know, they'd done well. 588 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 2: They've been clever with their money. They'd brought up children 589 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: and grandchildren, and they were due to have a really 590 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 2: lovely later life and he took that away from them. 591 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 2: And they don't have the ability to make up that 592 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 2: money because they're not working anymore. And you know, so 593 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 2: to rectify those losses are very difficult for elderly people. 594 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 2: We know that a lot of elderly people are being scammed. 595 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: So those ones within the case were the hardest, you know, 596 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 2: the hardest ones for me. And I got to know 597 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: these people really well throughout this process, throughout the podcast 598 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: and throughout the court process. And you know, the grandparents 599 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 2: in the case that has been widely documented. You know, 600 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 2: the husband in that relationship had had a work accident 601 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 2: and had suffered brain injury and the money that Hamish 602 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 2: took from them was part of his compensation payout, and 603 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: you know, he knew that money was coming to them 604 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 2: and still took advantage of it. And they went from 605 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 2: what was going to be a comfortable retirement supporting him 606 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 2: to wondering how they were going to pay their groceries 607 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 2: every week. And I just they were the ones that 608 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 2: hit me the hardest. Relationship breakdowns because of the pressure. 609 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 2: You know, there was there was one couple in their 610 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: relationship didn't survive and that's that's you know, that's a 611 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,680 Speaker 2: thirty year marriage that's broken up by someone else's wrongdoing. 612 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: But of course, you know there's a whole bunch of 613 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 2: reasons that that may have happened, but you can't deny 614 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 2: the pressure that that would have put it on the relationship. Yeah, 615 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: So things like that really got to me because there's 616 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 2: just not a lot of time for those people to 617 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: rectify the financial losses. 618 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you took comfort in the fact and 619 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: that you've lost your finances and someone, I'm not sure 620 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: or if it's someone that you were seeing helping you 621 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: with advice or one of your friends, said that, Okay, 622 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 1: let's take stock of your life. You've got a beautiful daughter, 623 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: you've got a great job, and you've got years where 624 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: you can regain money, and you look at it that way. 625 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: You have to look at the positives. 626 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 2: Otherwise you stay in that really sad, depressed, anxious victim 627 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 2: stage where life is never going to get better if 628 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 2: you stay there, so you have to you have to 629 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: look at the things you do have. And I think, 630 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: you know, I talk a bit in the book about 631 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 2: my trip to India after my dad died, and one 632 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 2: of the things that I draw on every day from 633 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: that trip is these people who have nothing yet o 634 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 2: the happiest people you've ever met. Yeah, and you know, 635 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: that was a really great life experience for me to, 636 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: you know, have a year doing that because you know, 637 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: subsequently I've experienced a great deal of loss, and you know, 638 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 2: I draw on I draw on those people and their 639 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: attitudes towards life who have nothing and yet just have 640 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 2: so much love and joy and family and you know, 641 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: all of those things, and they're having a great life. 642 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: They're not thinking about what they've lost, They're just thinking 643 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 2: about what they've got. So I draw on that a lot. 644 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: I think it's amazing that you can find solos in 645 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: drawing from people like that. But I do understand where 646 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: you're coming from. And the pity, not pity is not 647 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: the right word, but the empathy that you have for 648 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: the older victims that don't have a chance to rebuild, 649 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: and the impact it's had and I'm not sure if 650 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: the courts fully get it the impact of fraud, Like 651 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: there will be public outrage if someone's injured, and quite 652 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: rightly say violence is a terrible thing, but if someone's 653 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: been attacked, there's outrage. But when you look at the 654 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: damage of fraud, when life savings people who have worked 655 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 1: their whole life and it's just been taken from them, 656 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: what for? What was the motive? The motive was just 657 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: pure greed on behalf of someone. Was it just a 658 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: reaction where you've ever reacted. No, this was a planned, 659 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: a deliberate action over a period of time to rip 660 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: these people off and not care one bit about the 661 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: consequences of your actions. The courts tell us about the 662 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 1: sentencing day, you be and the brothers and sisters gathered together. 663 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 2: We did. We all went and we thought we were 664 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 2: going to get an outcome on the first day and 665 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,720 Speaker 2: the courtroom was full of people. It was full of media, 666 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: which shocked the judge because I don't think he realized 667 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 2: the extent of what he was dealing with. And everything 668 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 2: was recorded, and of course. 669 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: Before had the podcast started at this stage. Okay, it's 670 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: amazing that the interest that gets with a little bit 671 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: of media. 672 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: Attention, and I think, you know, in this case, it 673 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 2: was I feel grateful that the Australian invested time, energy, 674 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 2: money great in investigating this, because there's no way we 675 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,879 Speaker 2: would have found out or I would have found out 676 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 2: the extent of the information that I'm now privy to 677 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 2: because of Greg's investigation. And I think it did bring 678 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 2: a level of interesting to the public domain of this 679 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 2: particular case, but of you know, of this type of 680 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 2: fraud in general. And so the court was stactful and 681 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 2: we went through the process and it took a lot 682 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 2: longer than I thought it would, and at the end 683 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: of it, the judge said, I'm not going to rule today. 684 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 2: I need some time. I need time to look at 685 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 2: all this. It was a lot of information, There were 686 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 2: a lot of victims, there was a lot of detail. 687 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 2: Hamis shows not to speak, which is his right, but yeah, 688 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: there was nothing from him other than a one page 689 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 2: letter of which part was read out by the judge 690 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: and he us just come back a week later. So 691 00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: I guess it was like a lot of sort of 692 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 2: build up to no kind of outcome on that day, 693 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: which was disappointing in a sense, but also to you know, 694 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 2: there was comfort in that because I knew that the 695 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: judge was going to take some real time to look deeply. 696 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 2: Spent a week doing that, and then we came back 697 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 2: the next week to a different court. There was just 698 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 2: as many media there, there were more people in the gallery, 699 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 2: and he gave his judgment and to your point where 700 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 2: you know, it's not always this type of crime is 701 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: not always sort of treated with the same level of 702 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 2: seriousness of other crimes. I feel like in this case, 703 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 2: the judge really really took his time. He spent I 704 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 2: want to say, the better part of two and a 705 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 2: half hours reading out every victim, details surrounding every victim, 706 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: how much they lost under which circumstances, and really took 707 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 2: his time to acknowledge each of the circumstances, which, in 708 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 2: the absence of being able to do a victim statement, 709 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 2: a victim impact statement, or being able to talk or whatever, 710 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 2: that felt you. 711 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: Had someone speaking for you. 712 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it felt like there was some advocacy on our 713 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 2: part all the victims, A lot of the victims were 714 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 2: in the courtroom that day. And then he sentenced Hamish 715 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 2: to sixteen years, which was one of the largest sentences 716 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,879 Speaker 2: given for white collar crime, this type of white colo 717 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 2: crime in New South Wales. Because we went in there 718 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 2: with Tom and Chris and the detectives saying, you know, 719 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: it's probably going to be a couple of years. He'll 720 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 2: probably get a couple of years. I think Greg was saying, 721 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 2: you know, if he got five or six years, that'd 722 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,799 Speaker 2: be a good outcome. So these were the numbers that 723 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 2: we had in our head. And of course when sixteen 724 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 2: years was said, it was like holy Molly, like that's incredible. 725 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 2: And then there was a parole period. I think it 726 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:02,240 Speaker 2: was a twelve years non parole, and he really really 727 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,879 Speaker 2: gave the extent of his personal wall of his point 728 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 2: of view about the deep impact that this type of 729 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 2: crime has on our community. So that was great. But 730 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: then of course it was appealed and the sentence was 731 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 2: reduced to twelve years nine. 732 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: Years nine years on the bottom non parole. 733 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 2: And part of that reasoning was they felt that the 734 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 2: judge was not impartial enough, too much on the side 735 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 2: of the victims, which you know, and the thing I've 736 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 2: learned about the court process, it's very technical. There's no emotion. 737 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 2: It's based on technicalities, it's based on what's happened in 738 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 2: the past. It's based on these You know, there was 739 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 2: a twenty five percent discount on his sentence because he 740 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 2: pleaded it guilty. And it's like, what, I didn't know 741 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 2: these things existed, Like I've learned a lot, of course, 742 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 2: but you know things like that, and you think. This 743 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 2: is not about often what's right or wrong, or the 744 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 2: impact or the magnitude. This is based on technicalities. 745 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: Has has any of the money been recovered by pleading guilty? 746 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 1: Did he say yes, this is where I've been funneling 747 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: the funds and here there's no So you know, I 748 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: have a And it sounds like you have respect for 749 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: the courts in that they took on board the detail 750 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: that the judge that originally sentenced tamish. But the question 751 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: that I asked from a layman's point of view, I'm 752 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,839 Speaker 1: forgetting myself of being a detective from a layman's point 753 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: of view. Okay, So that tallied up. It was millions 754 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: of dollars that were fraudulently taken from people. It's pretty 755 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: hard to spend millions of dollars in a short period 756 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 1: of time, So therefore that cash has to be somewhere. 757 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 1: We've got a blake that's doing now nine years jail 758 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: gets out. If we don't know where that money is, 759 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: what's to suggest that the is me speculating? So I 760 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: don't want to get ourselves in the trouble have access 761 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: to that money that's never been recovered. 762 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think the only person that knows 763 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 2: the answer to those questions is Hamish. As part of 764 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 2: this case, it was we were told that there was 765 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,239 Speaker 2: no money anywhere in Australia. So they had investigated to 766 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 2: a point where they there was no money. They couldn't 767 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 2: see any money sitting in any bank account anywhere. And 768 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 2: I think this is the other thing that I've learned about, 769 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 2: you know, investigating fraud, is that the you know, Tom's 770 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 2: job and the police role is to arrest people like Hamish, 771 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 2: prove that he has fraudulently deceived people and stolen money 772 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 2: and put him in jail for as long as period 773 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 2: of time as possible. Right tick. They did that, and 774 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 2: they did a bloody good job. Their job is not 775 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:56,759 Speaker 2: to go find my money. 776 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:57,880 Speaker 1: You're recovering the money. 777 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 2: It's not and they're not required to do that, they're 778 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,319 Speaker 2: not incentivized to do that. They may not have the 779 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 2: technology certainly stretch for resources, as we know, and so 780 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 2: you know, they did what they needed to do to 781 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 2: get the outcome they got and that's just the way 782 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: the process works. But potentially had you know, and this 783 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 2: is another problem with people who've lost all their money 784 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 2: to crime and fraud, is that we don't have the 785 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,160 Speaker 2: money to go and pay a private investigator to go 786 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:31,879 Speaker 2: trace you know, offshore bank accounts or you know where 787 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 2: that money could possibly be. And those private companies are 788 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 2: probably the ones that do have the time and the 789 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,839 Speaker 2: skills and the resources and the ability to go and 790 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,959 Speaker 2: do that. But unfortunately, when you've lost all your money 791 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,680 Speaker 2: to crime like this, you didn't have you don't have 792 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 2: the funds to go pay someone. So it sort of 793 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:56,880 Speaker 2: ends there. But I mean, he certainly didn't spend money 794 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 2: the way that, you know, in line with what he 795 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 2: had at his fingertips. Now he could have used that 796 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 2: money to go pay people off maybe I don't know, 797 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 2: you'd think that that would be able to be traced 798 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 2: or seen, could be offshore, or maybe he gambled it 799 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 2: on the poke's down at the DYRSL. I mean, I 800 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 2: don't know. 801 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 1: You just don't You just don't know, and it's frustrating there. 802 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people are surprised when 803 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,960 Speaker 1: they do report fraudulent crime to police, think great, the 804 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: police are onto it. Now we're going to get their 805 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: money back. You articulated it very well. The role of 806 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: the police is to establish whether and the fence is 807 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,760 Speaker 1: being committed and if it has gathered the evidence, present 808 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: that evidence to the courts and then the courts can decide. 809 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,720 Speaker 1: But it's not. If we can find where the fund's 810 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: gone have gone, it makes the case easier to prove. 811 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: But if you can't, and you can still prove it 812 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,400 Speaker 1: without finding where the fund funds have gone. But is 813 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: there a level of frustration that you have knowing that 814 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 1: that money's out there and just don't know where it is? 815 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 2: Well, I guess it's still an open question in my mind. 816 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,359 Speaker 2: Is it in fact out there? I suspect that it is, 817 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,520 Speaker 2: but I don't know that for sure. I have had 818 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,839 Speaker 2: to come to the point in my life where I've 819 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 2: had to let that go. So I came to a 820 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 2: conclusion and a realization and an acceptance that I would 821 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 2: never get that money back because I felt like the 822 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 2: longer I stayed in a place of wandering and hoping 823 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 2: and feeling like I had my hand held out hoping 824 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 2: that someone would give me that money back. Was it 825 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 2: just felt like I was sort of in it's still 826 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 2: in that victim state. 827 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: Or. 828 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 2: At the mercy of what everyone else was doing to, 829 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:47,879 Speaker 2: you know, to go and find it or whatever. So 830 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 2: I just accepted that I would never get that money back, 831 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 2: and I've chosen to spend my energy on rebuilding my finances, 832 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 2: rebuilding myself, and making sure that I have a great life. 833 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,959 Speaker 2: And that's the only way I could do with it. 834 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: Seems like a smart way to deal with it. Smart 835 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,919 Speaker 1: doesn't make it easy, But I understand where you're coming 836 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,959 Speaker 1: from the fact that you're out speaking about it now 837 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: on this podcast you book the Last Victim and also 838 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,920 Speaker 1: the podcast Who the hell is Hamish? I forget? Is 839 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:23,440 Speaker 1: it Max or whatever? Just before I go in the 840 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: that little spill. Was he using Max for all the 841 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,400 Speaker 1: other victims? Was that he's or was it just different 842 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: names alone? 843 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 2: Well, mostly people knew him as Hamish. The other victims 844 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,000 Speaker 2: all knew him as Hamish. Okay, I was the only 845 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,120 Speaker 2: one that knew him as Max. Tavita. 846 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: He must have thought you just needed to find the mad. 847 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,879 Speaker 2: Special special a Max. I think he was busy at 848 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 2: that point in his life, early in twenty sixteen, building 849 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 2: this new persona. He's had multiple names over. I was 850 00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,839 Speaker 2: reached out by a woman just last week who knew 851 00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 2: him when she was in her twenties and he pretended 852 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 2: to be a music producer. She's a singer and she 853 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 2: knew him as Hamish Hamilton. So you know, every day 854 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 2: I hear a different story, there's something else. But yeah, 855 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 2: he was busy building this persona. And a woman locally 856 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,320 Speaker 2: who I know through a group of friends. She actually 857 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 2: was friends with one of his nieces and growing up 858 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,720 Speaker 2: when they were young, and obviously knew him as Hamish 859 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 2: and what have you. And in early twenty sixteen, was 860 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,359 Speaker 2: at a birthday party, fortieth birthday party, Hamish was there, 861 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,040 Speaker 2: walked over to this group of people and introduced himself 862 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 2: as Max. And this friend turned around and she goes, 863 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,480 Speaker 2: fuck off, Hamish, it's you know, Sally or whatever it was. 864 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to say her name, but 865 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,360 Speaker 2: oh yeah, yeah yeah, and just brushed it off. And 866 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,879 Speaker 2: she never thought about it. Twice until the podcast came 867 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 2: out and she met me. She said He introduced himself 868 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 2: as Max to me, and I knew him as Hamish 869 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,440 Speaker 2: from when I was sixteen, so I think back then 870 00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 2: he was starting to build this. 871 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,200 Speaker 1: New Yeah, getting it done. Is parents alive? 872 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,920 Speaker 2: I believe they are. Yeah, I believe they are. 873 00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 1: Okay, It's just adds to the layer of deceit, doesn't it. 874 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, who lies about their parents dying? If 875 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 2: you've had a parent die, you don't lie about that. 876 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,399 Speaker 1: That's the thing. You couldn't. You couldn't do it, even 877 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: if it served a purpose. You're not going to not 878 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: going to do that. Getting back to the question I 879 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: was going to say, the fact that you've come out 880 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,280 Speaker 1: publicly speaking about this on the podcast with your book, 881 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: how do you feel about that? Do you feel it's 882 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: making you is it cathartic? And do you feel like 883 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: you're giving people their heads up? Hey look at me. 884 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:39,879 Speaker 1: It can happen to anyone. Yeah. 885 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 2: I think it's really important to tell these stories. And 886 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 2: I've come to terms with my story, and you know, 887 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,719 Speaker 2: I talk about it publicly in corporate settings as well, 888 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 2: because I'm so passionate about this not happening to anyone else. 889 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 2: And I feel that if we talk about it, if 890 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 2: we educate, you know, there's so much shame around these 891 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 2: stories that if they are kept in silence and in 892 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 2: secret and in the dark, it's just going to keep happening. 893 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,240 Speaker 2: And the more we talk about it, the more we educate, 894 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,480 Speaker 2: the more sort of resilience we're going to be both 895 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 2: financially and emotionally as a community and as a society. 896 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,080 Speaker 2: And part of it for me is advocating on behalf 897 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,200 Speaker 2: of victims. So, you know, I tell a story where 898 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,880 Speaker 2: there's this seventy five year old woman that I sat 899 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,800 Speaker 2: across the dinner table from and her grown up children 900 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,560 Speaker 2: were flanked either side of us, and she had heard 901 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,120 Speaker 2: my story and knew I was writing the book and 902 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,480 Speaker 2: listened to the podcast, and she started telling me how 903 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 2: she lost her divorce settlement when she was in her 904 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 2: early forties. The kids were probably preteens, and she had 905 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,840 Speaker 2: not told anybody for thirty five. 906 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,719 Speaker 1: Years because it's shame or embarrassment. 907 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,280 Speaker 2: Shame, embarrassment. She didn't want to admit it had happened. 908 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 2: The kids sort of knew bits and pieces, but she 909 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:55,920 Speaker 2: sat across the dinner time and she was crying. She 910 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:57,680 Speaker 2: was telling me this story, and I was thinking that 911 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 2: poor woman, that poor woman who is held onto that 912 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 2: story for thirty five years because she's so ashamed and 913 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 2: she's so embarrassed, and she just wanted it to go away. 914 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 2: And you know, it's stories like that that just fuel 915 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,000 Speaker 2: my fire. And I think if we can talk about 916 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,800 Speaker 2: these things and release, you know, release those feelings from someone, 917 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 2: that's got to be doing something good as well. But 918 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,040 Speaker 2: mostly it's around education around scams and fraud, because this 919 00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,919 Speaker 2: is an extreme story. This is most people will never 920 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,279 Speaker 2: ever ever experience anything like this, but we are all 921 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 2: being targeted with scams and fraud every single day. They're 922 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 2: getting more sophisticated with AI, with technology, with scammer farms 923 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 2: in Southeast Asia. There is the likelihood that you or 924 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,920 Speaker 2: someone you know will lose money to a scam. And 925 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,520 Speaker 2: so my purpose in life now is to educate people 926 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 2: using my story as that you know, something to make 927 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,600 Speaker 2: people sit up and listen, and also to help people 928 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 2: realize that it can happen to anyone, and we just 929 00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,399 Speaker 2: need to be more vigilant, We need to be more aware, 930 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 2: and we need to help, you know, become more resilient 931 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:02,840 Speaker 2: as a community. 932 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,879 Speaker 1: Aware of it. I think a couple of points from 933 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: what you just said about the victims coming forward and 934 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,239 Speaker 1: the shame, like I can't point out enough from a 935 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,759 Speaker 1: policing point of view, you guys are victims. There's nothing 936 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,879 Speaker 1: to be ashamed of. It's not the shame doesn't come 937 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,680 Speaker 1: We've been a victim. That's you know, we should be 938 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: able to put our hands up. I know where people 939 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,279 Speaker 1: are coming from. You don't want to feel like you 940 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,360 Speaker 1: were duped or stupid or that, but I think you 941 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: out speaking the way that you do, it's clearly you're not. 942 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,440 Speaker 1: You're not some innocent person that could be easily manipulated, 943 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,440 Speaker 1: little tricked, and that can happen to you. So an 944 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:45,800 Speaker 1: important thing that that message comes across be aware of 945 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,799 Speaker 1: the scams. What advice would you give people? And as 946 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: you said, you're one with Max is an extreme. We're 947 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,240 Speaker 1: talking online dating, we're talking finances, we're talking talking everything. 948 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,760 Speaker 1: But would you look back and go if there's something 949 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,919 Speaker 1: that little instinct or something that just go that little 950 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:05,799 Speaker 1: bit further and check if you've got a doubt, because 951 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,920 Speaker 1: there might be something there is that even if you don't. 952 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 2: Have an instinct. Because one of the things that I 953 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 2: found really hard to reconcile with myself was that there 954 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,359 Speaker 2: was no part of my intuition that kicked in. Sure, 955 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 2: I thought it was quirky, there was some There were 956 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,120 Speaker 2: some quirks, but I mean, who doesn't have a quirk 957 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 2: in their forties, you know, plus a history and all 958 00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,600 Speaker 2: of that sort of stuff. I you know, I think 959 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,759 Speaker 2: we can yes intuition. You think your intuition is going 960 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,680 Speaker 2: to kick in. Mine didn't. And I always prided myself 961 00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:39,920 Speaker 2: on having a really good intuition to be able to 962 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,680 Speaker 2: read people. So even if it doesn't kick in, I 963 00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,880 Speaker 2: would say, whenever you're thinking about you know, you're presented 964 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,640 Speaker 2: with information that has to do with you know, with 965 00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,719 Speaker 2: money or you know, from a digital perspective, there are 966 00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,200 Speaker 2: so many things you can do. So you know, there 967 00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:57,960 Speaker 2: are resources online where you can just type in you 968 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,840 Speaker 2: know e toll scam and you see a bunch of 969 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 2: articles come up. If you're not sure, if you are 970 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,960 Speaker 2: on shore, don't click on the link. I think we 971 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,840 Speaker 2: all know those. If you are approached for an investment, 972 00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,120 Speaker 2: that's a bit of a red flag. You know, you 973 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,120 Speaker 2: don't generally get calls out of the blue from your 974 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,439 Speaker 2: bank about the latest term deposit rate that they've got 975 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:23,640 Speaker 2: going very very rarely. You know, if you are investing 976 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 2: with a financial advisor, you can go onto the ACIIC 977 00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,759 Speaker 2: website and check that they've got the right credentials. You 978 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 2: can check that they're able to advise you on you know, 979 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,040 Speaker 2: on superannuation for example. You can also check if they've 980 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,880 Speaker 2: got a red mark against their name, if they've been banned, 981 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,440 Speaker 2: if there are any complaints. So there are places you 982 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,879 Speaker 2: can do if you get an email, there are websites 983 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,239 Speaker 2: where you can do a domain look up and you 984 00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,680 Speaker 2: can see when that domain was registered. So there was 985 00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,320 Speaker 2: one recently and the woman was approached by ing about 986 00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,200 Speaker 2: a term deposit and the URL and the email address 987 00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,400 Speaker 2: that she got. I plugged that into the particular website 988 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,440 Speaker 2: and the domain was only registered halfway through last year. 989 00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 2: Now I'm pretty sure irong has been around longer than 990 00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,680 Speaker 2: since June last year. So first, first red flag. Next 991 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:16,319 Speaker 2: one is that domain is registered to a country in 992 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,239 Speaker 2: the Caribbean that has no tax triple red flag. So 993 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,360 Speaker 2: you start to look, but it looks like it's ig 994 00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 2: it's it's just a derivative of that in terms of 995 00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,080 Speaker 2: the UROL. Now, these are just some simple. 996 00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 1: Tips, right, practical tips. 997 00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,040 Speaker 2: Practical tips. Do a reverse image search. There are some 998 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,000 Speaker 2: websites that are fantastic if you put a photo in 999 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:38,560 Speaker 2: and it tralls the internet and finds the same person 1000 00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,759 Speaker 2: or that same picture, and then you can click on 1001 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,000 Speaker 2: it and see and see what that article is about. 1002 00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 2: So you know, there's those sort of things. If someone 1003 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 2: doesn't have a digital footprint, big red flag. 1004 00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,600 Speaker 1: There's so many things that you just said there. I'm 1005 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,280 Speaker 1: trying to because I was a victim of fraud last Sunday, 1006 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 1: wake up at five am in the morning, text from 1007 00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:00,000 Speaker 1: the bank, is this your credit card? Blah blah blah 1008 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,560 Speaker 1: to cancel my credit card? That was someone accessing my 1009 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,960 Speaker 1: account and got a little canceled, and then the reissuing 1010 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: them the credit cards and all that can strike strike anyone. 1011 00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,600 Speaker 1: The things that you just outlined there, there's about twenty points, 1012 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,160 Speaker 1: all of which were very good. We need to put them. 1013 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:17,560 Speaker 2: We need to They're on my website. 1014 00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,520 Speaker 1: On your website, please please, I'm going to make a 1015 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: note because I need that type of advice. What's your website. 1016 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,240 Speaker 2: It's Tracyhall dot com dot Are you okay? 1017 00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's have a look there because they 1018 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: were so practical. I'm actually writing this stuff. Yeah, I 1019 00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:32,560 Speaker 1: am going to look. 1020 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,200 Speaker 2: I'll I'll send you the document. There are so many things, 1021 00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,440 Speaker 2: there are so many resources. I think the hard thing, 1022 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,040 Speaker 2: Gary is that they just sit everywhere. You know, the 1023 00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 2: banks are trying to do it, the insurance companies are 1024 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:46,960 Speaker 2: trying to do it. We've got the National Anti Scams Commission, 1025 00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,680 Speaker 2: which is being set up by the A Triple C, 1026 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,560 Speaker 2: which is doing wonderful work. I mean, it's a big 1027 00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,239 Speaker 2: job to do, but there's all this information everywhere. There's 1028 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,640 Speaker 2: scam watch, dot gov, dot AU. I think is the 1029 00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,160 Speaker 2: I've got it on the list. But there are places 1030 00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,440 Speaker 2: you can go to educate yourself. There are places you 1031 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,560 Speaker 2: can go to figure out what you need to do 1032 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,920 Speaker 2: if you have been scammed. The problem is it's in 1033 00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,439 Speaker 2: all of these different places, and you know, it's quite 1034 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:12,080 Speaker 2: hard to know. 1035 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,080 Speaker 1: To stay on top of it because it continually evolves too, 1036 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,520 Speaker 1: because one scam's gone by the way side, and then 1037 00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:21,000 Speaker 1: the next one comes in exactly. Yeah. Yeah, So we 1038 00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,080 Speaker 1: do need to apply that due diligence to what we're doing, 1039 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:26,960 Speaker 1: because we're all vulnerable to it, aren't we. 1040 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,239 Speaker 2: And yeah, and Vulnerability comes in so many ways. You 1041 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 2: don't have to be looking for love on the internet. 1042 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:37,920 Speaker 2: You know, there is research that says we are significantly 1043 00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,320 Speaker 2: more vulnerable after a major life event, so divorce, death, 1044 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,560 Speaker 2: a major illness, or a natural disaster. And what they 1045 00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,840 Speaker 2: say is that we shouldn't be making any big decisions 1046 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,520 Speaker 2: during those times because we are more vulnerable. Now. They're 1047 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,759 Speaker 2: commonly the times when you have to make the biggest decisions. 1048 00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:55,400 Speaker 2: You know, where am I going to live with the kids? 1049 00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,160 Speaker 2: How I've got to set up new bank accounts, how 1050 00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,160 Speaker 2: do I fund you know, my treatment or whatever hover 1051 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,759 Speaker 2: it might be. And you know, it forced me to 1052 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,960 Speaker 2: realize that vulnerability comes in those ways. But it also 1053 00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,600 Speaker 2: could be you know, you could have just had a 1054 00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,040 Speaker 2: baby and you haven't slept for three weeks, so you're tired. 1055 00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,120 Speaker 2: That's vulnerability. You could be a CEO traveling the world 1056 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,600 Speaker 2: going through different time zones and have jet lag. That's vulnerability. 1057 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,759 Speaker 2: And vulnerability is part of the human condition. We're not 1058 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 2: going to stop being vulnerable. And it's nothing wrong. We've 1059 00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,960 Speaker 2: been vulnerable. It's just that these types of people and 1060 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,560 Speaker 2: these types of scams pray on that vulnerability, and that's 1061 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 2: where we have to be more vigilant and just be aware. 1062 00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,200 Speaker 2: And I think you're right thinking critically about the information 1063 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 2: that's presented to you. And I have no problem saying 1064 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:43,040 Speaker 2: that I didn't think critically enough. I was just relieved 1065 00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:45,799 Speaker 2: that someone who I thought loved me was going to 1066 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:46,640 Speaker 2: help me with something. 1067 00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and look with Tracy from a sense of betrayal, 1068 00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:53,080 Speaker 1: like when you bring the emotions into It's one thing 1069 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,799 Speaker 1: to do the fraud schemes, so it's next level when 1070 00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,040 Speaker 1: you're putting you through the emotional trauma of what happened 1071 00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 1: to you. And it's a sad place if we've all 1072 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,359 Speaker 1: got to look out for that for every new relationship 1073 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,520 Speaker 1: that's formed. But yeah, what happened to you could happen 1074 00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:08,000 Speaker 1: to anyone. 1075 00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,879 Speaker 2: So that's yeah, I say, be skeptical, not cynical. Wow, 1076 00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 2: I kind of look at it now. And you know, 1077 00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 2: people say, what advice are you going to give to 1078 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 2: your daughter and her friends that they make their way 1079 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,240 Speaker 2: into the dating speed And you know, it isn't get 1080 00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,000 Speaker 2: one hundred points of ID. It isn't to go looking 1081 00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,760 Speaker 2: for all the red flags because that's a very cynical 1082 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,440 Speaker 2: place to live. It's a shitty world if that's what 1083 00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,880 Speaker 2: you're looking for, But it is to be more curious 1084 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,600 Speaker 2: and more boldly. If you're not getting the answers, you 1085 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,720 Speaker 2: won't be like cath ask again, ask again, and be skeptical, 1086 00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:47,080 Speaker 2: but don't be cynical. And so that's you know, Hamish 1087 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 2: is operating at a top one percent of psychopathic vendors, 1088 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,320 Speaker 2: Like here's an outlier. Most people aren't like that. So 1089 00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,120 Speaker 2: you can't go looking for Hamishes in a world full 1090 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:01,640 Speaker 2: of ordinary good people. So that's my advice is just 1091 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,000 Speaker 2: be skeptical. Okay, not cynical. 1092 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:08,480 Speaker 1: All right, that's good advice your life now, Yeah, you're 1093 00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:09,040 Speaker 1: in a good. 1094 00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,400 Speaker 2: Place, are in a great place. Yeah, I mean I'm 1095 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 2: working hard. I'm obviously going around talking to a lot 1096 00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:21,120 Speaker 2: of corporates and educating people, advocating for victim support, obviously 1097 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:25,400 Speaker 2: publicizing the book. But yeah, I've made this my work. Now, 1098 00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,240 Speaker 2: this is what I do full time. And yeah, so 1099 00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,920 Speaker 2: it's great. I'm really enjoying it. It's a hussle, it's 1100 00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,520 Speaker 2: a challenge, but you know, I feel like it's making 1101 00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:39,480 Speaker 2: an impact, which I'm really proud of. 1102 00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,080 Speaker 1: Like the passion that you got for in the spring 1103 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,200 Speaker 1: in your step. I can see it. So if there's 1104 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:46,560 Speaker 1: one positive that's come out of this, that's the work 1105 00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,480 Speaker 1: that you're doing now. And I think it's great that 1106 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,520 Speaker 1: you're able to articulate it so clearly, in so specifically 1107 00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,800 Speaker 1: and personally, so people can look what can happen to Tracy, 1108 00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,640 Speaker 1: It can happen to any of us. So great with 1109 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:01,720 Speaker 1: the work that you've been done the book. Let's give 1110 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:04,560 Speaker 1: the book a pitch. So it's the last victim. As 1111 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:07,480 Speaker 1: you can see, I've got quite a few tags in there. 1112 00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,040 Speaker 1: Had a great read on the weekend. Spent my weekend 1113 00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 1: reading it, and I was angry, I was happy, I 1114 00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,640 Speaker 1: was sad. It was all the things, and it feels yeah, 1115 00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,040 Speaker 1: it was really a good read. Where can people get 1116 00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:19,400 Speaker 1: the book online? 1117 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,840 Speaker 2: Through Amazon or your nearest bookstore. Obviously in bookstores Big 1118 00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,600 Speaker 2: w is stocking them. Or you can get an audiobook 1119 00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:32,480 Speaker 2: through Spotify or Audible, and there's e books available as well, 1120 00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,000 Speaker 2: so I check away you want to do it? 1121 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,200 Speaker 1: Great stuff, Well, thank you so much for coming on 1122 00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: I catch killers and sharing your well, I'm going to 1123 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:41,400 Speaker 1: call incredible story because it is a story from start 1124 00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,400 Speaker 1: to finish. I'm reading reading No that can't happen, but 1125 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 1: it has happened, and you've come out smiling, and. 1126 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:48,320 Speaker 2: That's great to say, thanks for having me. 1127 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:54,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on. What an impressive person Tracy Hall is. 1128 00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:57,560 Speaker 1: If someone like Tracy can be a victim of a fraud, 1129 00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 1: so like Hamish McLaren, I think it shows that any 1130 01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,000 Speaker 1: could be. We all need to be careful. But the 1131 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,280 Speaker 1: crime that was committed on Tracy was absolutely despicable, not 1132 01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,040 Speaker 1: only stealing your love but also your life savings. There's 1133 01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,080 Speaker 1: a lesson for all of us that we all could 1134 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:13,560 Speaker 1: be victims, and it was an important message in such 1135 01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:15,200 Speaker 1: an impressive person, Tracy Hall.