Speaker 1: I get eight champs.
Speaker 2: It's Bobby, it's young Bobby and craiggo here at me,
Speaker 2: Central typ Central, just doing.
Speaker 1: What we do. It's what is it? It's I don't know.
Speaker 1: I tell everybody you probably don't give a fuck, but
Speaker 1: just in case you do. It's Thursday.
Speaker 2: As I record this, it's twelve eight on the twenty
Speaker 2: month of the month, twenty ninth of the month known
Speaker 2: as January. It is the twenty eighth right now where
Speaker 2: Robert is and it's twenty one degrees in Melbourne, which
Speaker 2: is way better than the forty sixth we had the
Speaker 2: other day.
Speaker 1: Hi mate, how are you?
Speaker 3: Eh?
Speaker 4: How's it going? Happy to hear you have a more favorable, favorable, favorable,
Speaker 4: favorable weather pattern. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What is favorable exactly?
Speaker 2: Is that like femoral or ephemeral or theorial weather.
Speaker 4: The weather pattern is so much more favorable than it
Speaker 4: has been. You're excited about it. You have great feavor
Speaker 4: toward the weather pattern.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, jot that down, everybody. There'll be a test
Speaker 1: at the end.
Speaker 2: What are you up to on your Wednesday night over
Speaker 2: there in the bloody us of A Because, by the way,
Speaker 2: from the outside looking in, it seems that not much
Speaker 2: is going on over there. It seems pretty quiet, business
Speaker 2: as usual no here, Yeah, yeah, nothing peaceful, everything's great.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, no, it seems that way, so good luck
Speaker 2: with that. Do you try to keep your head down?
Speaker 2: Do you keep your head up ever alert?
Speaker 1: Or do you? How do you? Because there is a
Speaker 1: lot going on.
Speaker 2: Of course we're being facetious and we'll get to our
Speaker 2: topic at hand in a moment, but how do you
Speaker 2: mentally and emotionally somebody who gets a bit anxious from
Speaker 2: time to time, as you've shared on the show, and
Speaker 2: who has a propensity to overthink, how do you navigate
Speaker 2: that personally?
Speaker 4: Well? I do keep my head down mostly when I'm crying,
Speaker 4: but other than that, I try to focus on what
Speaker 4: needs to be done today and for who and why.
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying I'm always effective at that, especially
Speaker 4: now where social media. It's like Jesus, I haven't checked
Speaker 4: social media in a few hours, like is there still
Speaker 4: a world out there outside of my building, outside of
Speaker 4: my office? And I find myself going back into doom
Speaker 4: scrolling quite a bit, to be fair, So I don't
Speaker 4: know if I'm really handling it well. But what does
Speaker 4: help me is if I have a meeting or I'm
Speaker 4: working on a project now that I feel quite serious about,
Speaker 4: and to focus single mindedly on that and try to
Speaker 4: lose myself. That gets me out of my head. That
Speaker 4: eliminates distractions for a bit. You know, if if I'm
Speaker 4: looking directly in one direction, what of the way can
Speaker 4: you look in one direction? Indirectly looking in one direction?
Speaker 4: But anyway, if I'm if I'm focused on one direction,
Speaker 4: it kind of blinds me from all the other things
Speaker 4: of my periphery that will grab my attention in a
Speaker 4: non constructive way, so to speak.
Speaker 2: It feels like potentially the dumbest advice and the most
Speaker 2: common and dumbest advice simultaneously in the history of human
Speaker 2: behavior and psychology and sociology is when we tell worried
Speaker 2: people not to worry, which is as useful as telling
Speaker 2: a tall person not to be tall. As I've said
Speaker 2: before on this show, because everyone's worried, including me at
Speaker 2: some stage about something. I'm going through some stuff with
Speaker 2: my mum and dad, which is for them right now
Speaker 2: pretty uncomfortable and disconcerting. It's just to change. They're eighty
Speaker 2: six blah blah blah, and I realize sitting with them,
Speaker 2: loving them, listening to them, trying to understand them even
Speaker 2: when they're their anxiety or fear or apprehension is a
Speaker 2: nine out of ten about something that I think warrants
Speaker 2: is zero. I know that me going hey there isn't
Speaker 2: actually a problem. The problem is you're thinking. I know
Speaker 2: that that doesn't help, and I know that although the
Speaker 2: story might be bullshit, the experience that they're having is
Speaker 2: very real.
Speaker 1: Right, So how do you like when you're fearful or
Speaker 1: you're worried, or you start to elevate?
Speaker 2: Do you have a particular strategy? Because I think this
Speaker 2: is everyone listening. Everyone listening goes well there. I want
Speaker 2: to know the answer to this, because fuck, I worry
Speaker 2: about fucking everything or a lot of things, and it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter how much I worry, It doesn't change the outcome.
Speaker 1: And I know that intellectually but nonetheless emotionally, this is
Speaker 1: my response.
Speaker 4: If I can. Because your environment has a lot to
Speaker 4: do with this, I find it helps to move to
Speaker 4: change my environment, get from one place to a completely
Speaker 4: different place. Walk start Like if you are someone who
Speaker 4: is out and about between meetings your workday, you're running
Speaker 4: an errand, like, get that movement in I mean movement,
Speaker 4: it's really effective. You know, eat, you're on nature eoretic
Speaker 4: pabtize or release from the heart when you move, and
Speaker 4: that mitigates stress hormone levels on the body. It decreases quarters,
Speaker 4: all levels. Very effective if you're somewhere where you can
Speaker 4: run an errand and just park a little bit further
Speaker 4: from that. I mean, it sounds so cheesy, but it's
Speaker 4: not changing your body, changing your physiology. Moving you know,
Speaker 4: rather briskly with a sense of purpose helps me enormously.
Speaker 1: That's so true, dude, And I know you're right, it does.
Speaker 2: It sounds cheesy, it sounds cliche, it sounds repetitive, but nonetheless,
Speaker 2: many people I'm not talking about necessarily our listeners. I'm
Speaker 2: sure a percentage from time to time, but just don't
Speaker 2: do that thing like I remember. At the end of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, the University of South Australia came out
Speaker 2: with the results which were splashed all over the media
Speaker 2: for about eight minutes of a study comparing medication for depression.
Speaker 1: To exercise.
Speaker 2: So one one group of people dealing with depression suffering
Speaker 2: from depression. However, we want to word it, frame it.
Speaker 2: They did a ten week I think it was ten week.
Speaker 2: You can look it up everybody. It might have the
Speaker 2: numbers wrong, but ten week intervention of exercise and versus
Speaker 2: no exercise, plus you know, the normal kind of pharmaceutical approach.
Speaker 2: And obviously know what I'm going to tell you. The
Speaker 2: people who took no medication but exercise consistently, consistently and
Speaker 2: appropriately for.
Speaker 1: Them where they were.
Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't all everyone doing the same program,
Speaker 2: but they're doing the right program for them. It outperformed
Speaker 2: the medication by one hundred and fifty plus percent, right,
Speaker 2: And we go, oh, that's fucking amazing. And then nobody
Speaker 2: takes it up. Everyone just goes, yeah, look at that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I finally I wonder, I wonder why. I wonder why
Speaker 4: that is. And what we're not saying is if you
Speaker 4: are on prescribe medication, like just start exercising and start
Speaker 4: taking you prescribe mads. We are not saying that, And
Speaker 4: we're not saying if you're in therapy exercises a substitute.
Speaker 4: What we are saying is it's definitely something that you
Speaker 4: can do in conjunction to quite an afficacious effect.
Speaker 2: We have a lady who's been on the show a
Speaker 2: bunch so did. Her name is doctor Ingrid and she's
Speaker 2: a psychiatrist at Royal Adelaide Hospital and most or as
Speaker 2: many of her appointments as she can do walking, she does.
Speaker 2: So people come to her office at the hospital. Obvious
Speaker 2: she doesn't walk all day, but she does quite a
Speaker 2: lot of them, and she's like, put on your jacket
Speaker 2: or put on your whatever we need what cever weather appropriate,
Speaker 2: and off they go. They walk forty five minutes or
Speaker 2: whatever the time they get back and she said to me,
Speaker 2: I get much better outcomes. People are more open, people
Speaker 2: are more responsive, people are more you know, it's like
Speaker 2: just sitting in a spot thinking about your shit isn't
Speaker 2: as effective or often isn't as effective as you know,
Speaker 2: even doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: But you know, while being mobile, while being you know,
Speaker 1: walking along what's that river in perse Sorry it's so
Speaker 1: stupid of.
Speaker 2: Me right now, but anyway, actually, yeah, the you know,
Speaker 2: amongst the trees and the grass, and you know, it's
Speaker 2: like much better outcomes.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 2: Sorry I interrupted, You're going to say something swamp just
Speaker 2: thank you swan river, thank you go.
Speaker 4: That's not what I was going to say. But what
Speaker 4: I was going to say is I wonder, way, I
Speaker 4: wonder why people don't get into a consistent habit of movement.
Speaker 4: I wonder what gets in the way.
Speaker 1: Actually, do you think that people have a story, Like now,
Speaker 1: I'm not an exercise person.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know it's like we all have stories
Speaker 4: around our identity, what we are or what we're not,
Speaker 4: and obviously that profoundly shapes our behaviors. Yes, but I'm
Speaker 4: not even talking about exercise. For me, it's like what
Speaker 4: is the lowest hanging fruit, Like, what is the easiest
Speaker 4: place to start where it's almost ridiculous not to do
Speaker 4: it and start there, because if you get into the
Speaker 4: habit of consistent movement, that will do an enormous amount
Speaker 4: of good to support you getting into a habit of
Speaker 4: consistent exercise. If that's where you're even looking to go,
Speaker 4: but just start somewhere, start moving, because the thing is
Speaker 4: what movement? You'll feel better once you start doing it.
Speaker 4: It's not like, oh, well, I've been exercising for four
Speaker 4: weeks and I still haven't achieved the body of my dream.
Speaker 4: You'll start feeling better the week you're moving. It's just
Speaker 4: a matter of a lot of times. Our environment is
Speaker 4: so structure to prevent movement. Like right now, for example,
Speaker 4: we're sitting down, but we're virtual, we're behind the screen.
Speaker 4: Tomorrow night I have a webinar, I'm gonna be sitting down.
Speaker 4: Normally I would be standing up and moving around the
Speaker 4: room dynamically, but I'm sitting down. Then, think about people
Speaker 4: who work remotely. They have one meeting after the next,
Speaker 4: like they didn't have time to go to the loo.
Speaker 4: They're sitting there and nappies like guzzling water. It's like,
Speaker 4: that's that's not That's not an environment conducive to movement,
Speaker 4: is it? So our whole environment used to be structure
Speaker 4: on the necessity to move. Oh my goodness. So today
Speaker 4: I was coming back from the gym early this morning
Speaker 4: and they were already working on the lift, Like, oh, sorry,
Speaker 4: you know, lifts are down. It's like, you know what.
Speaker 4: I live on the sixth floor. Each story has two
Speaker 4: flights of stairs between it. That's twelve flights of stairs.
Speaker 4: He was like, I'm gonna get my ass up the stairs.
Speaker 4: I was like, why don't I do this more often?
Speaker 1: A hundred you should fuck that elevator off.
Speaker 4: Out of your life, Like I understood why I used
Speaker 4: to live on the thirtieth floor. They get, but I
Speaker 4: live on the sixth floor. That's twelve flights of stairs.
Speaker 4: I mean, and look if that seems like a lot,
Speaker 4: like take take the lift up to the fifth floor
Speaker 4: and just like walk up to the six Just constantly
Speaker 4: expand your capitalization on the opportunities that you have to move. Yeah,
Speaker 4: when I live in cities, man, have you move a lot?
Speaker 4: Because there's no other choice.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: Also, you know when people are like I'm not an
Speaker 2: excise person, or I don't like the gym, or well, one,
Speaker 2: you don't need to go to a gym.
Speaker 1: And also you don't need to be an excise person.
Speaker 1: You just need to be a person who has a
Speaker 1: body and bodies like to be moved.
Speaker 2: Bodies need to be moved, Bodies need mobility, bodies need
Speaker 2: their heart rate to go up and down a bit.
Speaker 2: You know, bodies need to be put under under a
Speaker 2: level of stress an intelligent, strategic, and consistent way. Because
Speaker 2: there's not one person.
Speaker 1: That goes I'm not an excise person that if you said,
Speaker 1: would you like to be a bit fitter stronger, healthier.
Speaker 1: I would say, no, I wouldn't like that. Like if
Speaker 1: everyone was being honest.
Speaker 2: Of course, everyone go, yeah, I'd like to be a
Speaker 2: bit fitter, healthier, stronger. Whatever that looks like, well cool,
Speaker 2: there's an easy way to do it. And you do
Speaker 2: this for ten minutes a day, or five minutes a
Speaker 2: day or five minutes three times a day, or you know,
Speaker 2: you don't have to start running marathons. You might start
Speaker 2: just like you were talking about walking six flights or
Speaker 2: twelve flights or however many fucking flights.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it just seems that there's.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I have some unpopular theories about why,
Speaker 2: which I won't mention, but I will kind of.
Speaker 1: I just think that we are.
Speaker 2: Physically anyway, not as resilient as we once were, because
Speaker 2: for most of our human experience as a species, we
Speaker 2: haven't had elevators, we haven't had escalators, we haven't had
Speaker 2: paved roads and footpaths and automobiles and motorbikes, and you.
Speaker 1: Know, for most of human existence we had none of that.
Speaker 1: And we're just so.
Speaker 2: Extracted from just normal physical expenditure, energy expenditure, and movement,
Speaker 2: and yeah, that we that we like you said, we
Speaker 2: spend our lives sitting down.
Speaker 1: Hey, have you ever wondered do you reckon? Do you reckon?
Speaker 2: If we did an IQ test standing up versus sitting down,
Speaker 2: Let's say all the other variables were the same, Right,
Speaker 2: it's not like we've been sitting for eight hours. But
Speaker 2: let's just say we got up, we did our normal day,
Speaker 2: and then it. You know, person A at ten o'clock
Speaker 2: did a stand up test? Person be at ten o'clock
Speaker 2: did a sit down test. Do you think there's any difference?
Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean I think IQ is one
Speaker 4: of those things that was like it's fairly fixed throughout
Speaker 4: your lifetime. But how you would perform on that test,
Speaker 4: I would imagine I make a bit of a difference. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean I know when you sit me there, and
Speaker 4: this is one of the frustrating things. It's like everything
Speaker 4: in the work environment, like you go to do anything
Speaker 4: and it's like, all right, so sit down here. It's
Speaker 4: like I do not think well when I'm seated at all.
Speaker 1: That is interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if I stand up and I start moving, even
Speaker 4: when I had and you know, I don't recommend like
Speaker 4: somebody's at a standing desk all day long like that
Speaker 4: can be problematic. But when I was able to go
Speaker 4: from sitting to standing, or a lot of times I
Speaker 4: would work on a high table. So when a lot
Speaker 4: of my job dependent on writing and you got to
Speaker 4: write like eight articles a month, which you know it
Speaker 4: is not easy, I would just work at a standing
Speaker 4: desk and just stand and then pace around, gather my
Speaker 4: thoughts and come back and write down what I just
Speaker 4: came up with and go pace again. I was like,
Speaker 4: we get so much more done than if I was
Speaker 4: just sitting down like writing, because the thought would be
Speaker 4: so much more fluid. So I performed better when I'm moving.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes when I do a gig, I like sitting
Speaker 2: on stage because I like sitting down with the group.
Speaker 2: Or often i'll do something in a boardroom like I'm
Speaker 2: sure you've done, Like I've literally done gigs.
Speaker 1: I've done it.
Speaker 2: I've done a whole afternoon with three directors of a
Speaker 2: company in a room, like my audience was three people,
Speaker 2: and I've done four thousand in an outdoor event. Right,
Speaker 2: it's just crazy. But the obviously the experience is very different.
Speaker 2: But even with a group of people in a room,
Speaker 2: we're sitting in a boardroom at a big table, and
Speaker 2: it might be it's only been three once, but generally
Speaker 2: it's like ten or twelve people. Like it's a very
Speaker 2: small group. But I can't sit there forever like I
Speaker 2: need to. I don't know, I feel like my brain
Speaker 2: works a bit better like you when I move, like
Speaker 2: if i've and my probably my addiction in their space
Speaker 2: is you know, whiteboards, because I love to just to
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about idea and I'm just going
Speaker 2: to write that word on the board. Then I'm going
Speaker 2: to riff on that. Then I'm going to draw a
Speaker 2: line coming from that word, and I'm going to write
Speaker 2: another word right then I'm going to build this little
Speaker 2: kind of you know, intersection and interface of words. It
Speaker 2: all kind of focus around this middle word here and
Speaker 2: then like for me, it's with the It gives them
Speaker 2: something to look at other.
Speaker 1: Than me for a moment.
Speaker 2: And when I'm I don't know, when I'm writing on
Speaker 2: a white board and there's that I like it sounds silly,
Speaker 2: but I like writing like I write. I like writing
Speaker 2: well on a board like it's for me it's creativity.
Speaker 2: And when I do that, it's like another bit of
Speaker 2: my brain gets accessed as well.
Speaker 4: So my brain works through association. I'm not like a
Speaker 4: linear thinker, although I've trained myself to be a little
Speaker 4: bit more over the years, but I'm the same way.
Speaker 4: If I write a word on a board that's relevant
Speaker 4: to something, that just sparks my creativity instantly, I know
Speaker 4: what to say. I don't write now. I look like
Speaker 4: I'm like a chemist writing on a board basically, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell people what linear thinking is.
Speaker 4: I don't have like a structured outline and thinking in
Speaker 4: numerical order like okay, this precedes this, and then the
Speaker 4: next step would be I mean, you know, I use
Speaker 4: acronyms a lot, which structures and directs my thinking, but
Speaker 4: I think the association same thing. If you give me
Speaker 4: a word, it's like, oh, okay, well what connects to
Speaker 4: this word? Relevant to you know, what we're all doing here.
Speaker 2: I have a little chat sheet which I really use,
Speaker 2: but it's one piece of a full paper and it's
Speaker 2: got I would say about eighty words on it, and
Speaker 2: the word could be which is so some of them
Speaker 2: are two words could be subjective reality, or it could
Speaker 2: be success, or it could be metacognition, or it could
Speaker 2: be anxiety or whatever. But there's all of these words
Speaker 2: on this one page, and all of them are highlighted
Speaker 2: in about five colors, so the words all stand out,
Speaker 2: they don't really get lost, And each one of those
Speaker 2: words I can confidently talk about for twenty minutes, so
Speaker 2: I know I have give or take eighty times twenty
Speaker 2: sixteen hundred words or sixteen hundred minutes before I reach
Speaker 2: for anything else, and even then I probably have more
Speaker 2: than that. But it's like my brain likes that, where, Oh, Craig,
Speaker 2: could you just talk to us about that? Yes, sure,
Speaker 2: let's do that. Like somebody asked me, Yeah, somebody asked
Speaker 2: me recently how long does it take to form a habit?
Speaker 2: And like, that's just an interesting question to un pack
Speaker 2: and there are so many variables, and I'm like, that's
Speaker 2: a great question. I want to talk about that. And
Speaker 2: then we just spoke and the audience asked other questions
Speaker 2: around that, and it's like we did a twenty minute
Speaker 2: riff on just this one conversation starter to which there
Speaker 2: is no absolute answer, but nonetheless, it's a really interesting
Speaker 2: idea to lean into, you know, and that I think
Speaker 2: people you know you and I work like that I
Speaker 2: think a lot of I feel like we're doing the
Speaker 2: thing I said not to do. But that's all right,
Speaker 2: remember back to our But communication wise, I guess just
Speaker 2: how people build connection and rapport with whether or not
Speaker 2: it's one person at work or one hundred people in
Speaker 2: a room.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 4: When it comes to performance in any area of your life,
Speaker 4: when it comes to family, friends, when it comes to
Speaker 4: you know, given a presentation at work, sales call, or
Speaker 4: sitting down with your boss, I think there there's there's
Speaker 4: kind of contradictory dynamics. And we told we got into
Speaker 4: this a few weeks ago, a few episodes ago. I
Speaker 4: was having a conversation with you know, you know this guy,
Speaker 4: you know, Chuck Wolf right, Yeah, his wife at.
Speaker 1: The time, it's quite well known.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I mean he's known in fitness and biomechanics circles,
Speaker 4: not generally. So we were on tour in Australia. This
Speaker 4: was great and Taylor came down to present with us
Speaker 4: later that day. So we had a hotel in Melbourne.
Speaker 4: And I love listening to Chuck because he's just captivating
Speaker 4: and brilliant. But I had heard the same thing like
Speaker 4: five times in the course of a week. So I
Speaker 4: was just chatting to Lauren in the back of the room,
Speaker 4: and she's a very successful stage perform and I had
Speaker 4: asked her, I know I've brought this up before, what
Speaker 4: is the difference between someone who is just peerless in
Speaker 4: their space in terms of a performer, someone who's merely good?
Speaker 4: And she said, well, let's take a look at what
Speaker 4: it's not. She said, it's not talent, because if you're
Speaker 4: doing shows, you're at that level. Everybody's talented, and it's
Speaker 4: not hard work. All of these people are working brutally hard.
Speaker 4: It's a psychological dynamic. And she said that the people
Speaker 4: who are legendary are the people who have this enormous
Speaker 4: ego and this broad and deep, beautiful sense of humility
Speaker 4: in the same persona. And I think that's important is
Speaker 4: having characteristics that balance each other out. I remember that
Speaker 4: you had said something interesting about God. You walk on
Speaker 4: whatever stage that is. Your stage could be six o'clock
Speaker 4: in the morning, your kids all running amock, trying to
Speaker 4: get ready for school, and you're trying to organize twenty
Speaker 4: six different things because you not only have to sort
Speaker 4: the family out, but you've got a lot of things
Speaker 4: you need to get done. That's a stage. And if
Speaker 4: you don't have something, because life is really hard and
Speaker 4: it seems like it's getting more and more complicated and
Speaker 4: harder and harder, if you don't have this intrinsic compass
Speaker 4: to say, yeah, you know what, I'm good at this shit,
Speaker 4: I am really good at this. This might be hard today,
Speaker 4: but I have got this. I could figure this out
Speaker 4: and I've got something to contribute. I think that puts
Speaker 4: you in a space where you're not so self absorbed
Speaker 4: that you have been going to be able to focus
Speaker 4: on others because when that ego is too high, you
Speaker 4: become reformative and it's all about you and your outcomes.
Speaker 4: If your humility is too high and you have zero ego,
Speaker 4: you become invisible, which means not only do you not
Speaker 4: have the confidence and the courage to speak up or
Speaker 4: use your talent and use your skills. Even if you
Speaker 4: did from that space, it won't really impact people because
Speaker 4: if you don't have confidence in what you're saying, if
Speaker 4: you don't have any level of certainty, other people are
Speaker 4: going to be very apprehensive around you. And we just
Speaker 4: know that that's just the way the world works. You
Speaker 4: need that balance, because otherwise life will shut you down
Speaker 4: in critical situations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm thinking about that. I think.
Speaker 2: It's funny I write the word performing and five seconds
Speaker 2: later you said it becomes performative. Right, And there is
Speaker 2: that thing because it's almost like item gets thrown around
Speaker 2: as edutainment. You've heard that, right, kind of the section
Speaker 2: of education and entertainment.
Speaker 1: And I know that.
Speaker 2: Not always, but typically when I am a little bit storyteller,
Speaker 2: mildly funny guy educator, but also being in the moment
Speaker 2: a bit of an mpath where I'm kind of sensitive
Speaker 2: to the This doesn't sound like a Craig sentence, so
Speaker 2: forgive me everyone, but I'm kind of sensitive to the
Speaker 2: energy in the room and the vibe in the room
Speaker 2: and what's going on.
Speaker 1: And how you know this is consistent with my PhD.
Speaker 1: How am I going? How am I going? For them?
Speaker 2: Who is Craig Harp and now for them? Is he
Speaker 2: the annoying fucking buffet on the stage? Is he the
Speaker 2: insightful guy that seems like he cares? Is that you
Speaker 2: know that's not coming from security insecurity or ego. That's
Speaker 2: coming from a little bit of awareness and a desire
Speaker 2: to be good in the moment for them so that
Speaker 2: I can so they walk away and not go necessarily
Speaker 2: he was good maybe, but more importantly that was good.
Speaker 1: I needed to hear that. That was helpful to me.
Speaker 1: And so it's very it's it's it's I don't think
Speaker 1: being I think being one hundred percent performative doesn't work
Speaker 1: at our job. I think having an element of performance
Speaker 1: often makes it better if it's.
Speaker 2: Intertwined with integrity and real world experience and insight and
Speaker 2: reflection and science and yeah, but it's not like, oh,
Speaker 2: you need twelve percent of this, fourteen percent of that
Speaker 2: twenty two percent. There's no set formula because it's fluid,
Speaker 2: and what's great for this group ain't great for that group.
Speaker 4: And I think it's very hard to tune in to
Speaker 4: your group when you are a lacking some level of confidence,
Speaker 4: because I think about the people who are completely self absorbed.
Speaker 4: They're always talking about themselves. It's always about them, They're
Speaker 4: the center of their universe. Well, they're not in tune
Speaker 4: to people. But most of the time these are individuals
Speaker 4: that do not feel very great about themselves. They're struggling
Speaker 4: with some deep level of inadequacy, and you know what's
Speaker 4: funny is a lot of times people see this and
Speaker 4: it's evident, but even these individuals get up sometimes and
Speaker 4: because they're so outwardly confident, people mistake that for some
Speaker 4: level of competence. And those two things are mutually reinforcing,
Speaker 4: but they're not automatically synonymous with one of those. So
Speaker 4: a lot of the times the people who have their
Speaker 4: ego is too large for the room. It's not a
Speaker 4: feeling of self assurance. It's the exact opposite. It's deep
Speaker 4: rooted insecurity that creates that. So you need something that
Speaker 4: makes you confident enough to put yourself in a situation
Speaker 4: where you have a voice that's going to be heard
Speaker 4: and like you know that you have something to say,
Speaker 4: you have a level of expertise, or you have a
Speaker 4: level of care let's say at home with the family.
Speaker 4: And then once you get into that space, you can
Speaker 4: now afford to let go and turn your attention outward
Speaker 4: because it's not about you. You get yourself and get
Speaker 4: you prop yourself up. You get yourself into that state
Speaker 4: so you can tackle things, especially when things are unpredictable
Speaker 4: and they're extremely difficult, and then the key is to
Speaker 4: disappear in that situation.
Speaker 1: H wow.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can do this, but I'm
Speaker 2: going to ask you. Can you explain to me ego
Speaker 2: through a positive lens and a negative lens.
Speaker 4: I think ego is a strong sense of myself, and
Speaker 4: I think through a negative leans it is an infleetion
Speaker 4: or over focus on myself that crowd it gets so
Speaker 4: big that it crowds out my ability to view others. Yeah,
Speaker 4: the sensor to.
Speaker 1: That, because it doesn't it doesn't get held in general.
Speaker 1: Or this is my observation. Other people will probably have
Speaker 1: a different one.
Speaker 3: But my observation is, you know, out in the wild,
Speaker 3: in the wild of suburban Melbourne and all the other suburbans,
Speaker 3: it's not like having a big ego is a good thing.
Speaker 1: It's generally a criticism or an insult. So do we
Speaker 1: regard it like we're not understanding what it? You know.
Speaker 4: I think the.
Speaker 2: Original was like in the Greek ego id id meaning
Speaker 2: the self, the self in the middle of one's fucking existence.
Speaker 2: Like because I don't think originally this ain't my area
Speaker 2: of expectise, obviously, but I don't think it was really
Speaker 2: you know, uh, held in a negative light rather than
Speaker 2: as almost just like the understanding of one's self.
Speaker 4: If I don't understand me, I'm going to have a
Speaker 4: hard time understanding you. If I'm too over indexed and
Speaker 4: focused on myself, I'm not even tuned into you. So
Speaker 4: I think it's not a matter of is this trait
Speaker 4: good or bad? It's in what does exactly I mean?
Speaker 4: Being self conscious sometimes stops you from doing and saying
Speaker 4: things that are disruptive or damaging to yourself and others.
Speaker 4: Is it good to be exceedingly self conscious? No, it'll
Speaker 4: shut you down in just about every area of your life.
Speaker 4: Is your ego good or bad? Well, yeah, if you
Speaker 4: have too little of an ego, you'll never do anything,
Speaker 4: never contribute to anyone. If if he goes too big,
Speaker 4: it always becomes about you, and you'll never form bonds
Speaker 4: with the people that you're out in the world with,
Speaker 4: And then what's that worth? And yeah, you know you'll
Speaker 4: never learn, you'll never grow. So if there is, if
Speaker 4: there is a growth edge that you have that's counterproductive
Speaker 4: to your life, you're probably not even going to be
Speaker 4: aware of it, or if you're made aware of it,
Speaker 4: you probably won't accept it. So I think it's not
Speaker 4: a matter of is this attribute good? It's what's the
Speaker 4: magnitude of this attribute and what role does it play
Speaker 4: in my life? Is it serving me and others? Or
Speaker 4: is it getting in the way.
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm going to tell you what Chatters is
Speaker 2: telling us, and then you're going to riff off the
Speaker 2: back of this.
Speaker 1: I just typed in for everyone. What is ego? Sure answer?
Speaker 1: Ego is the idea of me.
Speaker 2: Along and clearer version it says, minus the woo woo,
Speaker 2: that's hilarious. Ego is the mental construct says this is
Speaker 2: who I am. It's the story your mind tells about you.
Speaker 2: Who you are, what you're worth, how you should be seen,
Speaker 2: and how the world should treat you. It's built from memories, labels, roles, beliefs,
Speaker 2: success as failures, comparisons and conditioning. Different lens, same thing.
Speaker 2: Freud said. Ego is the mediator. It manages reality, impulses
Speaker 2: and rules so you can function everyday.
Speaker 1: Language.
Speaker 2: Ego is equal self importance, defensiveness, don't disrespect me.
Speaker 1: And the last lens is philosophy.
Speaker 2: Ego is identification with thoughts, role and identity, making the
Speaker 2: story for the self. That's quite interesting, Yeah, which you
Speaker 2: take on all that, Professor Robert, Professor Capuccio.
Speaker 4: Well, jeez, like far be it from me to like
Speaker 4: add to chart GPT the secret. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 4: the thing that sticks out for me and that is
Speaker 4: it's all story. I think it's impossible to see yourself
Speaker 4: with complete objectivity. I mean, I don't know if you
Speaker 4: could be committed to anything, love anything, value anything, or
Speaker 4: protect yourself from anything and have a completely accurate assessment
Speaker 4: of yourself and a lack of biases. But some some
Speaker 4: stories are inspiring, some stories are tragic, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 4: how do you narrate that story? Because you're probably right
Speaker 4: to some degree on any story you're telling yourself about you. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's just what's your reference point, what chapter you're reading,
Speaker 4: and what's your index, what's your methodology to where you
Speaker 4: know if the first question out of my mouth? So
Speaker 4: I was writing about this a little bit today. There's
Speaker 4: a there's a principle in the school psychology called appreciative
Speaker 4: inquiry called the construction of principle, and the construction principle
Speaker 4: pretty much says that words create worlds that we don't
Speaker 4: just go out there and discover reality and experience reality.
Speaker 4: But we co construct reality through our language, and one
Speaker 4: of those tenets is that the quality of our life
Speaker 4: is based on the quality of the questions we ask ourselves,
Speaker 4: Like how do we direct our focus? So if I'm like,
Speaker 4: what is wrong with me? Well, I'm going to find
Speaker 4: an answer for that, and that answer because that's a
Speaker 4: very threatening question. It's saying that somehow something is dysfunctional
Speaker 4: with me and I'm going to find out what it is.
Speaker 4: And that might be a really good question later on
Speaker 4: down the line, But if you're looking to explore anything
Speaker 4: or grow anything, that's the first question you ask that's
Speaker 4: going to shut down possibilities. I think a better question
Speaker 4: is what exactly do I want in this situation? And
Speaker 4: when have I had it? Like you said earlier, people
Speaker 4: tell you, wow, I'm just not a exercise type of person.
Speaker 4: What type of person are you? Exactly? And how did you?
Speaker 1: How did you become that person?
Speaker 4: Were you always this person? What happened? You know? If
Speaker 4: you take a look at one or two experiences that
Speaker 4: most powerfully shape your ability to be the person you are, now,
Speaker 4: what were those? Yeah? You aren't you know?
Speaker 2: I think what is wrong with me? Question is disingenuous
Speaker 2: I think what is wrong with me is an intersection
Speaker 2: of self loathing and self pity. I don't think the
Speaker 2: person goes what's wrong with me is actually genuinely curious.
Speaker 1: I think it's just it's almost just a frustration statement,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: I think the you know, the more aware version of
Speaker 2: that would be, well, I keep doing this thing. I've
Speaker 2: done this three times, I've got a bad outcome three times.
Speaker 2: What's what are my results telling me? Could I change
Speaker 2: the way I do it? How do other people do it?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: There's a whole lot of better questions. I feel like,
Speaker 2: you know, it's almost like you Why doesn't.
Speaker 1: Anyone like me? Or do you want me to tell you?
Speaker 1: Because you really don't want to know? Because I could
Speaker 1: probably give you a few ideas.
Speaker 2: I don't think that nobody likes you, but I think
Speaker 2: you're a fuck of the social challenge and sit down,
Speaker 2: get your pen and paper out, and from the outside
Speaker 2: looking in, I might have a few thoughts, you know,
Speaker 2: But I think also you know that the idea of
Speaker 2: objectivity for humans is that that's in my opinion anyway,
Speaker 2: it's pretty much unattainable broadly speaking, maybe about specific things
Speaker 2: like I know nothing about this, So you tell me
Speaker 2: about it, because I know I have zero opinion, background, belief, idea,
Speaker 2: I know nothing. Well, I'm objective, right But even then,
Speaker 2: but I think the fact that we all have, you know,
Speaker 2: cognitive bias, not some of us, all of us.
Speaker 1: The fact that we all have emotional bias.
Speaker 2: The fact that we are all look through our own
Speaker 2: lens of experience and life and whatever we pay attention to,
Speaker 2: our version of reality, our background, our theology, philosophy, psychology, sociology,
Speaker 2: all of the things that have intersected with us since
Speaker 2: we could reason. And now like you and I are
Speaker 2: on this podcast, is you know, you're a fifty something.
Speaker 2: I'm a sixty two year old. So I've got these
Speaker 2: two dudes who see the world. They see the way
Speaker 2: that they do a little bit of that is genetic,
Speaker 2: but largely it's about environment, experiences, and situations. And so
Speaker 2: for me to think, even though I understand the idea
Speaker 2: of objectivity, even though I'm doing a PhD in the mind,
Speaker 2: for me to think, oh I'm objective, I'm just fucking
Speaker 2: kidding myself. That's a demonstration of ego right there. Because
Speaker 2: I have pre existing bias. I have pre existing beliefs
Speaker 2: and likes and dislikes and values and all of that
Speaker 2: shit is the lens through which I experience the world.
Speaker 1: So I can't be objective. I would like to be.
Speaker 2: I could, But I think a step in the right
Speaker 2: direction of being objectives is being able to recognize your
Speaker 2: lack of ability to be objective.
Speaker 1: Like, I think you're opening the door on you know where.
Speaker 4: Now we go.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I believe in God.
Speaker 2: I grew up in this environment where I was very
Speaker 2: much encouraged if not, you know, smashed over the head
Speaker 2: to believe that. Now, all these laters early years later,
Speaker 2: this is what I think.
Speaker 1: Do I go to church? No? Do I read the Bible?
Speaker 1: Not a luck?
Speaker 4: Do I do I? Yeah?
Speaker 1: But also could I be wrong? Yes? I could be wrong.
Speaker 1: Could the Bible be wrong? Yes?
Speaker 2: Could it be a work of fiction or a work
Speaker 2: of you know, or maybe a better both or well,
Speaker 2: the answer is yes. The truth is I do not know,
Speaker 2: which is also a prerequisite for faith, because if you
Speaker 2: had knowledge, then there's no need for faith.
Speaker 1: Steps down off soapbox.
Speaker 4: That's it. This is an interesting conversation because when you
Speaker 4: go into the duality of something or the paradox of something,
Speaker 4: could I be wrong? And what else is true? I
Speaker 4: think is enormously health healthy, not just for critical thinking,
Speaker 4: but for any type of transformation or overall well being.
Speaker 4: Because let's go back to that, like what's wrong with me?
Speaker 4: And you're saying, well, that's that's an honest question. You're
Speaker 4: just in a state of self loathing and frustration. So
Speaker 4: if I'm in that state right and my identity is
Speaker 4: something where my story around who I am is where
Speaker 4: I get all of my security from, am I able
Speaker 4: to engage in a constructive conversation even it's like, hey,
Speaker 4: another great example uses I just had. You know, I
Speaker 4: just had these three negative outcomes based on this behavior.
Speaker 4: Maybe I want to look at that. I'm probably not
Speaker 4: even capable of looking at it. If I'm in a
Speaker 4: what's wrong with me state, like I'm functioning out of
Speaker 4: a level of frustration and anxiety. That is not a
Speaker 4: good mental state to engage in critical thinking and creativity.
Speaker 4: So sometimes it's a matter of like, what is that
Speaker 4: story and go back and ask yourself, Okay, well what's
Speaker 4: right with me? Who am I? And what aspects of
Speaker 4: that am I proud of? And then I think once
Speaker 4: you get into that psychological state, and it opens up
Speaker 4: for creativity, openness. You're more suggestible not only through your
Speaker 4: own thought patterns, but the insights of others. Another question
Speaker 4: could be like, well, what's the behavior that's a discrepancy
Speaker 4: between me and when I'm most proud of myself or
Speaker 4: when I'm doing what I think I need to do
Speaker 4: and the results I'm getting. There's a discrepancy there that
Speaker 4: is a much more constructive state of mind, where those
Speaker 4: those insights now land. I could go, ah, Okay, first
Speaker 4: of all, it's not me. What's wrong with me or
Speaker 4: my behaviors are producing something. So it's still like I'm responsible,
Speaker 4: it's accountable, but it's not like a blame game. It's
Speaker 4: it's more of looking at the behavior and comparing that
Speaker 4: to what is it within your story, yourself, your ego
Speaker 4: that you value is being contradicted by these behaviors. What's
Speaker 4: gone sorry dude, kick down, kick out? And why would
Speaker 4: you engage in those behaviors? So if it's like, I
Speaker 4: imagine myself as someone who is at my core, I'm empathetic,
Speaker 4: I'm energetic, I'm dynamic. I connect with others. But you know,
Speaker 4: the past three meetings I had at work where an
Speaker 4: epic fail because I was at the bar last night
Speaker 4: and I woke up hung over and I can't focus
Speaker 4: on the job. Well, okay, why am I doing that?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 4: What am I wanting there? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yes, there's a reason.
Speaker 4: There's a reason why I'm there and not at home
Speaker 4: reading a book or not at home sitting at the
Speaker 4: table with my family, Like, what is going on? But
Speaker 4: I think starting from and this is where the whole
Speaker 4: point about confidence comes in. What is it that gets
Speaker 4: you to a point where you can engage in patterns
Speaker 4: of thoughts and behaviors and be able to look at
Speaker 4: yourself objectively without being a threat to self, to where
Speaker 4: you just will not examine that which needs to be examined.
Speaker 1: I have an answer to that.
Speaker 2: I believe one of the biggest problems, challenges, whatever you
Speaker 2: want to call it, in this is that people's identity
Speaker 2: is intertwined with what they believe want to believe. It's
Speaker 2: intertwined with their stories, it's intertwined with their values, it's
Speaker 2: intertwined with their version of reality and truth.
Speaker 1: And the problem with that is when I question your
Speaker 1: version of the truth, or your ideas or your philosophy
Speaker 1: or your theology. You feel like I'm attacking you, right,
Speaker 1: and so therefore like because well, a Christian.
Speaker 2: Is who I am, A vegan is who I am,
Speaker 2: an athlete is who I am, an EmPATH is who
Speaker 2: I am.
Speaker 1: Right, there's all this strong identity.
Speaker 2: So when you go, oh, look, maybe you know part
Speaker 2: of me is bothered by things too, like, for example, somebody.
Speaker 1: Going, you know, saying something about you know, some of
Speaker 1: my beliefs God?
Speaker 2: For example, Right, if I'm going to be brave, I
Speaker 2: need to say, well, Craig, how often do you get
Speaker 2: shit wrong? I don't know, probably ten to twenty times
Speaker 2: a day, right, how many times in the last you know,
Speaker 2: fifty years, I don't know, fucking one hundred thousand, who knows?
Speaker 1: So do you think you're going to get stuff wrong
Speaker 1: moving forward? No, No, I don't because I know everything
Speaker 1: and I'm right.
Speaker 2: Dude, you're not. You just want to be because being
Speaker 2: right makes you comfortable. You love being right because you
Speaker 2: hate the thought that you could be fucking wrong. You
Speaker 2: hate the thought that Bobby might know more than you,
Speaker 2: and you feel dumb and look dumb, or it's so
Speaker 2: you think, and so you have this emotion that overrides everything.
Speaker 1: So I know what I believe. I believe certain things
Speaker 1: I really do, but also I don't know that they
Speaker 1: are true, but I believe them nonetheless, which is as
Speaker 1: I said, it's a it's faith in operation, right. So
Speaker 1: I think that's the challenge, is that when.
Speaker 2: Someone believes something they don't believe, they could be wrong.
Speaker 2: That's a problem because we're fucking wrong all the.
Speaker 1: Time, you know.
Speaker 4: And if you are, you go If I am my beliefs, well,
Speaker 4: my beliefs are where I get my certainty from my
Speaker 4: sense of saft. So if you're anything that threatens that,
Speaker 4: you know, the question becomes if you're not, If you
Speaker 4: are not your beliefs, what are you? That's what I say.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what Eckhart told says, I'm the awareness
Speaker 2: of everything that I'm not. You know, he would tell
Speaker 2: you your awareness, that your energy, that you're that your intellect,
Speaker 2: that you're all of that stuff. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't. I think the who am I? Is more
Speaker 2: a philosophical than a helpful question for me anyway. But
Speaker 2: I think putting yourself in any pigeon hole metaphoric pigeon
Speaker 2: hole and going I am this because that means that's
Speaker 2: all you can be. You know, I'm not a single thing.
Speaker 2: I'm an intersection of things.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I'm spiritual, I'm emotional, I'm creative, I'm funny, I'm stupid,
Speaker 2: I'm clever, I'm physical, I'm not physical.
Speaker 1: I'm you know. And I think that's okay. And there's
Speaker 1: stuff I will never know. There's stuff I.
Speaker 2: Will always get wrong. There are things like even in
Speaker 2: this conversation that I go, shut the fuck up me.
Speaker 2: You know that you and I are both pretty good
Speaker 2: at self loathing, by the way, right, and we've spoken
Speaker 2: about that. But it's like if I wait until yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: if I've got if I wait until i'm happy with
Speaker 2: I'm totally happy with me, Like I think, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I've really I'm fucking I've nailed it, which I will
Speaker 2: never think. Doesn't mean I think I'm a bad person
Speaker 2: or a piece of shit. But I realize that I'm flawed.
Speaker 2: I realize I'm going to get things wrong. I realize
Speaker 2: I'm going to hurt people's feelings while not ever wanting
Speaker 2: to hurt people's feelings, but I know that's going to
Speaker 2: happen because that's a human experience. So I go, well,
Speaker 2: I'm flawed and a bit broken, also at times a
Speaker 2: bit funny and a bit clever. But on the list,
Speaker 2: I can't wipe for fucking perfection because I'll be dead.
Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna do what I do and try
Speaker 2: and do it with awareness and humility and love.
Speaker 1: And that's it. That's me.
Speaker 4: And I think when you say that humility love for me,
Speaker 4: it's it's like without understanding, and I don't. I don't
Speaker 4: know who I am. There's so many aspects to me.
Speaker 4: I don't know myself in its entirety and all the
Speaker 4: influences that make me like there are things that I
Speaker 4: do on a daily basis I think most people do
Speaker 4: on a daily but I have no idea why I
Speaker 4: did that. I know what my story is about why
Speaker 4: I did that, but I don't know. But for me,
Speaker 4: it goes back to that concept that we talked about
Speaker 4: self authoring. Who I am is what in this moment
Speaker 4: I resonate with. I choose to be. I am my word,
Speaker 4: I am my promises, I am my purpose, which is
Speaker 4: what is mean to me and how I want to
Speaker 4: contribute that or why it's important for me to share
Speaker 4: that I think the issue is sometimes, and I'm talking
Speaker 4: about this tomorrow night, we mistake social contracts for values.
Speaker 4: I am my values, you know, like honesty is it's
Speaker 4: not in my mind, it's not really a value. Or
Speaker 4: trust is not really a value. It's a social contract.
Speaker 4: It's very important. It's critical for societies to work. Like
Speaker 4: if I say, hey, could you like watch my car
Speaker 4: for a minute, I need to have some level of
Speaker 4: certainty that you're not just going to steal it. So
Speaker 4: that kind of works in a society. But when I
Speaker 4: think of a value, I think of something that resonates
Speaker 4: with me to the point that is so sacred that
Speaker 4: I become most engaged with life when I partake in
Speaker 4: this thing. Like for me, a value is teaching. Teaching
Speaker 4: is a value. Back in the day, travel used to
Speaker 4: be a value. Play is a value. Humor, appreciation and beauty, excellence,
Speaker 4: all those things, those are values. They draw me out
Speaker 4: and energize me. And it's not about the outcome. It's
Speaker 4: not like I like this because when I do this,
Speaker 4: this happens. The payoff is in the process itself. So
Speaker 4: those things are meaningful for their own sake. That's how
Speaker 4: I look at values, and I think building a story
Speaker 4: on I am this gives direction without rigidity because it's
Speaker 4: not a belief. I am definitely not my beliefs, and
Speaker 4: I have strong beliefs held lightly.
Speaker 2: It just dawned on me as you were speaking, as
Speaker 2: we're wrapping up here, that's when I started my research,
Speaker 2: which obviously my stuff comes broadly under the banner of
Speaker 2: self awareness, like understanding me, understanding may for others, you know,
Speaker 2: social situational awareness, blah blah blah. And I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: when did they start researching self awareness or you know
Speaker 2: this kind of and obviously, well, not obviously, but I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, oh, you know, it's probably been It's probably
Speaker 2: been some kind of research or talk or theorizing about
Speaker 2: this for one hundred years or more. Because even the
Speaker 2: field of psychology, which a lot of people don't realize,
Speaker 2: like psychology itself as a science is I think one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years old.
Speaker 1: It's not old.
Speaker 2: But yeah, obviously Socrates the beginning of wisdom is to
Speaker 2: know thyself, right, and that was two and a half
Speaker 2: thousand years ago. I'm like, well, allegedly Socrates, it's attributed,
Speaker 2: but let's just say some old stoic right, but it's
Speaker 2: people have been talking about this shit forever, trying to
Speaker 2: figure out want to achieve it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think so. I don't think so.
Speaker 2: Hey mate, it's always good to talk to you too.
Speaker 2: The self Helppan Todote is the name of Bobby's podcast.
Speaker 2: Robert Capuccio dot com.
Speaker 1: Am I right on that?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 2: Upercapuccio dot com. You can also follow him on Insta.
Speaker 2: He's a little bit needy, so jump on Insta if
Speaker 2: you wouldn't follow him.
Speaker 4: Actually, LinkedIn is the best place to get me.
Speaker 2: Okay, fuck ig Go to LinkedIn. Go to LinkedIn. I
Speaker 2: stand corrected. Thanks mate, we'll talk again soon.
Speaker 4: See you next week.