WEBVTT - The Confession | 4 0:00:01.200 --> 0:00:05.200 Hell, I was up speaking. Oh hi, Rachelle, Yeah, it's lez. 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:07.920 How are you good, Banks Brusa? Are you good? 0:00:07.960 --> 0:00:08.920 You're okay to talk now? 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:10.920 Yeah? I am now okay. 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:14.280 The person our Irish cold case cop Liz McNaughton is 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:19.279 speaking to is Rochelle, David Leanne's youngest daughter. She was 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.720 only nine when it's disappeared. In this phone call, she's 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.880 thirty three, trying to recall the days leading up to 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.760 her grandfather vanishing. Margaret that's Rachelle's grandmother and Lessa's first 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:33.800 ex wife, were staying at the family home while Leanne 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:36.320 was in hospital in Brisbane. 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:41.639 I remember the hair mm hm. I remember my grandmother 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:47.879 was around as well. Yeah, that wasn't a very friendly 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.519 situation when they were the girl I remember, I remember 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.840 where become he came in room. Who'd demeanor changed all 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:56.360 the time? Now very nasty. 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.160 Rochelle was close to her granddad. By all accounts, she 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:04.040 was his favorite, so she took his disappearance hard, suffering 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.840 recurring nightmares every time. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.960 The nightmare happened in the car. And you're always kind 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.639 of picking out from school and you always hate throach flip. 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.679 You always pointed in the back. It was every single night. 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.800 After we found out, it was every single night for 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:25.559 a month, every single night. 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:27.399 Wow, that's a long time. 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:31.480 It was only May. They kept having the nightmare. It 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:35.520 was always May at the school, at the Climate school, 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:38.040 by myself. He came, he picked me up. 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:47.000 I'm Callum Dness and I'm Joe Townsend. This is perfect alibi. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.080 When Liz McNaughton started her investigation in twenty fifteen, she 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:27.079 was essentially starting from scratch. Two years later, she'd hear 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.799 an explosive confession. We'll talk about that later this episode, 0:02:31.280 --> 0:02:34.760 but for now. In twenty fifteen, Liz poured over hundreds 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.920 of pages of documents, paying very close attention to what 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.760 the Phillips children had told police. This reckons that in 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.720 murder investigations, children are most likely to tell the story 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:50.160 that's closest to the truth. Jacqueline is David and Leanne's 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:54.680 eldest daughter. She was fourteen when those disappeared. Police are 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:57.320 talking to Jacqueline at her house while a TV plays 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.839 in the background. She recalls that when Leanne came home 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.320 from hospital in Brisbane two weeks after Les was last seen, 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.919 she was distraught and insisted he had visited her. 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:14.119 Oh, I remember Monster just absolutely crying. She used to say, 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.760 I saw him. She was just hysterical, like she was 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:23.480 just crying. She was so upset. I had never seen 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:24.800 her upset the way she was. 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:30.280 These police tapes were laid handed to a coroner. Detectives 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:34.360 thought her father, David, the former detective, was suspiciously apathetic 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.960 about Les's disappearance, but Jacqueline paints a completely different picture. 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.160 I remember him standing. 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:45.920 In the bedroom, you know, just going over, you know, 0:03:46.360 --> 0:04:01.160 looking at things. You go on now, you just. 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.360 Just going through things, trying to work out up. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:02.200 Leia. 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.800 I had some clothes and that's still in the cupboard. 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.080 He just said a mom, don't worry, he'll come back, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:17.080 or we'll find it. Is your dad dead, so don't worry. 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:17.480 You'll find you. 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:24.640 And then he nevers, you just go on, don't worry, No, 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:26.840 we'll find him. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:27.200 Might that. 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:31.440 Liz McNaughton flew down to Melbourne with her boss to 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.440 interview Leanne. Leanne was interviewed in the original nineteen ninety 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:39.400 three investigation and again in twenty eleven. She never walked 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:42.600 back her account of seeing Les in hospital, even when 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.000 confronted with evidence that Les never visited her. She stuck 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:49.440 to her guns, but it had been six years since 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.640 police had last spoken to her, and Liz was hoping 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.560 the passage of time might have led Leanne to admit 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.800 she got it wrong. She and her colleague pressed Leanne 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:01.920 on her story and the evidence Les never visited her. 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.400 This is how she responded, but I still believe he did. 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:09.800 I know you may not believe that, but I still 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:10.479 believe you did. 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.400 You know, you say you believe you came to see you, watchful, 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:15.760 Why do you say you believe you came to see you? 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:17.040 What what makes you believe? 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.359 She would say, I believe he did. There was never 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:29.080 a I am sure and I am certain that he did. 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.360 It was always well, I believe he did. Well, that's 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.320 what I recall, just. 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.640 Trying to put your memory by it and because it's 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:39.960 just that you keep saying I believe he did. But 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.080 you don't seem to be committed to. 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:42.839 You do you know what I mean? 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.320 I don't know, because if you're you know, if you're mistaken, 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.480 that that's okay. I'm sure you've been in hospital about time. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.160 So yeah, what makes you so sure that you came 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.680 to your hospital to see you because he always came 0:05:57.720 --> 0:05:59.000 to you when I was in hospital. 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:02.840 He saw me. As we've mentioned, coroners found that Liz 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:06.320 didn't visit Leanne in hospital in Brisbane, but that Leanne 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.560 sincerely believes that he did. 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.359 And that Leanne was a credible witness. 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:10.880 That's right. 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.760 Leanne was on prescription medication as part of her hospital 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:18.680 treatment at the time, so that's understandable. Maybe her memory 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.320 was a bit affected or she felt a bit hazy exactly. 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.720 That can happen, particularly when neuron say like heavy drugs 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:26.360 in hospital. 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:31.919 Liz is a warm woman, she's a hugger, and recalling 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:36.560 her interview with Leanne, she's actually full of empathy because 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:41.440 when Liz spoke to Leanne, she was a widow. David 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.400 died in twenty fifteen. 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.640 Yeah, David had a really bad stroke in nineteen ninety 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.760 four and then suffered a really long period of poor 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:51.960 health right up until he died in twenty fifteen. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.520 And Leanne told Liz that the stroke changed his personality. 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:01.919 He started lying and he became violent, tired. 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:08.600 Yeah, I felt she was tired. Protective of her children 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:14.360 was then and stellees no as adults, protective of her grandchildren. 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.240 And that's her mother, isn't it you know? So her 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.080 protective nature has said and to protect what she has left. 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:24.880 She's been strange from the rest of the farmily and 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.960 she only has her children and her grandchildren. She's protective. 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:32.480 That's what I felt she was. I felt she was tired. 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.720 The Phillips family were crucial witnesses to the day Les 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.920 was last seen alive. We've covered what happened that day 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.880 previously and by the time Liz picked up the investigation, 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.800 so had a coronial in quest, the original police investigation 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:52.520 into Less's disappearance, and a twenty eleven review, But Liz 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:57.840 discovered crucial information those inquiries had missed. The story of 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:02.360 what happened that day involved seven people, David, his mother 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:06.560 in law, Margaret, family friend, Tony Hoyer, and the four 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.520 Phillips kids. So let's start with the adults, Okay. 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:14.040 Back in nineteen ninety three, Tony told police he'd gone 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.239 to the Phillips house that afternoon with a big bag 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:22.120 of prawns. When he arrived, he found Lez packing his car. 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.840 He said he was going to Brisbane to visit Leanne. 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.400 Tony asked to put the prawns inside, but Lez said 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:33.280 no because he'd just locked up the house. Margaret and 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.960 David said when they returned home they found a note 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:37.640 from Lez. 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:41.960 Yeah. So this sticks out to me because if Les 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.480 couldn't be asked unlocking the house to let Tony in 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.360 his bag of prawns in, it didn't make sense that 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:50.520 he'd later changed his mind unlock the house and go 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.679 in and leave a note. The other thing is David 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.480 said the note read call Tony or Tony called. Margaret 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.360 said the note read Tony called with prawns. We'll call 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:04.120 back at five pm. But police never saw the actual note. 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.560 He was never handed in as evidence to them. 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.440 So we have three different versions of what happened that day. 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.320 Was he there, did he come back? Was there a 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.240 note left? Did Lairs leave the note? 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.400 Then there was Tony's description of the car and trailer. 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:22.200 He described how the car was and how the trailer was. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.120 They weren't hooked up, or as when David said when 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.520 he left or they left to take the kids off 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.000 to the display Holmes that they were hooked up. 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:35.240 By twenty eleven, Tony had a different memory of that day. 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:39.600 This time, when he arrived, Les wasn't outside packing his car. 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.040 And I remember dropping off the stuff and then he 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.600 came to I just nobody was saying, so I banged 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.600 on the door and then I put the car crawls 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:50.920 there official or whatever was it A polly put it 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.560 at the door. Then as I was walking away, he 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.679 came to the door and I said, oh, there's. 0:09:55.160 --> 0:09:57.360 He and then he says, oh, yep. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:09:59.920 I said, I just got some sepood the other day, 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.800 and then he worries him and that was it, and 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:04.280 that was it. 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.360 That was it. In this version, Tony successfully dropped off 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:12.200 the prawns, and Les doesn't mention anything about going to Brisbane. 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:14.400 Did Lis indicate to you what he was going to 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:15.360 do for the rest of the day. 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:17.920 We didn't. 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.520 I didn't don't care or didn't care on whatever. 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:22.520 I didn't talk to him for long. 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.560 So yeah, it was just like a in an outsort. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.120 So back in nineteen ninety three, David and Margaret told 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.160 police that Tony came around later that night with the 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.000 seafood to cook up the barbecue, but Tony said he 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:39.839 came back a week and a half later. 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:44.560 Hang On in nineteen ninety four, didn't Tony amend that 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.920 same statement while on the stand at the coronial inquest, 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.080 saying he did in fact return that evening. 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.000 Yeah he did, but he said that he stayed for 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:58.000 two hours, whereas David said Tony stayed the night. So 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:02.080 in twenty eleven, detectives western Tony about this discrepancy. 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:04.880 When you left, do you remember where you went? 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.640 What you did? No, I can't remember. 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.560 I think probably went home. It's probably it. 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.840 So son, you say about a week and half, lady, 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:19.679 you saw you go back around there. 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:24.480 But Dave says in his statement, he says that you 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:25.679 do go around. 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.720 There that night, but there you go. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.840 So I don't know, but I think, actually I think 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.640 I might might have. It's important that we're fair to 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.800 Tony here. From his perspective, that day wouldn't be particularly memorable. 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:42.720 He showed up at the Phillips house some family friends 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.200 of his with a bag of seafood to have a barbecue. 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.720 He did that all the time, so you kind of 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:50.640 get why the details of that might change over the years, 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.480 which is the point he made to police when questioned 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:54.719 about these discrepancies. 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.160 The second time he was Footman two and the third 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.200 time he was Footman too, he couldn't recall that first 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:03.920 a cone. But he said that must be okay, because 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:04.920 that's why I first said. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.480 But what struck is when she went back and looked 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.400 at Tony's original statement was that he never actually told 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.679 police that this encounter with Les occurred on Sunday, the 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:16.640 eighteenth of April. 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.680 No, we didn't nomine a parteicularly just said for Sunday. 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.200 So what did he tell police? Why did they think 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.480 this happened on the eighteenth of April? 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.480 Well, already statement Tony said, I can't remember the date, 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.719 but it was on a Sunday last month, and I 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.600 went around to Dave's house. So detectives just assumed that 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:41.040 he must have been talking about the same Sunday as 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:44.840 Margaret and David. But get this, when police spoke to 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.680 him again in twenty eleven, he wasn't even sure that 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:49.640 this whole thing happened on a weekend. 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:53.280 Did let's tell you when David was at the time. 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.880 Yeah, no, I can't recall. I thought. 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:57.800 I just said, oh, I know he would have been 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:00.280 at work, so on this Sunday, I thought. I didn't 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:07.480 go around the word was it? I I don't know 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:08.000 where he was. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.360 David told police that after getting some fast food with 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:15.320 Margaret and the kids. The family stopped off to watch 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:16.760 a game of cricket, and we. 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:17.680 Drove back to Humbry. 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:25.480 Jackson stopped off and figure guy had a few fiends. 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:33.400 That's it, except Margaret made no mention of stopping off 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:33.960 at the cricket. 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:39.679 Yes, so Liz is the first one to realize that Margaret, David, 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:44.240 and Tony's stories about that crucial day don't line up. 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.840 Or she was the only one to line their statements 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.040 up on a timeline, which is kind of wild to 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:49.840 think about, right. 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:51.640 What about the kids? 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.840 Yep, so the youngest Phillips girl was only nine when 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.560 this happened. The eldest was I think fourteen. Police questioned 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:02.520 them years later when they adults. Jacqueline and Danielle, who 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.920 were the two eldest, said they remembered visiting display homes, 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.080 but when she was questioned by police in twenty eleven, 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:13.600 Jacqueline said that Nana Margaret didn't attend. Her memory was 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:15.960 that it was only David and the three kids that 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.360 went and when they returned home, Margaret was sweeping out 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.080 the house. Lizz's police report says that after a long 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.880 discussion with her parents, she changed her statement, but Danielle, 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.560 who's the second eldest, also said that she didn't remember 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.200 their nan coming with them on this family outing either. 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:38.120 Samantha Phillips, who was only eleven when Le's disappeared, thought 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.400 he vanished on a school day and I. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.200 Remember say good bord him in the morning to go 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.880 to school and coming back at all his stuff gone. 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.640 And Rochelle, who's the youngest, was in hospital in Townsville 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.360 with appendicitis shortly before Les went missing. She said that 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.000 when she got home, which was on a Friday, he 0:14:58.160 --> 0:14:58.600 was gone. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.720 I got home. Yeah, it wasn't there. 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:04.480 Yeah, you said that in your statement. 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.880 Okay, he wasn't there. His stuff wasn't there. Nothing was 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:14.200 there at all. Even in the bungalow. There was none 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.200 of them stuff around that would look gone. 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:23.760 So, in other words, everybody has a different story of 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:24.400 that day. 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.280 Do you believe that Les was alive on the eighteenth 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:35.840 of April? 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:44.840 No, I do not believe that, definitely not. So that's 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:45.600 my opinion. 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:51.760 Isn't it wild that nobody until Liz mcnorton had lined 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:53.800 up all of those differing accounts. 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:55.920 I thought that would have been the first thing that 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:56.520 you did right. 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:57.000 Hm. 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.720 The other thing that I think about when I look 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.840 at these accounts of that day is it just makes 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.640 me feel really sorry for the Phillips children. Their dad 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.360 took them on this normal, frankly quite boring outing to 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.400 go look at display homes, and it just happens to 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:16.320 be central in what happened to this unsolved murder of 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.200 their grandfather. It's just I really feel for them. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:24.120 Yeah, they've been questioned by police for decades and really 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.880 dragged into this investigation. 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.400 And they've had to grapple with some pretty confronting questions. 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:35.560 I believe that they were ras and weft understand where 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.880 did he go? Why did he leave without sand? Why 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:39.360 did he not. 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:39.800 Speak to you? 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.640 Has he loved us? We cared for the children, and 0:16:43.720 --> 0:16:46.280 I don't think he would have left with oat san 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:47.520 his goodbyes. 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.400 By the time they spoke to the now adult Phillips children, 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.200 they were aware that their father had long been the 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:58.680 suspect in their grandfather's murder, and in the audio recordings 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.400 you can hear them each processing the idea that that 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:02.800 Dad might be guilty. 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:05.560 I'm not saying whether Dad did it or not. 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:07.560 I honestly have no idea young. 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:11.600 We were too young to even consider what could. 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.920 Have happened to granddad. We just know we thought he left. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:18.439 Yep. And because they were only children when Le's disappeared, 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.080 there was stuff happening in the house that they had 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:25.639 no idea about, such as the family finances. Here's Jacqueline's 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.640 reaction when police informed her that Les had loaned her 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:30.400 parents thirty one thousand dollars. 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:32.560 How four. 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:37.400 Always thought we. 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.320 Were financially stable. 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:46.120 Oh my god, he meant thirty one thousand dollars. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.960 What did they do thirty one thousand dollars? 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.199 Jacqueline was stunned to hear that there was still money 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:00.879 completely unaccounted for. And that's this estate. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.360 She hasn't gained anything from it. 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.200 With granddad alive and building us a house, a land 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:15.760 of house, that would have been more beneficial. 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.119 Unless he wasn't really going to build that house, and 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:24.920 he was gonna sit along the house and hard a 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:25.840 little way about there. 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:31.560 But he still bought didn't he still buy us at 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:32.240 block of land? 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.600 Yes, so you're. 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:36.920 Saying he's gonna sell that block of land to build 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:38.200 a house in Cardwell. 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:44.320 We're not sure, but he seems to have kept the 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:50.719 purchase of the house at Cardwell secret from everyone. Yeah, 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.399 old you do that. He hasn't told obviously you and 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:55.680 your sisters. He hasn't told your. 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:56.120 Mother, Dad. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:56.639 No. 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.760 We asked all four of David's daughters if they'd like 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.120 to be interviewed for this podcast, but they declined, and 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:10.280 we absolutely respect that. We've stuck to their police interviews 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.159 and except they were just kids at the time, unwittingly 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.359 dragged into a pretty awful event through no fault of 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:17.800 their own. 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.280 Let's go back to the timeline for when Les goes missing. 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:27.040 The three adults, David, Margaret, and Tony gave completely contradictory 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.040 accounts of the last day Les was supposedly seen alive, 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:31.040 which was the Sunday. 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.399 So when was Les really last scene alive? 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.800 Well, Liz thinks that the last time anyone can say 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.480 for certain that Les was definitely alive was on a Thursday. 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:47.000 That's Thursday, the fifteenth of April. Rochelle, the youngest, told 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.480 police that Les called her when she was in hospital, 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:52.840 and her nursing notes actually confirmed that this call did 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:53.480 take place. 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:58.480 I think that's probably the last time that anybody can 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:04.760 with creepd sure that they actually spoke two lairs and 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.160 knew it was lairs. And that's his granddaughter. She knows 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:13.720 her grandfather. We don't have any concrete evidence to suggest 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:16.840 that anybody else saw him or had a conversation with 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:18.080 him from that time. 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.679 So we have three adults here, Margaret who died in 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:28.840 twenty twenty, Tony and David, each telling different stories. I mean, 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:29.920 what's going on? 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:36.919 I always maintee and probably still do that. Margaret knows 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.800 more than Margaret, her husband saying that she knows. That's 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:42.400 my that's my feelin. 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:48.160 This isn't just Lizza's suspicion here. Here's what Samantha told police, 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:49.920 but which. 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:52.199 Has been bothering me for quite a few years. 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:54.000 Is my grandmother. 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:57.280 And was very different after that. 0:20:58.320 --> 0:20:59.600 Okay, different house. 0:20:59.359 --> 0:20:59.960 She was very different. 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:01.639 Well to kill us has been since. 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:04.159 And again, I mean a different how when you came 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:05.320 back to Melbourne. 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:10.920 Came back Broode. We were a burden to her? 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:18.760 Can I say something I'm a detective or any far 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:21.320 probably something, just not to think about it all over again. 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.000 But could Nan have done it? 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:26.400 Don't cover it up? 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.399 WHOA? So in case you missed that audio, she says, 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:37.560 could Nan, So that's Margaret have done it, and dad 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:43.919 she's talking about David Phillips have covered it up. So 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.600 we've all got this right. The Phillips children also have 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:52.000 differing accounts. Some of them say that Nana Margaret wasn't 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:54.679 with them when they visited those display homes with their 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.160 dad David. But they were just kids and nineteen ninety 0:21:58.160 --> 0:21:59.280 three is a long time ago. 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:01.480 That's right. You have to take it with a grain 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:04.320 of salt, I suppose. But the other thing I keep 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.320 thinking about is that Margaret spent a lot of time 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.160 with Les at the Phillips house. You know, David was working, 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:12.960 the kids were at school. Leanne, as we know, was 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:15.879 all the way in hospital in Brisbane, so it was 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.920 just her and Les there during the day. She's deceased now, 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:22.720 of course, so we'll never know exactly what she did 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:25.719 or saw on you. But just take a listen to 0:22:25.760 --> 0:22:27.960 what Leanne said about Margaret her mother. 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:30.960 Oh, I think mum has an opinion on what happened. 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:32.360 I just agree with her opinion. 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.159 You have you heard that from your mum or Oh, 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:35.720 we had an. 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:38.120 Argument over it a few months ago. 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:40.920 Okay, what was said during. 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:41.800 That conversation. 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.879 Even David's own parents suspected that he may have been 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:52.680 responsible for Less's murder. This is his sister, Christine. 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.960 Well, I asked my mum and dada, and dad said, 0:22:56.520 --> 0:23:02.560 I don't know. My mom goes. Possibly they went to 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:06.760 heaven thinking that their son's a murderer and didn't have 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:07.520 any answers. 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.640