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Speaker 1: A study conducted lead researchers at Monash Uni asking teachers

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Speaker 1: how they feel about their profession, and primarily one of

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Speaker 1: the questions in the survey that was put to them

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Speaker 1: was do you feel safe at school? And of the

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Speaker 1: eight thousand, two hundred teachers, a quarter of them feel unsafe,

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Speaker 1: and some of those are willing to leave their chosen

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Speaker 1: profession because they feel unsafe. Let's have a chat about that.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Fiona Longmuir is Senior Lecture Educational Leadership at Monash

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Speaker 1: University and joins me now for you own.

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Speaker 2: A good morning, good morning, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I'm surprised or not by it

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Speaker 1: by this result. It sort of points to where things

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Speaker 1: have been heading. I suppose.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I think we've known for a while, particularly

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Speaker 2: about issues to teach shortages and that we've got a

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Speaker 2: lot of teachers leaving the profession over the last few years.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, so we knew from the Bigger Project that

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Speaker 2: this was an issue, and obviously just from general knowledge

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Speaker 2: around the community that schools are and have been doing

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Speaker 2: it pretty tough for a while for teachers and kids.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, we need to think about how we can respond.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, concerning to read some of the things

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Speaker 1: people have been saying and teachers suggesting that the need

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Speaker 1: for children to be at school outweighs the safety of

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Speaker 1: the staff at school. That's hardly encouraging to want to

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Speaker 1: be teachers to join the profession.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, look, I think teachers go. It is one

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Speaker 2: of the issues I think in terms of the kind

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Speaker 2: of balance of that need, like we need it to

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Speaker 2: be a safe workplace, like everyone had the right to

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Speaker 2: a safe workplace, sure, but also we need students have

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Speaker 2: a right to education, and we need to be able

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Speaker 2: to help students learn and grow and manage their own

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Speaker 2: diverse individual needs. And you know, sometimes that can be

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Speaker 2: more difficult than others. And so we need to think

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Speaker 2: about how we can make sure we're supporting our students

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Speaker 2: in the best ways that we can. And I guess

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Speaker 2: what themes to be happening, or our sense of what's happening,

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Speaker 2: is that with fewer resources, fewer teachers, more stress and

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Speaker 2: strain on communities, on schools, that is becoming harder and

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Speaker 2: harder to correctly manage.

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Speaker 1: It's happening everywhere, though, isn't it. I mean, schools are

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Speaker 1: just one part of it, But what you've just said

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Speaker 1: there you could almost apply across society as a whole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I think you know, we

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Speaker 2: are living in I guess some challenging times, you know, economics,

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Speaker 2: social divisions, all of those kinds of things, and they

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Speaker 2: play out in our social institutions, and of course they

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Speaker 2: play out in schools. So in some ways, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of I guess technical or policy things,

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Speaker 2: perhaps it could be done, but also as a society,

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Speaker 2: we need to think about, you know, what we want

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Speaker 2: schools to do and be, what we want our communities

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Speaker 2: to do and be, and into show in schools because

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Speaker 2: they're developing our future communities, the kinds of respect to

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Speaker 2: care for each other, working together, collaboration, cooperation that we

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Speaker 2: need to have for our world if we want to

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Speaker 2: keep dealing with the challenges in front of us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So the attrition in schools is safety. Safety would

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Speaker 1: just be one of the reasons. I imagine. I just

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Speaker 1: wonder how high up that is because you know, burnout, workloads,

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Speaker 1: all of that, recognition, all of those would play a role.

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Speaker 1: And how high up is safety? Is it one of

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Speaker 1: the top reasons?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, there's a few different reasons. They're kind

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Speaker 2: of interact in some ways. But what we found actually

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Speaker 2: in the biggest study that we drew this paper from,

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Speaker 2: was that the biggest reason for leaving was actually workload.

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Speaker 2: So that people spoke about. You know, obviously there's the

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Speaker 2: amount of work and the extra hours that teachers are

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Speaker 2: required to work in order to you know, adequate we

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Speaker 2: do the jobs that they want to do for their students.

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Speaker 2: But also there's the intensity of the work that they

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Speaker 2: talk about, so you know, the actual sort of amount

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Speaker 2: of mental loads, emotional load, et cetera that comes into

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Speaker 2: the hours that they do. And safety plays into that

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Speaker 2: a little bit, I think, And you know, safety we've

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Speaker 2: sort of talked about it in a few different ways.

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Speaker 2: There's obviously physical safety that there's also psychosocial safety. There's

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Speaker 2: also pictures talking about worrying about students being safe as well.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, so there's a whole range of factors and

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Speaker 2: all of those, as I say, they all interact together

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Speaker 2: with you know, issues of workloads, are feeling respective as

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Speaker 2: well or if he's a big one, you know, obviously

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Speaker 2: if you've got challenging you know, things happening with students

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Speaker 2: and parents, you don't feel respective for the hard work

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Speaker 2: that you're doing. So yeah, all of those are factors

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Speaker 2: for sure.

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Speaker 1: Right in the report to quote a little bit from it,

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Speaker 1: and this is teachers talking to the interviewers. Students at

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Speaker 1: my school hit, punch, bite, knockdown teachers. We don't expel

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Speaker 1: or exclude students. Scary as all hell. I was told

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Speaker 1: by deputy last year that it was my fault and

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Speaker 1: I needed to move faster. Another one here, or maybe

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Speaker 1: it's the same one, I'm not sure. In the past

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Speaker 1: six years, I've been punched, hit, pinched, kicked, scratched, had

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Speaker 1: my breasts and groined, grabbed my hand, hurts permanently from

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Speaker 1: a student who grabbed my little finger, twisted till it

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Speaker 1: crunched twice. My principal says, all teachers get hit or

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Speaker 1: spat on at some time in their career. They just

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Speaker 1: get on with it. Who put up with that in

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Speaker 1: a workplace?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, they are some pretty horrific stories,

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately, teachers do put up with us quite often.

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Speaker 2: We hear that a lot, and they do it because,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're committed to their profession. They're committed to

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Speaker 2: the young people. That they're trying to help. There is

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Speaker 2: you know, there is a need I think to look

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Speaker 2: more at, you know, back to that issue of right

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Speaker 2: to education and right to a safe workplace and how

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Speaker 2: we balance that in our education systems because we are

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Speaker 2: hearing as well from teachers this sense of it's part

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Speaker 2: of a job to kind of manage this stuff, which

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sure that it should be. And

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Speaker 2: that's kind of where we're heading to start thinking about

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Speaker 2: how can we get the balance right of everyone. And

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Speaker 2: you know, if teachers are feeling unsafe, of course, give

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Speaker 2: the feeling unsafe, they're seeing this stuff, you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: if they're they're not necessarily involved in it, but they're

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Speaker 2: seeing these kinds of tensions and issues. So you know,

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Speaker 2: a safe workplace for teachers is a safe learning space

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Speaker 2: for students and that's really important.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. So is it up to the department, now, the

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Speaker 1: education department, to look at this and come up with

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Speaker 1: some straight I mean, we don't want to see security

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Speaker 1: guards in schools. I would have thought that's no.

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know, I mentioned in the paper

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Speaker 2: some of the things that have happened in the US

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Speaker 2: have actually which we're intended to make you know, example,

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Speaker 2: security guards, metal detectives, et cetera, actually make the people

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Speaker 2: in those environments feel less safe. You know, if you're

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Speaker 2: surrounded by that kind of thing, obviously it gives a

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Speaker 2: you know, climate that feels threatening and dangerous. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: we do need to think differently, and I think I

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Speaker 2: think there is some work to do in terms of

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Speaker 2: you know, reforms and thinking about what we expect as

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Speaker 2: a safe environment. How we how we find a minimum expectation.

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Speaker 2: You know, we had I don't think we could do

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Speaker 2: in the paper, but in another piece of work we

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Speaker 2: did we shared a quote where a teacher said, you know,

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Speaker 2: you see the signs in supermarkets saying if you don't

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Speaker 2: treat us with respect, then you won't be served. But

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Speaker 2: in schools we don't have that. You know, we don't

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Speaker 2: have that kind of baseline expectation. Quite often. Well that's

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Speaker 2: not fair. We school do try absolutely better. Again, it

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Speaker 2: becomes about you know, difficult to it's difficult to exclude

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Speaker 2: or to you know, because you're causing damage to your

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Speaker 2: child's life if you are making those kinds of choices.

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Speaker 2: So you know, they're trying really hard, and we need

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Speaker 2: to have a conversation about where that balance should be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you think about that sign and in a supermarket,

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Speaker 1: that's where adults will go, and they need to be

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Speaker 1: reminded of that which they shouldn't be. You know, that

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Speaker 1: should be an adult thing. You act like an adult,

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Speaker 1: But in a school where there's kids, you almost do

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Speaker 1: need that sign to remind them that you need to

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Speaker 1: be more grown up in your attitudes because this is

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Speaker 1: what the world will expect of you once you're not here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and most schools would have you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: codes of conduct and expectations around behavior, et cetera. But

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Speaker 2: it's about what happens when you know. What are the

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Speaker 2: consequences or the responses or the shared responsibilities for ensuring

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Speaker 2: that they are upheld and what do we do you

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Speaker 2: know when they're when they're not working?

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Speaker 1: Did you did you look at a breakdown between public

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Speaker 1: and private schools? Was there a difference? No?

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Speaker 2: We didn't. Okay, No, we weren't able to do that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that would be interesting. I just I suspect that

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Speaker 1: might be different. Maybe not, But I don't know what

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Speaker 1: your gut feeling would be. But I suppose you know

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Speaker 1: the research.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I look definitely. But I think I think there's

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Speaker 2: definitely issues you know, of a similar nature in all

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Speaker 2: schools at the moment, whether it's you know, there might

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Speaker 2: be slight differences in the types of the types of

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Speaker 2: safety issues that things like teachers feeling teachers feeling observed

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Speaker 2: all the time and surveiled by you know, and kind

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Speaker 2: of the instances of teachers saying, you know, the parents

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Speaker 2: told me they're recording me, and parents you know, saying

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Speaker 2: that they're going to you know, tarnish my reputation on

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Speaker 2: social media. But those kind of things, you know, maybe

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Speaker 2: are differently prolific in different environments. But definitely, you know,

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Speaker 2: there are these kinds of instances of you know, threat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, and g isn't technology a big factor in

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Speaker 1: all of this these days? You bring up social media

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Speaker 1: and a lot of bullying and unwonted behavior obviously occurs

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Speaker 1: there in these sorts of situations. So there's probably another

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Speaker 1: topic for another day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right, there's a lot of complex

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Speaker 2: factors going on there that Yeah, as I said, you know,

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Speaker 2: our conclusion in the work that we've done is not

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Speaker 2: any basically that it's a very complex, challenging issue, but

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Speaker 2: that we need to talk about it. It's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's been kind of like a touched on the edges

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Speaker 2: and relegated to the too hard basket a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But you know, our kids are at risk. Absolutely, that's

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Speaker 2: owned our future communities are risks. We don't think about

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Speaker 2: ways to improve how our schools are working.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Fiona, thank you for your time this morning.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for the opportunity, doctor Fiona longmyor who has senior

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Speaker 1: lecture educational leadership monash Uni. If you're a teacher or

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Speaker 1: have someone in the family who is, let us know

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Speaker 1: how do you feel about that? This report saying teachers

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Speaker 1: feel so unsafe they're looking to leave the profession they've

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Speaker 1: studied four obviously aspired to, wanted to do and wanted

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Speaker 1: to excel at. But now the world being what it is,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's different, isn't it. Teachers would never have

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Speaker 1: said this when you and I were at school fifty

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Speaker 1: odd years ago, in my case, never would have been

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Speaker 1: an issue. But these days about a quarter of them

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Speaker 1: one to leave because they feel unsafe and just some

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Speaker 1: terrible examples in this report of teachers saying what's happened

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Speaker 1: to them in schools. As I read some out earlier,

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Speaker 1: unbelievable eight double two to three double double ow is

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Speaker 1: my number. The vice president of the Australian Education Union

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Speaker 1: here in essay is Kendall Proud and she joins me. Now, Kendall, good.

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Speaker 3: Morning, good morning, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: It is a different world, isn't it. And you'd be

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Speaker 1: as concerned as anyone. Twenty five quarter of teachers in

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Speaker 1: this survey saying they feel unsafe, most of them want

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Speaker 1: to leave the profession.

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Speaker 3: Is quite a large but it's representative of the kinds

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Speaker 3: of the nature of this issue. We're hearing from members

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Speaker 3: daily about how they feel unsafe and unsupported and really

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Speaker 3: they want to be teachers, they want to be educators,

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Speaker 3: they want to be in school.

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Speaker 2: This is something that.

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Speaker 3: They're absolutely passionate about. They're just looking for the right

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Speaker 3: resources and support to make that a safe reality.

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Speaker 1: What in your view is that, because as I said

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Speaker 1: to Fiona, I don't think anyone wants to see security

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Speaker 1: guards in school standing around to make sure teachers or

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Speaker 1: kids for that matter, are safe. So what do we

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Speaker 1: need to do?

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Speaker 3: Well, Like doctor Fiona said, it's a very complicated and

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Speaker 3: complex issue. And there isn't a silver bullet answer to this,

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Speaker 3: but it is going to take government, community, educators, everybody

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Speaker 3: working together to try and unpick some of these complexities

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Speaker 3: and find solutions that are going to help everybody. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the first one, in my opinion, is the need for

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Speaker 3: public schools to be fully funded. Teachers are making decisions

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Speaker 3: about what they can and can't do based on the

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Speaker 3: resourcing that they have, and they're not able to give

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Speaker 3: students everything they need with the current levels of resourcing.

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Speaker 1: So you need, you mean, more teaching staff on hand, Well.

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Speaker 3: We'd love to see class size is reduced and more

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Speaker 3: education support staff in school. Kids these days are very

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Speaker 3: reliant on adults when they enter school. They need a

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Speaker 3: lot of love and care and support while they're being educated,

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Speaker 3: and increasing staff would be a step in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: What are class sizes these days? Back in my day,

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Speaker 1: and I'm talking in the seventies, in primary and also

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Speaker 1: high school, by the end of the seventies, we had

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Speaker 1: around thirty two to thirty three kids per class. What

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Speaker 1: is it these days?

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Speaker 3: The average maximum class size is around thirty still, so

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Speaker 3: things haven't changed too much.

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Speaker 1: Well, we only had one teacher per class back then,

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Speaker 1: why does it need to be more well?

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Speaker 3: Because of all the reasons that doctor Fiona has just

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Speaker 3: pointed to, children are different to what they were fifty

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Speaker 3: years ago.

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Speaker 2: They're battling so many.

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Speaker 3: Different issues within their communities, their families are experiencing economic hardships,

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Speaker 3: or there's a lot more prevalence of mental health issues.

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Speaker 3: Social media plays a really big part in.

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Speaker 2: This place as well.

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Speaker 3: Kids are just growing up in a very different and

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Speaker 3: challenging environment.

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Speaker 1: They are, aren't they. There's no doubt about that. I

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Speaker 1: was interested in her analogy with the shopping center sign.

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Speaker 1: You know, bad behavior won't be tolerated here. We say

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Speaker 1: that to adults. Do we need to say that to kids?

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Speaker 3: I think we do. We do need to stay to kids,

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Speaker 3: and educators are saying it to kids, but they need

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Speaker 3: the support to make sure that the consequences are adequate

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Speaker 3: and logical. They need to make sure that the supports

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Speaker 3: are there to help kids the behaviors.

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Speaker 1: And parents have got a big role to play here

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Speaker 1: then maybe at social media as well, but parents' attitudes

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Speaker 1: towards teachers have certainly changed.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, things always work better when schools, the educators, the

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Speaker 3: leadership and the family are all working collaboratively, but there

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Speaker 3: are so many other things that are barriers to making

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Speaker 3: it work. Members report processes to accessing support for students

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Speaker 3: are overwhelming and there's hours and hours of administravia involved,

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Speaker 3: and even then the wait times for getting help and

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Speaker 3: support are still excessive and this only exacerbates and frustrates family.

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Speaker 1: Do you have reports, Kendall, as a union, do you

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Speaker 1: get reports from schools from teachers from union members? I

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Speaker 1: imagine telling you there's been an assaulta a parent has

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Speaker 1: come in perhaps or a child in a school has

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Speaker 1: assaulted teacher. And if you do it, how often does

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Speaker 1: that happen? Here in South Australia.

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Speaker 3: We do get reports like that. I couldn't tell you

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Speaker 3: a number, but it is increasing and we really want

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Speaker 3: to make sure that they're educators in our schools are

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Speaker 3: properly supported.

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Speaker 1: We certainly don't want them leaving, absolutely after doing the training,

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Speaker 1: and you know this is their goal, their aspiration to

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Speaker 1: become a teacher, to help kids develop and grow, and

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Speaker 1: then to be forced out of the profession for reasons

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Speaker 1: like this. That's not good enough, obviously, absolutely, and.

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Speaker 3: This affects all levels of educators. It's not just teachers.

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Speaker 2: Support staff are.

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Speaker 3: Feeling this, school leaders are feeling this. It's felt across

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Speaker 3: the board. So we need to see some more resourcing

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Speaker 3: put into schools so that the children can get the

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Speaker 3: support they need. We can wrap around those families and

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Speaker 3: really help them to be the very best they can

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Speaker 3: be for our future communities.

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Speaker 1: All right, Kendall, appreciate your time.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Kendall Proud, Vice President Australian Education Union here in essay