Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am.
Speaker 1: When Malcolm Turnbull was Prime Minister, he made a call
Speaker 1: that made the then President of the United States very
Speaker 1: very angry. Donald Trump called it the worst call he'd
Speaker 1: had all day, a killer, crazy and disgusting. But Turnbull
Speaker 1: argues that making Trump mad and saying things he didn't
Speaker 1: want to hear is the only way to deal with him. Now,
Speaker 1: as Australia faces the prospect of a second Trump term,
Speaker 1: Turnbull says our Prime Minister's willingness to face off with
Speaker 1: the president could make the difference on everything from the
Speaker 1: economy to our security. Today. Former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull
Speaker 1: on how he forged a relationship with Donald Trump and
Speaker 1: what Anthony Albanezi needs to know if Trump wins again.
Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, October twenty two, So Malcolm, as we speak,
Speaker 1: there are just fifteen days to the US election. There
Speaker 1: is every chance that we will see a returning President Trump.
Speaker 1: When he came to power the first time, so in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, you were the Prime minister. Tell me about
Speaker 1: your very first conversation with him.
Speaker 2: Well, the first substantive conversation I had with him was
Speaker 2: a blazing raw. And that was shortly after he'd been
Speaker 2: inaugurated in January twenty seventeen, and he was in a
Speaker 2: towering rage because well, I mean, the issue was the
Speaker 2: deal I'd done with Barack Obama to resettle in the
Speaker 2: United States a number of people who had been detained.
Speaker 3: On Manas Island and Nauru.
Speaker 2: We'd had every indication that that deal was going to
Speaker 2: continue to be honored. But then shortly before the call,
Speaker 2: Mike Pence rang truly Bishop and General Flynn rang Justin Bassey,
Speaker 2: who was my National security advisor in my office, and
Speaker 2: said the deals off. Prime Minister shouldn't race it with
Speaker 2: the President. He's not going to do it. It's over.
Speaker 3: Anyway.
Speaker 2: I did raise it and I insisted that the United
Speaker 2: States should honor it, and Trump was furious about it
Speaker 2: and raged and raved. Much of the transcript is in
Speaker 2: the public domain. It was leaked at some point by
Speaker 2: someone in the White House, I assumed to the Washington Post.
Speaker 4: We had one instance in Australia. Have a lot of
Speaker 4: respect for Australia. I love Australia as a country, but
Speaker 4: we had a problem where.
Speaker 2: It was one of those furious conversations that started off
Speaker 2: with noway, Jose and ended up with yes, but I
Speaker 2: hate you. He actually said it was the worst call
Speaker 2: he'd had all day.
Speaker 4: More than that, And I said, why why are we
Speaker 4: doing this? What's the purpose? So we'll see what happens.
Speaker 4: But you know, a previous administration does something, you have
Speaker 4: to respect that. But you can also say, why are
Speaker 4: we doing this? That's why we're in the James.
Speaker 2: My proposition was, we have a deal. You're like you know,
Speaker 2: you're like a new CEO. You take over the company.
Speaker 3: You think your.
Speaker 2: Predecessor has done some dud deals. You can complain about them,
Speaker 2: but you've got on of them. And so my proposition
Speaker 2: simply was America's words should be its bond, simple as that.
Speaker 1: As he became angrier on that call, did you at
Speaker 1: any point doubt that that was the right approach?
Speaker 3: No, I never had any doubt it was the right approach.
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure that I wasn't sure that we we'd
Speaker 2: get to a yes, because he was pretty pissed off,
Speaker 2: to say the least. But the reality is if you
Speaker 2: give in to bullies, you just get more bullying.
Speaker 1: And so this negotiation over the resettling of asylum seekers
Speaker 1: to the US. That is not the only time that
Speaker 1: you dealt with Trump. Can you tell me a bit
Speaker 1: more about what you've seen up close in person with
Speaker 1: him that you think that the public or the media
Speaker 1: miss when it comes to the way that he thinks
Speaker 1: about power.
Speaker 2: Well, with Trump, what you see is what you get,
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, he's a guy that says the
Speaker 2: quiet bits out loud. The problem is that most people
Speaker 2: are scared of him, right, you know. The advice from
Speaker 2: you know, all of the want to be Trump whisperers,
Speaker 2: most of them have no real insight or experience at
Speaker 2: all about it is oh, you know, flattering talk about golf.
Speaker 2: Suck up to him, you know, all this stuff, and
Speaker 2: that way you won't get what you want. I mean,
Speaker 2: you'll get what he wants. Now, the critical thing is
Speaker 2: to be prepared to stand up to him, but also
Speaker 2: to recognize that he can be intelligently transactional. The other
Speaker 2: big issue he had, the only other contentious issue we
Speaker 2: had during my time was when Trump was seeking to
Speaker 2: impose very big tariffs twenty five percent tariffs on steel
Speaker 2: imports and ten percent tariffs on aluminium imports. Now Australia
Speaker 2: does export steel and aluminium to the United States, and
Speaker 2: I was very concerned that those tariffs.
Speaker 3: Not apply to US. Now there, of course, I didn't.
Speaker 2: Have the ability to say, well, I've got a done deal,
Speaker 2: you've got to stick to it.
Speaker 3: I had to persuade him.
Speaker 2: Now, the thing about Trump is the only decision maker
Speaker 2: in the Trump White House was Donald Trump. So you know,
Speaker 2: ambassadors and officials and advisors are much less relevant than
Speaker 2: they are in a more conventional administration. You know, in
Speaker 2: the case of the tariffs, Trump's advisors were all against
Speaker 2: doing the deal that I wanted to do it with him,
Speaker 2: But I managed to persuade him that it was in
Speaker 2: his interest not to impose those tariffs on Australia. And
Speaker 2: very intelligent, rational, transactional discussion. I mean, that was certainly
Speaker 2: wasn't you know, making a big issue out of one
Speaker 2: hundred years of matship and you know, all of the
Speaker 2: sentimental stuff that people always talk about on public occasions.
Speaker 2: It was very much a business discussion about numbers and economics,
Speaker 2: and he was intelligently transactional, would be the best way
Speaker 2: I could describe it.
Speaker 1: It seems like he was also aware that you had
Speaker 1: at one point represented someone who he considered a friend,
Speaker 1: Kerry Packer. Do you think that that had anything to
Speaker 1: do with it.
Speaker 2: Well, I'd never dealt with him, and he'd never dealt
Speaker 2: with me, but he he knew a bit about me
Speaker 2: by reputation, or so he said. In fact, every time
Speaker 2: I met him, pretty much he said to somebody who
Speaker 2: was there, you know, Malcolm's the best lawyer in the world.
Speaker 2: He kept my friend Kerry Packer out of jail. Became
Speaker 2: a bit of a stink actually, to be honest, like
Speaker 2: he is a performer. And I would say, well, very kind, Donald,
Speaker 2: but you know Kerry was innocent, to which he would say,
Speaker 2: oh no, he was.
Speaker 3: He was so guilty he deserved to go to jail forever.
Speaker 5: You know, I'm sure he didn't believe that I thought,
Speaker 5: but it was just it became a routine. But I think,
Speaker 5: you know, I think I had a reputation for being
Speaker 5: a tough negotiator, good lawyer.
Speaker 3: That none of that hurts.
Speaker 1: And when you say, though, that you know Trump was
Speaker 1: willing to do deals that were in his interest, I mean,
Speaker 1: how key is that in dealing with troubal Totally?
Speaker 2: I mean, if you wanted to get a deal done
Speaker 2: with Trump. You've got to persuade him that it's in
Speaker 2: his interest to do the deal. I mean, this is
Speaker 2: not a sentimental guy, right. What's his slogan, America First,
Speaker 2: and that means Donald Trump first.
Speaker 1: Coming up after the break? What Donald Trump first means
Speaker 1: for Australia's security. So, Malcolm, how do you think a
Speaker 1: second Trump presidency would differ from the first.
Speaker 2: Well, he'll be much better organized, right, he didn't expect
Speaker 2: to win last time. He's now got a lot of
Speaker 2: people who want to execute a very radical agenda. He
Speaker 2: will still be the chaotic, erratic personality is I mean,
Speaker 2: you've only got to listen to one of his speeches
Speaker 2: to see what he's like. But the fact is he
Speaker 2: will hit the ground running and he will believe that
Speaker 2: he can walk on water. If he wins, and you
Speaker 2: know many people think he will, it will be one
Speaker 2: of the biggest political comebacks ever. I think globally, he
Speaker 2: wants to impose a big tariff. Started off at ten
Speaker 2: days talking about it. Twenty percent tariff on all imports
Speaker 2: into the United States. That is going to put a
Speaker 2: break on trade, and even higher tariff, sixty percent tariff
Speaker 2: on all imports from China in terms of our region
Speaker 2: and China Taiwan, for example. Whereas Biden has said he
Speaker 2: would definitely know America would defend Taiwan, Trump has not
Speaker 2: said anything of the sort. In fact, he's questioned why
Speaker 2: America would Should the US help defend Taiwan if it
Speaker 2: means going to war with China.
Speaker 6: Well, I don't want to say it because if I'm
Speaker 6: in the position of president, I don't want to say
Speaker 6: what I'm thinking. You know, I just if I answer
Speaker 6: that question, it will put me in a very bad
Speaker 6: negotiating position.
Speaker 2: With that being said, there's a lot of mixed messages there,
Speaker 2: you know, But the big message for us is that
Speaker 2: we have to The only people we can really count
Speaker 2: on to defend Australia are ourselves. You know, we had
Speaker 2: a program to build submarines in Australia, ourselves. Morrison canceled
Speaker 2: that in favor of the Orcus plan. Albanesi has gone
Speaker 2: along with that. It now looks more likely than not
Speaker 2: that we'll never get any submarines at all, certainly won't
Speaker 2: get any American submarines. Yet we're providing the Americans for
Speaker 2: the big submarine base.
Speaker 3: Maybe is that a good thing. I guess it's a
Speaker 3: good thing. But what that.
Speaker 2: Means is critical decisions about Australia's defense and not being
Speaker 2: taken in Canberra.
Speaker 3: They're being taken in Washington, you know.
Speaker 2: And we've effectively had a over the Morrison and Albanesi governments,
Speaker 2: a very significant diminution in our sovereignty and autonomy right
Speaker 2: at a time when we need it most.
Speaker 1: What do you suggest can be done then, though, Because
Speaker 1: I mean maybe UCAST is a bad deal, but it
Speaker 1: is a done deal, so you know, we're stuck with it.
Speaker 2: So when you say Lance was a done deal too, right, But.
Speaker 1: When you say that we need to put ourselves first,
Speaker 1: Australia needs to itself first, what does that actually mean?
Speaker 2: Well, I think I think for a start, I think
Speaker 2: we're Well, what it means is we've got to be
Speaker 2: able to have the capabilities to defend Australia which are
Speaker 2: genuinely sovereign. That is to say, they can be sustained,
Speaker 2: maintained and directed by Australia.
Speaker 3: That's that That's what we need.
Speaker 2: And now we find out much more about what's going
Speaker 2: on with aucas out of releases in Washington, when we
Speaker 2: ever do from what's said in Canada.
Speaker 3: You know, we're just you know.
Speaker 2: Part of the problem, of course, is that it's a
Speaker 2: coalition policy the Labor Party adopted. So when both sides
Speaker 2: of politics agree on something, then who's holding them to account?
Speaker 1: And what about Donald Trump's influence on Australian political life,
Speaker 1: I mean, in particular, Opposition leader Peter Dutton has been
Speaker 1: accused of of weaponizing division in a similar way to Trump,
Speaker 1: particularly when it comes to something like immigration policy. So
Speaker 1: do you see shades of Trump's political rhetoric in your
Speaker 1: former party?
Speaker 2: Well, look, people have been weaponizing immigration issues in Australian
Speaker 2: politics for well over one hundred years. I don't think
Speaker 2: Peter Dutton's stumbled on something new. But their trump populist
Speaker 2: style has got a lot of imitators around the world.
Speaker 2: You know, you see them in Europe, you see them,
Speaker 2: you know Bolsonaro in Brazil. And of course Trump is
Speaker 2: operating nowadays in a right way media ecosystem, of which
Speaker 2: the Murdoch media is probably the largest single part, not
Speaker 2: the only part, but Fox News, Sky News and Australia
Speaker 2: Murdoch Tabloid's very very similar playbook, and.
Speaker 3: So Trumpy tactics and rhetoric.
Speaker 2: And so forth are being copied right around the world,
Speaker 2: and they admire him because he's able to get away
Speaker 2: with it.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you have dealt with Trump successfully as
Speaker 1: Prime Minister. As you say, it's all about the personal relationship,
Speaker 1: the one on one. Would you be up for being ambassador?
Speaker 3: No, I'm very happy out of the public sector.
Speaker 2: Look, the ambassador's role is important, right, and Ja did
Speaker 2: a good job, and Arthur Sinadinas did a good job,
Speaker 2: and Kevin's doing a great job. But with Trump in particular,
Speaker 2: the only relationship that matters is going to be between
Speaker 2: the Australian Prime Minister and the American pressor So our
Speaker 2: Prime Minister has got to have the confidence and the
Speaker 2: character and the courage to deal with Trump because all
Speaker 2: Trump will respect is strength and conviction.
Speaker 1: Malcolm, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Malcolm Turnbull's essay Second Coming, How to Deal with Trump,
Speaker 1: is out now in Australian Foreign Affairs. Also in the
Speaker 1: news today, King Charles and Queen Camilla have received a
Speaker 1: ceremonial welcome on their first visit to Canberra. After the
Speaker 1: King's speech in the Great Hall yesterday, Senator Lydia Thorpe
Speaker 1: called out, you are not our king, you are not sovereign,
Speaker 1: before being escorted away. Earlier, Senator Thorpe turned her back
Speaker 1: as God Save the King was played. And the Federal
Speaker 1: Court has ruled that hundreds of former Quantus workers who
Speaker 1: were illegally sacked in twenty twenty will receive financial compensation
Speaker 1: from the airline. Last year, Quantus was found to have
Speaker 1: broken the law when it stood down seventeen hundred ground
Speaker 1: crew members in twenty twenty. Lawyers for Quantas and the
Speaker 1: Transport Workers' Union will now attend mediation to determine the
Speaker 1: final compensation payout for workers. And if you haven't yet,
Speaker 1: you should listen to our new series. This is Alice Springs.
Speaker 1: It's hosted by my colleague Daniel James, and it's extraordinary.
Speaker 1: It's enour feed now. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.