Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, said,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. The world
Speaker 1: of crime is a murky place, but when the crooked
Speaker 1: cops joined forces with the criminals, politicians and judicial officers,
Speaker 1: things can get out of hand. That's exactly what happened
Speaker 1: in a particular shameful time in New South Wales's history.
Speaker 1: We're talking here about the seventies and eighties in Sydney,
Speaker 1: where money, drugs and violence corrupted our streets. We're going
Speaker 1: to get an extraordinary insight into this world for award
Speaker 1: winning journalist Neil Mercer. He's going to give us a
Speaker 1: definitive inside story of Nettie Smith and Roger Rogerson, which
Speaker 1: he also wrote a book about called The Kingping and
Speaker 1: the Crooked Cop. Rogerson at one stage was a respected cop.
Speaker 1: Nettie was a gangster and a rapist. But they are
Speaker 1: also partners in crime, murderers and drug traffickers. They both
Speaker 1: died in jail. Today we're going to look at their lives,
Speaker 1: the corrupt world they operated in, and the damage they caused.
Speaker 1: You're going to be shocked by this one. Neil Mercer,
Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Good to be here.
Speaker 1: Well, I have been a copoll was a cop for
Speaker 1: a long time, and obviously I knew of Roger Rogerson
Speaker 1: and Nettie Smith and all the corruption and the world
Speaker 1: that they lived in, and I thought they knew most
Speaker 1: of it. But I've been reading your book, The Kingping
Speaker 1: and the Crooked Cop, and I've got to say the
Speaker 1: depth of it is quite remarkable. They were so brazen.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for that, but yeah, you're right, they
Speaker 2: were so brazen, and you know, when I started researching it,
Speaker 2: I thought I pretty much knew Roger's story. But then
Speaker 2: I delve deeper and deeper, particularly going back into the seventies,
Speaker 2: and there was stuff that just look. I was amazed
Speaker 2: at some of the things that came out and the
Speaker 2: Roger's manipulation of the system, of his fellow cops, of judges,
Speaker 2: of courts, of all that sort of thing, and also
Speaker 2: his amazingly close relationship with Ned. I mean, you listen
Speaker 2: to some of the intercepted phone calls from say the
Speaker 2: early eighties, and it's like Ned and here in the
Speaker 2: armhold up squad together, or you know, in the cops together.
Speaker 2: It's extraordinary.
Speaker 1: They are literally partners in crime.
Speaker 2: They were, I mean, just talking about those intercepts did
Speaker 2: phone calls, I think they were nine. In eighty three,
Speaker 2: the AFP, the Federal police had taps on Ned's phone
Speaker 2: and Ned's phoning Darlinghurst Police station, where Roger is then stationed,
Speaker 2: and he's saying, oh, I've got five hundred gold coins.
Speaker 2: Can you find out if they've been nicked? And Roger says, oh, no,
Speaker 2: no problem, goes away. He calls the property office or whatever,
Speaker 2: it is, and subsequent conversation with Ned, No, there's no
Speaker 2: record of these coins being stolen, and so you know,
Speaker 2: Ned's trying to figure out how he can fence these
Speaker 2: five hundred gold coins and he's enlisting Roger's help to
Speaker 2: make sure that, you know, maybe they can't be traced
Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff. And you know, another
Speaker 2: phone call, same time, there's Ned on the phone to
Speaker 2: Roger and another detective. Do you want me to bring
Speaker 2: the ten? Do you want me to bring the ten?
Speaker 2: We can whack it up three ways, and the cops,
Speaker 2: the cops obviously going oh no, don't. Don't sort of
Speaker 2: say that over the phone mate, you know, and it
Speaker 2: doesn't need much imagination Gary to to know what Ned's
Speaker 2: talking about, bring the ten and whack it up three ways,
Speaker 2: talking about ten grand.
Speaker 1: It's always funny when you're listening to people on the
Speaker 1: phone intercepts and whether it's cops, crooks or whoever, and
Speaker 1: everyone's assuming the phone's off, so they just tend.
Speaker 2: To talk a bit quiet. I love it when they say, look,
Speaker 2: we can't talk over the phone, but blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and they go on and on and on,
Speaker 2: but I don't want to say too much over the phone,
Speaker 2: and then they do exactly that. But you know, one
Speaker 2: of the interesting things about those telephone intercepts, this is
Speaker 2: nine in eighty three. Nothing happened. Roger was not disciplined.
Speaker 2: The new South Wales police hierarchy was told about them
Speaker 2: and did well. Bugger all.
Speaker 1: That's what I found the remarkable, how brazen it is.
Speaker 1: But just breaking down first that relationship between Roger and Ned.
Speaker 1: Then I'm talking here in the general sense. I was
Speaker 1: taught when I came into policing, and it was certainly
Speaker 1: tightened the relationship between detectives and informats. And when I
Speaker 1: was a young cop, it was nothing. Whether you're doing
Speaker 1: I'm going to go see an informant at the pub
Speaker 1: and you'd go out with an older detective and you
Speaker 1: meet some colorful character and you'd sit there and have
Speaker 1: a couple of beers and information. It was so loose,
Speaker 1: It really was loose. It was virtually you put in
Speaker 1: your duty book seeing an informant. You didn't have to
Speaker 1: put the name, you didn't have to say what it
Speaker 1: was about. And that was the level of accountability. Thankfully,
Speaker 1: that has changed to the point where if you have
Speaker 1: any communication with a registered source, you need to document
Speaker 1: the full nature of the conversation, the person, the time,
Speaker 1: the location, that type of thing. We needed that didn't
Speaker 1: we It was obvious.
Speaker 2: Most certainly needed that. And I think it's probably that
Speaker 2: tightening up is probably due in part to the relationship
Speaker 2: between Roger and NED, because you know, it's exactly that
Speaker 2: he would disappear from Roger would disappear from the armed
Speaker 2: hold up squad. Nobody knew where he was. He was
Speaker 2: off seeing an informant. Well, it could have been anybody.
Speaker 2: It was off a Ned. There were lunches, there were
Speaker 2: more than a few beers, and he I guess his
Speaker 2: superiors thought that was all okay because that's the way
Speaker 2: it had always been done. But this relationship with Ned
Speaker 2: became much closer and closer and closer, until you know,
Speaker 2: they I wouldn't say they were great friends, but they
Speaker 2: were close, and it was you scratch my back, I'll
Speaker 2: scratch you all back, and money changed hands. And you
Speaker 2: know there was no supervision of that police officer informant relationship.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, he got away with whatever he
Speaker 2: wanted to. Well, they got away with murder got away
Speaker 2: with a lot.
Speaker 1: The other thing about the relationships with informants, and this
Speaker 1: is something that was drummed in the me and I
Speaker 1: hopefully pass that on to others, that the flow of
Speaker 1: information is one way, and it's difficult because I've had
Speaker 1: a lot of informants in my career and they can
Speaker 1: be charismatic people, and you've really got to hold tight
Speaker 1: on your moral compass and make sure the exchange of
Speaker 1: information goes one way. They give you information, you're not
Speaker 1: feeding them information. But it looks like all those barriers
Speaker 1: were blurred in the relationship between Ned and Roger.
Speaker 2: I think that's right. I mean, and I understand that
Speaker 2: that problem. I understand why cops would have that difficult thing,
Speaker 2: because the informant wants something in return. You know, they're
Speaker 2: not doing it for altruistic reasons. They want maybe you know,
Speaker 2: a financial reward or you know this better than me.
Speaker 2: But Roger, well, he's always he always maintained he's no
Speaker 2: longer with us, obviously, but he always maintained that Ned
Speaker 2: was his informant, one of his best informants. But it's
Speaker 2: clear that money was changing hands. And just as I said,
Speaker 2: with the five hundred gold coins. You know, I think
Speaker 2: Ned's words were, I've got something we can make an
Speaker 2: earn on. And I mean, you know that's we're pretty blatant,
Speaker 2: make an urn on. What does that mean? Well, make
Speaker 2: a quid five hundred gold coins. Let's see if we
Speaker 2: can get rid of them somewhere.
Speaker 1: And I think it was even there was a passage
Speaker 1: in there divvy it up three ways or whatever.
Speaker 2: You know, and that I think that was a separate thing.
Speaker 2: That money was to be paid by Ned to Roger
Speaker 2: and another detective on behalf of another reasonably minor criminal,
Speaker 2: Harvey Jones, And yeah, shall I bring the ten we
Speaker 2: can and whack it up three ways? And there are
Speaker 2: other conversations where they'd go they'd been out for drinks
Speaker 2: the night before, and you're alluding to this where you know,
Speaker 2: you do take informance to the pub and you do
Speaker 2: have a couple of beers. But they were there were
Speaker 2: some intercepted phone calls where Ned's saying, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: I drank you under the table last night. Mate, Oh no, no,
Speaker 2: I did you like a dinner? And Ned says, I'll
Speaker 2: give that, give you that four hundred that I borrowed
Speaker 2: off you to the detective and the detective and then
Speaker 2: they say, yeah, yeah, I'll you know, no rush, you
Speaker 2: can bring the four hundred whenever. And Ned says something
Speaker 2: like it makes a bit of a change, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: You know, you're usually taking it off me now, I
Speaker 2: mean it is, so you know, they're usually taking money
Speaker 2: off Ned or protecting him for whatever he'd done or
Speaker 2: was accused of doing. It was latent, and I guess
Speaker 2: it wasn't just Roger, but I think Roger was the
Speaker 2: epitome of the post. Here was the poster boy, and
Speaker 2: you know, you look at him and he was at
Speaker 2: one stage such a good detective in homicide or the
Speaker 2: fore Runner homicide and then in the armhold up squad.
Speaker 2: But he he's seriously, seriously, as we all now know,
Speaker 2: ran very much off the rails.
Speaker 1: I suppose when we're talking about those type of conversations
Speaker 1: that were captured on listening devices or telephone intercepts, it's
Speaker 1: not with the benefit of hindsight we're putting the puzzles together.
Speaker 1: It's fairly obvious what was going on, but there didn't
Speaker 1: seem to be mappetite for it. Before we really break
Speaker 1: down the rise the crimes and the fall of both
Speaker 1: Roger and Neddie. Let's find out a little bit about you. So, Neil,
Speaker 1: I know you've been around a long time, like I have.
Speaker 2: Been around, I guess. Look, I started my journalistic career
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two, which makes me officially a dinosaur.
Speaker 2: But I didn't really start reporting on crime until around
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one, and that my first experience was the
Speaker 2: shooting of Warren land Francie. Okay, prior to that, i'd
Speaker 2: done I worked in the old Parliament House in Cambridge.
Speaker 2: I'd covered the Sydney City Council, so I hadn't done
Speaker 2: any crime reporting. And I fell into it pretty much accidentally,
Speaker 2: not by design, And I went round when Land Franchie
Speaker 2: was shot in nineteen eighty one by Roger in the
Speaker 2: Lane Way. A week or so later, I went round
Speaker 2: to see Warren lan Franchi's dad, Keith, and you deviewed him.
Speaker 2: And that was the first time I'd ever done a
Speaker 2: crime story. Really.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well you jumped into the DP.
Speaker 2: As I later discovered, I'd got in it, as you say,
Speaker 2: at the deep end, because a year or so after that,
Speaker 2: I interviewed Roger for the very first time. That was
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, and then I started interviewing people around
Speaker 2: King's Cross and getting to know you know in later
Speaker 2: years Abe Saffron and so yeah, I came in completely
Speaker 2: unknowing at a level that I just did not understand
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty one eighty two, I had no idea
Speaker 2: what I was getting into.
Speaker 1: Well, it comes out in the book that yeah, you
Speaker 1: understood that environment. And I have an idea of the
Speaker 1: environment having been a police officer, and yeah, you get
Speaker 1: what it was about, and little nuances and just the
Speaker 1: way things work. Let's have you described Roger Rogerson for us?
Speaker 1: How would you describe him as a person.
Speaker 2: When I the very first day I met Roger, it
Speaker 2: was just up from Darlinghurst Police Station and it was
Speaker 2: the first interview he'd done on the record since he
Speaker 2: shot Land Franchi the year before. We went to a
Speaker 2: coffee shop in Oxford Street, just near Taylor Square and
Speaker 2: Sydney and all I remember, or the thing I remember
Speaker 2: the most, is he had these piercing blue eyes and
Speaker 2: I'm scribbling notes, so I'm looking down a lot, but
Speaker 2: every time I looked up, he was just staring at
Speaker 2: me and intently. That's what I remember about Roger. I
Speaker 2: wrote the story for the Herald. He phoned me the
Speaker 2: next day. He liked it because I'd been fair. He said,
Speaker 2: you've given me a fair go. If there's anything I
Speaker 2: can ever do to help, give me a call. He
Speaker 2: was good company. He enjoyed a beer. He had a
Speaker 2: terrific memory. He knew so many crooks and other people.
Speaker 2: He could be charming. He'd walk little old ladies across
Speaker 2: the road. He'd help out neighbors cleaning their gutters. I mean,
Speaker 2: he's this fascinating personality because there's all the good things
Speaker 2: he did. But at the same time, we know he
Speaker 2: had that cold, calculating, manipulative streak. I didn't really see
Speaker 2: a lot of that, but it became evident in later
Speaker 2: years when he was charged with, say, the attempted murder
Speaker 2: of Michael Drury. But yeah, Roger was If you met
Speaker 2: him in the pub, he'd be terrific company. If you
Speaker 2: introduced him to friends, he'd be hello, how are you going,
Speaker 2: good to meet you? What do you do? He'd be
Speaker 2: interested in people. He wasn't a enigma. I think, in
Speaker 2: a lot.
Speaker 1: Of ways, certainly a complex character because I know a
Speaker 1: lot of people work with a lot of people that
Speaker 1: worked with Roger, and there's a consistency that comes through that.
Speaker 1: He was always charming, He was charismatic, he was a
Speaker 1: big personality. He was fun to be with. But looking
Speaker 1: at what we know about Roger now, it's almost like
Speaker 1: you're looking at that. Is that just part of his
Speaker 1: facade to manipulate people and control people?
Speaker 2: Look, it could be. It's hard to know. I guess
Speaker 2: you'd have to be a psychiatrist or a psychologist to
Speaker 2: start figuring that out. And some people say, oh, he
Speaker 2: was a side a path or a sociopath. That's that's
Speaker 2: not my bag. But you look, I think people went
Speaker 2: into court to give character evidence for him. He did
Speaker 2: things for neighbors and so on without being asked whether
Speaker 2: it's part of a facade, but that he was doing
Speaker 2: those things long before he gets into trouble. You know,
Speaker 2: I've struggled to work him out. What I did find
Speaker 2: is that the more I looked, the more it seemed
Speaker 2: to be he had this ability to manipulate people. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I've asked myself was I manipulated?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: As a reporter, I don't think so. I always knew
Speaker 2: who Roger was because I came in at that level
Speaker 2: of the land Franchi shooting. When the land Franchi family said,
Speaker 2: you know, Roger's murdered him, Keith said, he's murdered my son.
Speaker 2: So I was never under any illusions about Roger. But yeah,
Speaker 2: he whether it was part of the facade. Look, I
Speaker 2: don't know that we'll ever know. He was, as you say,
Speaker 2: a born leader, courageous, all that stuff, and I think
Speaker 2: in the end, Gary, I think it was really ego
Speaker 2: and power that drove him. I'm not even sure he
Speaker 2: was driven by money. I think he was driven by
Speaker 2: the fact that I know Lenny McPherson. I've got him
Speaker 2: as an informant. I've got this informant I know everybody
Speaker 2: in the.
Speaker 1: Underworld, classic Prince of the City.
Speaker 2: He's the Prince of the city, that's right. And his superiors,
Speaker 2: some of whom he's worked with closely as a junior.
Speaker 2: By now, a lot of them are way up high
Speaker 2: in the CIP and he's a golden boy and they
Speaker 2: overlook I'm assuming a lot of his foibles. But yeah,
Speaker 2: Prince of the City he was.
Speaker 1: It's remarkable the influence he had as a detective sergeant.
Speaker 1: My career started just as his career finished. But I
Speaker 1: was in the toll up squad probably five years after
Speaker 1: he finished. I remember being in the witness box and
Speaker 1: this is the line of questioning. I'm a young, fresh
Speaker 1: faced detective in the witness box. So you're in the
Speaker 1: stick ups. A. Yes, so you load people, you verbal people,
Speaker 1: you bash people, of which I say, you're the tough guys,
Speaker 1: aren't you. And Roger Rogerson's your hero, isn't he. I'n't
Speaker 1: been asked questions about Roger Rogerson in the witness box
Speaker 1: about the matter that's got nothing to do with him,
Speaker 1: five years after he's left. And that's that power, that
Speaker 1: informal power that he had, the influence.
Speaker 2: He did, He certainly had influence way beyond his rank
Speaker 2: of detective sergeant. I mean, he's a senior investigator, but
Speaker 2: you know, he had influence with the head of the CIB,
Speaker 2: you know, up to assistant commissioners, if not commissioner level,
Speaker 2: because they all knew him and they knew he was
Speaker 2: very effective. Yeah. I mean, Roger, I guess, was the
Speaker 2: poster boy, as you said, for that hard nosed front
Speaker 2: line detective in the armed hold up Squad in the
Speaker 2: seventies and eighties. Having said that, I think we do
Speaker 2: need to remember, and I'm not diminishing his faults or
Speaker 2: what he did wrong. The sixties and seventies in particular,
Speaker 2: there were a lot of armed robberies. There were a
Speaker 2: lot of very bad men or desperate men running around
Speaker 2: with shotguns, sticking those guns in the faces of young
Speaker 2: bank tellers and sometimes shooting them. And the modus operandi,
Speaker 2: it seems to me, looking back now of the armed
Speaker 2: hold up Squad was to meet force with force, and
Speaker 2: that's evident in a couple of the shootings that Roger
Speaker 2: was part of. You know, the suspected armed robbers were
Speaker 2: surrounded with overwhelming force.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you mentioned that, Neil, because I try
Speaker 1: to explain it to people now because it's almost like
Speaker 1: a time gone by. But when I was a young
Speaker 1: detective in the eighties, armed hold ups were particularly violent.
Speaker 1: They were frequent. It was a day wouldn't go by
Speaker 1: where a bank wasn't robbed or an armor guard van hit,
Speaker 1: and people would come in with shotguns, and people would
Speaker 1: let those shotguns off and shoot innocent people. And the
Speaker 1: trauma that was passed on to the people that witnessed.
Speaker 1: It was extreme. It was force meeting force in the
Speaker 1: armholed up squad, not condaining. And this is where policing
Speaker 1: can be tricky, that you've got to hold a strong
Speaker 1: moral compass. Yeah you can play hard, but if you
Speaker 1: slip that little bit then it starts to set slippery slope.
Speaker 1: Hopefully not to the extent of Roger. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: was a different time and different rules and it wasn't
Speaker 1: just the police, the courts. We could have unsworn statements
Speaker 1: in the dock. I look back at that and think
Speaker 1: how ludicrous that two detectives could go into a room
Speaker 1: with a suspect and come out and say he refused
Speaker 1: to sign the interview, but this is what he said
Speaker 1: and give evidence in court and a lot of times
Speaker 1: that evidence was accepted.
Speaker 2: It was accepted pretty much all the time by judges,
Speaker 2: magistrates in Sydney, in New South Wales and I suspect
Speaker 2: around Australia in a particular era and police, and you
Speaker 2: would know this from talking to the old detectives. They
Speaker 2: would say, oh, look, we know that say Neil did
Speaker 2: the armed robbery, but we're a bit shy on some evidence.
Speaker 2: We'll just give it a helping hand by saying he
Speaker 2: did a record of interview that's unsigned. Well, the record
Speaker 2: of interview was typed up by the detectives. And I've
Speaker 2: read a lot of those and some of them are well, look,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't say they're humorous, but after a while, and
Speaker 2: you read a lot of them unsigned where they are
Speaker 2: the krim? This is a hardened crim. He's found in
Speaker 2: his bedroom early in the morning with allegedly with some money,
Speaker 2: although only about one thousand out of the fifteen thousand
Speaker 2: that he nicked. And he says something like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: now that you've found the money, what can I say?
Speaker 2: I was in it? You got me, and this is
Speaker 2: a bloke.
Speaker 1: It wasn't really creative.
Speaker 2: Fort No, it wasn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're too good for me. Detect you.
Speaker 2: I was in it, but I didn't fire the shots.
Speaker 2: And these are this is literally the words that are
Speaker 2: coming out.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, but I'm not signing the statement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm happy to tell you everything, but I will
Speaker 2: not sign because that's the code by which I have lived.
Speaker 2: I mean, really, and as you say, Gary, the cops
Speaker 2: get all the blame for this and okay, fair enough,
Speaker 2: but there was a whole system of solicitors, barristers, magistrates
Speaker 2: and judges who went along with it exactly.
Speaker 1: And then they're smart people. We could have scene through
Speaker 1: what was going on. And yeah it's again and I
Speaker 1: treed the careful path here because we can't condone it,
Speaker 1: no what's happened. But police are the ones that the
Speaker 1: finger gets pointed at, and that's fair. You know, they
Speaker 1: get the que los with they do good work and
Speaker 1: you know they're the ones that cop it when it's bad.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it was an interesting time. And I
Speaker 1: just want to put on record here because I'm sitting
Speaker 1: here going to talk about corruption in the police force
Speaker 1: in a deep dive and people might go, well, what
Speaker 1: a hypocrite you are, Gary, you're sitting here. Why are
Speaker 1: you sitting here because I was charge of an offence.
Speaker 1: I just want to say, recording the conversation on the
Speaker 1: telephone I'm having with a suspect is yeah, nothing I'm
Speaker 1: ashamed of. So I just want to put that up
Speaker 1: front now. I don't want to sit here like that.
Speaker 2: I think you're dead right, and I think the New
Speaker 2: South Wales Police Force in having ignored a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff that Rogerson and others did. I think the
Speaker 2: New South Wales Police Force has now got a reputation
Speaker 2: of sometimes eating its own. I call it eating their own.
Speaker 2: They turn on people for things that should be like, oh, okay,
Speaker 2: you've made a mistake, but you've got thirty years service up,
Speaker 2: you know. Let's you know you've made a mistake and
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting you did. But too often it's like out,
Speaker 2: you're out. You know that a ton of bricks comes
Speaker 2: down on you know, a detective sergeant or somebody, and
Speaker 2: it seems to me it's completely unnecessary. So yeah, I
Speaker 2: think it's sometimes they overreact, you know, and people bear
Speaker 2: the front of it.
Speaker 1: Look and I think, focus on the important things and
Speaker 1: we won't get sidetracked. But the recent media talk about
Speaker 1: the commissioner having bottles of gin, like what have we
Speaker 1: got something better to focus on? Like really, like at
Speaker 1: a commissioner, do you think that she would be concerned
Speaker 1: about who gets the bottles of gin? Like it's something
Speaker 1: it's something that's been around for a long time.
Speaker 2: I just think that that, to me is crazy And
Speaker 2: I don't know what people have got against the commissioner.
Speaker 2: I think she's made some mistakes. But the bottle of gin.
Speaker 2: I think that was her predecessor that started that. And
Speaker 2: when I heard that Gary, I think I was reading
Speaker 2: something about Roger. You know, it might have been the
Speaker 2: attempted murder of Michael Drury And I'm going a bottle
Speaker 2: of gin? Is this what we've come to? I mean, seriously,
Speaker 2: this is not corruption? Well I don't think it is.
Speaker 1: Silly. And the fact that the focus is on that,
Speaker 1: what does this world come to? I know? But anyway,
Speaker 1: we digress Neddie. Tell us about Neddie? What do we
Speaker 1: know about Neddie Smith?
Speaker 2: Neddie? I mean, in contrast to Roger, I think Neddie's
Speaker 2: path was sort of set fairly early, pretty much from
Speaker 2: his childhood. He never knew his father. It appears his
Speaker 2: dad was a US serviceman because Ned's born late nineteen
Speaker 2: forty four, so at the end of the Second World War,
Speaker 2: doesn't know his dad. Unhappy childhood, goes to boys' homes,
Speaker 2: gets into trouble fairly early, the usual sort of stuff,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe a bit of stealing or you know,
Speaker 2: reasonably minor stuff. So his path, if you like, as
Speaker 2: to stink from Rogers was to me. His trajectory was
Speaker 2: set from a very early age. And he you know,
Speaker 2: he goes on to commit a gang rape in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty seven, and that's the first time he gets a
Speaker 2: significant lagging. I think he gets seven years for that.
Speaker 2: And after that, like a lot of them in those days,
Speaker 2: have come out of boys' homes, they've done this horrible crime.
Speaker 2: They meet a lot of people in jail. He sort
Speaker 2: of graduates into a whole range of other things. But
Speaker 2: only the time I met Ned, I think it was
Speaker 2: the beginning of eighty seven, was just before he was
Speaker 2: charged with murder. I was working at sixty Minutes, and
Speaker 2: the sixty Minutes report of Mike Munroe said, look, I
Speaker 2: Reckon need Smith might have a story to tell us,
Speaker 2: something about a green light. Anyway, he says, I've arranged
Speaker 2: lunch with Ned. So I went along with Mike Munroe.
Speaker 2: I thought we'd go to, you know, the Iron Duke
Speaker 2: Hotel in Alexandria and have a favorite one, have a
Speaker 2: few schooners and a couple of pies or something. Oh no, no, no,
Speaker 2: that's not Ned Ned's. We're going to Pruniers in Wallara,
Speaker 2: which I think is now called Chiswick. This is this
Speaker 2: is fine dining, this is star there once starts. I've
Speaker 2: been there once too, with Ned starched, white tablecloths, old
Speaker 2: fashioned waiters, blah blah blah. Anyway, Monroe and I are
Speaker 2: sitting there, We've got the sixty minutes expense card, the abbex,
Speaker 2: and it's going well. Ned was incredibly respectful. He was
Speaker 2: almost deferential in his manner, very softly spoken, hulking sort
Speaker 2: of man. He seemed probably bigger than he was, or
Speaker 2: that's how I remember him. And we're having a good
Speaker 2: lunch and we're drinking a few Crown lagers and I
Speaker 2: can't remember what we're eating. But not long after, Mike
Speaker 2: Munroe and myself sit down at Pruneer's with Ned in
Speaker 2: walks another sorry in walks a former New South Wales
Speaker 2: detective sergeant by name of Murray Riley, who has recently
Speaker 2: got out of jail for empting to smuggle in a
Speaker 2: whole pile of marijuana. Murray Riley knows Ned and comes
Speaker 2: over to our table, obviously sees Mike Munroe for sixty minutes,
Speaker 2: introductions all around. Murray goes back to his table, which
Speaker 2: is full of youngish blokes, all dressed in sort of
Speaker 2: like pastors, like it was Miami Vice, the old TV
Speaker 2: series and Love for a good Picture. There loafers, no socks,
Speaker 2: you know. So there's I think there's about four or
Speaker 2: five of them sitting at their table, and from time
Speaker 2: to time I sort of look around and Murray Riley,
Speaker 2: who Ned called the Prince of Promises, he's sort of waving,
Speaker 2: and I noticed they're getting really stuck into the verve.
Speaker 2: Clicko champagne. Anyway, you know, during lunch, we say to Ned,
Speaker 2: what do you do? How are you making a crust?
Speaker 2: And he says, oh, I'm an invalid pension or I'm
Speaker 2: doing the best I can, et cetera. The usual. I
Speaker 2: go to get the bill with my sixty minutes AMEX.
Speaker 2: It's over a thousand dollars. I think it was eleven
Speaker 2: or twelve hundred, I can't remember. And I go to
Speaker 2: Ned very respectfully and say, Ned, we can't, we can't
Speaker 2: pay all this. Our boss will have a fit. And
Speaker 2: he sort of looks over at Riley's table, who are
Speaker 2: cacking themselves with laughter, and he reaches into his pocket
Speaker 2: and I've never forgotten this. He pulls out this huge
Speaker 2: what a fifty dollars, notes like he's got a big hand,
Speaker 2: but it's just choc a block of fifties, peels off
Speaker 2: about five hundred six hundred and says there you go. Thanks,
Speaker 2: ned really appreciate it. And then he drives off in
Speaker 2: a brand new Mercedes. And I'm saying to Monroe, that's
Speaker 2: that's some bension. He's got their mate. But he was. Look,
Speaker 2: that was the only time I met him. Really. I
Speaker 2: spoke to him once or twice after that, but not
Speaker 2: he was just I suspect when he was you know,
Speaker 2: with certain people, he could be very respectful, but we
Speaker 2: know that you know, he'd been convicted of a gang rape.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you've got the nature of a crime like that,
Speaker 1: I think book and go, okay, respect a tough guy,
Speaker 1: a gangster, he does this. That so Katie lives by.
Speaker 1: But when you've crossed the line, when you're going in
Speaker 1: the gang rape, it shows the type of person that
Speaker 1: you're dealing with. There's nothing you can't dress that up.
Speaker 2: He tried to in later years, and for the book,
Speaker 2: I eventually got hold of the transcript of that case
Speaker 2: that were at least the committal proceedings and the victim
Speaker 2: had gone to the police the very next day with
Speaker 2: her mum. She was examined by a government medical officer.
Speaker 2: He gave evidence because Ned's solicitor was trying to suggest
Speaker 2: that there was nothing untoward here. And the government medical
Speaker 2: officer said she had bruises all over her body and
Speaker 2: she had been pinned. Her arms were bruised. It was
Speaker 2: consistent with her being pinned down, and he had no
Speaker 2: doubt she had been raped. So, no matter how much
Speaker 2: Ned tried to dress it up that she'd enjoy it violent,
Speaker 2: it was a violent gag rate and she said the
Speaker 2: victim said he was the ring leader. It never would
Speaker 2: have happened without Ned Smith.
Speaker 1: And yeah, Roger and that we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: their relationship next. But that to me, and I'm thinking
Speaker 1: from a policeman's point of view, there's certain people that
Speaker 1: you associate with and then there's certain natures of crime.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that one's got a big mark, wouldn't trust him,
Speaker 1: don't like him, wouldn't do a thing for him, committed
Speaker 1: crime like that. So that just shows to me, and
Speaker 1: this is just my thinking, how low Roger stoops to
Speaker 1: hang out with him and spend time with him and
Speaker 1: get involved in what they've done. When did they first meet?
Speaker 1: At what stage? Are there careers that should have been
Speaker 1: in opposite directions?
Speaker 2: But they first meet in nineteen seventy six, Ned Smith
Speaker 2: and a good mate of his, another armed Robert called
Speaker 2: Bobby Chapman, have tried to do a robbery on a
Speaker 2: payroll that was heading towards field as bakery a company,
Speaker 2: you know, a bakery company, and the two blokes who
Speaker 2: are picking up the cash because in those days everybody
Speaker 2: got paid in cash, so the cash had to get
Speaker 2: from the bank to the office, whichever office that was.
Speaker 2: Ned and his mate Bobby Chapman try to Robert fail,
Speaker 2: but shots afied, one of which just very narrowly misses
Speaker 2: the bloke driving the car Lodgers in the part of
Speaker 2: the car very close to his head, so he is
Speaker 2: almost killed. This is the first time that Roger catches
Speaker 2: up with Ned. It's not in the way it was
Speaker 2: portrayed in Blue Murder. But Ned Smith and Bobby Chapman
Speaker 2: are both arrested. You know, they're charged, but you know,
Speaker 2: Bobby Chapman is accused of firing the shots, and in
Speaker 2: later years Chapman says Ned dubbed me in for that.
Speaker 2: But it's at that stage that Roger starts to develop
Speaker 2: the relationship with Ned Smith because he can see he's
Speaker 2: been in jail for a long time, he's mixing with
Speaker 2: various criminals and he could be useful. So it's sort
Speaker 2: of I guess it flourishes from there. But just to
Speaker 2: give you some idea of the way, it sort of
Speaker 2: cut both ways. I mean, this guy, Bobby Chapman, was
Speaker 2: accused of firing the shots in that botch to get away.
Speaker 2: When it comes to trial, Roger gets in the box.
Speaker 2: Bear in mind, Roger has taken a statement allegedly from
Speaker 2: Bobby Chapman in which he says, oh, yeah, I fired
Speaker 2: the shots, but it was an accident unsigned unsigned. Yep.
Speaker 2: Funny about that, because Bobby Chapman is as hard as
Speaker 2: nails and wouldn't say boodoor goose. Anyway, there's this record
Speaker 2: of interview Roger swears it's true, where Bobby Chapman says
Speaker 2: I fired the shots but it was accidental. Gets to trial.
Speaker 2: Roger send to the witness box and, much to the
Speaker 2: dismay and amazement of all, says, I've done further investigation.
Speaker 2: I've now found out that the shots weren't fired by
Speaker 2: Bobby by Chapman. They are fired by a bloke called
Speaker 2: Robert McKinnon who's an associate of Ned and Chapman. McKinnon
Speaker 2: has disappeared, and the Crown Prosecutor is going, hang on,
Speaker 2: You've got a statement that you took from Bobby Chapman
Speaker 2: saying he fired but it was an accident, and now
Speaker 2: you're telling me, which you swear is true. But on
Speaker 2: the other hand, you've now found this guy, Robert McKinnon,
Speaker 2: who fired the shots, and you're saying you've got that
Speaker 2: information from an informant. Of course, Robert McKinnon can never
Speaker 2: be found. The trial is aborted and Chapman, who's already
Speaker 2: in jail for something else, gets a much lesser sentence
Speaker 2: than he would have. It's a complete backflip and it
Speaker 2: defies logic.
Speaker 1: And that comes through in quite a few things, and
Speaker 1: we'll talk about one shortly where the consequences were someone
Speaker 1: innocent person ended up dead. But I've heard people talk
Speaker 1: about Roger people with I respect and said he was
Speaker 1: brilliant in the witness box, that charisma he came across, honest,
Speaker 1: he brilliant, memory presented well to the jury, charm people,
Speaker 1: that type of thing. But what front has he got
Speaker 1: to do do that? I'm just as you were telling
Speaker 1: that story, I'm sitting here thinking, how would you do that?
Speaker 1: In the witness Yeah, Neil, you confess to me, But
Speaker 1: now I know it's not Neil. It was in fact John.
Speaker 1: Do you know that? Oh, some informant told me it
Speaker 1: was John, but didn't That's right.
Speaker 2: As the Crown prosecutor said, this was outside court apparently
Speaker 2: said you can't have it both ways. You can't swear
Speaker 2: that Chapman made the statement, the unsigned statement in which
Speaker 2: he confesses to firing the shots, and now come in
Speaker 2: and tell us that it wasn't him, it was some
Speaker 2: other bloke who, conveniently for everyone, has disappeared off the
Speaker 2: face of the earth, never to be found. Yeah, the front,
Speaker 2: I mean, he just seemed to and I'm reading this transcript,
Speaker 2: he seems to be completely unphased by any suggestion of inconsistency, wrongdoing.
Speaker 2: He's just He's Roger, He's the prince of the city.
Speaker 1: Above it. Now, it would be fair to interpret that
Speaker 1: change of evidence would lend itself very nicely to receiving
Speaker 1: money to help someone get off, I suspect.
Speaker 2: So Roger in later years said that Bobby Chapman was
Speaker 2: his informant. He also described him as the toughest man
Speaker 2: he'd ever met. I know that Chapman always denied being
Speaker 2: the informant. I spoke to somebody for the book and
Speaker 2: that person said, well, there might be another explanation. Bobby
Speaker 2: was paying him, you know. And Bobby did have a
Speaker 2: fair amount of cash around that time in his I
Speaker 2: think it was in his wife's grandmother's safe. Maybe I.
Speaker 1: Laugh because of he's a by gone era. It is
Speaker 1: the laughing. Is not that the consequences that play out
Speaker 1: from this, but it just seems too ridiculous. We look
Speaker 1: back now and how the hell did that all happen?
Speaker 2: Well, how could you get away with it? And even
Speaker 2: back then in that instance of Bobby Chapman and the
Speaker 2: Crown prosecutor took him outside the trials boarded and the
Speaker 2: Crown prosecutors I don't believe there is an informant. He
Speaker 2: didn't believe it at the time, but there was nothing
Speaker 2: he could do. And it wasn't the first time that
Speaker 2: Roger changed his evidence. There were a couple of other
Speaker 2: instances where he arrests a heroin dealer. This is around
Speaker 2: nine in eighty two eighty three. The guy is driving
Speaker 2: a very I think it was a purple Triumph stag
Speaker 2: and in the car they find like eight bags of
Speaker 2: white powder, sets of scales, other bags, so it's consistent
Speaker 2: with somebody being a I suppose street level heroin dealer.
Speaker 2: Roger arrests him, charges him, gets to court, and Roger
Speaker 2: gets in the witness box, having arrest this bloke, you know,
Speaker 2: got to the stage of the trial and says, I've
Speaker 2: made further investigations. Again, I believe that this person is
Speaker 2: innocent and that everything was planted in the car and
Speaker 2: on his person by his enemies because he had enemies
Speaker 2: in the local business community. And again this time was
Speaker 2: a magistrate. I think Matte Straight's going, what what you've
Speaker 2: charged this guy? You've said, you know, you've presented the evidence,
Speaker 2: and now you're telling me it's not true. He's a victim.
Speaker 2: And the guy gets off. I mean, Gary, you're right,
Speaker 2: I mean the front. I don't know if it's confidence
Speaker 2: or hubris or ego or whatever it was the combination,
Speaker 2: but to actually sit there and be able to say
Speaker 2: that with a straight face and think you can carry
Speaker 2: it off. That tells you, I think a lot about Roger.
Speaker 1: I think it also says a little bit about the
Speaker 1: power of the police back in those days, because you've
Speaker 1: got the magistrates here, the people in the legal for
Speaker 1: attorney they'd be seeing there, and the journalists as well,
Speaker 1: everyone that'd know what was going on, Like you don't
Speaker 1: have to be Einstein to join the dots on those situations.
Speaker 1: But it was allowed to run.
Speaker 2: And yeah, magistrates would have Well, in this case, the
Speaker 2: magistrate blew up and Roger had to go to the
Speaker 2: police headquarters and get some sort of formal documentation to
Speaker 2: drop the charges because the magistrate.
Speaker 1: Was that's rights refused.
Speaker 2: He refused. But you're right in so many cases, and
Speaker 2: it goes back to the old verbals and the old
Speaker 2: load ups. You know, it was an accepted practice. They
Speaker 2: were very very different times. It was accepted by some
Speaker 2: lawyers and some magistrates and judges because it worked for
Speaker 2: so many years.
Speaker 1: And I suppose it was allowed to a degree. And
Speaker 1: this is not saying that's right it was allowed. Would
Speaker 1: agree in that. Now in policing, we've got so many
Speaker 1: tools to use. When we're talking forensics, be electronic, physical surveillance,
Speaker 1: that type of thing, so it's easier to gather the
Speaker 1: facts and gather the evidence. Back in the day, well,
Speaker 1: if someone got mooded on the street, there's no CCTV footage,
Speaker 1: there's no phone records, there's no cameras there, so you know,
Speaker 1: maybe it was a Okay, we're not happy with it,
Speaker 1: but we'll let the balance stay there in favor of
Speaker 1: the police.
Speaker 2: I think there was that element that very much. And
Speaker 2: Rogerson argued this with me in an interview he did.
Speaker 2: I think we screened it on Four Corners where he
Speaker 2: talked about that sort of culture where he said there
Speaker 2: were three squads that did at the consorting squad armed
Speaker 2: hold up and the stick ups. But he said it
Speaker 2: was just accepted and it was done to people who
Speaker 2: were quote getting out of line. And it's as you've
Speaker 2: just explained, they didn't have listening devices, telephone intercepts, CCTV
Speaker 2: all that stuff, and as far as Roger was concerned,
Speaker 2: this was actually and it's been called this. No, I
Speaker 2: don't think Roger ever called anything corruption, but it's been
Speaker 2: described as noble cause corruption where police would go, we
Speaker 2: know Neil's done it he's getting out of hand, he's
Speaker 2: running around the streets with a gun. We're going to
Speaker 2: put him behind bars, and we'll do it by hook
Speaker 2: or by crook. And look again, it's difficult to sometimes
Speaker 2: explain to people that that's how things were, and there
Speaker 2: was an element of well, you know what, if Neil
Speaker 2: was running around with a shotgun in the street, good
Speaker 2: on them. I know it's illegal and I know it
Speaker 2: shouldn't happen, but they are very different times, and the
Speaker 2: very different times for everybody journalism policing the law. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's still wrong.
Speaker 1: I think it's important to make that, and that's more
Speaker 1: important to say it's still wrong. But I remember remember
Speaker 1: having a conversation with a particular detective where some let's
Speaker 1: call it hard police work was done and the person
Speaker 1: was put away, and I've gone, you're sure that's going
Speaker 1: to stand up in court and if we lose it,
Speaker 1: we lose it. But what do you want let him
Speaker 1: run around and shoot innocent people? And I'm thinking I
Speaker 1: wouldn't have charged the person. I didn't think there was
Speaker 1: enough evidence, and I had some respect for the person
Speaker 1: that had the ticker to charge this person, knowing that
Speaker 1: there's going to be criticism and when I challenged the
Speaker 1: person on it said, well, what do you want us
Speaker 1: to do? Let him run a round shooting innocent people.
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, I understand that and noble cause
Speaker 1: corruption that was really drummed into us. So I'm talking
Speaker 1: mid eighties when I started in the police, and it
Speaker 1: was really drummed into us. So where we were learning
Speaker 1: and where we were evolving that obviously the Royal Commission
Speaker 1: in the New South Wales Police turned things up on
Speaker 1: its head again, but it was different times. But in
Speaker 1: reading your book and it gave me the preciation of
Speaker 1: how you moved the moral compass slightly, Roger. If we're
Speaker 1: talking what you talked about, there was a drug dealer
Speaker 1: has got off for being punished in crime if a
Speaker 1: bribe was paid or whatever. There was another example in
Speaker 1: the book where someone actually an innocent person ended up
Speaker 1: there because of that same type of behavior. Can you
Speaker 1: talk us through that story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is what I call the saga of robber
Speaker 2: by the name of Philip Weston, who was a Kiwi.
Speaker 2: He robbed a bank in New Zealand. He did some
Speaker 2: time there. He comes over to Australia and Western robs
Speaker 2: a bank at the end of nineteen seventy five. I
Speaker 2: think it's December twenty nine, nineteen seventy five. The armed
Speaker 2: hold up squad is on to him and his three
Speaker 2: accomplices within twenty four hours. They've obviously got a very
Speaker 2: good informant, and Western is arrested in bondi junction I
Speaker 2: think on January one, nineteen seventy six, at gunpoint by police.
Speaker 2: He goes for a gun. It's a violent struggle, you know.
Speaker 2: They visit his flat where he's been living. There's armoralite rifles,
Speaker 2: there's handguns. There's false passports, there's false driver's licenses, wigs,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, the whole kitten kerboodle that a
Speaker 2: serious crook needs. There's a number of detectives involved in
Speaker 2: the arrest of Philip Western and his three co accused.
Speaker 2: Roger's one of them. The key person here is Philip Western.
Speaker 2: He applies for bail, it's initially refused. He applies for
Speaker 2: bail again, and armhold up detectives oppose it vigorously, vigorously. No, No,
Speaker 2: if he gets out, he's going to do another armed robbery.
Speaker 2: Should not get out bail's refused, bail refused, bail refused.
Speaker 2: I think they're in total, there's about eight applications, just
Speaker 2: keeps going and going and going. Roger gets involved, and
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the tone of the armhold up
Speaker 2: squad is saying about Philip western changes quite dramatically. Oh look,
Speaker 2: Phillip's the black sheep of the family. I've met his mother,
Speaker 2: I've met his wife. She's living in they're both living
Speaker 2: in Manly. He's got two kids. They are people of
Speaker 2: the highest integrity. His mum needs Philip because you know,
Speaker 2: she's been ripped off by a couple of shysters. It's
Speaker 2: a sob story. It just the ground shifts dramatically. He
Speaker 2: doesn't get bail that day, but you can see the
Speaker 2: groundwork is being laid. And eventually, and I think through
Speaker 2: Rogerson and one other detective who they're both now dead.
Speaker 2: Eventually Philip Weston appears at short notice and coincidentally or not,
Speaker 2: the detectives who have been opposing his bail vigorously. One
Speaker 2: of them's on annual leave, the other one the day
Speaker 2: before or has gone off on a cruise round the
Speaker 2: South Pacific with his wife. Might be a coincidence might
Speaker 2: be not for.
Speaker 1: A short short bail application.
Speaker 2: Bail application comes on the next to the next day.
Speaker 1: Just breaking this down, now, say the two key officers
Speaker 1: that were opposed to bail and had strong evidence they
Speaker 1: happened to be away. Ye, the bail application is made
Speaker 1: at short not.
Speaker 2: Hes made at short notice. Roger doesn't get in the box,
Speaker 2: but a very good mate of his gets in the
Speaker 2: box before a judge of the district court. And despite
Speaker 2: this guy being involved in the arrest, he says, Oh,
Speaker 2: I know nothing about Western, I know nothing about his
Speaker 2: mum or anything like that. Blah blah blah. You know
Speaker 2: who can say if you lanser bail, he probably will.
Speaker 2: I don't know if he was arrested at gunpoint. It's
Speaker 2: wishy washy completely. I know nothing.
Speaker 1: As reading you your book, I was thinking, well, what
Speaker 1: the hell are you doing in the witness spot.
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's what the It later emerged, that's what
Speaker 2: the Crown prosecutors were saying. If you haven't if you
Speaker 2: can't present the evidence, if you don't know the evidence,
Speaker 2: why are you in court? As it turned out, he
Speaker 2: knew that detective knew exactly what sort of person Western
Speaker 2: was he failed to tell the crown. He failed to
Speaker 2: tell the judge. Western gets bail for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: He or sorry for about a week. He reports, but
Speaker 2: then he stops reporting to Paddington Police station. He's on
Speaker 2: the run. Very shortly after that, he's at Westfield paramatter.
Speaker 2: Philip weston the arm drobber. A bank officer notices him
Speaker 2: near the front door of the bank, trying to get in.
Speaker 2: He confronts Western. There's a bit of a struggle. Western
Speaker 2: runs away, the bank manager chases him. In those days,
Speaker 2: would you believe bank managers were given revolvers to stop
Speaker 2: armed robbers? I mean, you know, the bank manager chases,
Speaker 2: bravely chases Western, turns around and shoots him dead. There's
Speaker 2: an inquiry, but look and Roger's questioned, but it doesn't
Speaker 2: go anywhere because it's the inquiry you're having when you're
Speaker 2: not having an inquiry. There's no doubt now that I've
Speaker 2: looked at the transcript of that inquiry and spoken to
Speaker 2: people who are involved, there's no doubt in my mind
Speaker 2: that all that circumstantial evidence points to Roger Rogerson manipulating
Speaker 2: the system so that Philip Western got bail, and there
Speaker 2: was a huge amount of money fifty thousand either paid
Speaker 2: or to be paid to Rogerson and the result of
Speaker 2: that man getting bail, an innocent bank manager was murdered
Speaker 2: in broad daylight in the middle of a westfield shoping.
Speaker 2: He had two kids.
Speaker 1: And if that's not enough to check yourself, if you
Speaker 1: were taking dollars on bribes to help people, and that's
Speaker 1: the consequences you have. You've a sworn police officer and
Speaker 1: you're involved in that. So what happened to Western.
Speaker 2: Wells wanted for murder. He's not just for jumping his bail.
Speaker 2: He's the the suspect in the murder of this bank manager,
Speaker 2: forty year old bank manager, wife, two kids. You know,
Speaker 2: it's been in the bank. It's his life, or it was.
Speaker 2: Western's on the run. Roger pretty much takes control of
Speaker 2: the hunt for Philip Weston. He's a key planner in
Speaker 2: the whole thing. Western is finally located north of Sydney, Avoca,
Speaker 2: about eighty ninety k's north of Sydney. I think in
Speaker 2: a little shack on a beach, the armhold up squad
Speaker 2: And was it the special not It wasn't special weapons
Speaker 2: in those days, but it was the equivalent. They're all
Speaker 2: armed with profests and shotguns. They surround Philip Western early
Speaker 2: one morning. Tear gas goes into the little beach shack
Speaker 2: where Western is. He's got a gun. Shots are fired
Speaker 2: from inside. He sticks his head through a bathroom window
Speaker 2: to be confronted by three officers, all with shotguns. They
Speaker 2: fear they're going to be shot, so they open fire.
Speaker 2: Philip Western is shot dead. And I don't think on
Speaker 2: the documentation that I've seen, I don't think there is
Speaker 2: anything well, I'm not sure I fun toward is the
Speaker 2: right word, but I don't think there's anything suspicious about
Speaker 2: the actual death of Western. It's what preceded that, how
Speaker 2: he got bail. But you know, with Western's death, conveniently
Speaker 2: for Roger, Trail is dead. The Trail there's nothing, there's
Speaker 2: no allegation that can be proved. One of the interesting
Speaker 2: things was that I found in some of the documents
Speaker 2: Gary was that if Western had been taken alive, the
Speaker 2: person who was going to drive him back to Sydney
Speaker 2: was Rogerson. Well, obviously with a couple of other police.
Speaker 2: But you sort of look at that and you go, wow,
Speaker 2: he sort of had all bases covered.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm looking at an operation of that nature
Speaker 1: and the complexity of it all that if doing corruptly
Speaker 1: what he had done, He's juggling so many different things.
Speaker 2: It's extraordinary, really, I mean. But such was his standing
Speaker 2: that he.
Speaker 1: Could didn't get questioned.
Speaker 2: He didn't get questioned.
Speaker 1: So that was the end of Western.
Speaker 2: That was the end of Western. There was an inquiry
Speaker 2: run by somebody from the Public Service Board and Roger
Speaker 2: was called and that's where a lot of this evidence
Speaker 2: came out. But it just never went anywhere, And there
Speaker 2: was some allegations of wrongdoing, never went anywhere. It was
Speaker 2: just they were in a tiny little paper one day,
Speaker 2: forgotten the next, We're just sailed on.
Speaker 1: Without mentioning names. You've spoken to the police that were
Speaker 1: very angry about what happened in that situation too, the
Speaker 1: people that saw it for what it was and no
Speaker 1: action taken.
Speaker 2: I spoke to and this is in very recent years,
Speaker 2: or in fact last year. One of the armhold Ups
Speaker 2: GOD members who had vigorously opposed Philip Western's pail is
Speaker 2: still with us. And I wrote him a letter and
Speaker 2: I said, oh, do you remember anything about this case?
Speaker 2: And he phoned me about a week later and he said, yeah,
Speaker 2: I do remember it. He said, men died because of
Speaker 2: what Roger did. I don't want to talk over the phone.
Speaker 2: Come and see me. This guy's in his middle, still still.
Speaker 1: Old school paranoia, never lose.
Speaker 2: I don't talk over the phone. And I'm thinking, okay,
Speaker 2: I go to see him, and he says, I've got
Speaker 2: no doubt Rogerson was paid. The word was he was
Speaker 2: paid fifty grand, or was going to be paid fifty grand.
Speaker 2: That's why Western was trying to rob the bank to
Speaker 2: pay Roger. And he is he was a good mate
Speaker 2: of Roger's at one point. And very shortly after Western
Speaker 2: was shot at a vocer and he comes back from
Speaker 2: his Russian cruise liner trip around the South Pacific. He's
Speaker 2: unceremoniously kicked out of the armhold up squad.
Speaker 1: That's how he's true.
Speaker 2: That's how he is treated. Because Roger knew that he
Speaker 2: was no longer, couldn't be trust, couldn't be trusted, that
Speaker 2: would be that would be it. And even though they'd
Speaker 2: been mates, they shared a card to work, their families
Speaker 2: knew each other. That was it. He was out, and
Speaker 2: it was pretty much I wouldn't say the end of
Speaker 2: his police career, but it never really recovered.
Speaker 1: Soul destroying. I'd say, if you're fighting against the culture
Speaker 1: and that's and the organization that you're trying to protect
Speaker 1: doesn't support you, and you just get flicked. I can
Speaker 1: imagine what he was, what he was going through. The
Speaker 1: thing that really came out to me on it, Neil,
Speaker 1: and this is I feel like I'm naive because I
Speaker 1: know about the crimes you're talking about in different things.
Speaker 1: But when they've done something like that, I would think
Speaker 1: if they got away with what played out there, that
Speaker 1: would be the end of it. Surely, surely a half
Speaker 1: decent human being and say, enough is enough, we've lost
Speaker 1: our way. Someone with a moral compass must put the
Speaker 1: hand up and go stuff this, this is where we're
Speaker 1: going down the wrong path. But it didn't.
Speaker 2: It never happened. And I think Western Philip Weston, the
Speaker 2: bloke who gets shot up at a voca, was portrayed
Speaker 2: as a madman, mad dog, you know, and the newspapers
Speaker 2: of the day, you know, and fair enough they're getting
Speaker 2: the information from the police, you know. Don't approach him,
Speaker 2: don't go near him. He's going to and Rogerson or
Speaker 2: one of Rogerson's closest colleagues puts in this report saying
Speaker 2: he will he will shoot it out with police. He
Speaker 2: hates the armed hold up squad. He will take every
Speaker 2: officer with him. So don't approach him. Whatever you do, like,
Speaker 2: you know, leave it to us.
Speaker 1: So it's almost setting up the public to be ready
Speaker 1: that when he was arrested, he was shot and killed
Speaker 1: and the police won the gunfight.
Speaker 2: They won the gun fight, don't get me wrong. I mean,
Speaker 2: Philip Western had done a very bad scene obviously, but
Speaker 2: he wouldn't have been out on bail in my opinion,
Speaker 2: and given the the material that I've uncovered over the
Speaker 2: last few years, he would not have been out on
Speaker 2: bail if not.
Speaker 1: For Roger and that bank manager had still he'd still
Speaker 1: be alive. Yeah, I know that's the consequences of it,
Speaker 1: can I Yeah, I said it was going to be
Speaker 1: a heavy conversation. We're go into a murky world, but
Speaker 1: we'll push through. The shooting of Lawrence burn.
Speaker 2: Lawrence Byrn was shot in nineteen seventy eight. Who by well,
Speaker 2: no prize is for guessing here, Garry, He's shot by
Speaker 2: Roger Rogerson. Lawrence Butcher Burn. His nickname was Butcher. He's
Speaker 2: an armed robber. He's got a record. Roger in fact,
Speaker 2: tells me many many years ago that he'd arrested Butcher
Speaker 2: a couple of times he'd done armed robberies. But the
Speaker 2: armhold Up Squad has a tip off at least two
Speaker 2: or three weeks before that Butcher is going to rob
Speaker 2: the South the payroff sorry, the takings of South Sydney
Speaker 2: Juniors on a Sunday, because every Sunday the club taking
Speaker 2: is from the previous Friday, Saturday and so on are
Speaker 2: taken in an old combe with maybe one or two
Speaker 2: old blokes as security and deposited in a night's safe
Speaker 2: in a bank in Anzac Parade. So we're talking about
Speaker 2: you know, Anzac Parade, Randwick, the Kingsford, Yeah, pretty much
Speaker 2: sort of middlers, not the CBD.
Speaker 1: But just on the outskirts.
Speaker 2: It's just on the outskirts, and they observe Butchery Burn.
Speaker 2: One week he's clearly surveiling the old combe as it
Speaker 2: comes towards the bank. But that's all he's doing. And
Speaker 2: they know it's Butcher because Butcher is actually in jail
Speaker 2: at this time. But he's doing day release. So on
Speaker 2: the Saturday before Butcher is shot, he's in jail. Somebody
Speaker 2: finds the jail and says we need Butcher for an
Speaker 2: urgent painting job because he had been working for on
Speaker 2: day release for a painting and decorating company. And the
Speaker 2: jail goes, oh okay. So Butcher walks out the door
Speaker 2: that Sunday morning, meets up with two mates and they
Speaker 2: go to rob the takings of South Sydney Juniors. You know,
Speaker 2: the old Combe turns up, you know, same time, same place,
Speaker 2: same station, every week, So predictable.
Speaker 1: Butch.
Speaker 2: He's there with his two co accues. But so is
Speaker 2: the armed hold up squad. And Roger has got a bulletproofessed.
Speaker 2: He's got his shotgun, a Remington shotgun which apparently has
Speaker 2: some very powerful shot, not just your normal pellets. There
Speaker 2: are many many police there in cars. Roger says, I
Speaker 2: saw Butcher burn starting to point his shotgun in my direction.
Speaker 2: I open fire. Roger fire's four blasts from his shotgun.
Speaker 2: His colleague, the late arts at least four shots from
Speaker 2: his service revolver. Some of them go through the windscreens,
Speaker 2: some of them go into the tires. Car takes off
Speaker 2: down Anzac Pray. This is ten thirty on a Sunday morning,
Speaker 2: middle of February. Car takes off. Other police who are
Speaker 2: there in the stakeout start opening fire. One officer empties
Speaker 2: six shots from his smith and Wesson. A police car
Speaker 2: gives chase. An officer leans out of the car, firing
Speaker 2: his shotgun at the escaping crims, who are apparently firing
Speaker 2: back through the back window, which is now shattered. The
Speaker 2: car's riddled with bullets. It gets about a few hundred
Speaker 2: meters down Anzac Prayed and comes to a stop, tires
Speaker 2: shot out. A Butchy has been mortally wounded. The two
Speaker 2: other guys in the car incredibly, one of them has
Speaker 2: a sort of a slight wound, but they're still alive.
Speaker 2: Nobody quite knows how, because as Roger described this to
Speaker 2: me in later years, I think he said this at
Speaker 2: one of his shows that he did. He said that
Speaker 2: car was full of more holes than your mother's colander.
Speaker 2: And Butcher fell out of the car dead onto the raid. Well,
Speaker 2: not quite as Roger described it in later years, but
Speaker 2: Butch he did fall out of the car. He died
Speaker 2: six days later in hospital and at the very very
Speaker 2: short inquest that followed that, as far as I can
Speaker 2: make out, barely got reported. Butcher was shot either by
Speaker 2: Roger's shotgun or the other bloke who was firing the shotgun.
Speaker 2: But Roger took the credit. So it was you know,
Speaker 2: we'll wait for him. We know he's coming out of jail,
Speaker 2: we know he's going to do the job. We'll just wait.
Speaker 2: And you know, there were people on the footpath, there
Speaker 2: were the couple of old blokes in the combe who
Speaker 2: were taking the money, and all of a sudden there's
Speaker 2: a gunfight in the middle of Anzac Parade in Sydney.
Speaker 2: At least twenty shots were fire, and I think that's
Speaker 2: probably an underestimate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, planning operations like that, there's there's certain
Speaker 1: times and it always improves and it's tightened up. But
Speaker 1: that's yeah, it's messy in the regards unless you're there,
Speaker 1: I suppose I can't really comment, but it's amazing that
Speaker 1: another shooting that Rogers had dealings with the deceased person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. He knew him, as he said himself.
Speaker 2: He told me he knew Butcher. People knew who Butcher was.
Speaker 2: And look if Butcher was pointing his shotgun at Roger
Speaker 2: and maybe the blokes in the comby van problems. There's
Speaker 2: no problems. Yeah, and the shots were definitely fired. So
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that this maybe falls into the you know,
Speaker 2: the worst category. I guess it goes to policing in
Speaker 2: those days where that's how things were done. The robbers
Speaker 2: were on their way, there's no listening devices for the car.
Speaker 2: You can't listen to their mobile phones. You've got to
Speaker 2: let it unfold well.
Speaker 1: And from tactical policing got to because there was a
Speaker 1: couple of other police shootings and we board in the
Speaker 1: policy of contained in the gashat and that was in
Speaker 1: place at the Link Cafe. But then different things for
Speaker 1: you know, if it's a terrorist situation, because you've got
Speaker 1: to evolve and adapt. But yeah, I look at the
Speaker 1: latter part of my career, look at the early part
Speaker 1: of my career. At the early part of my career,
Speaker 1: I remember sitting in banks or outside banks with guns
Speaker 1: waiting for someone to come and robert and arrest them.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't a great You didn't need to get
Speaker 1: signed off by senior police officers. It was basically the
Speaker 1: detective's office. What are you doing O this Blake's going
Speaker 1: to go Robert Bank. We're going to wait for him
Speaker 1: and catch him. Catch him there. That was the way
Speaker 1: I think things were done. I think they need to
Speaker 1: tail tighten up the jail security if I'm not wrong.
Speaker 1: It was a phone call from a company that was
Speaker 1: no longer it exists.
Speaker 2: It was a phone call from a company that I
Speaker 2: think had gone into well liquidation or what. It was
Speaker 2: a very small company which was run by a guy
Speaker 2: who had met Butcher in jail. So he had a
Speaker 2: criminal record himself. And he was interviewed and he said,
Speaker 2: I never phoned the jail. I hadn't employed Butchy for
Speaker 2: like six months. I never phoned anybody. So somebody has
Speaker 2: phoned the jail someone and said we need butchery. Maybe
Speaker 2: it was one of his co accused, but they just
Speaker 2: led him out.
Speaker 1: Not a lot of checks and balance, No, there weren't.
Speaker 1: No we'll have a break in a sect. But you know,
Speaker 1: you just talked about Anzac parade ten to thirty on
Speaker 1: a Sunday morning and yeah, fourthy or so shots and
Speaker 1: in car chases. Can you imagine that happening today? The attention,
Speaker 1: it's almost like it's something that thankfully it doesn't happen,
Speaker 1: but it's almost like something that's.
Speaker 2: It's a by god era, and you know, that's the
Speaker 2: way things were done. There were shotguns in the back
Speaker 2: of police cars, people took off and armed robbery was
Speaker 2: about to happen, as you say, although in Butcher's case
Speaker 2: they had like a couple of weeks warning. So look,
Speaker 2: maybe things could have been done differently. That's not my area.
Speaker 2: All I can do is say, here's what we know
Speaker 2: from the coronial inquest, and these are the statements of
Speaker 2: the police themselves. But look, there was no criticism of Rogerson,
Speaker 2: there was no criticism of anybody. But he had pulled
Speaker 2: a gun or a shotgun and another bloke who also
Speaker 2: had a gun had fired back. But it wouldn't happen now,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't happen.
Speaker 1: Well, it was a sign of the times, wasn't it.
Speaker 1: The police were untouchable in terms of the view of
Speaker 1: the public. The police are just doing their job. The
Speaker 1: bad guys would be arguing against it. But the general
Speaker 1: public and the way the media reported that whatever the
Speaker 1: police did, it was for the good of society.
Speaker 2: So that's right of the question, that's right, and in
Speaker 2: those days, you know, you had crime reporters who had
Speaker 2: a very good relationship with detectives. In particular, I think
Speaker 2: you could say better almost you know, with homicide, because crime,
Speaker 2: well like now sold newspapers in those days, particularly tabloids,
Speaker 2: and there was nothing wrong with that. But reporters were
Speaker 2: very close to detectives like Rogerson, not necessarily a whole
Speaker 2: range of detectives, and they are not going to be critical.
Speaker 2: And there wasn't that investigative side happening back in the seventies.
Speaker 1: Na.
Speaker 2: I think the first time it really came into being
Speaker 2: was probably with land Francie. It started that started the question,
Speaker 2: started people questioning, hang on, there's something seriously wrong here,
Speaker 2: something either with the methods or the end result or
Speaker 2: the end you know, what's happened.
Speaker 1: Something smelly there. We'll get onto that in part two.
Speaker 1: But we talk about and I feel the need to
Speaker 1: defend police too because we talk about corrupt small portion.
Speaker 1: I know people, I know detectives that worked in those
Speaker 1: squads in those times, and I've got nothing but that
Speaker 1: mast respect for him and the rotten apple like Roger
Speaker 1: and others bring our reputation down, and I know I'll
Speaker 1: sit here and say, from a former detective, I despise
Speaker 1: people like that that have tarnished the reputation of the
Speaker 1: hard working, hard working detectives.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I agree with the absolutely because I know
Speaker 2: some of those people from the old Harmed Armed hold
Speaker 2: Up Squad and other squads, and in my view, they
Speaker 2: were really, really good detectives. And it's what you alluded
Speaker 2: to earlier. They worked with Roger. I don't think a
Speaker 2: lot of them knew exactly what he was doing. I
Speaker 2: think he manipulated his colleagues, some of them, not all
Speaker 2: of them, but yeah, they didn't know what he was
Speaker 2: doing or planning or you know. So I think a
Speaker 2: lot of them were unfairly tarnished by Roger. And I
Speaker 2: would like to make that point too, that I think
Speaker 2: there are a lot of good detectives. Everybody goes, oh,
Speaker 2: they're all corrupt, they were all rotten. It was a
Speaker 2: shocking era. Well no, it's not that simple. There were
Speaker 2: good detectives there and Roger, well, boy did he tarnish
Speaker 2: a few reputations.
Speaker 1: Unsay the least, that's probably a good way to win
Speaker 1: m Part one. We'll be back shortly with part two.
Speaker 1: Thanks now, thank you