WEBVTT - How Roger Rogerson got away with murder: Neil Mercer Pt.1 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.880 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.160 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.599 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, said, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.560 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.800 Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. The world 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.360 of crime is a murky place, but when the crooked 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.520 cops joined forces with the criminals, politicians and judicial officers, 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.320 things can get out of hand. That's exactly what happened 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.000 in a particular shameful time in New South Wales's history. 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.560 We're talking here about the seventies and eighties in Sydney, 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.960 where money, drugs and violence corrupted our streets. We're going 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.800 to get an extraordinary insight into this world for award 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.399 winning journalist Neil Mercer. He's going to give us a 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:19.440 definitive inside story of Nettie Smith and Roger Rogerson, which 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.080 he also wrote a book about called The Kingping and 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:26.000 the Crooked Cop. Rogerson at one stage was a respected cop. 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.400 Nettie was a gangster and a rapist. But they are 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:33.640 also partners in crime, murderers and drug traffickers. They both 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.560 died in jail. Today we're going to look at their lives, 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:39.760 the corrupt world they operated in, and the damage they caused. 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:44.520 You're going to be shocked by this one. Neil Mercer, 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:45.959 Welcome to I Catch Killers. 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:47.800 Thank you for having me. Good to be here. 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:50.480 Well, I have been a copoll was a cop for 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.760 a long time, and obviously I knew of Roger Rogerson 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.720 and Nettie Smith and all the corruption and the world 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:58.680 that they lived in, and I thought they knew most 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.200 of it. But I've been reading your book, The Kingping 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.360 and the Crooked Cop, and I've got to say the 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.080 depth of it is quite remarkable. They were so brazen. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:09.760 Well, thank you for that, but yeah, you're right, they 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:14.520 were so brazen, and you know, when I started researching it, 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:18.799 I thought I pretty much knew Roger's story. But then 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.160 I delve deeper and deeper, particularly going back into the seventies, 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:25.720 and there was stuff that just look. I was amazed 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:27.800 at some of the things that came out and the 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:33.639 Roger's manipulation of the system, of his fellow cops, of judges, 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.280 of courts, of all that sort of thing, and also 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:42.320 his amazingly close relationship with Ned. I mean, you listen 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.639 to some of the intercepted phone calls from say the 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.280 early eighties, and it's like Ned and here in the 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:53.160 armhold up squad together, or you know, in the cops together. 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:54.519 It's extraordinary. 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:56.359 They are literally partners in crime. 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.240 They were, I mean, just talking about those intercepts did 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:02.239 phone calls, I think they were nine. In eighty three, 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.480 the AFP, the Federal police had taps on Ned's phone 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.240 and Ned's phoning Darlinghurst Police station, where Roger is then stationed, 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.960 and he's saying, oh, I've got five hundred gold coins. 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.880 Can you find out if they've been nicked? And Roger says, oh, no, 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.680 no problem, goes away. He calls the property office or whatever, 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.280 it is, and subsequent conversation with Ned, No, there's no 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.400 record of these coins being stolen, and so you know, 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.000 Ned's trying to figure out how he can fence these 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.880 five hundred gold coins and he's enlisting Roger's help to 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:37.200 make sure that, you know, maybe they can't be traced 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.280 and all that sort of stuff. And you know, another 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.880 phone call, same time, there's Ned on the phone to 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.000 Roger and another detective. Do you want me to bring 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:48.800 the ten? Do you want me to bring the ten? 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.440 We can whack it up three ways, and the cops, 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.040 the cops obviously going oh no, don't. Don't sort of 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.840 say that over the phone mate, you know, and it 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.920 doesn't need much imagination Gary to to know what Ned's 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:03.800 talking about, bring the ten and whack it up three ways, 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:04.840 talking about ten grand. 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:07.920 It's always funny when you're listening to people on the 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.280 phone intercepts and whether it's cops, crooks or whoever, and 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.680 everyone's assuming the phone's off, so they just tend. 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.720 To talk a bit quiet. I love it when they say, look, 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.520 we can't talk over the phone, but blah blah blah, 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:22.880 blah blah blah, and they go on and on and on, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:24.840 but I don't want to say too much over the phone, 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.960 and then they do exactly that. But you know, one 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.840 of the interesting things about those telephone intercepts, this is 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.760 nine in eighty three. Nothing happened. Roger was not disciplined. 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:40.680 The new South Wales police hierarchy was told about them 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.520 and did well. Bugger all. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.760 That's what I found the remarkable, how brazen it is. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:50.560 But just breaking down first that relationship between Roger and Ned. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.120 Then I'm talking here in the general sense. I was 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.640 taught when I came into policing, and it was certainly 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:01.160 tightened the relationship between detectives and informats. And when I 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.800 was a young cop, it was nothing. Whether you're doing 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:05.880 I'm going to go see an informant at the pub 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.280 and you'd go out with an older detective and you 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.240 meet some colorful character and you'd sit there and have 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:15.119 a couple of beers and information. It was so loose, 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:17.719 It really was loose. It was virtually you put in 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.360 your duty book seeing an informant. You didn't have to 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.000 put the name, you didn't have to say what it 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:25.080 was about. And that was the level of accountability. Thankfully, 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.080 that has changed to the point where if you have 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.640 any communication with a registered source, you need to document 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:33.240 the full nature of the conversation, the person, the time, 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.919 the location, that type of thing. We needed that didn't 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:38.080 we It was obvious. 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:41.120 Most certainly needed that. And I think it's probably that 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:45.160 tightening up is probably due in part to the relationship 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.560 between Roger and NED, because you know, it's exactly that 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.320 he would disappear from Roger would disappear from the armed 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.120 hold up squad. Nobody knew where he was. He was 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.400 off seeing an informant. Well, it could have been anybody. 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:00.719 It was off a Ned. There were lunches, there were 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:05.120 more than a few beers, and he I guess his 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.320 superiors thought that was all okay because that's the way 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.239 it had always been done. But this relationship with Ned 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:16.760 became much closer and closer and closer, until you know, 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.040 they I wouldn't say they were great friends, but they 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.360 were close, and it was you scratch my back, I'll 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:27.000 scratch you all back, and money changed hands. And you 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:33.240 know there was no supervision of that police officer informant relationship. 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.800 I mean, you know, he got away with whatever he 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.960 wanted to. Well, they got away with murder got away 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:39.400 with a lot. 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.960 The other thing about the relationships with informants, and this 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:44.760 is something that was drummed in the me and I 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.840 hopefully pass that on to others, that the flow of 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.920 information is one way, and it's difficult because I've had 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.560 a lot of informants in my career and they can 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.400 be charismatic people, and you've really got to hold tight 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:00.760 on your moral compass and make sure the exchange of 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.839 information goes one way. They give you information, you're not 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.120 feeding them information. But it looks like all those barriers 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.720 were blurred in the relationship between Ned and Roger. 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.800 I think that's right. I mean, and I understand that 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.120 that problem. I understand why cops would have that difficult thing, 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.000 because the informant wants something in return. You know, they're 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.720 not doing it for altruistic reasons. They want maybe you know, 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.280 a financial reward or you know this better than me. 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:33.560 But Roger, well, he's always he always maintained he's no 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.120 longer with us, obviously, but he always maintained that Ned 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.640 was his informant, one of his best informants. But it's 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:44.360 clear that money was changing hands. And just as I said, 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.400 with the five hundred gold coins. You know, I think 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:52.200 Ned's words were, I've got something we can make an 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:57.160 earn on. And I mean, you know that's we're pretty blatant, 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.200 make an urn on. What does that mean? Well, make 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.840 a quid five hundred gold coins. Let's see if we 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:03.960 can get rid of them somewhere. 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.080 And I think it was even there was a passage 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.760 in there divvy it up three ways or whatever. 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.360 You know, and that I think that was a separate thing. 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:17.320 That money was to be paid by Ned to Roger 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:23.080 and another detective on behalf of another reasonably minor criminal, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.760 Harvey Jones, And yeah, shall I bring the ten we 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:28.840 can and whack it up three ways? And there are 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.480 other conversations where they'd go they'd been out for drinks 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.560 the night before, and you're alluding to this where you know, 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:38.520 you do take informance to the pub and you do 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.240 have a couple of beers. But they were there were 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.240 some intercepted phone calls where Ned's saying, oh, you know, 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.040 I drank you under the table last night. Mate, Oh no, no, 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.240 I did you like a dinner? And Ned says, I'll 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:54.960 give that, give you that four hundred that I borrowed 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.200 off you to the detective and the detective and then 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.079 they say, yeah, yeah, I'll you know, no rush, you 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.800 can bring the four hundred whenever. And Ned says something 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.360 like it makes a bit of a change, doesn't it. 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.280 You know, you're usually taking it off me now, I 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.319 mean it is, so you know, they're usually taking money 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.960 off Ned or protecting him for whatever he'd done or 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:24.280 was accused of doing. It was latent, and I guess 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.800 it wasn't just Roger, but I think Roger was the 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.240 epitome of the post. Here was the poster boy, and 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.040 you know, you look at him and he was at 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.840 one stage such a good detective in homicide or the 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.200 fore Runner homicide and then in the armhold up squad. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.240 But he he's seriously, seriously, as we all now know, 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:47.000 ran very much off the rails. 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.719 I suppose when we're talking about those type of conversations 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.760 that were captured on listening devices or telephone intercepts, it's 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.880 not with the benefit of hindsight we're putting the puzzles together. 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.480 It's fairly obvious what was going on, but there didn't 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.439 seem to be mappetite for it. Before we really break 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.320 down the rise the crimes and the fall of both 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:11.240 Roger and Neddie. Let's find out a little bit about you. So, Neil, 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:14.559 I know you've been around a long time, like I have. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:20.160 Been around, I guess. Look, I started my journalistic career 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.959 in nineteen seventy two, which makes me officially a dinosaur. 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.240 But I didn't really start reporting on crime until around 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:31.679 nineteen eighty one, and that my first experience was the 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:35.560 shooting of Warren land Francie. Okay, prior to that, i'd 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:38.800 done I worked in the old Parliament House in Cambridge. 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:41.480 I'd covered the Sydney City Council, so I hadn't done 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.440 any crime reporting. And I fell into it pretty much accidentally, 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:49.600 not by design, And I went round when Land Franchie 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:52.600 was shot in nineteen eighty one by Roger in the 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:56.200 Lane Way. A week or so later, I went round 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:59.160 to see Warren lan Franchi's dad, Keith, and you deviewed him. 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.360 And that was the first time I'd ever done a 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:02.400 crime story. Really. 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:04.200 Okay, yeah, well you jumped into the DP. 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.160 As I later discovered, I'd got in it, as you say, 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.040 at the deep end, because a year or so after that, 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.079 I interviewed Roger for the very first time. That was 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.679 nineteen eighty two, and then I started interviewing people around 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:21.120 King's Cross and getting to know you know in later 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:25.239 years Abe Saffron and so yeah, I came in completely 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:28.480 unknowing at a level that I just did not understand 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.040 in nineteen eighty one eighty two, I had no idea 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:31.960 what I was getting into. 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:35.600 Well, it comes out in the book that yeah, you 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.360 understood that environment. And I have an idea of the 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.520 environment having been a police officer, and yeah, you get 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.160 what it was about, and little nuances and just the 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.800 way things work. Let's have you described Roger Rogerson for us? 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:51.480 How would you describe him as a person. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.160 When I the very first day I met Roger, it 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:56.880 was just up from Darlinghurst Police Station and it was 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.160 the first interview he'd done on the record since he 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.600 shot Land Franchi the year before. We went to a 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.319 coffee shop in Oxford Street, just near Taylor Square and 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:12.199 Sydney and all I remember, or the thing I remember 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.840 the most, is he had these piercing blue eyes and 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.280 I'm scribbling notes, so I'm looking down a lot, but 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.520 every time I looked up, he was just staring at 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:26.320 me and intently. That's what I remember about Roger. I 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.840 wrote the story for the Herald. He phoned me the 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.320 next day. He liked it because I'd been fair. He said, 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.160 you've given me a fair go. If there's anything I 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.680 can ever do to help, give me a call. He 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:42.320 was good company. He enjoyed a beer. He had a 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:46.200 terrific memory. He knew so many crooks and other people. 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:50.520 He could be charming. He'd walk little old ladies across 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:54.640 the road. He'd help out neighbors cleaning their gutters. I mean, 0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:00.800 he's this fascinating personality because there's all the good things 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.480 he did. But at the same time, we know he 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:08.400 had that cold, calculating, manipulative streak. I didn't really see 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.360 a lot of that, but it became evident in later 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.800 years when he was charged with, say, the attempted murder 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.559 of Michael Drury. But yeah, Roger was If you met 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.760 him in the pub, he'd be terrific company. If you 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.560 introduced him to friends, he'd be hello, how are you going, 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.440 good to meet you? What do you do? He'd be 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:28.000 interested in people. He wasn't a enigma. I think, in 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:28.440 a lot. 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.840 Of ways, certainly a complex character because I know a 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:33.440 lot of people work with a lot of people that 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:38.000 worked with Roger, and there's a consistency that comes through that. 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.440 He was always charming, He was charismatic, he was a 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:43.920 big personality. He was fun to be with. But looking 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:46.880 at what we know about Roger now, it's almost like 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:48.560 you're looking at that. Is that just part of his 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.160 facade to manipulate people and control people? 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.080 Look, it could be. It's hard to know. I guess 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.760 you'd have to be a psychiatrist or a psychologist to 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.559 start figuring that out. And some people say, oh, he 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.160 was a side a path or a sociopath. That's that's 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.760 not my bag. But you look, I think people went 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:11.000 into court to give character evidence for him. He did 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:17.080 things for neighbors and so on without being asked whether 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.120 it's part of a facade, but that he was doing 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.280 those things long before he gets into trouble. You know, 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:28.520 I've struggled to work him out. What I did find 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.720 is that the more I looked, the more it seemed 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:37.960 to be he had this ability to manipulate people. I 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:40.200 don't know. I've asked myself was I manipulated? 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:40.760 You know? 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.760 As a reporter, I don't think so. I always knew 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.960 who Roger was because I came in at that level 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.240 of the land Franchi shooting. When the land Franchi family said, 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.400 you know, Roger's murdered him, Keith said, he's murdered my son. 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.800 So I was never under any illusions about Roger. But yeah, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.640 he whether it was part of the facade. Look, I 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.720 don't know that we'll ever know. He was, as you say, 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:10.440 a born leader, courageous, all that stuff, and I think 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.880 in the end, Gary, I think it was really ego 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.320 and power that drove him. I'm not even sure he 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.000 was driven by money. I think he was driven by 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:25.080 the fact that I know Lenny McPherson. I've got him 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.360 as an informant. I've got this informant I know everybody 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:28.600 in the. 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.200 Underworld, classic Prince of the City. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:34.280 He's the Prince of the city, that's right. And his superiors, 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:37.640 some of whom he's worked with closely as a junior. 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.720 By now, a lot of them are way up high 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:44.680 in the CIP and he's a golden boy and they 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:49.400 overlook I'm assuming a lot of his foibles. But yeah, 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:50.640 Prince of the City he was. 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.040 It's remarkable the influence he had as a detective sergeant. 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.800 My career started just as his career finished. But I 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.720 was in the toll up squad probably five years after 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.640 he finished. I remember being in the witness box and 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.040 this is the line of questioning. I'm a young, fresh 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.840 faced detective in the witness box. So you're in the 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.920 stick ups. A. Yes, so you load people, you verbal people, 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.840 you bash people, of which I say, you're the tough guys, 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.640 aren't you. And Roger Rogerson's your hero, isn't he. I'n't 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.520 been asked questions about Roger Rogerson in the witness box 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:26.720 about the matter that's got nothing to do with him, 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.520 five years after he's left. And that's that power, that 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.240 informal power that he had, the influence. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.920 He did, He certainly had influence way beyond his rank 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.800 of detective sergeant. I mean, he's a senior investigator, but 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:43.360 you know, he had influence with the head of the CIB, 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.400 you know, up to assistant commissioners, if not commissioner level, 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.920 because they all knew him and they knew he was 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:56.720 very effective. Yeah. I mean, Roger, I guess, was the 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:01.720 poster boy, as you said, for that hard nosed front 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.359 line detective in the armed hold up Squad in the 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.560 seventies and eighties. Having said that, I think we do 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:10.560 need to remember, and I'm not diminishing his faults or 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.720 what he did wrong. The sixties and seventies in particular, 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:17.200 there were a lot of armed robberies. There were a 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:21.000 lot of very bad men or desperate men running around 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.520 with shotguns, sticking those guns in the faces of young 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:29.040 bank tellers and sometimes shooting them. And the modus operandi, 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.760 it seems to me, looking back now of the armed 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.520 hold up Squad was to meet force with force, and 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.959 that's evident in a couple of the shootings that Roger 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.720 was part of. You know, the suspected armed robbers were 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.440 surrounded with overwhelming force. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:48.040 And I'm glad you mentioned that, Neil, because I try 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:50.240 to explain it to people now because it's almost like 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.000 a time gone by. But when I was a young 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.760 detective in the eighties, armed hold ups were particularly violent. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.280 They were frequent. It was a day wouldn't go by 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.120 where a bank wasn't robbed or an armor guard van hit, 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.840 and people would come in with shotguns, and people would 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.119 let those shotguns off and shoot innocent people. And the 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.720 trauma that was passed on to the people that witnessed. 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:17.560 It was extreme. It was force meeting force in the 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.600 armholed up squad, not condaining. And this is where policing 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.520 can be tricky, that you've got to hold a strong 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.960 moral compass. Yeah you can play hard, but if you 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:30.000 slip that little bit then it starts to set slippery slope. 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:34.000 Hopefully not to the extent of Roger. But yeah, it 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.800 was a different time and different rules and it wasn't 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.800 just the police, the courts. We could have unsworn statements 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.720 in the dock. I look back at that and think 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:47.080 how ludicrous that two detectives could go into a room 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.720 with a suspect and come out and say he refused 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.240 to sign the interview, but this is what he said 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.399 and give evidence in court and a lot of times 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:56.640 that evidence was accepted. 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:59.920 It was accepted pretty much all the time by judges, 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.600 magistrates in Sydney, in New South Wales and I suspect 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:08.359 around Australia in a particular era and police, and you 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.480 would know this from talking to the old detectives. They 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.680 would say, oh, look, we know that say Neil did 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.080 the armed robbery, but we're a bit shy on some evidence. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.520 We'll just give it a helping hand by saying he 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.119 did a record of interview that's unsigned. Well, the record 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.960 of interview was typed up by the detectives. And I've 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:30.120 read a lot of those and some of them are well, look, 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.719 I shouldn't say they're humorous, but after a while, and 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.600 you read a lot of them unsigned where they are 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:39.840 the krim? This is a hardened crim. He's found in 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:43.159 his bedroom early in the morning with allegedly with some money, 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.480 although only about one thousand out of the fifteen thousand 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:50.119 that he nicked. And he says something like, oh, well, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.080 now that you've found the money, what can I say? 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.720 I was in it? You got me, and this is 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:57.040 a bloke. 0:19:57.640 --> 0:19:59.120 It wasn't really creative. 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.080 Fort No, it wasn't. 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.159 I mean, you're too good for me. Detect you. 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.920 I was in it, but I didn't fire the shots. 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.600 And these are this is literally the words that are 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:11.040 coming out. 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:12.920 I'll tell you, but I'm not signing the statement. 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:15.080 Yeah, I'm happy to tell you everything, but I will 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:17.960 not sign because that's the code by which I have lived. 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:22.719 I mean, really, and as you say, Gary, the cops 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.000 get all the blame for this and okay, fair enough, 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:31.840 but there was a whole system of solicitors, barristers, magistrates 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.840 and judges who went along with it exactly. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.120 And then they're smart people. We could have scene through 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.040 what was going on. And yeah it's again and I 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.520 treed the careful path here because we can't condone it, 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.040 no what's happened. But police are the ones that the 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.320 finger gets pointed at, and that's fair. You know, they 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.000 get the que los with they do good work and 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.560 you know they're the ones that cop it when it's bad. 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.919 So yeah, it's it was an interesting time. And I 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.440 just want to put on record here because I'm sitting 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.600 here going to talk about corruption in the police force 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:03.919 in a deep dive and people might go, well, what 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.280 a hypocrite you are, Gary, you're sitting here. Why are 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:09.120 you sitting here because I was charge of an offence. 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.920 I just want to say, recording the conversation on the 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:17.320 telephone I'm having with a suspect is yeah, nothing I'm 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:18.960 ashamed of. So I just want to put that up 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:20.399 front now. I don't want to sit here like that. 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:22.600 I think you're dead right, and I think the New 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.879 South Wales Police Force in having ignored a lot of 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:29.399 the stuff that Rogerson and others did. I think the 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:31.679 New South Wales Police Force has now got a reputation 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:35.160 of sometimes eating its own. I call it eating their own. 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:40.000 They turn on people for things that should be like, oh, okay, 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:42.600