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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, said,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. The world

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Speaker 1: of crime is a murky place, but when the crooked

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Speaker 1: cops joined forces with the criminals, politicians and judicial officers,

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Speaker 1: things can get out of hand. That's exactly what happened

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Speaker 1: in a particular shameful time in New South Wales's history.

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Speaker 1: We're talking here about the seventies and eighties in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: where money, drugs and violence corrupted our streets. We're going

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Speaker 1: to get an extraordinary insight into this world for award

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Speaker 1: winning journalist Neil Mercer. He's going to give us a

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Speaker 1: definitive inside story of Nettie Smith and Roger Rogerson, which

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Speaker 1: he also wrote a book about called The Kingping and

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Speaker 1: the Crooked Cop. Rogerson at one stage was a respected cop.

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Speaker 1: Nettie was a gangster and a rapist. But they are

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Speaker 1: also partners in crime, murderers and drug traffickers. They both

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Speaker 1: died in jail. Today we're going to look at their lives,

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Speaker 1: the corrupt world they operated in, and the damage they caused.

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Speaker 1: You're going to be shocked by this one. Neil Mercer,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Good to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I have been a copoll was a cop for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and obviously I knew of Roger Rogerson

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Speaker 1: and Nettie Smith and all the corruption and the world

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Speaker 1: that they lived in, and I thought they knew most

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Speaker 1: of it. But I've been reading your book, The Kingping

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Speaker 1: and the Crooked Cop, and I've got to say the

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Speaker 1: depth of it is quite remarkable. They were so brazen.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for that, but yeah, you're right, they

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Speaker 2: were so brazen, and you know, when I started researching it,

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Speaker 2: I thought I pretty much knew Roger's story. But then

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Speaker 2: I delve deeper and deeper, particularly going back into the seventies,

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Speaker 2: and there was stuff that just look. I was amazed

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Speaker 2: at some of the things that came out and the

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Speaker 2: Roger's manipulation of the system, of his fellow cops, of judges,

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Speaker 2: of courts, of all that sort of thing, and also

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Speaker 2: his amazingly close relationship with Ned. I mean, you listen

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Speaker 2: to some of the intercepted phone calls from say the

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Speaker 2: early eighties, and it's like Ned and here in the

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Speaker 2: armhold up squad together, or you know, in the cops together.

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Speaker 2: It's extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: They are literally partners in crime.

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Speaker 2: They were, I mean, just talking about those intercepts did

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Speaker 2: phone calls, I think they were nine. In eighty three,

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Speaker 2: the AFP, the Federal police had taps on Ned's phone

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Speaker 2: and Ned's phoning Darlinghurst Police station, where Roger is then stationed,

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Speaker 2: and he's saying, oh, I've got five hundred gold coins.

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Speaker 2: Can you find out if they've been nicked? And Roger says, oh, no,

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Speaker 2: no problem, goes away. He calls the property office or whatever,

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Speaker 2: it is, and subsequent conversation with Ned, No, there's no

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Speaker 2: record of these coins being stolen, and so you know,

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Speaker 2: Ned's trying to figure out how he can fence these

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Speaker 2: five hundred gold coins and he's enlisting Roger's help to

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Speaker 2: make sure that, you know, maybe they can't be traced

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Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff. And you know, another

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Speaker 2: phone call, same time, there's Ned on the phone to

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Speaker 2: Roger and another detective. Do you want me to bring

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Speaker 2: the ten? Do you want me to bring the ten?

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Speaker 2: We can whack it up three ways, and the cops,

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Speaker 2: the cops obviously going oh no, don't. Don't sort of

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Speaker 2: say that over the phone mate, you know, and it

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Speaker 2: doesn't need much imagination Gary to to know what Ned's

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Speaker 2: talking about, bring the ten and whack it up three ways,

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Speaker 2: talking about ten grand.

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Speaker 1: It's always funny when you're listening to people on the

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Speaker 1: phone intercepts and whether it's cops, crooks or whoever, and

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Speaker 1: everyone's assuming the phone's off, so they just tend.

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Speaker 2: To talk a bit quiet. I love it when they say, look,

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Speaker 2: we can't talk over the phone, but blah blah blah,

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and they go on and on and on,

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Speaker 2: but I don't want to say too much over the phone,

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Speaker 2: and then they do exactly that. But you know, one

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Speaker 2: of the interesting things about those telephone intercepts, this is

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Speaker 2: nine in eighty three. Nothing happened. Roger was not disciplined.

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Speaker 2: The new South Wales police hierarchy was told about them

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Speaker 2: and did well. Bugger all.

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Speaker 1: That's what I found the remarkable, how brazen it is.

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Speaker 1: But just breaking down first that relationship between Roger and Ned.

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Speaker 1: Then I'm talking here in the general sense. I was

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Speaker 1: taught when I came into policing, and it was certainly

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Speaker 1: tightened the relationship between detectives and informats. And when I

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Speaker 1: was a young cop, it was nothing. Whether you're doing

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go see an informant at the pub

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Speaker 1: and you'd go out with an older detective and you

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Speaker 1: meet some colorful character and you'd sit there and have

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Speaker 1: a couple of beers and information. It was so loose,

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Speaker 1: It really was loose. It was virtually you put in

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Speaker 1: your duty book seeing an informant. You didn't have to

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Speaker 1: put the name, you didn't have to say what it

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Speaker 1: was about. And that was the level of accountability. Thankfully,

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Speaker 1: that has changed to the point where if you have

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Speaker 1: any communication with a registered source, you need to document

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Speaker 1: the full nature of the conversation, the person, the time,

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Speaker 1: the location, that type of thing. We needed that didn't

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Speaker 1: we It was obvious.

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Speaker 2: Most certainly needed that. And I think it's probably that

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Speaker 2: tightening up is probably due in part to the relationship

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Speaker 2: between Roger and NED, because you know, it's exactly that

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Speaker 2: he would disappear from Roger would disappear from the armed

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Speaker 2: hold up squad. Nobody knew where he was. He was

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Speaker 2: off seeing an informant. Well, it could have been anybody.

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Speaker 2: It was off a Ned. There were lunches, there were

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Speaker 2: more than a few beers, and he I guess his

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Speaker 2: superiors thought that was all okay because that's the way

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Speaker 2: it had always been done. But this relationship with Ned

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Speaker 2: became much closer and closer and closer, until you know,

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Speaker 2: they I wouldn't say they were great friends, but they

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Speaker 2: were close, and it was you scratch my back, I'll

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Speaker 2: scratch you all back, and money changed hands. And you

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Speaker 2: know there was no supervision of that police officer informant relationship.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, he got away with whatever he

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Speaker 2: wanted to. Well, they got away with murder got away

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Speaker 2: with a lot.

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Speaker 1: The other thing about the relationships with informants, and this

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Speaker 1: is something that was drummed in the me and I

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Speaker 1: hopefully pass that on to others, that the flow of

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Speaker 1: information is one way, and it's difficult because I've had

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Speaker 1: a lot of informants in my career and they can

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Speaker 1: be charismatic people, and you've really got to hold tight

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Speaker 1: on your moral compass and make sure the exchange of

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Speaker 1: information goes one way. They give you information, you're not

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Speaker 1: feeding them information. But it looks like all those barriers

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Speaker 1: were blurred in the relationship between Ned and Roger.

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Speaker 2: I think that's right. I mean, and I understand that

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Speaker 2: that problem. I understand why cops would have that difficult thing,

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Speaker 2: because the informant wants something in return. You know, they're

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Speaker 2: not doing it for altruistic reasons. They want maybe you know,

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Speaker 2: a financial reward or you know this better than me.

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Speaker 2: But Roger, well, he's always he always maintained he's no

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Speaker 2: longer with us, obviously, but he always maintained that Ned

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Speaker 2: was his informant, one of his best informants. But it's

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Speaker 2: clear that money was changing hands. And just as I said,

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Speaker 2: with the five hundred gold coins. You know, I think

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Speaker 2: Ned's words were, I've got something we can make an

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Speaker 2: earn on. And I mean, you know that's we're pretty blatant,

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Speaker 2: make an urn on. What does that mean? Well, make

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Speaker 2: a quid five hundred gold coins. Let's see if we

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Speaker 2: can get rid of them somewhere.

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Speaker 1: And I think it was even there was a passage

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Speaker 1: in there divvy it up three ways or whatever.

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Speaker 2: You know, and that I think that was a separate thing.

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Speaker 2: That money was to be paid by Ned to Roger

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Speaker 2: and another detective on behalf of another reasonably minor criminal,

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Speaker 2: Harvey Jones, And yeah, shall I bring the ten we

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Speaker 2: can and whack it up three ways? And there are

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Speaker 2: other conversations where they'd go they'd been out for drinks

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Speaker 2: the night before, and you're alluding to this where you know,

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Speaker 2: you do take informance to the pub and you do

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Speaker 2: have a couple of beers. But they were there were

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Speaker 2: some intercepted phone calls where Ned's saying, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: I drank you under the table last night. Mate, Oh no, no,

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Speaker 2: I did you like a dinner? And Ned says, I'll

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Speaker 2: give that, give you that four hundred that I borrowed

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Speaker 2: off you to the detective and the detective and then

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Speaker 2: they say, yeah, yeah, I'll you know, no rush, you

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Speaker 2: can bring the four hundred whenever. And Ned says something

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Speaker 2: like it makes a bit of a change, doesn't it.

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Speaker 2: You know, you're usually taking it off me now, I

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Speaker 2: mean it is, so you know, they're usually taking money

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Speaker 2: off Ned or protecting him for whatever he'd done or

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Speaker 2: was accused of doing. It was latent, and I guess

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Speaker 2: it wasn't just Roger, but I think Roger was the

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Speaker 2: epitome of the post. Here was the poster boy, and

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Speaker 2: you know, you look at him and he was at

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Speaker 2: one stage such a good detective in homicide or the

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Speaker 2: fore Runner homicide and then in the armhold up squad.

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Speaker 2: But he he's seriously, seriously, as we all now know,

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Speaker 2: ran very much off the rails.

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Speaker 1: I suppose when we're talking about those type of conversations

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Speaker 1: that were captured on listening devices or telephone intercepts, it's

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Speaker 1: not with the benefit of hindsight we're putting the puzzles together.

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Speaker 1: It's fairly obvious what was going on, but there didn't

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Speaker 1: seem to be mappetite for it. Before we really break

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Speaker 1: down the rise the crimes and the fall of both

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Speaker 1: Roger and Neddie. Let's find out a little bit about you. So, Neil,

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Speaker 1: I know you've been around a long time, like I have.

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Speaker 2: Been around, I guess. Look, I started my journalistic career

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy two, which makes me officially a dinosaur.

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Speaker 2: But I didn't really start reporting on crime until around

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one, and that my first experience was the

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Speaker 2: shooting of Warren land Francie. Okay, prior to that, i'd

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Speaker 2: done I worked in the old Parliament House in Cambridge.

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Speaker 2: I'd covered the Sydney City Council, so I hadn't done

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Speaker 2: any crime reporting. And I fell into it pretty much accidentally,

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Speaker 2: not by design, And I went round when Land Franchie

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Speaker 2: was shot in nineteen eighty one by Roger in the

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Speaker 2: Lane Way. A week or so later, I went round

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Speaker 2: to see Warren lan Franchi's dad, Keith, and you deviewed him.

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Speaker 2: And that was the first time I'd ever done a

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Speaker 2: crime story. Really.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well you jumped into the DP.

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Speaker 2: As I later discovered, I'd got in it, as you say,

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Speaker 2: at the deep end, because a year or so after that,

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Speaker 2: I interviewed Roger for the very first time. That was

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, and then I started interviewing people around

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Speaker 2: King's Cross and getting to know you know in later

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Speaker 2: years Abe Saffron and so yeah, I came in completely

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Speaker 2: unknowing at a level that I just did not understand

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty one eighty two, I had no idea

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Speaker 2: what I was getting into.

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Speaker 1: Well, it comes out in the book that yeah, you

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Speaker 1: understood that environment. And I have an idea of the

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Speaker 1: environment having been a police officer, and yeah, you get

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Speaker 1: what it was about, and little nuances and just the

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Speaker 1: way things work. Let's have you described Roger Rogerson for us?

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Speaker 1: How would you describe him as a person.

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Speaker 2: When I the very first day I met Roger, it

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Speaker 2: was just up from Darlinghurst Police Station and it was

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Speaker 2: the first interview he'd done on the record since he

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Speaker 2: shot Land Franchi the year before. We went to a

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Speaker 2: coffee shop in Oxford Street, just near Taylor Square and

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Speaker 2: Sydney and all I remember, or the thing I remember

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Speaker 2: the most, is he had these piercing blue eyes and

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Speaker 2: I'm scribbling notes, so I'm looking down a lot, but

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Speaker 2: every time I looked up, he was just staring at

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Speaker 2: me and intently. That's what I remember about Roger. I

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Speaker 2: wrote the story for the Herald. He phoned me the

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Speaker 2: next day. He liked it because I'd been fair. He said,

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Speaker 2: you've given me a fair go. If there's anything I

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Speaker 2: can ever do to help, give me a call. He

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Speaker 2: was good company. He enjoyed a beer. He had a

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Speaker 2: terrific memory. He knew so many crooks and other people.

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Speaker 2: He could be charming. He'd walk little old ladies across

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Speaker 2: the road. He'd help out neighbors cleaning their gutters. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's this fascinating personality because there's all the good things

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Speaker 2: he did. But at the same time, we know he

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Speaker 2: had that cold, calculating, manipulative streak. I didn't really see

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Speaker 2: a lot of that, but it became evident in later

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Speaker 2: years when he was charged with, say, the attempted murder

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Speaker 2: of Michael Drury. But yeah, Roger was If you met

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Speaker 2: him in the pub, he'd be terrific company. If you

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Speaker 2: introduced him to friends, he'd be hello, how are you going,

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Speaker 2: good to meet you? What do you do? He'd be

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Speaker 2: interested in people. He wasn't a enigma. I think, in

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Speaker 2: a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of ways, certainly a complex character because I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people work with a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: worked with Roger, and there's a consistency that comes through that.

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Speaker 1: He was always charming, He was charismatic, he was a

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Speaker 1: big personality. He was fun to be with. But looking

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Speaker 1: at what we know about Roger now, it's almost like

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Speaker 1: you're looking at that. Is that just part of his

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Speaker 1: facade to manipulate people and control people?

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Speaker 2: Look, it could be. It's hard to know. I guess

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Speaker 2: you'd have to be a psychiatrist or a psychologist to

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Speaker 2: start figuring that out. And some people say, oh, he

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Speaker 2: was a side a path or a sociopath. That's that's

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Speaker 2: not my bag. But you look, I think people went

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Speaker 2: into court to give character evidence for him. He did

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Speaker 2: things for neighbors and so on without being asked whether

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Speaker 2: it's part of a facade, but that he was doing

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Speaker 2: those things long before he gets into trouble. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've struggled to work him out. What I did find

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Speaker 2: is that the more I looked, the more it seemed

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Speaker 2: to be he had this ability to manipulate people. I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I've asked myself was I manipulated?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: As a reporter, I don't think so. I always knew

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Speaker 2: who Roger was because I came in at that level

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Speaker 2: of the land Franchi shooting. When the land Franchi family said,

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Speaker 2: you know, Roger's murdered him, Keith said, he's murdered my son.

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Speaker 2: So I was never under any illusions about Roger. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: he whether it was part of the facade. Look, I

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Speaker 2: don't know that we'll ever know. He was, as you say,

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Speaker 2: a born leader, courageous, all that stuff, and I think

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Speaker 2: in the end, Gary, I think it was really ego

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Speaker 2: and power that drove him. I'm not even sure he

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Speaker 2: was driven by money. I think he was driven by

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Speaker 2: the fact that I know Lenny McPherson. I've got him

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Speaker 2: as an informant. I've got this informant I know everybody

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Speaker 2: in the.

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Speaker 1: Underworld, classic Prince of the City.

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Speaker 2: He's the Prince of the city, that's right. And his superiors,

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Speaker 2: some of whom he's worked with closely as a junior.

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Speaker 2: By now, a lot of them are way up high

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Speaker 2: in the CIP and he's a golden boy and they

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Speaker 2: overlook I'm assuming a lot of his foibles. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: Prince of the City he was.

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Speaker 1: It's remarkable the influence he had as a detective sergeant.

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Speaker 1: My career started just as his career finished. But I

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Speaker 1: was in the toll up squad probably five years after

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Speaker 1: he finished. I remember being in the witness box and

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Speaker 1: this is the line of questioning. I'm a young, fresh

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Speaker 1: faced detective in the witness box. So you're in the

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Speaker 1: stick ups. A. Yes, so you load people, you verbal people,

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Speaker 1: you bash people, of which I say, you're the tough guys,

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Speaker 1: aren't you. And Roger Rogerson's your hero, isn't he. I'n't

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Speaker 1: been asked questions about Roger Rogerson in the witness box

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Speaker 1: about the matter that's got nothing to do with him,

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Speaker 1: five years after he's left. And that's that power, that

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Speaker 1: informal power that he had, the influence.

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Speaker 2: He did, He certainly had influence way beyond his rank

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Speaker 2: of detective sergeant. I mean, he's a senior investigator, but

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Speaker 2: you know, he had influence with the head of the CIB,

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Speaker 2: you know, up to assistant commissioners, if not commissioner level,

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Speaker 2: because they all knew him and they knew he was

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Speaker 2: very effective. Yeah. I mean, Roger, I guess, was the

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Speaker 2: poster boy, as you said, for that hard nosed front

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Speaker 2: line detective in the armed hold up Squad in the

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Speaker 2: seventies and eighties. Having said that, I think we do

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Speaker 2: need to remember, and I'm not diminishing his faults or

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Speaker 2: what he did wrong. The sixties and seventies in particular,

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Speaker 2: there were a lot of armed robberies. There were a

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Speaker 2: lot of very bad men or desperate men running around

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Speaker 2: with shotguns, sticking those guns in the faces of young

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Speaker 2: bank tellers and sometimes shooting them. And the modus operandi,

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Speaker 2: it seems to me, looking back now of the armed

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Speaker 2: hold up Squad was to meet force with force, and

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Speaker 2: that's evident in a couple of the shootings that Roger

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Speaker 2: was part of. You know, the suspected armed robbers were

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Speaker 2: surrounded with overwhelming force.

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Speaker 1: And I'm glad you mentioned that, Neil, because I try

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Speaker 1: to explain it to people now because it's almost like

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Speaker 1: a time gone by. But when I was a young

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Speaker 1: detective in the eighties, armed hold ups were particularly violent.

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Speaker 1: They were frequent. It was a day wouldn't go by

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Speaker 1: where a bank wasn't robbed or an armor guard van hit,

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Speaker 1: and people would come in with shotguns, and people would

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Speaker 1: let those shotguns off and shoot innocent people. And the

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Speaker 1: trauma that was passed on to the people that witnessed.

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Speaker 1: It was extreme. It was force meeting force in the

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Speaker 1: armholed up squad, not condaining. And this is where policing

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Speaker 1: can be tricky, that you've got to hold a strong

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Speaker 1: moral compass. Yeah you can play hard, but if you

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Speaker 1: slip that little bit then it starts to set slippery slope.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully not to the extent of Roger. But yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was a different time and different rules and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just the police, the courts. We could have unsworn statements

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Speaker 1: in the dock. I look back at that and think

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Speaker 1: how ludicrous that two detectives could go into a room

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Speaker 1: with a suspect and come out and say he refused

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Speaker 1: to sign the interview, but this is what he said

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Speaker 1: and give evidence in court and a lot of times

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Speaker 1: that evidence was accepted.

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Speaker 2: It was accepted pretty much all the time by judges,

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Speaker 2: magistrates in Sydney, in New South Wales and I suspect

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Speaker 2: around Australia in a particular era and police, and you

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Speaker 2: would know this from talking to the old detectives. They

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Speaker 2: would say, oh, look, we know that say Neil did

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Speaker 2: the armed robbery, but we're a bit shy on some evidence.

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Speaker 2: We'll just give it a helping hand by saying he

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Speaker 2: did a record of interview that's unsigned. Well, the record

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Speaker 2: of interview was typed up by the detectives. And I've

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Speaker 2: read a lot of those and some of them are well, look,

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't say they're humorous, but after a while, and

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Speaker 2: you read a lot of them unsigned where they are

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Speaker 2: the krim? This is a hardened crim. He's found in

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Speaker 2: his bedroom early in the morning with allegedly with some money,

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Speaker 2: although only about one thousand out of the fifteen thousand

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Speaker 2: that he nicked. And he says something like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: now that you've found the money, what can I say?

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Speaker 2: I was in it? You got me, and this is

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Speaker 2: a bloke.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't really creative.

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Speaker 2: Fort No, it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're too good for me. Detect you.

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Speaker 2: I was in it, but I didn't fire the shots.

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Speaker 2: And these are this is literally the words that are

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Speaker 2: coming out.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you, but I'm not signing the statement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm happy to tell you everything, but I will

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Speaker 2: not sign because that's the code by which I have lived.

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Speaker 2: I mean, really, and as you say, Gary, the cops

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Speaker 2: get all the blame for this and okay, fair enough,

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Speaker 2: but there was a whole system of solicitors, barristers, magistrates

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Speaker 2: and judges who went along with it exactly.

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Speaker 1: And then they're smart people. We could have scene through

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Speaker 1: what was going on. And yeah it's again and I

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Speaker 1: treed the careful path here because we can't condone it,

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Speaker 1: no what's happened. But police are the ones that the

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Speaker 1: finger gets pointed at, and that's fair. You know, they

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Speaker 1: get the que los with they do good work and

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Speaker 1: you know they're the ones that cop it when it's bad.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it was an interesting time. And I

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Speaker 1: just want to put on record here because I'm sitting

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Speaker 1: here going to talk about corruption in the police force

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Speaker 1: in a deep dive and people might go, well, what

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Speaker 1: a hypocrite you are, Gary, you're sitting here. Why are

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Speaker 1: you sitting here because I was charge of an offence.

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Speaker 1: I just want to say, recording the conversation on the

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Speaker 1: telephone I'm having with a suspect is yeah, nothing I'm

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Speaker 1: ashamed of. So I just want to put that up

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Speaker 1: front now. I don't want to sit here like that.

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Speaker 2: I think you're dead right, and I think the New

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Speaker 2: South Wales Police Force in having ignored a lot of

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Speaker 2: the stuff that Rogerson and others did. I think the

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Speaker 2: New South Wales Police Force has now got a reputation

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Speaker 2: of sometimes eating its own. I call it eating their own.

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Speaker 2: They turn on people for things that should be like, oh, okay,

401
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Speaker 2: you've made a mistake, but you've got thirty years service up,

402
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Speaker 2: you know. Let's you know you've made a mistake and

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Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting you did. But too often it's like out,

404
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Speaker 2: you're out. You know that a ton of bricks comes

405
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Speaker 2: down on you know, a detective sergeant or somebody, and

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Speaker 2: it seems to me it's completely unnecessary. So yeah, I

407
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Speaker 2: think it's sometimes they overreact, you know, and people bear

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Speaker 2: the front of it.

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Speaker 1: Look and I think, focus on the important things and

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Speaker 1: we won't get sidetracked. But the recent media talk about

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Speaker 1: the commissioner having bottles of gin, like what have we

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Speaker 1: got something better to focus on? Like really, like at

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Speaker 1: a commissioner, do you think that she would be concerned

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Speaker 1: about who gets the bottles of gin? Like it's something

415
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Speaker 1: it's something that's been around for a long time.

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Speaker 2: I just think that that, to me is crazy And

417
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Speaker 2: I don't know what people have got against the commissioner.

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Speaker 2: I think she's made some mistakes. But the bottle of gin.

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Speaker 2: I think that was her predecessor that started that. And

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Speaker 2: when I heard that Gary, I think I was reading

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Speaker 2: something about Roger. You know, it might have been the

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Speaker 2: attempted murder of Michael Drury And I'm going a bottle

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Speaker 2: of gin? Is this what we've come to? I mean, seriously,

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Speaker 2: this is not corruption? Well I don't think it is.

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Speaker 1: Silly. And the fact that the focus is on that,

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Speaker 1: what does this world come to? I know? But anyway,

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Speaker 1: we digress Neddie. Tell us about Neddie? What do we

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Speaker 1: know about Neddie Smith?

429
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 2: Neddie? I mean, in contrast to Roger, I think Neddie's

430
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 2: path was sort of set fairly early, pretty much from

431
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 2: his childhood. He never knew his father. It appears his

432
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: dad was a US serviceman because Ned's born late nineteen

433
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: forty four, so at the end of the Second World War,

434
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 2: doesn't know his dad. Unhappy childhood, goes to boys' homes,

435
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 2: gets into trouble fairly early, the usual sort of stuff,

436
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: you know, maybe a bit of stealing or you know,

437
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 2: reasonably minor stuff. So his path, if you like, as

438
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 2: to stink from Rogers was to me. His trajectory was

439
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 2: set from a very early age. And he you know,

440
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 2: he goes on to commit a gang rape in nineteen

441
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 2: sixty seven, and that's the first time he gets a

442
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 2: significant lagging. I think he gets seven years for that.

443
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 2: And after that, like a lot of them in those days,

444
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 2: have come out of boys' homes, they've done this horrible crime.

445
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: They meet a lot of people in jail. He sort

446
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 2: of graduates into a whole range of other things. But

447
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 2: only the time I met Ned, I think it was

448
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: the beginning of eighty seven, was just before he was

449
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 2: charged with murder. I was working at sixty Minutes, and

450
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 2: the sixty Minutes report of Mike Munroe said, look, I

451
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: Reckon need Smith might have a story to tell us,

452
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 2: something about a green light. Anyway, he says, I've arranged

453
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: lunch with Ned. So I went along with Mike Munroe.

454
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: I thought we'd go to, you know, the Iron Duke

455
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 2: Hotel in Alexandria and have a favorite one, have a

456
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 2: few schooners and a couple of pies or something. Oh no, no, no,

457
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: that's not Ned Ned's. We're going to Pruniers in Wallara,

458
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 2: which I think is now called Chiswick. This is this

459
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: is fine dining, this is star there once starts. I've

460
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 2: been there once too, with Ned starched, white tablecloths, old

461
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: fashioned waiters, blah blah blah. Anyway, Monroe and I are

462
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 2: sitting there, We've got the sixty minutes expense card, the abbex,

463
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: and it's going well. Ned was incredibly respectful. He was

464
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: almost deferential in his manner, very softly spoken, hulking sort

465
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 2: of man. He seemed probably bigger than he was, or

466
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 2: that's how I remember him. And we're having a good

467
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: lunch and we're drinking a few Crown lagers and I

468
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: can't remember what we're eating. But not long after, Mike

469
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 2: Munroe and myself sit down at Pruneer's with Ned in

470
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 2: walks another sorry in walks a former New South Wales

471
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: detective sergeant by name of Murray Riley, who has recently

472
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: got out of jail for empting to smuggle in a

473
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: whole pile of marijuana. Murray Riley knows Ned and comes

474
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: over to our table, obviously sees Mike Munroe for sixty minutes,

475
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: introductions all around. Murray goes back to his table, which

476
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 2: is full of youngish blokes, all dressed in sort of

477
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: like pastors, like it was Miami Vice, the old TV

478
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 2: series and Love for a good Picture. There loafers, no socks,

479
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: you know. So there's I think there's about four or

480
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 2: five of them sitting at their table, and from time

481
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 2: to time I sort of look around and Murray Riley,

482
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: who Ned called the Prince of Promises, he's sort of waving,

483
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 2: and I noticed they're getting really stuck into the verve.

484
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: Clicko champagne. Anyway, you know, during lunch, we say to Ned,

485
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: what do you do? How are you making a crust?

486
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 2: And he says, oh, I'm an invalid pension or I'm

487
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: doing the best I can, et cetera. The usual. I

488
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 2: go to get the bill with my sixty minutes AMEX.

489
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: It's over a thousand dollars. I think it was eleven

490
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 2: or twelve hundred, I can't remember. And I go to

491
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: Ned very respectfully and say, Ned, we can't, we can't

492
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: pay all this. Our boss will have a fit. And

493
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: he sort of looks over at Riley's table, who are

494
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: cacking themselves with laughter, and he reaches into his pocket

495
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: and I've never forgotten this. He pulls out this huge

496
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 2: what a fifty dollars, notes like he's got a big hand,

497
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: but it's just choc a block of fifties, peels off

498
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: about five hundred six hundred and says there you go. Thanks,

499
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: ned really appreciate it. And then he drives off in

500
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: a brand new Mercedes. And I'm saying to Monroe, that's

501
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: that's some bension. He's got their mate. But he was. Look,

502
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: that was the only time I met him. Really. I

503
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,719
Speaker 2: spoke to him once or twice after that, but not

504
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 2: he was just I suspect when he was you know,

505
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: with certain people, he could be very respectful, but we

506
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: know that you know, he'd been convicted of a gang rape.

507
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you've got the nature of a crime like that,

508
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: I think book and go, okay, respect a tough guy,

509
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: a gangster, he does this. That so Katie lives by.

510
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: But when you've crossed the line, when you're going in

511
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: the gang rape, it shows the type of person that

512
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: you're dealing with. There's nothing you can't dress that up.

513
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: He tried to in later years, and for the book,

514
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 2: I eventually got hold of the transcript of that case

515
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 2: that were at least the committal proceedings and the victim

516
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 2: had gone to the police the very next day with

517
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: her mum. She was examined by a government medical officer.

518
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: He gave evidence because Ned's solicitor was trying to suggest

519
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: that there was nothing untoward here. And the government medical

520
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: officer said she had bruises all over her body and

521
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 2: she had been pinned. Her arms were bruised. It was

522
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 2: consistent with her being pinned down, and he had no

523
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: doubt she had been raped. So, no matter how much

524
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: Ned tried to dress it up that she'd enjoy it violent,

525
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: it was a violent gag rate and she said the

526
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 2: victim said he was the ring leader. It never would

527
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: have happened without Ned Smith.

528
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: And yeah, Roger and that we're going to talk about

529
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: their relationship next. But that to me, and I'm thinking

530
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: from a policeman's point of view, there's certain people that

531
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: you associate with and then there's certain natures of crime.

532
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, that one's got a big mark, wouldn't trust him,

533
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: don't like him, wouldn't do a thing for him, committed

534
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: crime like that. So that just shows to me, and

535
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: this is just my thinking, how low Roger stoops to

536
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: hang out with him and spend time with him and

537
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: get involved in what they've done. When did they first meet?

538
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: At what stage? Are there careers that should have been

539
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: in opposite directions?

540
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 2: But they first meet in nineteen seventy six, Ned Smith

541
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: and a good mate of his, another armed Robert called

542
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 2: Bobby Chapman, have tried to do a robbery on a

543
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 2: payroll that was heading towards field as bakery a company,

544
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: you know, a bakery company, and the two blokes who

545
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: are picking up the cash because in those days everybody

546
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: got paid in cash, so the cash had to get

547
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: from the bank to the office, whichever office that was.

548
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 2: Ned and his mate Bobby Chapman try to Robert fail,

549
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: but shots afied, one of which just very narrowly misses

550
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: the bloke driving the car Lodgers in the part of

551
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: the car very close to his head, so he is

552
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: almost killed. This is the first time that Roger catches

553
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: up with Ned. It's not in the way it was

554
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: portrayed in Blue Murder. But Ned Smith and Bobby Chapman

555
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: are both arrested. You know, they're charged, but you know,

556
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: Bobby Chapman is accused of firing the shots, and in

557
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 2: later years Chapman says Ned dubbed me in for that.

558
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: But it's at that stage that Roger starts to develop

559
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: the relationship with Ned Smith because he can see he's

560
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 2: been in jail for a long time, he's mixing with

561
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: various criminals and he could be useful. So it's sort

562
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 2: of I guess it flourishes from there. But just to

563
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 2: give you some idea of the way, it sort of

564
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: cut both ways. I mean, this guy, Bobby Chapman, was

565
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: accused of firing the shots in that botch to get away.

566
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: When it comes to trial, Roger gets in the box.

567
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: Bear in mind, Roger has taken a statement allegedly from

568
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: Bobby Chapman in which he says, oh, yeah, I fired

569
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: the shots, but it was an accident unsigned unsigned. Yep.

570
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 2: Funny about that, because Bobby Chapman is as hard as

571
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: nails and wouldn't say boodoor goose. Anyway, there's this record

572
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: of interview Roger swears it's true, where Bobby Chapman says

573
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: I fired the shots but it was accidental. Gets to trial.

574
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: Roger send to the witness box and, much to the

575
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: dismay and amazement of all, says, I've done further investigation.

576
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: I've now found out that the shots weren't fired by

577
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: Bobby by Chapman. They are fired by a bloke called

578
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: Robert McKinnon who's an associate of Ned and Chapman. McKinnon

579
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: has disappeared, and the Crown Prosecutor is going, hang on,

580
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: You've got a statement that you took from Bobby Chapman

581
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 2: saying he fired but it was an accident, and now

582
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 2: you're telling me, which you swear is true. But on

583
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: the other hand, you've now found this guy, Robert McKinnon,

584
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: who fired the shots, and you're saying you've got that

585
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: information from an informant. Of course, Robert McKinnon can never

586
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: be found. The trial is aborted and Chapman, who's already

587
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: in jail for something else, gets a much lesser sentence

588
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 2: than he would have. It's a complete backflip and it

589
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: defies logic.

590
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: And that comes through in quite a few things, and

591
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: we'll talk about one shortly where the consequences were someone

592
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: innocent person ended up dead. But I've heard people talk

593
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: about Roger people with I respect and said he was

594
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: brilliant in the witness box, that charisma he came across, honest,

595
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: he brilliant, memory presented well to the jury, charm people,

596
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: that type of thing. But what front has he got

597
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: to do do that? I'm just as you were telling

598
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: that story, I'm sitting here thinking, how would you do that?

599
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: In the witness Yeah, Neil, you confess to me, But

600
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: now I know it's not Neil. It was in fact John.

601
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 1: Do you know that? Oh, some informant told me it

602
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: was John, but didn't That's right.

603
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: As the Crown prosecutor said, this was outside court apparently

604
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 2: said you can't have it both ways. You can't swear

605
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: that Chapman made the statement, the unsigned statement in which

606
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: he confesses to firing the shots, and now come in

607
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 2: and tell us that it wasn't him, it was some

608
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: other bloke who, conveniently for everyone, has disappeared off the

609
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 2: face of the earth, never to be found. Yeah, the front,

610
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: I mean, he just seemed to and I'm reading this transcript,

611
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: he seems to be completely unphased by any suggestion of inconsistency, wrongdoing.

612
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 2: He's just He's Roger, He's the prince of the city.

613
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: Above it. Now, it would be fair to interpret that

614
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: change of evidence would lend itself very nicely to receiving

615
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: money to help someone get off, I suspect.

616
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: So Roger in later years said that Bobby Chapman was

617
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 2: his informant. He also described him as the toughest man

618
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 2: he'd ever met. I know that Chapman always denied being

619
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: the informant. I spoke to somebody for the book and

620
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: that person said, well, there might be another explanation. Bobby

621
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 2: was paying him, you know. And Bobby did have a

622
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: fair amount of cash around that time in his I

623
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: think it was in his wife's grandmother's safe. Maybe I.

624
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: Laugh because of he's a by gone era. It is

625
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: the laughing. Is not that the consequences that play out

626
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: from this, but it just seems too ridiculous. We look

627
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,800
Speaker 1: back now and how the hell did that all happen?

628
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 2: Well, how could you get away with it? And even

629
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: back then in that instance of Bobby Chapman and the

630
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: Crown prosecutor took him outside the trials boarded and the

631
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: Crown prosecutors I don't believe there is an informant. He

632
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 2: didn't believe it at the time, but there was nothing

633
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: he could do. And it wasn't the first time that

634
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: Roger changed his evidence. There were a couple of other

635
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 2: instances where he arrests a heroin dealer. This is around

636
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: nine in eighty two eighty three. The guy is driving

637
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: a very I think it was a purple Triumph stag

638
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: and in the car they find like eight bags of

639
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: white powder, sets of scales, other bags, so it's consistent

640
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: with somebody being a I suppose street level heroin dealer.

641
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: Roger arrests him, charges him, gets to court, and Roger

642
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 2: gets in the witness box, having arrest this bloke, you know,

643
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: got to the stage of the trial and says, I've

644
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 2: made further investigations. Again, I believe that this person is

645
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 2: innocent and that everything was planted in the car and

646
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: on his person by his enemies because he had enemies

647
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: in the local business community. And again this time was

648
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 2: a magistrate. I think Matte Straight's going, what what you've

649
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: charged this guy? You've said, you know, you've presented the evidence,

650
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: and now you're telling me it's not true. He's a victim.

651
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 2: And the guy gets off. I mean, Gary, you're right,

652
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 2: I mean the front. I don't know if it's confidence

653
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 2: or hubris or ego or whatever it was the combination,

654
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: but to actually sit there and be able to say

655
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: that with a straight face and think you can carry

656
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 2: it off. That tells you, I think a lot about Roger.

657
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: I think it also says a little bit about the

658
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: power of the police back in those days, because you've

659
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: got the magistrates here, the people in the legal for

660
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: attorney they'd be seeing there, and the journalists as well,

661
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: everyone that'd know what was going on, Like you don't

662
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: have to be Einstein to join the dots on those situations.

663
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: But it was allowed to run.

664
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, magistrates would have Well, in this case, the

665
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: magistrate blew up and Roger had to go to the

666
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: police headquarters and get some sort of formal documentation to

667
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 2: drop the charges because the magistrate.

668
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: Was that's rights refused.

669
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: He refused. But you're right in so many cases, and

670
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 2: it goes back to the old verbals and the old

671
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: load ups. You know, it was an accepted practice. They

672
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: were very very different times. It was accepted by some

673
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: lawyers and some magistrates and judges because it worked for

674
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 2: so many years.

675
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: And I suppose it was allowed to a degree. And

676
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: this is not saying that's right it was allowed. Would

677
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: agree in that. Now in policing, we've got so many

678
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: tools to use. When we're talking forensics, be electronic, physical surveillance,

679
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: that type of thing, so it's easier to gather the

680
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: facts and gather the evidence. Back in the day, well,

681
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: if someone got mooded on the street, there's no CCTV footage,

682
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: there's no phone records, there's no cameras there, so you know,

683
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: maybe it was a Okay, we're not happy with it,

684
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 1: but we'll let the balance stay there in favor of

685
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:28,280
Speaker 1: the police.

686
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 2: I think there was that element that very much. And

687
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: Rogerson argued this with me in an interview he did.

688
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: I think we screened it on Four Corners where he

689
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: talked about that sort of culture where he said there

690
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 2: were three squads that did at the consorting squad armed

691
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 2: hold up and the stick ups. But he said it

692
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: was just accepted and it was done to people who

693
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 2: were quote getting out of line. And it's as you've

694
00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: just explained, they didn't have listening devices, telephone intercepts, CCTV

695
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 2: all that stuff, and as far as Roger was concerned,

696
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: this was actually and it's been called this. No, I

697
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: don't think Roger ever called anything corruption, but it's been

698
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: described as noble cause corruption where police would go, we

699
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: know Neil's done it he's getting out of hand, he's

700
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 2: running around the streets with a gun. We're going to

701
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,479
Speaker 2: put him behind bars, and we'll do it by hook

702
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 2: or by crook. And look again, it's difficult to sometimes

703
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: explain to people that that's how things were, and there

704
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 2: was an element of well, you know what, if Neil

705
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 2: was running around with a shotgun in the street, good

706
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: on them. I know it's illegal and I know it

707
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: shouldn't happen, but they are very different times, and the

708
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: very different times for everybody journalism policing the law. I mean,

709
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 2: it's still wrong.

710
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: I think it's important to make that, and that's more

711
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: important to say it's still wrong. But I remember remember

712
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: having a conversation with a particular detective where some let's

713
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: call it hard police work was done and the person

714
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: was put away, and I've gone, you're sure that's going

715
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: to stand up in court and if we lose it,

716
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: we lose it. But what do you want let him

717
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,319
Speaker 1: run around and shoot innocent people? And I'm thinking I

718
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: wouldn't have charged the person. I didn't think there was

719
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: enough evidence, and I had some respect for the person

720
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 1: that had the ticker to charge this person, knowing that

721
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: there's going to be criticism and when I challenged the

722
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: person on it said, well, what do you want us

723
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: to do? Let him run a round shooting innocent people.

724
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, I understand that and noble cause

725
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: corruption that was really drummed into us. So I'm talking

726
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: mid eighties when I started in the police, and it

727
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: was really drummed into us. So where we were learning

728
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: and where we were evolving that obviously the Royal Commission

729
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: in the New South Wales Police turned things up on

730
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: its head again, but it was different times. But in

731
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: reading your book and it gave me the preciation of

732
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: how you moved the moral compass slightly, Roger. If we're

733
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: talking what you talked about, there was a drug dealer

734
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: has got off for being punished in crime if a

735
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: bribe was paid or whatever. There was another example in

736
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: the book where someone actually an innocent person ended up

737
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 1: there because of that same type of behavior. Can you

738
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: talk us through that story.

739
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is what I call the saga of robber

740
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 2: by the name of Philip Weston, who was a Kiwi.

741
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: He robbed a bank in New Zealand. He did some

742
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: time there. He comes over to Australia and Western robs

743
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: a bank at the end of nineteen seventy five. I

744
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 2: think it's December twenty nine, nineteen seventy five. The armed

745
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 2: hold up squad is on to him and his three

746
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: accomplices within twenty four hours. They've obviously got a very

747
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: good informant, and Western is arrested in bondi junction I

748
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: think on January one, nineteen seventy six, at gunpoint by police.

749
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 2: He goes for a gun. It's a violent struggle, you know.

750
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 2: They visit his flat where he's been living. There's armoralite rifles,

751
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 2: there's handguns. There's false passports, there's false driver's licenses, wigs,

752
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, the whole kitten kerboodle that a

753
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: serious crook needs. There's a number of detectives involved in

754
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: the arrest of Philip Western and his three co accused.

755
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 2: Roger's one of them. The key person here is Philip Western.

756
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: He applies for bail, it's initially refused. He applies for

757
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: bail again, and armhold up detectives oppose it vigorously, vigorously. No, No,

758
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: if he gets out, he's going to do another armed robbery.

759
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 2: Should not get out bail's refused, bail refused, bail refused.

760
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: I think they're in total, there's about eight applications, just

761
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: keeps going and going and going. Roger gets involved, and

762
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, the tone of the armhold up

763
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 2: squad is saying about Philip western changes quite dramatically. Oh look,

764
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: Phillip's the black sheep of the family. I've met his mother,

765
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 2: I've met his wife. She's living in they're both living

766
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 2: in Manly. He's got two kids. They are people of

767
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: the highest integrity. His mum needs Philip because you know,

768
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 2: she's been ripped off by a couple of shysters. It's

769
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 2: a sob story. It just the ground shifts dramatically. He

770
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: doesn't get bail that day, but you can see the

771
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 2: groundwork is being laid. And eventually, and I think through

772
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 2: Rogerson and one other detective who they're both now dead.

773
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 2: Eventually Philip Weston appears at short notice and coincidentally or not,

774
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,919
Speaker 2: the detectives who have been opposing his bail vigorously. One

775
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 2: of them's on annual leave, the other one the day

776
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 2: before or has gone off on a cruise round the

777
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 2: South Pacific with his wife. Might be a coincidence might

778
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: be not for.

779
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: A short short bail application.

780
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 2: Bail application comes on the next to the next day.

781
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: Just breaking this down, now, say the two key officers

782
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: that were opposed to bail and had strong evidence they

783
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: happened to be away. Ye, the bail application is made

784
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: at short not.

785
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 2: Hes made at short notice. Roger doesn't get in the box,

786
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 2: but a very good mate of his gets in the

787
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: box before a judge of the district court. And despite

788
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 2: this guy being involved in the arrest, he says, Oh,

789
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 2: I know nothing about Western, I know nothing about his

790
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 2: mum or anything like that. Blah blah blah. You know

791
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 2: who can say if you lanser bail, he probably will.

792
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 2: I don't know if he was arrested at gunpoint. It's

793
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 2: wishy washy completely. I know nothing.

794
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: As reading you your book, I was thinking, well, what

795
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,280
Speaker 1: the hell are you doing in the witness spot.

796
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's what the It later emerged, that's what

797
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: the Crown prosecutors were saying. If you haven't if you

798
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 2: can't present the evidence, if you don't know the evidence,

799
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: why are you in court? As it turned out, he

800
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 2: knew that detective knew exactly what sort of person Western

801
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: was he failed to tell the crown. He failed to

802
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: tell the judge. Western gets bail for a couple of weeks.

803
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 2: He or sorry for about a week. He reports, but

804
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: then he stops reporting to Paddington Police station. He's on

805
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 2: the run. Very shortly after that, he's at Westfield paramatter.

806
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: Philip weston the arm drobber. A bank officer notices him

807
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 2: near the front door of the bank, trying to get in.

808
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 2: He confronts Western. There's a bit of a struggle. Western

809
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: runs away, the bank manager chases him. In those days,

810
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: would you believe bank managers were given revolvers to stop

811
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: armed robbers? I mean, you know, the bank manager chases,

812
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: bravely chases Western, turns around and shoots him dead. There's

813
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: an inquiry, but look and Roger's questioned, but it doesn't

814
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 2: go anywhere because it's the inquiry you're having when you're

815
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 2: not having an inquiry. There's no doubt now that I've

816
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 2: looked at the transcript of that inquiry and spoken to

817
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 2: people who are involved, there's no doubt in my mind

818
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 2: that all that circumstantial evidence points to Roger Rogerson manipulating

819
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: the system so that Philip Western got bail, and there

820
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: was a huge amount of money fifty thousand either paid

821
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 2: or to be paid to Rogerson and the result of

822
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 2: that man getting bail, an innocent bank manager was murdered

823
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 2: in broad daylight in the middle of a westfield shoping.

824
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 2: He had two kids.

825
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 1: And if that's not enough to check yourself, if you

826
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: were taking dollars on bribes to help people, and that's

827
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: the consequences you have. You've a sworn police officer and

828
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 1: you're involved in that. So what happened to Western.

829
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,720
Speaker 2: Wells wanted for murder. He's not just for jumping his bail.

830
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 2: He's the the suspect in the murder of this bank manager,

831
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 2: forty year old bank manager, wife, two kids. You know,

832
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: it's been in the bank. It's his life, or it was.

833
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 2: Western's on the run. Roger pretty much takes control of

834
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: the hunt for Philip Weston. He's a key planner in

835
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 2: the whole thing. Western is finally located north of Sydney, Avoca,

836
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: about eighty ninety k's north of Sydney. I think in

837
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 2: a little shack on a beach, the armhold up squad

838
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 2: And was it the special not It wasn't special weapons

839
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 2: in those days, but it was the equivalent. They're all

840
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 2: armed with profests and shotguns. They surround Philip Western early

841
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 2: one morning. Tear gas goes into the little beach shack

842
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: where Western is. He's got a gun. Shots are fired

843
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: from inside. He sticks his head through a bathroom window

844
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: to be confronted by three officers, all with shotguns. They

845
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: fear they're going to be shot, so they open fire.

846
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: Philip Western is shot dead. And I don't think on

847
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 2: the documentation that I've seen, I don't think there is

848
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 2: anything well, I'm not sure I fun toward is the

849
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 2: right word, but I don't think there's anything suspicious about

850
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 2: the actual death of Western. It's what preceded that, how

851
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:30,399
Speaker 2: he got bail. But you know, with Western's death, conveniently

852
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 2: for Roger, Trail is dead. The Trail there's nothing, there's

853
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: no allegation that can be proved. One of the interesting

854
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,360
Speaker 2: things was that I found in some of the documents

855
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 2: Gary was that if Western had been taken alive, the

856
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,320
Speaker 2: person who was going to drive him back to Sydney

857
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 2: was Rogerson. Well, obviously with a couple of other police.

858
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: But you sort of look at that and you go, wow,

859
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: he sort of had all bases covered.

860
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm looking at an operation of that nature

861
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: and the complexity of it all that if doing corruptly

862
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: what he had done, He's juggling so many different things.

863
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 2: It's extraordinary, really, I mean. But such was his standing

864
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: that he.

865
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: Could didn't get questioned.

866
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 2: He didn't get questioned.

867
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: So that was the end of Western.

868
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: That was the end of Western. There was an inquiry

869
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: run by somebody from the Public Service Board and Roger

870
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: was called and that's where a lot of this evidence

871
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: came out. But it just never went anywhere, And there

872
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 2: was some allegations of wrongdoing, never went anywhere. It was

873
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: just they were in a tiny little paper one day,

874
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 2: forgotten the next, We're just sailed on.

875
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 1: Without mentioning names. You've spoken to the police that were

876
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: very angry about what happened in that situation too, the

877
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: people that saw it for what it was and no

878
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: action taken.

879
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 2: I spoke to and this is in very recent years,

880
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 2: or in fact last year. One of the armhold Ups

881
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: GOD members who had vigorously opposed Philip Western's pail is

882
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 2: still with us. And I wrote him a letter and

883
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: I said, oh, do you remember anything about this case?

884
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 2: And he phoned me about a week later and he said, yeah,

885
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: I do remember it. He said, men died because of

886
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 2: what Roger did. I don't want to talk over the phone.

887
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: Come and see me. This guy's in his middle, still still.

888
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: Old school paranoia, never lose.

889
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 2: I don't talk over the phone. And I'm thinking, okay,

890
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: I go to see him, and he says, I've got

891
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,400
Speaker 2: no doubt Rogerson was paid. The word was he was

892
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 2: paid fifty grand, or was going to be paid fifty grand.

893
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 2: That's why Western was trying to rob the bank to

894
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: pay Roger. And he is he was a good mate

895
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: of Roger's at one point. And very shortly after Western

896
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 2: was shot at a vocer and he comes back from

897
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 2: his Russian cruise liner trip around the South Pacific. He's

898
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 2: unceremoniously kicked out of the armhold up squad.

899
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: That's how he's true.

900
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 2: That's how he is treated. Because Roger knew that he

901
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 2: was no longer, couldn't be trust, couldn't be trusted, that

902
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,439
Speaker 2: would be that would be it. And even though they'd

903
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 2: been mates, they shared a card to work, their families

904
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: knew each other. That was it. He was out, and

905
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: it was pretty much I wouldn't say the end of

906
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 2: his police career, but it never really recovered.

907
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: Soul destroying. I'd say, if you're fighting against the culture

908
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: and that's and the organization that you're trying to protect

909
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 1: doesn't support you, and you just get flicked. I can

910
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: imagine what he was, what he was going through. The

911
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: thing that really came out to me on it, Neil,

912
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: and this is I feel like I'm naive because I

913
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: know about the crimes you're talking about in different things.

914
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: But when they've done something like that, I would think

915
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: if they got away with what played out there, that

916
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: would be the end of it. Surely, surely a half

917
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 1: decent human being and say, enough is enough, we've lost

918
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: our way. Someone with a moral compass must put the

919
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,439
Speaker 1: hand up and go stuff this, this is where we're

920
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: going down the wrong path. But it didn't.

921
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 2: It never happened. And I think Western Philip Weston, the

922
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: bloke who gets shot up at a voca, was portrayed

923
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 2: as a madman, mad dog, you know, and the newspapers

924
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 2: of the day, you know, and fair enough they're getting

925
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 2: the information from the police, you know. Don't approach him,

926
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 2: don't go near him. He's going to and Rogerson or

927
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: one of Rogerson's closest colleagues puts in this report saying

928
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: he will he will shoot it out with police. He

929
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 2: hates the armed hold up squad. He will take every

930
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 2: officer with him. So don't approach him. Whatever you do, like,

931
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,399
Speaker 2: you know, leave it to us.

932
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: So it's almost setting up the public to be ready

933
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: that when he was arrested, he was shot and killed

934
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: and the police won the gunfight.

935
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 2: They won the gun fight, don't get me wrong. I mean,

936
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: Philip Western had done a very bad scene obviously, but

937
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: he wouldn't have been out on bail in my opinion,

938
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 2: and given the the material that I've uncovered over the

939
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 2: last few years, he would not have been out on

940
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 2: bail if not.

941
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: For Roger and that bank manager had still he'd still

942
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: be alive. Yeah, I know that's the consequences of it,

943
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 1: can I Yeah, I said it was going to be

944
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: a heavy conversation. We're go into a murky world, but

945
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 1: we'll push through. The shooting of Lawrence burn.

946
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 2: Lawrence Byrn was shot in nineteen seventy eight. Who by well,

947
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 2: no prize is for guessing here, Garry, He's shot by

948
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 2: Roger Rogerson. Lawrence Butcher Burn. His nickname was Butcher. He's

949
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 2: an armed robber. He's got a record. Roger in fact,

950
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: tells me many many years ago that he'd arrested Butcher

951
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 2: a couple of times he'd done armed robberies. But the

952
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 2: armhold Up Squad has a tip off at least two

953
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 2: or three weeks before that Butcher is going to rob

954
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,800
Speaker 2: the South the payroff sorry, the takings of South Sydney

955
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 2: Juniors on a Sunday, because every Sunday the club taking

956
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: is from the previous Friday, Saturday and so on are

957
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: taken in an old combe with maybe one or two

958
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 2: old blokes as security and deposited in a night's safe

959
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,240
Speaker 2: in a bank in Anzac Parade. So we're talking about

960
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: you know, Anzac Parade, Randwick, the Kingsford, Yeah, pretty much

961
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 2: sort of middlers, not the CBD.

962
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: But just on the outskirts.

963
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 2: It's just on the outskirts, and they observe Butchery Burn.

964
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: One week he's clearly surveiling the old combe as it

965
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,359
Speaker 2: comes towards the bank. But that's all he's doing. And

966
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 2: they know it's Butcher because Butcher is actually in jail

967
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 2: at this time. But he's doing day release. So on

968
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 2: the Saturday before Butcher is shot, he's in jail. Somebody

969
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: finds the jail and says we need Butcher for an

970
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 2: urgent painting job because he had been working for on

971
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 2: day release for a painting and decorating company. And the

972
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 2: jail goes, oh okay. So Butcher walks out the door

973
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:09,919
Speaker 2: that Sunday morning, meets up with two mates and they

974
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 2: go to rob the takings of South Sydney Juniors. You know,

975
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: the old Combe turns up, you know, same time, same place,

976
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 2: same station, every week, So predictable.

977
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: Butch.

978
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 2: He's there with his two co accues. But so is

979
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:29,800
Speaker 2: the armed hold up squad. And Roger has got a bulletproofessed.

980
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 2: He's got his shotgun, a Remington shotgun which apparently has

981
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 2: some very powerful shot, not just your normal pellets. There

982
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: are many many police there in cars. Roger says, I

983
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 2: saw Butcher burn starting to point his shotgun in my direction.

984
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 2: I open fire. Roger fire's four blasts from his shotgun.

985
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 2: His colleague, the late arts at least four shots from

986
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 2: his service revolver. Some of them go through the windscreens,

987
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: some of them go into the tires. Car takes off

988
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 2: down Anzac Pray. This is ten thirty on a Sunday morning,

989
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:15,319
Speaker 2: middle of February. Car takes off. Other police who are

990
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: there in the stakeout start opening fire. One officer empties

991
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,399
Speaker 2: six shots from his smith and Wesson. A police car

992
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,760
Speaker 2: gives chase. An officer leans out of the car, firing

993
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 2: his shotgun at the escaping crims, who are apparently firing

994
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 2: back through the back window, which is now shattered. The

995
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: car's riddled with bullets. It gets about a few hundred

996
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 2: meters down Anzac Prayed and comes to a stop, tires

997
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 2: shot out. A Butchy has been mortally wounded. The two

998
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: other guys in the car incredibly, one of them has

999
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 2: a sort of a slight wound, but they're still alive.

1000
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 2: Nobody quite knows how, because as Roger described this to

1001
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 2: me in later years, I think he said this at

1002
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 2: one of his shows that he did. He said that

1003
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 2: car was full of more holes than your mother's colander.

1004
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,360
Speaker 2: And Butcher fell out of the car dead onto the raid. Well,

1005
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,320
Speaker 2: not quite as Roger described it in later years, but

1006
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,479
Speaker 2: Butch he did fall out of the car. He died

1007
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,439
Speaker 2: six days later in hospital and at the very very

1008
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 2: short inquest that followed that, as far as I can

1009
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 2: make out, barely got reported. Butcher was shot either by

1010
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: Roger's shotgun or the other bloke who was firing the shotgun.

1011
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 2: But Roger took the credit. So it was you know,

1012
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 2: we'll wait for him. We know he's coming out of jail,

1013
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,439
Speaker 2: we know he's going to do the job. We'll just wait.

1014
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 2: And you know, there were people on the footpath, there

1015
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 2: were the couple of old blokes in the combe who

1016
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 2: were taking the money, and all of a sudden there's

1017
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 2: a gunfight in the middle of Anzac Parade in Sydney.

1018
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 2: At least twenty shots were fire, and I think that's

1019
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 2: probably an underestimate.

1020
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, planning operations like that, there's there's certain

1021
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: times and it always improves and it's tightened up. But

1022
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: that's yeah, it's messy in the regards unless you're there,

1023
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 1: I suppose I can't really comment, but it's amazing that

1024
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: another shooting that Rogers had dealings with the deceased person.

1025
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. He knew him, as he said himself.

1026
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 2: He told me he knew Butcher. People knew who Butcher was.

1027
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 2: And look if Butcher was pointing his shotgun at Roger

1028
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 2: and maybe the blokes in the comby van problems. There's

1029
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: no problems. Yeah, and the shots were definitely fired. So

1030
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that this maybe falls into the you know,

1031
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 2: the worst category. I guess it goes to policing in

1032
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 2: those days where that's how things were done. The robbers

1033
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 2: were on their way, there's no listening devices for the car.

1034
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 2: You can't listen to their mobile phones. You've got to

1035
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: let it unfold well.

1036
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: And from tactical policing got to because there was a

1037
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: couple of other police shootings and we board in the

1038
00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 1: policy of contained in the gashat and that was in

1039
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: place at the Link Cafe. But then different things for

1040
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:17,760
Speaker 1: you know, if it's a terrorist situation, because you've got

1041
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 1: to evolve and adapt. But yeah, I look at the

1042
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: latter part of my career, look at the early part

1043
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: of my career. At the early part of my career,

1044
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: I remember sitting in banks or outside banks with guns

1045
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: waiting for someone to come and robert and arrest them.

1046
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 1: And it wasn't a great You didn't need to get

1047
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: signed off by senior police officers. It was basically the

1048
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: detective's office. What are you doing O this Blake's going

1049
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 1: to go Robert Bank. We're going to wait for him

1050
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 1: and catch him. Catch him there. That was the way

1051
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: I think things were done. I think they need to

1052
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: tail tighten up the jail security if I'm not wrong.

1053
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: It was a phone call from a company that was

1054
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: no longer it exists.

1055
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 2: It was a phone call from a company that I

1056
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 2: think had gone into well liquidation or what. It was

1057
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,959
Speaker 2: a very small company which was run by a guy

1058
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 2: who had met Butcher in jail. So he had a

1059
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 2: criminal record himself. And he was interviewed and he said,

1060
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: I never phoned the jail. I hadn't employed Butchy for

1061
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 2: like six months. I never phoned anybody. So somebody has

1062
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 2: phoned the jail someone and said we need butchery. Maybe

1063
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 2: it was one of his co accused, but they just

1064
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 2: led him out.

1065
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: Not a lot of checks and balance, No, there weren't.

1066
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: No we'll have a break in a sect. But you know,

1067
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,000
Speaker 1: you just talked about Anzac parade ten to thirty on

1068
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: a Sunday morning and yeah, fourthy or so shots and

1069
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 1: in car chases. Can you imagine that happening today? The attention,

1070
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 1: it's almost like it's something that thankfully it doesn't happen,

1071
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:43,160
Speaker 1: but it's almost like something that's.

1072
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 2: It's a by god era, and you know, that's the

1073
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,760
Speaker 2: way things were done. There were shotguns in the back

1074
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 2: of police cars, people took off and armed robbery was

1075
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 2: about to happen, as you say, although in Butcher's case

1076
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 2: they had like a couple of weeks warning. So look,

1077
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 2: maybe things could have been done differently. That's not my area.

1078
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 2: All I can do is say, here's what we know

1079
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 2: from the coronial inquest, and these are the statements of

1080
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 2: the police themselves. But look, there was no criticism of Rogerson,

1081
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 2: there was no criticism of anybody. But he had pulled

1082
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 2: a gun or a shotgun and another bloke who also

1083
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,919
Speaker 2: had a gun had fired back. But it wouldn't happen now,

1084
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: it wouldn't happen.

1085
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,640
Speaker 1: Well, it was a sign of the times, wasn't it.

1086
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 1: The police were untouchable in terms of the view of

1087
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: the public. The police are just doing their job. The

1088
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 1: bad guys would be arguing against it. But the general

1089
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: public and the way the media reported that whatever the

1090
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 1: police did, it was for the good of society.

1091
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 2: So that's right of the question, that's right, and in

1092
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 2: those days, you know, you had crime reporters who had

1093
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 2: a very good relationship with detectives. In particular, I think

1094
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 2: you could say better almost you know, with homicide, because crime,

1095
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:09,000
Speaker 2: well like now sold newspapers in those days, particularly tabloids,

1096
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 2: and there was nothing wrong with that. But reporters were

1097
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 2: very close to detectives like Rogerson, not necessarily a whole

1098
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 2: range of detectives, and they are not going to be critical.

1099
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 2: And there wasn't that investigative side happening back in the seventies.

1100
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: Na.

1101
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 2: I think the first time it really came into being

1102
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 2: was probably with land Francie. It started that started the question,

1103
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:41,439
Speaker 2: started people questioning, hang on, there's something seriously wrong here,

1104
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 2: something either with the methods or the end result or

1105
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 2: the end you know, what's happened.

1106
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: Something smelly there. We'll get onto that in part two.

1107
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 1: But we talk about and I feel the need to

1108
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: defend police too because we talk about corrupt small portion.

1109
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 1: I know people, I know detectives that worked in those

1110
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: squads in those times, and I've got nothing but that

1111
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 1: mast respect for him and the rotten apple like Roger

1112
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: and others bring our reputation down, and I know I'll

1113
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 1: sit here and say, from a former detective, I despise

1114
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: people like that that have tarnished the reputation of the

1115
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: hard working, hard working detectives.

1116
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I agree with the absolutely because I know

1117
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 2: some of those people from the old Harmed Armed hold

1118
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,800
Speaker 2: Up Squad and other squads, and in my view, they

1119
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 2: were really, really good detectives. And it's what you alluded

1120
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 2: to earlier. They worked with Roger. I don't think a

1121
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,680
Speaker 2: lot of them knew exactly what he was doing. I

1122
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 2: think he manipulated his colleagues, some of them, not all

1123
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 2: of them, but yeah, they didn't know what he was

1124
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 2: doing or planning or you know. So I think a

1125
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 2: lot of them were unfairly tarnished by Roger. And I

1126
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 2: would like to make that point too, that I think

1127
01:03:57,320 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: there are a lot of good detectives. Everybody goes, oh,

1128
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 2: they're all corrupt, they were all rotten. It was a

1129
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 2: shocking era. Well no, it's not that simple. There were

1130
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 2: good detectives there and Roger, well, boy did he tarnish

1131
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: a few reputations.

1132
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: Unsay the least, that's probably a good way to win

1133
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: m Part one. We'll be back shortly with part two.

1134
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 1: Thanks now, thank you