1 00:00:01,370 --> 00:00:09,619 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7am. For decades, 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: liberal democracy came with a promise, that with each generation 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,540 Speaker 1: we would feel freer, wealthier, and have more control over 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: our lives. But after years of economic shocks, war and 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: political upheaval, more and more people seem to have stopped 6 00:00:23,180 --> 00:00:26,450 Speaker 1: believing that promise. And in its place, we're seeing political 7 00:00:26,510 --> 00:00:30,500 Speaker 1: movements emerge that don't just want different policies, They're questioning 8 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: some of the fundamental ideas our democracies were built on. 9 00:00:34,229 --> 00:00:37,309 Speaker 1: In his new quarterly essay, Time of Monsters, writer and 10 00:00:37,330 --> 00:00:40,410 Speaker 1: broadcaster Waleed Ali argues this is part of something bigger, 11 00:00:40,850 --> 00:00:45,930 Speaker 1: a crisis in liberalism itself. Today, Waleed Ali, on whether 12 00:00:45,950 --> 00:00:49,130 Speaker 1: we're entering a post-liberal age and what might replace the 13 00:00:49,190 --> 00:01:00,350 Speaker 1: old order. It's Saturday, September 26th. Wale, good to see 14 00:01:00,370 --> 00:01:03,350 Speaker 1: you again. Let's start with what prompted this essay, the 15 00:01:03,450 --> 00:01:06,370 Speaker 1: bin fire that is the current state of the world. 16 00:01:07,430 --> 00:01:09,330 Speaker 1: How did we get here? What makes you think that 17 00:01:09,390 --> 00:01:12,190 Speaker 1: this is more than just a rough patch? 18 00:01:12,690 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: Look, it's a massive question, and we could talk for 19 00:01:15,620 --> 00:01:19,420 Speaker 2: weeks about how we got here. I mean, I suppose 20 00:01:19,459 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: the most efficient way to answer that would just be 21 00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:24,059 Speaker 2: to say, look at this century. I mean, it's been 22 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: a hell of a century. We start with September 11th. 23 00:01:27,670 --> 00:01:30,209 Speaker 2: the war on terror, wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. 24 00:01:30,990 --> 00:01:34,500 Speaker 3: On my orders, the United States military has begun strikes 25 00:01:35,380 --> 00:01:39,620 Speaker 3: against al-Qaeda terrorist training camps and military installations of the 26 00:01:39,660 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 3: Taliban regime in Afghanistan. 27 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: Then you go into homegrown terrorism and the London bombings. 28 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:48,620 Speaker 2: It's not very long after that that you have climate 29 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,100 Speaker 2: change really emerging as an issue in the public imagination 30 00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: when Al Gore releases his film. 31 00:01:55,180 --> 00:01:58,540 Speaker 3: If you look at the 10 hottest years ever measured, 32 00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:01,250 Speaker 3: they've all occurred in the last 14 years. 33 00:02:01,530 --> 00:02:03,130 Speaker 1: And the hottest of all was 2005. 34 00:02:03,130 --> 00:02:09,150 Speaker 2: Then you have the global financial crisis. 35 00:02:10,510 --> 00:02:11,769 Speaker 1: What kind of power? 36 00:02:11,889 --> 00:02:12,590 Speaker 3: People power! 37 00:02:12,790 --> 00:02:16,950 Speaker 4: Wall Street, it crashes, and people starve, people lose their jobs, 38 00:02:17,050 --> 00:02:17,590 Speaker 4: things like that. 39 00:02:17,900 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: We're very angry at Wall Street. It's the heart of capitalism, 40 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,260 Speaker 1: American capitalism especially. That's why we're here today. 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:23,660 Speaker 4: At Wall Street. 42 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:26,650 Speaker 2: And after the global financial crisis, you have the start, really, 43 00:02:26,950 --> 00:02:28,850 Speaker 2: which we ignore, I think, but the start of a 44 00:02:29,550 --> 00:02:33,070 Speaker 2: lot of populist right politics, beginning with Viktor Orban's election 45 00:02:33,090 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: in Hungary in 2010, Golden Dawn emerged in Greece. You've 46 00:02:36,580 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: got the AFD in Germany, basically, you know, an inheritor of, 47 00:02:40,940 --> 00:02:44,389 Speaker 2: let's call them neo-Nazi adjacents. We've got the whole tech thing. 48 00:02:44,450 --> 00:02:46,530 Speaker 2: So you've got, you know, social media starting to develop. 49 00:02:46,570 --> 00:02:49,790 Speaker 2: The algorithm starts to dominate these apps as well. Artificial 50 00:02:49,830 --> 00:02:52,130 Speaker 2: intelligence hasn't really started at that point, but that's OK 51 00:02:52,169 --> 00:02:53,329 Speaker 2: because COVID's on the horizon. 52 00:02:53,350 --> 00:02:54,130 Speaker 5: So we have COVID. 53 00:02:55,770 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 6: WHO has been assessing this outbreak around the clock and 54 00:03:01,340 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 6: we're deeply concerned both by the alarming levels of spread 55 00:03:06,620 --> 00:03:14,130 Speaker 6: and severity and by the alarming levels of inaction. We 56 00:03:14,180 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 6: have therefore made the assessment that COVID-19 can be characterized 57 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 6: as a pandemic. 58 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,180 Speaker 2: And then in the aftermath of that, that's when we 59 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,139 Speaker 2: enter the Ukraine-Russia war. 60 00:03:28,540 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 5: You have Israel-Gaza, you. 61 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: Have inflation exploding all around the world, partly because of 62 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:36,230 Speaker 2: COVID and the money that governments pumped in to economies. 63 00:03:36,810 --> 00:03:39,070 Speaker 2: But then also what happened in Russia and Ukraine and 64 00:03:39,090 --> 00:03:41,850 Speaker 2: what that does to energy markets. Then AI takes off. 65 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:43,610 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know if you need me to 66 00:03:43,630 --> 00:03:45,540 Speaker 2: go on, Daniel, but there's been a hell. 67 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:46,470 Speaker 1: Of a lot going on. 68 00:03:46,470 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 5: Please don't. 69 00:03:47,030 --> 00:03:48,090 Speaker 1: Just stop right there. 70 00:03:48,780 --> 00:03:51,340 Speaker 2: When you add those things up, it's the fact that 71 00:03:51,380 --> 00:03:54,820 Speaker 2: these are relentless and it's the fact that they don't stop. Frankly, 72 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,340 Speaker 2: when you put it together like that, it would be 73 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: remarkable if there weren't people who were saying, whoa, something 74 00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:03,500 Speaker 2: is seriously wrong. Not that it's a moment, a rough 75 00:04:03,540 --> 00:04:07,180 Speaker 2: patch we might get through when a different government comes in, 76 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: but that there's just something deeply wrong. And so you 77 00:04:09,460 --> 00:04:11,980 Speaker 2: get this kind of anti-systemic politics. 78 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,710 Speaker 1: Going So we've seen the rising backlash in the wake 79 00:04:16,890 --> 00:04:19,250 Speaker 1: of the myriad of events you just laid out for us, 80 00:04:19,290 --> 00:04:22,010 Speaker 1: and that's sort of led to people feeling as though 81 00:04:22,029 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: they've got less control over their own lives than ever before. 82 00:04:26,220 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: And it's particularly evident in the current rise of far-right 83 00:04:29,140 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: politics and protests around the world. So how deep does 84 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:35,940 Speaker 1: the disillusionment actually go, Waleed? 85 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: I don't know how you would measure it, but if 86 00:04:38,660 --> 00:04:40,219 Speaker 2: I could, it would be in a lot of metres, 87 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:41,739 Speaker 2: put it that way, below the surface. 88 00:04:41,779 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 5: The roots go deep, I think. 89 00:04:44,610 --> 00:04:47,750 Speaker 2: We mischaracterise this or we underdescribe it perhaps if we 90 00:04:47,770 --> 00:04:49,870 Speaker 2: just describe it as a moment of a rise in 91 00:04:50,130 --> 00:04:53,610 Speaker 2: the populist riot. That's happening, but that's actually been going 92 00:04:53,750 --> 00:04:56,410 Speaker 2: on certainly in European and then American. 93 00:04:56,089 --> 00:04:59,890 Speaker 5: Politics throughout the 2010s. Australia is just late to that party. 94 00:04:59,930 --> 00:05:02,060 Speaker 2: I think it's significant we didn't really get the global 95 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: financial crisis in Australia, so that helps explain part of that. 96 00:05:06,390 --> 00:05:08,670 Speaker 2: But there was a real surge in a kind of 97 00:05:08,690 --> 00:05:12,370 Speaker 2: hyper-progressive politics as well. You're not talking anymore about a 98 00:05:12,410 --> 00:05:15,770 Speaker 2: politics that can easily or comfortably be described as, you know, 99 00:05:15,790 --> 00:05:19,550 Speaker 2: centre-left versus centre-right. And what's significant to me is that 100 00:05:19,990 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 2: you can't look through the 2010s through to now and say, right, 101 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 2: we're having a right-wing moment and then there'll be a 102 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: left-wing moment. 103 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:28,979 Speaker 5: And we'll just trade. What's interesting is that these various. 104 00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 2: Movements of what you might call a version of hyper-politics 105 00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: or something, they've been able to grow together even though 106 00:05:34,420 --> 00:05:37,570 Speaker 2: they are desperately opposed to each other. And that tells 107 00:05:37,589 --> 00:05:40,029 Speaker 2: you that something is going on beneath the surface, I think, 108 00:05:40,070 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: that makes it possible for them both to surge at 109 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:44,060 Speaker 2: the same time. 110 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: You write about the impact of capitalism turbocharging inequality and 111 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,060 Speaker 1: destroying the planet. And there's also the internet and social 112 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: media fueling polarisation, misinformation and malinformation. But you've come to 113 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,669 Speaker 1: the conclusion that there's something bigger underpending all of this, 114 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:03,810 Speaker 1: and that is liberalism. So what do you mean by liberalism? 115 00:06:04,470 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 2: So I'm not referring to the way Americans use the 116 00:06:07,740 --> 00:06:10,290 Speaker 2: term liberal or the way Australians use the term liberal. 117 00:06:10,690 --> 00:06:13,270 Speaker 2: I'm talking about the political philosophy that actually defines the 118 00:06:13,450 --> 00:06:19,070 Speaker 2: whole shebang, the whole settlement, like institutional ideas, separation of powers, independence, judiciary, 119 00:06:19,589 --> 00:06:23,089 Speaker 2: the sovereignty of the people, equality of citizens before the law, 120 00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:27,229 Speaker 2: freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion and conscience, 121 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,580 Speaker 2: but also a focus on individual rights and individual autonomy 122 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 2: and And also then it starts to be a philosophy 123 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 2: really of perpetual improvement. We will always get freer. We 124 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,859 Speaker 2: will always get wealthier. We will always have more control 125 00:06:40,940 --> 00:06:41,820 Speaker 2: over our lives. 126 00:06:42,339 --> 00:06:43,099 Speaker 5: That's the whole thing. 127 00:06:43,660 --> 00:06:46,780 Speaker 2: It's a post-enlightenment idea, really, that we've given up on 128 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,790 Speaker 2: this idea that humans usually had throughout history, that things 129 00:06:49,830 --> 00:06:50,630 Speaker 2: just go in cycles. 130 00:06:50,650 --> 00:06:51,930 Speaker 5: There are ups and downs in life. 131 00:06:51,950 --> 00:06:54,550 Speaker 2: Your children aren't necessarily going to be better off than you, 132 00:06:54,610 --> 00:06:57,750 Speaker 2: and this is life. That's what the Stoics said. That's 133 00:06:57,790 --> 00:07:00,410 Speaker 2: what pretty much every religious tradition told a story of that. 134 00:07:01,450 --> 00:07:03,570 Speaker 2: You get to the Enlightenment and suddenly we manage to 135 00:07:03,620 --> 00:07:07,020 Speaker 2: convince ourselves as a species, especially in Europe, we can just, 136 00:07:07,460 --> 00:07:11,020 Speaker 2: through application of reason and science, have perpetual improvement. And 137 00:07:11,060 --> 00:07:13,820 Speaker 2: maybe what's happening in the crisis of the current age 138 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,430 Speaker 2: is that people are beginning no longer to believe that. 139 00:07:16,950 --> 00:07:19,630 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're seeing that promise sort of falling down around 140 00:07:19,690 --> 00:07:22,930 Speaker 1: us in so many different ways in terms of economic attainment, 141 00:07:23,230 --> 00:07:28,130 Speaker 1: access to housing, security from housing, with housing. the fact 142 00:07:28,170 --> 00:07:31,119 Speaker 1: that future generations may not live as long as current 143 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: generations because of various reasons. In what way are the 144 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,460 Speaker 1: things we're seeing in the world a reaction to liberalism 145 00:07:39,500 --> 00:07:42,730 Speaker 1: and its shortcomings and not just a reaction to the 146 00:07:42,770 --> 00:07:43,710 Speaker 1: crisis of the moment? 147 00:07:44,010 --> 00:07:46,570 Speaker 2: Well, I think that depends on what you make of 148 00:07:46,650 --> 00:07:48,790 Speaker 2: the point I was making earlier that this isn't a moment, 149 00:07:49,090 --> 00:07:51,390 Speaker 2: that this is a culmination. So if you think it's 150 00:07:51,410 --> 00:07:54,130 Speaker 2: a culmination, and I do, then it can't simply be 151 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:56,740 Speaker 2: a momentary crisis that is solved in a moment, I think. 152 00:07:57,430 --> 00:07:59,930 Speaker 2: These are forms of politics that emerge from within liberal 153 00:07:59,990 --> 00:08:03,930 Speaker 2: societies that are looking to dispense with liberalism to some 154 00:08:03,990 --> 00:08:07,750 Speaker 2: significant degree. In the United States, for example, alongside the 155 00:08:07,770 --> 00:08:11,830 Speaker 2: Trump administration, you've got a whole series of philosophers, and 156 00:08:12,110 --> 00:08:15,810 Speaker 2: by that I mean proper academic philosophers and scholars, who 157 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: are avowedly trying to put together a post-liberal philosophy, a 158 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 2: program of That would sound in politics that identifies the 159 00:08:24,780 --> 00:08:26,620 Speaker 2: failures of liberalism and wants to come up with an 160 00:08:26,930 --> 00:08:30,350 Speaker 2: alternative way of doing politics that is not about individual 161 00:08:30,410 --> 00:08:32,110 Speaker 2: rights but is about this idea. 162 00:08:31,890 --> 00:08:32,710 Speaker 5: Of the common good. 163 00:08:34,330 --> 00:08:36,209 Speaker 2: The woke politics thing was all about that as well. 164 00:08:36,870 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 2: Not the common good, but their argument was liberalism just 165 00:08:40,010 --> 00:08:43,980 Speaker 2: entrenches oppression, it entrenches hierarchies, it entrenches privileged groups and 166 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 2: disempowered groups. So things like freedom of speech are actually 167 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,140 Speaker 2: not a good thing because all they do is that 168 00:08:49,179 --> 00:08:52,170 Speaker 2: they allow those with power to speak loudly and more dominantly, etc. 169 00:08:52,190 --> 00:08:54,390 Speaker 2: So you're familiar with the argument. The point is these 170 00:08:54,429 --> 00:08:57,069 Speaker 2: are post-liberal arguments. These are arguments that are trying to 171 00:08:57,170 --> 00:09:00,190 Speaker 2: attack the philosophical foundations of liberalism itself. 172 00:09:01,110 --> 00:09:01,850 Speaker 5: Now, they may fail. 173 00:09:02,230 --> 00:09:04,770 Speaker 2: They strike us as radicals. They might strike many of us, 174 00:09:04,950 --> 00:09:07,780 Speaker 2: to use the title of my essay, as monsters. But 175 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,460 Speaker 2: there's a reason they strike us that way, and that 176 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 2: is that they are dissenting from the things that we've 177 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,260 Speaker 2: never had to think about, really. for, and that's what 178 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,949 Speaker 2: sets this moment as a culmination of things apart, I think. 179 00:09:23,150 --> 00:09:27,270 Speaker 1: Coming up, it's not just philosophers imagining what comes after liberalism. 180 00:09:28,030 --> 00:09:41,530 Speaker 1: People in power are now trying to build it. Waleed, 181 00:09:41,550 --> 00:09:45,610 Speaker 1: this shift, this push against liberalism creates a a tough 182 00:09:45,650 --> 00:09:48,630 Speaker 1: predicament for governments in deciding how much to interfere in 183 00:09:48,670 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: our lives on things like social media and AI, the 184 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,170 Speaker 1: idea of free speech itself. What's the tension between regulation 185 00:09:57,290 --> 00:09:58,550 Speaker 1: versus personal freedom? 186 00:09:58,570 --> 00:10:01,819 Speaker 2: It's a huge tension. It might be becoming the definitive tension, 187 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: either of our age or of certain issues that help 188 00:10:04,780 --> 00:10:09,020 Speaker 2: define our age. One of the problems liberalism has is 189 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,140 Speaker 2: that it's not a philosophy that starts from the position 190 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,570 Speaker 2: of what is good for us as humans. It starts 191 00:10:17,590 --> 00:10:20,329 Speaker 2: from the position of how do we maximize people's freedom 192 00:10:20,950 --> 00:10:22,740 Speaker 2: and then kind of assumes that that will be good. 193 00:10:23,460 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 2: And so it then says, well, there's no real case 194 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 2: for intervening to stop something from happening if we can't 195 00:10:32,059 --> 00:10:33,340 Speaker 2: identify the harm. 196 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:34,339 Speaker 5: That it would cause. 197 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,420 Speaker 2: That's a very different way of thinking about technology than 198 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,380 Speaker 2: say the ancients would have used or indeed, you know, 199 00:10:41,809 --> 00:10:45,050 Speaker 2: The Pope uses when he discusses AI in his recent encyclical, 200 00:10:45,090 --> 00:10:47,210 Speaker 2: which got a lot of attention and a lot of applause. 201 00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:52,410 Speaker 7: Peace, not merely the absence of war, is justice at work. 202 00:10:53,570 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 7: But when technology weakens our critical sense, peace itself is 203 00:10:58,179 --> 00:10:58,660 Speaker 7: at risk. 204 00:10:59,220 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: But what's interesting about it is it's just approaching technology 205 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,140 Speaker 2: in a fundamentally different way. He's asking, when we have 206 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: something like technology, is it good for us as human beings? 207 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 2: Does it encourage human flourishing? Does it enhance our relationships. 208 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,660 Speaker 5: With each other? All these sorts of questions. 209 00:11:12,730 --> 00:11:15,689 Speaker 2: Liberalism can't ask those questions because it would regard answers 210 00:11:15,710 --> 00:11:19,650 Speaker 2: to those questions as moralistic or interfering. So you get 211 00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:22,770 Speaker 2: something like social media, which we go, we embrace wholeheartedly. 212 00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:24,050 Speaker 5: What's the harm, right? 213 00:11:24,230 --> 00:11:28,190 Speaker 2: And then years down the track, we go, oh, there 214 00:11:28,210 --> 00:11:29,089 Speaker 2: might be a lot of harm here. 215 00:11:30,650 --> 00:11:31,650 Speaker 1: We're saying it play out. 216 00:11:31,730 --> 00:11:33,870 Speaker 2: But then the problem becomes, well, what do we do 217 00:11:33,929 --> 00:11:38,010 Speaker 2: about it? And liberalism can't dismantle the machine it built. 218 00:11:38,780 --> 00:11:41,570 Speaker 2: So notice the way in which when it came to 219 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,150 Speaker 2: trying to deal with the algorithm, what did the conversation become? 220 00:11:44,309 --> 00:11:48,030 Speaker 2: It became, well, we need to opt out of our 221 00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:50,830 Speaker 2: algorithm or we need to opt in to our algorithm. 222 00:11:51,070 --> 00:11:53,790 Speaker 2: But notice the language here. All the philosophical tools that 223 00:11:53,809 --> 00:11:57,370 Speaker 2: were being marshaled here are my individual choice to be 224 00:11:57,450 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 2: governed by the algorithm or not. It's about consent. It's 225 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: about contract. It's about all these things that liberalism does 226 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: very well. But if I were to tell you, yeah, 227 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,370 Speaker 2: but The problem with social media, for example, is that 228 00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:13,830 Speaker 2: it does damage to the body politic. It does damage 229 00:12:13,870 --> 00:12:17,410 Speaker 2: at the social level. It makes us strangers to each 230 00:12:17,470 --> 00:12:19,980 Speaker 2: other so that we can't do politics together very well. 231 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: You opting out of or even having to opt into 232 00:12:22,980 --> 00:12:27,500 Speaker 2: your particular algorithm is not the point. The point is 233 00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:30,179 Speaker 2: that if lots of people have the algorithm in their 234 00:12:30,220 --> 00:12:32,990 Speaker 2: lives because they personally at an individual level prefer it 235 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,950 Speaker 2: and they find it enhances their user experience or whatever, 236 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: then the social damage will be the social damage and 237 00:12:39,580 --> 00:12:43,110 Speaker 2: your options have nothing to do with the matter. But 238 00:12:43,330 --> 00:12:46,010 Speaker 2: there is the conundrum, and I think the reason we're 239 00:12:46,030 --> 00:12:49,370 Speaker 2: seeing politics throw off so many sparks, so many radical 240 00:12:49,470 --> 00:12:52,810 Speaker 2: repositions and ideas, all these sorts of things, and I 241 00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:55,989 Speaker 2: suspect it's going to keep happening because we're in this 242 00:12:56,450 --> 00:12:59,900 Speaker 2: phase of we see that what we had is not 243 00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:02,860 Speaker 2: delivering for us anymore what we'd hoped. It's very hard 244 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 2: to imagine what's next or what the alternative would be. 245 00:13:06,090 --> 00:13:09,700 Speaker 1: So both sides of the political spectrum are looking at 246 00:13:09,740 --> 00:13:14,620 Speaker 1: the idea of what post-liberalism means. On the conservative side, 247 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: the most prominent person, probably the most powerful person that's 248 00:13:17,179 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: looking into this in any sort of detail is Vice 249 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: President J.D. Vance. 250 00:13:21,710 --> 00:13:25,010 Speaker 4: We on the right, on the sort of the post-liberal 251 00:13:25,090 --> 00:13:26,310 Speaker 4: right or the new right, or however we want to 252 00:13:26,330 --> 00:13:28,790 Speaker 4: define what it is, this sort of hodgepodge of people 253 00:13:28,809 --> 00:13:32,469 Speaker 4: and ideologies that have sort of collected themselves here today, 254 00:13:33,179 --> 00:13:37,020 Speaker 4: I think that we are really, really kidding ourselves about 255 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,700 Speaker 4: the weight of the challenge. And when we talk about 256 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 4: changing the regime, which is in fact a word that 257 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 4: I myself have used before. 258 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,540 Speaker 1: What does post-liberal politics look like? 259 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 5: It's very hard to say at a practical level. 260 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:57,790 Speaker 2: At a theoretical level, it looks like basically hugely increasing 261 00:13:57,830 --> 00:14:02,189 Speaker 2: executive power, the takeover of the liberal institutions of government 262 00:14:02,210 --> 00:14:04,870 Speaker 2: that are meant to diffuse power so that you can 263 00:14:05,410 --> 00:14:09,150 Speaker 2: impose a politics that is of the common good, and 264 00:14:09,190 --> 00:14:14,340 Speaker 2: that means sacrificing individual rights along the way, effectively is 265 00:14:14,380 --> 00:14:16,780 Speaker 2: what it would mean. Now, I don't know that that's possible, 266 00:14:16,980 --> 00:14:22,979 Speaker 2: especially within the quintessentially liberal institutions and framework and constitution 267 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,060 Speaker 2: of the United States, but that would be the dream. Now, 268 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: when I say that to you, that sounds really scary, 269 00:14:28,260 --> 00:14:30,380 Speaker 2: especially if you don't agree with their particular vision of 270 00:14:30,420 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: what the good is. That's why I think we confront 271 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,460 Speaker 2: or we experience these things ultimately as monsters. And the 272 00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: problem is I think the central argument, the central philosophical 273 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,900 Speaker 2: conundrum is that you are ultimately dealing with societies that 274 00:14:43,950 --> 00:14:48,350 Speaker 2: have been thoroughly transformed by liberalism and you now have 275 00:14:48,370 --> 00:14:51,050 Speaker 2: a mood across political spectrums that are trying to seek 276 00:14:51,090 --> 00:14:55,430 Speaker 2: a way out. The question then becomes, can liberalism find 277 00:14:55,470 --> 00:14:59,870 Speaker 2: a way of responding? Is there any kind of voice 278 00:14:59,910 --> 00:15:02,530 Speaker 2: from within liberalism, from within what we would call the 279 00:15:02,590 --> 00:15:05,430 Speaker 2: establishment or the mainstream or whatever, that can meet the 280 00:15:05,570 --> 00:15:09,770 Speaker 2: very real concerns that the monsters are grasping at? And 281 00:15:09,790 --> 00:15:12,010 Speaker 2: this is an important point, that they might be monstrous 282 00:15:12,050 --> 00:15:13,530 Speaker 2: in some of the things they're doing, but that doesn't 283 00:15:13,550 --> 00:15:15,710 Speaker 2: mean they're not scratching at something real or a concern 284 00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:19,670 Speaker 2: that's real. Can anything from the establishment meet the concerns 285 00:15:19,730 --> 00:15:22,230 Speaker 2: that exist at that deep philosophical level or deep. 286 00:15:22,050 --> 00:15:22,730 Speaker 5: Within the gut. 287 00:15:23,710 --> 00:15:26,090 Speaker 2: And that would require quite a redefinition of what liberalism 288 00:15:26,130 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 2: has done to this point. And I suppose that's the 289 00:15:28,270 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: challenge that's now before those who would identify or want 290 00:15:31,220 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 2: to preserve what liberalism has to offer. 291 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,860 Speaker 1: So an easy question to finish off on, Waleed. 292 00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 5: Oh, no. 293 00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:39,420 Speaker 1: What comes next? Do you have any hope that we 294 00:15:39,460 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: can heal from this period of chaos division with some 295 00:15:42,220 --> 00:15:46,500 Speaker 1: kind of fresh approach that serves us as a species 296 00:15:46,580 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: and societies within the species? better than what we're currently 297 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:53,470 Speaker 1: dealing with? I think you've always got to have hope. 298 00:15:54,380 --> 00:15:57,290 Speaker 2: But I think what I would say is hope doesn't 299 00:15:57,310 --> 00:16:01,030 Speaker 2: mean it'll be easy and it doesn't mean that it'll 300 00:16:01,050 --> 00:16:05,330 Speaker 2: be painless. And my sense, I'm not going to say 301 00:16:05,370 --> 00:16:07,310 Speaker 2: it's a prediction because that's hard to do in such 302 00:16:07,330 --> 00:16:10,550 Speaker 2: an unpredictable environment, but my sense is that we're just 303 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:12,220 Speaker 2: going to see more and more disruption. 304 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,300 Speaker 5: We're going to see more of these movements emerging. The 305 00:16:15,340 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 5: work thing has declined. 306 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: Now we're seeing the rise or the emergence of the 307 00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:22,300 Speaker 2: democratic socialist movement within the United States. I don't know 308 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:23,900 Speaker 2: how far that will go, but that's what's happening on 309 00:16:23,940 --> 00:16:26,250 Speaker 2: the left. And if that declines, it'll be something else, right? 310 00:16:26,610 --> 00:16:28,950 Speaker 2: And the Trumpism thing is in trouble, but the J.D. 311 00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:30,630 Speaker 2: Vance thing might be the next thing. And if not, 312 00:16:30,690 --> 00:16:32,330 Speaker 2: if that fails, there'll be the next. I think there 313 00:16:32,350 --> 00:16:35,630 Speaker 2: will constantly be these things. My guess is that if 314 00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:37,830 Speaker 2: this is going to be solved, it'll be through some 315 00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 2: kind of renewed recommitment and reorientation to that which binds us. 316 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,670 Speaker 2: So it'll be communal. It'll be community-focused, community-based things. And 317 00:16:48,690 --> 00:16:51,070 Speaker 2: it'll be some kind of retrieval, I think, of the 318 00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:54,150 Speaker 2: idea of a common good, an idea that there is 319 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: a thing that is good that is not about my 320 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,620 Speaker 2: interests versus your interests or playing off interests. 321 00:17:01,380 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 5: But a good at the social level. 322 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 2: Now, that's hugely controversial in practice because we'll disagree over that. 323 00:17:09,590 --> 00:17:12,310 Speaker 2: But I think it probably begins with us just becoming 324 00:17:12,369 --> 00:17:17,030 Speaker 2: more used to having that conversation. And maybe it takes decades, 325 00:17:17,070 --> 00:17:18,710 Speaker 2: maybe it takes a century. I don't know how long 326 00:17:18,750 --> 00:17:20,750 Speaker 2: it takes, but maybe something evolves out of that and 327 00:17:20,790 --> 00:17:21,810 Speaker 2: maybe that can be hopeful. 328 00:17:22,450 --> 00:17:23,250 Speaker 5: But I can't. 329 00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:27,430 Speaker 2: Put it any higher than kind of just hopeful speculation 330 00:17:27,450 --> 00:17:28,230 Speaker 2: at this point. 331 00:17:28,910 --> 00:17:31,500 Speaker 1: Well, in 2026, while it is always good to end 332 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: on a note of hope, thanks for your time. 333 00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:38,180 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I don't know if people will 334 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,070 Speaker 2: believe in the note, but there it is. 335 00:17:54,450 --> 00:17:57,450 Speaker 1: 7am is a daily show from Solstice Media. 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