Speaker 1: This is the second episode in a two party to view.
Speaker 1: The first part is called Part one. Had the Epstein
Speaker 1: Conspiracy turned Maga against Trump? It's in your feed now, Nick,
Speaker 1: If you go further back, it's well known that Donald
Speaker 1: Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were friends. Can you just trace
Speaker 1: their relationship for us?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does go back quite a while. They just
Speaker 2: both existed in the same social circles. They were in
Speaker 2: this sort of wealthy Manhattan elite and then also in
Speaker 2: this sort of wealthy Florida elite during the nineties and
Speaker 2: early two thousands, and so they were just swimming in
Speaker 2: the same pool and within that pool. It does seem
Speaker 2: like that they were legitimately friends. And there was a
Speaker 2: New York magazine profile of Epstein in the early two
Speaker 2: thousands in which Trump specifically called Epstein a terrific guy.
Speaker 3: He said, quote, I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy.
Speaker 3: He's a lot of fun to be with, and has
Speaker 3: even said that he likes beautiful women as much as
Speaker 3: I do, and many of them are on the younger side,
Speaker 3: No bad doubt about it.
Speaker 2: They did have a falling out. It was reportedly over
Speaker 2: this real estate deal that they both wanted to buy
Speaker 2: a mansion in Florida, and then that fell apart, and
Speaker 2: later on Trump said that he never liked him, was
Speaker 2: never really friends with him, banned him from mar A Lago.
Speaker 1: Well, I knew him like everybody in Palm Beach knew him.
Speaker 1: I mean people in Palm Beach knew him. He was
Speaker 1: a fixture in Palm Beach. I had a falling out
Speaker 1: with him a long time ago. I don't think I've
Speaker 1: spoken to him for fifteen years. I wasn't a fan.
Speaker 2: But there's a pretty documented long list of them having
Speaker 2: a lot of social ties.
Speaker 1: What are the chances that they're actually he's a least
Speaker 1: at Trump's names owned that least.
Speaker 2: You know, what makes a really good conspiracy is to
Speaker 2: begin with a kernel of truth and then blow it up.
Speaker 2: But you don't just have a kernel of truth here.
Speaker 2: You have much more than that this happened. This was
Speaker 2: a legitimate crime. It is a legitimate scandal, it's a
Speaker 2: legitimate tragedy. What happened to victims? And there is just
Speaker 2: more to know about this. Whether or not there is
Speaker 2: a physical list somewhere, I think is at this point
Speaker 2: relatively doubtful that there is just a perfect document in
Speaker 2: a Manila envelope somewhere that you can pick out and
Speaker 2: it will say exactly who everyone was and what they did,
Speaker 2: and Trump's name will be on it. But I think
Speaker 2: that there's enough open ended questions right now of who
Speaker 2: was involved with Epstein, who was person in a position
Speaker 2: of power, whether it's Trump, whether it's Bill Clinton, whatever
Speaker 2: side of the political spectrum that you're on, there are
Speaker 2: unanswered questions related to this. And regardless of if you're
Speaker 2: a quneon conspiracy theorist, or if you're somebody who is
Speaker 2: just interested in whether people in power are using it
Speaker 2: in impropriety ways or who are involved into various activity,
Speaker 2: that's something that I think kind of everybody can begin
Speaker 2: to agree on, which is that we've never really gotten
Speaker 2: the full story of this.
Speaker 1: Nick. Of all the controversies Trump has withered, right, delegations
Speaker 1: of civil finding against Team January Seeks being paged twice,
Speaker 1: why is this issue cutting through with Trump's supporters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that for a lot of those controversies
Speaker 2: and scandals that you mentioned, things that Trump had always
Speaker 2: denied from the get go, that his audience and his
Speaker 2: followers were really primed to disbelieve from day one with this,
Speaker 2: it's a little bit different. It's something that they have
Speaker 2: always really really cared about since the Epstein scandal broke.
Speaker 2: It's something that Republicans have harped on about relentlessly. It's
Speaker 2: something that magaworld media figed have harped on about relentlessly.
Speaker 2: And for followers of a more extreme conspiracy movement around QAnon,
Speaker 2: it's really central to their worldview. And so one of
Speaker 2: the things that people hate the most in politics of hypocrisy,
Speaker 2: and this is very, very blatantly hypocritical in the way
Speaker 2: that a lot of these figures were stoking this conspiracy
Speaker 2: and are now telling the average person to not worry
Speaker 2: about it and forget about it. In terms of what
Speaker 2: this will do to Trump's standing, I think that it
Speaker 2: will make him more associated with politicians the machine DC
Speaker 2: and so if Trump becomes more associated with that and
Speaker 2: less associated with his status as this outsider coming in
Speaker 2: breaking up the lies and bureaucracy and the so called
Speaker 2: swamp of Washington, people just might were not going to
Speaker 2: believe in this guy as this sort of hero narrative
Speaker 2: that has long been presented anymore.
Speaker 1: After the break, Rupert Murdoch arrives on the scene. Nick.
Speaker 1: Late last week, the Wall Street Journal published a letter
Speaker 1: they say he's from Trump to Epstein. Trump has now
Speaker 1: threatened to sue the newspaper and Rupert Murdoch over it.
Speaker 1: He also said he's directed his Attorney General, Pam Bondi
Speaker 1: to release small files about Epstein to the public. So
Speaker 1: what was in the letter that sit him off?
Speaker 2: There was a birthday book of well wishes around two
Speaker 2: thousand and three sent to Epstein, and Trump wrote in
Speaker 2: this book and his message to Jeffrey Epstein for his
Speaker 2: birthday quote.
Speaker 4: This is from the Wall Street Journal. The letter bearing
Speaker 4: Trump's name, which was reviewed why their journal, is body
Speaker 4: like others in the album. It contains several lines of
Speaker 4: typri and text, framed by the outline of a naked woman,
Speaker 4: which appears to be hand drawn with a heavy marker.
Speaker 4: A pair of small arcs denotes the woman's breasts, and
Speaker 4: the future president's signature is a squiggly donald blow her waist,
Speaker 4: mimicking pubic hair. The letter concludes, happy birthday and may
Speaker 4: every day be another wonderful secret.
Speaker 2: Trump has denied that message and says that it's fake,
Speaker 2: but it appears well sourced, and it appears fairly damning
Speaker 2: in terms of the collection of evidence that they have
Speaker 2: this history together, and.
Speaker 1: So the whole thing is moving quickly and is far
Speaker 1: from over. How important is it for Trump right now
Speaker 1: to ensure total loyalty from the paper around him?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Trump really prizes loyalty. I think that's
Speaker 2: one of the traits that he may value above all
Speaker 2: else when it comes to people he works with. And
Speaker 2: so so far people have been largely falling in line
Speaker 2: within his administration, and he is going to say, look,
Speaker 2: you know, now is the time to rally around me.
Speaker 2: This is a moment in which we can't have anybody
Speaker 2: be speaking out against the administration. So far, Pam Bondi
Speaker 2: has been towing the line very well in that respect,
Speaker 2: and Trump has praised her for it. Trump has said
Speaker 2: she's doing an amazing job.
Speaker 4: He's really done a very good job.
Speaker 3: And I think that.
Speaker 1: When you look at it, you'll understand that. I would
Speaker 1: like to see that also, But I think the Attorney
Speaker 1: general the credibility is very important, and you want credible.
Speaker 4: Evidence or something like that, and I think the Attorney
Speaker 4: General has handled it very well.
Speaker 2: And so you know, as long as she continues to
Speaker 2: be a sort of heat shield for him, she's a
Speaker 2: pretty useful person for him to have around.
Speaker 1: So his team looks like they're reminding loyal. But if
Speaker 1: he's Spie Dessert seem out of these what impact will
Speaker 1: that have when his political feature.
Speaker 2: While Trump is in power, while he's not campaigning for
Speaker 2: anything right now, he does need this base, He needs
Speaker 2: his support. There is still a tendency of Trump to
Speaker 2: really care about his popularity and really care about whether
Speaker 2: people like him. And there's been you know, internal polling
Speaker 2: from Democrats that show that this is resonating with voters
Speaker 2: and that if not, you know, switching them to Democrat,
Speaker 2: it just may not make them as willing to vote
Speaker 2: Republican come midterms. It may make them shy away and
Speaker 2: make them disenfranchised with Trump if they feel that this
Speaker 2: is sort of a false promise that he made, or
Speaker 2: that the belief that they had that he would release
Speaker 2: the files and prove that he was the savior that
Speaker 2: was promised never materializes. So I think that there's a
Speaker 2: real risk. I think that things are so closely fought
Speaker 2: in American politics right now that even losing a small
Speaker 2: portion of your base is potentially devastating, just because the
Speaker 2: margins are so thin on a lot of elections and
Speaker 2: a lot of policy votes, and so yeah, it could
Speaker 2: have a real impact, especially as he tries to push
Speaker 2: policies through that he needs full support of Republican lawmakers for.
Speaker 2: And if there are people who are on the hard right,
Speaker 2: far right side of the party who are beholden to
Speaker 2: a magabase that is really upset about this, they may
Speaker 2: not as readily side with Republican initiatives if they can't
Speaker 2: get what they want and prove to their base that
Speaker 2: they're working towards sort of uncovering the Epstein conspiracy. I
Speaker 2: think Trump's risk right now is that he does see
Speaker 2: more defections, he does see more people who break with
Speaker 2: him on this, and that people don't believe what he's
Speaker 2: trying to feed them of. This isn't a big deal.
Speaker 2: I know nothing about this, I was never involved. It's
Speaker 2: all fake and it's tough for people to believe that
Speaker 2: when presented with the idea that Trump turned his back
Speaker 2: on them. And I think that that betrayal would really
Speaker 2: resonate with a lot of people who previously were extremely
Speaker 2: diehard about supporting.
Speaker 1: Nick. Thank you once again for coming on and speaking
Speaker 1: to us.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Also in the years liberally to Jeremy Rockcliffe has claimed
Speaker 1: victory in the Tasmanian state election after his party secured
Speaker 1: more seats than Labor the Liberals from fourteen seats to
Speaker 1: Labour's nine, with neither party reaching the eighteen seats required
Speaker 1: to govern outright. Despite that, Rockliff says who lost the
Speaker 1: governor to recommission his government, describing Labour's result as a
Speaker 1: repudiation of his rivals. And Latham has rejected reports about
Speaker 1: his alleged behavior towards former partner Natalie Matthews, calling them false,
Speaker 1: reckless and irresponsible. Matthews is seeking in apprehended domestic violence
Speaker 1: order against Latham, alleging a sustained pattern of abuse and manipulation.
Speaker 1: Latham says he has broken no law and police are
Speaker 1: not laid charges. His parliamentary colleagues have also criticized him
Speaker 1: over derogatory messages he sent about female MPs. I'm Daniel James.
Speaker 1: This is seven am. Thanks for listening.