Speaker 1: I get a team. I hope you're great. Our favorite
Speaker 1: one of our favorite geeks. I better not say favorite geeks,
Speaker 1: because we have quite a few, but definitely our favorite
Speaker 1: professor of cellular and molecular biology. Did I get that right,
Speaker 1: Doc rov yep, that's close enough. Definitely that is back,
Speaker 1: Doctor Bill Sullivan. Welcome back to the U projects. Good
Speaker 1: to see you again, sir.
Speaker 2: Good to see you now you and RTD coming along.
Speaker 1: Don't ask it. Well, I'm at the writing stage, so
Speaker 1: I've done all my all, my research has done all
Speaker 1: my Now it's a different system over here, but yeah,
Speaker 1: so all my all my studies and research is done
Speaker 1: on my data is in. I'm just writing papers now
Speaker 1: and writing I've got to I've got to have two,
Speaker 1: preferably three papers published, and I've got to write my thesis,
Speaker 1: which is about eighty thousand words. I'm doing all of that.
Speaker 1: You have to get what's called academic milestones here where
Speaker 1: you've got to stand in front of a panel in
Speaker 1: my university, Monash University, in the neuroscience neurocyclab you've got
Speaker 1: to do four times in front of them and get
Speaker 1: four green lights, which I've finished. I'm done, so I'm
Speaker 1: kind of on the home straight, so I hope, I
Speaker 1: hope to hand everything in in about four months. But
Speaker 1: then you've got to get feedback and so we'll see.
Speaker 2: But it's a process. But congratulations are making it so far.
Speaker 2: The AX defense is probably one of the biggest hurdles.
Speaker 1: Do you know what for somebody who last week, So
Speaker 1: we're recording this Monday, eleven thirty four Australian time or
Speaker 1: Melbourne time anyway. Last week I did four presentations, like
Speaker 1: thousands of people I spoke to last week. Two of
Speaker 1: the events were nearly a thousand people at each event.
Speaker 1: I'm so comfortable up there. It's just my thing. That's
Speaker 1: like my happy place. Blah blah blah. I stand in
Speaker 1: front of all professors. I am so fucking terrified. I
Speaker 1: am like I have because I don't you know, well,
Speaker 1: it's not my natural habitat right. And obviously I'm a
Speaker 1: lot more comfortable and familiar now November one, it'll be
Speaker 1: five years, so it's more normal and more natural now.
Speaker 1: But oh my god, Doc, it's like for me, for
Speaker 1: somebody who's relatively confident talking and doing what I do
Speaker 1: for a living, You've never seen anyone more inept. You
Speaker 1: would never pick that I'm a professional speaker. Watching me
Speaker 1: in front of those four.
Speaker 2: It's a very different audience. You go from a bunch
Speaker 2: of people who might be nodding their heads to a
Speaker 2: bunch of people who are shaking it the other way
Speaker 2: and just looking for, you know, the holes in your knowledge.
Speaker 2: And once you lead a little it's like sharks, right,
Speaker 2: they sense that little bit of blood and they will
Speaker 2: go after that topic that you might not be so
Speaker 2: familiar with. It's rigorous.
Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I think they were quite kind to me,
Speaker 1: but at the same time they're obviously I mean, their
Speaker 1: job is not to make me feel good. Their job
Speaker 1: is not to nod or smile or agree of course
Speaker 1: one percent right, And you've probably done lots of presentations
Speaker 1: where your audience is at least somewhere between somewhat receptive
Speaker 1: and what we would call warm. Like a warm audience
Speaker 1: is they want to hear you, they like you, you know,
Speaker 1: it's all round. It's a pretty good experience. But when
Speaker 1: you stand in front of an academic panel, I call
Speaker 1: it going to court, because it's like going to court.
Speaker 1: You're yeah, you're just another student. Of course, you're just
Speaker 1: another student and you're just number whatever number you are,
Speaker 1: and you're doing this doctoral program and you're researching this
Speaker 1: stuff and ready set off you go. So but very
Speaker 1: good for me because you know it's I think that
Speaker 1: for me anyway, that getting in a different place, in
Speaker 1: a different environment, being really uncomfortable and also being to
Speaker 1: be honest, especially initially somewhat inept, you know, learning to
Speaker 1: do academia after twenty years away from university and I
Speaker 1: mean a different level. Obviously for me, it was just
Speaker 1: a massive learning curve. And I said this the other day.
Speaker 1: I was talking this big audience about insecurity and self
Speaker 1: doubt and overthinking and imposter syndrome, and I said, I know,
Speaker 1: I look confident and we were talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: just all this kind of stuff. I said, honestly, for
Speaker 1: the first four months of my PhD, the thing I
Speaker 1: thought about most is how do I get out of
Speaker 1: this without being totally publicly humiliated, because I don't know
Speaker 1: if I can do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough, but as one of my former mentors
Speaker 2: told me, you know, the process has value. These individuals
Speaker 2: aren't up there to be mean or cruel. It's to
Speaker 2: expose what you know and what you don't know. And
Speaker 2: it's easier to say this than actually do it. But
Speaker 2: that is a worthwhile process because when you see the
Speaker 2: gaps in your knowledge, that's a learning experience and it
Speaker 2: tells you what you need to focus on, what you
Speaker 2: need to do a deeper dive on, and it tells
Speaker 2: you what you do know. So that's that's the part
Speaker 2: of the process that's good. And from someone who's in
Speaker 2: the sciences, you know, if I'm out talking about science
Speaker 2: to a general to the general public, and just like science,
Speaker 2: communicating or telling them really fascinating aspects about biology or
Speaker 2: what have you, that's a whole different ballgame than talking
Speaker 2: to people about your own research and what you think
Speaker 2: you discovered in the lab. Because they are looking for problems,
Speaker 2: they are looking for flaws, and that is for the
Speaker 2: benefit of moving science forward. It's not to be mean,
Speaker 2: it's not to be cruel. It is to try to
Speaker 2: get to the truth or as close as humans can
Speaker 2: possibly approximate it. And in the science, you know that
Speaker 2: that in the sciences, it's critically important to have people
Speaker 2: more or less rip your work apart, because if you
Speaker 2: are promoting a certain discovery and it's wrong that's going
Speaker 2: to damage the entire field.
Speaker 1: Yeahcent agree. And it's I'm lucky because because I'm both
Speaker 1: a student and you know, a speaker, so I get
Speaker 1: to I get to learn in a different way and
Speaker 1: understand and research and have these kind of light bulb
Speaker 1: moments and revelations, and then I go to talk, you know,
Speaker 1: like the next day, I got to talk to a
Speaker 1: room full of people, and I can I can unpas
Speaker 1: my own research and my own not only the research,
Speaker 1: but also my own thoughts and insights in a manner
Speaker 1: where like you said, now you're being the science communicator
Speaker 1: and you're trying to share these what can be complicated
Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas and constructs in a way which not
Speaker 1: only makes sense to people, but perhaps is a genesis
Speaker 1: for them to go and explore more. You know, Like
Speaker 1: even when I just say to people, do you ever
Speaker 1: think about how you think and why you think the
Speaker 1: way you think? And like the origin story of your thinking?
Speaker 1: You know? And people like this, so I don't, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and do you ever think really deeply think about how
Speaker 1: other people think? And without judging or critics, but just
Speaker 1: why does she think the way that she think? Where
Speaker 1: does that come from? And what is she thinking right now?
Speaker 1: And what is her experience not mine? You know, we're
Speaker 1: in the same conversation but not the same experience. I
Speaker 1: wonder what her experience is. And so when you know that.
Speaker 1: I don't know who originally said it, but Stephen Covey said,
Speaker 1: seek first to understand and then to be understood. You know,
Speaker 1: just that if I can start when I'm in an
Speaker 1: interpersonal exchange, whether it's me and one hundred or me
Speaker 1: in one or me in a podcast audience like we
Speaker 1: are now, and I can try to get some insight
Speaker 1: into who I'm talking to and I care about that,
Speaker 1: then I'm probably going to do a better job at
Speaker 1: building connection and rapport and you know trust, I guess
Speaker 1: over time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well that was one of the major motivations
Speaker 2: of writing my book, Pleased to Meet Me, was trying
Speaker 2: to understand not only myself, but other people who don't
Speaker 2: operate the same way I do, or don't believe or
Speaker 2: think the same things. I think a lot of us
Speaker 2: and I'm not trying to, you know, you know, be
Speaker 2: mean to anyone here, but I think a lot of
Speaker 2: us just walk through life without thinking about such questions.
Speaker 2: We're kind of on automatic pilot zombie kind of if
Speaker 2: you will. And all it takes sometimes is one person
Speaker 2: to say, have you ever considered why you do this
Speaker 2: particular behavior or why someone else would never do such
Speaker 2: a thing? You know, just you know, those basic questions
Speaker 2: going back to the Greek philosophers who said no they self,
Speaker 2: which is something that can't be said enough in you know,
Speaker 2: during the education process. And I don't think a lot
Speaker 2: of people let it sink in.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, like you're saying you're not doing it,
Speaker 1: saying it to be mean, and you're not. I'm the same.
Speaker 1: It's like it's self awareness, not self loathing. It's like
Speaker 1: just yeah, you know, it's like do I get things
Speaker 1: wrong all the time regularly, Okay, so don't beat yourself up.
Speaker 1: Just recognize or try to recognize what you're doing wrong
Speaker 1: or where you're flawed, or where your ideas really don't
Speaker 1: match the reality or the facts. And then then you know,
Speaker 1: open the awareness door and the humility door and the
Speaker 1: student's mind like just you know, it's it's that need
Speaker 1: to be right that is such a psychological and emotional
Speaker 1: and educational handicap. It's like absolutely, you know, if you
Speaker 1: have to be right, good luck being a good student.
Speaker 2: Yeah or yeah. You can get yourself into a lot
Speaker 2: of trouble that way. And I would never want to
Speaker 2: go through life with that kind of attitude because there's
Speaker 2: nothing more to learn, right, You're not growing, You're kind
Speaker 2: of just stunted and you're fruzen there. And to me,
Speaker 2: that's a really boring way to live.
Speaker 1: Well, I think also, Doc, you know a lot of
Speaker 1: people to your point of living kind of on autopilot
Speaker 1: or groundhog day. And it's not an offense because I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people realize that they are to
Speaker 1: an extent living unconsciously in that they tend to do
Speaker 1: the thing today that they did yesterday in the day
Speaker 1: before and week before, the thing that didn't really work
Speaker 1: the last hundred times. They are still doing it. You know.
Speaker 1: And my listeners will be sick of me saying this,
Speaker 1: but I don't think I've said it to you. It's
Speaker 1: like one of the one of the common conversations I
Speaker 1: have with people when I'm sitting down one on one
Speaker 1: is you know, they will say to me something like,
Speaker 1: you know where they are in their life, their job,
Speaker 1: their journey, their health, their whatever they say oh, this
Speaker 1: wasn't my plan. You know where they're currently at. This
Speaker 1: wasn't my plan. And I say, oh, okay, can I
Speaker 1: see the plan? And they're like what, I go the plan?
Speaker 1: Can I see it? And they're like, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: I said? You just said this wasn't my plan. Can
Speaker 1: I see the plan? And they're like, well, there's no plan.
Speaker 1: You know, there's no plan plan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's yeah, I get what you're saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's like and we all do. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's been periods of my time where periods of my time,
Speaker 1: periods of my life where I was doing things that,
Speaker 1: especially with my body and my food because I had
Speaker 1: food addictions and I had all kinds of bullshit emotional
Speaker 1: and psychological and sociological and behavioral stuff going on where
Speaker 1: I was for extended periods of time doing things that
Speaker 1: didn't work. And the reason that I did it, among
Speaker 1: others was one of the reasons was, you know, because
Speaker 1: it gave me instant gratification, you know, so overcoming that
Speaker 1: as well, that need to get pleasure right now, and
Speaker 1: because I'll fix it soon, but not today, I'll fix
Speaker 1: it soon. I'll start Monday I'll start January one, but
Speaker 1: not today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is really hard because that's a little bit
Speaker 2: against the grain of human nature when we evolved long ago.
Speaker 2: And I know I see this a lot, so I
Speaker 2: hope your regular listeners are not getting tired of me
Speaker 2: ramble on about how important it is to evaluate our
Speaker 2: current behavior in the context of what our ancestors long
Speaker 2: ago did. Because we lived as hunter gatherers for hundreds
Speaker 2: of thousands of years, so those behavioral patterns are deeply
Speaker 2: ingrained into our brain and dictate a lot of our
Speaker 2: actions at a subconscious level. So we very often need
Speaker 2: to step back and analyze our behavior and why we're
Speaker 2: doing it that way. And when you think about hunter
Speaker 2: gatherer lifestyles and you can you can read lots of books.
Speaker 2: It's fascinating literature, but you really gain a lot of
Speaker 2: insights into maybe some of the irrational things that human
Speaker 2: beings do, or some of these automatic habits that you're
Speaker 2: talking about that obviously aren't good for us, and yet
Speaker 2: we continue to do them time and time again. These
Speaker 2: are patterns that if you extrapolate back to our ancient past,
Speaker 2: you can see those sorts of behaviors and since they
Speaker 2: were with us for about one hundred thousand years. And
Speaker 2: you know, we've only civilization has been around as we
Speaker 2: know it only for about ten thousand years, which is
Speaker 2: the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. We really
Speaker 2: haven't come to grips with the modern world and how
Speaker 2: we're evolutionarily designed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. I wanted to. Okay, so by
Speaker 1: the way, everyone, we haven't done this. We're going to
Speaker 1: get to it. I want the second half of the
Speaker 1: show to be all about doctor Bale's books. So it's
Speaker 1: called Please to Meet Me, Jean's Germs and the curious
Speaker 1: forces that make us who we are. I'm listening to
Speaker 1: it at the moment in between my other stuff. But
Speaker 1: I'm not just saying this because you're here. I was
Speaker 1: actually talking to somebody this morning. They said, what are
Speaker 1: you doing, and I said, I've got our bunch of
Speaker 1: stuff on you being one of the things I add
Speaker 1: on in Inverted Commas, and I said, you've got to
Speaker 1: read or listen to his book. It's it's it is
Speaker 1: really brilliant, and it is what I love about your book.
Speaker 1: There's such good use of humor and storytelling, and anyone,
Speaker 1: anyone can understand it, like it's relevant for everyone. Like
Speaker 1: there's really nobody that it's not relevant for because we've
Speaker 1: all got we've all got Jens germs and bloody, we
Speaker 1: all have bodies, and we've all got to navigate and
Speaker 1: negotiate health and wellness and life and performance. So I
Speaker 1: prefer listening, but either buy a hard copy or have
Speaker 1: a listen everyone. But I want to come to that
Speaker 1: in a moment because I've got a few questions out
Speaker 1: of the book, or a few topics out of the
Speaker 1: book I want to cover with you. But I wanted
Speaker 1: to know your thoughts on And this is probably not
Speaker 1: something you talk about a lot or think about a lot,
Speaker 1: but it intersects with my world and your world. There's
Speaker 1: a bit of a bro science term that which is
Speaker 1: biological age. It is used legitimately in science, but also
Speaker 1: you know, like there are some really crappy protocols that
Speaker 1: people do are a bioage test in twelve minutes, doc,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they go, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm forty eight, but my biological age is thirty two
Speaker 1: because they've done I don't know, a questionnaire, and you know,
Speaker 1: some some really basic not very scientifically valid test from
Speaker 1: one of a better term, But what are your thoughts
Speaker 1: around one? You know?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 1: And if anyone's thinking, what do I mean some chronological age?
Speaker 1: Obviously I'm sixty one. Biological age, in I guess Layman's terms,
Speaker 1: is you know how my body works in inverted commas,
Speaker 1: from a functional point of view, from a health point
Speaker 1: of view, from a bunch, but basically how well my
Speaker 1: body works. And I guess biologically, physiologically and functionally how
Speaker 1: my body is going for my age. It's probably not
Speaker 1: a great explanation, but it's in the ballpark. But what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts around biological college versus chronological age? Is
Speaker 1: it term that you use or not?
Speaker 2: It's not a term that I use or come across
Speaker 2: very often, But I get the gist of what the
Speaker 2: idea is about. You know, you have your however many
Speaker 2: laps you went around the sun versus what sort of
Speaker 2: health attributes you exhibit? And I think, you know, being
Speaker 2: a scientist about this sort of thing, I'm very skeptical
Speaker 2: about these sorts of claims because they don't seem to
Speaker 2: be backed up by evidence of any kind. They just
Speaker 2: seem to be someone's idea. It reminds me of the
Speaker 2: whole dog years. I mean, you can say, oh, my
Speaker 2: dog's eight, but in human years, that's like one hundred
Speaker 2: and ten, So my dog's really old. No, your dog's eight,
Speaker 2: and your dog is eight years old and it acts
Speaker 2: like an eight year old dog. You know, you don't
Speaker 2: need to translate it into human years to understand better
Speaker 2: what the dog is going to be like. So when
Speaker 2: someone has a chronological chronological age of let's just say fifty,
Speaker 2: nice round number, and they want to say that I
Speaker 2: have a biological age of thirty two, what does that
Speaker 2: mean exactly? And I don't think you can paint it
Speaker 2: with such a broad brush because there may be some
Speaker 2: features of you that feel younger okay, yes, but there's
Speaker 2: other features that you can't turn the clock back on,
Speaker 2: you know. So I would really like to scrutinize the
Speaker 2: algorithms or the equations that they use to deduce what
Speaker 2: a biological age is and what in fact that what
Speaker 2: the definition of that truly is, because I'll be honest
Speaker 2: with you, Craig on you know, on some days I
Speaker 2: feel like my chronological age is far less than my
Speaker 2: biological age. Yeah, but then I have other days where
Speaker 2: it's flip flop. So I think it's a little transient
Speaker 2: if you will. It's it's not like a stable concept. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: depends on how you're feeling, what you eat, you know what,
Speaker 2: what illness you might have. Who knows one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I feel like, sorry about my blurred head. I don't
Speaker 1: know what's going on there. I feel yeah, like my
Speaker 1: shoulders feel like they're about one hundred and ten years old.
Speaker 2: Both my rotag in dog ears they are only five, So.
Speaker 1: That's very funny. Yeah, both my rotator cuffs should be
Speaker 1: in an old person's home. But you know, like my
Speaker 1: actual muscle strength is probably atypical for my age. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right, there are some things that depending on you know,
Speaker 1: how it's measured and all of that. But I've just
Speaker 1: got it here in front of me. And again, this
Speaker 1: is this is not great science. Estimating biological aid. It
Speaker 1: involves measuring a variety of biomarkers and factors that reflect
Speaker 1: the body's physiological condition, which may differ from chronological age.
Speaker 1: The key variables and factors commonly used to estimate bioage
Speaker 1: so epigenetic markers, DNA methylation, telemeal length, inflammatory markers, c
Speaker 1: reactive protein inter lukens, metabolic health, glucose metabolism, cholesterol levels.
Speaker 1: But even with all this mitochondrial function, physical and functional movements,
Speaker 1: cardiovascular health, blood pressure, arterial stiffness, body composition, mass, fat
Speaker 1: hormone levels, bah bah. But even with that, I don't
Speaker 1: know who developed that and whether or not, you know,
Speaker 1: those protocols have been validated in any shape or form.
Speaker 1: But yeah, but it I think the fact remains that sometimes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: our level of function is older or younger in inverted
Speaker 1: commas than our laps around the sun.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I know my biological age goes down with
Speaker 2: a cup of coffee, so you know who knows coffee?
Speaker 1: Take me mind changes over the day. I'm about forty
Speaker 1: when I get up. Yeah, I'm about ninety two by
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock.
Speaker 2: There you go. Just before we leave this topic for
Speaker 2: the for the benefit of the listeners, there may be
Speaker 2: something too, like individual markers that you spoke about, like
Speaker 2: telomere length. Telomere integrity is definitely correlated with cellular aging.
Speaker 2: But how all these biomarkers interact with one another. We're
Speaker 2: just in the infancy of understanding all of those complexities. Okay,
Speaker 2: So I would hate for someone to hear that they
Speaker 2: have a biomarker that makes them, you know, that is
Speaker 2: supposed to be unhealthy or only seen in elderly people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you don't want to mislead them with that sort of information.
Speaker 2: And by the same token, you don't want to mislead
Speaker 2: someone who genuine little like might need to take a
Speaker 2: statin or something. But hey, your chronal, your biological age
Speaker 2: is much younger, and then they might not have they
Speaker 2: might avoid a life saving medicine you know that older
Speaker 2: people take. So I would I would be very wary
Speaker 2: about those sorts of comparisons because we simply don't know
Speaker 2: enough about how the body works holistically. When when you
Speaker 2: talk about these sorts of biomarkers, now that said, there
Speaker 2: might be truth to one or two of them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I think I think one of the
Speaker 1: dangers right now, and I'm probably guilty of this as
Speaker 1: well a little bit, is that a lot of people
Speaker 1: get their information from Instagram or Facebook or or YouTube
Speaker 1: or the Bloody Youth Project or do you know what
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 2: It's like, and there's irresponsible podcasters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but I mean it is true
Speaker 1: and you need to and all. So then we get
Speaker 1: people who have a little bit of knowledge about an
Speaker 1: area but not much knowledge like zero knowledge and other
Speaker 1: other related and important areas, you know. So it's like
Speaker 1: some people might know a lot whatever, for example, about nutrition,
Speaker 1: but nothing about sleep or training or physiological adaptation in
Speaker 1: other ways, or stress or anxiety or the impact of
Speaker 1: environment on the body or you know, and so all
Speaker 1: of their their solution is all food based, you know,
Speaker 1: which again is looking through a particular prism you.
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, buyer beware, you know. And it's getting tough
Speaker 2: nowadays to discern in some cases who really knows their
Speaker 2: stuff and who doesn't. So, you know, it helps if
Speaker 2: people are being honest, but when people are chasing lakes
Speaker 2: and follows and advertiser money, there's that integrity kind of
Speaker 2: goes down the dream. Sometimes I always fall back on
Speaker 2: looking for the experts who actually know their field very well.
Speaker 2: So like if you and I started launching into a
Speaker 2: talk on let's say, you know, black holes or something
Speaker 2: like that, I am not qualified to talk about that.
Speaker 2: You know. I can throw a whole bunch of garbage
Speaker 2: and jargon around that reflects my superficial knowledge of these things,
Speaker 2: but that's not something I'm qualified to talk about it.
Speaker 2: We can still have a conversation, but people would have
Speaker 2: to know, Hey, he knows about epigenetics and genes and stuff,
Speaker 2: but he knows about as much as black holes as
Speaker 2: you know that dog he was talking about earlier.
Speaker 1: So well, if we start talking about teleportation, then my
Speaker 1: ears are going to prick up, because that would be
Speaker 1: very good.
Speaker 2: That would be cool.
Speaker 1: Let's lean in a little bit to your book. So
Speaker 1: the tenth time, everyone, please meet me germs and the
Speaker 1: curious forces that makes who we are, Doctor Bill Sullivan.
Speaker 1: So there's a bunch of themes in the book and
Speaker 1: a bunch of kind of subject matter that you that
Speaker 1: you cover before I open the door and go tell
Speaker 1: us about this. Is there are there particular thing like
Speaker 1: which do you want to do it this way where
Speaker 1: I just riff and then you tell us about that,
Speaker 1: Or are there three or four or five key things
Speaker 1: out of the book that you would just rather that
Speaker 1: you know are broadly relevant you want to share with us.
Speaker 1: I don't mind which way we go.
Speaker 2: Ad or mind either. Just to maybe explain a little
Speaker 2: bit to the audience that the mean theme of the
Speaker 2: book It's kind of like an updated user manual for
Speaker 2: the human body, not just in a physical way, but
Speaker 2: in a mental way as well. Because what got me
Speaker 2: interested in it stems from the work we do in
Speaker 2: my research lab, you know, where we study a parasite
Speaker 2: that infects a billion and over a billion people and,
Speaker 2: according to some studies, can affect their behaviors. So this,
Speaker 2: you know, put that light bulb over my head. What
Speaker 2: other things might be in our body that control us
Speaker 2: or influence us that we don't know about, you know,
Speaker 2: because we need to educate ourselves about how these forces
Speaker 2: work individually and collectively, so that we can understand who
Speaker 2: we are, why we do the things we do, and
Speaker 2: just as importantly, why don't others act the same way
Speaker 2: we do. Why do they have different beliefs, you know,
Speaker 2: different habits and so on. So that got me to
Speaker 2: thinking about genes. That's a pretty obvious hidden feature. You know,
Speaker 2: most people don't know what genes they have, and most
Speaker 2: people don't realize that genes go far beyond our physical makeup.
Speaker 2: They govern a lot of things about our personality and
Speaker 2: behavior and can be quite strong influencers. It's not to
Speaker 2: say we're genetically predetermined by any means. Because the second
Speaker 2: force I talk about as epigenetics, which is how your
Speaker 2: environment can like turn volume knobs of those genes up
Speaker 2: and down. So there's certainly room within you your genetic
Speaker 2: limitations if you will, to change things, so the environment
Speaker 2: can be critically important. And then I talk about microbes
Speaker 2: like the one I mentioned earlier, the parasite and the
Speaker 2: brain that might affect activity. Well, lo and behold, that's
Speaker 2: just a tip of the iceberg. You know, there's three
Speaker 2: pounds of bacteria, fungi and other microbes in our gut
Speaker 2: that increasingly evidence shows has a profound effect on our
Speaker 2: physical and mental health. And these studies are just mind
Speaker 2: blowing and really create an entire new arena for potential
Speaker 2: medical intervention. And of course there's evolutionary ghosts. You mentioned
Speaker 2: this a little bit at the beginning of the podcast, Craig,
Speaker 2: where a lot of our behavior is embedded with in
Speaker 2: evolutionary psychology. So a lot of the things we do,
Speaker 2: a lot of the things we worry about, a lot
Speaker 2: of the ways we eat, what sort of foods we're
Speaker 2: attracted to, what sort of bodies we're attracted to, all
Speaker 2: have a deep evolutionary past, and it is remarkably insightful
Speaker 2: to keep that in mind when you're trying to understand
Speaker 2: human behavior. So the book tries to tie all that together,
Speaker 2: these multiple forces operating under the hood, because if we
Speaker 2: understand them, then we can understand ourselves and one another
Speaker 2: in a more productive fashion.
Speaker 1: So, given the influence and the impact about biology ad genetics,
Speaker 1: do you think we have as much control over our
Speaker 1: choices and behaviors as we think we do.
Speaker 2: I was really hoping that was the case when I
Speaker 2: began the research for this book, because I liked to
Speaker 2: think that there's still a great deal of agency associated
Speaker 2: with being human. And this has been debated for a
Speaker 2: very long time, and there's, you know, debates that are
Speaker 2: still raging today. Some people are we don't have any
Speaker 2: free will whatsoever. Everything is predetermined. We live in a
Speaker 2: deterministic universe, so you know, how can we possibly have
Speaker 2: free will? And then there's others that says we've evolved
Speaker 2: to a point with such a sophisticated brain and ability
Speaker 2: to make decisions, weigh pros and cons and all that,
Speaker 2: that clearly there is some level of free will. And
Speaker 2: there's a whole bunch of people in the middle, and
Speaker 2: I think I don't fall in the middle of that debate.
Speaker 2: I skew towards less and less free will, but I
Speaker 2: would still like to leave that door open. It just
Speaker 2: feels natural to me. But I know that that is
Speaker 2: not evidence. That is not a good, you know, experimental
Speaker 2: way to prove a case for free will. Well, just
Speaker 2: because you feel like you have it. Our brain makes
Speaker 2: us feel many things it likes to trick us, so
Speaker 2: that could very well be another one of the brain's tricks.
Speaker 2: But like I said as I was researching this book,
Speaker 2: when you think about, you know, you don't control what
Speaker 2: genes you were born with. You don't control your prenatal environment,
Speaker 2: which alters a lot of the expression of those genes.
Speaker 2: You don't control the environment you had as a young child,
Speaker 2: which configures the settings on these genes, and a lot
Speaker 2: of data says that that can't change, you know, or
Speaker 2: at least can't change much after it's been pre set.
Speaker 2: And then you think about the evolutionary constraints that were
Speaker 2: under So at the end of the day, long winded
Speaker 2: answer to your question, but it's a really insightful philosophical
Speaker 2: question that I think people should talk about more. Is
Speaker 2: that I think the circle of free will has shrunk
Speaker 2: dramatically from this from when I went into the research
Speaker 2: on this book to when I finished writing it. But
Speaker 2: I still feel like I could be a bird in
Speaker 2: the cage, you know, and there's still a little room
Speaker 2: to walk around and sim songs and be happy. So
Speaker 2: that's that's what gets me through the day.
Speaker 1: And also, yeah, well one that's very insightful, too mildly
Speaker 1: terrifying to think that I don't have any come just
Speaker 1: I'm just at the whim of my genetics.
Speaker 2: You are a bird in the cage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think also, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: one of the things too, is like what is what
Speaker 1: is comfortable for us? You know? It's like you said,
Speaker 1: you'd like to think that or I feel like and
Speaker 1: that's the thing, isn't It's like what I want to
Speaker 1: be true might not be true, and it might not
Speaker 1: suit my story and it might not suit my you know,
Speaker 1: emotional kind of whatever, you know, But that's that's the thing.
Speaker 1: Could you give us an example, I think you said
Speaker 1: something like obviously talking about epigenetics, the way that our
Speaker 1: our correct me if I've fuck anything up, because I'm
Speaker 1: not you, but we can turn up or down the
Speaker 1: volume on certain genes depending on environment might have that.
Speaker 1: Could you give a practical example of how something might
Speaker 1: be affected by environment, like a real world Like when
Speaker 1: you say that, I'm like, I'm trying to think, what
Speaker 1: does that look like in the real world for one
Speaker 1: of our listeners.
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, So there there's many many examples out there.
Speaker 2: In the book goes into quite a few some of
Speaker 2: the more tangible examples that I think, you know, based
Speaker 2: on the talks they've given that people hook up to
Speaker 2: or that you know you're just exercise can really alter
Speaker 2: genus expression in the muscle groups and some of the
Speaker 2: organs that are benefiting from exercise. So, for example, there
Speaker 2: was a nicely controlled study I forget what country this
Speaker 2: was done in, but people were asked the subjects of
Speaker 2: this study were asked to exercise with one leg but
Speaker 2: the other leg stayed inactive, and they did this for
Speaker 2: I don't know, three or four weeks, and then at
Speaker 2: the end of the study they took some blood samples
Speaker 2: and looked at epigenetic patterns on the genes, which is
Speaker 2: basically a readout of which genes expression got altered. So
Speaker 2: in the leg that received exercise, there was a lot
Speaker 2: of epigenetic changes turning on genes that correspond with better health,
Speaker 2: better metabolism, and the other leg this didn't happen. So
Speaker 2: you can easily change your genes expression just by doing
Speaker 2: some very basic things. Another really remarkable study, and this
Speaker 2: is this is one that really blows my mind, is
Speaker 2: that meditators like monks you were talking about, master meditators,
Speaker 2: people who are very good and well practiced in the
Speaker 2: art of meditation, when they study their epigenetic patterns, they
Speaker 2: have changes at genes that are linked to stress and anxiety,
Speaker 2: and they're much they're dialed way back down. And then
Speaker 2: they took that as like a justification to see what
Speaker 2: would happen in your average Joe if they started to meditate,
Speaker 2: and in a very short time, I think it was
Speaker 2: like two or four weeks, just like a half hour
Speaker 2: of meditation a day, this guided meditation that they listen to,
Speaker 2: they started seeing the same epigenetic changes at their genes
Speaker 2: that are die piling down stress and anxiety. It's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 2: And in addition to that, they see epigenetic changes at
Speaker 2: physical health points too, So like genes that would be
Speaker 2: associated with lower blood pressure, for example. And it just
Speaker 2: blows my mind that there's something we can do mentally,
Speaker 2: such as meditation, that can actually alter the epigenetic patterns
Speaker 2: on our genes, which at the end of the day
Speaker 2: changes gene expression. So this gives us great hope that
Speaker 2: there can be very simple things that we can do
Speaker 2: in our lives. A better diet, better exercise, and stress
Speaker 2: reduction techniques like guided meditation or maybe like nature walks,
Speaker 2: things like that can make very quick alterations in our
Speaker 2: genes that could explain the health benefits that most people
Speaker 2: receive if they start engaging in these healthy activities.
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the probably the terrible classifications that happens
Speaker 1: in exercise science and some other sciences is body type.
Speaker 1: And there are a bunch of different ones in different fields.
Speaker 1: But so endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph you've heard of that, I
Speaker 1: guess have you heard of that again? Endomorph mesomorph, ecdomorph
Speaker 1: have you heard of that?
Speaker 2: I'm not sure?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll explain it for me. Yeah. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: an endomorph is a person. Now this is talk about
Speaker 1: a crap qualification or a crap classification, but this is
Speaker 1: what I got taught in my first degree excise science. Right,
Speaker 1: So people fall into one of three categories, generally allegedly
Speaker 1: your honor, that is, they are an ectomorph. And they
Speaker 1: call so people who struggle to gain fat and muscle
Speaker 1: a mesomorph. Somebody who's naturally more muscular, stocky, robust, athletic, powerful,
Speaker 1: you know, like a linebacker or something, or offensive lineman
Speaker 1: or you know, or a or a field athlete, shot
Speaker 1: put a thrower, anyone like that. And an endomorph is
Speaker 1: somebody who is predisposed to gain fat more easily and
Speaker 1: all of that. But the funny thing is that it's
Speaker 1: like in the real world, it doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1: Like almost nobody sits squarely in any of those categories.
Speaker 1: And if you hadn't looked at me at fourteen years
Speaker 1: of age, you would have said, oh, he is one
Speaker 1: hundred and two percent endomorph. And then if you looked
Speaker 1: at me now you would say, well, he's mesomorph, right,
Speaker 1: is one hundred percent mesomorph. But it's really just because
Speaker 1: of how I eat and how I live and how
Speaker 1: I move my body. And yeah, so it's it's it's
Speaker 1: funny how many things get passed off as science that
Speaker 1: we grew I grew up in that model anyway, where
Speaker 1: we would talk to clients and athletes all the time
Speaker 1: about the mesomorphic or enomorphic or ectomorphic genetic tendencies or predisposition,
Speaker 1: you know, but it's kind of bullshit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah, Like for those sorts of traits,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of flexibility. There are very few traits
Speaker 2: that are like, you know, ninety to one hundred percent predictives,
Speaker 2: most of which are associated with disease states.
Speaker 1: But when you're.
Speaker 2: Talking about complex physical attributes and even more complicated behaviors,
Speaker 2: there's hundreds of genes, maybe thousands of genes that partake
Speaker 2: in that particular trait. So I think there's a lot
Speaker 2: of flexibility. So yeah, I get what you're saying. And
Speaker 2: it's all a matter of your environment too, as to
Speaker 2: what may be prompted those changes, you know, from struggling
Speaker 2: with weight and food to achieving a better lifestyle. What
Speaker 2: some people are going to have an easier time at
Speaker 2: that than others.
Speaker 1: What does your research doc tell us about the role
Speaker 1: of genetics in personality emotions? And you know, even the
Speaker 1: way that even now I don't know for what this
Speaker 1: is not science here, but for one of better term
Speaker 1: our worldview, the way that we think, the way that
Speaker 1: we process the world around us. How much of that?
Speaker 1: And I know it's I know there's no definitive number,
Speaker 1: but tell us about that a little bit. You know,
Speaker 1: like if Craig Harper the same same body, same genetics.
Speaker 1: If I was raised next door to you in the
Speaker 1: States and mum and dad were Mormons, and you know,
Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in a different place, I
Speaker 1: was the same DNA.
Speaker 2: But I had fifteen kids by now, yeah.
Speaker 1: I'd have fifteen kids and four station wagons. But the
Speaker 1: shout out to my Mormon listeners, both of you, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Right? So that's a perfect example against this genetic determinism
Speaker 2: concept where just because you have a certain blueprint, if
Speaker 2: you will in your DNA, how that blueprint unfolds is
Speaker 2: going to depend a great deal on the environment you're in.
Speaker 2: And that's the reason for that is epigenetics, because studies
Speaker 2: have been done on identical twins that have the same
Speaker 2: exact genome, you know, their clones. But if you set
Speaker 2: up the example where one of the twins moves away
Speaker 2: and does something very different or is in a very
Speaker 2: different environment, they're going to exhibit differences. And when scientists
Speaker 2: look at the epigenetic patterns on their genomes, despite the
Speaker 2: fact that all the genes are the same, that epigenetic
Speaker 2: patterns are not because because they were dictated by the
Speaker 2: different environments that they were in. And that's what brings
Speaker 2: about the differences in their appearance and behavior. Many people
Speaker 2: don't realize that identical twins very often as they age
Speaker 2: do have subtle differences in their appearance and sometimes dramatic
Speaker 2: differences in their behavior.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, one hundred percent, and you can you.
Speaker 2: Can take I think I might have said this example
Speaker 2: on your podcast before, but if if let's say I'm
Speaker 2: genetically predetermined to be six feet tall, yeah, you stick
Speaker 2: me in a malnourished environment, that's never going to happen.
Speaker 2: So your environment is really a critical variable in how
Speaker 2: your genetic program unfolds, how it manifests itself.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So can you can you talk about how some
Speaker 1: of the biological traits we've inherited through evolution, ah maladaptive
Speaker 1: in modern society.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Like the classic example is diet. So back
Speaker 2: when we were hunter gatherers, there was a really strong
Speaker 2: selective pressure to go after high calorie foods because they
Speaker 2: were extremely rare back then. So we're talking about sugars
Speaker 2: and fats. Why do they taste so to us? It's
Speaker 2: because we are evolutionarily designed to seek out sweet flavors
Speaker 2: and fats for their high colure content. They gave us
Speaker 2: an abundance of energy and an environment that really didn't
Speaker 2: have a lot of calories. There was a strong selective
Speaker 2: pressure to develop a sweet tooth and a taste for fats,
Speaker 2: high calorie foods. Salts another thing that we have a
Speaker 2: taste for. Those items are not rare anymore. They're super abundant.
Speaker 2: It is so easy to get a ton of sugar, fats,
Speaker 2: and salt in contrast to the lifestyles our ancestors led.
Speaker 2: So we are biologically tuned to still seek out sugar
Speaker 2: and fats, but unfortunately we're an environment where they're readily
Speaker 2: accessible and people can just continue to eat them all
Speaker 2: day long. That would have been unheard of in the
Speaker 2: lifestyle that we had for about one hundred thousand years.
Speaker 2: So that's what scientists call a genetic mismatch. It is
Speaker 2: a mismatch between our environment of long ago, the way
Speaker 2: we were evolutionarily, you know, created versus the environment we
Speaker 2: have today. Sedentary lifestyle is the same way many people
Speaker 2: struggle with weight because our lifestyle for most people is
Speaker 2: sitting down and doing things that don't burn a lot
Speaker 2: of calories. We don't get exercise, we don't move our
Speaker 2: bodies very much. That wasn't the case, you know, back
Speaker 2: on the savannah when we were hunting for food and
Speaker 2: looking for the vegetables and roots to eat, So there
Speaker 2: was a lot more activity than what we have now.
Speaker 2: So we've I kind of refer to this as we're
Speaker 2: victims of our own success. We've created a world where
Speaker 2: there's abundant calories, there's very little need to exercise, you know,
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of people that's an unpleasant activity. Yes,
Speaker 2: but you don't need to do that if you don't
Speaker 2: want to. So we've created a world that our body
Speaker 2: is just not well suited to fit. It's like we're
Speaker 2: a square peg, but the world we made is round.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like that's right. It's like life used
Speaker 1: to be uncomfortable, like practically uncomfortable for most of our
Speaker 1: human timeline or evolutionary timeline, because we had to hunt,
Speaker 1: we had to gather, we had to grow, we had
Speaker 1: to fight, we had to find water. There was no electricity,
Speaker 1: there were no fridgides, there was no you know. It's like,
Speaker 1: and now we most I mean, I'm generalizing that I
Speaker 1: could be wrong, but I feel like most people's priority
Speaker 1: on some level is comfort, you know, And like nobody
Speaker 1: wants discomfort, nobody wants uncertainty, nobody wants the unknown or
Speaker 1: the unfamiliar. Everyone wants to know what's coming. Everyone wants
Speaker 1: to you know, well it's a bit warm, turn on
Speaker 1: the air conditioning, or it's a bit cold, turn on
Speaker 1: the heat, you know. And I understand all of that.
Speaker 1: I'm not totally different either, but it's like, it's in
Speaker 1: this pursuit or comfort and certainty and predictability that we've
Speaker 1: made ourselves more vulnerable in a bad way, not vulnerable
Speaker 1: in a good way. And like the very thing that
Speaker 1: we talk about, especially in corporate land, that I inhabit
Speaker 1: probably more than you. In corporate land, they're always talking
Speaker 1: about resilience, but the way that we live creates the
Speaker 1: opposite of resilience. It creates weakness, it creates dysfunction, it
Speaker 1: creates a fucking plethora of problems sociological, emotional, psychological, and physiological,
Speaker 1: because we are so concerned with getting on the couch,
Speaker 1: you know, the sofa, either literal or metaphoric, and we're
Speaker 1: always going to do the hard thing soon, but not today.
Speaker 1: I think we've backed ourselves into a metaphoric corner in
Speaker 1: some ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. And that's one of the things I
Speaker 2: try to stress in the book too, is I'm trying
Speaker 2: to open people's eyes to this mismatch between the world
Speaker 2: we inhabit today and what our bodies and minds are
Speaker 2: you know, should be doing, you know. And the way
Speaker 2: to I think better well being is not necessarily to
Speaker 2: live like our ancestors did. I don't want to deprive anyone,
Speaker 2: especially myself, of air conditioning or heat this winter. I
Speaker 2: like it comfort. I'm not trying to talk anybody out
Speaker 2: of that. But I also like the comfort of not
Speaker 2: having heart disease, you know, of not having you know,
Speaker 2: brittle bones. You know. I want to eat well and
Speaker 2: exercise so that I can keep my telomeres as long
Speaker 2: as possible. Right, So you have to think about comfort
Speaker 2: in a different way. And I go back to what
Speaker 2: you said earlier about instant gratification. This is the concept
Speaker 2: we need to kind of exercise out of our mind.
Speaker 2: We need to get instant gratification off the front burner
Speaker 2: and put it on the back burner. Why because a
Speaker 2: lot of instant gratification will make you happy in the
Speaker 2: short term, but will make you miserable in the long term,
Speaker 2: and that leads to unhappiness and a reduction in the
Speaker 2: quality of life. So if you can put aside some
Speaker 2: of the sweets and eat more healthy, if you can
Speaker 2: get up off the couch and go for a walk
Speaker 2: or a run, those are going to lead to better
Speaker 2: physical outcomes obviously, but it will also increase your well
Speaker 2: being at a at a mental health level as well.
Speaker 2: And so it's a different kind of comfort, you know,
Speaker 2: going for going more for sustainable content throughout your entire
Speaker 2: life versus a whole bunch of instant gratification right now
Speaker 2: with a bunch of misery ahead.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know that the truth is that
Speaker 1: and I say this too many times, but it never
Speaker 1: isn't true. I don't think is that the you know,
Speaker 1: the thing that we want isn't always the thing that
Speaker 1: we need in terms of our own you know, personal welfare.
Speaker 1: And you know, longevity and health span and all of
Speaker 1: those things, and like that, you think about how many
Speaker 1: things are sold on the premise of instant or quick.
Speaker 1: You know, everyone wants a hack, everyone wants a shortcut,
Speaker 1: everyone wants two minute abs, everyone wants to you know,
Speaker 1: it's like that's what sells. I mean, most companies, most marketers,
Speaker 1: most branding people know that if they can if they
Speaker 1: can trick you or you know, convince you that you
Speaker 1: can get where you want to get with our thing,
Speaker 1: the thing that we're selling, and you'll get there quicker
Speaker 1: and easier, and the thing that we're selling will do
Speaker 1: most of the work.
Speaker 2: Therefore you don't have to Well, that thing is going
Speaker 2: to sell absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up, because
Speaker 2: that is a point that I also make multiple times
Speaker 2: in the book and a lot of the subsequent writing,
Speaker 2: the articles they've written afterwards, because everyone comes to me,
Speaker 2: and you know, people talk about this all the time,
Speaker 2: about these life hacks, these shortcuts, most of which have
Speaker 2: no evidence behind them at all, And just because something
Speaker 2: works for one person doesn't mean it's going to work
Speaker 2: for you. The it is utterly boring, but the best
Speaker 2: advice you can you can receive is eat better, exercise more.
Speaker 2: That's all you need to do. All these other little
Speaker 2: hacks you know, TikTok videos, these wellness, eat these herbs,
Speaker 2: take these supplements, give me your money, and give me
Speaker 2: your money. You can save yourself a lot of money
Speaker 2: and heartache just by doing what your parents always told
Speaker 2: you to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Oh.
Speaker 1: And also you know that the idea that you know,
Speaker 1: like move move better, eat better, well, that doesn't make
Speaker 1: anyone any money, doc, I.
Speaker 2: Mean exactly, And that's how it should be. That's how exactly.
Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to I'm trying to help people,
Speaker 2: you know, don't waste your money on this.
Speaker 1: Stuff, exactly. And this is why you know, it's like
Speaker 1: the just eat better and move better. People roll their eyes,
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, all right, don't get it. But what
Speaker 1: do I do though, I'm like, hell, you know, all right?
Speaker 1: I used to say I still do. Sometimes I'd say,
Speaker 1: write me a list of what you eat, and then
Speaker 1: don't change what you eat. Just write me a list
Speaker 1: of what you eat for a week, or time you
Speaker 1: go to bed, what time you get up, write down
Speaker 1: all your exercise. Be as exact as you can with
Speaker 1: all of it, and just bring me seven days worth
Speaker 1: of information and we'll just start with that. There's no
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tear you apart. There's no annihilation
Speaker 1: or humiliation. There's just like, because all you're doing is
Speaker 1: putting data on pages for me or on a computer
Speaker 1: or whatever. And then when I see what you eat
Speaker 1: micros and macros and energy in and out and sets
Speaker 1: and reps and volume and walking and distance and you know, sleep,
Speaker 1: and then we can start to figure out, oh, well,
Speaker 1: this is what you typically to do. This is your
Speaker 1: normal operating system and what you look and feel and
Speaker 1: function like, that's the outcome. Right. Of course there's some
Speaker 1: genetic influence there. But now let's look at how you
Speaker 1: are physically and how you want to be physically, and
Speaker 1: let's look at what you Well, then we can start
Speaker 1: to do some N equals one science you know where
Speaker 1: we go. Okay, well, why don't we try this. So
Speaker 1: you have alcohol four days a week, Let's for the
Speaker 1: next two weeks have alcohol two days, you know, and
Speaker 1: let's not double it on those two days, you know,
Speaker 1: and you normally and you normally eat this kind of bread.
Speaker 1: Let's maybe try that kind of bread. And you know
Speaker 1: you're not doing any any walking at all, So let's
Speaker 1: let's chuck in like five kilometers or three miles of
Speaker 1: walking that's going to take you about sixty minutes or
Speaker 1: you know. So all of a sudden, where we're starting
Speaker 1: to create a protocol that is for us, that will
Speaker 1: work for us. And it's like, there's two distinct benefits.
Speaker 1: One is the obvious benefits of changing our body. But
Speaker 1: the second and maybe more important benefit is who we
Speaker 1: become doing that hard thing. Who would become mentally and
Speaker 1: emotionally doing the hard thing that we don't want to do,
Speaker 1: especially when you can, because what you're doing is you're creating.
Speaker 1: Sorry I feel like I'm on my bloody high horse here,
Speaker 1: but what you're doing is you're creating a new and
Speaker 1: improved version of you. So now the thing that used
Speaker 1: to require discipline, self control, willpower and motivation, it doesn't
Speaker 1: anymore because you've created a new normal. And that's the
Speaker 1: ultimate goal with this stuff.
Speaker 2: I think I like the way you're having people wade
Speaker 2: into the water a little bit, taking those baby steps
Speaker 2: so it's not such an abrupt change. I think that
Speaker 2: is much more effective. Get people to nudge towards better behaviors,
Speaker 2: better healthier behaviors. That's going to be pretty successful. And then,
Speaker 2: like you said, those nudges, those small behavioral changes become
Speaker 2: new habits in and of themselves. And once people start
Speaker 2: feeling better, they feel better rested, they have more energy,
Speaker 2: you know, they're maybe losing weight. They're thinking more clearly,
Speaker 2: why would you want to stop the program? You know,
Speaker 2: you want to maintain that level of you know, productivity
Speaker 2: in your life. And one of the other components of
Speaker 2: the book where diet and exercise is critically important is
Speaker 2: through the microbiome. These bacteria that live in your intestines
Speaker 2: are controlling a great deal or at least influencing a
Speaker 2: great deal of what's actually going on in the rest
Speaker 2: of your body, including your brain. So most people on
Speaker 2: what is called the SAD diet, the standard American diet,
Speaker 2: which is filled with sugar, fats, and salt, okay, a
Speaker 2: lot of preservatives, a lot of unnatural processed foods. Whenever
Speaker 2: you look at the microbiome of people who subsist on
Speaker 2: that diet, it's been depleted of many of the bacterial
Speaker 2: species that are present in individuals who don't eat that crap. Okay.
Speaker 2: Individuals who have a healthy diet have a thriving microbiome
Speaker 2: that is filled with all sorts of different species and
Speaker 2: secrete metabolites chemicals that are associated which must with much
Speaker 2: better physical and mental health. So what scientists have started
Speaker 2: to do, and some of this is in rodent models,
Speaker 2: but there have been some studies in people. Now they
Speaker 2: modify diets in very specific, well controlled ways and they
Speaker 2: can see changes in the microbiome. So a lot of
Speaker 2: the beneficial changes in the microbiome are a result of
Speaker 2: reducing the sugars, reducing the fats, eating less red meat,
Speaker 2: eating more vegetables, and getting a lot more fiber of
Speaker 2: those components. And again this is stuff that people know.
Speaker 2: It's just it's a lot easier to grab the twinkie
Speaker 2: or the candy bar. You have to resist those temptations
Speaker 2: and just start eating real food again and moving your body.
Speaker 2: Your microbiome will change as a result of that and
Speaker 2: start making chemicals that make your brain even function better.
Speaker 2: So it's it's really cool science and if people want
Speaker 2: to learn more, they can read the book. But a
Speaker 2: lot more has been written about the microbiomes since there
Speaker 2: really seems to be strong connections in diet, microbiome, health
Speaker 2: and mental health.
Speaker 1: It's funny. The next question I was literally going to
Speaker 1: ask you, was are there any emerging treatments for mental
Speaker 1: health conditions that focus on you know, the microbiome. So
Speaker 1: you answered it, yeah, it's it's amazing. Was there in
Speaker 1: your research, like in in the you know, all the
Speaker 1: research that you did for the book and all the
Speaker 1: and all the prep and all the planning, and was
Speaker 1: there one thing that stood out to you, one one
Speaker 1: kind of thing that you learned. And I know your
Speaker 1: learning is ongoing and it's been ongoing for decades, but
Speaker 1: was there one standout thing that you've learned in this
Speaker 1: whole kind of exploration that blew you away, that surprised
Speaker 1: you more than anything else, one insight or one one discovery.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was the one thing that stands out in
Speaker 2: my mind the most was studies that relate to aggression
Speaker 2: and violence. So for a long time, there was you know,
Speaker 2: people think that this is you talk about free will
Speaker 2: and agency. You know, the United States still has capital
Speaker 2: punishment for people who murder other individuals, and we have
Speaker 2: harsh jail sentences for criminal activity, thinking that that's going
Speaker 2: to deter crime, and we don't give any thought to
Speaker 2: what caused that individual to behave that way. We blame
Speaker 2: the victim, if you will, Okay, if you want to
Speaker 2: call a criminal a victim. A lot of people have
Speaker 2: problems with that, and I understand and I'm sensitive to it.
Speaker 2: But what got me starting to change my mind was
Speaker 2: that there are genetic studies that show genes linked to
Speaker 2: aggression and violence, and they are usually amplified through epigenetic
Speaker 2: changes in poor environments. Okay, So if a child is
Speaker 2: subjected to aces adverse childhood events like bullying, neglect, abuse,
Speaker 2: and they have these genes that predispose them towards aggression
Speaker 2: and violence for disaster, So these individuals tend to have
Speaker 2: no impulse control, they tend to have rage disorder, and
Speaker 2: it's really hard to get inside of their head if
Speaker 2: you don't act that way. But it's an uncontrollable urge,
Speaker 2: it's an uncontrollable behavior. What really struck me was that
Speaker 2: scientists can go into a mouse model and make changes
Speaker 2: in these same genes and the mice become hyper competitive,
Speaker 2: hyper aggressive. So there's a real genetic component to even
Speaker 2: heinous behavior. Now this is not a get out of
Speaker 2: jail free card. Craig, This is, you know, we still
Speaker 2: got to lock people up if they are dangerously violent,
Speaker 2: but we what we can learn from these sorts of
Speaker 2: studies is that behavior is strongly influenced by genes, and
Speaker 2: what we really need to do is understand how they
Speaker 2: environment can maybe deter those what those genes influence that
Speaker 2: person towards. So some studies have been done that show
Speaker 2: individuals with these genetic mutations, if they're in an environment
Speaker 2: where they are nourished, you know, you know, they have
Speaker 2: plenty of healthy foods, they have good school systems, they're
Speaker 2: not subjected to these aces. We don't see these problems
Speaker 2: in those individuals. So that is that is screaming to
Speaker 2: me that our whole system of jurisprudence is upside down.
Speaker 2: Rather than dealing with problem people, we need to recognize
Speaker 2: that we are creating environments that generate problem people and
Speaker 2: we need to fix those environments to benefit everybody. But
Speaker 2: we like to blame the victim, right, we like to
Speaker 2: blame the victim. But what you need to ask yourself,
Speaker 2: and this this was something that I read while because
Speaker 2: I struggled with this a lot. I was of the
Speaker 2: mind that, you know, if you're a criminal, lock you up,
Speaker 2: throw away the key, I don't really care, you know. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but these these studies have made me a little more
Speaker 2: sympathetic towards what individuals who grow up in poverty, who
Speaker 2: grow up in adverse environments, what they truly struggle with.
Speaker 2: And you really got to put yourself in that mindset
Speaker 2: and ask yourself, how in the world would I have
Speaker 2: done any different? You know, I wouldn't have had any
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had any other options that you know,
Speaker 2: these individuals are deprived of. I probably would have turned out,
Speaker 2: you know, very similarly. So instead of trying to incarcerate,
Speaker 2: I mean, we've still got to incarcerate people to keep
Speaker 2: society safe, but we got to work on fixing the
Speaker 2: environment instead of blaming the people who are stuck in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a tricky conundrum because you know, when
Speaker 1: some people are genetically predisposed to be a certain way,
Speaker 1: like we all are, right, just most of us. Not
Speaker 1: for aggression and violence, thankfully, but that I wonder if
Speaker 1: you're going to get called into court one day to explain.
Speaker 2: Ah it happens, that happens. Robert Sapolski is frequently called
Speaker 2: into death penalty cases because he has done a lot
Speaker 2: of research on these so called warrior genes that have
Speaker 2: been linked to aggressive and violence, and it's basically to
Speaker 2: argue that this person really didn't have control over their actions. Yes,
Speaker 2: there was an individual. I think the very first instance
Speaker 2: of this in the US was in twenty eleven someone
Speaker 2: who was in the court. They didn't get to death penalty,
Speaker 2: they got life imprisonment, but they were spared to death
Speaker 2: penalty for murder because of their genetics. So this happens.
Speaker 2: But the silver lining there is that once we know
Speaker 2: gene x Y or Z is linked to violence, we
Speaker 2: figure out what that gene is doing, what product does
Speaker 2: it make, what process does it affect in the brain.
Speaker 2: We might be able to design a chemical craig a
Speaker 2: drug that can offset that, you know, just like we
Speaker 2: do for other mental health issues. Okay, people with clinical
Speaker 2: depression or anxiety, there are drugs that are now available
Speaker 2: and the stigma of those diseases has gone way down.
Speaker 2: Aggression and violence might be very similar, and we might
Speaker 2: be able to medicate people so that they can live
Speaker 2: a normal, healthy life. But I still I don't think
Speaker 2: I can stress enough how many studies I read in
Speaker 2: both animal models, and of course this makes total sense
Speaker 2: when you talk about humans fixing addressing the environmental issues,
Speaker 2: the poverty, you know, the malnutrition, the lead poisoning, all
Speaker 2: of these things are what is generating criminals. Okay, especially
Speaker 2: people who are predisposed of violence. This is just kind
Speaker 2: of like putting that spark to the to the dynamite.
Speaker 2: So I think that would go a tremendously long way
Speaker 2: and it would make society better for everyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know who? Do you know who Terry
Speaker 1: Crews is? I don't think Terry Cruz. Terry Crews is.
Speaker 1: Cruise is spelled cr w s. He hosts America's Got Talent.
Speaker 1: He's an ex NFL player, actor, big jacked dude. Anyway,
Speaker 1: in my spare time I listened to his autobiography. He's
Speaker 1: really articulate, highly intelligent, gifted athlete I would say, genetically blessed,
Speaker 1: but grew up in a violent, abusive household. Both parents
Speaker 1: were somewhat abusive. The mum very very controlling, dictatorial, and
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, very very extremely religious and controlling, and
Speaker 1: the father violent and you know, like crap childhood and
Speaker 1: you know, he was bullied and he's black, so he
Speaker 1: was there was lots of discrimination and lots of racism.
Speaker 1: And he grew up in a place called Flint, Michigan,
Speaker 1: which was, you know, like not a great environment for him.
Speaker 1: And yeah, and he basically talks about how well he
Speaker 1: was well on the way to becoming his dad, just
Speaker 1: despite the fact that all the shit that happened to
Speaker 1: him he hated, it was horrible. And then fortunately for him,
Speaker 1: he had a bit of a spiritual or philosophical or
Speaker 1: I don't know whatever emotional awakening where he realized. But
Speaker 1: he says, like it's every day he kind of works
Speaker 1: against this, this this programming that he you know, because
Speaker 1: when you grow up, i mean, apart from your genetics,
Speaker 1: you're also there's this environmental sociological programming. And yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like that he speaks about how hard it is to
Speaker 1: kind of rise above that. When you that's like becomes
Speaker 1: your default setting, even if it was something that you
Speaker 1: personally hated, you become it almost.
Speaker 2: Well more power to him. And you do read about
Speaker 2: exceptions to the rule, people who do against all arts
Speaker 2: come out of this process. It's enlightening to hear that
Speaker 2: every day is still a struggle, you know, this is
Speaker 2: a constant battle to fight those demons from the past.
Speaker 2: And it's wonderful to see examples. And I think there's
Speaker 2: a there's a tendency amongst people that if one person
Speaker 2: can do it, all the other tens of millions of
Speaker 2: people affected by poverty can do the same. And that's
Speaker 2: where I'm like, come on, come on, one other quick thing,
Speaker 2: and this is this is not to be little anybody's
Speaker 2: success in emerging from those horrible conditions. But I think
Speaker 2: there's been studies on children who come out of orphanages.
Speaker 2: Most of these children who go through the foster home
Speaker 2: process have miserable times, and statistically they end up with
Speaker 2: higher probability of being depressed or violent or even suicidal.
Speaker 2: It's horrible conditions that they had. But every now and
Speaker 2: then there's a few children who are resilient to all
Speaker 2: of this. Okay, they come out of it just fine,
Speaker 2: even though they had some horrible experiences, they seem okay.
Speaker 2: And this was genetically studied and it turns out that
Speaker 2: there's a really strong correlation between the resilient children and
Speaker 2: they have a gene that protects their brain from stress.
Speaker 2: It's a remarkable study. The gene is called BDNF and
Speaker 2: they over express this gene and its function is to
Speaker 2: protect the brain from stress. So even resilience, Craig, and
Speaker 2: this is probably why it's so rare, may have a
Speaker 2: genetic underpinning at least in some of these examples.
Speaker 1: Is that what is that? I feel like I've heard
Speaker 1: that betaf. Is it neurotropic fact of the last two
Speaker 1: things or something?
Speaker 2: Brain neurotropic factor or something like that. Yeah, brain development,
Speaker 2: brain development, nor a troop factor?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another guy I have on here it
Speaker 1: has spoken about that's that's so interesting. All right. Last
Speaker 1: thing which is not in your wheelhouse, but if one
Speaker 1: of us knows anything, it ain't me, it might be you.
Speaker 1: So there's a you know all about this, but a
Speaker 1: genetic engineering tool which is crisper, which is a thing
Speaker 1: that people are talking about, c R I p R. Well,
Speaker 1: can you explain to me what it is? And and
Speaker 1: is that is that a good thing? A terrifying thing?
Speaker 1: Is it real? Is it going to play any role
Speaker 1: moving forward? So what? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we could do a whole show on that one, Craig,
Speaker 2: Crisper is amazing it is. I'll do the I'll do
Speaker 2: the short synopsis version. It is basically a gene editing
Speaker 2: system that we stare from bacteria. Okay, bacteria use Crisper
Speaker 2: as an immune system to kill viruses that come in
Speaker 2: and invade bacteria. But we hijacked this system in order
Speaker 2: to edit genes with exquisite specificity, greater than any other
Speaker 2: approach that mankind humankind has ever developed so far. So
Speaker 2: what makes it so great is that it's very specific
Speaker 2: and doesn't appear to have a lot of off target effects.
Speaker 2: So if you want to modify gene x, you can
Speaker 2: do so with Crisper. The limitations of it right now
Speaker 2: are that we can do it in cells that we
Speaker 2: grow in a laboratory, So it's really hard to say
Speaker 2: we're going to modify your genes, crey. We can't do
Speaker 2: that yet. But we can take some of your white
Speaker 2: blood cells, for example, and change the DNA in those
Speaker 2: white blood cells and then put them back into the body.
Speaker 2: And why would we want to do that? We can
Speaker 2: genetically engineer using Crisper to tell your white blood cells
Speaker 2: to kill your cancer.
Speaker 1: Is that happening? That is?
Speaker 2: There's clinical trials for leukemia utilizing this technology it's called
Speaker 2: cart c A RT, and Crisper is also being used
Speaker 2: to remedy sickle cell disease. So sickle cell disease is
Speaker 2: a terrible ailment and there was no hope for it.
Speaker 2: But again, we can now take individuals cells using Crisper,
Speaker 2: give them the proper genes so they don't have sickle
Speaker 2: cell anymore, and then basically rid that disease from their germline,
Speaker 2: from their genome. It's remarkable technology and it's only going
Speaker 2: to get more and more utility. You may have heard
Speaker 2: about the infamous case in China where a scientist, I believe,
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen give or take crispered babies where out
Speaker 2: there there are two or three babies that have been
Speaker 2: born who have been genetically altered using Crisper technology. And
Speaker 2: the way he altered them he tried to make them
Speaker 2: resistant to the HIV virus. And there's very questionable tactics
Speaker 2: with regard to even what he did scientifically, let alone
Speaker 2: what he did morally, because there's a there's a global
Speaker 2: ban on genetically modifying the germ line of individuals who
Speaker 2: have yet to be born. Yes, but he did prison
Speaker 2: time for that, but I think he is back out
Speaker 2: working in the sciences now.
Speaker 1: Oh I wonder what those how those kids are.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, nobody knows. You know, you're not going to
Speaker 2: get much information out of China, but I don't know
Speaker 2: what the fate of those children are or what happened
Speaker 2: to them, how they're doing or whatnot. We don't know
Speaker 2: what the long term effects might be. And like I
Speaker 2: said before, what he did scientifically was questionable and there
Speaker 2: was no need to do this. You know, there's no
Speaker 2: need to make someone resistant to HIV because you can
Speaker 2: live a life that prevents you from getting the virus.
Speaker 2: So it's just a huge mess. But it illustrates how
Speaker 2: easy this stuff is to use and you know, some
Speaker 2: of the magnitude of the changes that it can make.
Speaker 2: So we're using it right now for medical purposes, but
Speaker 2: it probably won't be long before people want to start
Speaker 2: using Crisper to improve other genes that they think are
Speaker 2: going to give them more intelligence, or increase their memory,
Speaker 2: or increase their lifespan. All that is coming down the road.
Speaker 2: Compared to a whole show on this one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's fascinating world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, humans are GMOs.
Speaker 1: Now maybe they're going to use that technology for weeding
Speaker 1: out aggression and violence, or you know, like we were
Speaker 1: talking about people who are genetically predisposed for violence before,
Speaker 1: maybe they can deal with that before it eventuates.
Speaker 2: Or maybe they put it in Craig.
Speaker 1: Maybe we build a super a super racist soldiers, super army. Yeah,
Speaker 1: super army full of violent, aggressive, fearless humans that have
Speaker 1: been I bet there's probably North Korea is doing that
Speaker 1: right now. Someone's doing that. Probably China's doing that right
Speaker 1: super soldiers, that's happening.
Speaker 2: Sure, it's scary to think about, but I don't think
Speaker 2: the technology is there yet, but I think it's inevitable
Speaker 2: that we will get there. So it's high time we
Speaker 2: start talking about it and start putting like, you know,
Speaker 2: intelligent restrictions on what people can and cannot do. But
Speaker 2: the terrifying part of Chris Breer is how easy it
Speaker 2: is to use.
Speaker 1: Wow, now I'm scared. Well, MIT are building dogs that
Speaker 1: have have you seen those dogs from MIT? They have
Speaker 1: like weapons on their back now, like machine guns and stuff.
Speaker 2: Oh like these are robot dogs. Yeah, robot dogs. I've
Speaker 2: seen some.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you get yeah, just google Mit robot dogs.
Speaker 1: They can run and fall over and get back up
Speaker 1: and jump up on stuff. It's seventy thousand dollars a
Speaker 1: dog or one hundred thousand dollars a dog. But you
Speaker 1: know it's no German shepherd, is it? Hey? How can
Speaker 1: people find you and follow you? Doc?
Speaker 2: They can find me at my author website. It is www.
Speaker 2: Author Bill Sullivan dot com.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for keeping you up. What time is it
Speaker 1: over there?
Speaker 2: Oh it's not even ten o'clock yet, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: Well, I apologize. We stuffed up here, everybody. We forgot
Speaker 1: the factor in daylight saving things. And by where I
Speaker 1: mean me like I through, like I threw everyone under
Speaker 1: the bus, and me I stuffed up. We'll say goodbye
Speaker 1: here but for the moment, Bill, thanks again and appreciate you.
Speaker 2: Always a pleasure, Craig, it's great to talk to you.
Speaker 1: Thanks buddy,