1
00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,519
Speaker 1: I get a team. I hope you're great. Our favorite

2
00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,280
Speaker 1: one of our favorite geeks. I better not say favorite geeks,

3
00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:13,560
Speaker 1: because we have quite a few, but definitely our favorite

4
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,480
Speaker 1: professor of cellular and molecular biology. Did I get that right,

5
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 1: Doc rov yep, that's close enough. Definitely that is back,

6
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 1: Doctor Bill Sullivan. Welcome back to the U projects. Good

7
00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:28,000
Speaker 1: to see you again, sir.

8
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,680
Speaker 2: Good to see you now you and RTD coming along.

9
00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,040
Speaker 1: Don't ask it. Well, I'm at the writing stage, so

10
00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,280
Speaker 1: I've done all my all, my research has done all

11
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:47,400
Speaker 1: my Now it's a different system over here, but yeah,

12
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,400
Speaker 1: so all my all my studies and research is done

13
00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,680
Speaker 1: on my data is in. I'm just writing papers now

14
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,000
Speaker 1: and writing I've got to I've got to have two,

15
00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: preferably three papers published, and I've got to write my thesis,

16
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,639
Speaker 1: which is about eighty thousand words. I'm doing all of that.

17
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,400
Speaker 1: You have to get what's called academic milestones here where

18
00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,840
Speaker 1: you've got to stand in front of a panel in

19
00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,720
Speaker 1: my university, Monash University, in the neuroscience neurocyclab you've got

20
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,199
Speaker 1: to do four times in front of them and get

21
00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 1: four green lights, which I've finished. I'm done, so I'm

22
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:28,240
Speaker 1: kind of on the home straight, so I hope, I

23
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,240
Speaker 1: hope to hand everything in in about four months. But

24
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,760
Speaker 1: then you've got to get feedback and so we'll see.

25
00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,080
Speaker 2: But it's a process. But congratulations are making it so far.

26
00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:44,280
Speaker 2: The AX defense is probably one of the biggest hurdles.

27
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,280
Speaker 1: Do you know what for somebody who last week, So

28
00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 1: we're recording this Monday, eleven thirty four Australian time or

29
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:57,080
Speaker 1: Melbourne time anyway. Last week I did four presentations, like

30
00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,200
Speaker 1: thousands of people I spoke to last week. Two of

31
00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,280
Speaker 1: the events were nearly a thousand people at each event.

32
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,640
Speaker 1: I'm so comfortable up there. It's just my thing. That's

33
00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 1: like my happy place. Blah blah blah. I stand in

34
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:15,400
Speaker 1: front of all professors. I am so fucking terrified. I

35
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:21,160
Speaker 1: am like I have because I don't you know, well,

36
00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,720
Speaker 1: it's not my natural habitat right. And obviously I'm a

37
00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,240
Speaker 1: lot more comfortable and familiar now November one, it'll be

38
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,519
Speaker 1: five years, so it's more normal and more natural now.

39
00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,679
Speaker 1: But oh my god, Doc, it's like for me, for

40
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: somebody who's relatively confident talking and doing what I do

41
00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,079
Speaker 1: for a living, You've never seen anyone more inept. You

42
00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,519
Speaker 1: would never pick that I'm a professional speaker. Watching me

43
00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:46,880
Speaker 1: in front of those four.

44
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,800
Speaker 2: It's a very different audience. You go from a bunch

45
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,960
Speaker 2: of people who might be nodding their heads to a

46
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 2: bunch of people who are shaking it the other way

47
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 2: and just looking for, you know, the holes in your knowledge.

48
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,040
Speaker 2: And once you lead a little it's like sharks, right,

49
00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,560
Speaker 2: they sense that little bit of blood and they will

50
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,120
Speaker 2: go after that topic that you might not be so

51
00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,639
Speaker 2: familiar with. It's rigorous.

52
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,520
Speaker 1: Look, I mean, I think they were quite kind to me,

53
00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,200
Speaker 1: but at the same time they're obviously I mean, their

54
00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 1: job is not to make me feel good. Their job

55
00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,680
Speaker 1: is not to nod or smile or agree of course

56
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:29,079
Speaker 1: one percent right, And you've probably done lots of presentations

57
00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,320
Speaker 1: where your audience is at least somewhere between somewhat receptive

58
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,280
Speaker 1: and what we would call warm. Like a warm audience

59
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,360
Speaker 1: is they want to hear you, they like you, you know,

60
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,400
Speaker 1: it's all round. It's a pretty good experience. But when

61
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 1: you stand in front of an academic panel, I call

62
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 1: it going to court, because it's like going to court.

63
00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 1: You're yeah, you're just another student. Of course, you're just

64
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 1: another student and you're just number whatever number you are,

65
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 1: and you're doing this doctoral program and you're researching this

66
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:07,200
Speaker 1: stuff and ready set off you go. So but very

67
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: good for me because you know it's I think that

68
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 1: for me anyway, that getting in a different place, in

69
00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,960
Speaker 1: a different environment, being really uncomfortable and also being to

70
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 1: be honest, especially initially somewhat inept, you know, learning to

71
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,359
Speaker 1: do academia after twenty years away from university and I

72
00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,120
Speaker 1: mean a different level. Obviously for me, it was just

73
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,880
Speaker 1: a massive learning curve. And I said this the other day.

74
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,679
Speaker 1: I was talking this big audience about insecurity and self

75
00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:42,080
Speaker 1: doubt and overthinking and imposter syndrome, and I said, I know,

76
00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,520
Speaker 1: I look confident and we were talking about, you know,

77
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,800
Speaker 1: just all this kind of stuff. I said, honestly, for

78
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,839
Speaker 1: the first four months of my PhD, the thing I

79
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,960
Speaker 1: thought about most is how do I get out of

80
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 1: this without being totally publicly humiliated, because I don't know

81
00:04:58,279 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 1: if I can do it.

82
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough, but as one of my former mentors

83
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,440
Speaker 2: told me, you know, the process has value. These individuals

84
00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 2: aren't up there to be mean or cruel. It's to

85
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,280
Speaker 2: expose what you know and what you don't know. And

86
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,120
Speaker 2: it's easier to say this than actually do it. But

87
00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 2: that is a worthwhile process because when you see the

88
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,039
Speaker 2: gaps in your knowledge, that's a learning experience and it

89
00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,599
Speaker 2: tells you what you need to focus on, what you

90
00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,839
Speaker 2: need to do a deeper dive on, and it tells

91
00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,159
Speaker 2: you what you do know. So that's that's the part

92
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,760
Speaker 2: of the process that's good. And from someone who's in

93
00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,440
Speaker 2: the sciences, you know, if I'm out talking about science

94
00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,400
Speaker 2: to a general to the general public, and just like science,

95
00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:50,440
Speaker 2: communicating or telling them really fascinating aspects about biology or

96
00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,920
Speaker 2: what have you, that's a whole different ballgame than talking

97
00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,040
Speaker 2: to people about your own research and what you think

98
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,320
Speaker 2: you discovered in the lab. Because they are looking for problems,

99
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,520
Speaker 2: they are looking for flaws, and that is for the

100
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,760
Speaker 2: benefit of moving science forward. It's not to be mean,

101
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,000
Speaker 2: it's not to be cruel. It is to try to

102
00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,479
Speaker 2: get to the truth or as close as humans can

103
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,120
Speaker 2: possibly approximate it. And in the science, you know that

104
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,120
Speaker 2: that in the sciences, it's critically important to have people

105
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,479
Speaker 2: more or less rip your work apart, because if you

106
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,040
Speaker 2: are promoting a certain discovery and it's wrong that's going

107
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,720
Speaker 2: to damage the entire field.

108
00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:40,200
Speaker 1: Yeahcent agree. And it's I'm lucky because because I'm both

109
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 1: a student and you know, a speaker, so I get

110
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,279
Speaker 1: to I get to learn in a different way and

111
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,000
Speaker 1: understand and research and have these kind of light bulb

112
00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 1: moments and revelations, and then I go to talk, you know,

113
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,240
Speaker 1: like the next day, I got to talk to a

114
00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,960
Speaker 1: room full of people, and I can I can unpas

115
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,440
Speaker 1: my own research and my own not only the research,

116
00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,960
Speaker 1: but also my own thoughts and insights in a manner

117
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 1: where like you said, now you're being the science communicator

118
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 1: and you're trying to share these what can be complicated

119
00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas and constructs in a way which not

120
00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 1: only makes sense to people, but perhaps is a genesis

121
00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,800
Speaker 1: for them to go and explore more. You know, Like

122
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 1: even when I just say to people, do you ever

123
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,240
Speaker 1: think about how you think and why you think the

124
00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,760
Speaker 1: way you think? And like the origin story of your thinking?

125
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,240
Speaker 1: You know? And people like this, so I don't, Yeah,

126
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 1: and do you ever think really deeply think about how

127
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,160
Speaker 1: other people think? And without judging or critics, but just

128
00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,120
Speaker 1: why does she think the way that she think? Where

129
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,760
Speaker 1: does that come from? And what is she thinking right now?

130
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,920
Speaker 1: And what is her experience not mine? You know, we're

131
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 1: in the same conversation but not the same experience. I

132
00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 1: wonder what her experience is. And so when you know that.

133
00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,640
Speaker 1: I don't know who originally said it, but Stephen Covey said,

134
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,880
Speaker 1: seek first to understand and then to be understood. You know,

135
00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,080
Speaker 1: just that if I can start when I'm in an

136
00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 1: interpersonal exchange, whether it's me and one hundred or me

137
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,080
Speaker 1: in one or me in a podcast audience like we

138
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,800
Speaker 1: are now, and I can try to get some insight

139
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 1: into who I'm talking to and I care about that,

140
00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,680
Speaker 1: then I'm probably going to do a better job at

141
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,720
Speaker 1: building connection and rapport and you know trust, I guess

142
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:31,320
Speaker 1: over time.

143
00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well that was one of the major motivations

144
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,280
Speaker 2: of writing my book, Pleased to Meet Me, was trying

145
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,320
Speaker 2: to understand not only myself, but other people who don't

146
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,040
Speaker 2: operate the same way I do, or don't believe or

147
00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,720
Speaker 2: think the same things. I think a lot of us

148
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,599
Speaker 2: and I'm not trying to, you know, you know, be

149
00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,199
Speaker 2: mean to anyone here, but I think a lot of

150
00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,319
Speaker 2: us just walk through life without thinking about such questions.

151
00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 2: We're kind of on automatic pilot zombie kind of if

152
00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 2: you will. And all it takes sometimes is one person

153
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: to say, have you ever considered why you do this

154
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,800
Speaker 2: particular behavior or why someone else would never do such

155
00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,120
Speaker 2: a thing? You know, just you know, those basic questions

156
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,840
Speaker 2: going back to the Greek philosophers who said no they self,

157
00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,760
Speaker 2: which is something that can't be said enough in you know,

158
00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,679
Speaker 2: during the education process. And I don't think a lot

159
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,600
Speaker 2: of people let it sink in.

160
00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, like you're saying you're not doing it,

161
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,200
Speaker 1: saying it to be mean, and you're not. I'm the same.

162
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 1: It's like it's self awareness, not self loathing. It's like

163
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: just yeah, you know, it's like do I get things

164
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 1: wrong all the time regularly, Okay, so don't beat yourself up.

165
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,080
Speaker 1: Just recognize or try to recognize what you're doing wrong

166
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,559
Speaker 1: or where you're flawed, or where your ideas really don't

167
00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,360
Speaker 1: match the reality or the facts. And then then you know,

168
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,040
Speaker 1: open the awareness door and the humility door and the

169
00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 1: student's mind like just you know, it's it's that need

170
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,800
Speaker 1: to be right that is such a psychological and emotional

171
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,760
Speaker 1: and educational handicap. It's like absolutely, you know, if you

172
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,679
Speaker 1: have to be right, good luck being a good student.

173
00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:27,719
Speaker 2: Yeah or yeah. You can get yourself into a lot

174
00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,720
Speaker 2: of trouble that way. And I would never want to

175
00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,800
Speaker 2: go through life with that kind of attitude because there's

176
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 2: nothing more to learn, right, You're not growing, You're kind

177
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,200
Speaker 2: of just stunted and you're fruzen there. And to me,

178
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 2: that's a really boring way to live.

179
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,360
Speaker 1: Well, I think also, Doc, you know a lot of

180
00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:50,439
Speaker 1: people to your point of living kind of on autopilot

181
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 1: or groundhog day. And it's not an offense because I

182
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,600
Speaker 1: think a lot of people realize that they are to

183
00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,080
Speaker 1: an extent living unconsciously in that they tend to do

184
00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,760
Speaker 1: the thing today that they did yesterday in the day

185
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,600
Speaker 1: before and week before, the thing that didn't really work

186
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,280
Speaker 1: the last hundred times. They are still doing it. You know.

187
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,000
Speaker 1: And my listeners will be sick of me saying this,

188
00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:15,880
Speaker 1: but I don't think I've said it to you. It's

189
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,640
Speaker 1: like one of the one of the common conversations I

190
00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,760
Speaker 1: have with people when I'm sitting down one on one

191
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,080
Speaker 1: is you know, they will say to me something like,

192
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,600
Speaker 1: you know where they are in their life, their job,

193
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,640
Speaker 1: their journey, their health, their whatever they say oh, this

194
00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,880
Speaker 1: wasn't my plan. You know where they're currently at. This

195
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 1: wasn't my plan. And I say, oh, okay, can I

196
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 1: see the plan? And they're like what, I go the plan?

197
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,040
Speaker 1: Can I see it? And they're like, what do you mean?

198
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,319
Speaker 1: I said? You just said this wasn't my plan. Can

199
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,760
Speaker 1: I see the plan? And they're like, well, there's no plan.

200
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:53,800
Speaker 1: You know, there's no plan plan.

201
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's yeah, I get what you're saying.

202
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's like and we all do. I mean,

203
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,880
Speaker 1: there's been periods of my time where periods of my time,

204
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 1: periods of my life where I was doing things that,

205
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,200
Speaker 1: especially with my body and my food because I had

206
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,120
Speaker 1: food addictions and I had all kinds of bullshit emotional

207
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:18,760
Speaker 1: and psychological and sociological and behavioral stuff going on where

208
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,840
Speaker 1: I was for extended periods of time doing things that

209
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,000
Speaker 1: didn't work. And the reason that I did it, among

210
00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,160
Speaker 1: others was one of the reasons was, you know, because

211
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 1: it gave me instant gratification, you know, so overcoming that

212
00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,679
Speaker 1: as well, that need to get pleasure right now, and

213
00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,680
Speaker 1: because I'll fix it soon, but not today, I'll fix

214
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,760
Speaker 1: it soon. I'll start Monday I'll start January one, but

215
00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:44,480
Speaker 1: not today.

216
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is really hard because that's a little bit

217
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:53,120
Speaker 2: against the grain of human nature when we evolved long ago.

218
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:54,960
Speaker 2: And I know I see this a lot, so I

219
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,600
Speaker 2: hope your regular listeners are not getting tired of me

220
00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,079
Speaker 2: ramble on about how important it is to evaluate our

221
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,839
Speaker 2: current behavior in the context of what our ancestors long

222
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,720
Speaker 2: ago did. Because we lived as hunter gatherers for hundreds

223
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,480
Speaker 2: of thousands of years, so those behavioral patterns are deeply

224
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,160
Speaker 2: ingrained into our brain and dictate a lot of our

225
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,160
Speaker 2: actions at a subconscious level. So we very often need

226
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,360
Speaker 2: to step back and analyze our behavior and why we're

227
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,439
Speaker 2: doing it that way. And when you think about hunter

228
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,679
Speaker 2: gatherer lifestyles and you can you can read lots of books.

229
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 2: It's fascinating literature, but you really gain a lot of

230
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:42,199
Speaker 2: insights into maybe some of the irrational things that human

231
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,240
Speaker 2: beings do, or some of these automatic habits that you're

232
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,040
Speaker 2: talking about that obviously aren't good for us, and yet

233
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:52,839
Speaker 2: we continue to do them time and time again. These

234
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,800
Speaker 2: are patterns that if you extrapolate back to our ancient past,

235
00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:01,319
Speaker 2: you can see those sorts of behaviors and since they

236
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,560
Speaker 2: were with us for about one hundred thousand years. And

237
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 2: you know, we've only civilization has been around as we

238
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,640
Speaker 2: know it only for about ten thousand years, which is

239
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,200
Speaker 2: the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. We really

240
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 2: haven't come to grips with the modern world and how

241
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 2: we're evolutionarily designed.

242
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. I wanted to. Okay, so by

243
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,840
Speaker 1: the way, everyone, we haven't done this. We're going to

244
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 1: get to it. I want the second half of the

245
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,360
Speaker 1: show to be all about doctor Bale's books. So it's

246
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 1: called Please to Meet Me, Jean's Germs and the curious

247
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,080
Speaker 1: forces that make us who we are. I'm listening to

248
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,840
Speaker 1: it at the moment in between my other stuff. But

249
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 1: I'm not just saying this because you're here. I was

250
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,120
Speaker 1: actually talking to somebody this morning. They said, what are

251
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,680
Speaker 1: you doing, and I said, I've got our bunch of

252
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,720
Speaker 1: stuff on you being one of the things I add

253
00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,840
Speaker 1: on in Inverted Commas, and I said, you've got to

254
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,520
Speaker 1: read or listen to his book. It's it's it is

255
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,840
Speaker 1: really brilliant, and it is what I love about your book.

256
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,960
Speaker 1: There's such good use of humor and storytelling, and anyone,

257
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,280
Speaker 1: anyone can understand it, like it's relevant for everyone. Like

258
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,280
Speaker 1: there's really nobody that it's not relevant for because we've

259
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,160
Speaker 1: all got we've all got Jens germs and bloody, we

260
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 1: all have bodies, and we've all got to navigate and

261
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,360
Speaker 1: negotiate health and wellness and life and performance. So I

262
00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 1: prefer listening, but either buy a hard copy or have

263
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,320
Speaker 1: a listen everyone. But I want to come to that

264
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,640
Speaker 1: in a moment because I've got a few questions out

265
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,320
Speaker 1: of the book, or a few topics out of the

266
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 1: book I want to cover with you. But I wanted

267
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: to know your thoughts on And this is probably not

268
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 1: something you talk about a lot or think about a lot,

269
00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,600
Speaker 1: but it intersects with my world and your world. There's

270
00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,400
Speaker 1: a bit of a bro science term that which is

271
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,760
Speaker 1: biological age. It is used legitimately in science, but also

272
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 1: you know, like there are some really crappy protocols that

273
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 1: people do are a bioage test in twelve minutes, doc,

274
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they go, oh, well,

275
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,280
Speaker 1: I'm forty eight, but my biological age is thirty two

276
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,480
Speaker 1: because they've done I don't know, a questionnaire, and you know,

277
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,480
Speaker 1: some some really basic not very scientifically valid test from

278
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 1: one of a better term, But what are your thoughts

279
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 1: around one? You know?

280
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 2: So?

281
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,280
Speaker 1: And if anyone's thinking, what do I mean some chronological age?

282
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 1: Obviously I'm sixty one. Biological age, in I guess Layman's terms,

283
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,240
Speaker 1: is you know how my body works in inverted commas,

284
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,720
Speaker 1: from a functional point of view, from a health point

285
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,960
Speaker 1: of view, from a bunch, but basically how well my

286
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:51,320
Speaker 1: body works. And I guess biologically, physiologically and functionally how

287
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,320
Speaker 1: my body is going for my age. It's probably not

288
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 1: a great explanation, but it's in the ballpark. But what

289
00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 1: are your thoughts around biological college versus chronological age? Is

290
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,119
Speaker 1: it term that you use or not?

291
00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,080
Speaker 2: It's not a term that I use or come across

292
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,199
Speaker 2: very often, But I get the gist of what the

293
00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:15,400
Speaker 2: idea is about. You know, you have your however many

294
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,480
Speaker 2: laps you went around the sun versus what sort of

295
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 2: health attributes you exhibit? And I think, you know, being

296
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,959
Speaker 2: a scientist about this sort of thing, I'm very skeptical

297
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 2: about these sorts of claims because they don't seem to

298
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,679
Speaker 2: be backed up by evidence of any kind. They just

299
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,080
Speaker 2: seem to be someone's idea. It reminds me of the

300
00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,639
Speaker 2: whole dog years. I mean, you can say, oh, my

301
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,879
Speaker 2: dog's eight, but in human years, that's like one hundred

302
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,400
Speaker 2: and ten, So my dog's really old. No, your dog's eight,

303
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,600
Speaker 2: and your dog is eight years old and it acts

304
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,320
Speaker 2: like an eight year old dog. You know, you don't

305
00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:01,000
Speaker 2: need to translate it into human years to understand better

306
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 2: what the dog is going to be like. So when

307
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,800
Speaker 2: someone has a chronological chronological age of let's just say fifty,

308
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,879
Speaker 2: nice round number, and they want to say that I

309
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,879
Speaker 2: have a biological age of thirty two, what does that

310
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 2: mean exactly? And I don't think you can paint it

311
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,640
Speaker 2: with such a broad brush because there may be some

312
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,240
Speaker 2: features of you that feel younger okay, yes, but there's

313
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,560
Speaker 2: other features that you can't turn the clock back on,

314
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 2: you know. So I would really like to scrutinize the

315
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,200
Speaker 2: algorithms or the equations that they use to deduce what

316
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,879
Speaker 2: a biological age is and what in fact that what

317
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,320
Speaker 2: the definition of that truly is, because I'll be honest

318
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:54,080
Speaker 2: with you, Craig on you know, on some days I

319
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,960
Speaker 2: feel like my chronological age is far less than my

320
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,480
Speaker 2: biological age. Yeah, but then I have other days where

321
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 2: it's flip flop. So I think it's a little transient

322
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,959
Speaker 2: if you will. It's it's not like a stable concept. Yeah, well,

323
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 2: depends on how you're feeling, what you eat, you know what,

324
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 2: what illness you might have. Who knows one hundred percent.

325
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 1: I feel like, sorry about my blurred head. I don't

326
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 1: know what's going on there. I feel yeah, like my

327
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 1: shoulders feel like they're about one hundred and ten years old.

328
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,120
Speaker 2: Both my rotag in dog ears they are only five, So.

329
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 1: That's very funny. Yeah, both my rotator cuffs should be

330
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,840
Speaker 1: in an old person's home. But you know, like my

331
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,240
Speaker 1: actual muscle strength is probably atypical for my age. But yeah,

332
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 1: you're right, there are some things that depending on you know,

333
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,560
Speaker 1: how it's measured and all of that. But I've just

334
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 1: got it here in front of me. And again, this

335
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,040
Speaker 1: is this is not great science. Estimating biological aid. It

336
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,120
Speaker 1: involves measuring a variety of biomarkers and factors that reflect

337
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:08,200
Speaker 1: the body's physiological condition, which may differ from chronological age.

338
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 1: The key variables and factors commonly used to estimate bioage

339
00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 1: so epigenetic markers, DNA methylation, telemeal length, inflammatory markers, c

340
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 1: reactive protein inter lukens, metabolic health, glucose metabolism, cholesterol levels.

341
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,959
Speaker 1: But even with all this mitochondrial function, physical and functional movements,

342
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 1: cardiovascular health, blood pressure, arterial stiffness, body composition, mass, fat

343
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 1: hormone levels, bah bah. But even with that, I don't

344
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: know who developed that and whether or not, you know,

345
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,680
Speaker 1: those protocols have been validated in any shape or form.

346
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:50,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, but it I think the fact remains that sometimes, Yeah,

347
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,400
Speaker 1: our level of function is older or younger in inverted

348
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 1: commas than our laps around the sun.

349
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I know my biological age goes down with

350
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 2: a cup of coffee, so you know who knows coffee?

351
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: Take me mind changes over the day. I'm about forty

352
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: when I get up. Yeah, I'm about ninety two by

353
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock.

354
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,960
Speaker 2: There you go. Just before we leave this topic for

355
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 2: the for the benefit of the listeners, there may be

356
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: something too, like individual markers that you spoke about, like

357
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 2: telomere length. Telomere integrity is definitely correlated with cellular aging.

358
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 2: But how all these biomarkers interact with one another. We're

359
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,080
Speaker 2: just in the infancy of understanding all of those complexities. Okay,

360
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 2: So I would hate for someone to hear that they

361
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: have a biomarker that makes them, you know, that is

362
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 2: supposed to be unhealthy or only seen in elderly people. Yeah,

363
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 2: you don't want to mislead them with that sort of information.

364
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,440
Speaker 2: And by the same token, you don't want to mislead

365
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 2: someone who genuine little like might need to take a

366
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 2: statin or something. But hey, your chronal, your biological age

367
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 2: is much younger, and then they might not have they

368
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 2: might avoid a life saving medicine you know that older

369
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 2: people take. So I would I would be very wary

370
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: about those sorts of comparisons because we simply don't know

371
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 2: enough about how the body works holistically. When when you

372
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: talk about these sorts of biomarkers, now that said, there

373
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 2: might be truth to one or two of them.

374
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I think I think one of the

375
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 1: dangers right now, and I'm probably guilty of this as

376
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,679
Speaker 1: well a little bit, is that a lot of people

377
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: get their information from Instagram or Facebook or or YouTube

378
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 1: or the Bloody Youth Project or do you know what

379
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: I mean.

380
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: It's like, and there's irresponsible podcasters.

381
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, but I mean it is true

382
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: and you need to and all. So then we get

383
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 1: people who have a little bit of knowledge about an

384
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: area but not much knowledge like zero knowledge and other

385
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: other related and important areas, you know. So it's like

386
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: some people might know a lot whatever, for example, about nutrition,

387
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 1: but nothing about sleep or training or physiological adaptation in

388
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 1: other ways, or stress or anxiety or the impact of

389
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: environment on the body or you know, and so all

390
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: of their their solution is all food based, you know,

391
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: which again is looking through a particular prism you.

392
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, buyer beware, you know. And it's getting tough

393
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 2: nowadays to discern in some cases who really knows their

394
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 2: stuff and who doesn't. So, you know, it helps if

395
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: people are being honest, but when people are chasing lakes

396
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 2: and follows and advertiser money, there's that integrity kind of

397
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: goes down the dream. Sometimes I always fall back on

398
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: looking for the experts who actually know their field very well.

399
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 2: So like if you and I started launching into a

400
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:15,359
Speaker 2: talk on let's say, you know, black holes or something

401
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 2: like that, I am not qualified to talk about that.

402
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: You know. I can throw a whole bunch of garbage

403
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 2: and jargon around that reflects my superficial knowledge of these things,

404
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 2: but that's not something I'm qualified to talk about it.

405
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 2: We can still have a conversation, but people would have

406
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 2: to know, Hey, he knows about epigenetics and genes and stuff,

407
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: but he knows about as much as black holes as

408
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 2: you know that dog he was talking about earlier.

409
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 1: So well, if we start talking about teleportation, then my

410
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: ears are going to prick up, because that would be

411
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: very good.

412
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 2: That would be cool.

413
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: Let's lean in a little bit to your book. So

414
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: the tenth time, everyone, please meet me germs and the

415
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: curious forces that makes who we are, Doctor Bill Sullivan.

416
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 1: So there's a bunch of themes in the book and

417
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 1: a bunch of kind of subject matter that you that

418
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: you cover before I open the door and go tell

419
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: us about this. Is there are there particular thing like

420
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: which do you want to do it this way where

421
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: I just riff and then you tell us about that,

422
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: Or are there three or four or five key things

423
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: out of the book that you would just rather that

424
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: you know are broadly relevant you want to share with us.

425
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: I don't mind which way we go.

426
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: Ad or mind either. Just to maybe explain a little

427
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 2: bit to the audience that the mean theme of the

428
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: book It's kind of like an updated user manual for

429
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 2: the human body, not just in a physical way, but

430
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 2: in a mental way as well. Because what got me

431
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: interested in it stems from the work we do in

432
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: my research lab, you know, where we study a parasite

433
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: that infects a billion and over a billion people and,

434
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: according to some studies, can affect their behaviors. So this,

435
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: you know, put that light bulb over my head. What

436
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 2: other things might be in our body that control us

437
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: or influence us that we don't know about, you know,

438
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: because we need to educate ourselves about how these forces

439
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 2: work individually and collectively, so that we can understand who

440
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: we are, why we do the things we do, and

441
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: just as importantly, why don't others act the same way

442
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: we do. Why do they have different beliefs, you know,

443
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: different habits and so on. So that got me to

444
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: thinking about genes. That's a pretty obvious hidden feature. You know,

445
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: most people don't know what genes they have, and most

446
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 2: people don't realize that genes go far beyond our physical makeup.

447
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 2: They govern a lot of things about our personality and

448
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 2: behavior and can be quite strong influencers. It's not to

449
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: say we're genetically predetermined by any means. Because the second

450
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: force I talk about as epigenetics, which is how your

451
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: environment can like turn volume knobs of those genes up

452
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 2: and down. So there's certainly room within you your genetic

453
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: limitations if you will, to change things, so the environment

454
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: can be critically important. And then I talk about microbes

455
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 2: like the one I mentioned earlier, the parasite and the

456
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: brain that might affect activity. Well, lo and behold, that's

457
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 2: just a tip of the iceberg. You know, there's three

458
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 2: pounds of bacteria, fungi and other microbes in our gut

459
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: that increasingly evidence shows has a profound effect on our

460
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: physical and mental health. And these studies are just mind

461
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: blowing and really create an entire new arena for potential

462
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: medical intervention. And of course there's evolutionary ghosts. You mentioned

463
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: this a little bit at the beginning of the podcast, Craig,

464
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: where a lot of our behavior is embedded with in

465
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 2: evolutionary psychology. So a lot of the things we do,

466
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: a lot of the things we worry about, a lot

467
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 2: of the ways we eat, what sort of foods we're

468
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: attracted to, what sort of bodies we're attracted to, all

469
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 2: have a deep evolutionary past, and it is remarkably insightful

470
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: to keep that in mind when you're trying to understand

471
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: human behavior. So the book tries to tie all that together,

472
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 2: these multiple forces operating under the hood, because if we

473
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 2: understand them, then we can understand ourselves and one another

474
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 2: in a more productive fashion.

475
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: So, given the influence and the impact about biology ad genetics,

476
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: do you think we have as much control over our

477
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 1: choices and behaviors as we think we do.

478
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 2: I was really hoping that was the case when I

479
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 2: began the research for this book, because I liked to

480
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: think that there's still a great deal of agency associated

481
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: with being human. And this has been debated for a

482
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: very long time, and there's, you know, debates that are

483
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: still raging today. Some people are we don't have any

484
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: free will whatsoever. Everything is predetermined. We live in a

485
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: deterministic universe, so you know, how can we possibly have

486
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: free will? And then there's others that says we've evolved

487
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: to a point with such a sophisticated brain and ability

488
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 2: to make decisions, weigh pros and cons and all that,

489
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: that clearly there is some level of free will. And

490
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: there's a whole bunch of people in the middle, and

491
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: I think I don't fall in the middle of that debate.

492
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: I skew towards less and less free will, but I

493
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 2: would still like to leave that door open. It just

494
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: feels natural to me. But I know that that is

495
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: not evidence. That is not a good, you know, experimental

496
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: way to prove a case for free will. Well, just

497
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: because you feel like you have it. Our brain makes

498
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: us feel many things it likes to trick us, so

499
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: that could very well be another one of the brain's tricks.

500
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: But like I said as I was researching this book,

501
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: when you think about, you know, you don't control what

502
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: genes you were born with. You don't control your prenatal environment,

503
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 2: which alters a lot of the expression of those genes.

504
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: You don't control the environment you had as a young child,

505
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: which configures the settings on these genes, and a lot

506
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: of data says that that can't change, you know, or

507
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: at least can't change much after it's been pre set.

508
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: And then you think about the evolutionary constraints that were

509
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,959
Speaker 2: under So at the end of the day, long winded

510
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: answer to your question, but it's a really insightful philosophical

511
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: question that I think people should talk about more. Is

512
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: that I think the circle of free will has shrunk

513
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: dramatically from this from when I went into the research

514
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 2: on this book to when I finished writing it. But

515
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: I still feel like I could be a bird in

516
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: the cage, you know, and there's still a little room

517
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: to walk around and sim songs and be happy. So

518
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: that's that's what gets me through the day.

519
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: And also, yeah, well one that's very insightful, too mildly

520
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: terrifying to think that I don't have any come just

521
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm just at the whim of my genetics.

522
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: You are a bird in the cage.

523
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I think also, you know, one of the

524
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: one of the things too, is like what is what

525
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: is comfortable for us? You know? It's like you said,

526
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: you'd like to think that or I feel like and

527
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: that's the thing, isn't It's like what I want to

528
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: be true might not be true, and it might not

529
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: suit my story and it might not suit my you know,

530
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: emotional kind of whatever, you know, But that's that's the thing.

531
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: Could you give us an example, I think you said

532
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: something like obviously talking about epigenetics, the way that our

533
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: our correct me if I've fuck anything up, because I'm

534
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: not you, but we can turn up or down the

535
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: volume on certain genes depending on environment might have that.

536
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: Could you give a practical example of how something might

537
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: be affected by environment, like a real world Like when

538
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: you say that, I'm like, I'm trying to think, what

539
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: does that look like in the real world for one

540
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: of our listeners.

541
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, So there there's many many examples out there.

542
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: In the book goes into quite a few some of

543
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 2: the more tangible examples that I think, you know, based

544
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: on the talks they've given that people hook up to

545
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: or that you know you're just exercise can really alter

546
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: genus expression in the muscle groups and some of the

547
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: organs that are benefiting from exercise. So, for example, there

548
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: was a nicely controlled study I forget what country this

549
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 2: was done in, but people were asked the subjects of

550
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: this study were asked to exercise with one leg but

551
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 2: the other leg stayed inactive, and they did this for

552
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 2: I don't know, three or four weeks, and then at

553
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 2: the end of the study they took some blood samples

554
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 2: and looked at epigenetic patterns on the genes, which is

555
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: basically a readout of which genes expression got altered. So

556
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: in the leg that received exercise, there was a lot

557
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: of epigenetic changes turning on genes that correspond with better health,

558
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: better metabolism, and the other leg this didn't happen. So

559
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: you can easily change your genes expression just by doing

560
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: some very basic things. Another really remarkable study, and this

561
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: is this is one that really blows my mind, is

562
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:13,959
Speaker 2: that meditators like monks you were talking about, master meditators,

563
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: people who are very good and well practiced in the

564
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: art of meditation, when they study their epigenetic patterns, they

565
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 2: have changes at genes that are linked to stress and anxiety,

566
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: and they're much they're dialed way back down. And then

567
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: they took that as like a justification to see what

568
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: would happen in your average Joe if they started to meditate,

569
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: and in a very short time, I think it was

570
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 2: like two or four weeks, just like a half hour

571
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 2: of meditation a day, this guided meditation that they listen to,

572
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: they started seeing the same epigenetic changes at their genes

573
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: that are die piling down stress and anxiety. It's pretty remarkable.

574
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 2: And in addition to that, they see epigenetic changes at

575
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: physical health points too, So like genes that would be

576
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: associated with lower blood pressure, for example. And it just

577
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 2: blows my mind that there's something we can do mentally,

578
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: such as meditation, that can actually alter the epigenetic patterns

579
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 2: on our genes, which at the end of the day

580
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: changes gene expression. So this gives us great hope that

581
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: there can be very simple things that we can do

582
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: in our lives. A better diet, better exercise, and stress

583
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: reduction techniques like guided meditation or maybe like nature walks,

584
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 2: things like that can make very quick alterations in our

585
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 2: genes that could explain the health benefits that most people

586
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: receive if they start engaging in these healthy activities.

587
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the probably the terrible classifications that happens

588
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: in exercise science and some other sciences is body type.

589
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: And there are a bunch of different ones in different fields.

590
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: But so endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph you've heard of that, I

591
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: guess have you heard of that again? Endomorph mesomorph, ecdomorph

592
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: have you heard of that?

593
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: I'm not sure?

594
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll explain it for me. Yeah. Yeah, So

595
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: an endomorph is a person. Now this is talk about

596
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: a crap qualification or a crap classification, but this is

597
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: what I got taught in my first degree excise science. Right,

598
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: So people fall into one of three categories, generally allegedly

599
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: your honor, that is, they are an ectomorph. And they

600
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 1: call so people who struggle to gain fat and muscle

601
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: a mesomorph. Somebody who's naturally more muscular, stocky, robust, athletic, powerful,

602
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: you know, like a linebacker or something, or offensive lineman

603
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,919
Speaker 1: or you know, or a or a field athlete, shot

604
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: put a thrower, anyone like that. And an endomorph is

605
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: somebody who is predisposed to gain fat more easily and

606
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: all of that. But the funny thing is that it's

607
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: like in the real world, it doesn't work like that.

608
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 1: Like almost nobody sits squarely in any of those categories.

609
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: And if you hadn't looked at me at fourteen years

610
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: of age, you would have said, oh, he is one

611
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: hundred and two percent endomorph. And then if you looked

612
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: at me now you would say, well, he's mesomorph, right,

613
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: is one hundred percent mesomorph. But it's really just because

614
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: of how I eat and how I live and how

615
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: I move my body. And yeah, so it's it's it's

616
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: funny how many things get passed off as science that

617
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: we grew I grew up in that model anyway, where

618
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: we would talk to clients and athletes all the time

619
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: about the mesomorphic or enomorphic or ectomorphic genetic tendencies or predisposition,

620
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: you know, but it's kind of bullshit.

621
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah, Like for those sorts of traits,

622
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: there's a lot of flexibility. There are very few traits

623
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 2: that are like, you know, ninety to one hundred percent predictives,

624
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: most of which are associated with disease states.

625
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: But when you're.

626
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: Talking about complex physical attributes and even more complicated behaviors,

627
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: there's hundreds of genes, maybe thousands of genes that partake

628
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 2: in that particular trait. So I think there's a lot

629
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: of flexibility. So yeah, I get what you're saying. And

630
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: it's all a matter of your environment too, as to

631
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: what may be prompted those changes, you know, from struggling

632
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: with weight and food to achieving a better lifestyle. What

633
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 2: some people are going to have an easier time at

634
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 2: that than others.

635
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: What does your research doc tell us about the role

636
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: of genetics in personality emotions? And you know, even the

637
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: way that even now I don't know for what this

638
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: is not science here, but for one of better term

639
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: our worldview, the way that we think, the way that

640
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: we process the world around us. How much of that?

641
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: And I know it's I know there's no definitive number,

642
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: but tell us about that a little bit. You know,

643
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: like if Craig Harper the same same body, same genetics.

644
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: If I was raised next door to you in the

645
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: States and mum and dad were Mormons, and you know,

646
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in a different place, I

647
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 1: was the same DNA.

648
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: But I had fifteen kids by now, yeah.

649
00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: I'd have fifteen kids and four station wagons. But the

650
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: shout out to my Mormon listeners, both of you, Yeah,

651
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: what tell us about that?

652
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: Right? So that's a perfect example against this genetic determinism

653
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: concept where just because you have a certain blueprint, if

654
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 2: you will in your DNA, how that blueprint unfolds is

655
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 2: going to depend a great deal on the environment you're in.

656
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: And that's the reason for that is epigenetics, because studies

657
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: have been done on identical twins that have the same

658
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: exact genome, you know, their clones. But if you set

659
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: up the example where one of the twins moves away

660
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: and does something very different or is in a very

661
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: different environment, they're going to exhibit differences. And when scientists

662
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: look at the epigenetic patterns on their genomes, despite the

663
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 2: fact that all the genes are the same, that epigenetic

664
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 2: patterns are not because because they were dictated by the

665
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,439
Speaker 2: different environments that they were in. And that's what brings

666
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 2: about the differences in their appearance and behavior. Many people

667
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 2: don't realize that identical twins very often as they age

668
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: do have subtle differences in their appearance and sometimes dramatic

669
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 2: differences in their behavior.

670
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, one hundred percent, and you can you.

671
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 2: Can take I think I might have said this example

672
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: on your podcast before, but if if let's say I'm

673
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: genetically predetermined to be six feet tall, yeah, you stick

674
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: me in a malnourished environment, that's never going to happen.

675
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 2: So your environment is really a critical variable in how

676
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 2: your genetic program unfolds, how it manifests itself.

677
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. So can you can you talk about how some

678
00:41:54,600 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: of the biological traits we've inherited through evolution, ah maladaptive

679
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 1: in modern society.

680
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Like the classic example is diet. So back

681
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 2: when we were hunter gatherers, there was a really strong

682
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: selective pressure to go after high calorie foods because they

683
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: were extremely rare back then. So we're talking about sugars

684
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: and fats. Why do they taste so to us? It's

685
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: because we are evolutionarily designed to seek out sweet flavors

686
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 2: and fats for their high colure content. They gave us

687
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: an abundance of energy and an environment that really didn't

688
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 2: have a lot of calories. There was a strong selective

689
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 2: pressure to develop a sweet tooth and a taste for fats,

690
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: high calorie foods. Salts another thing that we have a

691
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: taste for. Those items are not rare anymore. They're super abundant.

692
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: It is so easy to get a ton of sugar, fats,

693
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,959
Speaker 2: and salt in contrast to the lifestyles our ancestors led.

694
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: So we are biologically tuned to still seek out sugar

695
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: and fats, but unfortunately we're an environment where they're readily

696
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: accessible and people can just continue to eat them all

697
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: day long. That would have been unheard of in the

698
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 2: lifestyle that we had for about one hundred thousand years.

699
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 2: So that's what scientists call a genetic mismatch. It is

700
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 2: a mismatch between our environment of long ago, the way

701
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 2: we were evolutionarily, you know, created versus the environment we

702
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: have today. Sedentary lifestyle is the same way many people

703
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 2: struggle with weight because our lifestyle for most people is

704
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: sitting down and doing things that don't burn a lot

705
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: of calories. We don't get exercise, we don't move our

706
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: bodies very much. That wasn't the case, you know, back

707
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: on the savannah when we were hunting for food and

708
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: looking for the vegetables and roots to eat, So there

709
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: was a lot more activity than what we have now.

710
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 2: So we've I kind of refer to this as we're

711
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: victims of our own success. We've created a world where

712
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: there's abundant calories, there's very little need to exercise, you know,

713
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of people that's an unpleasant activity. Yes,

714
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: but you don't need to do that if you don't

715
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 2: want to. So we've created a world that our body

716
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: is just not well suited to fit. It's like we're

717
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 2: a square peg, but the world we made is round.

718
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like that's right. It's like life used

719
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: to be uncomfortable, like practically uncomfortable for most of our

720
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: human timeline or evolutionary timeline, because we had to hunt,

721
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: we had to gather, we had to grow, we had

722
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 1: to fight, we had to find water. There was no electricity,

723
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: there were no fridgides, there was no you know. It's like,

724
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: and now we most I mean, I'm generalizing that I

725
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: could be wrong, but I feel like most people's priority

726
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: on some level is comfort, you know, And like nobody

727
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: wants discomfort, nobody wants uncertainty, nobody wants the unknown or

728
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: the unfamiliar. Everyone wants to know what's coming. Everyone wants

729
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 1: to you know, well it's a bit warm, turn on

730
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: the air conditioning, or it's a bit cold, turn on

731
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: the heat, you know. And I understand all of that.

732
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: I'm not totally different either, but it's like, it's in

733
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:38,959
Speaker 1: this pursuit or comfort and certainty and predictability that we've

734
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: made ourselves more vulnerable in a bad way, not vulnerable

735
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: in a good way. And like the very thing that

736
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: we talk about, especially in corporate land, that I inhabit

737
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,240
Speaker 1: probably more than you. In corporate land, they're always talking

738
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: about resilience, but the way that we live creates the

739
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: opposite of resilience. It creates weakness, it creates dysfunction, it

740
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: creates a fucking plethora of problems sociological, emotional, psychological, and physiological,

741
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: because we are so concerned with getting on the couch,

742
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: you know, the sofa, either literal or metaphoric, and we're

743
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: always going to do the hard thing soon, but not today.

744
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: I think we've backed ourselves into a metaphoric corner in

745
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: some ways.

746
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. And that's one of the things I

747
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: try to stress in the book too, is I'm trying

748
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: to open people's eyes to this mismatch between the world

749
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 2: we inhabit today and what our bodies and minds are

750
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,879
Speaker 2: you know, should be doing, you know. And the way

751
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 2: to I think better well being is not necessarily to

752
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 2: live like our ancestors did. I don't want to deprive anyone,

753
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: especially myself, of air conditioning or heat this winter. I

754
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,439
Speaker 2: like it comfort. I'm not trying to talk anybody out

755
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: of that. But I also like the comfort of not

756
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: having heart disease, you know, of not having you know,

757
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 2: brittle bones. You know. I want to eat well and

758
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: exercise so that I can keep my telomeres as long

759
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: as possible. Right, So you have to think about comfort

760
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: in a different way. And I go back to what

761
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: you said earlier about instant gratification. This is the concept

762
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: we need to kind of exercise out of our mind.

763
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: We need to get instant gratification off the front burner

764
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 2: and put it on the back burner. Why because a

765
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: lot of instant gratification will make you happy in the

766
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 2: short term, but will make you miserable in the long term,

767
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: and that leads to unhappiness and a reduction in the

768
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 2: quality of life. So if you can put aside some

769
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 2: of the sweets and eat more healthy, if you can

770
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 2: get up off the couch and go for a walk

771
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: or a run, those are going to lead to better

772
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: physical outcomes obviously, but it will also increase your well

773
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: being at a at a mental health level as well.

774
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 2: And so it's a different kind of comfort, you know,

775
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 2: going for going more for sustainable content throughout your entire

776
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 2: life versus a whole bunch of instant gratification right now

777
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: with a bunch of misery ahead.

778
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know that the truth is that

779
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: and I say this too many times, but it never

780
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: isn't true. I don't think is that the you know,

781
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: the thing that we want isn't always the thing that

782
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: we need in terms of our own you know, personal welfare.

783
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: And you know, longevity and health span and all of

784
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 1: those things, and like that, you think about how many

785
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 1: things are sold on the premise of instant or quick.

786
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: You know, everyone wants a hack, everyone wants a shortcut,

787
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: everyone wants two minute abs, everyone wants to you know,

788
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: it's like that's what sells. I mean, most companies, most marketers,

789
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: most branding people know that if they can if they

790
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: can trick you or you know, convince you that you

791
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: can get where you want to get with our thing,

792
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: the thing that we're selling, and you'll get there quicker

793
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: and easier, and the thing that we're selling will do

794
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: most of the work.

795
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 2: Therefore you don't have to Well, that thing is going

796
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,280
Speaker 2: to sell absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up, because

797
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,720
Speaker 2: that is a point that I also make multiple times

798
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: in the book and a lot of the subsequent writing,

799
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 2: the articles they've written afterwards, because everyone comes to me,

800
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,320
Speaker 2: and you know, people talk about this all the time,

801
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 2: about these life hacks, these shortcuts, most of which have

802
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 2: no evidence behind them at all, And just because something

803
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 2: works for one person doesn't mean it's going to work

804
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 2: for you. The it is utterly boring, but the best

805
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 2: advice you can you can receive is eat better, exercise more.

806
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 2: That's all you need to do. All these other little

807
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: hacks you know, TikTok videos, these wellness, eat these herbs,

808
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: take these supplements, give me your money, and give me

809
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 2: your money. You can save yourself a lot of money

810
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,439
Speaker 2: and heartache just by doing what your parents always told

811
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 2: you to do.

812
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.

813
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 2: Oh.

814
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: And also you know that the idea that you know,

815
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: like move move better, eat better, well, that doesn't make

816
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: anyone any money, doc, I.

817
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 2: Mean exactly, And that's how it should be. That's how exactly.

818
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 2: That's what I'm trying to I'm trying to help people,

819
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: you know, don't waste your money on this.

820
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: Stuff, exactly. And this is why you know, it's like

821
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:07,280
Speaker 1: the just eat better and move better. People roll their eyes,

822
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, all right, don't get it. But what

823
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: do I do though, I'm like, hell, you know, all right?

824
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,919
Speaker 1: I used to say I still do. Sometimes I'd say,

825
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,879
Speaker 1: write me a list of what you eat, and then

826
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: don't change what you eat. Just write me a list

827
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: of what you eat for a week, or time you

828
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: go to bed, what time you get up, write down

829
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: all your exercise. Be as exact as you can with

830
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: all of it, and just bring me seven days worth

831
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: of information and we'll just start with that. There's no

832
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tear you apart. There's no annihilation

833
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: or humiliation. There's just like, because all you're doing is

834
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: putting data on pages for me or on a computer

835
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: or whatever. And then when I see what you eat

836
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,440
Speaker 1: micros and macros and energy in and out and sets

837
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: and reps and volume and walking and distance and you know, sleep,

838
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 1: and then we can start to figure out, oh, well,

839
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 1: this is what you typically to do. This is your

840
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: normal operating system and what you look and feel and

841
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: function like, that's the outcome. Right. Of course there's some

842
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: genetic influence there. But now let's look at how you

843
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: are physically and how you want to be physically, and

844
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 1: let's look at what you Well, then we can start

845
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: to do some N equals one science you know where

846
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 1: we go. Okay, well, why don't we try this. So

847
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: you have alcohol four days a week, Let's for the

848
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: next two weeks have alcohol two days, you know, and

849
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: let's not double it on those two days, you know,

850
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 1: and you normally and you normally eat this kind of bread.

851
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: Let's maybe try that kind of bread. And you know

852
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 1: you're not doing any any walking at all, So let's

853
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: let's chuck in like five kilometers or three miles of

854
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: walking that's going to take you about sixty minutes or

855
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,080
Speaker 1: you know. So all of a sudden, where we're starting

856
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: to create a protocol that is for us, that will

857
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: work for us. And it's like, there's two distinct benefits.

858
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: One is the obvious benefits of changing our body. But

859
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 1: the second and maybe more important benefit is who we

860
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: become doing that hard thing. Who would become mentally and

861
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: emotionally doing the hard thing that we don't want to do,

862
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: especially when you can, because what you're doing is you're creating.

863
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: Sorry I feel like I'm on my bloody high horse here,

864
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: but what you're doing is you're creating a new and

865
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: improved version of you. So now the thing that used

866
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 1: to require discipline, self control, willpower and motivation, it doesn't

867
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: anymore because you've created a new normal. And that's the

868
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: ultimate goal with this stuff.

869
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: I think I like the way you're having people wade

870
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 2: into the water a little bit, taking those baby steps

871
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,239
Speaker 2: so it's not such an abrupt change. I think that

872
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 2: is much more effective. Get people to nudge towards better behaviors,

873
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,399
Speaker 2: better healthier behaviors. That's going to be pretty successful. And then,

874
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 2: like you said, those nudges, those small behavioral changes become

875
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 2: new habits in and of themselves. And once people start

876
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 2: feeling better, they feel better rested, they have more energy,

877
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 2: you know, they're maybe losing weight. They're thinking more clearly,

878
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 2: why would you want to stop the program? You know,

879
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:16,959
Speaker 2: you want to maintain that level of you know, productivity

880
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 2: in your life. And one of the other components of

881
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,839
Speaker 2: the book where diet and exercise is critically important is

882
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 2: through the microbiome. These bacteria that live in your intestines

883
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 2: are controlling a great deal or at least influencing a

884
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,479
Speaker 2: great deal of what's actually going on in the rest

885
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 2: of your body, including your brain. So most people on

886
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 2: what is called the SAD diet, the standard American diet,

887
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 2: which is filled with sugar, fats, and salt, okay, a

888
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: lot of preservatives, a lot of unnatural processed foods. Whenever

889
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: you look at the microbiome of people who subsist on

890
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 2: that diet, it's been depleted of many of the bacterial

891
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 2: species that are present in individuals who don't eat that crap. Okay.

892
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 2: Individuals who have a healthy diet have a thriving microbiome

893
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 2: that is filled with all sorts of different species and

894
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: secrete metabolites chemicals that are associated which must with much

895
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 2: better physical and mental health. So what scientists have started

896
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 2: to do, and some of this is in rodent models,

897
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: but there have been some studies in people. Now they

898
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 2: modify diets in very specific, well controlled ways and they

899
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:45,440
Speaker 2: can see changes in the microbiome. So a lot of

900
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 2: the beneficial changes in the microbiome are a result of

901
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 2: reducing the sugars, reducing the fats, eating less red meat,

902
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 2: eating more vegetables, and getting a lot more fiber of

903
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 2: those components. And again this is stuff that people know.

904
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 2: It's just it's a lot easier to grab the twinkie

905
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 2: or the candy bar. You have to resist those temptations

906
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 2: and just start eating real food again and moving your body.

907
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 2: Your microbiome will change as a result of that and

908
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 2: start making chemicals that make your brain even function better.

909
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 2: So it's it's really cool science and if people want

910
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:27,000
Speaker 2: to learn more, they can read the book. But a

911
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 2: lot more has been written about the microbiomes since there

912
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 2: really seems to be strong connections in diet, microbiome, health

913
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 2: and mental health.

914
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 1: It's funny. The next question I was literally going to

915
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 1: ask you, was are there any emerging treatments for mental

916
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: health conditions that focus on you know, the microbiome. So

917
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 1: you answered it, yeah, it's it's amazing. Was there in

918
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: your research, like in in the you know, all the

919
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: research that you did for the book and all the

920
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 1: and all the prep and all the planning, and was

921
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: there one thing that stood out to you, one one

922
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: kind of thing that you learned. And I know your

923
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 1: learning is ongoing and it's been ongoing for decades, but

924
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 1: was there one standout thing that you've learned in this

925
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: whole kind of exploration that blew you away, that surprised

926
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: you more than anything else, one insight or one one discovery.

927
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was the one thing that stands out in

928
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 2: my mind the most was studies that relate to aggression

929
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 2: and violence. So for a long time, there was you know,

930
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 2: people think that this is you talk about free will

931
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 2: and agency. You know, the United States still has capital

932
00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 2: punishment for people who murder other individuals, and we have

933
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 2: harsh jail sentences for criminal activity, thinking that that's going

934
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 2: to deter crime, and we don't give any thought to

935
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 2: what caused that individual to behave that way. We blame

936
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 2: the victim, if you will, Okay, if you want to

937
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 2: call a criminal a victim. A lot of people have

938
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 2: problems with that, and I understand and I'm sensitive to it.

939
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 2: But what got me starting to change my mind was

940
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 2: that there are genetic studies that show genes linked to

941
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 2: aggression and violence, and they are usually amplified through epigenetic

942
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 2: changes in poor environments. Okay, So if a child is

943
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 2: subjected to aces adverse childhood events like bullying, neglect, abuse,

944
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: and they have these genes that predispose them towards aggression

945
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 2: and violence for disaster, So these individuals tend to have

946
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 2: no impulse control, they tend to have rage disorder, and

947
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: it's really hard to get inside of their head if

948
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 2: you don't act that way. But it's an uncontrollable urge,

949
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 2: it's an uncontrollable behavior. What really struck me was that

950
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 2: scientists can go into a mouse model and make changes

951
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 2: in these same genes and the mice become hyper competitive,

952
00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 2: hyper aggressive. So there's a real genetic component to even

953
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 2: heinous behavior. Now this is not a get out of

954
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 2: jail free card. Craig, This is, you know, we still

955
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 2: got to lock people up if they are dangerously violent,

956
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 2: but we what we can learn from these sorts of

957
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 2: studies is that behavior is strongly influenced by genes, and

958
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 2: what we really need to do is understand how they

959
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 2: environment can maybe deter those what those genes influence that

960
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: person towards. So some studies have been done that show

961
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 2: individuals with these genetic mutations, if they're in an environment

962
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: where they are nourished, you know, you know, they have

963
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 2: plenty of healthy foods, they have good school systems, they're

964
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 2: not subjected to these aces. We don't see these problems

965
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 2: in those individuals. So that is that is screaming to

966
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 2: me that our whole system of jurisprudence is upside down.

967
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 2: Rather than dealing with problem people, we need to recognize

968
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 2: that we are creating environments that generate problem people and

969
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 2: we need to fix those environments to benefit everybody. But

970
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,600
Speaker 2: we like to blame the victim, right, we like to

971
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 2: blame the victim. But what you need to ask yourself,

972
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:00,919
Speaker 2: and this this was something that I read while because

973
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 2: I struggled with this a lot. I was of the

974
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 2: mind that, you know, if you're a criminal, lock you up,

975
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 2: throw away the key, I don't really care, you know. Yeah, yeah,

976
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 2: but these these studies have made me a little more

977
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 2: sympathetic towards what individuals who grow up in poverty, who

978
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 2: grow up in adverse environments, what they truly struggle with.

979
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 2: And you really got to put yourself in that mindset

980
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 2: and ask yourself, how in the world would I have

981
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,959
Speaker 2: done any different? You know, I wouldn't have had any

982
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had any other options that you know,

983
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 2: these individuals are deprived of. I probably would have turned out,

984
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 2: you know, very similarly. So instead of trying to incarcerate,

985
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 2: I mean, we've still got to incarcerate people to keep

986
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 2: society safe, but we got to work on fixing the

987
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 2: environment instead of blaming the people who are stuck in it.

988
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a tricky conundrum because you know, when

989
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 1: some people are genetically predisposed to be a certain way,

990
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: like we all are, right, just most of us. Not

991
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: for aggression and violence, thankfully, but that I wonder if

992
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: you're going to get called into court one day to explain.

993
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 2: Ah it happens, that happens. Robert Sapolski is frequently called

994
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 2: into death penalty cases because he has done a lot

995
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 2: of research on these so called warrior genes that have

996
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 2: been linked to aggressive and violence, and it's basically to

997
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 2: argue that this person really didn't have control over their actions. Yes,

998
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 2: there was an individual. I think the very first instance

999
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 2: of this in the US was in twenty eleven someone

1000
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 2: who was in the court. They didn't get to death penalty,

1001
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 2: they got life imprisonment, but they were spared to death

1002
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 2: penalty for murder because of their genetics. So this happens.

1003
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 2: But the silver lining there is that once we know

1004
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 2: gene x Y or Z is linked to violence, we

1005
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 2: figure out what that gene is doing, what product does

1006
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 2: it make, what process does it affect in the brain.

1007
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 2: We might be able to design a chemical craig a

1008
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 2: drug that can offset that, you know, just like we

1009
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 2: do for other mental health issues. Okay, people with clinical

1010
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 2: depression or anxiety, there are drugs that are now available

1011
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 2: and the stigma of those diseases has gone way down.

1012
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:54,919
Speaker 2: Aggression and violence might be very similar, and we might

1013
01:03:54,960 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 2: be able to medicate people so that they can live

1014
01:03:58,120 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 2: a normal, healthy life. But I still I don't think

1015
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 2: I can stress enough how many studies I read in

1016
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 2: both animal models, and of course this makes total sense

1017
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 2: when you talk about humans fixing addressing the environmental issues,

1018
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 2: the poverty, you know, the malnutrition, the lead poisoning, all

1019
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 2: of these things are what is generating criminals. Okay, especially

1020
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:28,680
Speaker 2: people who are predisposed of violence. This is just kind

1021
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 2: of like putting that spark to the to the dynamite.

1022
01:04:33,920 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 2: So I think that would go a tremendously long way

1023
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,240
Speaker 2: and it would make society better for everyone.

1024
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know who? Do you know who Terry

1025
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 1: Crews is? I don't think Terry Cruz. Terry Crews is.

1026
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: Cruise is spelled cr w s. He hosts America's Got Talent.

1027
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 1: He's an ex NFL player, actor, big jacked dude. Anyway,

1028
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: in my spare time I listened to his autobiography. He's

1029
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: really articulate, highly intelligent, gifted athlete I would say, genetically blessed,

1030
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:25,920
Speaker 1: but grew up in a violent, abusive household. Both parents

1031
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 1: were somewhat abusive. The mum very very controlling, dictatorial, and

1032
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, very very extremely religious and controlling, and

1033
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: the father violent and you know, like crap childhood and

1034
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: you know, he was bullied and he's black, so he

1035
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: was there was lots of discrimination and lots of racism.

1036
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: And he grew up in a place called Flint, Michigan,

1037
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: which was, you know, like not a great environment for him.

1038
01:05:56,120 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 1: And yeah, and he basically talks about how well he

1039
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:04,560
Speaker 1: was well on the way to becoming his dad, just

1040
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: despite the fact that all the shit that happened to

1041
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,160
Speaker 1: him he hated, it was horrible. And then fortunately for him,

1042
01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 1: he had a bit of a spiritual or philosophical or

1043
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:21,200
Speaker 1: I don't know whatever emotional awakening where he realized. But

1044
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: he says, like it's every day he kind of works

1045
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 1: against this, this this programming that he you know, because

1046
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: when you grow up, i mean, apart from your genetics,

1047
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: you're also there's this environmental sociological programming. And yeah, it's

1048
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: like that he speaks about how hard it is to

1049
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 1: kind of rise above that. When you that's like becomes

1050
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 1: your default setting, even if it was something that you

1051
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 1: personally hated, you become it almost.

1052
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 2: Well more power to him. And you do read about

1053
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 2: exceptions to the rule, people who do against all arts

1054
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:05,200
Speaker 2: come out of this process. It's enlightening to hear that

1055
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 2: every day is still a struggle, you know, this is

1056
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 2: a constant battle to fight those demons from the past.

1057
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 2: And it's wonderful to see examples. And I think there's

1058
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 2: a there's a tendency amongst people that if one person

1059
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 2: can do it, all the other tens of millions of

1060
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 2: people affected by poverty can do the same. And that's

1061
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 2: where I'm like, come on, come on, one other quick thing,

1062
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 2: and this is this is not to be little anybody's

1063
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 2: success in emerging from those horrible conditions. But I think

1064
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 2: there's been studies on children who come out of orphanages.

1065
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:50,479
Speaker 2: Most of these children who go through the foster home

1066
01:07:50,520 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 2: process have miserable times, and statistically they end up with

1067
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 2: higher probability of being depressed or violent or even suicidal.

1068
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 2: It's horrible conditions that they had. But every now and

1069
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:09,000
Speaker 2: then there's a few children who are resilient to all

1070
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 2: of this. Okay, they come out of it just fine,

1071
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 2: even though they had some horrible experiences, they seem okay.

1072
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 2: And this was genetically studied and it turns out that

1073
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 2: there's a really strong correlation between the resilient children and

1074
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 2: they have a gene that protects their brain from stress.

1075
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 2: It's a remarkable study. The gene is called BDNF and

1076
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 2: they over express this gene and its function is to

1077
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 2: protect the brain from stress. So even resilience, Craig, and

1078
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,800
Speaker 2: this is probably why it's so rare, may have a

1079
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:48,880
Speaker 2: genetic underpinning at least in some of these examples.

1080
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 1: Is that what is that? I feel like I've heard

1081
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:55,320
Speaker 1: that betaf. Is it neurotropic fact of the last two

1082
01:08:55,360 --> 01:08:57,560
Speaker 1: things or something?

1083
01:08:56,560 --> 01:09:01,640
Speaker 2: Brain neurotropic factor or something like that. Yeah, brain development,

1084
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:03,799
Speaker 2: brain development, nor a troop factor?

1085
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Another guy I have on here it

1086
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,280
Speaker 1: has spoken about that's that's so interesting. All right. Last

1087
01:09:09,280 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 1: thing which is not in your wheelhouse, but if one

1088
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 1: of us knows anything, it ain't me, it might be you.

1089
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:19,680
Speaker 1: So there's a you know all about this, but a

1090
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 1: genetic engineering tool which is crisper, which is a thing

1091
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:28,800
Speaker 1: that people are talking about, c R I p R. Well,

1092
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 1: can you explain to me what it is? And and

1093
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 1: is that is that a good thing? A terrifying thing?

1094
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 1: Is it real? Is it going to play any role

1095
01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: moving forward? So what? Yeah?

1096
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:43,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, we could do a whole show on that one, Craig,

1097
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 2: Crisper is amazing it is. I'll do the I'll do

1098
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 2: the short synopsis version. It is basically a gene editing

1099
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:58,360
Speaker 2: system that we stare from bacteria. Okay, bacteria use Crisper

1100
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 2: as an immune system to kill viruses that come in

1101
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:06,200
Speaker 2: and invade bacteria. But we hijacked this system in order

1102
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 2: to edit genes with exquisite specificity, greater than any other

1103
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 2: approach that mankind humankind has ever developed so far. So

1104
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 2: what makes it so great is that it's very specific

1105
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 2: and doesn't appear to have a lot of off target effects.

1106
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 2: So if you want to modify gene x, you can

1107
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 2: do so with Crisper. The limitations of it right now

1108
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:32,680
Speaker 2: are that we can do it in cells that we

1109
01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 2: grow in a laboratory, So it's really hard to say

1110
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:40,240
Speaker 2: we're going to modify your genes, crey. We can't do

1111
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 2: that yet. But we can take some of your white

1112
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 2: blood cells, for example, and change the DNA in those

1113
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 2: white blood cells and then put them back into the body.

1114
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 2: And why would we want to do that? We can

1115
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:56,719
Speaker 2: genetically engineer using Crisper to tell your white blood cells

1116
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:57,799
Speaker 2: to kill your cancer.

1117
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 1: Is that happening? That is?

1118
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:07,160
Speaker 2: There's clinical trials for leukemia utilizing this technology it's called

1119
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 2: cart c A RT, and Crisper is also being used

1120
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 2: to remedy sickle cell disease. So sickle cell disease is

1121
01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 2: a terrible ailment and there was no hope for it.

1122
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:29,759
Speaker 2: But again, we can now take individuals cells using Crisper,

1123
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 2: give them the proper genes so they don't have sickle

1124
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 2: cell anymore, and then basically rid that disease from their germline,

1125
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:45,360
Speaker 2: from their genome. It's remarkable technology and it's only going

1126
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 2: to get more and more utility. You may have heard

1127
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:53,920
Speaker 2: about the infamous case in China where a scientist, I believe,

1128
01:11:53,960 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen give or take crispered babies where out

1129
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 2: there there are two or three babies that have been

1130
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:10,680
Speaker 2: born who have been genetically altered using Crisper technology. And

1131
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:13,679
Speaker 2: the way he altered them he tried to make them

1132
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 2: resistant to the HIV virus. And there's very questionable tactics

1133
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:23,799
Speaker 2: with regard to even what he did scientifically, let alone

1134
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 2: what he did morally, because there's a there's a global

1135
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 2: ban on genetically modifying the germ line of individuals who

1136
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 2: have yet to be born. Yes, but he did prison

1137
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:38,960
Speaker 2: time for that, but I think he is back out

1138
01:12:39,040 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 2: working in the sciences now.

1139
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:44,519
Speaker 1: Oh I wonder what those how those kids are.

1140
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, nobody knows. You know, you're not going to

1141
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 2: get much information out of China, but I don't know

1142
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:56,479
Speaker 2: what the fate of those children are or what happened

1143
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,479
Speaker 2: to them, how they're doing or whatnot. We don't know

1144
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:01,600
Speaker 2: what the long term effects might be. And like I

1145
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 2: said before, what he did scientifically was questionable and there

1146
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 2: was no need to do this. You know, there's no

1147
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,639
Speaker 2: need to make someone resistant to HIV because you can

1148
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 2: live a life that prevents you from getting the virus.

1149
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 2: So it's just a huge mess. But it illustrates how

1150
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 2: easy this stuff is to use and you know, some

1151
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:28,760
Speaker 2: of the magnitude of the changes that it can make.

1152
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:34,280
Speaker 2: So we're using it right now for medical purposes, but

1153
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:37,200
Speaker 2: it probably won't be long before people want to start

1154
01:13:37,320 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 2: using Crisper to improve other genes that they think are

1155
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 2: going to give them more intelligence, or increase their memory,

1156
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 2: or increase their lifespan. All that is coming down the road.

1157
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,120
Speaker 2: Compared to a whole show on this one.

1158
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's fascinating world.

1159
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, humans are GMOs.

1160
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:05,719
Speaker 1: Now maybe they're going to use that technology for weeding

1161
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:09,599
Speaker 1: out aggression and violence, or you know, like we were

1162
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:13,719
Speaker 1: talking about people who are genetically predisposed for violence before,

1163
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:17,160
Speaker 1: maybe they can deal with that before it eventuates.

1164
01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:19,160
Speaker 2: Or maybe they put it in Craig.

1165
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:25,439
Speaker 1: Maybe we build a super a super racist soldiers, super army. Yeah,

1166
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 1: super army full of violent, aggressive, fearless humans that have

1167
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 1: been I bet there's probably North Korea is doing that

1168
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 1: right now. Someone's doing that. Probably China's doing that right

1169
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:40,040
Speaker 1: super soldiers, that's happening.

1170
01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:45,760
Speaker 2: Sure, it's scary to think about, but I don't think

1171
01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 2: the technology is there yet, but I think it's inevitable

1172
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 2: that we will get there. So it's high time we

1173
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:55,720
Speaker 2: start talking about it and start putting like, you know,

1174
01:14:55,800 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 2: intelligent restrictions on what people can and cannot do. But

1175
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 2: the terrifying part of Chris Breer is how easy it

1176
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:03,639
Speaker 2: is to use.

1177
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 1: Wow, now I'm scared. Well, MIT are building dogs that

1178
01:15:10,560 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 1: have have you seen those dogs from MIT? They have

1179
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:17,759
Speaker 1: like weapons on their back now, like machine guns and stuff.

1180
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:23,240
Speaker 2: Oh like these are robot dogs. Yeah, robot dogs. I've

1181
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:23,960
Speaker 2: seen some.

1182
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you get yeah, just google Mit robot dogs.

1183
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:29,280
Speaker 1: They can run and fall over and get back up

1184
01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: and jump up on stuff. It's seventy thousand dollars a

1185
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 1: dog or one hundred thousand dollars a dog. But you

1186
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 1: know it's no German shepherd, is it? Hey? How can

1187
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:39,719
Speaker 1: people find you and follow you? Doc?

1188
01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:45,480
Speaker 2: They can find me at my author website. It is www.

1189
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:47,520
Speaker 2: Author Bill Sullivan dot com.

1190
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for keeping you up. What time is it

1191
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:51,719
Speaker 1: over there?

1192
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 2: Oh it's not even ten o'clock yet, don't worry about it.

1193
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:58,639
Speaker 1: Well, I apologize. We stuffed up here, everybody. We forgot

1194
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 1: the factor in daylight saving things. And by where I

1195
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 1: mean me like I through, like I threw everyone under

1196
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,519
Speaker 1: the bus, and me I stuffed up. We'll say goodbye

1197
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:11,120
Speaker 1: here but for the moment, Bill, thanks again and appreciate you.

1198
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:14,759
Speaker 2: Always a pleasure, Craig, it's great to talk to you.

1199
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:15,639
Speaker 1: Thanks buddy,