Speaker 1: I get a team. It's the bloody Project. That's you,
Speaker 1: it's tiff it's Cairing, it's Harps, it's us. It's a
Speaker 1: fucking Friday. We're sliding in towards home base and I
Speaker 1: couldn't be more excited. Tiffany and Cook is sitting over
Speaker 1: there at typ Central with hair for days. I don't
Speaker 1: really understand how one day you look like a builder's
Speaker 1: laborer with like your hair pulled back, like you're some
Speaker 1: kind of trade and now you look like some kind
Speaker 1: of wild animal from the jungle with hair everywhere. How
Speaker 1: does that happen? I'm a boy, How does that? How
Speaker 1: have you got now a shock of red curly hair?
Speaker 1: Yesterday you look like a bloke called Scott with a toolbag?
Speaker 1: How does that happen? How do girls do that? How
Speaker 1: do women do that? I just rock up every day
Speaker 1: with the same head and the same ten dollar glasses.
Speaker 1: You're like some kind of fucking urban chameleon. I don't
Speaker 1: know who's going to turn up. Explain to me how
Speaker 1: does that happen?
Speaker 2: Well, when I wash it, if I have time, I
Speaker 2: do you know a little little scrunchy scrunchy and let
Speaker 2: it dry properly and see what happens and that that
Speaker 2: happened today because I had some time. So here we are.
Speaker 1: Wow. I feel like Karen is a lot closer to
Speaker 1: the crag end of the scale in terms of hair,
Speaker 1: hair care and giving a fuck about hair. Would you agree, Karen?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: If I get out of the shower, dry, put some
Speaker 4: wax on my hands, and just go rah rah amway
Speaker 4: however it lands, it lands, Yep, don't care.
Speaker 1: We've confirmed through rigorous scientific evaluation and testing with Tiff
Speaker 1: that she's thirty percent dude, Ah, what would you give
Speaker 1: yourself on that? You know, what percentage would you give yourself? Dude?
Speaker 4: Me? Seventy seventy them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's more than me because I'm only sixty,
Speaker 1: So well done.
Speaker 2: She runs a conference called Girls with Hammers, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh that's funny. Yeah. Well, anyway, how are you?
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming back on the You project.
Speaker 1: Rather than me read some something off the internet, give
Speaker 1: my audience who have not met you, can you give
Speaker 1: them a quick snapshot of who you are and what
Speaker 1: you're about before we dive in.
Speaker 4: Oh look, if I give all that stuff, it's too much.
Speaker 4: But let's say I run Girls with Hammers, which is conferences.
Speaker 4: Maybe we'll do it again next year. And I run
Speaker 4: retreats in Cambodia with my partner. I'm a leadership facilitator,
Speaker 4: an author, speaker, podcast host, you know, just all that.
Speaker 4: That's the sort of shit I do. What do I
Speaker 4: care about? Who am I? I bloody want to change
Speaker 4: the world, you know. I want to save the planet.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: I want people to be at their best, and I
Speaker 4: want to inspire people to believe that they're not a
Speaker 4: piece of shit like they've been, like they've led themselves
Speaker 4: to believe and you know, not good enough and all
Speaker 4: that kind of stuff. So that's the stuff I work
Speaker 4: on as hard as our bloody can to make.
Speaker 1: How do you decide with all of those goals and ambitions,
Speaker 1: as beautiful and as magnanimous as they are, how do
Speaker 1: you decide what needs your attention and energy. I'm a
Speaker 1: little bit like you. I'm like a dog with three dicks.
Speaker 1: I get distracted, as does Tiff, by shiny things, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh fuck, there's so much stuff to do.
Speaker 1: How do you decide? Like, how do you prioritize your time, effort,
Speaker 1: energy and skill so that you're not so that. I mean.
Speaker 1: My point is I think a lot of people are
Speaker 1: busy but not effective, you know.
Speaker 4: So how do I keep it effective? Well, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I'm very good at doing it in my head. I
Speaker 4: need to do this today, and I need to do
Speaker 4: that today in this today. But basically what I will
Speaker 4: not do is spend time on things that are not
Speaker 4: making a better world. So if what I'm doing I
Speaker 4: think people are getting something out of it and they're
Speaker 4: becoming better humans, then I'll find time in my diary
Speaker 4: to you know, you know, make my day work. And
Speaker 4: if someone wants me to do something that's not really effective,
Speaker 4: it's just not going in my diary. That's as simple
Speaker 4: as I can make it. I don't know how I
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I'm way what is Well, you're doing a good job,
Speaker 3: and we hear good things, so you must be doing something. Okay,
Speaker 3: What is effective leadership according to you? Not what does
Speaker 3: the book say or the program say? Like, when you
Speaker 3: meet somebody who's a good leader, what are you saying.
Speaker 4: Ah, someone who really makes you feel seen, heard and valued.
Speaker 4: You know, they appreciate you. They they're humble, but not
Speaker 4: humble to a point that they're like putting themselves down.
Speaker 4: You know, they let others shine. They're vulnerable, you know,
Speaker 4: they tell the truth. They build trust because they up
Speaker 4: as themselves and authentic, do you know, and don't try
Speaker 4: to put on a big show and a bullshit kind
Speaker 4: of I'm the boss, you know, look at me, I'm
Speaker 4: so perfect. I have all the answers. Someone who really
Speaker 4: brings their human self into it and really cares about
Speaker 4: the people that are around them and cries to understand
Speaker 4: who is that person as a human? How do I
Speaker 4: connect with them better? Connection and relationships are buddy king.
Speaker 4: When you're a leader, what.
Speaker 1: Are the toughest bits of leadership? I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: going to give you one that I think is tough,
Speaker 1: and then you can speak to that and expand on
Speaker 1: it if you want.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 1: For me, who employed over five hundred people when I
Speaker 1: owned gyms over court of a century, I had multiple gyms,
Speaker 1: lots and lots of staff over time, giving people feedback
Speaker 1: was always fraught with danger, even if you had the
Speaker 1: best of intentions. And when somebody's fucking up, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: they're just fucking up. They're doing something that's done without
Speaker 1: throwing them on to the emotional bus or destroying their confidence.
Speaker 1: How do you how do you as a leader kind
Speaker 1: of factor in their feelings and their psychological and emotional state,
Speaker 1: but also tell them the truth.
Speaker 4: I always think, and this is not there's no one
Speaker 4: answer to this because it depends on the person. It
Speaker 4: depends on the situation. It really does depend on a
Speaker 4: lot of stuff. But I like to start off, we're saying, look,
Speaker 4: this is this is where we need to be. You know,
Speaker 4: these are the things outcomes we need to meet, and
Speaker 4: we're not quite getting there. Do you know? Some things
Speaker 4: are going wrong? What can we do together? How can
Speaker 4: I support you to get back on track? Because we've
Speaker 4: got because we have to achieve them. That's a non negotiable.
Speaker 4: We have to achieve it. So what do we to do?
Speaker 4: How are we going to get there? When I say
Speaker 4: it like that, I'm making it sound like it's a
Speaker 4: two minute conversation. It's not. Like I said, It depends
Speaker 4: on depends on the person, depends on the situation, depends
Speaker 4: on their emotional state. Look, when we communicate with people,
Speaker 4: you know, we always think that that feedback loop, you know,
Speaker 4: So it's kind of I send a message the receiver.
Speaker 4: Here is that. Then they send me a little a
Speaker 4: message back to say, yeah, I've got it. Now we're
Speaker 4: in this little loop of communication. That's that's out a
Speaker 4: bullshit because the communicator has this whole set of things
Speaker 4: that the person sending the message. It's their tone, it's
Speaker 4: their attitude, it's their knowledge, it's there, you know. All
Speaker 4: of that is in a package and that gets sent
Speaker 4: to the receiver, and then the receiver's got this package
Speaker 4: that's ten times bigger because it's like, what's their emotional state,
Speaker 4: what's their mental state, what's their health, what's their experiences,
Speaker 4: what's their background, what's their culture, what are their beliefs,
Speaker 4: what are their triggers, blah blah, and the list goes
Speaker 4: on and on and on and on and so what
Speaker 4: happens is and I always say this, and it's the truth.
Speaker 4: There's the only true communication is the interpretation of the receiver.
Speaker 4: So less you know the person well enough that you're
Speaker 4: giving that that talk to or what you know that
Speaker 4: feedback to, you're not guaranteed for it to land. Right.
Speaker 4: And I'm really big on this. If you're going to
Speaker 4: lead people, your priority is to get to know them,
Speaker 4: to understand who they are. Yes, we've got a task
Speaker 4: to do, Yes we do. But you just if you
Speaker 4: know the people and you work with them according to
Speaker 4: their strength and what they want and what they need
Speaker 4: and all, like I don't mean panda to them, but
Speaker 4: you know, work so that they're at their best. The
Speaker 4: job gets done. The job sort of takes care of itself.
Speaker 4: But if you push, push, push the job and you
Speaker 4: don't know who you're pushing it to, it's ten times
Speaker 4: as hard. Does that answer your question?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Look, I mean that actually insects with
Speaker 1: my research for my PhD, which is all around understanding
Speaker 1: how other people think and how other people see the
Speaker 1: world and how other people are experiencing this moment and
Speaker 1: how other people are experiencing you in that moment. And
Speaker 1: this is you know, that ability to be able to
Speaker 1: in a particular moment in time with a particular one off,
Speaker 1: one of a kind individual, to be able to have
Speaker 1: some insight into there in the moment experience and feeling
Speaker 1: and version of reality. That opens a door for connection
Speaker 1: that people without those skills don't have. You know, It's
Speaker 1: like you might have the best vocabulary and all the
Speaker 1: degrees and all the theoretical knowledge. But if you're in
Speaker 1: a moment with Tiff, and TIFF's feeling a certain way
Speaker 1: that you're not feeling, and she's having an experience that
Speaker 1: you're not having, and she's looking through a window that
Speaker 1: you're not looking through, well it's really in your interest
Speaker 1: to try to have some insight into her experience so
Speaker 1: that you can build that connection. And this all sounds
Speaker 1: good in theory, but yeah, this is and I think
Speaker 1: for people like you, you probably just do that organically
Speaker 1: and spontaneously without thinking it through from from a fucking
Speaker 1: academic point of view, but you just do it in
Speaker 1: the moment.
Speaker 4: Well, I do it from the heart, and I really
Speaker 4: want people to get better at that. You know, leadership
Speaker 4: doesn't come from your head. It comes from your heart.
Speaker 4: Like you can plan with your head, but you need
Speaker 4: from your heart. And some people will disagree with that,
Speaker 4: and that's okay, but it's also in the moment. If
Speaker 4: you don't know what somebody's going through, you've got to
Speaker 4: make them feel seen, hurd and valued, and you've got
Speaker 4: to be kind like you've got to show kindness and
Speaker 4: compassion in any of those situations and start from there
Speaker 4: and then Look, if the person's not coming to the party,
Speaker 4: then you can say, look, we're going to have to
Speaker 4: push on this a little hard act because we've got
Speaker 4: to have an outcome, yes, but starting with kindness and
Speaker 4: starting with understanding them. And you're absolutely right about the perceptions.
Speaker 4: I was just talking to someone about that yesterday. We
Speaker 4: were talking about behaviors, and I said, but when we're
Speaker 4: dealing with people, we're not. Actually the behavior comes second,
Speaker 4: and we've got to think about how they're perceived leaving
Speaker 4: something in the moment, and we've got to deal with
Speaker 4: their perceptions, not not the facts fat first. You know,
Speaker 4: we got to think, well, how did they perceive this?
Speaker 4: Because we can't just throw facts at somebody and tell
Speaker 4: them what's right or wrong if they've perceived it completely different.
Speaker 4: You know, we have to get to the bottom of
Speaker 4: that first. But I'm making it sound easy and it's not,
Speaker 4: because every single human being is a unique mix of
Speaker 4: you know, millions of stuff beneath the surface that you know,
Speaker 4: we can never and we can never know another human
Speaker 4: because we can never we don't even know ourselves. We
Speaker 4: don't even know what's below our own surface, so we
Speaker 4: can't do the best we can if we shaut with
Speaker 4: kindness and compassion, it's a bloody good start.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I mean also knowing that what will
Speaker 1: work for one person will not work for another person.
Speaker 1: You know, even if your attentions are great, even if
Speaker 1: you are leading with kindness and compassion and love and care,
Speaker 1: it's still going to operate in wisdom.
Speaker 4: Absolutely. I just had this conversation with a leader that
Speaker 4: I was coaching. I need done you half an hour ago,
Speaker 4: and we're talking about kindness and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4: And she said, and isn't it funny that some people
Speaker 4: just don't want that? And she said, I did all
Speaker 4: that kind of stuff with this guy. And she said,
Speaker 4: I said, you know, you're really good, like I love
Speaker 4: how you show up and and he said, just get
Speaker 4: to the point. What are you trying to say? Yes,
Speaker 4: she said, I could have saved all that time.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a there's a really interesting concept in psychology
Speaker 1: called the false consensus effect, which basically speaks to the
Speaker 1: fact that most of us think that other people think
Speaker 1: like us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, and so we think.
Speaker 1: That, oh, this makes sense in my head, so it
Speaker 1: will makes sense in Karen's head. And to me, this
Speaker 1: would be nice and inspiring. So I'll say that to
Speaker 1: Karen and it will be nice and inspiring, whereas for
Speaker 1: you it's confusing and judgmental. Now, if I'm thinking I'm
Speaker 1: giving you a positive but your experience of those words
Speaker 1: is a negative, well one that's a problem. And two
Speaker 1: if I don't know on top of that, well that's
Speaker 1: another problem.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: So this operating on the assumption that this person probably
Speaker 1: isn't in my reality or a version of my reality.
Speaker 1: This person doesn't think like me. That's not good or bad,
Speaker 1: better or worse. That's just the situation we're in. And
Speaker 1: then based on what I know about them, how do
Speaker 1: I build rapport, how do I build trust? How do
Speaker 1: I build respect? How do I build connection? What matters
Speaker 1: to them? What's important to them?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: What do they want to get out of this? It's
Speaker 1: what's their version of right now? Because it's not my version.
Speaker 4: Yep, absolutely, I love all of it. Yeah, And it's
Speaker 4: and I think that body language too, there's another big
Speaker 4: there's a whole other section because you can say, I
Speaker 4: turn up with words and and how does kre and
Speaker 4: interpret these words? And what's her reality? But our body
Speaker 4: language is most of our communication, do you know. So
Speaker 4: if we come in opened and open, relaxed and warm,
Speaker 4: instead of coming in with a full body sort of
Speaker 4: intimidation type thing, then we're already we've already built that
Speaker 4: connection by not threatening somebody, you know, or we've already
Speaker 4: at least eliminated the risk of threat. So but again,
Speaker 4: then that when I was talking about the stuff that's
Speaker 4: going on for the receiver, if you've got like I
Speaker 4: was talking about emotional health, mental health, physical health, but
Speaker 4: you've also got syndromes and conditions sitting under that as well,
Speaker 4: Because then you've got you know, autism or ADHD, or
Speaker 4: you've got another syndrome sitting under there. That throws another
Speaker 4: another level of complexity into the situation. And I don't
Speaker 4: think leadership's easy at all, But I do think it's
Speaker 4: easier if if we start just start with accepting people
Speaker 4: for who they are and understanding that we don't know
Speaker 4: everything about them more and what's right for us might
Speaker 4: not be right for them, and just start I don't know,
Speaker 4: I think that's the best place to start from and
Speaker 4: then build something from there. And I always talk to
Speaker 4: people about connection. Now I haven't got time for connection.
Speaker 4: I'm like going to the staff room and make a
Speaker 4: coppa at the same time as them and say, hey,
Speaker 4: it's your morning bean. You know that takes you the
Speaker 4: time it takes to make a coppa and there. But
Speaker 4: what if I get stuck talking and ah shit, you know,
Speaker 4: like this is the problem. You can always say, oh,
Speaker 4: that's fantastic, I'm going to go. Can we catch up
Speaker 4: at lunchtime? You know, well what have you? But this
Speaker 4: connection thing scares people. I don't know why. I think.
Speaker 1: I think one of the realities of corporate Australia and
Speaker 1: probably corporate America and England and Canada and everyone else
Speaker 1: that listens to this show is that some people get
Speaker 1: put in leadership position is because they're intellectually smart or
Speaker 1: they're very skilled at the job or the industry, and
Speaker 1: they know a lot about the industry, they know a
Speaker 1: lot about the mechanics of the business. But they're not
Speaker 1: great with humans, Like they've got low social and emotional intelligence,
Speaker 1: poor situational awareness, they lack empathy, and they may or
Speaker 1: may not be a sociopath.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: And this sounds like, oh that's harsh. No, that's just
Speaker 1: statistically true. I mean, you know, depending on which research,
Speaker 1: three to five percent of the population. Let's say three
Speaker 1: are sociopaths. Well, in a country of twenty five million people,
Speaker 1: three percent is seven hundred and fifty thousand sociopaths. That's
Speaker 1: working on the low end. That's a fucking lot of
Speaker 1: people who don't care about other people, right, And then
Speaker 1: you think a lot of sociopaths are actually really smart
Speaker 1: intellectually and can also be charismatic and charming. Right now,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you know that your boss is a sociopath.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying there are there are lots of people
Speaker 1: in leadership positions who won don't have the innate compassion
Speaker 1: or care, or skills or even capacity sometimes to be
Speaker 1: able to care about people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent. Well, I would call their managers
Speaker 4: more than leaders. And it's not bagging managers. But you know,
Speaker 4: just because you've got a title doesn't make you a leader,
Speaker 4: do you you know, And just because you don't have
Speaker 4: a title doesn't make you not a leader either. But
Speaker 4: I think we confuse management leadership. You know, a good
Speaker 4: leader should be able to manage, a good manager should
Speaker 4: be able to lead, like it should go hand in hand.
Speaker 4: But there are a lot of managers out there who
Speaker 4: are shiit leaders, and they really cause a lot of problems.
Speaker 4: And man, well, I don't know. I do my best
Speaker 4: to try and get people to understand that, but you
Speaker 4: can't change everyone. Wish we could.
Speaker 1: Tell me about girls with hammers? What's the what's the
Speaker 1: intention behind that? Who's it for? What's it about to?
Speaker 4: I started? I started that off. I was looking as
Speaker 4: parked out front of a work where shop, you know,
Speaker 4: flunnies and girls should wear flunnies. And then I said,
Speaker 4: I'm going to start this something called girls and Hammers.
Speaker 4: I'm going to go into schools and I'm going to
Speaker 4: tell girls that they can be anything they want and
Speaker 4: they should stop sexualizing themselves to the boys and all
Speaker 4: that kind of shit. And so I didn't do anything
Speaker 4: about it, because you know, I was trying to protect
Speaker 4: my time and I was talking at a I was
Speaker 4: coaching on a table at a women's International Women's Date
Speaker 4: thing event, and there was this fantastic card on the
Speaker 4: table that said I will launch a Peppers full female
Speaker 4: focused initiative, and I thought yes, and I picked it
Speaker 4: up because all the other cards said I will stand
Speaker 4: up for women, and I will speak out, and I thought, ah, shit,
Speaker 4: you should be doing that anyway, do you? You know
Speaker 4: most are not. I picked this up up on the
Speaker 4: stage in front of three hundred women's they're not going
Speaker 4: to do this, Like yes, I got off the stage
Speaker 4: and the shit, now I've got to do it. This
Speaker 4: is what I always do in life. I shit. Anyway.
Speaker 4: I come home and tell my partner and she said, well,
Speaker 4: we're gonna have to start girls with hammers. And I said, well,
Speaker 4: if if I'm starting at you're coming in with me.
Speaker 4: So then I did. I tried to do the school thing.
Speaker 2: Shit.
Speaker 4: I went out to a couple of schools and sort
Speaker 4: of tried to do workshops and say, you know what,
Speaker 4: don't sexualize yourself and you're better than that. These girls
Speaker 4: are looking at me like this is this fucking nana
Speaker 4: coming and telling us do that sort of shit. It
Speaker 4: really didn't work. It failed, but we decided to have
Speaker 4: a conference anyway and see who would turn up, and
Speaker 4: mostly it was women forty five to sixty five, and
Speaker 4: they just wanted connection. They just wanted to hear stories
Speaker 4: about people who inspired them, but also to go that's
Speaker 4: my story. You know, I'm not alone. Someone else. Yeah,
Speaker 4: So that's it. And we've done six of them, and
Speaker 4: usually every year. This year we had a break because, well,
Speaker 4: you're asking me before, wen, do you know when to stop?
Speaker 4: This year we said, I just can't do it. It's
Speaker 4: one day a year, but it's definitely not one day
Speaker 4: in planning and definitely not one day in building. You know,
Speaker 4: it's a lot of work. So yeah, so we pulled
Speaker 4: back on it this year and we expect to do
Speaker 4: it next year, but we don't know.
Speaker 1: And how do you? How do you manage you? It's
Speaker 1: like you and I probably have a similar job in
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of mental and emotional investment. I'm
Speaker 1: constantly talking to people who are in not very good places,
Speaker 1: and these are not light or easy or comfortable or
Speaker 1: painless conversations. I get the vibe that you do a
Speaker 1: lot of that. I have my own kind of protocol
Speaker 1: as to how I manage me so that I can
Speaker 1: be the best me for them.
Speaker 4: What's what's that look like for you? Well, I've become
Speaker 4: very good at not personalizing anything. I've become very good
Speaker 4: at saying, well, you're responsible for your own destiny, do
Speaker 4: you know? So I don't say that to the person.
Speaker 4: But that's my thoughts about it. You know, I give
Speaker 4: them as much as I can in the time I've gone,
Speaker 4: even when I'm doing in person leadership programs. You know,
Speaker 4: I give, I give. I give two hundred percent of myself,
Speaker 4: you know, And I love and I dead set do
Speaker 4: love every person in that room with all my heart.
Speaker 4: But when I leave, it's me, it's all. It's I
Speaker 4: don't think about it. I do my thing, and I
Speaker 4: do believe that if I've given all the best I can,
Speaker 4: it's now they are the creators of their own world. Yes,
Speaker 4: now they have to do it. So I'm not going
Speaker 4: to drive home or I'm not going to get off
Speaker 4: the lap club and feel like, oh I should have
Speaker 4: done more? Could I do more? How can I save them?
Speaker 4: I'm not a rescue you know, I'm a coach and
Speaker 4: and well, you know the drama triangle. You know one
Speaker 4: hundred percent subscribe to the empowerment dynamic. You know that
Speaker 4: everyone is a creator of their own life, and you
Speaker 4: can you can. I won't help someone who won't help themselves,
Speaker 4: because I think that's a waste of resources and energy.
Speaker 4: And I'm very happy to take people to the what
Speaker 4: do you call them lead a horse, you know, to
Speaker 4: the water, but they don't drink. I'm not investing any
Speaker 4: more energy. So that's about the best I can do.
Speaker 4: But I don't feel exhausted from my job ever.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think for some people the idea of changing
Speaker 1: their life is very different from the practical requirement. What. Oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good theory. That sounds yeah, I would love that.
Speaker 1: Oh here's what you need to do. Oh fuck that,
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, getting in shape, whatever getting in
Speaker 1: shape means. You know, my background is working with bodies
Speaker 1: and teams and athletes and individuals and you know, people
Speaker 1: with addiction. But you know, initially my job is all
Speaker 1: about helping people change their bodies so that it works
Speaker 1: better and functions better and performs better. And there are
Speaker 1: some people who you just talk to them and go,
Speaker 1: here's what we need to do, and they're like, fuck,
Speaker 1: I'm on it, thanks, and they do it, and then
Speaker 1: other people it not. You could give them all the
Speaker 1: knowledge or the inside, all the encouragement, all the support,
Speaker 1: all the resources, and they won't do it, you know.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing is you as a coach, you
Speaker 1: can't make someone ready. Like you said you can lead
Speaker 1: the horse to water. You can't. I say to people,
Speaker 1: I can't have a good attitude for you. I can't
Speaker 1: be resilient for you. I can't get out of bed
Speaker 1: for you. I can't be fucking courageous for you. I
Speaker 1: can just like I'm not the answer, You're the answer,
Speaker 1: Like you are literally the problem and the answer.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: The problem. Not everyone, of course, but for many people,
Speaker 1: the problem is how they think, and the solution is
Speaker 1: changing how they think. Because when you change how you think,
Speaker 1: you change your choices and behaviors.
Speaker 4: Yep, you know.
Speaker 1: It's this integrated process of like, well, yeah, so I'm
Speaker 1: very much with you, like I want to help people
Speaker 1: who want to be helped, and yes, I want to
Speaker 1: encourage and support and love you and have some empathy
Speaker 1: and have some all of that stuff, but also champ
Speaker 1: at the same time. My job is not to cuddle
Speaker 1: you for the next fucking year three years and tell
Speaker 1: you that you're amazing when you being a dickhead.
Speaker 4: Do you know what? Do you know what people say
Speaker 4: about me? I'm one big giant, warm hug that sneakily
Speaker 4: gives you a punch in the heart. So while I'm
Speaker 4: cuddling you'll give you a punch in the heart. They
Speaker 4: fucking do it, you know, But I'll cuddle you at
Speaker 4: the same time.
Speaker 1: I think it's both, right, Yeah, yeah, we need It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we need encouragement and support, but also you need to
Speaker 1: get off the fucking couch though. You need to make
Speaker 1: a decision. Though, you need to get uncomfortable, you need
Speaker 1: to be brave. I know that is hard, and I
Speaker 1: know you've had a shit life, and I know people
Speaker 1: have been nasty to you. I get all of that.
Speaker 1: We're not discounting that, we're not saying that doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: But nonetheless, here we are. It's Friday, It's a new day.
Speaker 1: What are you doing on Friday?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: Like, what are you doing today? What are you doing tomorrow?
Speaker 1: You know? Because I think some people they use their
Speaker 1: past as a reason not to do anything in their present. While,
Speaker 1: without being insensitive, I know a lot of people who've
Speaker 1: got fucking horrendous pasts who are doing amazing things. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm not trying to judge anyone, but
Speaker 1: when people come to me for help, I go, well,
Speaker 1: you came to me so let's yes, let's acknowledge and
Speaker 1: let's be fully aware of what's gone on and what
Speaker 1: hasn't gone on. But that's not now like now is now,
Speaker 1: you know, So that's the.
Speaker 4: I agree. I find the people that really lean in,
Speaker 4: you know, they really lean in the you say, look,
Speaker 4: this is what you need to do. It's going to take,
Speaker 4: it's going to hurt, and they're like, I'll do it,
Speaker 4: and they go and do it. They come ahead, they
Speaker 4: go ahead in leaps and bounds. Do you know, you know,
Speaker 4: they just go bang, bang bang, and the next time
Speaker 4: is easier. They just build this momentum that's insane. But
Speaker 4: you're absolutely right. The ones that say, oh, yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 4: but yeah, nothing moves, do you know? And I say
Speaker 4: to them at the start of the six month program,
Speaker 4: do it now, start now, because by the end of
Speaker 4: the program be easy. But if you'd come to me
Speaker 4: at the end of the program say I should have
Speaker 4: that's on you. That's on you.
Speaker 1: And I used to say to my clients Karen back
Speaker 1: in the day, like what I first started personal training
Speaker 1: when nobody was doing it right, and I started working
Speaker 1: one on one with a lot of people, and invariably
Speaker 1: someone would come to me and tell me that they'd
Speaker 1: fallen off the wagon. I'm like, what does that mean?
Speaker 1: And obviously they mean that they stopped doing whatever it
Speaker 1: is that they were doing. They stopped eating well, they
Speaker 1: started eating shit, you know, they stopped exercising and whatever.
Speaker 1: And I'd say, you know, I'd say, how's your diet?
Speaker 1: And they go, I fell off the wagon. And I say,
Speaker 1: all right, tell me about that. What happened? And they go,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? And I go, well, tell me
Speaker 1: what happened. Oh, I went out and I ate X
Speaker 1: y Z. I'm like, oh, how did that happen? And
Speaker 1: they're like, what do you mean? I go, well, so
Speaker 1: what did you eat? And they tell me at least
Speaker 1: to what? I go, how did it get in your mouth?
Speaker 4: I go?
Speaker 1: Who put it in there? Who chose it? You know,
Speaker 1: you didn't fall off a wagon. You made choices and
Speaker 1: you took actions. I'm not beating you up. I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: let's not talk about metaphoric or pretend wagons. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about real choices and real behaviors and real results. You
Speaker 1: didn't fall off anything. You just made different choices and
Speaker 1: you took different actions, and you just stopped doing what
Speaker 1: you started. And some people could go, oh, that's so brutal.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, what is brutal? That is literally just
Speaker 1: what happened. Yeah, Like if I called you a prick,
Speaker 1: that's brutal. But I'm not doing that. I'm just saying, no,
Speaker 1: you literally just chose to eat shit, that's actually what happened.
Speaker 1: But when you literally just hold people's behavior up to
Speaker 1: them in a mirror, ye, I'd rather call you brutal
Speaker 1: than acknowledge their own behavior, because it's easier to criticize
Speaker 1: me for being brutal than it is to own up
Speaker 1: to shitty behavior. Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 4: I do know we're talking about your mouth, because that's
Speaker 4: who we're talking about, you know, sort of I've got
Speaker 4: this saying and I know it's not totally right, but
Speaker 4: it's a great it's a great concept. Your mouth is
Speaker 4: the most important part of your body because what goes
Speaker 4: in determines your health, what comes out determines your health.
Speaker 4: And I just love saying that because it's so bloody
Speaker 4: true when most mostly generally speaking.
Speaker 1: Well, also what comes out of your mouth, what a
Speaker 1: massive impact that has on the people in your world.
Speaker 4: Well, that's right, so it makes make sure it breaks you.
Speaker 4: You know, does determine your wealth? And your wealth doesn't
Speaker 4: that mean necessarily mean your income. It means your bloody wealth.
Speaker 4: You know, like what are your relationships and that you start? Yeah,
Speaker 4: I always like, I love kindness and sometimes I'm not kind.
Speaker 4: I'm going to admit that sometimes I'm a fucking prick,
Speaker 4: do you know, because I've had a gut full of shit.
Speaker 4: But I think kindness is where we can that's what
Speaker 4: we should do. I know, yeah I sound like a
Speaker 4: little woosp but I love it. I love kindness.
Speaker 1: Well, I think also that you're human, right, you get frustrated.
Speaker 1: I get frustrated. There are times when I'm a prick.
Speaker 1: There are times when I'm super patient, super loving, super kind,
Speaker 1: super thoughtful, and then times when I'm not that. And
Speaker 1: that's not oh you're bad, you're good, you're broken, that's well,
Speaker 1: you're human. But I think the challenge we're not trying
Speaker 1: to be perfect, we're trying to be better, and we're
Speaker 1: trying to acknowledge our own bullshit. And you as a leader,
Speaker 1: and you as a teacher and a coach and a
Speaker 1: mentor and a role model. If you're not fucking up, well,
Speaker 1: then you're just lying because I don't know anyone who
Speaker 1: doesn't fuck up. You know what I'm saying, It's like, so,
Speaker 1: but we.
Speaker 4: Should we should own up too, We should say up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, and when you own up, when you step up
Speaker 1: and own up, people respect you. They do because, you know,
Speaker 1: rather than trying to portray yourself as somebody who's got,
Speaker 1: you know, everything sorted. How do you know when someone
Speaker 1: is genuinely ready to change?
Speaker 4: Well, now, I don't know. I don't know that. I'm
Speaker 4: thinking about a few people, just the last cohorts, you
Speaker 4: know that I've just had. I think they are the
Speaker 4: people that actually they do what you've asked. And I
Speaker 4: don't mean look, I don't tell people what to do.
Speaker 4: I make suggestions about Look, if you want to get
Speaker 4: on top of this, this is this is what I
Speaker 4: suggest you think about that, and then they come back
Speaker 4: to you the next two weeks later and they say
Speaker 4: I did it, and it's made a massive difference. And
Speaker 4: it's the ones who always take that step, you know,
Speaker 4: and do something with bravery. They they they're they're just
Speaker 4: willing to keep going with all these brave steps you know,
Speaker 4: so I can't pick it at first. Someone asked me
Speaker 4: this actually while not that long ago, and asked me,
Speaker 4: how do you know at the start of each program
Speaker 4: who's going to who's going to lean in and who's not.
Speaker 4: And I said, I don't, I don't. Body language does
Speaker 4: tell me some stuff, but it's not until someone takes
Speaker 4: action that I know that they're going to lean in. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen any of the There have been
Speaker 1: a few shows on around the SAS training, you know,
Speaker 1: the Special Forces operators and Navy seals.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: And it's really interesting. I'm obsessed with that stuff. I'm
Speaker 1: obsessed with not with the war and the killing stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with the people putting themselves in these horrible
Speaker 1: fucking training situations to endure days and weeks and in
Speaker 1: some cases months of horror to get through to come
Speaker 1: out the other side to be an elite Special Forces operator. Ye.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because sometimes you see these dudes come in.
Speaker 1: It's not always dudes, it's usually dudes for better or worse,
Speaker 1: but and they're fucking massive and jacked and covered in
Speaker 1: tattoos and and look terrifying, and they're black belts in this,
Speaker 1: and they're trained killers in that, and they drop out
Speaker 1: in the first three days. And you get these dudes
Speaker 1: who look like a fucking librarian. It's like, mate, did
Speaker 1: you did you come to the wrong group. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, who bought Brian? Like what the fuck is
Speaker 1: he doing here? And these are the ones that get through.
Speaker 1: Like quite often the ones that get through, like the
Speaker 1: guys that look like they're six' four and bulletproof and
Speaker 1: just some kind of you, know masters of The universe,
Speaker 1: character nearly all of them drop. Out but the ones
Speaker 1: who look, unimpressive it's because it's just there's something else
Speaker 1: that that makes people. EXCEPTIONAL i think you hit it.
Speaker 4: Before it's the, mind do you, know you, know like
Speaker 4: you can have all the big graun and the bluff
Speaker 4: and all that shit you've, got but if you don't
Speaker 4: have if you're if you're relying on, that you, know
Speaker 4: and you're not relying on your mind or mind or your,
Speaker 4: heart you, know just that sentence as you're just relying
Speaker 4: on this big. Graph you, know that's completely different story
Speaker 4: to someone who is think About brian the librarian probably
Speaker 4: got bullied at school and you, know you, know all
Speaker 4: that sort of. Stuff he's probably he's probably aligned multiple
Speaker 4: really cunning strategies in his, mind you, know to survive
Speaker 4: and to be. Resilient And i've been through worse than,
Speaker 4: this you know. That that Bloody timmy he was an.
Speaker 4: Asshole he sent me on fire with, crackers you, know
Speaker 4: like who was swimming under the bridges and fucking? Hard you,
Speaker 4: know maybe it's mine, stuff you know that Doesn't.
Speaker 1: Back in the day BEFORE i became a very, sophisticated polished,
Speaker 1: academic nudge nudge wink wink, BOGAN i used TO i
Speaker 1: used to help people modify their behavior in hotels Around.
Speaker 1: Melbourne you, KNOW i was kind of, like what are
Speaker 1: those people at the work at reception a? Concierge, NO
Speaker 1: i wasn't. REALLY i was abound to write AND i
Speaker 1: did that for like four. Years and one of my
Speaker 1: boss AS i was, YOUNG i was like nine twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: one he used to say to, me it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: how big their arms are when you punch them in the.
Speaker 1: Face i'm, like That's it's like if somebody cracks you
Speaker 1: in the nose real hard and you've got huge, biceps
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Help AND i had huge biceps AND i
Speaker 1: got head. Butted first NIGHT i ever worked, SECURITY i
Speaker 1: got head butted AND i got my nose. Broken SO
Speaker 1: i probably did. SECURITY i don't know four or five hundred,
Speaker 1: nights maybe six, hundred but night ONE i got head
Speaker 1: butted and my nose, broken AND i was about one
Speaker 1: hundred kilos, real you, know full of muscles and. Shit
Speaker 1: let me tell you those muscles did not help at.
Speaker 4: All that's.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah i'm, Like, oh that fucking hurts a. Lot
Speaker 1: that hurts a.
Speaker 4: Lot, yeah that's free broken. NOSES i can attest to.
Speaker 1: That has the boxer had a broken?
Speaker 4: Nose cook have? NOT i don't know? How, wow how.
Speaker 1: Is us two non? BOXERS i don't. KNOW i don't
Speaker 1: Think karen's a.
Speaker 4: Boxer, well, well then let's talk about two, first and
Speaker 4: Then i'll tell you about a couple of Things i've.
Speaker 4: Got i'm just.
Speaker 2: Lucky it's not through lack of, gets not through not getting,
Speaker 2: hit that's for.
Speaker 1: Sure what are you trying to tell, Us karen that
Speaker 1: you've been in a few scuffles in your.
Speaker 4: Time i've been in, many many scuffles in my. TIME
Speaker 4: i was Thinking tiff was looking at me, like, oh
Speaker 4: you're a. Boxer and you didn't tell me. That no
Speaker 4: talk about an. Amateur lose your fucking head. Boxer you,
Speaker 4: know BECAUSE i played in pubs for years and years and,
Speaker 4: years and from WHEN i was, young fifteen And i'm
Speaker 4: in my. Twenties in, particular fucking assholes would come up
Speaker 4: drunk with their, boat with their pots of, beer and
Speaker 4: they'd be, gone fucking sing, eagle rock your fucking. GEAR
Speaker 4: i won't say the words they.
Speaker 1: Use you, know they're fun and already you've already opened
Speaker 1: the swearing.
Speaker 4: Door so no well to sea, words so we won't.
Speaker 4: Say we won't say. Country so and you, know playing
Speaker 4: eagle like a fucking AND i. Would they would spill
Speaker 4: their beer in my bloody foot pedal AND i would
Speaker 4: fucking lose.
Speaker 1: IT i was.
Speaker 4: Disregulated then there was no note open me doing WHAT i? Do,
Speaker 4: now what do you?
Speaker 1: Mean THEN i.
Speaker 4: Would kick the fucking beer out of the hand right
Speaker 4: and it would fly across the bloody dance, floor across the,
Speaker 4: road and then they would, go you fucking AND i
Speaker 4: would room my guitar off and keep tucking at one
Speaker 4: of the other guys in the bed and punch him
Speaker 4: right in the fucking. Face.
Speaker 1: Wow the guys in the.
Speaker 4: Band say to, me stop fucking. Fighting stop fighting all the.
Speaker 4: Time stop punching. People isn't it ever ever do?
Speaker 1: That?
Speaker 4: Now but oh my, GOD i was out of control
Speaker 4: WHEN i was. Younger you, know lucky he didn't starts with.
Speaker 4: Hammers back, then it would have been a thing girls with. Rage,
Speaker 4: WOW i had, many, many many. Fights, yeah, yeah as.
Speaker 1: Well they would have diagnosed you with about thirty two
Speaker 1: different things, today aggressive, bitch you'd be in therapy eight
Speaker 1: days a. Week i'd probably be locked up. Too was
Speaker 1: now you'd be in the big house making number plates With.
Speaker 4: Jane.
Speaker 1: Yeah fuck hell you just.
Speaker 4: No boxing gloves their.
Speaker 1: Mate you're, Funny you're, Funny you're. All it's always good
Speaker 1: catching up with. You how do people find, You karen
Speaker 1: and connect with you and reach out to you if
Speaker 1: they want.
Speaker 4: To, well they just catch connect with me On LinkedIn
Speaker 4: is the best one and just under my Name Karen.
Speaker 4: Vaughan but also my website Is Karen vaughan dot. Com
Speaker 4: So i'd love to hear from. Anyone give you, up Butter,
Speaker 4: coup we appreciate.
Speaker 1: You will say goodbye affair and to the bloody the
Speaker 1: lion in the corner the Diff that does make sense
Speaker 1: to the. Listeners but she's in the top left corner
Speaker 1: of my screen with that kind of it looks like
Speaker 1: a lion's, mane doesn't, It, Karen it.
Speaker 4: Does, yeah it's, beautiful, Beautiful, tief
Speaker 1: All, right see your team