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Speaker 1: Good to see you again, and I'm glad to see

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Speaker 1: you alive.

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Speaker 2: And well, yes, indeed, man, I am out the other side,

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Speaker 2: as they say, I'm happy to be out the other side.

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Speaker 1: I'm very glad to hear it. And just if you

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Speaker 1: don't mind, I don't know all the backstory, but I

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Speaker 1: know you had surgery, and yeah, are you okay? Is

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Speaker 1: everything all right?

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Speaker 2: I am? I am perfectly fine, and I'm a very

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Speaker 2: very lucky boy. I play soccer with a cardiologist and

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Speaker 2: because I was I'm in my fifties, I went to

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Speaker 2: him and I said, hey me, you know what can

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Speaker 2: I do to get a full check up? I want

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Speaker 2: the full check up, but I just don't want to

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Speaker 2: go and get my bloody cholesterol measured, which is a

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Speaker 2: pretty poor proxy. I want to know what my tickers like.

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Speaker 2: And he's like, yet, no problem, come in when we'll

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Speaker 2: do a whole heap of testing. So he did the

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Speaker 2: you know, the exercise stress test, cardiac MRI, all of

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Speaker 2: that stuff, sat me down, uh, and then was taking

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Speaker 2: me through the results. And when you know, fitness wise,

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Speaker 2: you're great, he says, but we have just found that

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Speaker 2: you have a congenital heart defect. So I was born.

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Speaker 2: I was born with a bicuspid aortic valve rather than

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Speaker 2: try cuspid. So you're for and for the listeners or

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Speaker 2: maybe anybody doesn't know. Your aorta is the be an

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Speaker 2: artery that plumps the blood. So the blood comes out

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Speaker 2: of the left ventricle, it squeezes it and it goes

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Speaker 2: through the orta and through the all of your body.

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Speaker 2: And and there's supposed to be a try leaf, a

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Speaker 2: try cuspid valve. There three leaf thing and it's a

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Speaker 2: one way valve. So the blood goes through and then

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Speaker 2: the valve shuts. I was born with the heart defect

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Speaker 2: of a bicusp but so only two leaves. And what

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Speaker 2: that means is over time it doesn't shut properly right,

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Speaker 2: So you then start to get regurgitation, as in blood

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Speaker 2: leaking back in. And what that does then over time,

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Speaker 2: because there's blood leaking back in and the ventricles filling again,

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Speaker 2: it can stretch your heart chamber. And as the cardiologist

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Speaker 2: said to me, he says, what kind of happens with

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Speaker 2: people who particularly are into their fitness. They first start

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Speaker 2: to notice just a fitness is going a little bit here.

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Speaker 2: I need to work harder, and so you go and

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Speaker 2: you work harder, and that makes the problem worse. Right,

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Speaker 2: The other stuff can happen is that the blood pulls

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Speaker 2: in the bottom and then you can get You can

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Speaker 2: end up with an aneurysm, or your aorta stretches. The

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Speaker 2: man was starting to stretch and it can just burst

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Speaker 2: in in your brown bread. So it was either going

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Speaker 2: to give me heart failure or or kill me. So

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Speaker 2: I'm very lucky and I just found this morning I

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Speaker 2: was reading an article. I'm in very good company. Olympic

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Speaker 2: four hundred meters silver medalist Roger Black revealed he's just

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Speaker 2: had open heart surgery. Same issue, exact same issue. He

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Speaker 2: was born with a by customers, but he knew about

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Speaker 2: it from the age of eleven, so obviously often it's generic.

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Speaker 2: Obviously one of his parents had it. He got checked

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Speaker 2: out at the age of eleven. They knew it. And

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Speaker 2: it's a watching weight thing until it becomes an issue, right,

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Speaker 2: and you didn't.

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Speaker 1: Have any family history or anything.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know any family history at all around it,

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Speaker 2: and so it's not always it can just be a freak.

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Speaker 2: But then I've got to check my kids from up.

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Speaker 2: Both my kids are getting checked as well, and you know,

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Speaker 2: but mine was getting to the point my surgeon say

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Speaker 2: it actually that I had over fifty percent regard sitation

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Speaker 2: once it hits sixty percent of sixty sixty five when

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Speaker 2: you get heart failure. So I'm a lucky, lucky boy.

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Speaker 1: That's absolutely incredible. And I guess a reminder to a

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Speaker 1: lot of people listening who might think, do you have

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Speaker 1: done the cholester I've done the blood test, but actually

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Speaker 1: I've never had a real look under the hood in

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Speaker 1: terms of cardiac risk. That's a huge lesson. And you

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Speaker 1: didn't feel.

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Speaker 2: Anything, No, I didn't feel anything. Looking back, there were

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Speaker 2: probably some signs, and you know, retrospect, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: great to be able to look back on stuff, right.

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Speaker 2: I've noticed just playing this year because particularly I went

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Speaker 2: I played open age this year because I couldn't play

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Speaker 2: with the over thirty fives, and just noticed that my

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Speaker 2: speed was nowhere near like with young guys. And I

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Speaker 2: just thought, it's just because you're old. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I was working with half a heart basically, so that's

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Speaker 2: going to affect stuff like that. And I did actually

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Speaker 2: start to notice. And when you know about these things,

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Speaker 2: you more were November December, and especially January, my exercise

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Speaker 2: capacity was really dropping off quite significantly, and some would

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Speaker 2: say that was because I was in Belfast for two

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Speaker 2: weeks reacquainting myself with Guinness, but the badness was out

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Speaker 2: by that stage. I could definitely feel it in January

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Speaker 2: and my serge and said, yeah, you were now over

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Speaker 2: fifty percent. So like in if I hadn't done anything

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Speaker 2: about it in the next year, I would have been

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Speaker 2: in trouble.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Well, I'm so glad to hear you on the

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Speaker 1: other side of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and look really interesting because I bumped into somebody

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Speaker 2: just walking down the street. I bumped into lady I

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Speaker 2: know he used to be here to hr with I

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Speaker 2: select and I'd done some business with her and we

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Speaker 2: were talking with her husband and he had not not

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Speaker 2: the same thing, but he had ended up having cockages

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Speaker 2: in his arteries and the same thing. It's us freaking blokes.

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Speaker 2: He was noticing just when he was out cycling. Oh,

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Speaker 2: the cold is starting to affect me. It's affected my

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Speaker 2: breathing and stuff like that. But then he said there

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Speaker 2: were other symptoms. He was getting a little bit of

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Speaker 2: chest pain and he just dismissed it. He even got

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Speaker 2: some jaw paying and he sort of just dismissed that,

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Speaker 2: and his doc said, geez, you were pretty close to

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Speaker 2: a big heart attack.

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Speaker 1: Right, So got to listen to the signs, don't you.

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Speaker 1: You do?

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Speaker 2: And so I think for especially for blokes because we

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Speaker 2: get more cardiovascars, but not exclusively women as well. You

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Speaker 2: got to know what those signs and symptoms are, right,

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Speaker 2: and especially if you're noticing your exercise capacity has dropped significantly,

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Speaker 2: you're breathing harder, don't always just write it off on

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Speaker 2: the old age and go and get bloody well checked out.

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Speaker 2: And you've got to push. You got you gotta push, right,

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Speaker 2: So that's the thing. So yeah, but hey, we're on

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Speaker 2: the other side. I'm recovering really well and very happy

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Speaker 2: to be here.

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Speaker 1: And your gratitude levels are high.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, oh yes, very very high. Yeah, I'm extremely

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Speaker 2: grateful for modern science from a surgeon, for all the

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Speaker 2: nurses in the hospital who were freaking awesome and stuff

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Speaker 2: like that. Like, yeah, gratitude levels all are through the

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Speaker 2: I'm normally a person who's big on gratitude, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: through the roof now. But interesting, Tom and I've had

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Speaker 2: this conversation. So I don't want to go too much

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Speaker 2: into it, but I had this conversation with Craig Harburn.

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Speaker 2: We're about to release a podcast. A really interesting thing

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Speaker 2: for me in the lead up was using that whole

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Speaker 2: stoic principle of meditating on your death. And I think

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Speaker 2: a big lesson for everybody is just, you know, put

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Speaker 2: yourself in that scenario, right, imagine that you are that

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Speaker 2: in six months your brown bread something happens or in

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Speaker 2: a month, like what would the impact be? What would

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Speaker 2: the impact be on your family? Have you got your

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Speaker 2: shit sorted out? But also, you know, if that was

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Speaker 2: to happen, what would your big regrets be? Right? If

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Speaker 2: you were taken early and then and then imagine you've

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Speaker 2: got a second chance, and what would you do with that?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Because a lot of it spen a shit little time

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Speaker 2: less on their phone, bringing dooms, grueling, watching shit TV

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Speaker 2: that spend more time with their family, doing hobbies, all

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Speaker 2: of that stuff and why weird until you get that

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Speaker 2: warning shot across the boats.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well you know that it's a powerful question what

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Speaker 1: have you done with your life? And you know, if

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Speaker 1: we look at Bronnie Were's story, the top five regrets

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Speaker 1: of the dying. The number one most common regrets she

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Speaker 1: saw as a palliative carenurse was I wish I'd had

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Speaker 1: the courage to live a life true to myself, not

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Speaker 1: the life others expected of me. I wish I'd let

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Speaker 1: myself be happier. I wish I'd sat in touch with

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Speaker 1: my friends. Nobody said I wish I'd spent more time

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Speaker 1: in mindless online social media, or getting up about someone

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Speaker 1: I worked more in the week, right, yeah, And nobody said, jo,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad I renovated and got the extra bedroom, or

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Speaker 1: I've got the European car in the driveway. Nobody said that.

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Speaker 1: It was all about relationships, doing what matters, not avoiding

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Speaker 1: what's in our heart, like not, you know, having the courage.

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Speaker 1: That's the word that stood out to me, the courage

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Speaker 1: to live a life true to yourself. You know, I

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Speaker 1: see as a psychologist, the most common unhelpful coping strategy

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Speaker 1: across the board is avoidance. We find the excuse to delay,

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Speaker 1: to not take action, to not confront it. And this

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Speaker 1: is as true for people's fears as it is for

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Speaker 1: their goals. And so that question, if you were to

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Speaker 1: die in a month or in six months, what have

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Speaker 1: you done with your life? It brings everything into sharp focus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really really does. And I haven't been through

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Speaker 2: and done that exercise of that meditating on your death.

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Speaker 2: I really encourage everybody to do it right and then

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Speaker 2: to just take stock of your life, right, pretend just

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Speaker 2: pretend you've got a massive second chance, Like what would

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Speaker 2: you do differently? Right? Yeah, So anyway, we're not here

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Speaker 2: to talk about me, so you are. Your clinical psychology

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Speaker 2: has been on before. Some people will have heard you.

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Speaker 2: If you haven't, I'd highly recommend you go back. It

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Speaker 2: was probably a couple of years ago actually that we

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Speaker 2: were on talking about apples for the mind, and it

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Speaker 2: was a great conversation. Hence your back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we talked about the top five myths of

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Speaker 1: mental health and I know some people just really it

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Speaker 1: resonated for them, these idea that there's we're misled by

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Speaker 1: this common knowledge around psychology and mental health. And I

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Speaker 1: loved how much that resonated for people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and just I see that's just rehush. What's a

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Speaker 2: couple of the big myths? Right, Just let's do a

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Speaker 2: quick rehush before we get into today. What would be

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Speaker 2: the big one or two that are the standouts for you.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the big one or two is being mentally healthy

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Speaker 1: means I'm going to feel happy. And conversely, if I

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Speaker 1: feel happy, it means I'm mentally healthy. That's a huge

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Speaker 1: red herring. Equating your mood with your mental health. It

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Speaker 1: leads people down the garden path. They assume that there's

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Speaker 1: something wrong with them when there isn't because they're not

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Speaker 1: feeling twenty four seven joy and good feelings. I've got

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Speaker 1: to tell you, Paul, if I met someone who said

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Speaker 1: they felt good all the time, I think, what disorder

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Speaker 1: do you have? Because it's not normal to be elevated

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Speaker 1: in mood continuously. But we also see people pursuing happy

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Speaker 1: feelings in unhealthy ways. They see that as the holy ground.

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Speaker 1: But your mood or how you feel, is not the

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Speaker 1: same thing as your mental health. It's not the same

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Speaker 1: thing as your will being.

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Speaker 2: And this is critical for people to understand. Isn't it

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Speaker 2: that happiness is just an emotion. It's a fleeting emotion

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Speaker 2: like anger, sadness, that sort of stuff. It's not a

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Speaker 2: state of being that we can be in permanently. And

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Speaker 2: I think we've all been, We've been sold this by

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Speaker 2: marketing people, right them, that we should all be happy. Interesting.

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Speaker 2: I remember looking at research around what parents most want

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Speaker 2: for their children, and across the world there was like

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Speaker 2: thirty different countries and the biggest thing they wanted for

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Speaker 2: their children was to be happy. Apart from India, and

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Speaker 2: they wanted their children to be successful more than happy. Right,

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Speaker 2: that was the one country that bucked the trend out

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Speaker 2: of thirty or forty of them. Yeah, it's just it's

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Speaker 2: bullshit that we can be happy all the time, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: It is bullshit. And I think when parents say I

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Speaker 1: want my child to be happy, what they really mean

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Speaker 1: to say is I want them to have well being. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want them to be well liked and I want

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Speaker 1: them to be successful. That's really what they mean when

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Speaker 1: they say I want them to be happy. But the

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Speaker 1: good news is that and working in the air of

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Speaker 1: preventive psychology, I do a lot of work with parents.

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Speaker 1: We talk about what are the things to keep in

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Speaker 1: mind if you're the parent of young child in order

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Speaker 1: to achieve that. Well, if you want your child to

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Speaker 1: be happy, you want to cultivate well being. Because you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right, we conflate these two things. That one is

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Speaker 1: a temporary mood state. Moods are by definition transient, and

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Speaker 1: that is healthy. We don't they're meant to come and go.

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Speaker 1: That's why I always say emotions are like the weather.

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Speaker 1: They're meant to come and go. And if you want

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Speaker 1: your child to be well liked, then model social skills

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Speaker 1: and coach them on social skills. And if you want

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Speaker 1: them to be successful, build their capability. So you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna have a capable child if they never face challenges,

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Speaker 1: they never have responsibility and they don't have to do

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Speaker 1: things on their own. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look, I want to do a big dig into that.

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Speaker 2: But just while we're on that topic of happiness and that,

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Speaker 2: you know we've been sold as happiness. I think there's

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Speaker 2: another thing that's a big issue right now is that

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Speaker 2: And I don't know where this came from, but now

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Speaker 2: people just a lot of people seem to think that

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Speaker 2: life is about being entertained, right, and so many people

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Speaker 2: spend so much of their free time inside four walls

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Speaker 2: with their head buried in a screen right either scrolling

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Speaker 2: or on Netflix. And it's like, when did entertainment become

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Speaker 2: the prime goal of leisure time?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, And it's a trend that we see not

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Speaker 1: just across individual behaviors, but also in parenting practices and

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Speaker 1: really across the board. It goes hand in hand with

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Speaker 1: the shortening of our attention span, but in particular it's

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Speaker 1: emotional as well. And it's what I call the great

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Speaker 1: mistake because if we focus on short term emotions, what

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Speaker 1: makes me feel happy, what makes me feel calm, what

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Speaker 1: makes me feel comfortable, over what's good for our long

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Speaker 1: term development, our long term wellbeing, or what fits with

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Speaker 1: our values, this is a mistake. So focusing on short

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Speaker 1: term emotions rather than long term development is a mistake.

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Speaker 1: It's a mistake in our lives because it stops us

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Speaker 1: from doing what's meaningful or important in the long term.

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Speaker 1: And it's a mistake from a parenting point of view

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Speaker 1: because it causes parents to intervene unnecessarily in a way

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Speaker 1: that ultimately confers risk upon the child for other problems. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, we see this in anxiety all the time.

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Speaker 1: And I know we started with phones and now in anxiety,

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Speaker 1: but we see this in anxiety because it's really normal

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Speaker 1: to sometimes feel anxious. So if you do something that

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Speaker 1: is new, different, challenging, or has a great deal of

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Speaker 1: responsibility attached to it. How often do you feel perfectly calm?

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Speaker 2: Not very often, unless you're a not kiss.

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Speaker 1: Exactly only in that case would right, So it's normal

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Speaker 1: by definition when you face a challenge, it's normal to

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Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable. But we've somehow pathologized normal nervousness, normal discomfort.

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Speaker 1: You know, we could say colloquially, I feel anxious, Okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean you've got an anxiety disorder. That

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything's wrong. And so by pathologizing it, by

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Speaker 1: reducing our we've lowered our expectations for what we can

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Speaker 1: and should tolerate. And this has vast repercussions. It's like

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Speaker 1: we've lowered the bar across the board for what we

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Speaker 1: should be able to handle. So that has implications for individuals,

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Speaker 1: but on a population level, and we're seeing this play

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Speaker 1: out in real time right now, Paul, is on a

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Speaker 1: population level, it increases vulnerability to anxiety disorders. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: if i'm IF, I'm if as a young person, I'm

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Speaker 1: implicitly or explicitly given the message that I shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: to tolerate the discomfort of a high pressure exam. For example,

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Speaker 1: or I shouldn't have to endure the difficulty of telling

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Speaker 1: my teacher that I didn't do my homework. Then that

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Speaker 1: then magnifies. There's a cumulative effect of this belief set

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Speaker 1: and this lack of habituation. We habituate to things. When

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Speaker 1: we face them, we calm down and we adjust. So

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Speaker 1: if we don't learn to habituate to everyday challenges, everyday difficulties,

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Speaker 1: how in the hell are we going to expect a

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Speaker 1: young person at twenty twenty five, in their first job

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Speaker 1: doing a university degree, who faces the challenges that we

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Speaker 1: know are inevitable. How can we possibly expect them to

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Speaker 1: cope with that difficulty and discomfort if they've never had

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Speaker 1: to face that difficulty and discomfort with the little things,

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Speaker 1: the age appropriate things, when they were younger.

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Speaker 2: Mayor you are singing my song and you're singing it beautifully.

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Speaker 2: I have been increasingly concerned of what I've seen, both

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Speaker 2: from seeing my kids and their friends and seeing messages

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Speaker 2: from schools, but also then seeing the ridiculously increasing medication rates,

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Speaker 2: especially amongst our young people, and the mental health issues.

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Speaker 2: And I have long believed that a huge part of that,

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Speaker 2: In fact, the vast majority of that is that we

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Speaker 2: are coddling our kids, we are wrapping them up in

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Speaker 2: cotton wool. We're making the freaking exact same mistake that

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Speaker 2: happened in the nineteen eighties that came out of America,

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Speaker 2: where it was all about boosting people's self esteem because

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Speaker 2: they saw that people who had hire self esteem created

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Speaker 2: less are made, had committed less crime. So they then thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: if we just boost people self esteem, there'll be better citizens.

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Speaker 2: And it turned into a freaking mess. And I think

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Speaker 2: we're doing exactly the same thing. I mean, I'm a

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Speaker 2: big fan of discomfort tolerance, right, and you sort of

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Speaker 2: alluded to it, are like, we have to learn to

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Speaker 2: tolerate discomfort, both physical and psychological, if we want to

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Speaker 2: prepare ourselves for life. But as you say, we are

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Speaker 2: pathologizing stuff like nervousness and discomfort. And then there's a

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Speaker 2: friggin pill.

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Speaker 1: For it, which is a really slippery slope. It becomes

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Speaker 1: a cycle, and it very easily becomes a dependence. So

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Speaker 1: you can become dependent on avoidance, you can become dependent

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Speaker 1: on a pill, you can become dependent on reassurance. These

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Speaker 1: are all what psychologists would call safety behaviors. They make

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Speaker 1: us feel safe, but they don't actually alter the level

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Speaker 1: of risk or experiencing in the world.

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Speaker 2: And they make it worse though in the long run,

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Speaker 2: don't they both. With all of these avoidance behaviors, it

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Speaker 2: just gets worse and worse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because we miss the bus. Because we need developmental

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Speaker 1: to face those challenges, learn to sit with it, tolerate

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Speaker 1: the discomfort, and habituate. Have the experience of becoming more

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Speaker 1: comfortable in those uncomfortable situations. This is critical. This is

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Speaker 1: the principle that underpins exposure therapy. Yes, yes, right, So

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Speaker 1: you don't take the person. And I've seen this. If

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Speaker 1: you do it half right, you're not doing it right.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen this out of this conversation with a

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Speaker 1: lot of educators in our healthy mind schools is they'll say, well,

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Speaker 1: we want to get this kid to overcome their school

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Speaker 1: refusal and their social anxiety. So I had this conversation

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Speaker 1: with one school and they said, well, we get the

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Speaker 1: kid to come, and the kid's very anxious, and we

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Speaker 1: reward them when they arrive. We tell them they've done

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Speaker 1: a great job. We can tell they're really struggling with it,

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Speaker 1: but we say, well, we just want you to get

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Speaker 1: through the door, and we just want you to start

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Speaker 1: there and then we let them go home. Don't you

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Speaker 1: think we're doing a good job. And I said, look,

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Speaker 1: your heart's clearly in the right place. But if I'm honest, no,

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Speaker 1: you're not doing a good job because what you're doing

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Speaker 1: is right at the peak of this young man's anxiety level,

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Speaker 1: right when it's peaking, you're saying you can go home.

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Speaker 1: So it's conditioning an association of feeling very anxious arriving

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Speaker 1: at school and being at school, and it's conditioning absolute

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Speaker 1: relief as you're getting away from school. And that's the

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Speaker 1: opposite of the learning that we want to occur. We

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Speaker 1: want him to come to school and have the experience

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Speaker 1: of calming down and feeling better at school. Now, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to go to zero. We don't expect someone

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Speaker 1: to be perfectly relaxed. But if you can get that

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Speaker 1: subjective distress down by half from an eight to a four,

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Speaker 1: let's say that's a step forward, and then the next

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Speaker 1: time you do it might be a seven to two

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Speaker 1: three or something. And then eventually the thing that seemed

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Speaker 1: overwhelming actually isn't overwhelming anymore.

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Speaker 2: Just on that school refusal. I mean I'm hearing from

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Speaker 2: I've done some work with different schools and also listening

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Speaker 2: to different people that there's been a huge rise in

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Speaker 2: school refusal. I think I read an article. What do

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Speaker 2: you think is driving it? Is the stuff? Is it

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Speaker 2: the stuff that we just talked about before, that that

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Speaker 2: sensitization because of the coddling of young kids.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's this generational shift to over parenting and what

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Speaker 1: I call the great mistake, the prioritizing short term emotions

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Speaker 1: over long term development. And it was made much worse

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Speaker 1: by the COVID pandemic because if you were a kid

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Speaker 1: who has had a propensity to being socially anxious, a

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Speaker 1: global pandemic is exactly what you wished for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you can tap out, you can tap out.

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Speaker 1: And so if you think about these these developmental tasks

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Speaker 1: that young people have as they grow, it's almost like

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Speaker 1: they opted out of three seasons of your football or whatever.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to be in that condition and they're

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Speaker 1: not going to be on the same trajectory art towards

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Speaker 1: unless we do something to make sure we remediate that.

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Speaker 1: Unless we really do the work of exposure and habituation

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Speaker 1: to overcome those challenges, because the thing is the same

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Speaker 1: principle that a psychologist will use in therapy to overcome

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Speaker 1: an anxiety disorder is precisely the same principle by which

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Speaker 1: someone builds confidence. It is stepping into discomfort, being willing

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Speaker 1: to feel uncomfortable and staying in that situation long enough

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Speaker 1: that you start to habituate and you start to feel

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Speaker 1: more comfortable, and then just doing that repeatedly. So it's

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Speaker 1: actually not a mystery. But this is not widely known

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Speaker 1: and it's not widely applied by parents.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think schools play a huge role in

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Speaker 2: this as well, And I'm keen to explore what you

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Speaker 2: guys do when you go in and run programs with schools,

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Speaker 2: because I'm seeing schools with messaging that is just making

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Speaker 2: this shit worse, right, where it's all of this it's

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Speaker 2: okay not to be okay, and giving them easy op

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Speaker 2: oubts and things like that and talking about it so

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Speaker 2: bloody much right when you talk about things research and

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Speaker 2: not the show. And I'm sure you've seen it that

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Speaker 2: when you are constantly talking to young kids about mental

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Speaker 2: health issues, it starts to become suggestibility. Particularly they're much

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Speaker 2: more suggestible than adults.

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Speaker 1: Right, yes, And this is a huge issue and some schools.

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Speaker 1: I find schools generally trying to do the right thing,

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Speaker 1: but are often not in a good position to be

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Speaker 1: aware of or interpret scientific evidence to understand what that

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Speaker 1: best practice is from a psychological point of view. And

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Speaker 1: so yeah, we see it a whole range of levels

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Speaker 1: of maturity and compas around this. So you know, when

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Speaker 1: we go into a school and we deliver the Healthy

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Speaker 1: Minds program, we don't really talk about psychological disorders at all.

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Speaker 1: We talk about skills. So we teach them skills. It's

432
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: a toolkit for managing yourself, understanding where emotions come from

433
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: while we have them, that emotions are perfectly functional, as

434
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: a reason we have them, how we can manage them well,

435
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: and what causes you to have a healthy mind. Now,

436
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: this is in contrast. I was invited to visit a

437
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: school once somewhere in Australia which I will not name,

438
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: and they said, we'd love you to come and just

439
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: give us have a bit of an overview of our

440
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: pastoral care approach. And they gave me a two of

441
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 1: the school. It's a very very very nice school and

442
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: they said, look, this is one of the things we're

443
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: doing in year nine. We think it's a real hallmark

444
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: of our well being approach is for the year nine,

445
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: we're sitting them down and across a semester we are

446
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: going through the DSM.

447
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 2: No.

448
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: At the time they were and it was we talked

449
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: of this week it's psychosis, next week it's this and this. Yeah, yeah,

450
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: And they said it was a bit of an awkward

451
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: moment because I said, they were very proud of it.

452
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: They said, what do you think And I said, I

453
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: think this is a terrible idea. Yeah, so, oh my god, that.

454
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: Is I said, I wanted to talk about the DSM, right,

455
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: and I wanted to get your of you as a

456
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: clinical psych So I'm finishing off my PhD in psychology,

457
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 2: but just looking at the d s M. So the

458
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 2: d s M five, I think there's now one hundred

459
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: and six and disorders, psychological disorders, not one of which

460
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 2: has a biological trace. Right, So you think about physical diseases, diabetes, blood,

461
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: sugar blood, actually you can measure it right, cardiovascar'sase, cancer,

462
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 2: all of them have distinct biological triuses and to my knowledge,

463
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 2: not one single condition, our issue or whatever we want

464
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 2: to call it in the DSM of the one hundred

465
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 2: and six has got a clear consistent biological treas Is

466
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: that an issue.

467
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether I say that as an issue

468
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: or not. It's I guess it's a challenge in the

469
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: sense of if you want to explain behavior or internal

470
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: phenomena like thoughts and feelings through biology, then yes, it's

471
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: a challenge. That however, for me, doesn't mean just because

472
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: something can't be traced to a biological cause doesn't mean

473
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 1: or signature.

474
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: Not necessarily cause, but signature. Right, so something measurable in

475
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: the breed. I don't know some handways be and mad

476
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 2: on it, but yeah, But.

477
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: I would also challenge the idea that measuring brain activity

478
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: is always explanatory. So you can do an MRI and

479
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily tell us what's really going on. And people,

480
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: if we want to get really deep here, people will say, well,

481
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: surely we are here because of our brain, that brain

482
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: causes consciousness. I would suggest there's evidence that the brain

483
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: inhibits consciousness, and that's another rabbit hole that we can

484
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: go down perhaps another day. So we want to avoid

485
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: we want to be scientific, but we want to avoid

486
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: scientism because if we take a purely materialistic or purely

487
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: biological view of the world, it's somewhat limiting. But I

488
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: think I get where you're coming from. In terms of

489
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: the DSM, we can create categories of phenomenon. We can say, well,

490
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: this is what depression is. It's this checklist of diagnostic criteria.

491
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: We can say this is what anxiety is, and we

492
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: can do that across the board. What this really represents

493
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: is a rarefication error. We raify something when we treat

494
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: it as if it is real and absolute and concrete

495
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: in the world, when really it's just a way of

496
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: thinking about something. So I'll give you an example. We

497
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: have diagnostic criteria for anxiety, depression, and needing disorders, and

498
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: we treat them as if they're separate. Evidence suggests they're

499
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: not really that separate. So as a clinician, absolutely, if

500
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: someone came to me with anxiety, it would be weird

501
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: if they had no symptoms of depression, Or if someone

502
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: appeared with BLIMI and IVOSA and they had no symptoms

503
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: of anxiety, that would be weird and unusual. And this

504
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: comorbidity is normal, Okay. It suggests to us that there

505
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: are shared underlying mechanisms and that rather than being discreet

506
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: separate entities, they overlap. And the big breakthrough here came

507
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: out of Boston University with Professor David Barlow when he

508
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: said there's a thing called transdiagnostic theory. And this, to

509
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: my great good fortune, I became aware of at the

510
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: beginning of my PhD. And it was the thing that

511
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: caused us to have a breakthrough in prevention where other

512
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: prevention programs failed because trans diagnostic theory says, if you

513
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: think of those terms transmitting across and between diagnoses, what

514
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: are the things that operate across and between multiple diagnoses,

515
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: because they're going to be the clue to broadly and

516
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 1: powerfully impacting mental health. You either look for trans diagnostic

517
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: risk factors, So what are the risk factors that operate

518
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: across anxiety, depression, and eating disorders? What are the trans

519
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 1: diagnostic protective factors and we've found them, And what are

520
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: the transdiagnostic skills? So what are the broad skills that

521
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: help someone to have a healthy emotional life or in

522
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: other words, how to have a healthy mind. And this

523
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: this was the thinking that went into our Healthy Minds program.

524
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: In a multi site controlled trial where We proved that

525
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: you can prevent the onset of symptoms of anxiety and depression,

526
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: and you can do it without talking about psychological disorders.

527
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: So the risk factor that we found was unhelpful perfectionism, right,

528
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: it operates across all of those pathologies. The protective factor,

529
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: and I'm not suggesting there's only one of these, but

530
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: the protective factor was self compassion interesting and this broad

531
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: toolkit of how the understand and manage your emotions, and

532
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: that was what gave us the breakthrough. So the DSM

533
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: can say, well, this is what depression is, but it's

534
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: just a way of thinking about depression. It's not actually

535
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: depression in the real world. We've got to think about

536
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: it much more broadly than that.

537
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Is it to you? Just one more question on a DSM,

538
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: and then I letic goal just because I've got a

539
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: clinical psychologist in front of me. Do you think it's

540
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 2: problematic that the question that they will use for a

541
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: diagnosis appear to me to be leading questions. You look

542
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: at the questions around anxiety, around depression, K ten, whatever

543
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: one you're using, they appear to me to be leading questions,

544
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: and particularly when put to a teenager, there can be

545
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: a large amount of suggestibility, and if a teenager is

546
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: wanting extra time on an exam answering a few questions

547
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: in a certain way, we'll get that. And there's now

548
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: a rash of you sure you're aware of it, parents

549
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 2: actually pushing doctors to get a diagnosis so that there

550
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: are teenagers get extra time. So I know there's a

551
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: couple of questions and comments rolled into that, So ticket

552
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: however you want, Well.

553
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: When parents want to get extra time, I'll give the

554
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: kid an easy ride. They're making the great mistake. They're

555
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: prioritizing short term emotions of a long term learning and development.

556
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be better for a child's long term development

557
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: for them to learn to handle high pressure situations and

558
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: to have the experience of those high pressure situations in

559
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 1: an age appropriate supported way, which is what school is. Right,

560
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: it's highly scaffolded. We don't want to we don't want

561
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: to mitigate these challenges for our kids. And this has

562
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: completely changed the way I view my own parenting, because yes,

563
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: I have, just like any other parent, a natural empathy

564
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: for my son. If he comes home from primary school

565
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: and he's upset because something happened with a friend, I

566
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: naturally feel empathy for that, and I want to support him,

567
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: of course I do. But there's a part of me

568
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: that says, I'm grateful that you had that experience because

569
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: you got to live through a day of feeling lonely

570
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: or left out. You came home to a loving family

571
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: and you're going to learn that you can get up

572
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: tomorrow and get on with it. So my concern is

573
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: that where parents just see distressing their child and they think, oh,

574
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: that's bad, but I want.

575
00:34:59,200 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: To stop it.

576
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: Let's instead ask what did they learn? Yeah, so you know,

577
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: this might of all the dads you could have in

578
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: the world. My son perhaps drew the short straw because

579
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: when he was in reception, and it was his reception

580
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 1: class was doing a thing in front of the whole school.

581
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: They do it once a year at their assembly. And

582
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: he said to me it was bathtime, and he said

583
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: to me a couple of days before, he said, Dad,

584
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to be crook on Friday. He didn't do

585
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: a very good job of masking his intent. Now Friday

586
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: came around and this was the day of the assembly.

587
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: I said, no, you won't mate, You'll be fine. I

588
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: just I dropped it. But Friday, I was out of

589
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: the house because I was off doing a speaking thing,

590
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: and my wife rang me. It was about quarter to

591
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: nine and she ranged me and she said, I haven't

592
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: seen him like tantrum like this since he was a toddler.

593
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 1: And he's refusing to get dressed. He's got every malady

594
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: under the sun. He's very distressed. He's crying, he's screaming,

595
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 1: he's holding onto the door frames. And so I said

596
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: to him, sorry, I'm not there to help you deal

597
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: with this, and I was secretly thinking, I'm really glad

598
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 1: I'm not there to have to do with it. I

599
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: said to her, you know what you've got to do,

600
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: don't you, And she said, I've got to get him

601
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,840
Speaker 1: to school, and so she handed him over to the

602
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: reception teacher, tears streaming down his face. They're really difficult

603
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: moments for parents. I'm not trying to minimize this. But

604
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: that afternoon been there, absolutely, We've all been there. And

605
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 1: that afternoon I was out doing a workshop somewhere else

606
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: and my phone buzzed and it was a text message

607
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: with a video clip of him on the stage saying

608
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: his lines in front of the microphone. And when I

609
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: got home, that night he said, Dad, I did it,

610
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: and he was beaming. Now, if we had gone for

611
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: the short term emotions, said, well, we just got to

612
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: keep him calm. This is overwhelming, it's too much, it's

613
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: too hard. We would have denied him that learning opportunity.

614
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: And the next year when that came around, he was

615
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: still nervous, but not so much. And the next year

616
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: he almost enjoyed it. And it's the cumulative effect of

617
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: these little folks in the road that make a very

618
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 1: big difference. Yeah, so I don't know if that's answer

619
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: to your question, Paul, but.

620
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, look, look it certainly has the Actually, interestingly,

621
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:20,479
Speaker 2: my daughter was going through year twelve doing exams and

622
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: one of her friends, you know, on the day of

623
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: exam was like super nervous and said to Kia, are

624
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: you not nervous? And Kira said, why would I be nervous?

625
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: And nobody's trying to kick me in the head because

626
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: she had competed in karate for years, right and done that.

627
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: And actually she actually said to us and to me

628
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: and Carly, I'm glad that you guys pushed me in

629
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: karate and made me do all of that uncomfortable stuff.

630
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: Because I'm now seeing the benefits. Right, that's from an

631
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 2: eighteen year old, which is pretty cool.

632
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: Brilliant that is that is really cool. And I lived

633
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 1: at myself as a as a gojuru expose because yeah, yeah,

634
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: and just you know, doing a university exam or anything

635
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: that comes up, I think, well, I've stood in a

636
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: ring with blood on my gee facing a six foot

637
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: three opponent and had to keep going. That's obviously in

638
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: a tournament that you know that it changes your frame

639
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: for what you can handle. And we want our kids

640
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: to build an expectation of themselves that they can handle

641
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: these things when they come up.

642
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the major parenting tips, right,

643
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 2: And it's not new this advice. Epictetus two thousand years

644
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: ago said we must all undergo a hard winter training

645
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 2: and not enter into lately that for which we have

646
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: not prepared, and he was talking about life, right, And

647
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: I think it's but I think there's a fundamental driver

648
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 2: of this is that we seem to have an expectation

649
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 2: today that life should be easy and that stress is

650
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 2: bad and that we shouldn't feel discomfort and stress. But

651
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: I think if we flip it, and we are to

652
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 2: just teach kids life is hard. You'd better be prepared.

653
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 2: You need to train right, and you and that whole

654
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 2: discomfort tolerance and that, and yes, it's got to be

655
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: a principle from exercise training progressive overload, where you're just

656
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 2: slightly extending that person, right, and if you go too

657
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 2: far then you've got to bring it back and sit

658
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,799
Speaker 2: down and learn the lessons and stuff like that. Right.

659
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 2: I remember just on this another story when I was

660
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 2: doing helicopter training, and we do progressive overload in the

661
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 2: helicopter training, right, you do a simulator and you know,

662
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: the the instructor, we're throwing a few curlyes and then

663
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 2: you go and you do the thing in the aarth

664
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: progressive overload. But when we were going through there was

665
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 2: shitty weather and we lost a lot of training and

666
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: we ended up having to one night. They said, look,

667
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: we're just going to have to go out here. And

668
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 2: it was a it's called the Thirsty War used to

669
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: be every Thursday off Plymouth, NATO would run war games,

670
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 2: and that was supposed to be our final flight, but

671
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: we were only on flight two, and because we lost

672
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: someone's time, they said, look, guys, you're going to have

673
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: to go out here and do this. I remember we

674
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 2: took off me and this other guy, Simon, in different helicopters,

675
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 2: and I went up and then you come down and

676
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 2: it's pitch black. You got to turn your radar on

677
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: and you've got two radios running, and it was insane,

678
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 2: and the pilots didn't I had contacts all over my radar,

679
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: hadn't a clue what was what got This is the

680
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 2: first time I had a complete mental overload and a

681
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: massive brillan freeze and the instructor had to get me

682
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: out of the seat and I'm sitting there. He took over,

683
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: and I'm just sitting there, going, oh, I've so fucked

684
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 2: that up. And then came back and the other guy, Simon,

685
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: came in and he was shell shocked as well, and

686
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: the instructor satistyan and went, guys, that his mistake. We

687
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: shouldn't have taken you out there because it was particularly busy,

688
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: but it just showed you that massive overload for us.

689
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 2: And then four weeks later and we ended up in

690
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 2: a thirsty war scenario and we were fine because we

691
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: then had the proper progressive overload, so I think, but

692
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: that's the critical thing, isn't it. The steps have to

693
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: be progressive. We've got to be just outside of our

694
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 2: comfort zone. Yes, we've got to recalibrate, take it all

695
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: on board, and then go again. Right.

696
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this, So the psychological equivalent of progressive overload

697
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 1: is graded exposure. Yeah and so yeah, and so it's

698
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: precisely the same thing. You have a hierarchy or a

699
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: set of steps on a ladder. The goal behavior at

700
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: the top is too hard right now, But what are

701
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: the successive steps that approximate that goal behavior that I

702
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: need to get to? And you start with the one

703
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: that's just out of your comfort zone. But you don't

704
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: just do it once. You do it repeatedly, and when

705
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: that becomes easy, then you go to the next step.

706
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: And so with parents, I say, well, clinically we'd say

707
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,719
Speaker 1: graded exposure. It's part of therapy. But in parenting, if

708
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: you want to build confidence in your child, you do

709
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: preemptive exposure. So what is the appropriate level of challenge

710
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: that my child needs in order to build or consolidate

711
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,880
Speaker 1: this capability? And we can engineer challenges for our kids.

712
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: My son wants something from a shop us. This is funny.

713
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: Last year, were we went into State just for a

714
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: weekend and my son he wanted to order something from

715
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: the room service in the hotel and I said, sure

716
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: you can, but just you give them a ring. He

717
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: was seven, and I said, he said, what do you

718
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: want me to pick up the phone and ring? I said, yeah,

719
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: I want you to ring them. You want your check

720
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: and nuthers, Just ring them, say your name, say the

721
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: room and you'd like it. And he said, Dad, I

722
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 1: feel really nervous. My heart's I said, that's okay, there's

723
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: no problem. Just give it a go. And he rang

724
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: and he ordered his chicken nuggets and he got them.

725
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 1: And so you know, it's just about finding these little

726
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: opportunities to build that capability. And they don't seem like

727
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: much in the moment, but the cumulative effects is what

728
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 1: really builds our capability.

729
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that reminds me of the whole challenge versus

730
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: threat response. And you know, let we take a situation,

731
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what the situation, which could even have been

732
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:42,959
Speaker 2: that one. When people have a threat response and they're

733
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: thinking about, oh, this is bad, bad, bad, bad bad,

734
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 2: you know I can't do this. It activelyates cortisol, and

735
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 2: cortisol has a half life of more than an r.

736
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: So when our leader, you're still having stress hormones run

737
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: through the body. Whereas a challenge response active it's a

738
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 2: fighter flight mechanisms. It's adrenaline nor adrenalin, and they have

739
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 2: a half life of a minute or less. But the

740
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: key thing in challenge versus threat is people need to

741
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: feel that they have the resources to be able to

742
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 2: achieve it, right. So it brings us back to it's

743
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: got to be a step that they feel that they

744
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: can just make and then to your point, doing it

745
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: again and again and again gives you the confidence that

746
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 2: I can I do it and maybe now I can

747
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 2: take the next step. Right. But that's pretty key, isn't it.

748
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: So we can't just throw them into the deep end

749
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 2: and let them sink or swim. It's got to be created, right.

750
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: And that's where for every parent and for every coach,

751
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: for every teacher, it's the knowledge of the young child

752
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 1: in your care, that young person. You have a sense of, Okay,

753
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: where are they at on the ladder? Where is that

754
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: boundary for them? And we want to yeah, just tailor

755
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 1: it for each individual. And of course, child developments not linear,

756
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes we have great stride. Sometimes it feels

757
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: like at plateaus, we've got to be aware of that,

758
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: and if it is too much, we just go a

759
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 1: little bit down the ladder and do that repeatedly and

760
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: build that and then step up. So but it's I

761
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 1: think the principle is this is a systematic way with

762
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: which we can inoculate kids against anxiety. We can we

763
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 1: can build their confidence and capability, and we greatly reduce

764
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: their susceptibility to anxiety. And the sporting field does that.

765
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: Sport's great. You got to, you got to pass. Your

766
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: heart's racing. You're sweating, you've got to. You're losing, but

767
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: you've got to keep trying. It's a microcosm of life.

768
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: And so getting kids into school sport is great too.

769
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 2: I think I think it's absolutely critical. In fact that

770
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,799
Speaker 2: my list is probably hope. He said this before, But

771
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 2: when our kids were young, we sat them down and said,

772
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 2: you need to do a team sport and a martial

773
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: art and we will help you and find the ones

774
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: that you like. But that's the house rules, and you

775
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: can stop when you want, but you need to find

776
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 2: somewhere else to live. But it's been so good for

777
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: both of our kids. Both of them independently, the martial

778
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 2: arts for all of that discipline and particularly competing and

779
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 2: you know what it's like, you know, the managing fear,

780
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: managing anxiety, but the team sport in terms of interacting

781
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 2: with other people and and being part of a team

782
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: and getting on with people that you don't particularly like.

783
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 2: I think they're really critical. But I wanted to come

784
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: back to what you said about those manageable steps and

785
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 2: just for the parents who are out there are and

786
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: then closing the loop and and a debrief and like

787
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: should they parent be when they've done it gone, hey,

788
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of you you achieve that, and and

789
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 2: bah and give them that positive reinforcement or what schewed?

790
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 2: Is there a a an optimal and bit of feedback

791
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 2: that we should give them when they both succeed and

792
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 2: when they feel so.

793
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 1: I've got a few things to say on that. One is,

794
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: I think reinforcement is fine and good, but you're reinforcing.

795
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: The effort, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes.

796
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: The second thing is sometimes there's a lot of value

797
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: in just treating things as business as usual because kids,

798
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: I've become aware that as parents today we make so

799
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: many evaluative statements about our kids. You did great, you

800
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: did a good job here. You know, there's so much valuation.

801
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 1: I remember in my youth. I don't recall always being

802
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 1: told you did a great job, no matter what you did,

803
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: or there's just there seems to be much more evaluation

804
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 1: these days. And I don't think that's healthy that we're

805
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: constantly getting this sense of what did I do? Good

806
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: or bad? Because ultimately what really comes from it is

807
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: what did you learn? That's really the benefit.

808
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 2: And does that evaluation, suchuration create an expectation that they're

809
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 2: going to be praised.

810
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 1: Yes, praised and evaluated, and neither of those things is

811
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: really that healthy. I don't think we need that expectation.

812
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: The other thing is sometimes people assume that after they

813
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: go through some sort of exposure, so they did the

814
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: talk at assembly, or they face their fear, they often

815
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,799
Speaker 1: assume that they're going to feel really good. But that's

816
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: not always the case. Sometimes people feel strung out, they

817
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: feel exhausted. So it's not about how do you feel,

818
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 1: it's about did you do it? Yah?

819
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 2: Nice? I like it? I like it a lot. Yeah,

820
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: that's that's no talk about. So we've talked a lot

821
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 2: about kids here, let's talk about the corporate space and

822
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,919
Speaker 2: what have you noticed in the corporate well being landscape

823
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: since we spoke? Is there are similar things going on

824
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: in the corporate world as there are in schools in

825
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 2: terms of that sensitization to mental health stuff or what

826
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 2: else a you're noticing.

827
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: Possibly there is a little I'm noticing that in the

828
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: corporate space, there's a lot of you know, there's a

829
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: lot of challenges around getting people together, particularly when you're

830
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: talking about training and things like that, just just time

831
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: and overall it's really a fight for people's attention at

832
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 1: the end of the day. That we're seeing that across

833
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: the board for sure. So the rise of digital tech

834
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 1: knowlogy and how you use digital technology in a corporate

835
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 1: well being space is one of the key issues of

836
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: the day, I reckon.

837
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 2: So what have you So let's talk about digital stuff.

838
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:16,840
Speaker 2: So we are living in this increasingly digitized world which

839
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,919
Speaker 2: has lots and lots and lots of problems, but there's

840
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 2: also some potential solutions. So how does well being fit?

841
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 2: I know you're making some strides in this place, so

842
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 2: we what's your opinion on how well being fits into

843
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: the digitized world. You know, in terms of what are

844
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 2: the negatives and what are the opportunities.

845
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: The negatives are doing it poorly because you know, there

846
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: seems to be this assumption out there that if you

847
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: just take something, digitize it, add points, badges and a leaderboard,

848
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: that you're going to solve all your problems. And that's

849
00:50:55,840 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: not true. So we've been through through this learning ourselves.

850
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: So quite a long while ago, we would develop we

851
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: would deliver our workshop, which we know people on average love.

852
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: It's called Seven Secrets to a Healthy Mind. And people

853
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 1: tend to love this workshop. They get a lot out

854
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 1: of it. But we wanted to move the needle behaviorally,

855
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 1: so we devised this thirty day well being Challenged where

856
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: we would just give people one thing to do each

857
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: day after the workshop. Now, people loved the idea, but

858
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: we noticed over after about a couple of weeks, engagement

859
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: just went over a cliff. It just plants.

860
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,840
Speaker 2: I to see the thing with my app right, lots

861
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 2: of enthusiasm has start.

862
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: And then room, it just drops off.

863
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: Right.

864
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so we really my business partner Nicolie and I,

865
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: we we spent a lot of time thinking about this

866
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: and talking about it. We thought there's got to be

867
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 1: a magic formula. We've got to find a way to

868
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 1: really engage people properly and move the needle. And you know,

869
00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: I've spent ten years formally studying psychology, many more years

870
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 1: practicing it, and I thought I understood bits and pieces

871
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: of human motivation pretty well. But I did eventually come

872
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: across what I think is a bit of a magic formula,

873
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: and it was a more concise conceptualization of human motivation

874
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: than anything mainstream psychology taught me. And it's something called

875
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 1: the Octlysis framework. Was otalisis so its eight core motivational drives,

876
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: and it was developed by this gamer, a Taiwanese American

877
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: called Ukai Chow. I had the pleasure of learning a

878
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 1: bit from Yukaichow a few years ago before we developed

879
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: our mind Fire app. And he was a gamer, and

880
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: he spent a couple of years, as the story goes,

881
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: playing this game and putting all his time and energy

882
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 1: into this game. And one day he stopped and he

883
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: had this epiphany. He thought, oh shit, I've got nothing

884
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: in the real world to show for all of this effort.

885
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: I've just expended over two years playing this game. And

886
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: he thought, if only I had applied that level of

887
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,399
Speaker 1: engagement and energy into my study, or my career or

888
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 1: some other in my life. And so it was just

889
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 1: like this lightning bolt, and he committed himself then and

890
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 1: there to analyzing the mechanics of game experiences to apply

891
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 1: them in non game settings.

892
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 2: Nice because the gearmers have got it kneeled right in

893
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 2: terms of engagement and all their strategies they use, they've

894
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 2: just got it kneeled they do.

895
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: And so when he came up with and he's widely

896
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: recognized as the world's leading gamification expert, and he's a

897
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: proponent of what he calls human focused design. And this

898
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: is a really profound thing because he says most experiences

899
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,919
Speaker 1: are function focused and you see this in the digital world.

900
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,320
Speaker 1: Does your app do x y z?

901
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:52,919
Speaker 2: Right?

902
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 1: And this is how most tech people think as well.

903
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: But he says, you don't want to think about that.

904
00:53:57,080 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: Don't think about does it do x y z? Think

905
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: about why would someone do xyz? And how do they

906
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 1: feel as they're doing it. This is what human focused

907
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: design is and it revolutionizes the way you start to

908
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: see digital experiences. We've all had the experience of doing

909
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: something and just frustrates the hell out of you because

910
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 1: it's not easy to use. And Uki Chow would say, well,

911
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: people don't want to use smart products, they want to

912
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: feel smart when they're using products, and this is the

913
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 1: essence of it. So we used the Octallysis design process

914
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: to build our new corporate well being app, mind Fire,

915
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: And I'll give you a really quick overview of the

916
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:38,919
Speaker 1: eight core drives if.

917
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 2: You like Paul, Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah.

918
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: So epic meaning and calling, feeling like you're doing something

919
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: that's above and beyond yourself. So one of the things

920
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 1: mind Fire does is it raises money to help cure

921
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 1: childhood cancer. Nice, that's a motivator.

922
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, something bigger than Yeah, I get it. Absolutely.

923
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: Development and accomplishment. Feeling like you're progressing. So anytime you

924
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 1: see a progress bar as you're feeling out a form,

925
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 1: that's core drive two. You feel like you're progressing and accomplishing.

926
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 1: Empowerment of creativity and feedback that's the third core drive.

927
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 1: So if you ever have to strategize or answer a

928
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 1: question or use your own choices, that's core drive three.

929
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,359
Speaker 1: So we have quiz questions in our app. That's activating it.

930
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: Ownership and possession so this drive to collect and accumulate

931
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: and organize. So yeah, so if you did get points

932
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: or your team's doing well, it's not just about this

933
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: feeling of progression, it's also yours. It becomes an ownership thing,

934
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 1: social influence and relatedness core drive five. Now this is huge.

935
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: So what we built into mind Fire is not just

936
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 1: that it gives you well being missions. It's not just

937
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: that as you do your missions you raise money for

938
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: childhood cancer research. It's that you have to work together

939
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: with your team of between five night of your colleagues

940
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: in order to unlock the next day's mission, and you're

941
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: depending on each other. I call this benevolent conformity pressure. Yes,

942
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: it's a healthy peer pressure. So you can see if

943
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm halfway through the day, I can see on the

944
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 1: app that Paul hasn't opened his mind Fire mission for today,

945
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,439
Speaker 1: and I can send you a nudge saying Paul, don't

946
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: forget yea and we want to One person on any

947
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: given day is the torchholder, and if they don't complete

948
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: their mission that day, it breaks the streak which fuels

949
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 1: the donations to childhood cans.

950
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 2: Now I spent like the old streaks thing with Snapchat, right.

951
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly. So the fact that it's so visible

952
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: and we're depending on each other and you can see

953
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 1: what your teammates and colleagues are doing. And to prove

954
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 1: that you've completed your task for the day, you have

955
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,919
Speaker 1: to upload what we call a testimony, So it's either

956
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: a short selfie video responding to a prompt or a

957
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 1: short written answer and it comes up in a feed.

958
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: So you're learning about each other. You're learning about their

959
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,879
Speaker 1: responses to a psychological concept, or their values, or what

960
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,840
Speaker 1: they did for exercise that day. Core Drive six is

961
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:15,399
Speaker 1: scarcity in impatience, So it's this wanting to get something

962
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 1: we can't have or we can't see, or like a

963
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: countdown timer so you've got to get something done by

964
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: set time. So it's a black hat motivation. It feels uncomfortable.

965
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: Unpredictability and curiosity. You don't know until you get up

966
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: in the morning and you click the mission slide. You

967
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: don't know what your task is going to be for

968
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 1: that day.

969
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 2: And that is really interesting, that unpredictability.

970
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: And we know that.

971
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 2: Small rewards that are not expected release more dopamine than

972
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: big rewards that are expected. Right, it's that prediction error

973
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 2: in the Brian Yeah.

974
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: So it's the easter egg phenomenon. I've just found something right, Yes,

975
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: And so if you randomly wake up and you've been

976
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: given a power up something that you can use to

977
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: strategize within the mind Fired teams experience, that's an example

978
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: of that unpredictable easter egg phenomenon. And the eighth one

979
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 1: is lost in avoidance. We have a drive to avoid

980
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: what's undesirable. So if you lose the streak, you have

981
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: to take a dollar out of your donation's chest to

982
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: buy a key to unlock the next day's mission. So

983
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 1: we want to avoid it's that fear of loss, right,

984
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: So you know, this was a great experience. We used Octalysis,

985
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: we worked we actually worked with the Octalysis group a

986
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: bit to help refine in the design and all the

987
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: technical aspects of mind Fire. But we're in the final

988
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: phases of testing right now, ironing out the bugs. It's

989
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: been four and a half years of development and we're

990
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: very close to unleashing it on the world.

991
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 2: That's very cool, very cool. Well, when you've unleased it

992
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 2: and certainly let us know and we can push it

993
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 2: out to all the listeners because there's there's plenty of

994
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 2: corporates and that are right. So what's tell me this

995
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 2: the last question.

996
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 3: What's the big thing that you're concerned about today from

997
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 3: a psychological perspective, and what are you excited about?

998
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: My big concern is that we have this good knowledge

999
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 1: about how to reverse the stats around mental ill health.

1000
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: We now have evidence for preventing the onset of anxiety

1001
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: and depression. It's just not out there enough. And we've

1002
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 1: lobbied the government at the highest levels. We've you know,

1003
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 1: I just feel like it's a drop in the ocean

1004
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 1: compared to what we need to be doing to really

1005
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: turn the tide. But the good news is we have

1006
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: the knowledge to do it. What excites me is all

1007
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: of the unanswered questions that are out there that we

1008
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:58,800
Speaker 1: have the potential to figure out and improve our human experience.

1009
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: I'm just about to publish a study into the treatment

1010
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: of grief and we've This is a whole probably a

1011
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 1: whole other conversation, but I always felt helpless as a

1012
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: therapist when I encounter grieving people. I don't anymore. We've

1013
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 1: now come across a therapy thatatic dramatically reduces sadness in

1014
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:26,479
Speaker 1: a very short period of time, and it's just, I think,

1015
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 1: a breakthrough and this is my side project that excites

1016
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: me very much that I'm working on around my healthy

1017
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: minds and mind firework.

1018
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: That's very cool, Tom, Thank you for your time. I

1019
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 2: loved the conversation. Very organic, meandering, but very very useful.

1020
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 2: I think for anybody out there who has a brillan

1021
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 2: and especially I think for parents who are struggling with

1022
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: bringing up their kids in and to be mentally healthy

1023
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 2: in today's very very challenging world. I mean, it's easier

1024
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, but it's a shit a

1025
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 2: little more difficult in a lot of ways because there's

1026
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 2: a whole heap of challenges that we never had to

1027
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 2: deal with the kids, most of them in the palm

1028
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:13,919
Speaker 2: of the bloody heart right.

1029
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Now, it's been fabulous to catch up with the Poe.

1030
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 1: I'm glad to see you looking fit and well, and

1031
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: thanks for having me again.

1032
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolute pleasure. We'll have you on again at some stage.

1033
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 2: Thanks Tom, Bye for now.