1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appote production. 2 00:00:14,441 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm your host. 3 00:00:17,561 --> 00:00:21,001 Speaker 2: Adam Shand the idea of a perfect murder as long 4 00:00:21,081 --> 00:00:24,961 Speaker 2: fascinated people that someone could conceal a cause of death 5 00:00:25,001 --> 00:00:27,841 Speaker 2: from the forensic pathologists and the police, to make it 6 00:00:27,881 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: look like suicide or misadventure, or to so meticulously cleanse 7 00:00:32,481 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 2: a crime scene so that they could evade detection. He 8 00:00:36,241 --> 00:00:39,641 Speaker 2: either held his victims or washed them repeatedly so that 9 00:00:39,721 --> 00:00:43,401 Speaker 2: any trace DNA would be removed from their skin. An 10 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: old underworld contact of mine used to say that you 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,121 Speaker 2: only get away with murder when you yourself have died, 12 00:00:49,641 --> 00:00:54,121 Speaker 2: because there's always someone coming after you trying to solve murders. 13 00:00:54,601 --> 00:00:58,601 Speaker 2: Twenty three years later, DNA under a victim's fingernails finally 14 00:00:58,641 --> 00:01:02,041 Speaker 2: tied the killer to the crime. Because forensic science kept 15 00:01:02,081 --> 00:01:06,441 Speaker 2: catching up. The science of forensic pathology and DNA science 16 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 2: has come a long way, making the chance of getting 17 00:01:09,881 --> 00:01:13,481 Speaker 2: away with murder even more remote. And I wonder the 18 00:01:13,481 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: way it's going with science, whether there'll be any secrets 19 00:01:16,761 --> 00:01:17,401 Speaker 2: in the future. 20 00:01:18,121 --> 00:01:20,961 Speaker 1: In another breakthrough, a new DNA tool is being used 21 00:01:20,961 --> 00:01:24,521 Speaker 1: to revisit a nineteen ninety six murder testing evidence that 22 00:01:24,601 --> 00:01:26,401 Speaker 1: technology couldn't crack at the time. 23 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,041 Speaker 2: I'm joined by one of Australia's most respected forensic pathologist, 24 00:01:31,081 --> 00:01:34,801 Speaker 2: doctor David Ranson, to discuss this and other aspects of 25 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,521 Speaker 2: the trade. Welcome David, Hello Adam, how are you very well? Indeed, 26 00:01:38,521 --> 00:01:41,761 Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining me. Have you ever 27 00:01:41,801 --> 00:01:44,161 Speaker 2: seen a perfect murder? Well? 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,681 Speaker 1: No, I mean I think it's it's a great idea. 29 00:01:47,801 --> 00:01:50,041 Speaker 1: And I do a lot of work with crime shows 30 00:01:50,081 --> 00:01:53,081 Speaker 1: and TV shows and films and writers, and they're all 31 00:01:53,121 --> 00:01:57,841 Speaker 1: looking for making murder harder and harder to detect. And 32 00:01:57,961 --> 00:02:00,801 Speaker 1: one of the challenges sometimes, of course, is they want 33 00:02:01,321 --> 00:02:03,681 Speaker 1: you to give them the perfect murder scenario that will 34 00:02:03,761 --> 00:02:07,201 Speaker 1: almost impossible to solve, and for various professional reasons, I 35 00:02:07,201 --> 00:02:08,001 Speaker 1: don't want to do that. 36 00:02:09,281 --> 00:02:12,721 Speaker 2: How many murders did you cover doing your distinguished career 37 00:02:12,721 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: with the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine. 38 00:02:15,041 --> 00:02:18,841 Speaker 1: Well it didn't start there. I started doing cases in 39 00:02:18,841 --> 00:02:21,681 Speaker 1: the UK as a sort of an assistant, you know, 40 00:02:21,841 --> 00:02:25,841 Speaker 1: holding the note sheet for my boss and following around 41 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,761 Speaker 1: seeing what they did. I went to my first murder 42 00:02:28,761 --> 00:02:33,041 Speaker 1: I suppose in nineteen seventy eight actually, and I worked 43 00:02:33,041 --> 00:02:35,921 Speaker 1: with various people in the UK and then did a 44 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,481 Speaker 1: few of my own casework in the UK before I 45 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,601 Speaker 1: came to Australia in eighty eight. So during that ten 46 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,481 Speaker 1: years I was studying further as a pathologist, generally in 47 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: hospital pathology and that sort of thing, and getting exposure 48 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,201 Speaker 1: to forensic cases. Part time, I worked a bit as 49 00:02:51,201 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: a police surgeon or clinical forensic physician as well during 50 00:02:54,041 --> 00:02:57,441 Speaker 1: that era, looking at victims of crime, live victims of crime, 51 00:02:57,481 --> 00:03:00,841 Speaker 1: and of course taking samples from offenders and things like that. 52 00:03:01,041 --> 00:03:04,961 Speaker 1: So that broad background working with you know, coroners, were 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: with police things like that was something that I sort 54 00:03:09,121 --> 00:03:13,441 Speaker 1: of did throughout my professional postgraduate training and so when 55 00:03:13,481 --> 00:03:15,361 Speaker 1: I came to Australia, I was able to sort of 56 00:03:15,401 --> 00:03:19,361 Speaker 1: step into that role reasonably quickly and easily because I 57 00:03:19,401 --> 00:03:22,481 Speaker 1: had that background. But you know, since nineteen eighty eight, 58 00:03:22,841 --> 00:03:24,681 Speaker 1: it's hard to know the numbers, but it would be 59 00:03:24,721 --> 00:03:27,081 Speaker 1: several hundreds of cases that I would have dealt with. 60 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,521 Speaker 1: Plus of course it's not just the cases that you've 61 00:03:29,561 --> 00:03:32,761 Speaker 1: dealt with. You know, forensic pathology is working as a 62 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:37,841 Speaker 1: team and so you all discuss case work with your colleagues, 63 00:03:37,921 --> 00:03:40,841 Speaker 1: you learn from each other, you get somebody's eyes to 64 00:03:40,881 --> 00:03:43,841 Speaker 1: look at something for you, you look at things for 65 00:03:43,921 --> 00:03:48,161 Speaker 1: other people. So you build up a picture of many 66 00:03:48,201 --> 00:03:53,321 Speaker 1: more cases than just the cases you've personally been responsible for. So, 67 00:03:53,521 --> 00:03:57,841 Speaker 1: for example, we get around sixty seventy homicides a year, 68 00:03:58,401 --> 00:04:01,721 Speaker 1: so over thirty forty years, haven't certainly haven't looked at 69 00:04:01,761 --> 00:04:03,881 Speaker 1: all of those, but it's a fair number. 70 00:04:05,041 --> 00:04:08,241 Speaker 2: Any of those were you unable to establish a cause 71 00:04:08,241 --> 00:04:11,921 Speaker 2: of death. I think the actual cases where you don't 72 00:04:11,961 --> 00:04:13,481 Speaker 2: get a cause of death, even if you take that 73 00:04:13,521 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: work generally across coroners are around five percent when it 74 00:04:16,481 --> 00:04:19,161 Speaker 2: comes to homicide. That's probably a bit less. Actually, you 75 00:04:19,281 --> 00:04:23,001 Speaker 2: actually solve a few more in terms of the actual cause, 76 00:04:23,081 --> 00:04:26,121 Speaker 2: the medical cause of death. But there are a whole 77 00:04:26,241 --> 00:04:29,161 Speaker 2: range of cases where it's going to be almost impossible. 78 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,361 Speaker 2: You know, you get some you know, scattered bones that 79 00:04:32,401 --> 00:04:34,601 Speaker 2: are washed up on a beach from someone who's been 80 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:36,881 Speaker 2: had their body disposed of at sea and it's been 81 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,481 Speaker 2: eaten by sharks and sea lies and kinds of things. 82 00:04:40,761 --> 00:04:43,481 Speaker 1: You know, the soft tissue is all gone. So if 83 00:04:43,481 --> 00:04:46,761 Speaker 1: the cause of death lies in the soft tissues, then 84 00:04:46,801 --> 00:04:49,361 Speaker 1: you're not going to see anything. So those are ones 85 00:04:49,401 --> 00:04:52,081 Speaker 1: where you don't have what I call a strictly medical 86 00:04:52,121 --> 00:04:56,001 Speaker 1: cause of death. You might find, you know, some bones 87 00:04:56,001 --> 00:04:58,481 Speaker 1: in the bush somewhere and there's a what looks like 88 00:04:58,521 --> 00:05:02,521 Speaker 1: a very deep, you know, knife notch cut in the bone, 89 00:05:02,801 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: in the ribs over the heart. You might say, well, look, 90 00:05:06,201 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: the chances are there's been a stab wound in the 91 00:05:08,801 --> 00:05:11,121 Speaker 1: area of the heart, and that will be a satisfactory 92 00:05:11,121 --> 00:05:15,001 Speaker 1: cause of death. But I can't absolutely medically prove it 93 00:05:15,361 --> 00:05:16,641 Speaker 1: because the heart's not there. 94 00:05:18,201 --> 00:05:22,041 Speaker 2: How much does intuition and experience play when you're looking 95 00:05:22,801 --> 00:05:26,241 Speaker 2: at a corpse, I could, ever, and something strikes you 96 00:05:26,281 --> 00:05:29,721 Speaker 2: as not quite right? Or is it really that? Mostly 97 00:05:30,041 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: the cause of death is bleedingly obvious. 98 00:05:32,001 --> 00:05:35,001 Speaker 1: Well, look, mostly in those sorts of cases, it is 99 00:05:35,041 --> 00:05:37,361 Speaker 1: bleeding obvious. If you've got gunshot wounds and they're in 100 00:05:37,481 --> 00:05:39,601 Speaker 1: areas of the body where a bullet going through is 101 00:05:39,641 --> 00:05:43,841 Speaker 1: going to cause death straight away, heart, brain, things like that, 102 00:05:44,281 --> 00:05:47,201 Speaker 1: then absolutely there are other parts of the body where 103 00:05:47,241 --> 00:05:49,361 Speaker 1: you may survive for a period of time following a 104 00:05:49,401 --> 00:05:53,601 Speaker 1: gunshot wound. So yes, a lot of cases it's straightforward. 105 00:05:53,601 --> 00:05:56,321 Speaker 1: I always say that the most complicated forensic cases are 106 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:01,001 Speaker 1: not homicides. They're the complicated death associated with complex medical 107 00:06:01,041 --> 00:06:05,601 Speaker 1: treatments that's gone in hospital. You know, scenario where there's 108 00:06:06,041 --> 00:06:11,321 Speaker 1: overlapping of natural disease, overlapping of drugs, overlapping of trauma 109 00:06:12,001 --> 00:06:14,841 Speaker 1: or coming together. You know, teasing that out is a 110 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,961 Speaker 1: real challenge and a lot of times people think that 111 00:06:18,041 --> 00:06:21,481 Speaker 1: forensic pathology is about a cause of death. Actually it's 112 00:06:21,601 --> 00:06:24,401 Speaker 1: not really. When you get to court, the cause of 113 00:06:24,481 --> 00:06:28,681 Speaker 1: death issue is usually very very straightfought. The issue is 114 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: how can forensic pathology help reconstruct the circumstances in which 115 00:06:35,201 --> 00:06:38,281 Speaker 1: the death occurred. I mean, take your gunshot wound case. 116 00:06:38,361 --> 00:06:40,121 Speaker 1: You know some of the shot in the chest. Well, 117 00:06:40,161 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: that's a fairly straightforward cause of death. But where was 118 00:06:43,481 --> 00:06:46,961 Speaker 1: the victim position? How were they positioned? Were they lying down? 119 00:06:46,961 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: Where they're standing up? 120 00:06:47,761 --> 00:06:47,881 Speaker 2: There? 121 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,561 Speaker 1: Were they sitting down? Where was the offender? Were they 122 00:06:50,601 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: above them shooting down? Where they below them shooting up? 123 00:06:53,761 --> 00:06:55,961 Speaker 1: You know, all of those dynamics. Had there been a 124 00:06:56,001 --> 00:06:59,721 Speaker 1: prior fight, were there situations where there's you know, drugs 125 00:06:59,761 --> 00:07:02,561 Speaker 1: involved or something like that means the person wasn't adequately 126 00:07:02,601 --> 00:07:03,961 Speaker 1: able to defend themselves. 127 00:07:04,201 --> 00:07:05,681 Speaker 2: I mean did they themselves and. 128 00:07:05,681 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: The bullets actually nicked through their part of their hand 129 00:07:09,241 --> 00:07:11,521 Speaker 1: as they put their hand up, meaning that they were 130 00:07:11,521 --> 00:07:13,761 Speaker 1: certainly conscious and able to respond at the time they 131 00:07:13,761 --> 00:07:16,001 Speaker 1: were shot. So all of these sorts of factors come 132 00:07:16,041 --> 00:07:22,241 Speaker 1: together in this reconstruction of what were the circumstances surrounding 133 00:07:22,281 --> 00:07:23,401 Speaker 1: the moment of death. 134 00:07:23,721 --> 00:07:27,961 Speaker 2: Because the police and prosecutors come to forensic pathologists and say, 135 00:07:28,401 --> 00:07:32,361 Speaker 2: we believe that we have a suspect who's committed this murder, 136 00:07:33,001 --> 00:07:36,241 Speaker 2: and they're trying to elicit evidence from you and data 137 00:07:36,721 --> 00:07:37,401 Speaker 2: to support that. 138 00:07:38,081 --> 00:07:42,241 Speaker 1: Well, yes, sometimes, I mean sometimes you genuinely have the 139 00:07:42,241 --> 00:07:44,841 Speaker 1: body where there's literally no suspects, no even knows who 140 00:07:44,881 --> 00:07:47,761 Speaker 1: they are, and that, of course you're starting and with 141 00:07:47,841 --> 00:07:50,361 Speaker 1: that sort of methodical way of looking at it. And 142 00:07:50,921 --> 00:07:53,841 Speaker 1: the reality is that whilst people talk a lot about 143 00:07:54,201 --> 00:07:58,881 Speaker 1: intuition and they talk about experience this context, a lot 144 00:07:58,881 --> 00:08:06,641 Speaker 1: of it's about painstakingly following proper protocols covering all your basis. Certainly, 145 00:08:06,641 --> 00:08:09,881 Speaker 1: the more experience you've got you see more things before. 146 00:08:10,561 --> 00:08:13,601 Speaker 1: But that can both be an advantage and if you like, 147 00:08:13,641 --> 00:08:17,121 Speaker 1: a blessing, but also a curse because you tend to 148 00:08:17,201 --> 00:08:20,401 Speaker 1: see the case through your previous experience, and this might 149 00:08:20,481 --> 00:08:21,001 Speaker 1: be novel. 150 00:08:21,441 --> 00:08:22,401 Speaker 2: So you've just. 151 00:08:22,401 --> 00:08:26,481 Speaker 1: Got to be really careful not to say, oh, you've 152 00:08:26,481 --> 00:08:29,361 Speaker 1: got all this huge experience and therefore you're going to 153 00:08:29,401 --> 00:08:32,241 Speaker 1: more easily know the answer. Now, that's not the case. 154 00:08:32,881 --> 00:08:35,841 Speaker 1: What really saves your bacon later on when you're being 155 00:08:35,881 --> 00:08:40,121 Speaker 1: cross examined in court is being thorough and covering all 156 00:08:40,201 --> 00:08:42,961 Speaker 1: your bases, even the ones that you think are probably 157 00:08:43,481 --> 00:08:45,041 Speaker 1: unlikely to be relevant. 158 00:08:45,521 --> 00:08:48,361 Speaker 2: Correct, because we have seen in recent years a tendency 159 00:08:48,481 --> 00:08:53,321 Speaker 2: for the creation of expert medical witnesses who are paid 160 00:08:53,561 --> 00:08:57,121 Speaker 2: well for their services, who sometimes can be accused of 161 00:08:57,241 --> 00:09:00,481 Speaker 2: producing answers that suit their employers. 162 00:09:01,001 --> 00:09:04,841 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean that's always the case really for all experts, 163 00:09:05,241 --> 00:09:08,961 Speaker 1: all disciplines. In reality, whether you're you're an architecture expert 164 00:09:09,041 --> 00:09:11,961 Speaker 1: or whether you're a drug expert or whatever, there's always 165 00:09:12,081 --> 00:09:15,321 Speaker 1: that risk, clearly if you're an employee of government and 166 00:09:15,321 --> 00:09:18,001 Speaker 1: a state government sort of organization where you've got a 167 00:09:18,001 --> 00:09:20,841 Speaker 1: lot of independence, which is certainly a situation that we 168 00:09:21,001 --> 00:09:23,681 Speaker 1: had in the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine. When I 169 00:09:23,721 --> 00:09:25,841 Speaker 1: work there, people have sort of said, well, you could 170 00:09:25,881 --> 00:09:29,041 Speaker 1: have this bias in this direction or that direction. Well, yeah, 171 00:09:29,081 --> 00:09:31,481 Speaker 1: anyone could be biased of course they can, but there 172 00:09:31,561 --> 00:09:33,361 Speaker 1: was really nothing in it for us. I mean, you know, 173 00:09:33,361 --> 00:09:35,721 Speaker 1: it didn't earn any more money because you expressed a 174 00:09:35,761 --> 00:09:39,241 Speaker 1: particular view. You didn't get any more particular cu dos 175 00:09:39,401 --> 00:09:43,441 Speaker 1: because you expressed a particular view. And really what was 176 00:09:43,561 --> 00:09:47,241 Speaker 1: valuable for me when I was practicing was the view 177 00:09:47,281 --> 00:09:49,081 Speaker 1: of the judge in the case or the view of 178 00:09:49,161 --> 00:09:53,321 Speaker 1: the defense barrister, because I think understanding where they were 179 00:09:53,321 --> 00:09:56,081 Speaker 1: coming from in dealing with the case is really important. 180 00:09:56,401 --> 00:09:58,921 Speaker 1: The other thing I think is really useful is even 181 00:09:58,961 --> 00:10:01,801 Speaker 1: if you're doing most of your work within if you're 182 00:10:01,841 --> 00:10:06,921 Speaker 1: like the crown prosecution side of the equation, getting involved 183 00:10:07,001 --> 00:10:11,841 Speaker 1: in cases involving defense work is really important. It's very 184 00:10:11,961 --> 00:10:17,401 Speaker 1: grounding in understanding where the other people are coming from 185 00:10:17,481 --> 00:10:21,641 Speaker 1: or alternative views. And once you understand what alternative views 186 00:10:21,921 --> 00:10:25,281 Speaker 1: can be and how they can be relevant, it actually 187 00:10:25,401 --> 00:10:28,681 Speaker 1: sharpens you up in the way that you're doing your work. 188 00:10:30,601 --> 00:10:34,801 Speaker 2: How much do we have to blame CSI and shows 189 00:10:34,881 --> 00:10:38,641 Speaker 2: like that for misinterpreting what the forensic pathologist actually does? 190 00:10:38,801 --> 00:10:40,121 Speaker 1: Yes, look, I mean this is one of the topics 191 00:10:40,161 --> 00:10:42,521 Speaker 1: I actually sometimes talk about, and I've given a few 192 00:10:42,841 --> 00:10:46,681 Speaker 1: talks to U three A's and propos clubs and various 193 00:10:46,681 --> 00:10:50,681 Speaker 1: community groups are around this, and it is really very 194 00:10:50,721 --> 00:10:56,441 Speaker 1: interesting what those shows do. And I bring it down 195 00:10:56,481 --> 00:11:00,921 Speaker 1: to what I call three condensations. The first condensation is 196 00:11:00,961 --> 00:11:04,681 Speaker 1: the character sets. So most TV shows and so on, 197 00:11:05,041 --> 00:11:07,521 Speaker 1: you can really only have perhaps a half a dozen 198 00:11:07,681 --> 00:11:11,321 Speaker 1: key characters doing the things that need to be done. 199 00:11:11,561 --> 00:11:14,921 Speaker 1: An audience can't hold more than about six key characters 200 00:11:14,921 --> 00:11:17,001 Speaker 1: in mind. In fact, it's probably a bit less than that. 201 00:11:17,401 --> 00:11:19,681 Speaker 1: So what happens in the TV shows is you have 202 00:11:19,721 --> 00:11:22,761 Speaker 1: to have one character who does the job of fifteen 203 00:11:23,001 --> 00:11:25,881 Speaker 1: or twenty people in the real world, so you can 204 00:11:25,921 --> 00:11:28,401 Speaker 1: have the audience identifying with that person. So you have 205 00:11:28,481 --> 00:11:32,841 Speaker 1: these ubiquitous forensic scientists who sort of cover every branch 206 00:11:32,841 --> 00:11:35,681 Speaker 1: of forensic science, whereas in fact the real world there's 207 00:11:35,761 --> 00:11:37,721 Speaker 1: you know, sort of three hundred out there, and they've 208 00:11:37,761 --> 00:11:40,201 Speaker 1: got little teams working in different areas, but they really 209 00:11:40,241 --> 00:11:42,841 Speaker 1: don't work in the other If you're a chemist, you're 210 00:11:42,841 --> 00:11:45,401 Speaker 1: a chemist. You're not a ballistics person. If you're a 211 00:11:45,441 --> 00:11:48,481 Speaker 1: blood spatter DNA person, you're not the same as the 212 00:11:48,721 --> 00:11:53,521 Speaker 1: motor vehicle examiner. Or so this is condensation, and that's 213 00:11:53,561 --> 00:11:56,161 Speaker 1: quite fun. The next conversation is about time. You know, 214 00:11:56,481 --> 00:11:58,561 Speaker 1: your results have to come back at the by the 215 00:11:58,681 --> 00:12:01,241 Speaker 1: end of the TV show and usually after the ad break. 216 00:12:01,241 --> 00:12:04,921 Speaker 1: That's been strategically placed to allow on a morphous period 217 00:12:05,121 --> 00:12:08,241 Speaker 1: time to go past. Whereas the real world it takes time. 218 00:12:08,441 --> 00:12:11,481 Speaker 1: It takes time to get the science right, to not 219 00:12:11,561 --> 00:12:14,841 Speaker 1: only do the test, but then validated, have it audited, 220 00:12:14,961 --> 00:12:17,521 Speaker 1: have it checked, and so on. And these are complex 221 00:12:17,641 --> 00:12:20,761 Speaker 1: processes to make sure that the evidence is reliable. But 222 00:12:20,801 --> 00:12:23,201 Speaker 1: you'll never see any of that in the sort of 223 00:12:23,241 --> 00:12:26,081 Speaker 1: in the TV show side of things. And finally, it's 224 00:12:26,081 --> 00:12:28,561 Speaker 1: a geography. You know, all these things sort of happen 225 00:12:28,641 --> 00:12:31,801 Speaker 1: in one multi center where all these tests are done, 226 00:12:31,801 --> 00:12:33,561 Speaker 1: where the autopsy has done in this room and the 227 00:12:33,601 --> 00:12:36,601 Speaker 1: chemistry is done over there. Sometimes it's all in one 228 00:12:36,641 --> 00:12:41,081 Speaker 1: big room actually, whereas in fact specialist labs are very 229 00:12:41,121 --> 00:12:44,361 Speaker 1: specialist and they have their own areas, they have their 230 00:12:44,401 --> 00:12:47,201 Speaker 1: own places. It may not be unlikely to be the 231 00:12:47,241 --> 00:12:51,001 Speaker 1: same building. The moltuary might be here, the chemistry laboratory 232 00:12:51,081 --> 00:12:53,121 Speaker 1: for this aspect might be over there. There might be 233 00:12:53,121 --> 00:12:57,561 Speaker 1: a university department doing some analysis somewhere else. So it's 234 00:12:57,601 --> 00:13:01,241 Speaker 1: this it's bringing together and if you think of it 235 00:13:01,281 --> 00:13:03,921 Speaker 1: like an orchestra. You know, there's all these different sections 236 00:13:03,961 --> 00:13:06,761 Speaker 1: in the orchestra, and they each got their specialist role. 237 00:13:06,841 --> 00:13:10,721 Speaker 1: They're each particularly relevant to the right sort of music. 238 00:13:11,201 --> 00:13:14,561 Speaker 1: And for one piece of music, one group of instruments 239 00:13:14,641 --> 00:13:18,481 Speaker 1: might be really powerful important, but for another bit of music, 240 00:13:18,521 --> 00:13:21,641 Speaker 1: it's a different group of instruments. But they're all working together, 241 00:13:22,361 --> 00:13:25,761 Speaker 1: and the conductor is the person that's making it all 242 00:13:25,761 --> 00:13:29,801 Speaker 1: come together. Now, when it's a death investigation involving complex 243 00:13:29,881 --> 00:13:32,521 Speaker 1: medical issues, you know, the forensic pathologies is very much 244 00:13:32,601 --> 00:13:36,441 Speaker 1: the conductor in that process, but they're not the only 245 00:13:36,641 --> 00:13:41,801 Speaker 1: person giving the evidence or making the final result that's 246 00:13:41,961 --> 00:13:43,761 Speaker 1: relevant to the particular case. 247 00:13:44,481 --> 00:13:46,761 Speaker 2: And also, I guess the other misconception that comes through 248 00:13:46,801 --> 00:13:51,201 Speaker 2: shows like CSI is that murders are always underworld related 249 00:13:51,641 --> 00:13:54,881 Speaker 2: or some high drama, when the sad reality is the 250 00:13:54,961 --> 00:13:58,081 Speaker 2: vast majority are domestic violence related murders. 251 00:13:58,161 --> 00:13:59,921 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to think back to us the other day. 252 00:14:00,041 --> 00:14:02,521 Speaker 1: That's absolutely right. I think the first case I ever 253 00:14:02,881 --> 00:14:06,081 Speaker 1: dealt with was a domestic violence between partners, and I 254 00:14:06,121 --> 00:14:08,841 Speaker 1: think the last one was the same thing, and probably 255 00:14:08,921 --> 00:14:11,881 Speaker 1: the majority of the cases in between have been that. 256 00:14:12,801 --> 00:14:15,881 Speaker 2: How does that accumulate in your soul, your conscience? 257 00:14:16,321 --> 00:14:20,081 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I mean, people talk a great 258 00:14:20,161 --> 00:14:23,521 Speaker 1: deal about the stresses of a job, and there's obviously 259 00:14:23,641 --> 00:14:27,241 Speaker 1: quite significant issues in people being traumatonized by the work 260 00:14:27,241 --> 00:14:30,481 Speaker 1: that they do, and people often say, well, how can 261 00:14:30,521 --> 00:14:33,281 Speaker 1: you cope with this? I actually think that coping with 262 00:14:33,361 --> 00:14:35,281 Speaker 1: death in the context of my work is a bit 263 00:14:35,321 --> 00:14:37,161 Speaker 1: easier than some of the work that you do as 264 00:14:37,161 --> 00:14:40,401 Speaker 1: a clinician. Dealing with patients who are alive, who are 265 00:14:40,401 --> 00:14:44,201 Speaker 1: struggling with medical issues, who have pain, who have you 266 00:14:44,401 --> 00:14:48,641 Speaker 1: limited lifespan because their illnesses, working with them their families, 267 00:14:48,681 --> 00:14:51,321 Speaker 1: I think is incredibly challenging, and I think much more 268 00:14:51,321 --> 00:14:55,481 Speaker 1: emotionally challenging than dealing with the deceased persons. That's not 269 00:14:55,521 --> 00:14:58,761 Speaker 1: to say that we don't talk to families. I remember 270 00:14:58,841 --> 00:15:01,361 Speaker 1: a case or quite a few years ago now where 271 00:15:01,401 --> 00:15:03,561 Speaker 1: I was up at the Supreme Court giving evidence in 272 00:15:03,681 --> 00:15:07,601 Speaker 1: a difficult again type sort of case, and I've finished 273 00:15:07,601 --> 00:15:11,481 Speaker 1: my evidence and I was away and are walking out, 274 00:15:11,561 --> 00:15:13,961 Speaker 1: and the family of the disease came up to me 275 00:15:14,041 --> 00:15:16,081 Speaker 1: and said, you know, shook my hand and said, you know, 276 00:15:16,161 --> 00:15:18,721 Speaker 1: thank you. But with something we've always wanted to know 277 00:15:18,801 --> 00:15:20,601 Speaker 1: we could never And I went off and had a 278 00:15:20,601 --> 00:15:22,441 Speaker 1: cup of coffee then with them and talk to them 279 00:15:22,441 --> 00:15:24,401 Speaker 1: about the death of their loved one. Nothing to do 280 00:15:24,481 --> 00:15:27,321 Speaker 1: with the case in terms of what happens on, but 281 00:15:27,681 --> 00:15:31,481 Speaker 1: just the experience. They wanted to know what their loved 282 00:15:31,481 --> 00:15:34,601 Speaker 1: one would have experienced and did they feel pain? And 283 00:15:35,081 --> 00:15:40,121 Speaker 1: those are really important conversations and they're critical sometimes. And 284 00:15:40,521 --> 00:15:42,521 Speaker 1: something that we did do a lot of at the incident, 285 00:15:42,561 --> 00:15:45,201 Speaker 1: and we still do, is meet with families at families 286 00:15:45,281 --> 00:15:49,241 Speaker 1: request to take them through those sorts of issues. And 287 00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,841 Speaker 1: sometimes it's not just the immediate family, it might be 288 00:15:51,881 --> 00:15:56,201 Speaker 1: a more distant family. And often what you're doing is 289 00:15:56,281 --> 00:16:01,881 Speaker 1: you're giving the most intimate family member the language that 290 00:16:01,921 --> 00:16:05,601 Speaker 1: they can talk to their families and friends. People find 291 00:16:05,641 --> 00:16:09,441 Speaker 1: it very hard to talk about what happens to their 292 00:16:09,481 --> 00:16:12,561 Speaker 1: loved one, and family and friends will ask them and 293 00:16:12,601 --> 00:16:16,321 Speaker 1: they don't have the language to express it easily because 294 00:16:16,321 --> 00:16:18,761 Speaker 1: it's all strange and novel to them. If you give 295 00:16:18,801 --> 00:16:22,601 Speaker 1: them that language, it actually takes a great deal of 296 00:16:22,721 --> 00:16:26,921 Speaker 1: stress off them in those next weeks and months. And 297 00:16:27,001 --> 00:16:28,921 Speaker 1: I suspect from a point of view of a journalism 298 00:16:28,961 --> 00:16:33,241 Speaker 1: it's very similar you're giving people a language to understand 299 00:16:33,321 --> 00:16:37,321 Speaker 1: what's gone on so that discussions about it can be meaningful. 300 00:16:37,921 --> 00:16:41,761 Speaker 2: As a journalist, if I was seeing a body in 301 00:16:41,801 --> 00:16:44,881 Speaker 2: the mortuary, looking at the injuries that suffered that cause 302 00:16:44,961 --> 00:16:49,361 Speaker 2: their death, I'd be wondering about that person their life, Yes, 303 00:16:49,441 --> 00:16:50,601 Speaker 2: who were they? Yes? 304 00:16:50,881 --> 00:16:54,481 Speaker 1: And actually, in investigations into a death, it's very important 305 00:16:54,521 --> 00:16:57,961 Speaker 1: to get a concept of the person's life because what 306 00:16:58,041 --> 00:17:00,921 Speaker 1: you will see when you examine the body is, if 307 00:17:00,961 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: you like, the imprint of those years of life and 308 00:17:04,881 --> 00:17:07,401 Speaker 1: all the things that happen to them. So there will 309 00:17:07,441 --> 00:17:10,721 Speaker 1: be the old injury, the old broken arm, the old 310 00:17:11,321 --> 00:17:14,281 Speaker 1: disease that they've had and been treated for, and things 311 00:17:14,321 --> 00:17:17,761 Speaker 1: like that. Not that those necessarily explain the death per se, 312 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: but they give you a framework about that person, you know, 313 00:17:21,201 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: tells you something about that person's ability to do work 314 00:17:24,001 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: or to actually move simply and easily, you know, and 315 00:17:28,441 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: things like that, what's their vision like? You know, you 316 00:17:30,681 --> 00:17:34,041 Speaker 1: can't test these things after death, but you can sometimes 317 00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:37,681 Speaker 1: see the markers in the body, which would give you 318 00:17:37,721 --> 00:17:42,041 Speaker 1: some insight into what that person would be like and 319 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,841 Speaker 1: what their abilities would be to do things. And that's 320 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,161 Speaker 1: why we'd like any doctor. Where you go to see 321 00:17:47,201 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: the doctor, the first thing they're doing is taking a history, 322 00:17:50,001 --> 00:17:54,961 Speaker 1: understanding you, understanding why you've come there, understanding what's important 323 00:17:55,001 --> 00:17:58,561 Speaker 1: to you. And it's those issues that help them with 324 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,041 Speaker 1: their diagnosis and treatment. And it's exactly those same issues 325 00:18:02,041 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: that help you interpret what you see in the ceased. 326 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: But also when you're looking at someone who may have 327 00:18:08,801 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 2: suffered unreported domestic violence over a long period, and the 328 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 2: police are trying to establish a motive and a history 329 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:20,561 Speaker 2: behind a murder, so you can paint a picture through 330 00:18:20,761 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 2: previously unreported healed injuries through. 331 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,321 Speaker 1: Well, that may well be the exactly so. But also 332 00:18:26,801 --> 00:18:28,561 Speaker 1: are we talking to the police and saying, well, look, 333 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: I've seen some things here that tell me there's something 334 00:18:30,961 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: gone on in the past. What I think you should 335 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,281 Speaker 1: do is find this person's gp, find out where they've 336 00:18:36,281 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: lived in various places. Find out where which hospitals they 337 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,321 Speaker 1: might have attended if they got an injury. Let's get 338 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,121 Speaker 1: the hospital records from these five or six hospitals when 339 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:49,441 Speaker 1: they've moved around, whatever. Let's look at their admission history 340 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: for that hospital. How many times they come in with 341 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: broken ribs, how many times they come in with them fractures, skull, 342 00:18:55,281 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: facial trauma or something like that. And I'll tell you 343 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,761 Speaker 1: it jumps out at you very very quickly when you see. 344 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,401 Speaker 2: Those sorts of cases. This is sounding more like CSI 345 00:19:04,521 --> 00:19:06,801 Speaker 2: my faith is restored, or maybe that sort of investigation 346 00:19:06,921 --> 00:19:08,001 Speaker 2: going on, you. 347 00:19:07,921 --> 00:19:10,201 Speaker 1: Know, But that is part of the job. I mean, 348 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,001 Speaker 1: it is thinking about the possibilities. A lot of people 349 00:19:14,001 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: think forensic's all about introducing from what you see. The 350 00:19:17,481 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 1: reality is what you're doing is you're creating possible hypotheses 351 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,761 Speaker 1: based on knowledge and experience for sure, and then testing those. 352 00:19:27,521 --> 00:19:31,481 Speaker 1: If you can't conceive of it in the imagination, you're 353 00:19:31,521 --> 00:19:33,721 Speaker 1: probably not going to easily diagnose it. 354 00:19:36,201 --> 00:19:39,641 Speaker 2: Right. Fascinating. Let's get back to the future by going 355 00:19:39,681 --> 00:19:42,521 Speaker 2: to the past. Yes, you've had an amazing career. I 356 00:19:42,561 --> 00:19:44,521 Speaker 2: could pick out of all the things you've done from 357 00:19:44,761 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 2: identifying Warded in Kosovo MH seventeen, but one that I 358 00:19:49,961 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 2: want to talk about is twenty eleven. You were involved. 359 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: You were the lead scientist in identifying the remains of 360 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,481 Speaker 2: Ned Kelly Well. 361 00:19:57,681 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: I wouldn't told myself the lead scientists at all. This 362 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,721 Speaker 1: was a team at Victornian's for forensic medicine where we 363 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,801 Speaker 1: saw the opportunity, and it did. There was a bit 364 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,361 Speaker 1: of a necessity to try and solve some of these issues, 365 00:20:09,681 --> 00:20:12,721 Speaker 1: but we saw the opportunity of saying, well, how can 366 00:20:12,761 --> 00:20:18,721 Speaker 1: we apply modern forensic science to help resolve a historical issue. 367 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:21,961 Speaker 1: And the great thing about that is it's a real 368 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: test bed for all of the techniques you're doing. You know, 369 00:20:25,561 --> 00:20:28,281 Speaker 1: how can we improve our ability to get DNA out 370 00:20:28,321 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: of bone samples, how can we improve our ability to 371 00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:40,881 Speaker 1: analyze remains radiologically and so on. So the opportunity is 372 00:20:40,921 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: that these sorts of activities reinforce the multidisciplinary team context 373 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,121 Speaker 1: of what you're doing. So everyone gets together, they sit 374 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,081 Speaker 1: in the room, they work out ways of doing this. 375 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: Who's going to do what first, let's triage this, let's 376 00:20:56,921 --> 00:20:58,721 Speaker 1: work out how we're going to do this. And you know, 377 00:20:58,801 --> 00:21:01,201 Speaker 1: these are jobs that you know take place over months, 378 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,401 Speaker 1: and we've still got our day job to do. So 379 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,681 Speaker 1: we get on with the day job, and those other 380 00:21:05,761 --> 00:21:08,241 Speaker 1: moments we sit down and we try to think about 381 00:21:08,281 --> 00:21:10,921 Speaker 1: other ways of doing these things and look at these 382 00:21:10,961 --> 00:21:15,281 Speaker 1: historical cases. And this has real application when you get 383 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,681 Speaker 1: the bones of the wood, you know, the bones out 384 00:21:17,681 --> 00:21:20,201 Speaker 1: of the bush somewhere, the bones in a river somewhere, 385 00:21:20,481 --> 00:21:23,841 Speaker 1: Because you're applying these same sorts of techniques, and the 386 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: more the teams are integrated, work with each other, break 387 00:21:28,241 --> 00:21:31,281 Speaker 1: down those general communication barriers we have in all jobs 388 00:21:31,321 --> 00:21:35,521 Speaker 1: that we do. Then it's a powerful way of managing 389 00:21:35,681 --> 00:21:38,281 Speaker 1: resources and delivering them to the task in. 390 00:21:38,281 --> 00:21:42,201 Speaker 2: Hand because you're able back in twenty eleven to identify 391 00:21:42,281 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: those remains, Yeah, through examination of mitochondrial DNA. Yeah, so 392 00:21:47,201 --> 00:21:48,801 Speaker 2: explain what that is for, yeah, certainly. 393 00:21:49,241 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: And Victoria and that in those earlier days of DNA 394 00:21:52,241 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: work was one of the first, well one of the 395 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,721 Speaker 1: only places for a while in Australia that was able 396 00:21:56,721 --> 00:21:59,161 Speaker 1: to do a lot of much control DNA work at 397 00:21:59,201 --> 00:22:02,601 Speaker 1: that forensic level, and so we took cases from all 398 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: the other states as well. So in our cell we 399 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,241 Speaker 1: have nuclear DNA which is inside the nucleus of the cell, 400 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: but out in the cytoplasma cell we've got loads and 401 00:22:11,961 --> 00:22:15,321 Speaker 1: loads of mitochondria. These are the little powerhouses of the cell. 402 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:17,481 Speaker 1: They make the energy if you like that they need 403 00:22:17,521 --> 00:22:20,001 Speaker 1: to keep the cell alive and operating. And each of 404 00:22:20,041 --> 00:22:22,361 Speaker 1: those little michochondria has a little bit of DNA. It's 405 00:22:22,441 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: only a tiny bit of DNA. But the interesting thing 406 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,961 Speaker 1: about it, you only get your mitochondrial DNA from your mother, 407 00:22:29,761 --> 00:22:34,321 Speaker 1: so it's an maternal line inherited. So you know, men 408 00:22:34,441 --> 00:22:38,121 Speaker 1: have the never pass on their mitochondrial DNA. They get 409 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:40,161 Speaker 1: it from their mother and they don't pass it on. 410 00:22:40,521 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: So we have to go back to find those maternal chains. 411 00:22:45,321 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: And by doing those maternal chains, you can show a 412 00:22:48,201 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: potential linkage. Now, it's nothing like the refinement of and 413 00:22:53,001 --> 00:22:55,801 Speaker 1: detail that nuclear DNA will give you so often you 414 00:22:55,840 --> 00:23:00,041 Speaker 1: can't use it necessarily as an absolute identifier, but it's 415 00:23:00,041 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 1: a great excluder and that's a very powerful tool in itself. 416 00:23:04,241 --> 00:23:07,641 Speaker 2: That was successful. You identified poor old ned. Still can't 417 00:23:07,681 --> 00:23:10,001 Speaker 2: find his head, by the way, we'll still outstanding. Yeah, 418 00:23:10,001 --> 00:23:11,761 Speaker 2: we found a little bit, but. 419 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: The actual skull, the remainder of the skull, is not 420 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: in what was recovered. And look, there's lots of good 421 00:23:18,441 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: historical suggestions from various reports at the time that the 422 00:23:23,001 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: head might have been used for various purposes and it 423 00:23:25,761 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: might have been sent off for particular examinations and things 424 00:23:28,921 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 1: like that. You know, those times, people still believed on 425 00:23:31,481 --> 00:23:33,881 Speaker 1: the you know, the phrenology and the bumps on the head, 426 00:23:33,961 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: and they used to make death masks of executed prisoners 427 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: in plaster and so on, And indeed there was the 428 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: mask in the old Melbourne jail. Number of these death 429 00:23:43,961 --> 00:23:47,561 Speaker 1: masks and they're there. There was a skull on displaying 430 00:23:47,561 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: the old Mobile jail was said to be mid Calis skull, 431 00:23:50,001 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: but we proved it is not and was not his 432 00:23:53,201 --> 00:23:55,521 Speaker 1: skull turned out to be Frederick Deming. Well it was 433 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,681 Speaker 1: once a Jack the Ripper. Well they didn't it didn't 434 00:23:57,681 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: turn out to be Fredrick. We actually thought it might be. 435 00:24:01,001 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: And I was going over to the UK actually to 436 00:24:04,281 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: see family, and we made an arrangement to actually exhume 437 00:24:08,201 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: Frederick Deming's brother while I was there. Interesting holiday occupation, 438 00:24:14,761 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: but you know, we wanted to see whether that was 439 00:24:18,281 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: an explanation for where that skull in the old Melville 440 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 1: Jail came from. Now, I mean, it was a very 441 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: difficult thing to do in exhumation that we needed to 442 00:24:26,921 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: talk to family, We need to get that approval, and 443 00:24:29,201 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: we actually had to go to the ecclesiastical court in 444 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,321 Speaker 1: the UK to get permission. They weren't interested in it. 445 00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: From the pond of the scientific side of it. It 446 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,681 Speaker 1: had to have a moral dimension in order to make 447 00:24:43,761 --> 00:24:47,721 Speaker 1: that exhumation reasonable, and there were certain moral issues here 448 00:24:47,761 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: in relation to what should happen to these remains, and 449 00:24:50,441 --> 00:24:52,841 Speaker 1: who should they be, what great should they go in, 450 00:24:52,921 --> 00:24:56,561 Speaker 1: and things like that. So eventually we made that case 451 00:24:56,561 --> 00:25:00,041 Speaker 1: and got permission to do that. Unfortunately turned out that 452 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,041 Speaker 1: the deer I didn't match that skull, so we don't 453 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,801 Speaker 1: know whose that skull was. But the other interesting thing 454 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:07,521 Speaker 1: we did, which I think is a fat aging and 455 00:25:07,561 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: a good example of modern forensic pathology, and it probably 456 00:25:11,241 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: represents the biggest single change in my professional lifetime in 457 00:25:15,721 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: the work of forensic pathology, is we were able to 458 00:25:18,521 --> 00:25:22,521 Speaker 1: use our molituary CT scanner. Now people may not realize, 459 00:25:22,521 --> 00:25:26,201 Speaker 1: but every single death it gets reported into that forensic 460 00:25:26,241 --> 00:25:30,361 Speaker 1: and coronia process has a whole body CT scan. We 461 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: started that in two thousand and five, one of the 462 00:25:32,721 --> 00:25:35,801 Speaker 1: first centers to do that. And what we're able to 463 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,321 Speaker 1: do was we took these death masks that were in 464 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:42,041 Speaker 1: the old Welbourne jail, we set scanned, then we set 465 00:25:42,201 --> 00:25:45,601 Speaker 1: scanned the skull that have been on display and then 466 00:25:45,681 --> 00:25:49,121 Speaker 1: did a physical trigu or physical sort of chicksaw fit, 467 00:25:49,721 --> 00:25:53,641 Speaker 1: does this skull fit inside the plaster head, And that's 468 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,441 Speaker 1: where we came up with four or five that might 469 00:25:57,001 --> 00:26:00,761 Speaker 1: be the plaster castle of the skull and althose Frederick 470 00:26:00,761 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: Demian was one of those sort of physical fits, but 471 00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,281 Speaker 1: there were others that could have physically fitted us well. 472 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,881 Speaker 1: Fascinating because in the intervening years DNA science has come 473 00:26:10,921 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: forward in leaps and bounds. I was involved in a 474 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,121 Speaker 1: case up in New South Wales where a jawbone washed 475 00:26:15,201 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: up on r Minor Beach. It was blackened, it had 476 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,561 Speaker 1: been in some mangroves for a long period of time, 477 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: but they could not connect it to any existing cases 478 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:27,401 Speaker 1: partial recoveries of people, and in the end a new technology, 479 00:26:27,481 --> 00:26:33,801 Speaker 1: forensic investigative genetic genealogy was used to the FIG system 480 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 1: to reveal that it was poor Henry George Coleman had 481 00:26:36,721 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: fallen off a cliff back in nineteen eighty and it 482 00:26:39,921 --> 00:26:42,001 Speaker 1: wasn't recorded that his jawbone was missing. So at the 483 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: end of all that that they discovered who it was. 484 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,921 Speaker 1: And by the way, we'd made all these podcast episodes 485 00:26:46,921 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: seeking information about this murder and abduction whatever it was 486 00:26:49,961 --> 00:26:52,001 Speaker 1: going to be, turned out it was much more every 487 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: day than that, and they were able to bury that 488 00:26:55,241 --> 00:26:58,121 Speaker 1: jawbone with his remain. Yes, and that's where I think 489 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,241 Speaker 1: that sort of moral and ethical concept comes in. It's 490 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,441 Speaker 1: really important, but those cases fascinating. I had a very 491 00:27:04,561 --> 00:27:06,521 Speaker 1: very similar case to that when I was actually in 492 00:27:06,521 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: the UK. I was sitting there as a lecturer in 493 00:27:09,481 --> 00:27:12,641 Speaker 1: pathology and police walked in one day with a jaw 494 00:27:13,281 --> 00:27:16,281 Speaker 1: that had been found in the in the estuary and 495 00:27:16,561 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: they showed to me and asked me to have a 496 00:27:18,201 --> 00:27:20,041 Speaker 1: look at it and you know, help them with this. 497 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:21,801 Speaker 1: And it looked as it had been there a long 498 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,801 Speaker 1: long time. And I looked at this and it was 499 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: a very robust jaw, more much more robust than you'd 500 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: expect in a Caucasian and I thought, well, that's a 501 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: bit interesting. It looked almost Negroid sort of, you know, 502 00:27:32,681 --> 00:27:37,961 Speaker 1: that very pronounced bone formation and structure. And I sort 503 00:27:37,961 --> 00:27:39,521 Speaker 1: of thought, well, okay, there's not much we can do 504 00:27:39,561 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: because DNA wasn't really talking about the early eighties, it 505 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,041 Speaker 1: wasn't really in the same sort of usage at that time. 506 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,241 Speaker 1: So I took up went up to the anatomy department 507 00:27:49,241 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: at the university where I was working and found the 508 00:27:51,961 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: one of the older anatomy professors who did a bit 509 00:27:54,761 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: of work in the past for police and things like that. 510 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,161 Speaker 1: And I said, look, police have brought me this jaw. 511 00:27:59,561 --> 00:28:02,120 Speaker 1: What do you think And he agreed with my sort 512 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,041 Speaker 1: of initial thoughts. He said, you know, he said, that 513 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,001 Speaker 1: reminds me we had a case. Oh, it would be 514 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. I remember they brought me something they 515 00:28:11,201 --> 00:28:14,241 Speaker 1: founded the estuary. I don't find it. And he went 516 00:28:14,281 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: along to the next room. Since said old days of 517 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: Native Department, we had all these collections and things. He 518 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: pulled a cardboar box off the shelf and inside this 519 00:28:21,561 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 1: car boxes is a skull and a smattering of different 520 00:28:25,561 --> 00:28:29,521 Speaker 1: very heavy bones, and we picked up this mandible lower 521 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,721 Speaker 1: jaw and we just put it on the skull and 522 00:28:31,761 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: it was a perfect fit. So this was almost certainly 523 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,521 Speaker 1: the jaw that had come from that that remains that 524 00:28:40,561 --> 00:28:41,361 Speaker 1: had been found. 525 00:28:41,161 --> 00:28:42,041 Speaker 2: Twenty years ago. 526 00:28:42,721 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: And you know, there was a bit of a story 527 00:28:44,761 --> 00:28:46,641 Speaker 1: to that, and so we were able to wrap that 528 00:28:46,761 --> 00:28:50,841 Speaker 1: case up really because of that physical fit. Now today 529 00:28:50,921 --> 00:28:53,801 Speaker 1: we would have gone on and done DNA and things 530 00:28:53,841 --> 00:28:56,481 Speaker 1: like that wasn't really available in quite that same way 531 00:28:56,521 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: at that time, but we were able to do dental matches, 532 00:28:59,281 --> 00:29:00,961 Speaker 1: We were able to do a whole variety of things, 533 00:29:01,001 --> 00:29:02,961 Speaker 1: which made that quite a reliable fit. 534 00:29:03,481 --> 00:29:07,561 Speaker 2: Because you see the sibilities with the application of this technology. 535 00:29:07,641 --> 00:29:11,681 Speaker 2: This FIG, which is literally Layman's terms high high level 536 00:29:11,761 --> 00:29:16,481 Speaker 2: DNA matched with family ancestry searching to create a list 537 00:29:16,481 --> 00:29:22,361 Speaker 2: of suspects or possible people human remains, and then you 538 00:29:22,401 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: can narrow it down to a using investigative. Now have 539 00:29:25,281 --> 00:29:28,761 Speaker 2: new investigative leads to find the answer. Will there be 540 00:29:28,801 --> 00:29:31,281 Speaker 2: no secrets in the future with this technology? 541 00:29:31,361 --> 00:29:33,201 Speaker 1: Well, I mean the answer to that in the sense 542 00:29:33,321 --> 00:29:36,001 Speaker 1: is that it's almost hard to predict the future, but 543 00:29:36,201 --> 00:29:40,881 Speaker 1: absolutely will be much more refined over time about those 544 00:29:40,921 --> 00:29:42,361 Speaker 1: sorts of things. So one of the things you're doing 545 00:29:42,361 --> 00:29:45,001 Speaker 1: in FIG essentially is saying, we've got these remains, we 546 00:29:45,001 --> 00:29:48,521 Speaker 1: don't know who they are. Can we find a family 547 00:29:48,881 --> 00:29:52,241 Speaker 1: person linked to that person by looking at what people 548 00:29:52,281 --> 00:29:54,641 Speaker 1: have done when they've sent off their mouth swab or 549 00:29:54,641 --> 00:29:58,161 Speaker 1: whatever it is, to these various genealogy sites to find 550 00:29:58,161 --> 00:30:02,961 Speaker 1: out your ancestry. So they can use those big databases 551 00:30:02,961 --> 00:30:05,641 Speaker 1: of people and it may well be there's a remote 552 00:30:05,681 --> 00:30:09,041 Speaker 1: cousins somewhere who's on one of those genalogy databases, and 553 00:30:09,081 --> 00:30:13,081 Speaker 1: we can find links and open up the possibility of 554 00:30:13,161 --> 00:30:19,161 Speaker 1: identifying that person by now knowing a family contact, exploring 555 00:30:19,241 --> 00:30:22,881 Speaker 1: the genealogy of that family to see who this person 556 00:30:23,001 --> 00:30:27,081 Speaker 1: might be within that family's genealogy. So and what it does, 557 00:30:27,121 --> 00:30:30,561 Speaker 1: as you rightly say, is it opens up opportunities for 558 00:30:30,641 --> 00:30:35,001 Speaker 1: further investigation. Doesn't solve the case specifically, But if there 559 00:30:35,001 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: may be a story and that family of you know, 560 00:30:37,961 --> 00:30:41,681 Speaker 1: Uncle Fred who went missing and never returned home, you know, 561 00:30:41,761 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: and that police never found out why went missing, and 562 00:30:44,521 --> 00:30:47,801 Speaker 1: so on, and all of a sudden, you've actually helped 563 00:30:47,801 --> 00:30:51,361 Speaker 1: that family understand what happened to Uncle Fred or whatever. 564 00:30:51,761 --> 00:30:53,321 Speaker 2: So those are important. 565 00:30:53,321 --> 00:30:57,321 Speaker 1: They've they've got a social context as well. However, there 566 00:30:57,361 --> 00:31:01,681 Speaker 1: are other techniques that are becoming important. The techniques where 567 00:31:01,721 --> 00:31:03,841 Speaker 1: you say, well, let's look at some DNA and see 568 00:31:03,841 --> 00:31:08,361 Speaker 1: what that DNA and this unknown body's remains is coding 569 00:31:08,481 --> 00:31:12,881 Speaker 1: for in terms of physical characteristics of the body. So 570 00:31:12,961 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: let's look at this piece of bone and look at 571 00:31:15,481 --> 00:31:18,601 Speaker 1: its DNA and say, well, is the is the person 572 00:31:19,161 --> 00:31:21,641 Speaker 1: likely to have had, you know, blue eyes or brown eyes, 573 00:31:21,761 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: or blonde hair or black hair, or were they like 574 00:31:25,241 --> 00:31:27,041 Speaker 1: to be over six feet tall or less than six 575 00:31:27,441 --> 00:31:30,841 Speaker 1: things like that. Now, these are all very their guestimates 576 00:31:30,841 --> 00:31:32,801 Speaker 1: in a sense, they're not quite guesses, but they are 577 00:31:32,921 --> 00:31:36,241 Speaker 1: statistical analyzes. So it might be, well, the person's got 578 00:31:36,241 --> 00:31:40,841 Speaker 1: a seventy percent chance on our current databasis of having 579 00:31:40,881 --> 00:31:45,281 Speaker 1: this characteristic of blue eyes. Let's say whatever. Now that's 580 00:31:45,281 --> 00:31:48,281 Speaker 1: our current databases. What was the database as that relevant 581 00:31:48,321 --> 00:31:50,841 Speaker 1: to that might be twenty thirty, forty, fifty years ago, 582 00:31:51,281 --> 00:31:54,161 Speaker 1: it might be slightly different. So precision is not possible 583 00:31:54,201 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: as yet, but it's likely that we will start to 584 00:31:57,321 --> 00:32:00,561 Speaker 1: get more and more precise about these things, and the 585 00:32:00,601 --> 00:32:04,601 Speaker 1: more data we have about the human populations, the more 586 00:32:04,641 --> 00:32:07,801 Speaker 1: acciate some of these analysis are likely to be. They're 587 00:32:07,841 --> 00:32:11,681 Speaker 1: not good enough yet, I think in criminal processes. I 588 00:32:11,681 --> 00:32:14,081 Speaker 1: don't think they're going to appear in criminal case work 589 00:32:14,161 --> 00:32:20,241 Speaker 1: for decades, but eventually I think there will be important 590 00:32:20,281 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: issues that you can get from some of these things, 591 00:32:22,601 --> 00:32:27,601 Speaker 1: perhaps less about physical characteristics things like that, but perhaps 592 00:32:27,641 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: about diseases that the person may have suffered from. Now, 593 00:32:30,721 --> 00:32:35,081 Speaker 1: is this person got markers for a particular type of disease? Again, 594 00:32:35,121 --> 00:32:36,681 Speaker 1: it's not going to bee hundred percent of a match, 595 00:32:36,721 --> 00:32:38,601 Speaker 1: but it can give you a link and you might say, well, 596 00:32:38,601 --> 00:32:41,241 Speaker 1: if this person has a risk of getting this disease, 597 00:32:42,161 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: let's look at people from twenty years ago in this 598 00:32:45,281 --> 00:32:48,121 Speaker 1: particular area. Let's look at the hospital records. Let's see 599 00:32:48,121 --> 00:32:50,121 Speaker 1: if there were people with that disease. And again, that 600 00:32:50,201 --> 00:32:53,001 Speaker 1: might help you narrow down the pall because that's what 601 00:32:53,081 --> 00:32:55,361 Speaker 1: detectives want all the time. You know, if a dead 602 00:32:55,481 --> 00:33:00,161 Speaker 1: body or person lying there could be anyone from multiple 603 00:33:00,201 --> 00:33:03,881 Speaker 1: generations going back, and that's millions of people. You just 604 00:33:03,921 --> 00:33:06,401 Speaker 1: need a way to start, So narrow that down to 605 00:33:06,441 --> 00:33:10,281 Speaker 1: a smaller and smaller subset. Searching for a car. You know, 606 00:33:11,801 --> 00:33:14,521 Speaker 1: look at all the white vans. It's a nightmare. But 607 00:33:14,601 --> 00:33:16,841 Speaker 1: a white van with this brand of tire on it, 608 00:33:16,881 --> 00:33:19,961 Speaker 1: with this particular tread. Wow, now you start to narrow 609 00:33:20,001 --> 00:33:20,361 Speaker 1: it down. 610 00:33:21,041 --> 00:33:25,081 Speaker 2: Because fig was used to uncover the identity of the 611 00:33:25,081 --> 00:33:29,561 Speaker 2: Golden State Killer in America, Joseph James DeAngelo, who stopped 612 00:33:29,561 --> 00:33:31,921 Speaker 2: his offending, his murdering, and raping at a time when 613 00:33:31,921 --> 00:33:34,281 Speaker 2: he felt DNA was now starting to catch up on him. 614 00:33:34,481 --> 00:33:37,241 Speaker 2: He was wrong because it was going to advance right, 615 00:33:37,321 --> 00:33:40,881 Speaker 2: and he was identified through that process. Do you see 616 00:33:40,881 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 2: a situation in Australia where we go from unidentified him 617 00:33:44,521 --> 00:33:49,801 Speaker 2: and remains being identified to criminal suspects being identified through this? 618 00:33:50,481 --> 00:33:55,841 Speaker 1: It's certainly possible. The question is what's our happiness or 619 00:33:55,881 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: a comfort with that sort of analysis, because when you 620 00:33:58,481 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: start doing that, you're exposing vast numbers of people to 621 00:34:02,041 --> 00:34:04,921 Speaker 1: be incorporated within this sort of case, most of whom 622 00:34:05,161 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: will have nothing to do with it. So it's a 623 00:34:07,721 --> 00:34:10,761 Speaker 1: bit like you know, ID cards or having everyone's fingerprints 624 00:34:10,801 --> 00:34:14,081 Speaker 1: on record, or having everyone's DNA on record. I mean, 625 00:34:14,561 --> 00:34:16,681 Speaker 1: in one sense, if you're saying we want to solve 626 00:34:17,641 --> 00:34:21,641 Speaker 1: more crimes and we want to solve it easier and cheaper, 627 00:34:21,921 --> 00:34:24,361 Speaker 1: then that will be a great thing to do. But 628 00:34:24,401 --> 00:34:26,921 Speaker 1: of course you've got a whole heap of issues where 629 00:34:27,001 --> 00:34:30,401 Speaker 1: once all that's available, could it be used for another purpose? Well, 630 00:34:30,481 --> 00:34:33,721 Speaker 1: sure it could, and then you're stuck with these situations. 631 00:34:33,801 --> 00:34:37,481 Speaker 1: What is our comfort level as a society about having 632 00:34:37,641 --> 00:34:41,401 Speaker 1: all this public information, private information about a person sorry, 633 00:34:41,441 --> 00:34:45,841 Speaker 1: out there within government agencies or commercial organizations and so on. 634 00:34:46,121 --> 00:34:49,321 Speaker 1: And that's a real challenge for the community, you know. 635 00:34:49,481 --> 00:34:52,121 Speaker 2: And that's a good point because in my experience, police 636 00:34:52,161 --> 00:34:54,681 Speaker 2: always want bigger guns and more powers and they never 637 00:34:54,681 --> 00:34:57,241 Speaker 2: give them back. Well, that's I think that's interesting. 638 00:34:57,321 --> 00:34:59,561 Speaker 1: It's true because you know, having come from when I came, 639 00:34:59,681 --> 00:35:01,681 Speaker 1: when I left the UK, you know police weren't armed 640 00:35:01,921 --> 00:35:04,201 Speaker 1: and a lot of general police are still not armed 641 00:35:04,241 --> 00:35:06,801 Speaker 1: to the UK. And once you do arm, you know, 642 00:35:06,841 --> 00:35:08,681 Speaker 1: if you looked at, say some of the policy shooting 643 00:35:09,041 --> 00:35:11,521 Speaker 1: events that occurred, many of them would not have occurred 644 00:35:11,561 --> 00:35:14,201 Speaker 1: if the police weren't armed, and in fact there might 645 00:35:14,201 --> 00:35:16,081 Speaker 1: have been other ways to solve those instances. Now I'm 646 00:35:16,081 --> 00:35:18,521 Speaker 1: not saying that there's not a reason to have armed police. 647 00:35:18,561 --> 00:35:21,881 Speaker 1: I mean they're really from a public safety body, and 648 00:35:21,961 --> 00:35:24,081 Speaker 1: given the changing world, there are times when that is 649 00:35:24,121 --> 00:35:28,001 Speaker 1: absolutely critical and it's important. I think that police are 650 00:35:28,241 --> 00:35:32,841 Speaker 1: trained and skilled in the use of controlled managed force, 651 00:35:33,281 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: no question about that. 652 00:35:34,881 --> 00:35:36,801 Speaker 2: But you do have to sort of look, you know, 653 00:35:37,081 --> 00:35:38,161 Speaker 2: recognize the fact. 654 00:35:38,001 --> 00:35:40,401 Speaker 1: That once you get stuff out there, as you say, 655 00:35:40,521 --> 00:35:43,521 Speaker 1: it's really hard to wind that back. We have very 656 00:35:43,881 --> 00:35:47,081 Speaker 1: good and tight legislation of Victoria which talks about what 657 00:35:47,161 --> 00:35:49,401 Speaker 1: could be on the DNA database and what can't be 658 00:35:49,481 --> 00:35:52,121 Speaker 1: left on the database and things like that, and they're 659 00:35:52,201 --> 00:35:57,281 Speaker 1: important balances, if you like, between individual privacy and public safety. 660 00:35:57,601 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: And at some point, you know, government makes the call. 661 00:36:00,601 --> 00:36:04,001 Speaker 1: Government part of the legislation, and you know they advance 662 00:36:04,081 --> 00:36:06,201 Speaker 1: what they believe is the right thing to do in 663 00:36:06,241 --> 00:36:08,921 Speaker 1: the community and votes the men or votes them out. 664 00:36:09,361 --> 00:36:11,521 Speaker 2: It's as simple as that. It'll be a fascinating discussion. 665 00:36:11,641 --> 00:36:13,521 Speaker 2: I mean, one case that I've been intimately involved with, 666 00:36:13,561 --> 00:36:15,801 Speaker 2: and you don't need to comment on its actual content, 667 00:36:15,841 --> 00:36:18,441 Speaker 2: but the mister cruel series of inductions that led to 668 00:36:18,481 --> 00:36:22,241 Speaker 2: the alleged murder of Carmen Chant and I discovered in 669 00:36:22,281 --> 00:36:25,041 Speaker 2: my research that there was two sets of DNA from 670 00:36:25,081 --> 00:36:30,161 Speaker 2: eighty five through to ninety one which police held, and 671 00:36:29,921 --> 00:36:32,041 Speaker 2: they did compare them back in the day and they 672 00:36:32,041 --> 00:36:35,001 Speaker 2: didn't match. So we have at least two offenders involved 673 00:36:35,121 --> 00:36:38,721 Speaker 2: in that spree. Do you see a situation where those 674 00:36:38,761 --> 00:36:41,401 Speaker 2: sort of samples that were taken back in those days 675 00:36:41,441 --> 00:36:46,201 Speaker 2: could be useful to identifying but also prosecuting a potential offender. Oh? 676 00:36:46,241 --> 00:36:48,121 Speaker 1: Sure, And I think one of the interesting things about 677 00:36:48,201 --> 00:36:52,481 Speaker 1: DNA samples is their stability if they're kept in a 678 00:36:52,681 --> 00:36:58,321 Speaker 1: correct way. Now, those early days, DNA wasn't particularly widely 679 00:36:58,361 --> 00:37:01,401 Speaker 1: available for analysis and so on, we sort of imagine 680 00:37:01,401 --> 00:37:03,921 Speaker 1: it was always there because we have it today, but 681 00:37:04,001 --> 00:37:04,841 Speaker 1: it wasn't always there. 682 00:37:05,241 --> 00:37:05,601 Speaker 2: Forms. 683 00:37:05,761 --> 00:37:08,921 Speaker 1: You need a lot of biological material to get a 684 00:37:09,001 --> 00:37:12,881 Speaker 1: DNA result in those very early days. Now you need tiny, 685 00:37:13,121 --> 00:37:16,121 Speaker 1: tiny amounts of DNA to get a result. So even 686 00:37:16,281 --> 00:37:20,201 Speaker 1: with DNA results that failed years gone by could be 687 00:37:20,241 --> 00:37:24,681 Speaker 1: looked at again with more sensitive techniques and get a result. 688 00:37:24,801 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: That The problem is when you were able to work 689 00:37:27,081 --> 00:37:31,201 Speaker 1: DNA on tiny, tiny samples, the risk of analyzing the 690 00:37:31,241 --> 00:37:35,001 Speaker 1: wrong bit of DNA is heightened. How was those how 691 00:37:35,041 --> 00:37:38,001 Speaker 1: are those samples stored? Who stored them, and you know 692 00:37:38,041 --> 00:37:40,161 Speaker 1: who handled them, and all those things then start to 693 00:37:40,161 --> 00:37:43,481 Speaker 1: become an issue. But absolutely we've you know, they're historical 694 00:37:43,601 --> 00:37:47,921 Speaker 1: and ancient DNA labs deal with mummy fied remains from 695 00:37:47,961 --> 00:37:50,001 Speaker 1: thousands of years and ago, and they can get good 696 00:37:50,081 --> 00:37:53,801 Speaker 1: DNA results. So the capacity to do that in the 697 00:37:53,801 --> 00:38:00,041 Speaker 1: future exists. It also will be strongly depended on how 698 00:38:00,161 --> 00:38:04,481 Speaker 1: well those DNA samples were kept and stored. 699 00:38:05,761 --> 00:38:12,521 Speaker 2: So your message to any cold case murderers, sexual assaults, 700 00:38:12,561 --> 00:38:15,121 Speaker 2: and so forth is they should not be relaxing because 701 00:38:15,161 --> 00:38:17,721 Speaker 2: the future is coming to tap you on the shoulder 702 00:38:17,761 --> 00:38:21,761 Speaker 2: again one day soon in the future, it's certainly possible. Absolutely, 703 00:38:22,401 --> 00:38:24,601 Speaker 2: thank you for your time today, Dr David Ranson. Thank you, 704 00:38:25,681 --> 00:38:28,281 Speaker 2: and that was Dr David Ranson. That's a fascinating area, 705 00:38:28,281 --> 00:38:30,601 Speaker 2: this one, and I think listeners can get involved. They 706 00:38:30,641 --> 00:38:33,281 Speaker 2: can actually upload their DNA if they have a missing 707 00:38:33,321 --> 00:38:36,201 Speaker 2: person in their family or they're a victim of crime, 708 00:38:36,521 --> 00:38:40,201 Speaker 2: they can actually upload their DNA to jed match, look 709 00:38:40,241 --> 00:38:42,961 Speaker 2: it up and that could be something in the future 710 00:38:43,161 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 2: that could help resolve these cases. Thank you for listen. 711 00:38:46,521 --> 00:38:49,521 Speaker 2: This has been real crime with Adam shanned and if 712 00:38:49,521 --> 00:38:51,881 Speaker 2: you have any information, don't forget to share it with 713 00:38:51,921 --> 00:38:55,921 Speaker 2: me at Adam shand writer at gmail dot com or 714 00:38:55,961 --> 00:38:58,121 Speaker 2: if you want to go to crime Stoppers one eight hundred, 715 00:38:58,281 --> 00:39:01,001 Speaker 2: triple three, triple zero. Thanks for listening.