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Speaker 1: Hope..... comes from honesty. And we will have hope again.

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Speaker 1: But first, honesty. It comes from saying the things politicians

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Speaker 1: usually avoid.

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Speaker 2: Last week, Britain's new Prime Minister, Annie Burnham, stood in

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Speaker 2: front of the Labour Party conference and promised to break

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Speaker 2: politics as usual.

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Speaker 1: I am ready to do things my predecessors wouldn't. I

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Speaker 1: will make a break... with the direction of the past

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Speaker 1: 40 years and put Britain on a new path.

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Speaker 2: In an emotional speech, he took aim at privatisation, austerity

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Speaker 2: and Brexit, arguing that Britain's departure from the European Union

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Speaker 2: had done more harm than good.

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Speaker 1: And what has it given us? A country run for

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Speaker 1: vested interests, not in the public interest, with power held

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Speaker 1: in too few hands and too many places left to drift.

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Speaker 2: Alistair Campbell was in the room and he sees Burnham's

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Speaker 2: speech as part of a much bigger political moment. As

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Speaker 2: populist parties gain ground, America redraws its alliances and China

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Speaker 2: asserts more power abroad. For countries like Britain and Australia,

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Speaker 2: that means old assumptions about political leadership, alliances and global

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Speaker 2: power are being tested.

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Speaker 3: All at once.

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Speaker 2: I'm Daniel James and you're listening to 7am. Today, former

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Speaker 2: Tony Blair advisor and the co-host of The Rest Is Politics,

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Speaker 2: Alastair Campbell, on how centre-left leaders can respond to the

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Speaker 2: rise of populism and what a shifting global order means

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Speaker 2: for countries like Australia. It's Monday, October 5. Alastair, thanks

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Speaker 2: for joining us. In the last few days, we've seen...

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Speaker 2: A pretty bold speech from UK Prime Minister Andy Burnham.

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Speaker 2: You were actually in the room. He was emotional. He

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Speaker 2: took risks. He was daring. Our own Prime Minister Anthony

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Speaker 2: Albanese has often been criticised for his lack of boldness

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Speaker 2: at times. Do you think he and other centre-left leaders

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Speaker 2: could learn from the Burnham approach?

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Speaker 4: Well, a lot depends on what now happens, but I

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Speaker 4: certainly can't overestimate the strength of the impression he made yesterday.

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Speaker 4: I've known Andy Byrne for 30 years, but I saw

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Speaker 4: something yesterday that said to me, politicians really can grow.

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Speaker 1: The politician in me wants to give the usual tub-thumping

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Speaker 1: conference speech today. But the patriot in me tells me

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Speaker 1: something very different is needed.

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Speaker 4: And I do think the country's crying out for bold,

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Speaker 4: strong leadership. I think the world is crying out for

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Speaker 4: it because we see so much of it as bad leadership.

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Speaker 4: I mean, Donald Trump is a bold leader, but he's

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Speaker 4: a bad leader. He's a bad human being. What I

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Speaker 4: think we saw with Andy Burnham was a genuine human being,

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Speaker 4: a real empathy and warmth and passion about what he believes.

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Speaker 4: And so, yeah, look, I like Al Bowen. I think

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Speaker 4: he gets a pretty hard rap a lot of the time.

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Speaker 4: But I certainly think politics should be about big things.

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Speaker 4: And what you saw with Andy Burnham's speech yesterday was

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Speaker 4: a lot of kind of big ideas coming Stuff that

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Speaker 4: he's believed all his life, but he's now in a

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Speaker 4: position where he can actually hopefully start to bring some

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Speaker 4: of this into being.

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Speaker 2: Was there a particular line in the speech that stuck

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Speaker 2: out to you?

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Speaker 3: I loved, because I'm a Brexit obsessive. You've mentioned it

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Speaker 3: once or twice. Yeah, I do.

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Speaker 4: But I like the way that he took their slogan,

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Speaker 4: take back control, and threw it back in their face.

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Speaker 4: You know, the right were the ones who lost control.

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Speaker 1: The British right talk about taking back control. Never let

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Speaker 1: them forget. They are the ones that gave it away

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Speaker 1: in the first place.

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Speaker 4: In a way, one of the most memorable moments of

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Speaker 4: the speech was when he was saying nothing. It was

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Speaker 4: where he was clearly struggling to hold his emotions together.

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Speaker 4: And you could see that's what was happening to him

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Speaker 4: when he was coming up to talk about his dad

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Speaker 4: who'd recently died.

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Speaker 3: Whatever its flaws.

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Speaker 1: This country gave my dad a good life. And it

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Speaker 1: has given his sons opportunities he didn't get for himself.

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Speaker 1: He recognised that and was grateful for it.

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Speaker 2: One of the interesting things that we picked up about

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Speaker 2: the speech was he didn't mention Nigel Farage by name

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Speaker 2: in the speech. Is that a good strategy when it

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Speaker 2: comes to dealing with these populist right figures? Because that's

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Speaker 2: something both our PM and our opposition leader are struggling

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Speaker 2: with at the moment, weighing up how hard to actually

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Speaker 2: go against a leader or a populist right leader like

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Speaker 2: Pauline Hanson.

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Speaker 4: I think Pauline Hanson's in a slightly different position to

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Speaker 4: Nigel Farage because Nigel Farage is slightly on the skids.

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Speaker 4: The feeling is there that he's slightly on the skids.

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Speaker 4: And therefore, I think it was quite clever because he

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Speaker 4: was basically saying, this is about us. It's not about them.

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Speaker 4: It's what we do. It's not about what we think

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Speaker 4: of them. And, you know, I like a good political fight.

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Speaker 4: And there's a part of me that thought I really

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Speaker 4: wanted to hear him, you know, really lay into.

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Speaker 3: The populist far right. But he didn't. And I thought

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Speaker 3: it was clever.

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Speaker 4: Pauline Hanson, I think, is, I get the sense, even

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Speaker 4: though she's been around for a very, very long time,

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Speaker 4: I get the feeling, you can correct me if I'm

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Speaker 4: wrong on this, but I get the feeling that she's

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Speaker 4: in that place where, where the populists tend to get to,

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Speaker 4: where they're getting the benefit of the doubt, they're getting

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Speaker 4: quite an easy ride. People are sort of saying, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: she's different, therefore we'll back her. I suspect she will

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Speaker 4: go the same way as Nigel Farage. The only question

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Speaker 4: is whether she goes the same way as Nigel Farage,

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Speaker 4: with power or without power.

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Speaker 3: And I hope it's the latter.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned that Farage seemed to be on the slide

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Speaker 2: in the UK. We know that Donald Trump's numbers are tanking.

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Speaker 2: Do you think the populist right has reached its peak

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Speaker 2: in a global sense yet?

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Speaker 4: I don't know the answer to that because you look

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Speaker 4: at Germany where the AFD have had two pretty impressive

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Speaker 4: election wins in regional elections and they're still doing pretty

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Speaker 4: well in the national polls as well. You look at

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Speaker 4: France and you think, well, Marine Le Pen, she's been

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Speaker 4: through the same process and lots of these populist leaders

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Speaker 4: in sort of being convicted of criminal offences but still

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Speaker 4: standing and still going and still looking like it's entirely

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Speaker 4: possible she could become the next president of France, which

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Speaker 4: would be a huge change for France and for Europe.

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Speaker 4: So I don't think that those of us who are

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Speaker 4: on the kind of progressive side of politics should get

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Speaker 4: too remotely complacent.

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Speaker 3: And also the other thing.

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Speaker 4: Is we have a very curious media landscape right around

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Speaker 4: the world now.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I find it extraordinary.

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Speaker 4: And again, I don't know if this is happening in Australia,

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Speaker 4: but I'll tell you something that's happening in Britain and Europe.

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Speaker 4: we are being bombarded by anti-us propaganda, both from Russia

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Speaker 4: and from the United States. You know, Elon Musk is

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Speaker 4: openly supporting people who are even further to the right

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Speaker 4: of Pauline Hanson.

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Speaker 3: Okay, congratulations.

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Speaker 4: Congratulations, Tommy, on putting together an amazing event and really

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Speaker 4: rallying the people of Britain.

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Speaker 1: Elon, none of this could have happened without you giving

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Speaker 1: the British public access to the truth and giving us

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Speaker 1: free speech.

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Speaker 4: There's so much aggressive anti-UK, anti-London propaganda, which is weird.

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Speaker 5: I mean, if you go through London, London's a much

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Speaker 5: different place. You have a terrible mayor. He's a nasty guy,

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Speaker 5: nasty person. He's a very bad mayor. You have crime

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Speaker 5: that's very high. And London's a very much different place.

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Speaker 4: Than And this is, you know, if you think about

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Speaker 4: the Trump thing, what I find so weird about the

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Speaker 4: Trump administration, particularly the second term, is this constant pandering

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Speaker 4: to his traditional enemies and the constant nastiness about his

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Speaker 4: traditional allies, most dramatically Canada, but also us and France

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Speaker 4: and Germany.

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Speaker 3: And meanwhile, he's talking about how much he loves Kim Jong-un.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of weird.

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Speaker 2: Weird's a good word for it. We're seeing... In terms

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Speaker 2: of the global discontent amongst voting bases around the Western world,

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Speaker 2: the right have been able to harness that anger and

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Speaker 2: eject it into a political movement. We haven't seen the

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Speaker 2: same thing so much on the left. We've just had

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Speaker 2: a Greens party that's elected a new leader who is

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Speaker 2: looking to capitalise on the same discontent. Is there a

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Speaker 2: way to harness Mamdani-style politics elsewhere in the world?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there is, for sure.

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Speaker 4: And, you know, I mentioned the German elections, and okay,

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Speaker 4: The AFD did very, very well in Sachsen-Anhalt and then

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Speaker 4: more recently in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. But the election in Berlin was

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Speaker 4: won by Die Linke, which is a very left-wing party,

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Speaker 4: where they did seem to kind of latch on to

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Speaker 4: a feeling of discontent about both about the mainstream parties,

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Speaker 4: but also about the far right. So, look, I think

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Speaker 4: what we're seeing in the modern age, and, you know,

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Speaker 4: you Back to Burnham, we saw this with him yesterday.

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Speaker 4: People are responding to what I call charisma with depth.

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Speaker 3: Mamdani's an amazing communicator.

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Speaker 4: He's a good-looking guy. He's got an interesting backstory and

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Speaker 4: all that. But he's also, he's smart. There's more, he's

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Speaker 4: not just, like Andy, the conservatives here, they're trying to

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Speaker 4: sort of project Andy Burnham as the TikTok prime minister.

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Speaker 3: He's much deeper than that.

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Speaker 4: So I think you need these smart leaders who can

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Speaker 4: mobilize people to feel that they're going somewhere with them.

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Speaker 4: And much as I despise Trump, you know, he has

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Speaker 4: shown that he has the ability to do that just

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Speaker 4: in a way that I think does massive damage to

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Speaker 4: the world. But look, for sure, people on the left

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Speaker 4: can do this. But it ultimately comes down to individuals

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Speaker 4: being to do it and to being elected. then being

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Speaker 4: able to inspire and build and tap into the feelings

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Speaker 4: of a movement but you've got to have that leadership.

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Speaker 2: Coming up how middle powers like australia are repositioning as

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Speaker 2: the global order shifts If we stick with Burden's speech,

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Speaker 2: he was very critical of Brexit, saying that it's done

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Speaker 2: more harm than good. He was even kind of leaving

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Speaker 2: the door open to reversing it. Do you think there's

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Speaker 2: a world in which that could happen, that Britain could

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Speaker 2: actually rejoin the EU?

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Speaker 4: There's definitely a world in which that could happen. The

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Speaker 4: road towards it is very, very complicated. I certainly think

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Speaker 4: it was interesting. What he did in the speech was

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Speaker 4: to sort of say, we're going to set out.

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Speaker 3: The options.

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Speaker 4: And he did an interview where he said, yeah, one

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Speaker 4: of those options could be that we try to rejoin.

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Speaker 4: Once you start to put that out there, then you

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Speaker 4: can create a sense of inevitability. There'll be massive opposition

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Speaker 4: from some. But it's been interesting today to watch. Look,

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Speaker 4: you think about our right wing newspapers and how crazed

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Speaker 4: they became about Brexit. And, you know, anybody who dared

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Speaker 4: to question it was an enemy of the people. They

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Speaker 4: were very, very timid in response today because they know

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Speaker 4: that their readers and their viewers, they think this has

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Speaker 4: been a complete dog's dinner.

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Speaker 2: If we talk about the European Union and what it

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Speaker 2: could look like and the movement of things at the moment,

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Speaker 2: how fast-paced everything is, recently there was talk that Canada

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Speaker 2: could become the first associate member of the EU and

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Speaker 2: that countries like Australia and New Zealand could follow suit.

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Speaker 2: What could strategic alliances like that mean for this shifting

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Speaker 2: world order that we're seeing as the Trump effect continues

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Speaker 2: to make waves across the planet?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think two of the most significant speeches of

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Speaker 4: modern times have been made by Mark Carney. One was

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Speaker 4: the speech that he made at Davos, where he basically

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Speaker 4: said that the change in America under Trump was not

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Speaker 4: a transition, it's a rupture.

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Speaker 6: Allies will diversify to hedge against uncertainties. They'll buy insurance,

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Speaker 6: increase options in order to rebuild sovereignty. Sovereignty that was

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Speaker 6: once grounded in rules, but will increasingly be anchored in

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Speaker 6: the ability to withstand pressure.

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Speaker 4: So people are looking to build these new alliances. And,

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Speaker 4: you know, we interviewed on the podcast, on our podcast recently,

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Speaker 4: Alexander Stubb, the president of Finland, very smart guy. And

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Speaker 4: he was saying that, you know, we need to think

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Speaker 4: really big about what Europe is.

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Speaker 3: Ukraine, Norway, Iceland, even Turkey, UK, definitely.

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Speaker 4: And he was saying that, you know, if we could

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Speaker 4: get those countries to be part of a different European Union,

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Speaker 4: then you are really in a position to start to

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Speaker 4: be the sort of, if you like, the third leg

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Speaker 4: on the three-legged stool. You've got the US, increasingly unreliable.

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Speaker 4: You've got China, increasingly assertive, but also still deeply authoritarian.

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Speaker 4: Europe's the only other body in the world that can

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Speaker 4: get close to being that third leg.

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Speaker 3: And if that meant that we're not.

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Speaker 4: Just talking about Europe, but we're talking about Europe as

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Speaker 4: an idea and an ideal, which countries even as far

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Speaker 4: away as yours could think, well, we have more in

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Speaker 4: common with that than we do with the other two legs,

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Speaker 4: that could become incredibly interesting.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of the world order, what did you make of

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump and Xi Jinping's recent meeting?

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Speaker 4: What were your.

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Speaker 2: observations. And who do you think now holds the power

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Speaker 2: in that relationship? The body language itself was fascinating.

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Speaker 4: I mean, neither you or I were in there in

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Speaker 4: the meetings where they were talking, where you'd probably got

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Speaker 4: a better feel from it. But you'd have to say

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Speaker 4: that Trump looked the weaker to me. And if you

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Speaker 4: actually look at the kind of outcomes, very, very hard

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Speaker 4: to see what they were, what the Americans felt that

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Speaker 4: they got out of that. The fact that, for example,

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Speaker 4: the Chinese readout of the meeting suggested that Trump was

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Speaker 4: sort of moving to their position on Taiwan. The American

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Speaker 4: readout didn't say that, but there's a certain sort of

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Speaker 4: mischievous confidence in the way that they did that. And

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Speaker 4: even a bit, there was that extraordinary moment where Trump

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Speaker 4: was showing Xi Jinping the ridiculous line of photographs he's

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Speaker 4: got of all the old presidents with Joe Biden as

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Speaker 4: an auto pen. And we don't often see Xi Jinping

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Speaker 4: laugh or smile, okay? He's very kind of, you know,

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Speaker 4: he's got that same face all the time.

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Speaker 3: And he was laughing. That's great. Well, we have a

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Speaker 3: lot of respect for you.

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Speaker 4: You know, Trump would imagine he was laughing at Joe Biden.

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Speaker 4: I don't think he was. I think he was looking

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Speaker 4: at that thinking, this is really wacky. This is not serious, right?

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Speaker 4: So I just feel that Trump was doing what Trump does,

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Speaker 4: is sort of enjoying the pageantry, enjoying the sort of,

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Speaker 4: you know, isn't this a big deal, but not getting

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Speaker 4: that much out of it. And I thought, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you're aware of this, the fact

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Speaker 4: that he went to... I know this sounds trivial on

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Speaker 4: one level, the fact that he went to greet the plane.

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Speaker 3: Very unusual.

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Speaker 4: Now, American presidents don't do that. The last time they

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Speaker 4: did that was JFK for Macmillan, way back. And so...

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Speaker 4: I think it just looked a bit needy, whereas Xi

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Speaker 4: Jinping just looked like Xi Jinping always looks.

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Speaker 2: And finally, Alistair, isn't one of the perverse things about

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Speaker 2: the Trump presidency is that in a time of great

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Speaker 2: tumult and great shifting globally, that.

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Speaker 3: Anything is possible?

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Speaker 2: And isn't there a lesson in that for leaders around

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Speaker 2: the world?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 4: This is where I think we've got to get confidence back.

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Speaker 4: I think that one of the problems in in the UK,

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Speaker 4: I think Brexit, in a sense, was a sign of

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Speaker 4: the way that we were losing confidence in ourselves. I

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Speaker 4: think Europe has lost quite a lot of confidence, not

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Speaker 4: least because we left. And the thing that the populist

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Speaker 4: and authoritarian right do is they emanate a sense of

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Speaker 4: being right about everything all the time. And I don't

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Speaker 4: believe that we should be like that. But at the

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Speaker 4: same time, we've got to regain a sense of confidence

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Speaker 4: that the values that we believe in, that we hold,

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Speaker 4: the things that we believe in, the progress that we

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Speaker 4: want to make for the world, that it's always worth

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Speaker 4: fighting for. And that's, I think, what's been so inspirational

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Speaker 4: about Mark Carney.

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Speaker 3: He's always got that sort of positive sense.

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Speaker 4: And it's exactly why Andy Burnham's speech has gone down

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Speaker 4: as well as it did, because he was basically saying, listen, we.

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Speaker 3: Believe the right things.

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Speaker 4: Let's just be a bit more confident that we can

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Speaker 4: put those beliefs into practical action by developing an approach

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Speaker 4: to the economy, an approach to society, an approach to

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Speaker 4: the world, that is better than the dominant forces right now.

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Speaker 2: Well, Alistair, we're looking forward to seeing you in Australia

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Speaker 2: later this year. Thank you for joining us on 7am.

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Speaker 3: My pleasure.

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Speaker 2: And if you want to see Alistair in the flesh,

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Speaker 2: An Evening with Alistair Campbell is touring Australia from 18th November.

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Speaker 2: Tickets and further details at fane.com.au. Also in the news,

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Speaker 2: an 18-year-old P-plate driver who allegedly ploughed his car into

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Speaker 2: a group of Newcastle Knights fans injuring 10 people has

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Speaker 2: been refused bail in court. It's been reported the teenager

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Speaker 2: had already been suspended from driving earlier this year. Of

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Speaker 2: the 10 people injured, the most serious is a 5-year-old

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Speaker 2: girl and a 67-year-old, both in a serious but stable condition.

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Speaker 2: And the Australian Federal Police is investigating Australian links to

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Speaker 2: the FlyDubai pilot who allegedly attacked his colleagues in the

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Speaker 2: cockpit in an effort to crash the plane last week.

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Speaker 2: The ABC reports that the Joint Counterterrorism Team is investigating

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Speaker 2: whether the man, who studied here in Australia between 2015

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Speaker 2: and 2017, was radicalised while in Australia. I'm Daniel James.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to 7am.

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Speaker 3: We'll be back tomorrow.

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Speaker 5: You