WEBVTT - Why would a university have a deal with Lockheed Martin?

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<v Speaker 1>Concentration levels were high at Lockheed Martin's headquarters in Canberra.

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<v Speaker 1>Fingertips were tapping away at keyboards and eyes glued to

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<v Speaker 1>screens as fifteen teams from around the nation battled it

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<v Speaker 1>out at code Quest.

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<v Speaker 2>It's pretty fascinating to see photos of children with their

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<v Speaker 2>code Quest certificates standing in front of a Lockheed Martin banner.

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<v Speaker 1>More businesses urged to host events similar to this.

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<v Speaker 2>And these are companies like Lockheed Martin, bae, rafeon, Boeing.

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<v Speaker 2>They're all in there basically providing stem curriculum. If you're

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<v Speaker 2>making money off making weapons, you shouldn't be involved in

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<v Speaker 2>delivering educational material. I think that's definitely a conversation that

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<v Speaker 2>needs to be.

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<v Speaker 3>Had from Schwartz Media. I'm Ashlyn McGee. This is seven AM.

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<v Speaker 3>For the past few months, there's been a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>focus on university's relationships with the weapons manufacturers. Students set

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<v Speaker 3>up camps and occupied buildings, arguing that the universities are

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<v Speaker 3>complicit in the assault on Gaza and demanding more transparency.

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<v Speaker 3>But as writer and contributor to The Saturday Paper, Anakrean

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<v Speaker 3>started investigating defense money flowing into education. She was startled

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<v Speaker 3>to find weapons. Companies are involved in schools too, shaping

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<v Speaker 3>key hearts of the curriculum. Australia can't be a major

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<v Speaker 3>defense player without a skilled defense industry. So are these

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<v Speaker 3>trade offs we're willing to live with today? And Akreean

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<v Speaker 3>on how the student protests revealed really deep divisions in

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<v Speaker 3>our education sector.

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<v Speaker 4>That's after the break.

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<v Speaker 3>And are you were watching as students are universities across

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<v Speaker 3>the country occupied the grounds in protest over the last

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<v Speaker 3>couple of months. Tell me about what's been happening.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, So there's been about a dozen or so

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<v Speaker 2>student encampments across the country basically part of the sort

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<v Speaker 2>of nationwide Free Palestine protest movement.

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<v Speaker 5>Tensions ran high in Melbourne as protests unfold across the country.

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<v Speaker 5>Pro Palestinian camps have now been set up at universities

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<v Speaker 5>in Melbourne, Sydney, Canberra, Adelaide and Perth. Inspired by the

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<v Speaker 5>movement in the US.

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<v Speaker 2>They've been ongoing since about April, asking for their universities

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<v Speaker 2>to disclose and divest from relationships with Israeli universities.

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<v Speaker 5>Young people are tired of being plicated and told to

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<v Speaker 5>sit by while our government supports horrors unfold in Palestine.

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<v Speaker 2>But also so I think, probably most interestingly, to divest

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<v Speaker 2>from research partnerships with weapons manufacturers.

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<v Speaker 3>Sen's of billions of dollars of partnerships with weapons manufacturers,

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<v Speaker 3>including but not limited to Lucked, Martin, Bolling and DA Systems.

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<v Speaker 2>Not They were arguing that these relationships with these weapons manufacturers,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, and these are the big primes as they're known,

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<v Speaker 2>these big weapons companies that were seeded in the Cold

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<v Speaker 2>War era and have become you know, the major weapons manufacturers.

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<v Speaker 4>Wherever there's a war, wherever.

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<v Speaker 2>There's something going on, you know, you'll be sure to

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<v Speaker 2>find their hardware. In the process, we demand that our

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<v Speaker 2>university cut ties with the weapons company. They're saying, this

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<v Speaker 2>is a degree of complicity that we need to take

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<v Speaker 2>responsibility for.

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<v Speaker 6>Evening, we'll breaking news now pro Palestinian protesters have taken

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<v Speaker 6>over a building at the University of Melbourne. They are

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<v Speaker 6>vowing they will not move.

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<v Speaker 2>A few weeks ago in Melbourne, the protests groups they're

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<v Speaker 2>really up the ante. When they went from the lawn,

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<v Speaker 2>had had a whole bunch of tents set up. Then

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<v Speaker 2>they actually moved into the Arts West building and occupied it.

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<v Speaker 6>University staff are warning the group leave now of face arrest.

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<v Speaker 6>Victoria Police have told us they're monitoring the situation.

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<v Speaker 4>And it was quite a definitive move on their part.

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<v Speaker 2>That's when they really forced the administrators to the table

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<v Speaker 2>to negotiate what their demands were, and the University of

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<v Speaker 2>Melbourne agreed to disclose their relationships with weapons manufacturers and

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<v Speaker 2>be more transparent about these relationships what transpires within them.

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<v Speaker 3>So and to tell me a little bit more about

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<v Speaker 3>how Australian universities working with weapons companies. What do we

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<v Speaker 3>know about those relationships and how strong the links are.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I think it's really interesting and I think

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people didn't know about it until these

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<v Speaker 2>recent protests. The Coalition government under Malcolm Turnbull, they announced

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred billion for defense over the following decade.

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<v Speaker 7>Decade long military build ups about to pump defense suppliers

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<v Speaker 7>with more than two hundred billion dollars in orders.

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<v Speaker 8>This is a big game changing step.

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<v Speaker 2>Malcolm Turnbull basically announced that Australia now has an ambition

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<v Speaker 2>to get into the top ten weapons exporters.

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<v Speaker 7>Today, the Prime Minister Maurice Paine and I launched the

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<v Speaker 7>Defense export strategy for Australia. It's the first time any

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<v Speaker 7>government has made such a dramatic commitment to growing our

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<v Speaker 7>defense exports and ensuring that we overcome the peaks and

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<v Speaker 7>troughs that have the devil the defense industry over many

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<v Speaker 7>decades in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>So eight years ago, Universe City of Melbourne announced a

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<v Speaker 2>co joint research center with Lockheed Martin, which is the

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<v Speaker 2>largest weapons exporter in the world.

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<v Speaker 8>The establishment of the lab here is advanced R and

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<v Speaker 8>D by Australians, but for the globe. You know that

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<v Speaker 8>we're doing this for the planet. That's really important to me.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was announced as quite enthusiastically as the first

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<v Speaker 2>time Lockheed Martin has opened a research center outside of

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<v Speaker 2>the United States. Less than two years later, there was

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<v Speaker 2>another press release which announced an agreement between BAE Systems

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<v Speaker 2>to have future collaborations between the university and that massive company.

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<v Speaker 9>Are you hunting for a career and life post UNI?

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<v Speaker 9>That solid, flexible and gives you a real sense of purpose. Hi,

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<v Speaker 9>I'm Cassie from BAE Systems, Australia's largest defense and security company.

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<v Speaker 2>University of Sydney formalized a relationship with tallis a French

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<v Speaker 2>giant renowned for its guarded weapons.

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<v Speaker 4>So the list just keeps.

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<v Speaker 2>Going on and on and on, and in a way,

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<v Speaker 2>it's an extension of the commercialization of the higher education sector,

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<v Speaker 2>which has created tensions for a long time now between

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<v Speaker 2>you know, what are the values of academic research and

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<v Speaker 2>what are the values of the private sector, which are

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<v Speaker 2>really the clash. Academic freedom has a clear stipulation that

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<v Speaker 2>research needs to be transparent and findings are published basically

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<v Speaker 2>so they can be replicated, whereas the private sector is

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<v Speaker 2>founded on intellectual property, commercial and confidence. You know, those

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<v Speaker 2>two sectors have always clashed. And now you've got this

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<v Speaker 2>extra layer that's the military industry research sector, which is

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<v Speaker 2>bound up in you know, national security measures. It's why

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<v Speaker 2>there's this push and pull over transparency.

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<v Speaker 3>And so then after these kind of negotiations between students

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<v Speaker 3>and the universities, you know, University of Melbourne, take that

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<v Speaker 3>as an exam. The UNI has agreed to more transparency.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that a big deal?

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<v Speaker 2>The Free Palestine movement saw it as a big deal.

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<v Speaker 2>They saw it as a victory, and they packed up

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<v Speaker 2>their encampment and left the campus. They released a statement

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<v Speaker 2>saying that they would commit to additional disclosure of research.

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<v Speaker 4>Grant arrangements, but they added, you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know, a disclaimer saying disclosure is subject to confidentiality obligations,

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<v Speaker 2>national security regulations and law, and the safety and security

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<v Speaker 2>of our researchers. It's yet to be seen as to

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<v Speaker 2>how much Melbourne University is actually going to disclose, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean a lot can be hidden underneath disclaimers like that.

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<v Speaker 3>After the break how the orcsteal could turbocharge these partnerships.

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<v Speaker 3>So and these relationships between the weapons industry and universities

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<v Speaker 3>are pretty controversial. But just flip that for a moment

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<v Speaker 3>and talk to me about why a country like Australia

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<v Speaker 3>would want top researchers at universities involved in this.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, having this really tight integration between the military

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<v Speaker 2>and industry and academia, universities have a real tightrope to

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<v Speaker 2>walk here.

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<v Speaker 4>In terms of what it is that universities do.

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<v Speaker 2>We've got the government creating a one hundred and twenty

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<v Speaker 2>eight million dollar fund for four thousand places at sixteen

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<v Speaker 2>universities which are connected to the August submarine program. So

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<v Speaker 2>here why the emerate professor at ANU, he's basically probably

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<v Speaker 2>one of the most foremost critics of AUCUST, and he

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<v Speaker 2>says that if you know these previous defense strategies, if

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<v Speaker 2>they've permeated university life, then he says that AUCUST is

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<v Speaker 2>going to turbocharge it. So says that two things are

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<v Speaker 2>happening simultaneously. The university sector and other elements of our

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<v Speaker 2>research sector are being drawn more and more into forms

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<v Speaker 2>of military related research, and AUCUS is a huge part

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<v Speaker 2>of that. But it's also because of the way the

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<v Speaker 2>strategic environment is evolving. Basically what we're now in in

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<v Speaker 2>this new Cold War, Australia's positioned itself strongly in supporting

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<v Speaker 2>the United States in maintaining dominance in East Asia and

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<v Speaker 2>the West Pacific. There's a lot that's been said about

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<v Speaker 2>AUGUST and the submarine program which has gone through a

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<v Speaker 2>decade of mismanagement.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, that's a whole other story in itself.

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<v Speaker 2>But if AUGUST is to succeed, we basically don't have

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<v Speaker 2>an industry or a skill set to make it succeed.

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<v Speaker 2>If AUCUST is going to be successful, the integration of

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<v Speaker 2>military industry, government and academia to create this entirely new sector.

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<v Speaker 2>Who White points to comments from the South Australian Premier

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<v Speaker 2>Peter Melanaskis, who told attendees at a news corps defending

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<v Speaker 2>Australia's summit that if August was going to succeed, it

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<v Speaker 2>needed to fundamentally transform every aspect of national policy, from

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<v Speaker 2>immigration to education. And as far as Hugh White's concerned,

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<v Speaker 2>He's right, this is going to touch every part of

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<v Speaker 2>our life, not just universities, and in universities, basically the

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<v Speaker 2>relationship to the military world is going to become deeper

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<v Speaker 2>and more extensive on one hand and more exclusive.

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<v Speaker 4>On the other.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's going to be a bigger part of the

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<v Speaker 2>way they operate, a bigger source of money, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>also controversially going to be a bigger constraint on what

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<v Speaker 2>they do do.

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<v Speaker 3>And so what's the government's role in deepening those relationships center.

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<v Speaker 2>So in March this year, Parliament passed a Defense Trade

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<v Speaker 2>Controls Amendment Act, which really alarmed the academic and scientific

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<v Speaker 2>community basically because it creates this export license free environment

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<v Speaker 2>between the Orcist partners which removes barriers to defense trade, research,

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<v Speaker 2>collaboration and codevelopment.

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<v Speaker 10>Now, the overriding purpose of this bill is, as the

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<v Speaker 10>bill states, to strengthen Australia's national security and protect sensitive

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<v Speaker 10>defense goods and technology by enhancing australis difference.

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<v Speaker 2>So you have across the university sector research with individual

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<v Speaker 2>foreigners and other nations have now become fraught. There are

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<v Speaker 2>jail terms you know that are on the table now

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<v Speaker 2>if researchers share expertise.

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<v Speaker 4>And knowledge in a way which might threaten that arrangement.

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<v Speaker 10>My view and that of the committees that the bill

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<v Speaker 10>will support and strengthen the objectives of ORCIST partnership with

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<v Speaker 10>the United States and the United Kingdom allow on for

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<v Speaker 10>great opportunities for both industry and individuals engaging in regulated

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<v Speaker 10>defense articles and services, as well as building a much

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<v Speaker 10>more robust industrial base.

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<v Speaker 2>And last year, a president of the Australian Academy of Science,

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<v Speaker 2>Chenapatu Jagadish, expressed real serious reservations about the leisureslation's impact

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<v Speaker 2>on scientific research in Australia especially.

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<v Speaker 4>We're more than a third of the.

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<v Speaker 2>Postgrade research students are from overseas, so basically many universities

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<v Speaker 2>are sort of at their idealistic heart, a global enterprise

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<v Speaker 2>where researchers and academics create bonds with utter nations and

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<v Speaker 2>it's kind of like a soft diplomacy. So when you

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<v Speaker 2>have this sort of military complex drawing in academia along

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<v Speaker 2>with industry, I mean, basically what a lot of people

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<v Speaker 2>are talking about is how it's binding us to certain

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<v Speaker 2>countries and not to others.

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<v Speaker 4>And there's a real worry about what that might do in.

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<v Speaker 2>All sorts of sectors throughout Australian society.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's fairly logical that weapons companies would want to

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<v Speaker 3>be making the most of cutting air je academic reas,

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<v Speaker 3>but are they involved in other parts of our education

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<v Speaker 3>system too?

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<v Speaker 2>So, I mean I've had these conversations with multiple people,

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<v Speaker 2>like I spoke to Isaac Boval who is a member

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<v Speaker 2>of Teachers and Students for Palestine, and he talks about

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<v Speaker 2>it as been a real whitewashing campaign to have weapons

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<v Speaker 2>companies in universities and to try and normalize the business

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<v Speaker 2>that they do. And Isaac Bovo obviously agrees. He says,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're making money off making weapons, you shouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>involved in delivering educational material. But what has also been

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<v Speaker 2>revealed is that they're also in primary schools and high schools.

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<v Speaker 2>These are companies like Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Bae rafeon basically

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<v Speaker 2>providing STEM curriculum applications such as Science Alive, First Lego League.

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<v Speaker 2>It's pretty fascinating to see photos of children with their

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<v Speaker 2>co Quest certificates standing in front of a Lockheed Martin banner.

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<v Speaker 2>What these weapons companies say is that they're all about

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<v Speaker 2>self defense, and every country has a right to self defense.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a matter of what point does self defense become

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<v Speaker 2>warmongering and what point does self defense become profit driven?

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<v Speaker 2>And these are really deep complicated issues that we really

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<v Speaker 2>need robust democratic conversation around. You know that it's taken

0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.320
<v Speaker 2>a protest movement that has you know, been the butt

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<v Speaker 2>of quite a lot of criticism to publicize these relationships.

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<v Speaker 4>To be honest, that's not good enough.

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<v Speaker 2>We should already have had a really large degree of

0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.240
<v Speaker 2>transparency around them.

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<v Speaker 3>And I thanks so much for your time today.

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<v Speaker 4>That's all right, thank you for having me.

0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.720
<v Speaker 3>Also in the news today. That's whether that Julian Ossange

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<v Speaker 3>will ever publish confidential documents again. At a press conference yesterday,

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<v Speaker 3>his wife Stella refused to give a definitive answer, saying

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<v Speaker 3>that for now, Assange wants to taste real food and

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<v Speaker 3>enjoy his freedom, but added she believed he would always

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<v Speaker 3>defend human rights. Stella Assange held the press conference yesterday

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<v Speaker 3>alongside MP's from the cross Bench and longtime supporters of

0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:36.040
<v Speaker 3>Assange's cause. Before we go today as special note, for

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<v Speaker 3>the past two and of it years, Scott Mitchell has

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<v Speaker 3>been our editor here at seven Am, but today is

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<v Speaker 3>his final show. He says, thanks for listening, love you all,

0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.479
<v Speaker 3>but we have something to say to Scott's smart, his creative,

0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:51.880
<v Speaker 3>he's full of energy, and he's also just a really

0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 3>good human. We've been so lucky to work with him.

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<v Speaker 3>So from the entire team here, goodbye bye Scott, goodbye chief,

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.520
<v Speaker 3>see you Scott, Bye Scott, Bye Steve, I mean Scott

0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:08.440
<v Speaker 3>brother Mitchell, goodbye and thank you. It's also my last

0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.040
<v Speaker 3>show hosting seven Am and the biggest thanks to all

0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.840
<v Speaker 3>of you for listening every weekday for the past few months.

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<v Speaker 3>So special thanks to editor in chief Eric Jensen and

0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.360
<v Speaker 3>editor Scott Mitchell for having me keep this seat warm.

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<v Speaker 3>Next week your host will be a familiar voice, Rick

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<v Speaker 3>Morton before Ruby Jones returns in a couple of weeks.

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<v Speaker 3>Seven Am is a daily show from Schwartz Media and

0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.960
<v Speaker 3>The Saturday Paper. It's produced by Kara Jensen, McKinnon, Shane

0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:37.920
<v Speaker 3>Anderson and Zalton Fecho. Our senior producer is Chris Danngate.

0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.120
<v Speaker 3>Our technical producer is Atticus Bastow.

0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 4>Our editor for the.

0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.760
<v Speaker 3>Last time Scott Mitchell. Sarah mcvee is our head of audio.

0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.119
<v Speaker 3>Eric Jensen is our editor in chief. Mixing by Travis

0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:51.680
<v Speaker 3>Evans and Atticus Bastow. Our theme music is by Ned

0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:55.920
<v Speaker 3>Beckley and Josh Hogan of Envelope Portio. This is seven Am.

0:17:56.040 --> 0:18:05.560
<v Speaker 3>I'm Ashlin McGhee. Thanks for listening.

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<v Speaker 4>U