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Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for downloading your show. This is better than yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Useful tools and useful conversations to help make your day

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Speaker 1: to day better than yesterday every week since twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 1: My name's Osha Ginzburg. I'm so glad you're here. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for downloading the show. If this is your first time here, welcome,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being here. If you come here before, hey,

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Speaker 1: welcome back. It's summertime and hopefully you are taking a break.

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Speaker 1: Well today you will be bugas in Australia. This is

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Speaker 1: a public holiday. We're going to get to that part,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't want to leave you with a gay

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Speaker 1: pin chasm in your ear holes, So we're going back

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Speaker 1: through the twelve years or more of incredible episodes to

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Speaker 1: give you something to think about that isn't oh hang on,

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Speaker 1: school's coming back? What day does the traffic turned shit again?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean you don't fit your school shoes?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 3: Oh fuck?

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Speaker 1: It's a public holiday? How am I going to get

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Speaker 1: new shoes between now? Today is January twenty sixth. If

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Speaker 1: you've listened to the show for a while, you'll probably have.

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Speaker 2: An idea about.

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Speaker 1: Where I view and how I view the significance of

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Speaker 1: this day. If there's one thing that I wish for

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty six, it is to popularize the concept that

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Speaker 1: two things can be true at the same time. If

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Speaker 1: you have ever read the incredible Hans Rosling book Factfulness,

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Speaker 1: he has this incredible line things are bad and they're

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Speaker 1: getting better beautiful, and he's got the data to prove it.

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Speaker 1: That's the who hypothesis of the book. It's a fantastic book.

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Speaker 1: Two things can be true at the same time. For example,

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Speaker 1: I believe it is vitally important to celebrate a national identity,

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Speaker 1: the story which binds us together as a community. And

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Speaker 1: the current way that we're celebrating this concept causes not

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Speaker 1: only a great deal of pain but a significant number

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Speaker 1: of people in our country, but a huge amount of

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Speaker 1: division inside our country that is only getting further and

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Speaker 1: further apart.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: I'm not putting forward at all that we shouldn't celebrate

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Speaker 1: who we are as a nation. Far from it. Like

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Speaker 1: I just said, I think it's incredibly important to be

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Speaker 1: proud of who we are, who we've become, and also

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Speaker 1: to recognize where we have come from. We can do

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Speaker 1: that in a way that unites us all the current

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Speaker 1: way we're doing that doesn't really do the job. So

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Speaker 1: what kind of community do we want for ourselves, for

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Speaker 1: our children? Do we want a community divided along ideological

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Speaker 1: lines so stark we may as well be separate communities,

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Speaker 1: maybe even separate countries. You've seen it happen. It's happening

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Speaker 1: right now in the United States. It's terrifying. Do we

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Speaker 1: want that? Or do we want a community that is

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Speaker 1: at the foundational level, bound and united by values which

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Speaker 1: we consider the core of our national identity, and we

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Speaker 1: share them and we all believe them, and the ideological

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Speaker 1: lines extend from there, and the ideological lines are different

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Speaker 1: directions to put those values into action in our day

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Speaker 1: to day lives. For a bit of context on this

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Speaker 1: today we are revisiting a conversation with one of my

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Speaker 1: easily favorite people in the world, the incredible Stan Grant.

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Speaker 1: Stan has been and I'm incredibly grateful. Stan has been

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Speaker 1: on the show a few times, and each time you

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Speaker 1: speak with Stan, it's like he just casually reveals an

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Speaker 1: entirely new wing of the library in his brain as

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Speaker 1: he uses a fire hose of insight and empathy to

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Speaker 1: douse any flames caused by cultural bullshit. I saw him

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Speaker 1: fleetingly the other week at the Blue Mountains Writers Festival.

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Speaker 1: I was moving towards my session, which was in a

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Speaker 1: very small room. He was moving towards his session, which

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Speaker 1: is a very big room. Stan and Ive got a

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Speaker 1: quick hug with him, about seven seconds with him, and

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Speaker 1: I was walking on air for the rest of the day.

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Speaker 1: If there's one thing I could wish for you is

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Speaker 1: that at some point, if you have the chance to

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Speaker 1: engage with Stan in conversation, hopefully today is next best.

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Speaker 1: Stan is a titan of thought and considered opinion. And

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Speaker 1: while he and I do differ on some things. For example,

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Speaker 1: he's very much a god guy and I am not.

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Speaker 1: But if I've learned anything from my time in sobriety communities,

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Speaker 1: which is nearly sixteen years now, it is to be

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Speaker 1: quick to see where religious people are right, and that

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Speaker 1: there is a similar level of humility and serenity that

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Speaker 1: I recognize in people who are centered in a religious

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Speaker 1: faith to that which I have seen and experienced in

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Speaker 1: a secular way as a part of a twelve step

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Speaker 1: sobriety program. Now, I'm not here to say one is

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Speaker 1: better than the other. However, you get there is fine

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Speaker 1: with me, but I would say it's what you do

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Speaker 1: with that matters. If you use that as a justification

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Speaker 1: to treat other people poorly, then that's not cool with

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Speaker 1: me in either context. And Stan is not one of

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Speaker 1: those people. I don't guarantee you that he's the antithesis

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Speaker 1: of it, of anything. If you want the full version

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Speaker 1: of this chat, I thoroughly recommend it, scroll back to

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Speaker 1: episode two hundred and eighty five of the show. And

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Speaker 1: then we recorded this at a time when Stan had

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Speaker 1: yet to be bullied and hounded and harassed away from

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Speaker 1: his decades long and lorded Korea as an incredible journalist.

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Speaker 1: But Stan is so much more than that. He is

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Speaker 1: a proud worradery man. He's a prolific author, and you're

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Speaker 1: about to hear that he is one of the most

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Speaker 1: thought provoking people that you'll ever get a chance to

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Speaker 1: listen to. Speaking. So today, on the twenty sixth of January,

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Speaker 1: a day when I consider how proud, intensely proud I

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Speaker 1: am as my identity as an Australian. I'm so proud

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Speaker 1: of this country. I became an Australian. I chose to

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Speaker 1: become one. I wasn't born here. I'm so proud of

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Speaker 1: my identity as an Australian and means so on this day,

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Speaker 1: on the twenty sixty January, let's open the batting talking

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Speaker 1: about identity. It's such a powerful force in the way

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Speaker 1: it shapes our lives, but it's also something that can

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Speaker 1: divide us, particularly when that identity is used to cause

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Speaker 1: division by outside forces. It's the first tool any strongman

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Speaker 1: politician uses when trying to gain momentum. Now we're in

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Speaker 1: this mess because of those scapegoats over there. They don't

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Speaker 1: believe in an Australia like ordinary, saying normal Australians like

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Speaker 1: you and I do. They want to change everything about

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Speaker 1: what makes us great. If they win, everything you know

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Speaker 1: and love will be gone. The lunatics will have taken

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Speaker 1: over the asylum. It will be a disaster, say goodbye

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Speaker 1: to your country, like fucking hell. It's a powerful tool.

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Speaker 1: It's captivating, it's motivating. It unfortunately plays upon our deepest

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Speaker 1: fears of isolation and being on the outer And I'm

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Speaker 1: not above it. I've been caught up in it myself.

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Speaker 1: And that's where we start today. When I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: tease out withstand a way that we might be able

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Speaker 1: to insulate ourselves from that kind of messaging, which, as

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Speaker 1: we've seen in democracies all over the world in recent years,

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Speaker 1: is leading to incredibly damaging and dangerous situations. You started

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Speaker 1: this chat saying that you're reluctant to use the word

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Speaker 1: hope or to believe in hope. But I think what

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Speaker 1: you really hit the nail on the head here. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to lae like You're not going to

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Speaker 1: read a stand Grant book and skip through the streets

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Speaker 1: going everything's awesome. You're just going to get you. You're

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Speaker 1: getting your face held up to light, and that's an

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Speaker 1: important thing. I think it's important that we recognize that

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Speaker 1: and be okay with the discomfort of the reality of

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Speaker 1: our existence is also pain. It's not always universal health

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Speaker 1: care and rising bopity prices, you know, depending on what

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Speaker 1: side of the mortgage. You're wrong. But stand from me

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Speaker 1: what you talked about earlier of if we have that

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Speaker 1: connection you just touched on it again, then we have

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Speaker 1: that connection with each other. If we share a personal

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Speaker 1: connection with each other, we find each other connecting. We

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Speaker 1: take away the power from the strong man. We take

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Speaker 1: away the power from the lure to be pulled into

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Speaker 1: this identity, and that's something that's all within every one

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Speaker 1: of us, which in now our control. I can't decide

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Speaker 1: what Jijiingpng's on hundred year plan is. I can't do

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Speaker 1: anything to influence China. But I can talk to a

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Speaker 1: stranger on the street, and I can change my absolute

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Speaker 1: reality of my world by speaking with people and connecting

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Speaker 1: with human beings around me.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's trying to hold on to what

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Speaker 2: that truth is. Asher too, is because identity can be

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Speaker 2: presented as so virtuous, and sometimes it is, you know,

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Speaker 2: that thing that binds us together. Black Lives Matter is

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Speaker 2: a virtuous movement, but even within that, I recognize that

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Speaker 2: it can carry its own tyranny. That within that, inevitably

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Speaker 2: you end up in a situation where someone says, okay,

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Speaker 2: so what is blackness and who defines who black is?

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Speaker 2: And if you disagree with this, are you out of

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Speaker 2: the are you no longer belonging here? Despotism can hide

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Speaker 2: within even the most apparently liberating movements, and we should

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Speaker 2: always be alert and aware of that. An identity can

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Speaker 2: appear to be and can often be in itself an

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Speaker 2: incredibly virtuous thing, and even an angry white appellation out

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Speaker 2: of former factory worker voting for Donald Trump would say,

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Speaker 2: this is virtuous. This man's going to speak for me

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Speaker 2: because Washington is my enemy and I want to drain

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Speaker 2: the swamp. And yet we know how easily that person's

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Speaker 2: pain can be co opted into a horrible white supremacy.

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Speaker 2: So we must be vigilant all the time about where

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Speaker 2: tyranny lurks and hides and its ability to even infest

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Speaker 2: the most virtuous movements. So again to come back to Camu,

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Speaker 2: who's endlessly pable. But you know he said, every cry

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Speaker 2: for justice can be an invitation to hate. Even in

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Speaker 2: those moments of justice, you may be dividing yourselves from

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Speaker 2: other people and breeding a hatred.

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Speaker 1: Listening to that stands reflections really do make me stop

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Speaker 1: and think. And I've heard them before, but I still

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Speaker 1: it's good to listen to them again because he really

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Speaker 1: challenges us to look critically at the movements and the

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Speaker 1: ideologies that we align ourselves with. A CrossFit so much

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Speaker 1: better than the forty five or whatever. I haven't eaten

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Speaker 1: meat in over twenty three years, right, and vegans got

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Speaker 1: a lot to answer for when it comes to this

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Speaker 1: kind of shit. But it really challenges to look critically

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Speaker 1: at the movements and ideologies that we can align ourselves with,

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Speaker 1: and to recognize that even the most virtuous causes can

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Speaker 1: carry risks. This podcast has been running twelve years, as

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Speaker 1: I've said, and going back through the transcripts, as I

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Speaker 1: mentioned before, there's absolutely moments that I can identify what

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Speaker 1: I have been captured by ideas like this, But these

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Speaker 1: days I know better, so I try to do better.

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Speaker 1: It's a reminder to stay vigilant, stay open minded, and

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Speaker 1: just not question everything, but just to go, hang on

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Speaker 1: a second, let me just double check on this. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you've never read a Stan Grant book, I would

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Speaker 1: thoroughly recommend it, because if you've ever had the good

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Speaker 1: fortune to have walked through a park in the Northern

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Speaker 1: Hemisphere where there's deciduous trees, that's what stands writing is

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Speaker 1: like his ability to write is like walking through one

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Speaker 1: of those parks. But the park is on time lapse,

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Speaker 1: like in a nature documentary where it covers a whole

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Speaker 1: year in the space of twenty seconds. Right, So you

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Speaker 1: start a paragraph at one entrance to the park where

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Speaker 1: the trees are bright and green and full of life,

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Speaker 1: the life that summer brings. And then you watch them

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Speaker 1: change colors, wilt, and by the middle sentences the leaves

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Speaker 1: have fallen. You're looking at trees that you might as

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Speaker 1: well believe in dead. There's no sign of life at all.

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Speaker 1: And as you head up the hill to the other exit,

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Speaker 1: out the other other side of the park, there's.

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Speaker 3: This explosion of buds and blossoms and the promise of

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Speaker 3: hope that even the winter that you've just all suffered

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Speaker 3: through has been so bad, that life will go on

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Speaker 3: and it can be okay if we make good choices.

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Speaker 1: And he can do that in three sentences, he is astounding.

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Speaker 1: He's a remarkable storyteller, and his thoughts on the power

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Speaker 1: of storytelling and the way that they shape our understanding

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Speaker 1: of humanity is really important. How stories have an incredible

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Speaker 1: ability to change the way that we see the world,

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Speaker 1: change where we see ourselves, and how storytelling can help

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Speaker 1: us understand justice but also foster empathy for others that

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Speaker 1: may not be as ideologically aligned to us as we think.

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Speaker 2: We must always be vigilant and look at the identity movements,

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Speaker 2: even when they appear to be dressed in the sort

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Speaker 2: of cloak of justice that they can also be carrying

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Speaker 2: deep inside their own tyranny.

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Speaker 1: Stan, I'm so happy to hear. Earlier in the conversation

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Speaker 1: you talked about the routine that you keep, the discipline

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Speaker 1: you have to make sure that you are maintain not

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Speaker 1: only physical health, but mental health. And I'm happy to

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Speaker 1: hear that stand because the world's a better place with

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Speaker 1: you in it. Mate.

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Speaker 2: We'll try to do our bids, and it's a better

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Speaker 2: place for you too much, because for you, you're in it,

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Speaker 2: and you know these conversations, that beautiful story you told

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Speaker 2: about going to the rock pool with your son, I

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Speaker 2: mean this is you know, it's a better place because

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Speaker 2: you're in it. It's a better place for these conversations,

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Speaker 2: and this is where it starts.

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Speaker 1: You're a good man, stand Grant. I could do a

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Speaker 1: fifteen part TV series with you, but you know that's

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Speaker 1: for another pitch. You're the best ever, mate. I can't

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Speaker 1: thank you enough for taking time to do this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, brother.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to see how the tens of thousands of

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Speaker 1: years of storytelling traditions in the indigenous Australian culture have

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Speaker 1: rooted themselves in the way that Stan sees the world

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Speaker 1: and stands. Reflection on the power of storytelling really remind

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Speaker 1: me of why I love doing this podcast because stories

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Speaker 1: they really did. That's the only reason that any of

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Speaker 1: us do anything. It's because someone told us a story

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Speaker 1: that gave us an idea of like I wouldn't mind

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Speaker 1: that story. And stories have the power to change, challenge assumptions,

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Speaker 1: to inspire change, to foster empathy in a place that

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Speaker 1: otherwise would never exist. And look, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be crass and I don't want to crow bar this,

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Speaker 1: but its storytelling is something I studied when I was

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Speaker 1: over in the States, and it's something I love to do.

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Speaker 1: It's why I produce this Story to Club show every

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Speaker 1: single month, and all the stories are up on YouTube

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Speaker 1: right now. I'm putting a new one up every week.

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Speaker 1: The new live shows come back in February. Tickets are

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Speaker 1: in the show notes a line up there as well.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, storytelling is so wonderful, and the stories that

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Speaker 1: are on story Club, there's always something deep at the

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Speaker 1: core of them that you know while you're snort laughing

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Speaker 1: and you know, laughing at some of the darkest and

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Speaker 1: dirtiest things you've ever heard They'll change your mind, and

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Speaker 1: it's beautiful. I've had nights at story Club. We've had

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Speaker 1: one woman sitting up there talking about what it's like

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Speaker 1: to put her incredible career on hold while she's getting

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Speaker 1: vomited and shouted on by her newborn. And then, you know,

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Speaker 1: two or three stories later, another woman up there talking

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Speaker 1: about the choice that she made when she was at

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Speaker 1: university to terminate a pregnancy. And on the same night

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Speaker 1: we had those things. And it's such a beautiful thing

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Speaker 1: that we can do that because there's humor involved as well,

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Speaker 1: and that allows those ideas to kind of get into

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Speaker 1: your brain and circumvent biases that you may or may

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Speaker 1: not have. I'm going on a little bit, but I

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Speaker 1: do have to take a break. We are going to

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Speaker 1: come back with standard just a moment. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: if there's anyone that's got hope, anyone that's got resilience

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Speaker 1: in the face of adversity at Stan Grant, and he's

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Speaker 1: got a couple of fabulous things to say about that.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us. Thanks for listening to the show today.

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Speaker 1: We're just looking back on Stan Grant on the twenty

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Speaker 1: sixth of January. Since the time we recorded this, Stan

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Speaker 1: has been through an enormous amount of turmoil. In my opinion,

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Speaker 1: we'll look back and see what we as a community

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Speaker 1: did to Stan Grant and his career in a public,

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Speaker 1: public way, look at that in the same lens and

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Speaker 1: carry the same amount of shame with us that we

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Speaker 1: did around while we did to Adam Goods, the greatest

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Speaker 1: AFL player to ever strap on boots and run onto

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Speaker 1: a field. And since I've been in touch with Staner

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Speaker 1: I first met him when he interviewed me about my

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Speaker 1: book in twenty eighteen, and I've been in touch with

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Speaker 1: him on text since then, and I text him every

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Speaker 1: now and again. When I read something he's written, we

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Speaker 1: righte back and forth. And when I do text him,

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Speaker 1: there's still hope in him, and there's an immense amount

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Speaker 1: of resilience in him. And hope and resilience are essential

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Speaker 1: to get through this life that we all live. But

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Speaker 1: how do we hold onto them when it feels overwhelming,

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Speaker 1: When you're literally getting bullied out of your job on

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Speaker 1: the national broadcaster. It's the last part I want to

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Speaker 1: play you. Stan shares his thoughts on fighting for a

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Speaker 1: better future and why it matters to have hope at

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Speaker 1: the core of that.

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Speaker 4: I hope so, but I told you we have to

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Speaker 4: fight for it. You know, we really have to fight

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Speaker 4: for freedom matters. Democracy matters. It has its faults, undoubtedly,

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Speaker 4: it can so easily be corrupted, but it matters.

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Speaker 2: And if we choose.

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Speaker 4: To live in a world where we recognize the rights

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Speaker 4: of individuals, when we live in a world of universal humanity,

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Speaker 4: we need to fight for that idea. And that's under threat.

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Speaker 4: It's under threat from rising authoritarianism and sectarianism and nationalism

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Speaker 4: and tribalism and all the things that want to separate

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Speaker 4: us off and divide us up and put us against

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Speaker 4: each other. And it's under threat because of a new

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Speaker 4: technology that could supersede us. We don't hold onto the

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Speaker 4: world without a fight. So it's going to be your

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Speaker 4: child's battle. You know, we'll have done our bit.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're a bit older than me, but you

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Speaker 1: seem to still be fighting man. So I've got a

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Speaker 1: couple of years left to me. Yet you don't accidentally

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Speaker 1: have a feel full of wheat to harvest so that

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Speaker 1: you have food for the winter. Survival takes work. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's to fight. Sometimes we do have to fight for

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Speaker 1: the freedom and the democracy and the values that we

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Speaker 1: hold dear, because I guarantee there's people who vote very

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Speaker 1: differently to you. They have the same values as you do,

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Speaker 1: all right, And it's important to find the connection there

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Speaker 1: because we are really we're all just one giant blob

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Speaker 1: of every single molecule on our body was made at

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Speaker 1: the same time at the Big bang. Man and we're

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Speaker 1: all just bits about him is all clogged together and

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Speaker 1: you're contemplating each other. It makes no sense that we fight,

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Speaker 1: but we do. But what Stan was talking about there

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Speaker 1: is a real reminder that resilience and hope are not passive.

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Speaker 1: They are active choices that we make every day, and

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Speaker 1: it's inspiring to hear that from him, even when the

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Speaker 1: challenges seem insurmountable. The full conversation you can find on

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Speaker 1: episode two hundred and eighty five, just scroll back in there.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the most thought pul broking chats I've

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Speaker 1: ever had, and I love his thoughts about identity and

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Speaker 1: storytelling and hope. He's an incredible dude. Whatever you're doing today,

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Speaker 1: I hope you have a good one, and I hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoy it. And I hope you have a wonderful

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Speaker 1: time in this country that I'm sure you and I

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Speaker 1: love just as much, perhaps in different ways, but we're

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Speaker 1: all here and it's lovely. I'm glad to be here

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Speaker 1: with you. See in a couple of days