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Speaker 1: My next guess area of expertise is the link between

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Speaker 1: social media and anxiety, with fear of missing out as

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Speaker 1: the driver for kids in being on social media. This

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Speaker 1: is all part of the Social Media summ at Day

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Speaker 1: two in Adelaide today at the convention Center. Doctor Danni

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Speaker 1: El Einstein is a junk Fellow at the School of

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Speaker 1: Psychological Services Macquarie UNI and a clinical psychologist. To boot Danny,

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Speaker 1: you're good morning, Good morning math. You so what needs

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Speaker 1: to change? What should the governments be doing? The state

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Speaker 1: governments of New South Wales and essay.

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Speaker 2: We need to we need to introduce in the legislation

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Speaker 2: that increases that age of use to sixteen, which really

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Speaker 2: just means asking the social media companies to take responsibility

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Speaker 2: for any harm that's caused, any physical or mental harm

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Speaker 2: that's caused from social media use.

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Speaker 1: Okay, increasing it to sixteen, won't the content then change,

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Speaker 1: The algorithm will change, They'll seem arguably more harmful things.

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Speaker 2: If we increase that to sixteen. What it means is

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Speaker 2: that social media new companies need to think really hard

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Speaker 2: about the way that they're playing the game and the

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Speaker 2: way that they're attracting attention from everybody. But mostly obviously

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Speaker 2: from under sixteen. So I think what it means is

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Speaker 2: that they'll just have to really take our concerns seriously.

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Speaker 2: And we've got lots of concerns. One is about the

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Speaker 2: cyberbullying that you're seeing, and that partly comes from FOMO

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Speaker 2: and just from the fact that when you're say between

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Speaker 2: thirteen and sixteen, and in the first few years of school,

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Speaker 2: of seeing your school and you're still settling in, you're

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Speaker 2: still developing your social skills, you're still working out. You know,

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Speaker 2: children are still mean to each other. It's normal to

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Speaker 2: have a little bit of mean that's come out in

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Speaker 2: a group conversations. And what you see at the moment

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Speaker 2: in schools is that is that people are unhappy to

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Speaker 2: go to school, or that they feel that the actual

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Speaker 2: school environment is being affected, which then affects their ability

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Speaker 2: to feel happy and learn at school. And then the

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Speaker 2: solutions that people are turning to is to use social

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Speaker 2: media to reach out to people outside of school.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so that points to a whole range

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Speaker 1: of them. Should schools be doing more then, should schools

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Speaker 1: be educating children about the dangers more than they already are?

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Speaker 2: No, they already are. They schools are doing everything they can,

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Speaker 2: and you look at the school programs they are putting

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Speaker 2: so many initiatives in, but education can't catch the fundamental

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Speaker 2: psychological drivers that are behind the reasons that we use

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Speaker 2: social media. Okay, So we use it because it's going

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Speaker 2: to get us closer to our goals. If that's to

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Speaker 2: have more friends. I can get more friends by posting

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Speaker 2: more right, and then if my friends, I want to

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Speaker 2: see whether my friends like the post or not. I

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Speaker 2: want to see if I've got an audience that helps me.

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Speaker 2: If social media helps you get to your goals, but

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Speaker 2: it also makes them very very preoptic paints because all

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Speaker 2: that information keeps coming back at you. But it also

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Speaker 2: shows you what everyone else is doing, which at times

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Speaker 2: face it looks fantastic, and so you can feel the

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Speaker 2: pain of that. And then that's envy, and that's the

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Speaker 2: fear of missing out, and these things or contribute towards

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Speaker 2: anxiety and depression and towards too much use, which then

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Speaker 2: affects your brain.

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Speaker 1: Okay, raising the age to sixteen, we already know the

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Speaker 1: limit of thirteen. There are kids a lot younger than

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Speaker 1: that on it. They've gotten on it because their parents

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Speaker 1: have clearly approved it, signed on for them, whatever the

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Speaker 1: case may be, allowed them to join. Is that an issue?

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Speaker 1: I mean, if the age of sixteen, won't parents be

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Speaker 1: doing exactly the same well parents?

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Speaker 2: I think the problem at the moment is that parents

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Speaker 2: are not aware of the harms like parents don't understand it.

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Speaker 2: Many of the time, parents don't understand what's happening either.

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Speaker 2: They're not aware of the researchers coming out of that

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Speaker 2: brain development and how brains are being changed and not

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Speaker 2: in a good way at all. They don't. They also

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Speaker 2: have phios for their children. They want their children to

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Speaker 2: be social, and if social means at the moment, social

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Speaker 2: media use, which is what it does mean, because at

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Speaker 2: the moment, if you're not on social media, you don't

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Speaker 2: know what's happening. You won't get invited to things. It's

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Speaker 2: very hard to live as a thirteen year old and

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Speaker 2: not be on social media or fourteen or fifteen. Whereas

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Speaker 2: if you change the norm all of a sudden, it's

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Speaker 2: no longer a necessity to be social.

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Speaker 1: All right, and do the traditional things. Instead that kids

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Speaker 1: get out there and play and make friends in real life, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And develop your confidence and develop also the other thing

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Speaker 2: to think about is your ability to handle hard things

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Speaker 2: when they happen in front of you, so you know,

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Speaker 2: by the time they're sixteen, you're wanting to get them

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Speaker 2: ready to be able to sit exams. And when you

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Speaker 2: sit an exam, you haven't got something like you can't

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Speaker 2: reach out to someone straight away to say what do

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Speaker 2: I do here? We need to have that enough resilience

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Speaker 2: and resourcefulness and know how to stay calm situation without

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Speaker 2: having to reach out to other people.

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Speaker 1: It's no good. That's been just an essay. New South

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Speaker 1: Wales initiative though, is that it needs to be done

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Speaker 1: around the country. The federal government should probably step in

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Speaker 1: here and take the lead.

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Speaker 2: Frankly, oh absolutely, although South Australia is fantastic at having

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Speaker 2: taken the first initiative, like really you should be very

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Speaker 2: proud here, but we need it to be federal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, all right. Are the other states showing signs

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Speaker 1: of joining into this.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've got to watch what happens this week. I

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Speaker 2: think I feel let's see, but I think it's really

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Speaker 2: important for parents and educated teachers know, the schools know.

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Speaker 2: If you read the joint submission to the Select Committee

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Speaker 2: for Australian society that looks at social media use. You'll

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Speaker 2: see schools are saying that staff are spending too much

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Speaker 2: time dealing with cyberbullying, which happens out of school, but

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Speaker 2: because it's between school children, they have to deal with

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Speaker 2: it in school hours, so it adds pressure to them

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Speaker 2: as well. And we've seen these were saying the suicide

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Speaker 2: we're seeing, you know, we're seeing very sad situations and

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Speaker 2: children who really, quite frankly, they shouldn't have to deal

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Speaker 2: with this level of meanness and nastiness that can happen.

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Speaker 2: Just it's not always intentional. It's just that they don't

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Speaker 2: have yet the social maturity to work out how to

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Speaker 2: be nice all the time. And it's just a really

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Speaker 2: powerful way of spreading information or negative images about people

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Speaker 2: and undermining a social environment. And we need to recognize that.

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Speaker 1: This goes back a long way though, doesn't it. Because

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Speaker 1: you only have to go out to a cafe where

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Speaker 1: there's perhaps somebody with a young child as in one

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Speaker 1: two year old, and they're having the adult conversations the parents.

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Speaker 1: The children are on their devices, you know, just to

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Speaker 1: keep them quiet. They're watching Bluey or whatever it might be.

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Speaker 1: That's where it all starts, and trying to take it

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Speaker 1: off their hands at eight twelve, whatever, under sixteen. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the pattern is there. You are taking candy away from

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Speaker 1: a baby no matter what age, because these things are

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Speaker 1: so compelling and addictive.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're absolutely right, and so we needed education across

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Speaker 2: the board, and we do need it to reach to

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Speaker 2: parents when children even younger. We've actually written a book,

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Speaker 2: it was just released it it's called Raising Anxiety, and

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Speaker 2: I encourage people to have a look at it. It

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Speaker 2: just explains how all these things we think we're doing

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Speaker 2: that are helpful are not helpful, and it gives parents

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Speaker 2: this tools to make changes, every day changes. So I

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Speaker 2: encourage people to look that up. Raising anxiety is the

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Speaker 2: name of it, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, Danielle, appreciate your time.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Matthew.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Daniel Einstein, a junk Fellow, School of Psychological Sciences,

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Speaker 1: Macquarie UNI and a clinical psychologist. On the Social Media

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Speaker 1: summit that is happening in Adelaide today, Day two