WEBVTT - Richard Flanagan on the 'ludicrous' deal derailing Tasmanian politics

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM.

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<v Speaker 1>When Tasmanian Premier Jeremy Rockcliffe struck a deal with the

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<v Speaker 1>AFL to build a brand new stadium in Hobart's historic center,

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<v Speaker 1>it was a decision made without Cabinet, Treasury or parliamentary backing.

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<v Speaker 1>It's that stadium that's kicked off a messy fight over

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<v Speaker 1>who will lead Tasmania. It's now been over a week

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<v Speaker 1>since the election that delivered a hung parliament and neither

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<v Speaker 1>the Liberal leader or Labor leader have managed to form government. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>author Richard Flanagan on the political crisis in his home

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<v Speaker 1>state of Tasmania and why it's a warning for the

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<v Speaker 1>rest of the country. It's Tuesday, July twenty nine, So Richard,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome to seven AM. Thank you for coming on the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me. Raby.

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<v Speaker 1>As we speak, it's been just over a week since

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<v Speaker 1>the Tasmanian election, in which neither party gained enough votes

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<v Speaker 1>to govern. The cross bench may well decide who ends

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<v Speaker 1>up leading the state. So tell me this election, what

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<v Speaker 1>would you say it was all about?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's all about an old order crumbling,

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<v Speaker 2>but refusing to accept what politics in the twenty first

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<v Speaker 2>century is going to look like and rather than it

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<v Speaker 2>being a mess, I think it's a harbinger of what's

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<v Speaker 2>coming not just to our island here but to Australia.

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<v Speaker 3>Tasmonia's fourth election in just seven years has delivered another

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<v Speaker 3>hung parliament. The Liberals have again won the most seats,

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<v Speaker 3>but falling shy of a majority, will be forced to

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<v Speaker 3>negotiate with a largely progressive cross bench to try to

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<v Speaker 3>form government.

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<v Speaker 2>A bit over a third vote for the Liberal Party,

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<v Speaker 2>a third voted for the cross Bench and about a

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<v Speaker 2>court voted for the ALP and so the dilemma here

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<v Speaker 2>is that neither the Liberal Party nor Labor Party except

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<v Speaker 2>that a large sway that Tasmania doesn't agree or endorse

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<v Speaker 2>their policies and is extremely discontented with what they're doing.

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<v Speaker 4>The proposed Macquari Points Stadium has been a contentious topic

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<v Speaker 4>in this election. The major parties are supportive of the plan,

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<v Speaker 4>which would pave the way for a Tasmania based AFL team.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a lot of discuss with the Liberal Party

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<v Speaker 2>and there's a lot of disillusion. That's to do with

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that budget now is in crisis in a way,

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<v Speaker 2>it just isn't anywhere else in Australia. It's now got

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<v Speaker 2>a thirteen billion dollar debt by twenty twenty eight, which

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<v Speaker 2>when you add the government businesses to it, is a

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<v Speaker 2>further nine billion, So that's a twenty two billion dollar debt.

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<v Speaker 2>And the Treasury released a document mid election which said

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<v Speaker 2>to address this, you would have to raise taxation by

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred and fifty percent, or reduce services by twenty

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<v Speaker 2>five percent, or sack twenty thousand public servants.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, So in that context, and let's talk a

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<v Speaker 1>bit more about the stadium deal that Jeremy Rockcliffe made

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of years ago with the AFL. Under the deal,

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<v Speaker 1>Tasmania would build this new stadium and in return they

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<v Speaker 1>would get to enter the league. So these are the

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<v Speaker 1>terms that the ALFOL wanted and got right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, Rockcliffe. I mean it was the deal of

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<v Speaker 2>the century as far as the AFL goes, because they

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<v Speaker 2>got a blank check for a stadium, They specified where

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<v Speaker 2>the stadium would go, what type of stadium, it would

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<v Speaker 2>be a deadline for when it would be built. And

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<v Speaker 2>not only that, if it's not built, I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>by twenty twenty eight. The state has to pay a

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<v Speaker 2>fine every year. It's not built of several million dollars.

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<v Speaker 5>When Premier Jeremy Rockcliffe or the AFL tells Tasmanians that

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<v Speaker 5>there's nine team without a stadium, I say that's rubbish,

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<v Speaker 5>poor performance. I've been told by Business Leans that this

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<v Speaker 5>was the worst deal they have ever seen. The Tasmanian government.

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<v Speaker 2>Doing this idea that a mainland corporation can come in

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<v Speaker 2>and just demand that the taxpayer here build their stadium

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<v Speaker 2>stagus people, particularly when we already have two stadia which

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<v Speaker 2>are routinely used for AFL games here and have been

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<v Speaker 2>for the last two decades.

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<v Speaker 5>The Douglas Rockcliffe government rollover and sold Tasmanians out and

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<v Speaker 5>your stars as treatss chips. You should be ashamed of yourself, Jeremy,

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<v Speaker 5>you should be as lowly as shame for yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>The AFL made the condition of Tasmania getting its own

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<v Speaker 2>AFL side that it had to build the stadium. But

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<v Speaker 2>Tasmania is actually giving over a quarter of a million

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<v Speaker 2>dollars to that AFL team. It is the most generous

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<v Speaker 2>state sponsorship of any sporting team in Australian history by

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<v Speaker 2>the poorest state at a moment in its history when

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<v Speaker 2>it's teaching on bankruptcy. This is a stadium Tasmanian's never

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<v Speaker 2>wanted and had consistently opposed. It's always sixty to seventy

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<v Speaker 2>percent of Tasmanians when they poled, say they don't want it,

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<v Speaker 2>which the Premier nevertheless is hugely committed to.

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<v Speaker 1>So why do you think the Tasmanian government agreed to

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<v Speaker 1>those terms?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's a good question. I think the Tasmanian government

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<v Speaker 2>didn't really agree. Premier Rockcliffe signed the contract without reference

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<v Speaker 2>to his party room, his cabinet, his treasurer or the treasury,

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<v Speaker 2>and having signed it, he's been desperately backfelling ever since,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to justify and as time goes by, the ever

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<v Speaker 2>more ludicrous nature of the proposal becomes apparent. Nevertheless, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>people are united behind the team, but they are not

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<v Speaker 2>united behind the stadium.

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<v Speaker 1>After the break, will the stadium deal die? Richard? We've

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<v Speaker 1>spoken about the stadium deal itself, the cost of it,

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that many Tasmanians don't support it. But if

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<v Speaker 1>it were to go ahead, where would this stadium actually be.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the AFL insisted it go in the heart of

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<v Speaker 2>colonial Hobart down on the wharf. This creates several problems.

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<v Speaker 2>The first is just that it is completely impossible to service.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't service it with public transport, you can't adequately

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<v Speaker 2>get cars in the way the arterial road system works

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<v Speaker 2>into in and out of Hobar. It's going to create

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<v Speaker 2>absolute traffic chaos because of the appalling nature of governance

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<v Speaker 2>in Tasmania. We have the least expenditure per capita on

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<v Speaker 2>public transport of any state in Australia. And we've been

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<v Speaker 2>been report showing with the most car centric city and

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<v Speaker 2>yet so people will have to to the games by car.

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<v Speaker 2>There's nowhere even for them to park their cars. And

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<v Speaker 2>then on top of that, it sits next to the Senator,

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<v Speaker 2>the equivalent of Melbourne Shrine of Remembrance. This is a

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<v Speaker 2>prominent spot in Hobart's topography, on a point overlooking both

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<v Speaker 2>the river and the city. There was a plan to

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<v Speaker 2>build housing and so on on the site and the

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<v Speaker 2>first Indigenous memorial park in Australia dedicated to the frontier walls.

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<v Speaker 2>This was a very powerful idea that resonated with Tasmanian people.

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<v Speaker 2>Was very popular. The AFL, which claims to care about

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<v Speaker 2>indigenous culture rolled over that straight away. They haven't cared

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<v Speaker 2>less about it. In fact, the indigenous people who worked

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<v Speaker 2>on it, the first they knew about it was hearing

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<v Speaker 2>it on the TV news and the radio news. So

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<v Speaker 2>all these things were recognized in planning around the city

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<v Speaker 2>and future planning. All of them were utterly ignored by

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<v Speaker 2>the AFL and then by the government.

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<v Speaker 1>You mentioned some of the challenges that Tasmania faces. Can

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<v Speaker 1>we talk a little bit more about that, about about

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<v Speaker 1>what you think that the money that Tasmania does have

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<v Speaker 1>should be spent on and its political will I suppose,

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<v Speaker 1>but it should be directed.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the real problem for Tasmania is that its

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<v Speaker 2>politics are utterly distorted by its resource industries and had

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<v Speaker 2>for a very long time in Tasmania. From colonial times.

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<v Speaker 2>You kept power and you maintained power by the giving

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<v Speaker 2>away your aspects of the natural environment, from the kangaroo

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<v Speaker 2>hunting grounds, of the power of people that you gave

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<v Speaker 2>away to the pastoralss. It's always been about giving away

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<v Speaker 2>forest concessions, mining concessions, water to sand and barrens and

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<v Speaker 2>so on. Forces behind those industries become unduly powerful, and

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<v Speaker 2>that there are two problems with this one is that

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<v Speaker 2>there clearly are dirty deals going down all the time here.

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<v Speaker 2>We're the only state that doesn't have a proper corruption commission.

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<v Speaker 2>But the other problem is is that it destroys the

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<v Speaker 2>necessary contractor democracy needs between its people and its state.

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<v Speaker 2>And people need to believe that the state, generally speaking,

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<v Speaker 2>does what it does in an honest way. Tasmanians don't believe.

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<v Speaker 2>That's how they're stage one. They believe everything is corrupted.

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<v Speaker 2>Now clearly everything isn't corrupted here, but it creates a

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<v Speaker 2>really disaffected, angry and in the sense also disempowered people,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think that's why you see so many people

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<v Speaker 2>leaving the island.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk a little bit about the Greens and the

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<v Speaker 1>independence the new cross Bench. It's largely against the Stadium deal.

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<v Speaker 1>Does it seem to you then that the cross Bench

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<v Speaker 1>be able to convince either major party to give up

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<v Speaker 1>on this deal. Is this something that can actually die?

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<v Speaker 2>So the final makeup of the Parliament won't be known

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<v Speaker 2>until the end of this week, and it's those final

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<v Speaker 2>crossbenches that are still up in the air. But you

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<v Speaker 2>are right, the majority of the cross Bench or opposed

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<v Speaker 2>to the Stadium. The real negotiations will start next week

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<v Speaker 2>and clearly the stadium's going to be a key issue,

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<v Speaker 2>and I guess the question is is whether the Labor

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<v Speaker 2>Party will flip on it or not. The Labor Party

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<v Speaker 2>opposed the stadium up to last election, then immediately after

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<v Speaker 2>it changed to a pro stadium position, which was sort

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<v Speaker 2>of bizarre because it was seen that part of the

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<v Speaker 2>reason for the Liberal Party collapse was their support of

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<v Speaker 2>the stadium. The Labor Party vote this year in the

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<v Speaker 2>election's gone is the lowest in its one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>twenty year history, and this is coming off a very

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<v Speaker 2>good result in the federal election. So it tells you

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<v Speaker 2>a lot about these extreme right wing positions that the

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<v Speaker 2>Labor Party has taken in recent times. So it's a

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<v Speaker 2>conceit on the part of both major parties that the

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<v Speaker 2>growth in the cross bench is a momentary aberration at

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<v Speaker 2>some point will go back to where it's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just holding law forward, but it's just Labor or Liberal.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's never going to go back to that. And

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<v Speaker 2>the people in the twenty first century who will have

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<v Speaker 2>effect and be capable of changing our society, whether it's

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<v Speaker 2>for the better or the worse, will be people who

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<v Speaker 2>are able to pull together coalitions of constantly changing forces,

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<v Speaker 2>micro parties, different individuals. They won't necessarily all be progressive either,

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<v Speaker 2>but they will be the new style of politics. And

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<v Speaker 2>at the moment in Tasmania neither labor nor liberal except

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<v Speaker 2>the legitimacy of this change.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and as you say, we don't know the final

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<v Speaker 1>makeup of the Tasmanian Parliament yet. But should the stadium

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<v Speaker 1>go ahead, what kind of reaction do you expect.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, because of this pattern of powerful corporations pulling the

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<v Speaker 2>streams behind closed doors, there is a very strong grassroots

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<v Speaker 2>political culture. You know, this is the island that gave

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<v Speaker 2>Australia the environment movement, the Green Party. And what you

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<v Speaker 2>will see if the stadium goes ahead is you'll see

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<v Speaker 2>direct action on the stadium side. You'll see homeless people

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<v Speaker 2>chaining themselves to machinery. You'll see health activists chaining themselves

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<v Speaker 2>to machinery. You'll see the state respond as it does

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<v Speaker 2>down here, by imprisoning those people. And then you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to get rage. And if the AFL really wants to

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<v Speaker 2>go to war with the people of Tasmania, well then

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<v Speaker 2>that's where we're heading. If this stadium goes ahead, So

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<v Speaker 2>even if Parliament approves it, it won't be the end

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<v Speaker 2>of the story, but only the beginning of a more

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<v Speaker 2>bitter chapter.

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<v Speaker 1>Richard, thank you so much for your time today.

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<v Speaker 2>Bath thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news today, Ed Husick says Australia should

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<v Speaker 1>recognize a Palestinian state now, saying France's decision to do

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<v Speaker 1>so should be seen as an opportunity. The former cabinet minister,

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<v Speaker 1>who was dumped from the ministry after the election, made

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<v Speaker 1>the comments following the Prime Minister saying over the weekend

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<v Speaker 1>that hurdles must be overcome before recognition is possible. And

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<v Speaker 1>National's leader David little Proud has dismissed suggestions that Barnaby

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<v Speaker 1>Joyce's attempts to scrap net zero is a sign of

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<v Speaker 1>party revolt. Little Proud said that backbenchers have every right

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<v Speaker 1>to bring forward private members' bills following Joys introduction of

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<v Speaker 1>the bill that would get rid of Australia's net zero

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<v Speaker 1>target by twenty fifty. The bill has no prospect of succeeding.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.