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Speaker 1: Welcome to another edition of the podcast where I interview

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Speaker 1: a range of interesting guests on different topics to do

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Speaker 1: with enhancing your mind, your body and your brain. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode is an absolute cracker. Doctor soph is a UK

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Speaker 1: based neuroscientist and clinical psychologist who has just written one

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Speaker 1: of the best books that I happen to have read,

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Speaker 1: all around habits, why we do things, but also how

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Speaker 1: to become unstuck out of behaviors that are not helpful

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Speaker 1: for us or not serving us well. And it is

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Speaker 1: an absolute tour of force around human psychology and I

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Speaker 1: will actually find it really hard to believe that somebody

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Speaker 1: would not walk away with lots of usable, actionable things

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Speaker 1: that they can use to improve their life straight away.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't laugh out lied lots, you need

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Speaker 1: a sense of humor transplant. Before we jump into the podcast,

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Speaker 1: I have a fever to ask from you, my listeners.

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Speaker 1: It is a massive fever in terms of the impact

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Speaker 1: that it will have on the podcast, but a small

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Speaker 1: fever in terms of the impost on your time. And

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Speaker 1: what we know about podcasts is that ratings and from

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Speaker 1: you guys, the listeners, have a huge impact on the

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Speaker 1: growth of the podcast and also the positioning in the

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Speaker 1: charts which then helps with growth. So could I please

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Speaker 1: ask you to at the end of this podcast and

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Speaker 1: just jump onto your fevorite whatever one you're listening from,

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Speaker 1: whether it's app of Podcasts, Spotify or whatever, and then

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Speaker 1: just write a review and ideally it would write a

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Speaker 1: couple of lines on on why you enjoy the podcast,

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Speaker 1: if you do and if you can't be arsed with that,

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Speaker 1: just given us a number of stars and would be

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Speaker 1: a great help. So hopefully you can find the time

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Speaker 1: and to just ge help give the podcast a little nudge.

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Speaker 1: So now let's get on with it. Doctor Sophie More

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: having me, and I believe I have you on a

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Speaker 1: very warm day in lighty Yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Can't believe it. It's one of those days where every

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Speaker 2: other sentence you hear in the streets in the cafes

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Speaker 2: is can you believe how hot it is? I'm so sweaty.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what to do. We're so unused to

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Speaker 2: being this hot and sweaty that it's basically the only

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Speaker 2: topic we can talk about.

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Speaker 1: And tell me how hot has it been in the

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Speaker 1: UK today.

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Speaker 2: A wild thirty degrees, which here is unheard of.

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Speaker 1: You know that all Australians are laughing their ass off

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Speaker 1: right now. Oh my god, it's so hot. It's thirty degrees.

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Speaker 1: I think I reckon the hottest I have ever seen.

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Speaker 1: In Belfast when I lived there was maybe twenty nine.

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Speaker 1: I think we've flirted with thirty degrees once. But if

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Speaker 1: it's and I remember living and particularly Scotland for some reason,

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Speaker 1: was worse. I remember if it was seventeen degrees in

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Speaker 1: sunny everybody had their shirt off and was in the

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Speaker 1: park or in the beer holes or in the beer

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Speaker 1: gardens and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: And had sunburn by the end of the day. It's amazing.

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Speaker 2: You can get sunburn in less than twenty degrees here.

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Speaker 2: It's absolutely extraordinary.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, no, it's crazy. Now you have been called

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Speaker 1: by the Times no less in the UK, the guru

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Speaker 1: of insta therapy. So talk us through that. How did

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Speaker 1: they come to describe you as the guru of inst therapy?

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Speaker 2: Well, one, I think newspapers like a splashy headline, so

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Speaker 2: I think that's how they came up with that. Firstly, Secondly,

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Speaker 2: because in two thousand and eighteen roughly I left my

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Speaker 2: job in the National Health Service, so the British Free

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Speaker 2: Health Service, because I was seeing the same thing time

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Speaker 2: and time again, irrespective of what service I was working in,

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Speaker 2: so it didn't matter if it was neurology, if I

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Speaker 2: was working in physical health, or if I was working

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Speaker 2: in mental health. In my first sessions with people as

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Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist, I was seeing that no one had

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Speaker 2: ever given them the basic psychological knowledge that we could

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Speaker 2: have all been taught in schools, which meant that when

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Speaker 2: they started to struggle, they often misunderstood themselves and then

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Speaker 2: started to panic, thinking something's wrong with me. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to be mad, I'm going to be bad, and then

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Speaker 2: this led to much more distress. That's not the fault

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Speaker 2: of the NHS, but the NHS, that's quite underresourced at

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Speaker 2: the moment, was bearing the brunt of it. So I

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Speaker 2: was like, right, I'm leaving my job and going out

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Speaker 2: into the world, and I'm going to share the psychological

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Speaker 2: knowledge for free, hopefully before people need it so they

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Speaker 2: don't have to reach rock bottom and then sit on

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Speaker 2: a waiting list, with both the hope that I, you know,

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Speaker 2: get the information out to the masses so they didn't struggle,

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Speaker 2: but also take some of the pressure off the NHS.

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Speaker 2: So the time's calling me the group of insta therapy

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Speaker 2: is quite wild and a bit of a stretch, but

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Speaker 2: refers to the fact that I was kind of one

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Speaker 2: of the first people to go on to social media

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Speaker 2: and start sharing information that's usually kept behind therapy room doors.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and a very good way to reach people on mass.

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Speaker 1: And as you say, if you can just prevent people

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Speaker 1: from sliding into that vortex, because it often becomes a

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Speaker 1: vortex right that they go down and dine. Now, so

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Speaker 1: you have a degree in psychology, a master's in neuroscience,

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Speaker 1: and then a PhD in clinical psychology. What got you

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Speaker 1: interested in that area in the first place? Can you

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Speaker 1: remember was it a certain moment, was it a teacher,

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Speaker 1: was it somebody who inspired you? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I remember wildly clearly. I think anyone who's

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Speaker 2: been in this situation will remember this kind of moment.

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Speaker 2: So I actually had never come across psychology. They didn't

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Speaker 2: teach it in school. I was more of a kind

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Speaker 2: of maths and physics girl. I was, you know, like

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Speaker 2: a kind of nerd. I also was pretty wild for

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Speaker 2: a nerd, But I just mean I wasn't introduced to psychology.

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Speaker 2: And then at eighteen, I had this very sudden fall

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Speaker 2: from grace, so you know, this kind of cocky I'm

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Speaker 2: invincible eighteen year old, and I suddenly had my first

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Speaker 2: panic attack. Now, because I didn't know what was going on,

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Speaker 2: I assumed that I was having heart attack. I really thought,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, this is it. I'm going to die.

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Speaker 2: And one of the biggest predictors of having one panic

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Speaker 2: attack and have that turn into multiple panic attacks is

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Speaker 2: if you misinterpreted its a sign of something extremely dangerous,

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Speaker 2: because then obviously you become hyper vigilant, like, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 2: am I going to have that symptom again? Does that

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Speaker 2: mean I'm going to have a heart attack. Once I

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Speaker 2: realized it wasn't a heart attack, well my next thought was, well,

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Speaker 2: it must be in that case that I'm losing my mind.

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Speaker 2: So then the panic tax escalated further and I just

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Speaker 2: didn't really know where to turn. And certainly when I

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Speaker 2: looked in the eyes of my family, they were looking

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Speaker 2: at me like, yes, no, we think you're totally mad too,

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Speaker 2: And they weren't intending to be judgmental. It's just that

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Speaker 2: they didn't know what to say. So I do remember

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Speaker 2: very clearly when it started, and I remember very clearly

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Speaker 2: that when I finally got my hands on the right

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Speaker 2: information and got into the breathing exercises and the psycho

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Speaker 2: education around panic and I started to get my feet

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Speaker 2: back under me, I remember very clearly thinking, I cannot

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Speaker 2: believe this very simple information and these very simple exercises

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Speaker 2: aren't talked to everyone. I can't believe it took me,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I'm not being able to leave home

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Speaker 2: for three months in order to get here, And so

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Speaker 2: I vowed that I was going to learn everything I could,

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Speaker 2: and then I was going to share it as accessibly

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Speaker 2: as I could once I was able to be, you know,

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Speaker 2: educated enough to be able to do that qualified enough education. Now,

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Speaker 2: so I hadn't heard about psychology and I got there

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Speaker 2: because I thought I was going to lose my mind.

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Speaker 2: When I found out I wasn't and that this was

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Speaker 2: a common experience, I thought it was time to do

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Speaker 2: something about it.

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Speaker 1: That's very cool. And now you have written a Sunday

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Speaker 1: Times best seller called A Manual for Being Human, But

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Speaker 1: you have also you're also about to release a second

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Speaker 1: book called unstuck. Five steps to break bad habits and

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Speaker 1: get out of your own way. Now, in that you

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Speaker 1: talk about us functioning on autopilot, So give us a

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Speaker 1: sense of how much of our behaviors are automated and

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Speaker 1: why is that?

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Speaker 2: So it's a scary amount. I'm giving you that as

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Speaker 2: my warning shot because I think when people find out

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Speaker 2: how much of their day they're not paying any attention

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Speaker 2: to what they're doing, it's quite alarming. So consider your

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Speaker 2: self warned, bustiness. But it's it's roughly over forty percent

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Speaker 2: of your day. Yeah, So if you imagine that you're

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Speaker 2: awake for sixteen hours maybe of your day and over

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Speaker 2: forty percent, let's make it just under fifty percent of that, right,

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Speaker 2: So let's say between seven and eight hours of that

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Speaker 2: you have no control over your behavior. You're simply acting

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Speaker 2: as if you're kind of a train on train tracks,

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Speaker 2: just repeating the same automated patterns. That's quite scary. Imagine

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Speaker 2: sleepwalking through forty to fifty percent of your life. That's

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Speaker 2: not something I want to do. And I think the

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Speaker 2: thing that makes it particularly concerning or interesting maybe is

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Speaker 2: that our habits, the part of the reason we're not

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Speaker 2: aware about them. Isn't just because they're automatic or unconscious.

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Speaker 2: Is because we often think we're choosing them. So let's

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Speaker 2: say you wake up in the morning, you think, well,

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Speaker 2: I'd really love a cup of coffee. You think I've

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Speaker 2: chosen to have this cup of coffee. You think that

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Speaker 2: was the decision you made, But actually you woke up

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Speaker 2: in the morning and the first queue of for example,

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Speaker 2: turning your alarm clock off, the first internal queue of tiredness, right,

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Speaker 2: or the first clue of thinking I'm going to get

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Speaker 2: out of bed, that triggered the craving for coffee, which

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Speaker 2: triggered the automatic behavior of going to get it, and

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Speaker 2: then the reward of drinking it stopped the habit loop.

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Speaker 2: So it's a large amount of time. We often believe

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Speaker 2: we're choosing the things that we are not choosing, and

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Speaker 2: there's a very good reason we do it. But unless

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Speaker 2: we get aware and back in the driver's seat of

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Speaker 2: our life, we might miss a lot of it. So

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Speaker 2: I feel like there was a second question.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it was really about why. So now we can

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Speaker 1: dig into the process of habit formation, you know, the

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Speaker 1: amazing amount of stuff that comes at our brains and

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Speaker 1: why it wants to have shortcuts. So educator our listeners

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Speaker 1: on that a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's an idea that without habits we would only

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Speaker 2: get one or two things done per day, which is

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Speaker 2: just so wild unacceptable to think about. Now, you know,

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Speaker 2: we almost bathe our identity on our productivity. So habits

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Speaker 2: ensure that you are able to act out multiple skills

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Speaker 2: at the same time without giving it that much brain energy.

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Speaker 2: So if you remember when you first can you drive

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Speaker 2: a car? I can, Okay, when you first got in

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Speaker 2: that car. Do you remember your first lesson or any

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Speaker 2: of them where you were told So you're going to

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Speaker 2: reach for the stick, You're going to have your hands

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Speaker 2: on the driving wheel. You're also going to be going forward.

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Speaker 2: You're also going to be looking for people in case

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Speaker 2: they step out into the street, and you're going to

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Speaker 2: be looking for signs, and you're going to be looking

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Speaker 2: for traffic lights. You were conducting so many tasks at

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Speaker 2: the same time that I'm imagining you were left feeling

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Speaker 2: a bit bamboozled and also tired.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and gripping the steering whil and thinking you're going

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Speaker 1: so far. And it's interesting to talk about that, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: because my little girl I keep calling the little girl

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Speaker 1: which is seventeen years old and almost a stalls me.

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Speaker 1: But she is learning to drive right now, and it

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Speaker 1: is interesting at the start watching her drive and they

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Speaker 1: and seeing her drive now and throw under the bus.

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Speaker 1: She didn't even have a stick to contend with, right

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Speaker 1: because everybody drives a bloody automatic over here.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. So as a British person, I obviously

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Speaker 2: learned manual, so I know what you're talking about. And

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Speaker 2: it is different because you grip the steering wheel. And

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Speaker 2: my thing actually was that anytime I'd go to change gear,

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Speaker 2: steering wheel would veer towards the direction of the gear stick.

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Speaker 2: Because you're concentrating on so many things at once, your

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Speaker 2: brain is running parallel tasks at the same time. So

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Speaker 2: what your brain does is it creates a neural pathway

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Speaker 2: that joins up every single activity that you need to

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Speaker 2: do whilst driving to create one seamless pathway that when

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Speaker 2: you get in the car, that pathway simply runs without

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Speaker 2: you needing to think about doing anything at all. That's

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Speaker 2: why you go from gripping the steering wheel to be

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Speaker 2: able to have a conversation with someone else in the car. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and why now consolidate tasks?

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Speaker 1: Sorry I was going to say, and why ni you

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Speaker 1: can end up somewhere and not remember actually getting there

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Speaker 1: in the car right?

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Speaker 2: Yes, oh my goodness exactly, because your brain is just

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Speaker 2: playing out the tasks it knows it needs to do.

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Speaker 2: And so so we have habits in order to ensure

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Speaker 2: that we have brain space to focus on what's important.

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Speaker 2: So off our ancestors, it might have been they could

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Speaker 2: make their hunting tasks habitual, which would mean that then

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Speaker 2: they didn't have to focus as much on hunting, but

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Speaker 2: could free up space in order to think, am I

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Speaker 2: now in danger? What else do I need to be

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Speaker 2: able to focus on at the same time. So there's

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Speaker 2: a very good reason we have habits. It's just that now,

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Speaker 2: especially in a world that is constantly fighting for our attention,

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Speaker 2: and that makes a lot of money off your habits

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Speaker 2: involving looking at their stuff, so for example Instagram, any

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Speaker 2: other social media, we are under kind of our tension

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Speaker 2: is under constant threat, and our habit loops are being

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Speaker 2: constantly triggered, and we are losing more of our time

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Speaker 2: to our habits than perhaps any generation before us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, and I think what a lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't realize is behind all of these social media platforms Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat,

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Speaker 1: all that there are, there's an army of behavioral scientists

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Speaker 1: who are working out and optimizing how to hack into

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Speaker 1: your brain and to make you want more and more

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Speaker 1: and more and more and more. And it's all based

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Speaker 1: on euroscience, right, all of that stuff. A lot of

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Speaker 1: these guys went through bj Fogg's Persuasive Technology Lab, where

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Speaker 1: he was the first guy that I actually was aware

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Speaker 1: of to talk about the science of creating habits. So

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Speaker 1: tell me this then, and why do those people continue

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Speaker 1: to do habits even though they know they're not helpful?

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Speaker 1: But you just kind of find yourself getting so into that.

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Speaker 1: Why do we get stuck in your language?

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, there's multiple reasons. One is because we're

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Speaker 2: simply not aware of which of our behaviors are habits.

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Speaker 2: The second is because even when we decide to change

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Speaker 2: a habit, we often only assume there's one queue for

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Speaker 2: that habit. So we might let's say, for example, you

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Speaker 2: want to stop smoking, you might assume that you only

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Speaker 2: smoke when you are in a social situation, or you

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Speaker 2: might decide that you only smoke when you're stressed, so

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Speaker 2: you might. Knowing the science of habit, which involves Q

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Speaker 2: craving action reward, you might very cleverly decide, so I'll

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Speaker 2: remove the cues that I know are an issue, so

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Speaker 2: I'll tackle my stress in a different way. Or you know,

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Speaker 2: some people fiddle with pencils instead of yes, or I'll

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Speaker 2: hang out with my friends who I don't smoke, who

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Speaker 2: don't smoke. They tackle two cues, but there might be

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Speaker 2: a hundred other cues that they've not even thought about. Seeing.

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Speaker 2: Something long and stick like might be a que deserving

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Speaker 2: a reward, might be a queue. So another reason that

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Speaker 2: we continue with habits is we don't get savvy to

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Speaker 2: the amount of cues that are triggering our behavior. The

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Speaker 2: next is we assume willpower is enough. Now, the issue

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Speaker 2: about willpower is that we used to think that willpower

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Speaker 2: was almost like petrol in a car tank, that you

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Speaker 2: had a finite amount each day, and the more you

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Speaker 2: used it, the more it ran out, and by the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, if you are tired, the willpower

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Speaker 2: is gone. Actually, we know willpower doesn't quite work like that,

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Speaker 2: or motivation as well, doesn't quite work like that. It's

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Speaker 2: more like an emotion. It comes and goes, and when

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Speaker 2: it's there you should take it. And when it's gone

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Speaker 2: you have to rely on other factors. And if you

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Speaker 2: don't believe you have it, you're less likely to have it.

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Speaker 2: So people rely too much on willpower. They don't make

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Speaker 2: a plan as to how they're changed their habits. And

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Speaker 2: the next thing is, it's not that this is not

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Speaker 2: anyone's fault. Very few people really understand how to leverage

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Speaker 2: their biology and the science habit in order to make

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Speaker 2: behavioral change.

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Speaker 1: Now as you're talking about the science of biology, so

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Speaker 1: I know a reasonable amount about habits, having talked about

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Speaker 1: behavior change a lot in my corporate work, however, and

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Speaker 1: the surprising thing that I read are one of the

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Speaker 1: cool things I read in europook was about the importance

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Speaker 1: of the time of day. So talk to us about that,

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Speaker 1: and then how we can leverage that time of day

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Speaker 1: if we are wanting to create new habits, or can

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Speaker 1: we use it as well to break old habits.

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Speaker 2: So it's this is quite interesting because so far to

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Speaker 2: date I haven't seen a book on There are some

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Speaker 2: brilliant books on habits out there, so atomic habits is exceptional.

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Speaker 2: For example, but to date, I haven't seen a book

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Speaker 2: that's written about this biology because it's come out more

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Speaker 2: recently than a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of the books.

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Speaker 2: So what we know is that are kind of internal neurochemistry,

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Speaker 2: So the chemicals in our brain in the first eight

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Speaker 2: hours of waking are set up in such a way

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Speaker 2: that we're more likely to be able to overcome friction.

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Speaker 2: So friction in the habit world, there's any time when

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Speaker 2: you go, oh, I don't really know if I want

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Speaker 2: to do that, or oh, there's lots of excuses why

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that. So in the morning, we have

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Speaker 2: more neurochemicals that help us push through that friction. After

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Speaker 2: the first eight hours, our neurochemistry changes and it starts

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Speaker 2: to settle. We're in a more relaxed state in it.

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Speaker 2: Hopefully in the last eight hours we're sound asleep. So

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Speaker 2: this pattern, this pattern isn't really applicable if you're a

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Speaker 2: night worker, but for the rest of us, this is

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Speaker 2: really important to know. So when it comes to habits,

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about is anything that's new, anything that's challenging,

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Speaker 2: anything that's active. You want to slot that into the

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Speaker 2: first eight hours of the day because this is when

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Speaker 2: your biochemistry is going to actually help you get through

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Speaker 2: the things that in the afternoon you might be like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: can't mothers do that? Then in the afternoon noon, that's

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Speaker 2: when you want to slip in anything that's an old habit,

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Speaker 2: or anything that's soothing. So this might be yoga, meditation, yoga, nidra,

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Speaker 2: so anything that's new and challenging.

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Speaker 1: Alcohol soothing, chocolate ice cream is soothing.

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Speaker 2: Also for most people, those aren't new habits, so they'll

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Speaker 2: happen at any type of day. If you're wanting to

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Speaker 2: add a new a new habit, the hard ones, the

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Speaker 2: kind of exert exerting ones, put them in the morning,

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Speaker 2: but the soothing ones and anything that's an old habit

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Speaker 2: in the afternoon. Now, once something is a habit, once

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Speaker 2: you've got it kind of off pat when you don't

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Speaker 2: have to think about it, it can actually happen in any

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Speaker 2: time of the day. So there's an important thing here.

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Speaker 2: People often decide, I know, if I want to change

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Speaker 2: my habit, I've got to really plant into my diect

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Speaker 2: This is true, but they often then think, well, I

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Speaker 2: should do it at nine am every day. Our brain

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Speaker 2: doesn't really work like that. Nine am comes and goes.

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Speaker 2: The best thing to do is to decide I'll do

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Speaker 2: it in the first eight hours. And then what you

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Speaker 2: want to do is you want to stack it onto

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Speaker 2: an old habit habit right, so yeah, yes, yes, so

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Speaker 2: you know about this, yes, yeah, I call them if

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Speaker 2: they and behaviors great exactly. So let's say, for example,

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Speaker 2: you want to start running in the morning. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that sounds absolutely bananas to me because I hate running,

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Speaker 2: but let's go with that. Let's go with that. And

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Speaker 2: you want to do the first thing. So let's say

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Speaker 2: every morning you always get up, you always brush your teeth. Now,

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Speaker 2: the first thing you'd want to do is at the

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Speaker 2: night before you put your running gear. So it's the

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Speaker 2: first thing you see when you get up in the morning. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So when I wake up, I get out of bed,

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Speaker 2: I put on my running gear, because the first habit

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Speaker 2: is getting out of bed. Then I walk to the

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Speaker 2: sink and I brush my teeth as normal. Then I

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Speaker 2: go out of the door and I run for five minutes.

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Speaker 2: Then when I get back, I complete my normal tasks.

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Speaker 2: So you always get up, you always brush your teeth,

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Speaker 2: and you tack onto the middle section of each one.

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Speaker 2: The activity so putting on your running gear, which is

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Speaker 2: already cute because you've already laid out next to your bed,

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Speaker 2: so you see it, you know what you're meant to do.

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Speaker 2: And then the final bit is tacked onto brushing your teeth.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, if I get up, then I put my

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Speaker 2: clothes on, So stack it in, but put it in

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Speaker 2: your first eight hours. But don't fall into the trap

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Speaker 2: of saying I'm going to do this every day at

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Speaker 2: nine mm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah cool. And is there any other way to help

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Speaker 1: sort of consolidate that habit in memory or is there

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Speaker 1: are there any other tricks that we can use to

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Speaker 1: help if we're doing the If then is there anything

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Speaker 1: else to creating that habit and trying to lock it in?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, there's hundreds, but I'm going to so

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Speaker 2: as not to make it complicated, I'll often have it.

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Speaker 2: Protocols are so complicated that become overwhelming, So some of

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Speaker 2: the obvious ones are in advance. Find out why you

404
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Speaker 2: want to do this activity. Often we do things because

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Speaker 2: someone else has told us to. We're less likely to

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Speaker 2: stay motivated if it's because we're trying to achieve something

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00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 2: that someone else wants. So work out who you want

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Speaker 2: to be in the future, work out what habits will

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Speaker 2: take you towards that person, and choose that habit rather

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Speaker 2: than the one you've been told to do.

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Speaker 1: So that's firsting.

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Speaker 2: Second thing that's really simple is habits become our mortie.

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Speaker 2: Habits are more likely to stick if we focus on

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Speaker 2: an instigation habit rather than the execution part of the habit. Now,

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Speaker 2: what this means is it's more important that you initiate

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Speaker 2: the habit than what you do during the routine. So

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Speaker 2: let's say, for example, I'm going to stick with exercise.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell I have an exercise this week, and

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Speaker 2: all I'm thinking about is the fact that I should

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Speaker 2: have gone to the gym. So if you want a

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Speaker 2: daily gym habit, it is more important that you set

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Speaker 2: up multiple cues in your house that will get you

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Speaker 2: to the gym and you do your habit stacking or

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Speaker 2: whatever it is your routine to go to the gym.

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Speaker 2: It's more important that you initiate going to the gym

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Speaker 2: every single day than it is to focus on what

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Speaker 2: you do once you get to the gym.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very cool, very cool. And I like the having

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Speaker 1: multiple cues because right now in my office I look

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Speaker 1: behind me. I have clubbils there, I have a kettle

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Speaker 1: bail there, and I have dipstition there. Right, And then

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Speaker 1: you go into my living room. There's a TRX hanging

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00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 1: off the wall. In our living room, there's kettlebells in

434
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: the corner. There's even a frigging rowing machine in there. Right.

435
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:32,960
Speaker 1: There are exercise cues all round this heights.

436
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: I love this. I love this because what people often

437
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 2: don't realize, as we were saying before, is once you've

438
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 2: done something for a while, it has more and more cues.

439
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 2: They are gathered along the time, along the way, and

440
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: often it's just the sight of one of those cues

441
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 2: that makes you go, oh, yes, I meant to do

442
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,199
Speaker 2: this thing now, that's really really good. And so you

443
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 2: want to focus on who you want to be repeating

444
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 2: the same action, the instigation habit, and then afterwards what

445
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,479
Speaker 2: you want is to be thinking, how am I going

446
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 2: to reward myself for this activity? And I need to

447
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: do as quickly, but I need to do it intermittently.

448
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: So we also gain habits faster if the reward doesn't

449
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: happen every single time.

450
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: So you know when you're scrolling dopamine, right, yes, exactly, predictaary,

451
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 3: yes exactly. So one thing you could do is you

452
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 3: do your habit with your friend, which leads to accountability,

453
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 3: and then you take it in terms to decide who's

454
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: going to decide this week if there's going to be

455
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 3: a reward and what the reward is, and you're not

456
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 3: going to tell each other nice or the other thing

457
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 3: is to flip a coin after your activity, do I

458
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 3: get your reward or don't I get your reward? And

459
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,479
Speaker 3: this intermittent pattern is going to make you look more

460
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 3: like foster a habit. But I have to say, none

461
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: of this matters if you're not repeating the behavior. The

462
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 3: single fastest way to your habit isn't how many hours

463
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 3: you spend doing it, it's how many times you initiate

464
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 3: it and repeat it.

465
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nice, I like that because it's about heavy and

466
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: learning in the brain, isn't it, neuve? Sales that fire

467
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 1: together wire together so frequent, see is really really key?

468
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: That that's awesome. And I love the way that you

469
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 1: threw in a bit of self determination theory in there

470
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 1: and finding your own reasons why it's important. This is

471
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: what I often say to people is that that don't

472
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: be doing stuff for other people, right, It's like, you've

473
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: got to find your own reasons why it's important to

474
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: you and not to anybody else.

475
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 2: But also not just because it's nice. It's not. I

476
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: don't just say this as in like, oh, find your path,

477
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: find your truth. I say this because when we're doing

478
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 2: something for someone else, we always self sabotage that that intention, Right,

479
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 2: We're like, why am I not doing this thing? It's

480
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 2: like because part of you, know, is you really don't

481
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: want to. So you're getting in your own way.

482
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 1: Oh, and we're going to we are going to talk

483
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 1: about getting in your own way. And look, I know

484
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 1: you could talk for habits for ages and so and

485
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: so could I because it's a really interesting topic. But

486
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 1: there's so much other cool stuff in your book that

487
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: I just want to give people a little taste of.

488
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: So let's talk about heuristics, right, what the hell are they?

489
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: Why do we have them? And give people some examples

490
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: so that they can impress their friends today by talking

491
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: about heuristics.

492
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 2: So, heuristics is just a really fancy word for a

493
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: mental shortcut. So, as you were saying before, we're bombarded

494
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: by information all of the time, and so our brain

495
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: had to develop a way in which it could make

496
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: decisions very quickly with a very small amount of information.

497
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: So one really oversimplified way of describing a heuristic is

498
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: it's your gut instinct. So you know, if you walk

499
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: into a bar and it feels dodgy in a few

500
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 2: of those, there you go, me too, me too. That

501
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: gut instinct is your brain is used used pattern recognition

502
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: to very quickly say something is wrong and you leave

503
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 2: that building without asking questions.

504
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 1: It's really interesting Starry to jump in here, but there's

505
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: really really interesting research on people like fireman and first

506
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: respond other first responders that just have a sense that

507
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: something is wrong and say, everybody needs to get the

508
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: hell out of here, and then the whole building collapses. Right,

509
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: And that's just all of that information that has been

510
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: non consciously processed and held in the brain and in

511
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: it just recognizes patterns right exactly.

512
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: The fireman example is amazing. So it's happened so many times.

513
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: Fireman will say everyone evacuates. Someone will say why, and

514
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: I'll say, I can't tell you why. I just know

515
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: something's wrong. So it's a gut instinct that happens before

516
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 2: you're consciously aware, and some of the really common ones

517
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: that often we don't realize are happening are things like

518
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: social proof and group think. So social proof and group

519
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 2: think are shortcuts that will tell you your brain, really

520
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,360
Speaker 2: because it's outside of your consciousness, that the right thing

521
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: to do is the thing that other people think is

522
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 2: right to do. It's the things. And with groupthink, it's

523
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: saying I will ignore my own views because the group

524
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: is likely to be right, and sometimes that will extend

525
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: to I will then quiet anyone who disagrees.

526
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: With the truth.

527
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 2: So social proof and group think are things we see

528
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 2: all the time on social media. It's why we want

529
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 2: to buy what influences sell.

530
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also then when we're living in the echo

531
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: chamber in social media, right when it's serving us up

532
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: the content that it thinks that we want to see,

533
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 1: we get really sucked into that. Social proof and group think.

534
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: Right one and another mental shortcut is confirmation bias. So

535
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: the idea that our brain will only look for the

536
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: information that proves its own beliefs to be right, but

537
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: then will also interpret everything that you've been told as

538
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: proof that you're.

539
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: Righty, we justify our own thinking. Are we were just

540
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: constantly looking for evidence that what we believe is right.

541
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And another one that's really quite alarming on

542
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: that front, but it's actually day to day just quite

543
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 2: normal and fine. Is illusory superiority. So the fact that

544
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: more than well most of us will assume we're better

545
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: than average at almost everything we do. So of drivers

546
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: believe that they're above average drivers, which is just statistically impossible.

547
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: So if you consider that our kind of day to

548
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 2: day decision making isn't generally us making rational, well thought

549
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: out decisions, but is our brain shortcutting those decisions by saying,

550
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: what do other people think? What that person said likely

551
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,239
Speaker 2: just confirms what I said to be true, And of

552
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: course I'm right, because I'm pretty much smarter than everyone else.

553
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: You can see how you can see how quickly our

554
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: thinking gets derailed. And I know you know, I'm obviously

555
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: giving you three of there's over one hundred of these touristics,

556
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: but they happen in such a split second, much like

557
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: walking into the bar and getting that gut feeling of

558
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: walking out that whether they have a large impact on

559
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: your life or not, this is happening any moment that

560
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: you're awake, so can quickly derail a very logical thought

561
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: process into you making decisions that actually have no link

562
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: to the person you want to be in the future,

563
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: getting you very stuck.

564
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Something else that can get you stuck.

565
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: And I love that. I saw this in your book,

566
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: hyperbolic discounting or temporal discounting. Talk to us about that

567
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: what that because it's so important that people understand that. Right.

568
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: It explains everything from why we don't exercise to why

569
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: we don't see it enough for retirement. And so talk

570
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: to us about what that stuff is and high influences

571
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: our decisions.

572
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm going to go back to our ancestors first.

573
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: So almost everything we've discussed has a reason in terms

574
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 2: of keeping us as alive as a species. So hyperbolic

575
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: or temporal discounting is the idea that we choose the

576
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: thing that is right in front of us rather than

577
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: the thing that could happen in the future, even if

578
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: the thing that happens in the future is better for us.

579
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: So this makes sense when it comes to our ancestors.

580
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: Imagine our ancestors came across a skinny little deer or

581
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: a few berries on a bush. It makes sense. It

582
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: makes sense that they kill that skinny deer and eat

583
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: those berries now, rather than waiting for the deer to

584
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: fatten up and maybe have a family, or for that small, tiny,

585
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: rubbish little bush to grow into a massive one, because

586
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: they may not be around in that amount of time later,

587
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like a few weeks later,

588
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: a few months later, or a year later. So take

589
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: what you have now because you might not be around later.

590
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: Do so.

591
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: That makes sense for our ancestors, But what does that

592
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: mean for your anna?

593
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: I now?

594
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 2: It means that when we think.

595
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 4: Well, I could save this amount of money that I'm

596
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 4: about to spend on this thing such as dinner right

597
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 4: now or this outfit, I could add that to my

598
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 4: pension and use that later in life when it would

599
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,959
Speaker 4: be really important to keep it for. But instead, no, no,

600
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 4: I'm going to buy that thing that I have right

601
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 4: in front of me right now. It means we buy

602
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 4: the fancy dinner or the outfit that we couldn't afford.

603
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 4: In terms of going to the gym, it means we

604
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 4: choose to sit on the sofa or like to eat

605
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 4: the yummy thing that's in front of us, rather than say,

606
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 4: you know what I'm going to save that until after

607
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: I get back to the gym. We will always choose

608
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 4: the quick win over long term game.

609
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: And really interesting study by I think it's hal Halzburg.

610
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: I can't remember his surname, but it was basically a

611
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: real life experiment with Americans who had the first job

612
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: or they were getting a job, and they had to choose.

613
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: I think it's called the canine in America over here

614
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: at super anniation, but we have to mandatory you have

615
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: to pay some of your salary goes into that. In America,

616
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: they choose how much they do it. And he did

617
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: this really cool experiment where he got a bunch of

618
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: people and they were wearing VR technology, so they saw

619
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: an avatar of themselves actually filling out the form. And

620
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: some of those people saw an avatar of themselves as

621
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: they look today, and some of those people saw an

622
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: avatar they'd aids the avatar. So it was in their

623
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: sixties and the people and these were real life decisions.

624
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: The people who viewed saw themselves as in their sixties.

625
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: Making the decision put more than double the amount of

626
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: their pay into their retirement fund. Right, so we can

627
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: actually manipulate that for the good that was pretty cool

628
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: shit and really shows how we are influenced by this

629
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: hyperbolic discounting.

630
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think the earliest study was something like

631
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: if I give you ten pounds now or one hundred

632
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: ten pounds in a year, which will you take? And

633
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: people like, oh, ten pounds now, but like, logically that

634
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 2: doesn't make sense. You'll get one hundred and ten pounds

635
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: in a year. It doesn't make any sense, but it

636
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: feels like it makes sense to us. It's like, well,

637
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 2: I just want ten pounds now, I might not.

638
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: Burd in hand in the bush, right.

639
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, although in a year's time it doesn't feel like that.

640
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, I really want.

641
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: It to exactly now. I like to take a quick

642
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: break for a word from our sponsors. Let's talk about

643
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: self sabotage. Why the hell do we do what is

644
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: under the hood whenever we are self sabotaged, because there

645
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: will be so many people listening there as going that's me.

646
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: I'm a self sabotager. I get so close and then

647
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: I just screw everything up. What's going on there?

648
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: Safety seeking it's the shortest answer to that question. So essentially,

649
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: self sabotage, I think often comes across as this kind

650
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: of willing destruction of our own life. But actually it's

651
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: it's something that most of us do because either we

652
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: fear failure, we fear rejection, we think that there's only

653
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 2: a certain amount of happiness that we're meant to have

654
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 2: in our life, or we fear success. So I'm going

655
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: to give you a fun little story. I just before

656
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 2: I was finishing my first book, Like literally, i'd written

657
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: ninety five percent of this book. I didn't have much

658
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: left to do. I suddenly just stopped working on it.

659
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: I really mean it, like I just couldn't make myself

660
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: to that. I was so close to the finish line,

661
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: and I painted my entire house, my entire house, I

662
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: mean what my house did not I don't own it.

663
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 2: I'm a renter, right am I painting someone else's house.

664
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: I was just so motivated to do it. It was

665
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: really compelling. And then I found some other projects to do.

666
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: You know how it goes anyway, So, because most people

667
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: talk about self sabotage as being a form of protection

668
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: against fear of failure, So in other words, if I

669
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 2: don't try, then I can't fail and no one will

670
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 2: laugh at me. At first, I thought, oh, maybe I've

671
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 2: given up because I'm scared it's going.

672
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: To be bad.

673
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, maybe that sounds about right,

674
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: but it doesn't really fit. And I realized that in

675
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: the UK we have something and I'm pretty sure you

676
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 2: have this. In Australia we have tall poppy syndrome.

677
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: You get much stronger here. The force is strong. Oh really?

678
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, a stronger than the UK.

679
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're gonna know what I'm talking about, right,

680
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 2: So the idea if any poppy grows too tall, we

681
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: must cut it down to size. Okay. So that's one

682
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: of the many things that kind of told me early on.

683
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: You must not get too big for your boots. You

684
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 2: must not stand out, you must not go further than

685
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: you are expected to go, because if you put yourself

686
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: out there, someone is going to take you down. So

687
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 2: what happened to avoid being taken down? I just stopped working.

688
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: It was too frightening. The idea of finishing it. And

689
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: I don't mean the idea of finishing it and it

690
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 2: being a glowing success. I just mean finishing it and saying,

691
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: my friends, so I've written a book suddenly felt too threatening,

692
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: like ooh, who does she think? She is little misauthor

693
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: over there, so I just stopped writing. So self sabotage

694
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: is anything that we do to keep ourselves within our

695
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: comfort zone, but there are many reasons that we do it,

696
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: and the way that we move forward is kind of

697
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: too pronged. It is figuring out what it is that

698
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 2: we're trying to avoid and tackling that kind of emotional state. So, right,

699
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: if I'm afraid, what do I do in order to

700
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: soothe myself? How do I kind of look after myself

701
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 2: should that worst thing happen? And what do I need

702
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,919
Speaker 2: to do right now? And the other prong is doing

703
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: behavioral experiments? So okay, what do I need to do

704
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 2: in order to be able to test out my fear?

705
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: So is it I need to say? Okay, what if

706
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 2: I did put my book out there and everyone did

707
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: shame me? What would I do?

708
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: Then?

709
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 2: Well, probably say to my friends, that's not very nice.

710
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 2: I've worked really hard. Hopefully actually most of my friends

711
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 2: wouldn't be like that, because that's not really what friends do.

712
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? I created a plan of

713
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 2: attack for should the work happened, and then I just

714
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 2: broke my task down into the smallest steps. I was like, so,

715
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 2: can I sit down and write for five hundred words today? Yes,

716
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 2: I can do that, And I just kept building from

717
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: there and facing my fear, but in the smallest and

718
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 2: most manageable ways. You mentioned fog earlier. He said, if

719
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 2: you're wanting to set up a habit basically floss one

720
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 2: tooth day, that's right. He said it in a much

721
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: more eloquent way. But that's kind of how I tackle

722
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: self sabotage, right. It's like, so what is the one tooth? Yeah,

723
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 2: if I can sit down and write five hundred words,

724
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 2: I can do that, and you build from there until

725
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 2: you've done the whole set of teeth. And you've already

726
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: tackled the emotional side. So you've kind of too prong approach.

727
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: What do I do to manage emotionally? And what do

728
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: I do to manage physically? And you put one front

729
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 2: of foot in front of the other until you get

730
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: it done.

731
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. And one of the things actually I've

732
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 1: been talking to my daughter has jumped onto this like

733
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: she's a nerd, she's a swat, and then sometimes she's

734
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: she's just the motivation drops side and she's she comes

735
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: and goes dad, I'm really not motivated today. And I said,

736
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: that's fine, why don't you just do ten minutes? Say

737
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: a Lauren, do ten minutes and that's it. And she's

738
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: jumped onto this, so she DENI that she's not motivated.

739
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 1: She just goes, I'm just going to go to ten

740
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: minutes and that's it. And sometimes that ten minutes is

741
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: ten minutes. But sometimes it just rolls. Right. This is

742
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: what a lot of people don't realize. Motivation follows action,

743
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 1: not the other way around.

744
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 2: Exactly one hundred percent. And also, if we now tie

745
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: that back to habits, what you're doing so brilliantly there

746
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 2: is you're enforcing an instigation habit, right, So it doesn't

747
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: matter what you do once you sit down, as long

748
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: as you sit down and start. And if you do

749
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: that every day, even if you just sit down for

750
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: five minutes. Now what happens every time you think I

751
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 2: can't do it? The habit of actually I could do

752
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 2: five minutes becomes a pattern that stays with you for life.

753
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,879
Speaker 2: And I do have to say, you know, sometimes when

754
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: talking on podcasts or simplifying things in blogs or talking

755
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: on kind of short form on Instagram, we can make

756
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: quite complex things sound like they're very very easy to do. Yeah,

757
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 2: and you know, facing self sabotage, like when I was

758
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,879
Speaker 2: genuinely afraid. I was genuinely afraid, and I did turn

759
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: it around quite quickly. But I just really want to

760
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: stress to listeners that well, and it sounds like we're

761
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: making life of quite complicated things. I do know that

762
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 2: it can be more complex than this. And also the

763
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 2: reason I wrote like a three hundred page book on

764
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 2: this is because sometimes we need a little bit more

765
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 2: than what we're talking about now, a little bit more support,

766
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 2: a little bit more guidance.

767
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And for anybody who's interesting, is you do a

768
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: whole thing on the self sabotaged cycle and what we

769
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: can do about it. So I will direct people to

770
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: your book. But I love this the instigation habits. I'm

771
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: a massive fan of that, although I wasn't even aware

772
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 1: of the technology, sorry, of the of the preeseology. So

773
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 1: often I'll say to people, you know, if you don't

774
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: want to go for a run, that's fine. You know,

775
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: you've said I'm going to go for a run, and

776
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: going to go for a run, and then you wake up

777
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: in the morning and you're like, I do not want

778
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: to go for a run. I just don't have the motivation.

779
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: And I say, that's cool, you don't have to, but

780
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: you do have to put your exercise gear on and

781
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: walk to the and that's it. And he walked to

782
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: the gate. He can come back in and that's absolutely fine.

783
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: And sometimes you will come back in and sometimes you'll

784
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: go you know what, I'm bloody well there. I like

785
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: little things like enabling habits, which are kind of instigation

786
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: habits but then have a flow on effect. So I

787
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: have this rule that whenever I come back from work

788
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: and I put on my exercise gear right. So last

789
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: night I flew back from Canberra, I emailed you as

790
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: the plane touched on the tarmac, i'd send an email

791
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: to you with with just about this morning. And that

792
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: was about half past nine, and so I didn't get

793
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: back until nearly eleven o'clock and I was going to

794
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 1: go straight to bed, and I found myself. I got

795
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: home and I put on my exercise gear right. It's like,

796
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: why why the hell am I doing that? It's just

797
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: it was just it's locked into my brain. And the

798
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: reason I started doing that is, if you you know,

799
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: I talk to audiences all the time when they come

800
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: on from work. The amount of people who put the

801
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: pajamas on is just crazy, right, And I said, well,

802
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: what's the priming in your brain? Right, you put your

803
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 1: pajamas on. Their priming is sit on the sofa, have

804
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: a glass of wine.

805
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, or walk in, turn the TV on, you know,

806
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: walk in and be like, oh, thank god, I'm here,

807
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: and your home becomes associated just with sleep. And you know,

808
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: obviously there's no problem with any of these activities if

809
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: they're what you truly value in life and that's what

810
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: you want. If that's not what you want, we need

811
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 2: to be kind of setting up our homes. And I

812
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 2: love that you have this exercise gear on the moment

813
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 2: you come in. You need to be setting up those cues.

814
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: Please don't rely on will parallel Like, yeah, your environment

815
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,959
Speaker 2: shapes what you do. So make that house a little

816
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 2: bit less cozy if you need to.

817
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. And take the ship food out of

818
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: the house. Stop telling yourself that it's for your children.

819
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 1: Don't need it. It's for you and you don't need

820
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,399
Speaker 1: it either, right, and.

821
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: Stop working in bed. I think I'm telling myself this,

822
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 2: stop working in bed, because then your bed becomes associated

823
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 2: with being awake. Right, everything around you is a queue.

824
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, that bird one is critical. And when I talk

825
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: about sleep hygiene, I say, a really important thing is

826
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 1: that your brilliant needs to know that your bedroom is

827
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: a sleep sanctuary, is where you go to sleep, and

828
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: if you're lucky, you get a bit of boostie macgoofty

829
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: every nine and then right. But it's not for television's,

830
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: laptops and mobile phones.

831
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: I've never heard of femagogli in my whole life. Oh

832
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: my god, that was amazing. Exactly, people, exactly, this is very,

833
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: very true. And again this is where those kind of

834
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 2: permissive cognitions come in. You know those thoughts that go, oh, well,

835
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 2: how bad is it this time? And it's true, watching

836
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 2: like doing a piece of work in your admissive cognition.

837
00:43:58,400 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: I love that.

838
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think I've made that up. I don't

839
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: think I've made that up. That sounds like too fancy

840
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: a word for me to have generated myself. I think

841
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 2: it is the technical term for basically just a thought

842
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: that gives you permission when you know you really shouldn't.

843
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: Like a single permissive cognition is no big deal. But

844
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 2: what happens well the next time that will nothing really

845
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: changed the last time I worked in bed? How about

846
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: can it be? And suddenly you start laying down habits

847
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: without realizing. So yeah, right, you have mcgufty and sleep

848
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 2: in bed people.

849
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 1: That's it exactly. Now let's talk about self esteem. So

850
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:36,240
Speaker 1: you talk about self esteem and boosting our self esteem

851
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: in a healthy way. And so for me, there's a

852
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: little bit of a thin line to walk here, because

853
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: you know, we've had twenty years of boosterism of self

854
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: esteem that did not work out well. That Chimerdi and

855
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: United State. It's telling me, you know, you're awesome, you

856
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: can be anything you want to be, and all this stuff. Right,

857
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 1: So let's let's separate that false boosterism from people who

858
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: really their self esteem is giving in their way and

859
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: they need a cop of the little subtle techniques for

860
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 1: just lifting it to a normal, reasonable level, not boosting

861
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: it into this unrealistic stratosphere.

862
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,799
Speaker 2: Well, so firstly, I'd love to say that those kind

863
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: of very exciting bumper sticker kind of your brilliant taglines

864
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 2: often get us really stuck because we might try and

865
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 2: believe them in our head, but if we don't believe

866
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: them in our heart. We're constantly in conflict of feeling

867
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 2: like that doesn't feel true. But I'm meant to say,

868
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 2: oh God, am I failing? Am I failing? Am I failing?

869
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 2: So that's the first thing. Second thing is I don't

870
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 2: know if many people really truly understand what self esteem is.

871
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 2: It's the value you place on yourself, It's your worth.

872
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 2: People often confuse it with self confidence. So self confidence

873
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 2: is how much you believe in your ability in a

874
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 2: certain area. So I am confident as a psychologist, Yes,

875
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,280
Speaker 2: I'm confident that I can show up to a therapy

876
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 2: session and pretty much always know what I'm going to do,

877
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: or if I don't know the solution, I will pretty

878
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 2: much find a way. Because I've been doing this for

879
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 2: a long time. I'm confident in my skill I as

880
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: a person, and not necessarily confident in who I am

881
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 2: all the time. I don't struck down the street and

882
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 2: so amazing, because that's a different thing. So our worth

883
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: is based, yes, partly on our confidence. So if you

884
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: feel like you're able to navigate most scenarios, even if

885
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 2: they're scary, that's going to boost your self esteem. But

886
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 2: there are other aspects of self esteem which include belonging.

887
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: So if you're struggling with your self esteem, look at

888
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 2: who's around you. Are there enough people around you who

889
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 2: when you look in their eyes, they reflect back at

890
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 2: you that they think that you're pretty great as you are.

891
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 2: You know a lot of these Instagram posts will say

892
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: who cares what other people think? And I think that's

893
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 2: a really nice idea and if you're able to get there, brilliant.

894
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: But actually, our real core sense of do I belong

895
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 2: is partly derived from seeing in other people's eyes that

896
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 2: they think that we matter, So we've got confidence working

897
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 2: on certain skills. Belonging ensuring you're surrounded by a community

898
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 2: of people. It doesn't matter the number of people, it

899
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 2: matters the quality of the connections, So folks on belonging.

900
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: The next one is identity. So often if you imagine

901
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 2: your identity being like a jigsaw puzzle, often what happens

902
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 2: is work for many of us, not everyone becomes the

903
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:37,439
Speaker 2: single piece of the puzzle. This means, if work isn't

904
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: going well, do you imagine that puzzle piece suddenly missing

905
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 2: or being destabilized. There's a massive whole or a shakiness

906
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 2: in your identity. So this is where It's a really

907
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: good place to do a values assessment. Figure out what's

908
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 2: important in your life, and there's lots of values sheets

909
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 2: online to do this. Also shameless plug in a Manner

910
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: for Being Human and in my new book and Stuck.

911
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 2: Figure out what you value and make sure you engage

912
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: in activities that cover each of the main areas of

913
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: your identity. So you feel like you're really engaging in

914
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 2: valued activities, I feel like you really know who you are.

915
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 2: So these are kind of three of the places that

916
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 2: I would start.

917
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that and really sorry, I just stay to step

918
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 1: in right here. That is the most comprehensive, brilliant explanation

919
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: I've ever heard around self esteem. That is just gold. Okay,

920
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: so continue with what you were going to say.

921
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 2: I know all I was going to say is putting

922
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 2: on address that you love might make you feel one

923
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 2: thousand dollars a million dollars for like five minutes, but

924
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 2: it's this other stuff that will make you feel like

925
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 2: you're worthy for the rest of your life. So I'm

926
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 2: not saying don't focus on the kind of frills, the

927
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: fun fripperies, but really working on these core aspects of identity,

928
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: belonging and building up skills that you know that you

929
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 2: can cope in life. That is a foundation will take

930
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: you through your life in a way that you would

931
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 2: never imagine. But there's many other things, so you know,

932
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: it's just a starting point.

933
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: But a really good starting point. And I think if

934
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: we just look at that belonging, I mean Richard Ran

935
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: and ed DC who creates self determination theory, they talked

936
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: about the three basic human needs, and relatedness is one.

937
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: In fact, you touched on two of them, right, relatedness

938
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: and competence or mastering. Right, So having some of those skills,

939
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: but that being a member of a tribe. We are

940
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: a tribal species, and one of the worst things for

941
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: your health is loneliness. Right, we have to be connected

942
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: into people. And I think you put it beautifully is

943
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: being with people who actually value you is really important.

944
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: And just stop hanging out with the p people who

945
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: are constantly criticizing you or undermining your self worth, because

946
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 1: especially if they're close to you, Oh my god, that

947
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 1: can just destroy people right one.

948
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes we can't get away from those people.

949
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 2: Let's say your boss is a micromanager. You might actually

950
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: have to find a way to rubble along with them.

951
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: But in that situation way, oh yeah, if you can.

952
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 2: This comes from a doctor, Sophie bought no, no, no, no no.

953
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,280
Speaker 2: What I was going to say is sometimes you can't

954
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 2: cut those people out, and in that scenario, what I

955
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: would really recommend is just making sure that in your

956
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 2: social life you're kind of joining communities, joining clubs. Maybe,

957
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,439
Speaker 2: for example, we're going to go back to exercise purely

958
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: because we've mentioned it so much. If you want to go,

959
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 2: like if you love hiking, if you love running, is

960
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 2: there a community that you live near that you could

961
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 2: go and do that once a week with other people

962
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: you know people. It's amazing how difficult I think people

963
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 2: find it to make friends, especially post pandemic and especially

964
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 2: once people kind of cross a certain age group. But actually,

965
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 2: you know, online there's things like meetup dot com where

966
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 2: they where they'll tell you what is going on in

967
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 2: your community. And the beauty of doing activities together is

968
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 2: that you get to do something side by side. So

969
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: if you're feeling anxious or you're not sure about your

970
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 2: social skills, and the idea of sitting with someone looking

971
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: them in the eyes, kind of having to feel like

972
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 2: you have to come up with something witty and scintillating

973
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 2: for an hour feels overwhelming. Doing an activity like walking

974
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 2: next to each other or sewing, or even going to

975
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: the cinema or going to look at art side by

976
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 2: side with someone not only gives you a focus points

977
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: outside of your head, but it gives you something to

978
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 2: talk about afterwards.

979
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very cool. And actually you mentioned side by side.

980
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: A really interesting little fun fact that I came across

981
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: recently is that females and when they are getting into

982
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 1: relationships and tend to do fierce to fierce interactions. So

983
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: we'll sit down over coffee, we're below, it's much more

984
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: side by side. So it's standing watching something talking having

985
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,880
Speaker 1: conversations when they're side by side, and teenagers will open

986
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: up much more side by side, right out for a walk,

987
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: driving in the car. How many people have noticed that

988
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: their teenagers talk a little bit more when they're sitting there.

989
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: So it's that side shoulder to shoulder stuff can be

990
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: really really valuable as well in terms of a communication too.

991
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 2: It's the best. Yeah, it's the best.

992
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 1: Okay, now you talk. Also, you've got this really cool thing.

993
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: You got so much cool stuff in your book, But

994
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: do you talk about this drama triangle, which is really cool.

995
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 1: So talk us through the drama triangle. What is it

996
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 1: and why is it relevant in our lives?

997
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 2: So Steve Carptman gosh I but it his name is.

998
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 2: Then Steve Carpman came up with this. It's not mine,

999
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 2: but it's to oversimplify it. It's this idea that we

1000
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 2: often take up repeated roles in our lives, particularly during conflict,

1001
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 2: where we either assume the kind of victim, rescuer or

1002
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 2: persecutor position. It's the pattern that we see in almost

1003
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,320
Speaker 2: every fairy tale. It's the pattern we see in almost

1004
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 2: every movie. So in oversimplified terms, let's say a little

1005
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: red riding Hood, her grandmother, the wolf, and the huntsman.

1006
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: So little red Wolf is the victim because she obviously

1007
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 2: gets eaten, so is the grandma. The wolf is obviously

1008
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 2: the persecutor, and the huntsman who comes in and chops

1009
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,359
Speaker 2: the wolf up and somehow rescues the still living red

1010
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,720
Speaker 2: riding Hood and grandma from the tummy of the wolf

1011
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 2: is the rescuer. So this is a triangle. It's a

1012
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 2: pattern that we know. It's as tale as old as time.

1013
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 2: But in our relationships The reason it's a problem is

1014
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 2: because it rarely means that we tackle our conflict head on. Okay,

1015
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 2: So let's say, for example, you're in a couple and

1016
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,640
Speaker 2: when you have friends over for dinner, you tend to fight,

1017
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 2: and then another person steps in to rescue you. Yes,

1018
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: one of you in the couple is the victim. The

1019
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 2: other person is probably seen to be the persecutor probably

1020
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 2: both of you think you're the victim. The friend steps in. Now,

1021
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 2: if this happens once or twice, that's not really a

1022
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 2: big deal. It can be helpful to have a friend

1023
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,799
Speaker 2: kind of interrupt an argument. But if over time this

1024
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 2: relationship becomes reliant on a third person rescuing them, it

1025
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 2: means that the couple actually never faces their conflicts together

1026
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 2: and adaptively works through them. Now kind of something that

1027
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 2: many of the people I know really identify with.

1028
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: Is.

1029
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 2: Another example is people who are drawn to the rescuer role. Now,

1030
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 2: every therapist is drawn to the rescue role. Often think

1031
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: they're being helpful. They see someone they're like, oh, my goodness,

1032
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 2: I need to step in help. So they make the

1033
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: other person the victim, whether the other person was asking

1034
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 2: for help or not. It's like, oh, they need my help.

1035
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 2: Then they go in and they they tend to over

1036
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: offer help, right And sometimes when we help someone in

1037
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,919
Speaker 2: a way that's realistic, we say, do you actually want help?

1038
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 2: What would you like me to support you with? How

1039
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 2: would you like me to support you? And then the

1040
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,600
Speaker 2: two of you work together on a solution that builds

1041
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 2: the other person up so that in the future they

1042
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 2: can tackle the problem themselves. When we're in rescue a role,

1043
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 2: we treat everyone as if they're disempowered, as if they're

1044
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,399
Speaker 2: unable to figure out a solution for themselves. We then

1045
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 2: step in do things for them, creating a cycle in

1046
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:35,800
Speaker 2: which that person becomes continuously more disempowered and you feel

1047
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 2: more and more like I am such a good person.

1048
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 2: But and this is the final thing I want to say,

1049
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 2: which is irrespective of the position you're drawn to, and

1050
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 2: believe me, at any time of day, we can slip

1051
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 2: into persecutor a victim, or rescuer. Even though we're drawn

1052
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: to one role, we all occasionally become that person who

1053
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 2: criticizes the other. We all become the person that thinks

1054
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 2: they need to change them, not me. Irrespective of the

1055
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,919
Speaker 2: role that you start out in, everyone ends up feeling

1056
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:05,879
Speaker 2: like the victim. So the rescuer who says, oh, let

1057
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,400
Speaker 2: me help you. At some point, if the victim says

1058
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 2: no thanks or yeah, the idea you gave me wouldn't work,

1059
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 2: then the rescuer goes, well, I was only trying to help,

1060
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 2: feeling like I can't believe they drew me into their

1061
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 2: drama and now they're not listening.

1062
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:19,879
Speaker 1: Right.

1063
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 2: The drama triangle draws us into familiar patterns, It stops

1064
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 2: us from tackling the actual issue at hand, and it

1065
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 2: leaves everyone who plays the game feeling like they're the

1066
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 2: one that's hard done to.

1067
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting. Look, as you were telling that story,

1068
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 1: it's kind of linked to this, not directly, but it

1069
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: was about people not being left alone to sort it

1070
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 1: out themselves. Right. And I'll tell you a little story.

1071
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,479
Speaker 1: When I was back in the military in the UK,

1072
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: I've just flying helicopters and we were going on an

1073
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:58,359
Speaker 1: embarkation for I think it was six weeks and you

1074
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 1: fly in cruise, so there was going to be a

1075
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: number of crews on there. I think there was four

1076
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,839
Speaker 1: crews anyway, And when you go to see with each

1077
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 1: other and the pilots, the backseater mean and navigator. You

1078
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: sleep together, you eat together, you fly together, you live

1079
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: in each other's pockets. Right. There were two pilots out

1080
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 1: of eight who detested each other, right, And they were

1081
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: both thinking, shit, was a reasonable chance that we are

1082
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: going to be crewed up here and we are going

1083
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: to be living in each other's pockets for the next

1084
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: six weeks. So they both they had a quick chat,

1085
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: even though they didn't like each other, and they both

1086
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: independently went to the senior pilot and PERSONNE who will

1087
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: rename me, and they said, Boss, I don't really get

1088
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: on with person B. I'd prefer if you don't crew

1089
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: me up with them. And then person B went in

1090
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: and said the same thing about PERSONAE. The senior pilot

1091
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: listened to them both and then brought them both into

1092
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: the room and sat them down and said the personally,

1093
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: how long have you got left in the squadron? And

1094
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 1: they said some like fifteen months in Person B said,

1095
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:01,520
Speaker 1: they asked, and he said eighteen months. And he said,

1096
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: you two fuckers are going to be flying together every

1097
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: single day for the next fifteen months. Go and sort

1098
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: your shit out. There is no room for egos. This

1099
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: is a team, right, And that was it. They were

1100
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: just crewed up forever and ever brilliant way to shortcut

1101
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,919
Speaker 1: that right, right.

1102
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:32,000
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because every conflict or pattern we get

1103
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 2: into in our life won't necessarily be helped by exactly

1104
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: the same solution.

1105
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: Right.

1106
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 2: So let's say you, for example, you have a warring partnership,

1107
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 2: so the same situation. Let's say let's go really heteronormative,

1108
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 2: like a husband and wife and they hate each other.

1109
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 2: The solution may not be in that situation, just go

1110
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 2: away and sort it out, but correct situation. But there

1111
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 2: are other scenarios in which what you're talking about is

1112
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 2: absolutely perfect because what the boss decided I did to

1113
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 2: do there was like, I see your drama. I see

1114
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 2: you're trying to drag me into some kind of triangle.

1115
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 2: And instead of playing the game, and instead of allowing

1116
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 2: gossip to happen, and instead of you're relying on me

1117
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 2: fixing your problems, I'm going to sit here and the

1118
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 2: three of us are going to talk like adults. So

1119
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 2: it's wonderful when I hear things like that, and you

1120
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 2: hear that it worked out, You're just like, yes, you

1121
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 2: notice the drama. You decided not to get involved and

1122
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 2: you sorted it, and you know, I assume that had

1123
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 2: it not have worked out, let's say six months later

1124
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 2: or a month later, even if it had become untenable,

1125
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 2: then you think of another solution. But having conversations out

1126
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: in the open is almost always the best way.

1127
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And this is the extreme circumstances, right, because

1128
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:44,919
Speaker 1: these people might have to go to war with each other. Right,

1129
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 1: So that is an extreme and so it's certainly not

1130
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 1: what I was suggesting for everybody to do. Now, let's

1131
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: not talk about the importance. You write about the importance

1132
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 1: of historical grips. So what are they and how did

1133
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: they influence? Just give us a couple of examples.

1134
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 2: Okay, so this is I don't want it, do you

1135
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: to imagine that everything that you learned as a child

1136
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 2: is going to dictate what you do as an adult.

1137
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 2: But generally, when you came into the world, you learned

1138
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 2: what you were meant to do in any given scenario

1139
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 2: by watching the people around you and how they responded.

1140
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 2: So let's say, for example, if your parents were into

1141
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 2: having others over for dinner, you will have learned what

1142
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 2: hosting looked like based on how they hosted. Everyone else

1143
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 2: let's say, for example, your parents had affairs when things

1144
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 2: got stressful, you learned when things get stressful, you sleep

1145
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 2: with other people. So if you imagine, if you imagine

1146
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 2: that you're kind of writing down a script that says,

1147
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 2: when X happens, I do why. This is one way

1148
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 2: of conceptualizing how family scripts family behaviors are past generation

1149
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 2: to generation. Now, obviously I don't want to underplay individual

1150
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 2: differences DNA the fact that lots of us naturally have

1151
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 2: our own ways of being. But often when we get

1152
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 2: to a certain age in our life or a certain

1153
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 2: position in our life that reminds us of something to

1154
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 2: do to our family, we enact their patents. So something

1155
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 2: that can be really useful is if you start noticing

1156
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 2: that you're doing something you don't like, is to say,

1157
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 2: where did this start in my family tree? Did I

1158
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 2: come up with this or did someone three generations ago

1159
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 2: start drinking when they were stressed? Identifying where it came

1160
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 2: from is the first thing, because it helps give you

1161
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 2: compassion for why you're doing it self. Criticism flogging yourself

1162
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 2: isn't actually very motivating. Compassion plus responsibility that is how

1163
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 2: you make change. So intergenerational scripts dictate how you're going

1164
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 2: to act in certain circumstances. And what's really important I

1165
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 2: think to know is we have three different kinds of scripts.

1166
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 2: We have the ones where we replicate the ones we

1167
01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 2: have to generate ourselves because we simply never saw someone

1168
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 2: do it. So for example, when tech came out, you know,

1169
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 2: like like proper iPhones, like there's no playbook, right yeah,

1170
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:12,960
Speaker 2: so you just like creator in script. And then we

1171
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 2: have corrective scripts. This is the one where you say

1172
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 2: I don't like the way my family did this, or

1173
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 2: I don't like the thing I learned, and I'm going

1174
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 2: to do something different. And it's really exciting that we can,

1175
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 2: for example, literally sit down, write down the habits we

1176
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 2: don't like, the behaviors we don't like, identify where they

1177
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,919
Speaker 2: started in time, and decide on a new way of being.

1178
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 2: And I won't go into it now because I don't

1179
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,479
Speaker 2: know if we have time. But one of the really

1180
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 2: exciting things is one of the exciting things to learn

1181
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 2: is there is an issue that is we often try

1182
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:48,480
Speaker 2: and overcorrect those scripts. So parents were too strict, So

1183
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to be really lenient, which then leads to

1184
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 2: new issues, right, which often then leads the next generation

1185
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 2: to say, well, my parents didn't set any boundaries, so

1186
01:02:59,280 --> 01:02:59,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to come.

1187
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 1: So the generation the behaviors in the beautiful patterns.

1188
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 2: But we see it in politics. We see this over

1189
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 2: correcting everywhere. And a moment ago, I said, what's exciting

1190
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 2: and I don't really mean exciting, but what's exciting is

1191
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 2: when you think about these experiences from the position of

1192
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 2: these the scripts, sometimes we overcorrect. This is when we

1193
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,200
Speaker 2: can realize, Okay, I can choose a new way, I

1194
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 2: can find middle ground, I can decide not to overcorrect,

1195
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 2: and I can actually make a future for the generations

1196
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 2: to come that won't lead to this kind of pendulum

1197
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 2: swing front to back. This is how we genuinely will

1198
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 2: make change I think in the world, both politically, climate

1199
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 2: change wise, and in our kind of just like immediate family.

1200
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can. I can see the overcorrection playing

1201
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,680
Speaker 1: out in some parts of society right now. But that

1202
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,680
Speaker 1: that corrective because I as you started to talk in

1203
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: I was thinking about that and then you just started

1204
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: talking about corrective scripts. So is there some thing right?

1205
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 1: So let's take alcohol in the family or drugs in

1206
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 1: the family, and often you will see that beheave you're repeating,

1207
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: But then often you see somebody go the other way.

1208
01:04:13,160 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 1: Is there something that is consistent or tangible, whether it's

1209
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: a personality traitor or some other thing that causes one

1210
01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 1: person to replicate that behavior where the other person completely

1211
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 1: goes the other way. Is there anything consistent in here

1212
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 1: or is it a complex mix of things.

1213
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,800
Speaker 2: It's definitely a complex mix. It's definitely a complex mix

1214
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 2: because you can often see within the same family, siblings

1215
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 2: who were raised in the same environment by the same people,

1216
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 2: like enacting the same script, go in two completely different directions.

1217
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes that's because it was a conscious choice made early

1218
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 2: in life, and other times it may be because they

1219
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 2: had enough influence, for example, outside of the family or

1220
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 2: their DNA, so their actual temperament just simply isn't wired to.

1221
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: Be like that. Yeah, or maybe it's the age. And

1222
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 1: then the reason I asked that question, I've got a

1223
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: may Well obviously really me nameless, pretty hard upbringing parents

1224
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:25,480
Speaker 1: and both drug addicts heroin addicts. He was the older brother,

1225
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 1: and he tells stories about coming home with his younger

1226
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: brother and having to spin his parents around in these

1227
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 1: church because they had heroin needles. Stuck out of their arms.

1228
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 1: They both died of heroin overdoses, and my mate went

1229
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: on to become an officer in the British Armed Forces

1230
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 1: and his younger brother became a heroin addict who he

1231
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 1: is constantly rescuing. So that made me think, like, is

1232
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: it something in somebody's personality outside in You rightly said

1233
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:07,360
Speaker 1: outside influences, because often they just need that one mentor

1234
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: who's outside the family, right, But it also just struck

1235
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 1: me it could have been the IgE and that maturity

1236
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: whenever he kind of had the wherewithal to go this

1237
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: is wrong, or maybe the sense of responsibility that he

1238
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 1: had for his younger brother could have been one of

1239
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:25,760
Speaker 1: those things, right, a number of things.

1240
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And sibling position is really interesting in terms of

1241
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 2: the way that shapes our personality too. So it's just

1242
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:38,680
Speaker 2: I find humans utterly fascinating. There are so many factors

1243
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 2: that can shape who we are and what we do.

1244
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 2: And if we kind of go full circle to the

1245
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 2: beginning of our conversation and we realize that at the moment,

1246
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 2: maybe we're only fully present to kind of fifty something,

1247
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 2: maybe less than that percent of our lives, imagine the

1248
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 2: capability the capacity that we would have if we kind

1249
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 2: of got aware, if we decided to notice what patterns

1250
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 2: we're replicating that we do want and we don't want.

1251
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,720
Speaker 2: If we decided, you know, I'm going to figure out

1252
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 2: who I actually want to be. I'm going to surround

1253
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 2: myself by people who are going to support that, and

1254
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 2: I am going to create an environment that sets me

1255
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 2: up for success. How exciting would that be? It's just,

1256
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 2: you know, humans are amazing, amazing people. I'm always amazed

1257
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 2: by their capacity to survive. But yeah, sometimes we need

1258
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 2: a little bit of a nudge in the right direction.

1259
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 1: We do, we absolutely do. And I think for anybody

1260
01:07:29,720 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: who is struggling wants to become a better version of

1261
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 1: themselves or are just wants to become on stuck, and

1262
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 1: I think you've got a brilliant resource. And I'm not

1263
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,000
Speaker 1: just blowing smoke up your arse, as we used to

1264
01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:49,280
Speaker 1: say in Northern Ireland. It is I like to call

1265
01:07:49,320 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 1: myself a procademic. Yours your book is a true procademic book,

1266
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 1: right because it's got all the research, but it's just

1267
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:02,560
Speaker 1: written in such a way that makes really good understanding.

1268
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 1: And people just go, oh shit, oh fuck, oh that's me.

1269
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: Oh that's me. But what I really like about it

1270
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: is it's not just a here's why you do what

1271
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 1: you do your muppet, but it's also here's what you

1272
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 1: can do about it, which is what I really like it.

1273
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:24,920
Speaker 1: And it's all laid out there. So I highly recommend

1274
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:29,280
Speaker 1: all of the readers to go and buy Unstuck. It's

1275
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:31,400
Speaker 1: going to be very soon. It's not not quite yet.

1276
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 1: I think it's next week, is it?

1277
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, next week's second of June.

1278
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:41,679
Speaker 1: Twenty second of June, next week. And you also have

1279
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:46,000
Speaker 1: a book on how to be a human that you

1280
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 1: know that appeals a manual for being human? I like that,

1281
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 1: I do you know. I nearly called my book Man's

1282
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 1: called Death by Comfort, Why modern life is killing us

1283
01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: and what we need to do about it. It was

1284
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 1: almost called a survival guide for the modern words, right,

1285
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:07,680
Speaker 1: and so that manual. We all need a bit of manuals.

1286
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: And having a manual written by somebody who really understands

1287
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:16,440
Speaker 1: human behavior. I think that beautiful combination of psychology and neuroscience.

1288
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 1: It just makes so much sense to people. So where

1289
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 1: can people find out more about doctor sof and all

1290
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,720
Speaker 1: of your little links?

1291
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 2: Perfect? So I have an Instagram and it's at underscore

1292
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 2: dr sof so Underscore d R s Oph. I used

1293
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 2: to joke about who is at dr SOF. I don't

1294
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:41,800
Speaker 2: know who this person is, and I still to this

1295
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 2: day don't know who they are. But I have now

1296
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 2: reached the point where I'm like, it's okay, you can

1297
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 2: have doctor Soph. I'm fine about it. So I have

1298
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:51,400
Speaker 2: an Instagram where I share mostly daily, and then my

1299
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 2: website doctor soap dot com so d R s oph

1300
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:57,240
Speaker 2: dot com where you can find my newsletter sign up,

1301
01:09:57,280 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 2: and I send out bi weekly emails that include blogs

1302
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 2: that are always procademic. I love that word. So we'll

1303
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:07,559
Speaker 2: give you tangible takeaways, and it normally shares something kind

1304
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 2: of nuanced, something new, and something I always say it's

1305
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 2: nuanced new borrowed blue, so blue is normally something like

1306
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 2: a fun lu joke at the end, and the new

1307
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 2: is some kind of tipbit about something that's come out

1308
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 2: in research that week. But it will give you some

1309
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,799
Speaker 2: practical skills to take away and then you can double

1310
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 2: in the world of mental health productivity and just finding

1311
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 2: out who you really are.

1312
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, geezing into the abyss. Love it and doctor so

1313
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:37,599
Speaker 1: thank you for taking a time of an evening, a hot,

1314
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 1: sweaty evening and lighty. Nobody's going to be able to

1315
01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: get any sleep tonight because nobody's going to our conditioning

1316
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:46,479
Speaker 1: in the UK for good reasons, and.

1317
01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:49,679
Speaker 2: They've probably sold out of fans. I mean, it's just wild.

1318
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 2: It's just a wild ride of lighty right now. But anyway,

1319
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 2: thank you so much for having me on. Honestly, this

1320
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 2: was a delight now.

1321
01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:58,760
Speaker 1: It was awesome, and I really love the fact that

1322
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:00,960
Speaker 1: we did the whole podcast with you sitting on the floor.

1323
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 1: That's just cool.

1324
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 2: Don't telling me what.

1325
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 1: I will definitely have you on again at some stage

1326
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:12,960
Speaker 1: at doctor self. That has been absolutely brilliant. Thank you

1327
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 1: very much.

1328
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:48,840
Speaker 2: Thank you. Have a lovely day.