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Speaker 1: I get a team. Welcome to another installment of the

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Speaker 1: You Project. Craig Anthony Harper reporting in for duty for

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Speaker 1: the two thousandth and something time. That's a lot. I

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Speaker 1: should have a break, I might have my first beer.

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Speaker 1: Who knows joining me on the show today is a newbie,

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Speaker 1: brand newb fresh. He's fresh and he looks fresh. I

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Speaker 1: was just saying to him, I saw him seven ye well,

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Speaker 1: I saw him doing it. I didn't see him seven

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Speaker 1: years ago. I saw him very recently doing a Ted

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Speaker 1: talk seven years ago, and I think he looks younger

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Speaker 1: seven years later. So I don't know what that's about.

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Speaker 1: We might find out. But Professor Caleb Warren joins us, Hime, mate,

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Speaker 1: how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm great, Thanks for having me today.

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Speaker 1: What's the Benjamin Button thing you got going on? What's

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Speaker 1: that about?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it's a faulty zoom filter.

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Speaker 1: He going, all right, Hey, can you give my listeners

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Speaker 1: a snapshot of rather than me read some bio that

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Speaker 1: I ripped off the interwebs, could you tell us a

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Speaker 1: bit about you, you and your research and your background.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 3: So, I am a professor of marketing at the University

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Speaker 3: of Arizona.

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Speaker 2: I was started studying.

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Speaker 3: I studied consumer psychology, which is a sub field of

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Speaker 3: marketing for my PhD. And during that time I was

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Speaker 3: really interested and since that time, I've been interested in

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Speaker 3: this couple questions, including largely what makes things cool and

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Speaker 3: what makes things funny? So these are my two main

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Speaker 3: areas of research. More recently, as I've started mentoring students,

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Speaker 3: I've branched out into a lot of different areas in

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Speaker 3: the marketing and psychology spaces that are questions more driven

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Speaker 3: by them and their interests. So a number of projects

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Speaker 3: on emotions, nostalgia, anxiety, more recently on AI. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's that's that's a brief version.

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Speaker 1: I guess that's an emergent area of analysis. Like II,

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Speaker 1: not from the point of technology, but from the point

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Speaker 1: of psychology. How we interface and interact and connect and

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Speaker 1: dare I say, build relationships with and fall in love

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Speaker 1: with fall in love with? Oh my god?

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Speaker 3: If you're interested in that, I'll hook you up with

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Speaker 3: my PhD student who's leading all those projects and he's

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Speaker 3: he's fantastic. Wow, I'd love to be a good he'd

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Speaker 3: be a good conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's it's kind of. It's really interesting. I know,

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Speaker 1: even with my just general chats with chat GPT five

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Speaker 1: point two or whatever it is, at the moment, it

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Speaker 1: talks like me. It it talks Hey, Craig, what's up,

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Speaker 1: says Hey Craig, what's up, and it'll swear like unprompted

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Speaker 1: by me, it'll swear it'll say, oh, that's fucked up.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, dude, I don't know that your program to

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Speaker 1: say this, but.

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Speaker 2: It's like it just, you know, probably programmed to mirror

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Speaker 2: you to some extent.

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Speaker 1: You know, and I yes, if you've got shitty self

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Speaker 1: esteem and you're a bit lonely, or you feel a

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Speaker 1: bit isolated or disconnected, and you know, this thing kind

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Speaker 1: of reinforces what you want or need reinforced, or it

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Speaker 1: speaks in inverted commas in a way that makes you

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Speaker 1: feel something positive even though you obviously know it's it's

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Speaker 1: a it's an AI, it's I guess it's understandable. No

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Speaker 1: exactly exactly. So what's so? I'm obviously every problem everybody

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Speaker 1: probably hits you up about the coolness thing. I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in that, but I feel like you've probably spoken to

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Speaker 1: death about that, right.

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Speaker 3: I'm I think there's still a lot more to talk about.

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Speaker 3: But I'm happy to talk about any any topic that

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Speaker 3: I'm informed on. And if you want to ask about

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Speaker 3: something I don't know much about, I'll say I don't

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Speaker 3: know much about and then bullshit a little.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, perfect, all right. Well we'll start with

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Speaker 1: a thing that you've spoken the most about, because I

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Speaker 1: haven't and my audience hasn't heard it, I guess, or

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Speaker 1: most of them. Man, So is there a definitive kind

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Speaker 1: of explanation for coolness, because, as you kind of were

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Speaker 1: inferring in your ted talk, my cool could be your

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Speaker 1: cringe or vice versa, or the thing that you desire

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Speaker 1: is the thing that I fucking hate, or the thing

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Speaker 1: that's socially acceptable could be socially repellent in another group.

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Speaker 2: Well, that that can happen.

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Speaker 3: But what I found, the more recent research that I

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Speaker 3: did was looking at the personality, traits and characteristics of

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Speaker 3: cool people around the world. We got data from twelve

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Speaker 3: different countries thirteen regions of both Hong Kong and mainland China,

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Speaker 3: and the surprising finding for me was we found the

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Speaker 3: same types of people are cool everywhere. So even though

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Speaker 3: the details might differ like the specific product or a

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Speaker 3: musician or person that change people think is cool might

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Speaker 3: be different than people in Turkey. What we see is

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Speaker 3: if you abstract up a level, like what personality do

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Speaker 3: these people have?

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Speaker 2: These cool people have, it's the same everywhere.

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Speaker 3: And what we found is that and what we're looking

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Speaker 3: at is both cool. How is cool different from not cool?

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Speaker 3: And how is cool different from good? So it's not

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Speaker 3: just purely positive. And we saw the same six characteristics

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Speaker 3: in cool people around the world, being adventurous, open, and autonomous.

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Speaker 2: So these three kind of fit together.

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Speaker 3: People who go their own way, they try new things,

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Speaker 3: they're open to new ideas and experiences. They're not they're

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Speaker 3: not doing things just for rewards. They're doing them out

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Speaker 3: of and sort of this ctrinsic motivation. And then the

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Speaker 3: other three characteristics we found are that they're extroverted, they're hedonistic,

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Speaker 3: so they pursue immediate pleasure rather than long term, long

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Speaker 3: term payouts.

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Speaker 2: And they're powerful.

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Speaker 3: And so there are a lot of other traits that

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Speaker 3: are positive, but they're not they're not distinctly cool. So

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Speaker 3: being agreeable, being conscientious, being warm, being calm, which is

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Speaker 3: sometimes associated with being cool, is actually seen more as

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Speaker 3: a good trait than a cool trait, and being traditional, secure, conforming.

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Speaker 3: These things are are not cool, but they are good.

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Speaker 1: What about attractiveness.

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Speaker 3: We didn't measure that, but I'm guessing so that's a

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Speaker 3: very positive trait. So there's two possibilities. It could be

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Speaker 3: equally cool and good, so capable. One trait we have

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Speaker 3: we found is it's cool, but it's also good and

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Speaker 3: it's both things in equal measure, so it could be

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Speaker 3: that or it could be more cool than good. We

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Speaker 3: could we had to limit what we could measure, and

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Speaker 3: so we basically took We took two established scales. There's

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Speaker 3: the Big five personality traits, which is why you heard

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Speaker 3: about being extroverted. One are the other ones, so extroversion, openness,

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Speaker 3: neuroticism come as the opposite of neuroticism, conscientiousness, and agreeableness.

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Speaker 3: So those are the Big five, and then the other

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Speaker 3: ten are from a scale developed by a scholar named

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Speaker 3: Schwartz that looks at sort of universal values that's been

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Speaker 3: studied across cultures too. So we kind of flip these

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Speaker 3: scales rather than have people measure, rather than measuring these

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Speaker 3: things about themselves, like I'm extroverted versus introverted. We had

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Speaker 3: we had people measure another person, either a person that

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Speaker 3: they thought was cool or a person they thought was

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Speaker 3: not cool, or a person they thought was good or

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Speaker 3: a person they thought was not good. And then we

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Speaker 3: could look at the differences between cool people and the

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Speaker 3: other types of people.

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Speaker 1: And do marketing people, branding people try to consciously operationalize

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Speaker 1: cool for commercial I'm guessing that.

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Speaker 3: I do, yes, and they, I mean they used to

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Speaker 3: pay consultants a lot of money for that.

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Speaker 2: Like these cool hunters.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the cool hunters. What do you do a cool hunter?

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Speaker 1: What does that well sit down? Brian?

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure. They probably go by different names now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But one point of this research is a lot

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Speaker 3: of the people in the sort of cool hunting industry,

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Speaker 3: at least when it started, would say, oh, cool is mysterious.

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Speaker 2: You know what, you know what when you see it, but.

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Speaker 3: Only cool people know it, and so you can't even

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Speaker 3: try to you can't even try.

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Speaker 2: You just need to trust cool people.

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Speaker 3: So they're kind of saying like, this is our turf,

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Speaker 3: no one else can understand it. And what I'm trying

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Speaker 3: to do with my research is show like this is

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Speaker 3: something that anybody can understand and study with the right

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Speaker 3: methods or the right tools, And largely the way to

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Speaker 3: do it is just by measuring what people think is cool,

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Speaker 3: because it doesn't matter how the dictionary, it doesn't matter

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Speaker 3: how I or anyone else defines what cool is.

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Speaker 2: What matters is what people, if.

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Speaker 3: You're talking of marketing, the market or consumers perceive to

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Speaker 3: be cool. And if people agree that, you know, I

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Speaker 3: don't know the weekend is cool, then he's cool.

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Speaker 2: People don't think the weekend's cool, then he's not.

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Speaker 3: And where it gets complicated is that if you take

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Speaker 3: a look at different market segments, some of them think

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Speaker 3: the weekend is cool and some don't.

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Speaker 1: And what's hilarious right now is half my audience to like,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean the weekend? Do you mean Saturday

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Speaker 1: and Sunday?

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Speaker 2: That it worked for either.

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Speaker 1: Is a is there a kind of a scale of

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Speaker 1: cool where too much cool becomes off putting? Or like

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Speaker 1: is there a metric around it where we go we

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Speaker 1: want them to be cool, but we don't want them

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Speaker 1: to be intimidating because people will disconnect, not connect, or

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Speaker 1: not really identify.

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Speaker 2: I have it seen.

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen anyone who's suffered or any brand that

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Speaker 3: suffered from being seen as too cool.

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Speaker 2: Now there are.

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Speaker 3: Situations where we don't want cool brands or cool people.

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Speaker 3: I don't want my parents to be cool. I want

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Speaker 3: them to be good people. I want them to be reliable,

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Speaker 3: I want them to care. But I don't think that's

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Speaker 3: an issue of being too cool. I mean, I think

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Speaker 3: that could be an issue of lacking things that are

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Speaker 3: not cool that are valued more.

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Speaker 1: Yes, if you had to give me cool in the

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Speaker 1: context that we're talking about, if you had to give

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Speaker 1: me a synonym for cool, what would it be.

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Speaker 2: That's hard.

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Speaker 3: There's always synonyms that in slang especially, but those go

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Speaker 3: in and out of fashion all the time. So if

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Speaker 3: you go to the look back sick yeah, hip in

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Speaker 3: the fifties, Yes, sick more recently, rad in the eighties,

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Speaker 3: which that one's come back a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit fire and for your time, bro groovy groovy Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that one's probably from the sixties too. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So there's different synonyms that pop up, and they go

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Speaker 3: in and out of fashion. The reason I think studying

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Speaker 3: cool is important, the reason I think it's not just

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Speaker 3: another word without that doesn't represent a bigger and more

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Speaker 3: important concept is people have been using this word fairly

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Speaker 3: consistently since at least the nineteen fifties. Yes, and now

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Speaker 3: they use this word without translating it all around the world,

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Speaker 3: which is how we did these studies. We would translate

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Speaker 3: all the other words in our surveys and we wouldn't

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Speaker 3: translate the word cool, because whether the participant was in

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Speaker 3: Nigeria or South Korea, or Australia or Germany or Spain,

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Speaker 3: they all knew what cool meant. And also it as

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Speaker 3: the same types of people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what do we do we know? And by

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Speaker 1: way I mean you? Of course I don't. Do we

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Speaker 1: know the etymology of the term in this conceptual kind

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Speaker 1: of framework, like where did the when did we first

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Speaker 1: start using it? From? Where did it come?

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Speaker 3: I shouldn't know this better than I do. I've read

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Speaker 3: this multiple times, but I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember. I don't remember about what I wrote.

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Speaker 3: There's a there's a debate about it, and some have

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Speaker 3: argued that this idea of kool came over from West

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Speaker 3: Africa on the slave ships as this sort of underground

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Speaker 3: language and emotional expression that slaves did to sort of

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Speaker 3: hide to speak to one another while hiding meaning from

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Speaker 3: their masters.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm not sure how much evidence there is

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Speaker 2: for this.

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Speaker 3: I think what what is fairly uncontroversial is that people

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Speaker 3: in sort of these jazz subcultures, jazz and bohemian subcultures

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Speaker 3: in the forties and fifties started using the word regularly,

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Speaker 3: and it's and to mean something similar to the way

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Speaker 3: we've used the word since. And it might have come

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Speaker 3: from this idea of emotional restraint, like the opposite of hot.

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Speaker 2: Although all the data I.

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Speaker 3: Have gathered about the way this word is used now

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Speaker 3: is it does not mean that. I have a lot

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Speaker 3: of data showing that people who are emotionally expressive are

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Speaker 3: seen as being more cool than those who are inexpressive.

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Speaker 3: So cool, if it ever meant this no longer does.

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Speaker 1: When I first started, like week one of my PhDa,

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Speaker 1: my pH day is on metaperception, you know, the way

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Speaker 1: that other people perceive and experience us, right, So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of under the umbrella of self awareness, social awareness,

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Speaker 1: situational awareness, so that stuff. And I remember thinking, I

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Speaker 1: wonder when the first kind of the first things were

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Speaker 1: written about self awareness, like what's the early research, right,

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Speaker 1: And I went, it's probably like one hundred years ago,

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties or thirties, because psychology as a field

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Speaker 1: is not that old as we have it now, right,

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Speaker 1: even though it's kind of been around.

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Speaker 2: The philosophers who talked about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well be for it. I think Socrates said to

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Speaker 1: know thyself as the beginning of wisdom, right, And I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: well that was twenty three hundred years ago or something,

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Speaker 1: And I went, so, I'm not doing anything new. I'm

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Speaker 1: not asking any new questions. Well, a couple of new questions,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I wonder how long people have been Like

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Speaker 1: when you opened the door on researching this, did you

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Speaker 1: just go into an academic search engine and go research

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Speaker 1: on cool and nothing came up?

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Speaker 3: There wasn't very much, which is so rare as I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you know, when I first started studying this, I

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Speaker 3: could probably say that I had read everything that had

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Speaker 3: been written on the topic, at least by scholars, yes,

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Speaker 3: which you know, in what area can you possibly say?

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Speaker 3: I can't say that anymore because there's been a lot

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Speaker 3: more research the last ten to fifteen years. But you know,

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Speaker 3: to understand this, I wasn't looking mostly at research on coolness.

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Speaker 3: I was looking instead at research on like social status

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Speaker 3: and autonomy, and on social perception and impressions and stat

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Speaker 3: and sort of how social influence or these other these

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Speaker 3: other topics that were related to it, to try to understand,

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Speaker 3: you know, what is this what is this phenomenon that

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Speaker 3: I see that seems to be driving a lot of

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Speaker 3: the behavior out there. There was an Onion article published

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Speaker 3: right around when I was finishing my PhD that said

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Speaker 3: something like consumers spend thirty trillion dollars each year. Report

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Speaker 3: says consumers spend thirty trillion dollars each year trying to

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Speaker 3: be cool. Yeah, yeah, this is a satire newspaper, but

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Speaker 3: it is you know, that's something that taps into a

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Speaker 3: truth that most of us feel. But then the question

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Speaker 3: is like, well, what is this thing that's cool? How

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Speaker 3: do things become cool? And so that's what that's what

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Speaker 3: I've been working on the last it's been twenty years now.

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Speaker 1: Like for almost everything in psychology, there's a style, right,

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Speaker 1: So I developed a style for matter accuracy and behavior

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Speaker 1: emotional cognitive. It's kind of full dominds ten different kind

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Speaker 1: of criteria blah blah blah, and everything seems to be

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Speaker 1: on a scale. Is there a coolness style? Can we

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Speaker 1: measure it?

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Speaker 3: There are there are, no There are many coolness scales,

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Speaker 3: one that I contributed myself. Honestly though, I think one

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Speaker 3: of the best, the probably the most powerful way to

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Speaker 3: measure it is just how cool is this person?

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Speaker 2: Brand?

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Speaker 3: Thingten like from uncool to cool on a single item

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Speaker 3: scale that works pretty well. For there are scales developed

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Speaker 3: specifically to measure cool technologies. There are scales to measure

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Speaker 3: cool fashions. I worked on a scale to measure cool brands. Really,

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Speaker 3: what we're if you just want to measure whether the

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Speaker 3: brand is cool, the one item thing works better. But

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Speaker 3: what we were looking at there is what are the

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Speaker 3: characteristics of cool brands? And so we identified we identified

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Speaker 3: ten different characteristics are I don't want to call them subdimensions,

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Speaker 3: but they're kind of cool. Brands have more of these

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Speaker 3: characteristics than not cool brands, and increasing any of these

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Speaker 3: characteristics tends to make their brand cooler.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to hear what those are? Or is

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Speaker 2: that two in the week?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? No, definitely, definitely. I want I want to know

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Speaker 1: to think, well, yeah, let's start with that. Tell me, so,

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Speaker 1: what are the cool brands?

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Speaker 2: So? For cool the characteristics of cool brands.

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Speaker 3: Now, I will say one thing is that when we

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Speaker 3: were doing this, we weren't specifically distinguishing cool from favorable

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Speaker 3: or good. So a lot of these it's not clear

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Speaker 3: to what extent this makes brands distinctly cool rather than

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Speaker 3: just positive.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: With that said, the characteristics we came up with were

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Speaker 3: being extraordinary, which just seems to me just like straight positive,

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Speaker 3: high status, esthetically appealing.

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Speaker 2: So there's the attractiveness you mentioned before.

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Speaker 3: Rebellious, original, authentic, subcultural, end popular. Now this is because

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Speaker 3: cool has a life cycle, and I think this is

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Speaker 3: tapping into two different times in the life cycle. Cool

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Speaker 3: brands start to start off as subcultural and end up

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Speaker 3: becoming popular and finally iconic and energetic. So like high energy, enthusiastic,

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Speaker 3: exciting might fit there. Yes, and so with I'll also

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Speaker 3: say one more thing about rebellion, which is like that

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Speaker 3: can go too far. I've found that in my other

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Speaker 3: research is I don't think you can be too cool,

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Speaker 3: but you can definitely be too rebellious to be cool,

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Speaker 3: especially if people don't think if people don't think they're rebellion.

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Speaker 3: So like to take to take an example, you know.

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Speaker 2: Someone who.

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Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein, you know, a child molester, child pornographer, is

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Speaker 3: very rebellious, but they're not going to seem cool. And

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Speaker 3: it can even be more mundane, like someone who just

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Speaker 3: sort of, I don't know, spits on a car on

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Speaker 3: the street probably wouldn't seem cool because the rebellion and

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Speaker 3: really the autonomy, which is sort of the higher level

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Speaker 3: factor I think is driving a lot of coolness needs

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Speaker 3: to seem appropriate, and that it offers sort of a

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Speaker 3: different way that people could behave and might want others

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Speaker 3: to behave.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I remember. I'm going to be a little

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Speaker 1: vague on this, but did you read Blake by Malcolm.

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Speaker 2: Gladwell, yes, but not recently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sign with me. But I remember him talking about

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Speaker 1: this story of I think hush puppies were like in

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Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, you know those shoes He.

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Speaker 2: Talks about that.

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Speaker 3: He talks about that in his New Yorker article The

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Speaker 3: Cool Hunt, which he wrote nineteen ninety seven. That's the

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Speaker 3: first thing I found written about coolness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, do you want to tell my listeners

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Speaker 1: that story because I'll probably fuck it up? So you

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Speaker 1: feel oh, all right?

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Speaker 2: Well, so in the Cool Hunt.

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Speaker 3: Gladwell was looking at this practice of cool hunting and

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Speaker 3: he found these sort of consultants who were pretty young

365
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Speaker 3: at the time, twenties maybe young thirties in New York

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Speaker 3: City in the mid nineties, and they were tracking trends

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Speaker 3: and one trend they were tracking was hush puppies were

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Speaker 3: so I think this type of shoe that had gone

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Speaker 3: out of fashion a while ago and had come back

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Speaker 3: into fashion because it was being worn by cool people

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Speaker 3: in New York. So these would probably be like early hipsters,

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Speaker 3: back before hipsters were everywhere, and this is the nineties.

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Speaker 3: And he told the story about how these brands that

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Speaker 3: went from being unfashionable to being one of the hottest

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Speaker 3: trends on the market because cool people were adopting it.

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Speaker 3: And Gladwell's initial theory of coolness is it's just this

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Speaker 3: meaning transfer thing. So brands become cool because cool people

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Speaker 3: use them, and then other people get the brand because

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Speaker 3: they want to be cool themselves, and so the cool

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Speaker 3: transfers from the brand to the people initially, but then

381
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Speaker 3: the really cool people who started the trend don't want

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Speaker 3: to be associated with all the normies who've tried since

383
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Speaker 3: adopted a brand like Hushpuppies, and so they move on

384
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Speaker 3: to the next thing, and the next thing they're wearing

385
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Speaker 3: like Babe or Supreme or something that becomes that becomes

386
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Speaker 3: too popular to be cool, and so they move on

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Speaker 3: to something else.

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Speaker 1: I reckonomize the epitome of something that just objectively who's objective, right,

389
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Speaker 1: but seemingly objectively who was not an objective thing? Exactly right?

390
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Speaker 1: And obviously everything I say is a subjective interpretation, right,

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Speaker 1: but seemingly to a lot of people, the least cool

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Speaker 1: shoes in the world are or were Crocs, but they're

393
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Speaker 1: even still like I see the kids out in them now, teenagers,

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Speaker 1: young people or people in their early twenties. I don't

395
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: know about in the States, but in Australia they still

396
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 1: get a good run, like super popular. I'm like, how

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Speaker 1: on earth is that ugly ass looking piece of footwear

398
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Speaker 1: so popular?

399
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure how cool it is even if

400
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 2: it's popular.

401
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 3: I mean it's functional, especially if you're in and out

402
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 3: of the water or.

403
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 2: That's on temperature. Cool for that too easy to clean.

404
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I think, you know, I think there we

405
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: don't study this, we don't measure this. Explicitly, but I'm

406
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 3: pretty sure there's a I mean, this is true for

407
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 3: most status products. There's a negative correlation between how functional

408
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 3: it is and how good it is at signaling coolness

409
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 3: or other forms of status, because the less functional something is,

410
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 3: the harder it is for many people to adopt, and

411
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 3: of too many people adopt something, it no longer signals

412
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 3: status or coolness.

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00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 2: If we're talking about coolness specifically.

414
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: The video that I saw you on earlier, which was

415
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: seven years ago, you were talking, you were talking about

416
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 1: similar things. I wonder how like, I'm thinking about twenty

417
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: and eighteen now, and while there was online shopping, it

418
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: was pretty it was in its infancy compared to where

419
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: we're at now, and I suspect most people in twenty

420
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: eighteen went to stores and bought the things that were

421
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 1: going to buy most people. That's definitely changing. Has that

422
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: impacted coolness or perception of coolness, Like the fact that

423
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: we now do so much stuff online and it's becoming,

424
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Speaker 1: you know, to the point now where there are retail

425
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: businesses in Australia that only operate online now that used

426
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Speaker 1: to have bricks and mortar shop fronts.

427
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 3: I don't know, I haven't thought about that. I think

428
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 3: the way you're going to need to signal cool is

429
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 3: going to change. Obviously it's going to depend less on

430
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 3: the in person experience, but it might depend more on

431
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 3: the signs on your website. It might depend less on

432
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 3: the product itself and more on who's endorsing it. Especially

433
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,719
Speaker 3: if your main marketing strategy is social media, or if

434
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 3: you're trying to get you know, you're using lots of

435
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 3: influencer marketing that type of thing, then it's really going

436
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 3: to depend more on the coolness of whoever's promoting your

437
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 3: stuff rather than the stuff itself or what's in the store.

438
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,360
Speaker 1: What's the least I mean, again, this is just an opinion,

439
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: but it's also research, I guess, but the least cool,

440
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: or the least functional, or the least what's what? Am

441
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: I saying? The worst product that you've seen that's really cool?

442
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 1: Like where you like? That just doesn't from a functional

443
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: point of view or doing what it's intended point of view,

444
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 1: it really doesn't make sense. But nonetheless people love it.

445
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: It's perceived as cool. Is there anything that springs to mind?

446
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, nothing springs to mind.

447
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 3: A lot of times, it helps to have some something

448
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 3: of tangible value so that people can attribute. People don't

449
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 3: want to seem like they're doing something just because they

450
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: want to be cool, and so it helps to have

451
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 3: something else to attribute why you're buying it, for the

452
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 3: reason you're buying it. For instance, look at like expensive

453
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 3: designer genes. Most people.

454
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: I remember my.

455
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 3: Sister when she was a teenager, she's some grown out

456
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 3: of the stage, would insist on getting like two hundred

457
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 3: dollars jeans or one hundred dollars designer genes, and it

458
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 3: was clearly a status thing. They were cool in her

459
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 3: high school and she wanted that, but it was she

460
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 3: would say, it's because they fit better, they've hit better,

461
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 3: and then you know they had some like stretching material

462
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 3: that so the value came from being cool, but having

463
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 3: this extra function let her talk about it and claim

464
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 3: that it was that was the reason she was buying

465
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 3: this product.

466
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: Which so there are I'm sure there are.

467
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 3: Examples of brands and products that are cool without the function,

468
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: But I think what's more common is something is cool

469
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: and there is something something functional or some of something

470
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 3: else that's causing value that helps people sort of justify

471
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,479
Speaker 3: whatever it is they're doing, not in terms of seeking

472
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 3: coolness or just seeking status.

473
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 1: I feel like nobody that I'm well, most of the

474
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 1: people that I work in the fitness industry, a bit

475
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: corporate space, a lot and a lot of corporate speaking.

476
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: And I guess no companies and no brands want to

477
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: be less cool, and no people want to be less cool.

478
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: Although for some people, of course it's not really a

479
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: thing and it's not a consideration, but can people I

480
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: feel like people who want to become like, trying to

481
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: be cool is the uncoolest thing. Is there a clunky

482
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: a way that's less clunky or less awkward, or less

483
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 1: socially repellent where people can actually become cooler. It's like

484
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: trying to impress people is wildly unimpressive, because it's pretty obvious.

485
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, Well, to be cool, you need to seem autonomous,

486
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 3: meaning like you need to seem like whatever it is

487
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 3: you're doing, you're doing that out of an intrinsic interest.

488
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: And usually it helps to be doing something different than

489
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 3: what others are doing.

490
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 1: Yea.

491
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: And so if you are.

492
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 3: If people think you're doing something just to be cool,

493
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 3: that undermines the coolness of it. I ran some experiments

494
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 3: with my brother who's also a marketing professor, Nathan Warren

495
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 3: at the Buy Norwegian School of Management. And this here

496
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 3: we looked at we were comparing coolness to wealth, a

497
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 3: sort of two different status systems. You can have status

498
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 3: by becoming wealthy, you can have status by being cool.

499
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 3: And we were comparing people who are wealthy because they

500
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: worked hard and tried versus wealthy without trying, without working

501
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: hard for it, and people who are cool because they

502
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 3: worked hard and tried to be cool. And people are

503
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 3: cool without effort effortlessly yes, and so we get this

504
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: nice crossover. And we're looking at how much people are

505
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,239
Speaker 3: respected or looked up to, basically how much status they

506
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 3: get for it.

507
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: And with wealth, people get more status.

508
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: They're more respected when they are wealthy through effort because

509
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: they try. But with coolness it flips so you're less

510
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: you're less respected, you're less looked up to, you have

511
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: less status if you're cool because you're trying to be cool.

512
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: And part of that is because people don't think you

513
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 3: are as cool.

514
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: It's when when students enroll in your program, what's their

515
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: motivation is it? Is it because it's part of their

516
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: marketing degree or their psychology degree, So it's just a

517
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: component or are they compelled to understand the field or

518
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: understand that kind of construct.

519
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: Well, I don't have very many students who are studying coolness.

520
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 2: So that's kind of that's my thing.

521
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 3: I'd love to take on a PhD student who wants

522
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 3: to study this topic, but so far they've been largely

523
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: focusing on other things. So the students I teach are

524
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 3: if they join PhD programs for what variety reasons, and

525
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: then the other programs I teach, it's probably they're not

526
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 3: at all interested in research because these are NBA programs

527
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: or master's programs or undergraduate programs in marketing.

528
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: All right, I'll tell you what I'm going to do.

529
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: I've been chicily doing something and this is purely just

530
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: an exercise and fun. I'm going to give you ten

531
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: famous people and you're going to tell me cool or not? Ready?

532
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 2: Oh boy? All right?

533
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: Okay? Donald Trump.

534
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: Republicans think he's cool, but no one else does. Elon

535
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: musk Oh, So he's an interesting one because I think he,

536
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 3: more than most people, really really wants to be cool.

537
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: Clues motherfucker.

538
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: Ever, and he he's and it's become so obvious and

539
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 3: that he's basically if you ask me this five years ago, yeah,

540
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 3: I think people would have said, yeah, he's he's very cool,

541
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 3: because he is.

542
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 2: He is kind of rebellious, he doesn't follow the rules.

543
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: He's been really innovative, you know, bringing Tesla back and

544
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: starting these companies, But over especially the last couple of years,

545
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 3: like he's just sort of like he's sucked up to

546
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 3: the president's He basically took over Twitter and kicked everybody

547
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 3: he disagreed with off and like became like arguably he's

548
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 3: started sympathizing with Nazis. I mean, it's what he's done lately.

549
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 3: And then and then he split with Trump. So even

550
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 3: the Republicans who maybe thought he was cool while he

551
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: was running Doge don't anymore either. So I think right

552
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: now there's a very few people. It's an empirical question

553
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: we need to ask. My guests would be Elon Musk

554
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: would probably score one of the lowest of all the

555
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 3: people you could get on the coolness scale, after being

556
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: one of the highest five years ago. I bet he

557
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 3: has the biggest change of anyone in the world over

558
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 3: the last five years.

559
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: Number three on my list is Francis good Luck answering that.

560
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: I mean, if your references other popes, I would say

561
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 3: pretty cool.

562
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: Yea.

563
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 3: He broke from a lot of the tradition. He modernized

564
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 3: some of the practices. I so it's always like what

565
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 3: are you what are you comparing this person to? And

566
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 3: if your reference group is other popes, I bet he's

567
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 3: going to score about as high as you get if

568
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 3: you did a if you did a pool measuring like

569
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: how cool are all the popes? I guess is Pope

570
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 3: Francis would appear towards the top. Yeah, But if you

571
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: compare them to like rock stars, who knows, like that's yeah,

572
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 3: that's not really, that's not really, that's hard hard to do,

573
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: all right.

574
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: I don't even know if you're not. I'm sure you do.

575
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 3: But Cristiano Ronaldo, Yeah, I think there's a lot of

576
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 3: people who think he's cool. He's the highest paid influencer

577
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: in the world at least a time. Sometimes it goes

578
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: back and forth between him and like a gener or someone.

579
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 3: But there's definitely a lot of people who think he's cool.

580
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 3: I'm not one of them, but plenty of people think

581
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 3: he's cool.

582
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Tyler Swift.

583
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 3: Taylor Swift is incredibly popular, and because there's this really

584
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: close association with positivity and coolness, and so she would

585
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 3: probably score if you just ask people straight up how

586
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: cool is Taylor Swift, she'd score very high.

587
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: But there's because she's so popular.

588
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 3: There's a lot of people who don't think she's cool

589
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 3: in part because she's so popular, And even the people

590
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 3: who like her, if you force them to sort of

591
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: distinguish cool from just good or positive, I bet she'd

592
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 3: fall more on the positive side.

593
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

594
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 3: A lot of her traits and the reasons that I

595
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: think she connects so well with her audience and with

596
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 3: so many people, are that she has this very sort

597
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 3: of good girl image in that she seems very caring

598
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 3: and thoughtful and you know, emotion like emotionally present. And

599
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 3: so I suspect she's she's very positive on coolness, it's

600
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 3: somewhere in the middle, less cool than she has positive,

601
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 3: But I mean, she's she's sold a ton of albums,

602
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 3: she's changed up her sound a few times, she is

603
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 3: she doesn't appear to just be trying.

604
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 2: I don't know.

605
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 3: Some people think she's probably just trying to make money

606
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 3: at all costs.

607
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: Others don't.

608
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 3: I don't know, I think I think probably she'd be

609
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 3: more favorable than cool.

610
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: All right, I'm only going to do one more. Maybe

611
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,439
Speaker 1: the highest profile female in the world for the last

612
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: thirty years, who do you reckon? I'm going to say,

613
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: not the Queen.

614
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 2: Not Queen bay Beyonce.

615
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: I was going to say, I was going to say Oprah.

616
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, My guess is Oprah would score pretty low

617
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 3: on coolness and very favorable.

618
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: Very very popular, very loved, but.

619
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 3: Normal, even more even more than Taylor Swift. She I

620
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 3: think represents the mainstream.

621
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: Yes, So this is a.

622
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 3: Phenomenon about branding, Like brands often want to be cool,

623
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 3: and it's helpful for brands that aren't known or are

624
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 3: very small and want.

625
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: To become market leaders.

626
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 3: But once a brand's a market leader, it's better off

627
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 3: to stop trying to be cool and offering value a

628
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 3: different way. And to me, Oprah is that like she

629
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 3: she she might have been cool initially, like there weren't

630
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 3: too many black women with you know, daytime television shows,

631
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 3: for any television show, and so at that time she

632
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: might have been cool. But now she's become the norm.

633
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,399
Speaker 3: She's gone from sort of cool, niche cool to mass

634
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 3: school to just popular, and she no longer seems cool,

635
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 3: but it doesn't matter because people like her and they

636
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: look up to her and they follow her, and she

637
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 3: she is the new norm. Some about being cool is

638
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: about moving the norm forward or changing or being different

639
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 3: than it, and Oprah's not that anymore. But she's kind

640
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 3: of the She's kind of the example of what of

641
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 3: sort of if you're if you're want to be cool

642
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 3: for the market benefits. Oprah is an example of the

643
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 3: type of thing that to aspire to where maybe you're

644
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 3: cool at first, but you become you become valued for

645
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 3: other reasons, and you can remain a market leader because

646
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,439
Speaker 3: of that. It's hard to remain a market leader only

647
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 3: by being cool, because once you become too popular, a

648
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 3: lot of the people will not think you're cool anymore.

649
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: Is there a speaking purely from a product or a

650
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: brand perspective, is there a relationship between coolness and trustworthiness?

651
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: Like do I want my product? Do I want to

652
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: be trusted or do I want to be cool? Or

653
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: do they coexist? All?

654
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 2: Right? So there's going to be both.

655
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 3: Are going to be correlated with just general attitude or

656
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,439
Speaker 3: how positive see people see the brand? Well, there might

657
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 3: be if you just were to measure the two, they

658
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 3: might be positively correlated.

659
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: But many I.

660
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 3: Think some of the actions you could take as a

661
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 3: brand would be more likely to lead to coolness and

662
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: hurt trustworthiness or vice versa.

663
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: For example, doing things that.

664
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 3: Are edgy or controversial might help a brand be cool

665
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: but make it less trustworthy.

666
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if I should bring I don't know

667
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: if I should bring this up. Sorry, prof but it

668
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: didn't make a big splash here, but but I think

669
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: it did in the States. Is it Dylan mulvainy? Is

670
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,760
Speaker 1: it that that? Uh, that influencer who did the bud

671
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: Light commercials? Was it? And I think they had this

672
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: whole kind of I don't know, you'll you'll know they

673
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: did this. They did this whole campaign for bud Light,

674
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: and it kind of blew up. I think I think

675
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: they thought it was going to be cool and hit

676
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: an amazing and well received, and it just wasn't well.

677
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 2: I think they misread the room, they misread their audience.

678
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 3: So correct me if I'm wrong with Dylan Malvine is

679
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 3: a transgender influencer.

680
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: I think so, yeah, yeah, Okay.

681
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 3: So I think what happened was that bud Light hired

682
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 3: this transgender influencer, and this is probably during the Biden

683
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: administration when.

684
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: It was probably two years ago maybe yeah.

685
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: Okay, it was before sort of all this anti woke

686
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 3: backlash that accompanied President Trump into power for the second time,

687
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: back when, back when brands were really trying to be

688
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: inclusive and embraced DEI. So bud Light hires this transgender influencer,

689
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 3: and their audience it's doesn't like it, to say the least,

690
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: and you know, it just doesn't fit their brand, where

691
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 3: like their brand is where Budweiser succeeded with their marketing

692
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 3: is by taking the opposite approach. So I don't know

693
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 3: if you remember that or if these were even in Australia,

694
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 3: but they had these dilly dilly ads where this is

695
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 3: probably in the late teens. So all these people are

696
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: going to the King and Queen and bringing bud Light

697
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 3: as a tribute and they go dilly dilly, dilly dilly.

698
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 3: It's a silly thing, they'll say, but basically everybody's happy

699
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: to have bud Light. And then this hipsterish guy comes

700
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 3: in and brings a honey mead.

701
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: That he's that he's been really interested in lately.

702
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,879
Speaker 3: So this is this is like the cool people who

703
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 3: you know, the cool people, not bud Light's audience. It's

704
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 3: making fun of everybody in like Williamsburg, New York, and

705
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 3: Silver Lake, Los Angeles, and sort of who are you

706
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 3: know drink drink these micro brews and seek out seek

707
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 3: out more interesting varieties. You know, they're not the people

708
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: who like turn their nose up at a bud light.

709
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: And so this person.

710
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 3: Brings the honeyeat mead and the king sentences them to

711
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 3: the pit of misery, and everybody watching it sort of

712
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 3: feels like they're part of the party. They're part of

713
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 3: this normal group who you know drink bud light and

714
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: that's you know, that's normal. It's not about it's not

715
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 3: about being cool. It's just about fitting with the group,

716
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 3: doing what you like, not being snobby about it. And

717
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 3: that's the type of marketing that works far better for

718
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 3: bud Light because that appeals to their audience.

719
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 2: Who you know, are you know?

720
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 3: There might be I don't know, And I think especially

721
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago there this audience was getting

722
00:40:55,080 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 3: a little bit fed up with all of the I

723
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: would call it like DEI overreach, you know, I don't

724
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 3: know I'm not. I'm not part of this subculture of

725
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 3: like I would say the average bud Light drinker, and

726
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 3: I don't want to but from what I understand, like

727
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 3: most people are not like racist or transphobic, at least

728
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: not consciously. But they were very tired of they felt

729
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 3: like being a man and being white were seen as

730
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 3: inherently bad.

731
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: Uh.

732
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 3: And they were tired of brands like Going Bending going

733
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 3: out of their way to appease this crowd that was

734
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 3: constantly no, we need more representation from minorities, from voices

735
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: that aren't heard when you know it wasn't it wasn't

736
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 3: called for now, I like, this is, there's, there's, there's.

737
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 3: This is a difficult issue and it's hard for brands

738
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 3: to have gate this. But I think but Light in

739
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 3: this situation didn't do what its audience wanted.

740
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the other things that you're interested in

741
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: and I'm interested in but not particularly good at, is

742
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: you're interested in humor and what's funny and what makes

743
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: people laugh. And I guess what gets people's attention in

744
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 1: that way? Is there a correlation between coolness and being funny?

745
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 3: So the commonality is that both involve doing something different

746
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 3: than the norm.

747
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

748
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 3: If you're just going to do what's conventional or what's

749
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 3: what other people are doing, or what's expected in a situation,

750
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 3: it's unlikely to be cool or funny. They differ though,

751
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 3: in I think the valance of the divergence from the

752
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 3: norm of how it's different with coolness, people's tend to

753
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 3: see it as a positive difference.

754
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: So you know, you're.

755
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 3: Wearing this, you're wearing this hat, and nobody's wearing a

756
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 3: hat like that, but it looks really good.

757
00:42:59,440 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: That's cool.

758
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 3: Whereas if you wear i don't know, like a giant

759
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 3: duck on your head, that's also unusual. But there people

760
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 3: will think that doesn't look good, that's funny. So I

761
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 3: started studying humor. Let me get you the short version,

762
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 3: and then if you want to get along with it.

763
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: So the short version is we argue that things are

764
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 3: funny when there's a violation. So something that threatens your

765
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 3: perception of how the world should be, but at the

766
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 3: same time you think it's benign, you're okay with it.

767
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 3: So people shouldn't wear a duck for a hat, but

768
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 3: you know that's not really causing any harm, and you know,

769
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 3: so like there's it's a violation and it's benign.

770
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm thinking about in terms of comics that are

771
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: I think, and this is purely my perspective. Like, someone

772
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: likes Chappelle, I think is cool and funny. Someone liked

773
00:43:54,360 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: Bill Burr. Bill Burr not cool at all and funny. Okay, well,

774
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: both world renowned comics, and one seems too. And again,

775
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: probably a lot of people look at Chappelle and think

776
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: he's not dive Schapelle. I think he's kind of cool.

777
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 1: I think he's got this energy about him that's you know, yeah.

778
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:15,879
Speaker 3: I think the comics who are seen as cool are

779
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 3: more likely to be pushing for meaningful change in society.

780
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 3: So Lenny Bruce is a go to here, and he

781
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 3: was really pushing against overly restrictive norms, against profanity and

782
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 3: against other things back in the early sixties, and so

783
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 3: he was able to make jokes about that, but the

784
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: change he was pushing for seemed like real and valuable,

785
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 3: so he seemed cool.

786
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 2: And Chappelle was doing the same thing.

787
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: I think, for especially early on, many of his sketches

788
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 3: were I think really a knockout racism and trying to

789
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 3: push push against racism, and so I think he worked,

790
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 3: So I think he seems cool in part because of that.

791
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about as we wind up,

792
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about your research into humor,

793
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: and like how do you do that research, and and

794
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: like what have you discovered? How do you quantify and measure?

795
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: And I don't know, analyze humor in that sense.

796
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 3: I started around I started a year or two after

797
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 3: I started researching coolness, and it was actually a much

798
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 3: faster moving research dream because it's in some ways it's

799
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 3: easier to measure. You can just ask people is this funny?

800
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 3: Are you amused? You can like videotape them and see

801
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 3: if they're laughing. So these are the signs that someone

802
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 3: thinks something's funny, that they're experiencing humor. And most of

803
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 3: our early work was looking at what is it that

804
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 3: makes something funny?

805
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:51,839
Speaker 2: The more recent work and.

806
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 3: Even early on, we were looking at, well, what are

807
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 3: the consequences of humor?

808
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 2: Because I'm in marketing, I was looking at.

809
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 3: Humor and advertising some stuff with humor in like public

810
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 3: relations and humor in goal pursuit for customers. But my

811
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: favorite part of this work is the theory that we

812
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 3: built the benign violation theory that have already described, and

813
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 3: so what we do is we would we would just

814
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 3: try to come up We try to manipulate things like

815
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 3: is there a violation, yes or no? Does this seem wrong?

816
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 3: And are people likely to see it as okay? When

817
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 3: do people see it as okay? And this whole line

818
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 3: of work started because I was reading moral psychology literature

819
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,319
Speaker 3: and my co author and founder of this theory with me,

820
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 3: Peter McGraw, he was doing research on taboo trade offs,

821
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 3: which is similar when people think like you are using

822
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 3: using and when churches with outsourced prayer to India or

823
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 3: raffle off ahammer suv to recruit new members. So like

824
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:54,760
Speaker 3: some sacred entity is engaging in a profane act marketing activity,

825
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 3: and people say, I think that's wrong. But as he's

826
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 3: presenting this, his audience members were laughing. And I was

827
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 3: reading Jonathan Heights work on moral psychology, and he'd be

828
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 3: describing this guy that has buys a chicken at the marketplace,

829
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 3: then has sex with the chicken, and then cooks the

830
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 3: chicken and eats it, and he asks people is this wrong?

831
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 3: And people say yes, and he asks is this disgusting?

832
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 3: And they say yes, And he asked, or you know,

833
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 3: he asked, why is this wrong? And they don't give

834
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 3: a real answer. They say, oh, it's disgusting. They can't

835
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 3: come up with So he was looking at this moral

836
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 3: happy get the term he used like moral dumbfounding, that

837
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 3: was his term. But I was reading these in a

838
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 3: psychology journal as like a twenty five year old graduate student,

839
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: thinking this is hilarious that they would.

840
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 2: Print something like this.

841
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 3: Yes, so why is it funny even though I think

842
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 3: it's wrong? And so then we started to do things

843
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 3: like push around whether people would be more likely to

844
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 3: see something that seems wrong, like a guy having sex

845
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 3: with a chicken as more or less okay. And one

846
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 3: thing that makes it seem okay is if it's psychologically

847
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 3: dist so if it's not real, if it's somebody else

848
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 3: that you don't care about rather than you, if it

849
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 3: happened a long time ago. So war stories are often

850
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 3: funny years after the fact, but they sucked during the time.

851
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 3: All of these forms of distance, so distance reduces threat,

852
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 3: and so it can make a violation easier to see

853
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 3: as benign. And so we have these We took Jonathan

854
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 3: Hights scenarios like this guy having sex with a chicken,

855
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 3: these other weird sexual acts. We created other moral violations,

856
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 3: like the mother at a wedding swiping all the tips

857
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 3: from the tip jar of the servers. We took stuff

858
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 3: from Peter's work on taboo trade offs, a church raffling

859
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: Offahamer suv and we can make all these things seem

860
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 3: more or less funny by making by making the violation

861
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 3: seem more or less benign. So that's how we started

862
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 3: this research, and we've tested We've tested the idea in

863
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 3: a few different ways. In one project, we compared it

864
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: with incongruity theory, which is not very clearly the but

865
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 3: we basically we try to look at here are the

866
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 3: four different ways people have defined in congruity, and none

867
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 3: of them can explain humor as well as this these

868
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 3: twin judgments of it's wrong and it's okay.

869
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that, it's so interesting and last one,

870
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: so what's got your attention now? What are you going

871
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: to be opening the door on in the next year

872
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: or two?

873
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 3: Well, I mentioned earlier, I have a graduate student who's

874
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 3: doing these I think really interesting projects on the psychology

875
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 3: of AHI, how consumers and managers interact with it.

876
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 2: So that there's some work there.

877
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 3: I have another project I'm excited about it on sports

878
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 3: gambling or gambling on any entertainment. And the fun finding

879
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 3: there is like the people are fans. The people are

880
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 3: most interested in the sport, enjoy watching it less when

881
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 3: they're betting, which.

882
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: That's not surprising, I guess it.

883
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: The non fans. The non fans like it more.

884
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 3: Here's why I think it's import is all these leagues

885
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 3: and everyone sort of justifying this legalization of gambling, even

886
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 3: though it leads to more debt, more addiction. There's a

887
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,320
Speaker 3: new study that shows that there's more violent crime where

888
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:20,600
Speaker 3: supports gambling is legal when there are games. So it's

889
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 3: all justified as like, well, people have a right to

890
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 3: pursue whatever it is that is that makes them happy,

891
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 3: and you know, we shouldn't be a nanny state that

892
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 3: tell them what they can do and what they can't do.

893
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,800
Speaker 2: They're willing to welcome to take their own risks.

894
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 3: But what's interesting here is the fans actually, so it's

895
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 3: the supposed trade off between enjoyment and long term risks,

896
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 3: and so we're showing this for the fans, there's.

897
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 2: Not even that trade off.

898
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 3: It's a lose lose, so I'm hoping it will offer

899
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 3: a little bit of well, and we haven't even submitted

900
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 3: this yet, so I probably shouldn't be saying so much

901
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,399
Speaker 3: about it, but I think that I'm hoping it will

902
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 3: help those who see value in maybe slowing the deregulation

903
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:09,439
Speaker 3: and proliferation of gambling everywhere. It might maybe maybe give

904
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 3: them a rock for the slingshot they have in their

905
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 3: David Births Goliath attempt to slow legalize gambling.

906
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: Gambling, especially on the sports is massive in Australia, huge.

907
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 3: Yes, and in the United States it is too, and

908
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 3: it's all like in the last five years.

909
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: It's huge. Hi, Kylo, But I really appreciate you chatting

910
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: with me. Yeah, it's been so nice to have you

911
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: on the You Project. We'll say goodbye officially now before

912
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,400
Speaker 1: we do, where do you want my audience to find you?

913
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: Or is there any do you want to direct them

914
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: towards a website or a book or anything, or some

915
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: social media or.

916
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: Well.

917
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 3: I have a website through the university, hopefully be working

918
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 3: on a book over the next year, but nothing out yet,

919
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 3: So keep an eye on a book on coolness and

920
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 3: maybe a year or two.

921
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll get you back. I will say goodbye here

922
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: but for now. Thanks so much, Kyler, but appreciate you. Tom.

923
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 3: Thanks thanks for having me on. Good luck wrapping up

924
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 3: your dissertation.

925
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 1: Thanks buddy,