1 00:00:03,610 --> 00:00:06,220 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,220 --> 00:00:09,910 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. We've talked a lot about cybersecurity on Fear and Greed, and 3 00:00:09,910 --> 00:00:13,039 Sean Aylmer: about the alarming number of individuals and businesses that have 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,720 Sean Aylmer: been the victims of cyber attack in Australia. But we 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,599 Sean Aylmer: haven't talked much about what happens to data when it's 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,410 Sean Aylmer: stolen, how it's used, how to get it back, and 7 00:00:22,410 --> 00:00:25,329 Sean Aylmer: how much your details can sell for on the dark 8 00:00:25,329 --> 00:00:29,610 Sean Aylmer: web. Lawrence Patrick is a cybersecurity expert with Australian company 9 00:00:29,620 --> 00:00:32,540 Sean Aylmer: Zilirio and my guest this morning. Lawrence, welcome to Fear 10 00:00:32,540 --> 00:00:32,779 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 11 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:34,589 Lawrence Patrick: Thank you very much. 12 00:00:35,900 --> 00:00:38,890 Sean Aylmer: Let's start off, Lawrence, what is the dark web exactly? 13 00:00:39,620 --> 00:00:42,050 Lawrence Patrick: The dark web is a part of the internet where 14 00:00:42,050 --> 00:00:45,550 Lawrence Patrick: hackers and cyber criminals hang out. If you could visualize 15 00:00:46,229 --> 00:00:51,870 Lawrence Patrick: people doing illicit deals in shady, dark alleys and exchanging 16 00:00:51,870 --> 00:00:55,500 Lawrence Patrick: goods, that's a digital equivalent of the dark web. It 17 00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:59,240 Lawrence Patrick: is a collection of websites that are not accessible by 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,170 Lawrence Patrick: regular people. You actually need special software tools to even 19 00:01:02,420 --> 00:01:05,190 Lawrence Patrick: be able to see these websites. But they do exist. 20 00:01:05,430 --> 00:01:08,670 Lawrence Patrick: And this is where people go to buy and sell 21 00:01:08,870 --> 00:01:12,780 Lawrence Patrick: stolen data, sometimes to buy and sell exploits that allow 22 00:01:12,790 --> 00:01:15,730 Lawrence Patrick: people to crack into software and use it for nefarious 23 00:01:15,730 --> 00:01:18,090 Lawrence Patrick: means. The dark web is kind of where the hackers 24 00:01:18,090 --> 00:01:19,750 Lawrence Patrick: and cyber criminals hang out on the internet. 25 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,100 Sean Aylmer: Okay. We often talk about the cost of business, ranging 26 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:25,509 Sean Aylmer: from the ransoms paid to get data back, through to 27 00:01:25,510 --> 00:01:27,709 Sean Aylmer: the cost of having all your IT frozen for days 28 00:01:27,709 --> 00:01:29,920 Sean Aylmer: on end, et cetera. But you've got data from the 29 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,569 Sean Aylmer: other side of the equation or the other side of 30 00:01:31,660 --> 00:01:34,620 Sean Aylmer: the transaction from the dark web, how much the stolen 31 00:01:34,620 --> 00:01:38,780 Sean Aylmer: data is actually selling for. Can we go through some of those? 32 00:01:38,780 --> 00:01:41,610 Sean Aylmer: I thought it was really, really fascinating. So medical records, 33 00:01:42,390 --> 00:01:47,260 Sean Aylmer: the average asking price in 2022 for medical records is $ 34 00:01:47,270 --> 00:01:51,390 Sean Aylmer: 400 plus, which is actually at the very high end 35 00:01:51,390 --> 00:01:51,960 Sean Aylmer: of the spectrum. 36 00:01:53,510 --> 00:01:56,640 Lawrence Patrick: Yeah, that's absolutely correct. I mean, medical records are very 37 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,290 Lawrence Patrick: prized in terms of stolen data. And part of the 38 00:01:59,290 --> 00:02:03,410 Lawrence Patrick: reason is that they have a perfect combination of super 39 00:02:03,410 --> 00:02:06,190 Lawrence Patrick: reliable personal details. I mean, your medical records are not 40 00:02:06,190 --> 00:02:09,230 Lawrence Patrick: likely to be out of date or inaccurate. It's sort 41 00:02:09,230 --> 00:02:12,280 Lawrence Patrick: of the gold standard in terms of accuracy of the 42 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,520 Lawrence Patrick: records and the personal identifying information. But then also, you 43 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:20,910 Lawrence Patrick: got financial transaction information. And because it's quite sensitive, it's 44 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:25,070 Lawrence Patrick: very easy to launch a ransomware campaign once you have 45 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,020 Lawrence Patrick: these types of medical records. But in terms of on 46 00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:31,169 Lawrence Patrick: the dark web and hackers buying and selling them, if 47 00:02:31,169 --> 00:02:34,910 Lawrence Patrick: you wanted to target an individual, having access to medical 48 00:02:34,910 --> 00:02:38,910 Lawrence Patrick: records is a very powerful way to target people. And 49 00:02:38,910 --> 00:02:40,840 Lawrence Patrick: this is part of the reason why they command such 50 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,040 Lawrence Patrick: a high price on the dark web. 51 00:02:42,780 --> 00:02:48,570 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Does that mean there are more cyber attacks on medical facilities, hospitals, doctors, surgeries, 52 00:02:48,570 --> 00:02:51,050 Sean Aylmer: those sorts of things, because of the value of the data? 53 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:55,690 Lawrence Patrick: Yeah, that's right. We have seen increased activity in Australia. 54 00:02:55,690 --> 00:02:59,510 Lawrence Patrick: The Australian Cybersecurity Center has actually issued an alert last 55 00:02:59,510 --> 00:03:04,820 Lawrence Patrick: year, reminding hospitals and doctors' offices and healthcare facilities of 56 00:03:04,820 --> 00:03:08,280 Lawrence Patrick: all kinds that they are targeted by these hackers, and 57 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,960 Lawrence Patrick: that they have to take measures to find outside partners, 58 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,730 Lawrence Patrick: whether it's Zirilio or other companies, to try to help 59 00:03:15,730 --> 00:03:19,090 Lawrence Patrick: them strengthen their cyber defense because they really are big 60 00:03:19,090 --> 00:03:22,370 Lawrence Patrick: targets. And we've seen a wave of ransomware attacks going 61 00:03:22,370 --> 00:03:25,209 Lawrence Patrick: after that data in Australia. That unfortunately, there were even 62 00:03:25,210 --> 00:03:28,270 Lawrence Patrick: some hospitals that were shut down and unable to complete 63 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,139 Lawrence Patrick: surgeries and unable to move forward with their daily operations, 64 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,990 Lawrence Patrick: which you can imagine is very scary for a hospital 65 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,120 Lawrence Patrick: to actually lose operational focus because of a cyber attack. 66 00:03:39,180 --> 00:03:41,670 Sean Aylmer: I'm not going to go through them all, but crypto accounts are worth about 67 00:03:42,130 --> 00:03:46,020 Sean Aylmer: 120 to 550. It's quite a range. Driver's license says 68 00:03:46,020 --> 00:03:49,640 Sean Aylmer: at $ 200. I thought it was interesting that credit card details 69 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,730 Sean Aylmer: with CVV, that's the security number on the back of 70 00:03:52,730 --> 00:03:56,000 Sean Aylmer: the card, was only $ 40. Why is that? I would've 71 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,380 Sean Aylmer: thought that was a really good one for a criminal to have for. 72 00:03:59,930 --> 00:04:02,430 Lawrence Patrick: Yeah. Well, it's very interesting. And this is part of the 73 00:04:02,430 --> 00:04:04,360 Lawrence Patrick: point that we want to make is that it's very 74 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,900 Lawrence Patrick: counterintuitive. If you ask the average person on the street 75 00:04:07,580 --> 00:04:10,170 Lawrence Patrick: their most valuable asset, they would probably think their wallet 76 00:04:10,170 --> 00:04:12,540 Lawrence Patrick: with their credit card, or their bank card. They would say, " 77 00:04:12,540 --> 00:04:14,620 Lawrence Patrick: Wow, that's where the money is," so obviously that's the 78 00:04:14,620 --> 00:04:18,670 Lawrence Patrick: thing that people would try to steal. But in fact, 79 00:04:19,100 --> 00:04:21,430 Lawrence Patrick: banks and credit card companies have actually done a pretty 80 00:04:21,430 --> 00:04:24,570 Lawrence Patrick: good job of making it easy to change those numbers. 81 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,820 Lawrence Patrick: The second you realize you've been compromised, if your wallet 82 00:04:27,820 --> 00:04:31,800 Lawrence Patrick: physically gets stolen, it's fairly trivial, fairly easy to request 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,929 Lawrence Patrick: a brand new number to change that code, that three- 84 00:04:34,930 --> 00:04:37,420 Lawrence Patrick: digit code on the back, and basically reset those details 85 00:04:37,420 --> 00:04:41,150 Lawrence Patrick: to make it essentially useless for charging up. Now that's 86 00:04:41,150 --> 00:04:43,260 Lawrence Patrick: only if you realize it's gone, which is why they 87 00:04:43,260 --> 00:04:47,610 Lawrence Patrick: still do have some value. But those things are pretty 88 00:04:47,610 --> 00:04:51,330 Lawrence Patrick: easy to reset. Some credit cards now even will automatically 89 00:04:51,330 --> 00:04:53,860 Lawrence Patrick: expire that three- digit code after a certain period of 90 00:04:53,860 --> 00:04:56,659 Lawrence Patrick: time. The credit card companies and banks have, have gotten 91 00:04:56,660 --> 00:04:59,290 Lawrence Patrick: more sophisticated and stepped their game up a little bit 92 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,339 Lawrence Patrick: around trying to help consumers with that type of fraud. 93 00:05:03,490 --> 00:05:05,039 Lawrence Patrick: But it does still exist, which is why they have 94 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:05,570 Lawrence Patrick: some value. 95 00:05:05,970 --> 00:05:08,060 Sean Aylmer: Okay. And then some of the social media accounts, actually 96 00:05:08,060 --> 00:05:11,920 Sean Aylmer: being able to access individual social media account, has a 97 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,010 Sean Aylmer: higher value than that. 98 00:05:13,610 --> 00:05:17,270 Lawrence Patrick: Yeah. I mean, social media can be really powerful from 99 00:05:17,270 --> 00:05:22,250 Lawrence Patrick: the standpoint of creating disruption and chaos. People really value 100 00:05:22,250 --> 00:05:25,529 Lawrence Patrick: their social media presence, in particular if you're able to 101 00:05:25,770 --> 00:05:28,339 Lawrence Patrick: get control of the social media account of a brand 102 00:05:28,650 --> 00:05:32,229 Lawrence Patrick: or company, that could be quite valuable. And they would 103 00:05:32,350 --> 00:05:34,320 Lawrence Patrick: be willing to pay a lot to get access back 104 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,040 Lawrence Patrick: to it. But in general, people live on social media 105 00:05:37,770 --> 00:05:40,420 Lawrence Patrick: and so cyber criminals are smart. They go to where 106 00:05:40,420 --> 00:05:44,010 Lawrence Patrick: people spend their time and energy, and because people are 107 00:05:44,010 --> 00:05:47,089 Lawrence Patrick: just so fascinated and so enthralled by spending time on 108 00:05:47,089 --> 00:05:50,690 Lawrence Patrick: social media, it does get a disproportionate level of attack 109 00:05:50,690 --> 00:05:52,770 Lawrence Patrick: and has a lot of value. One of the things 110 00:05:52,770 --> 00:05:55,210 Lawrence Patrick: that people can do with social media is they can 111 00:05:55,210 --> 00:05:59,919 Lawrence Patrick: create more sophisticated targeting of other individuals. For example, the 112 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,669 Lawrence Patrick: best way to target someone is to make them think 113 00:06:02,670 --> 00:06:05,539 Lawrence Patrick: that they're receiving an authentic message from someone they know. 114 00:06:06,510 --> 00:06:08,300 Lawrence Patrick: Most people will give you a lot of details and 115 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:10,370 Lawrence Patrick: give you a lot of information if you impersonate someone 116 00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:13,110 Lawrence Patrick: that they know and they believe they're talking to someone 117 00:06:13,110 --> 00:06:15,979 Lawrence Patrick: they know or someone who's trusted. So through social media, 118 00:06:15,980 --> 00:06:19,170 Lawrence Patrick: you can very easily send a flurry of messages out 119 00:06:19,610 --> 00:06:22,729 Lawrence Patrick: and get very good responses. There's a gift card scam 120 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,870 Lawrence Patrick: that people do where they ask you to send them 121 00:06:25,870 --> 00:06:28,080 Lawrence Patrick: some money on a gift card. And this is one 122 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:29,990 Lawrence Patrick: where a social media account is very valuable, because if 123 00:06:29,990 --> 00:06:32,730 Lawrence Patrick: you use someone's social media account, say, " Hey, I'm stranded 124 00:06:32,730 --> 00:06:35,060 Lawrence Patrick: in this destination. I was traveling and I lost all 125 00:06:35,060 --> 00:06:36,760 Lawrence Patrick: my credit cards. Can you just send me some money?" 126 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:39,010 Lawrence Patrick: And you send that same message out to everybody on 127 00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:41,460 Lawrence Patrick: someone's Facebook friends list, you can imagine the kind of 128 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,850 Lawrence Patrick: damage that gets done in a very short amount of time. 129 00:06:44,660 --> 00:06:46,200 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Lawrence, we'll be back in a minute. 130 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:55,029 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Lawrence Patrick from cybersecurity company, 131 00:06:55,029 --> 00:06:58,990 Sean Aylmer: Zirilio. Okay, so how's the data are obtained? Is it 132 00:06:58,990 --> 00:07:00,640 Sean Aylmer: mostly from attacks on big companies? 133 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,490 Lawrence Patrick: That's correct. Oe of the reason why hackers are so interested 134 00:07:04,490 --> 00:07:09,060 Lawrence Patrick: in targeting these soft targets, such as hospitals and schools 135 00:07:09,060 --> 00:07:14,170 Lawrence Patrick: and universities, nonprofit organizations, social serving organizations, we're really seeing 136 00:07:14,410 --> 00:07:17,330 Lawrence Patrick: an increase in the targeting of all of these soft 137 00:07:17,330 --> 00:07:19,980 Lawrence Patrick: targets. They're not going and after banks and credit card companies 138 00:07:19,980 --> 00:07:23,460 Lawrence Patrick: so much, they're going after targets that have more personal 139 00:07:23,460 --> 00:07:26,540 Lawrence Patrick: details because that's what they want. They want the personal 140 00:07:26,540 --> 00:07:31,060 Lawrence Patrick: data. What they do is they use malware tools. They 141 00:07:31,060 --> 00:07:35,070 Lawrence Patrick: use a special toolkit of software that is mostly automated, 142 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:40,410 Lawrence Patrick: that allows them to relentlessly attack the network of the 143 00:07:40,410 --> 00:07:44,000 Lawrence Patrick: organization until they can find a weak spot. And then 144 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,870 Lawrence Patrick: once they're in, they hang out and figure out how 145 00:07:47,870 --> 00:07:51,190 Lawrence Patrick: to go lateral and what other surfaces they can attack 146 00:07:51,190 --> 00:07:54,360 Lawrence Patrick: within the organization, to get a sense of the map 147 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,740 Lawrence Patrick: of the terrain. And then once they feel very confident, 148 00:07:57,070 --> 00:07:58,929 Lawrence Patrick: or I should say, once the software has a sense 149 00:07:58,930 --> 00:08:03,100 Lawrence Patrick: of that, the software can then alert the hacker to 150 00:08:03,770 --> 00:08:06,530 Lawrence Patrick: press the button and deliver a payload and go after 151 00:08:06,730 --> 00:08:09,200 Lawrence Patrick: the target. And nine times out of 10, that target 152 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,530 Lawrence Patrick: is elevating to administrative privileges and going after a big 153 00:08:12,530 --> 00:08:17,780 Lawrence Patrick: database, usually a customer database. That's typically what hackers look 154 00:08:17,780 --> 00:08:21,470 Lawrence Patrick: for, because that customer database has all of these personal 155 00:08:21,470 --> 00:08:25,910 Lawrence Patrick: details, a lot of times payment information. But the credentials, 156 00:08:26,220 --> 00:08:29,020 Lawrence Patrick: because a lot of people reuse their username and password, 157 00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:32,410 Lawrence Patrick: so it's a double- win if the hackers are successful. 158 00:08:32,410 --> 00:08:34,900 Lawrence Patrick: Because in addition to getting that database, which they can 159 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:38,219 Lawrence Patrick: then chop up and sell on the dark web for 160 00:08:38,220 --> 00:08:42,070 Lawrence Patrick: money, they also get a bunch of logins and passwords, 161 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,010 Lawrence Patrick: which could be useful to attack other websites and other 162 00:08:46,010 --> 00:08:49,349 Lawrence Patrick: companies. So if you reuse your username and password and 163 00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:52,559 Lawrence Patrick: they stole your username and password from, say, a hospital, 164 00:08:52,770 --> 00:08:54,960 Lawrence Patrick: they can then go around to other websites and try 165 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,820 Lawrence Patrick: that same combination to see if you've reused it. And 166 00:08:57,820 --> 00:09:00,610 Lawrence Patrick: if you have reused it, they may gain access to 167 00:09:00,610 --> 00:09:02,580 Lawrence Patrick: five or six other accounts that you have. 168 00:09:03,250 --> 00:09:05,300 Sean Aylmer: Who's doing the buying of this product? 169 00:09:06,380 --> 00:09:11,040 Lawrence Patrick: Yeah. I mean, there's a big industry around cyber crime 170 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,820 Lawrence Patrick: and cyber criminals buying these stolen credentials and then repackaging 171 00:09:15,820 --> 00:09:18,660 Lawrence Patrick: them. Essentially the way that would look is, if I 172 00:09:18,670 --> 00:09:20,550 Lawrence Patrick: was a bad guy, I go on the dark web, 173 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:25,949 Lawrence Patrick: I see someone's offering 5, 000 Medicare accounts with usernames 174 00:09:25,950 --> 00:09:29,979 Lawrence Patrick: and passwords and personal details. And I buy that. Well, 175 00:09:29,980 --> 00:09:32,839 Lawrence Patrick: now I can take that. And then I can have 176 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,429 Lawrence Patrick: a software program that automatically runs against those usernames and 177 00:09:37,429 --> 00:09:40,300 Lawrence Patrick: passwords that people are using for their myGov for Medicare, 178 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,770 Lawrence Patrick: and test other websites to see if any of those 179 00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:49,500 Lawrence Patrick: match. And from that I may get 500 accounts for 180 00:09:50,190 --> 00:09:54,340 Lawrence Patrick: a bank or a thousand accounts for email accounts that 181 00:09:54,340 --> 00:09:56,480 Lawrence Patrick: I can now use, I can now log into people's 182 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,420 Lawrence Patrick: email. And from being able to log into people's email, 183 00:09:59,530 --> 00:10:03,579 Lawrence Patrick: I now have access to essentially all of their accounts 184 00:10:03,580 --> 00:10:05,960 Lawrence Patrick: and all of their traffic. But the other big buyer 185 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,960 Lawrence Patrick: is, we have a nation state problem, which means that 186 00:10:10,700 --> 00:10:12,280 Lawrence Patrick: we have a lot of countries in the world whose 187 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,440 Lawrence Patrick: military hackers. These are actually soldiers whose job is to 188 00:10:16,670 --> 00:10:20,020 Lawrence Patrick: essentially sit at a keyboard and either design hacking tools 189 00:10:20,020 --> 00:10:23,929 Lawrence Patrick: or use those hacking tools to get valuable data. And 190 00:10:23,929 --> 00:10:28,189 Lawrence Patrick: so you have several nation states, North Korea, Iran, China, 191 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,300 Lawrence Patrick: Russia are some of the big ones, and this is 192 00:10:31,309 --> 00:10:34,179 Lawrence Patrick: what they do 24 by seven. And so in a 193 00:10:34,179 --> 00:10:36,530 Lawrence Patrick: lot of cases, they're the ones who are actually doing 194 00:10:36,530 --> 00:10:40,610 Lawrence Patrick: the hacking and they're also buying data. They're doing hacking, 195 00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:43,460 Lawrence Patrick: and at the same time they're also buying. So they're 196 00:10:43,870 --> 00:10:46,679 Lawrence Patrick: selling and buying at the same time. Because what they're 197 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,219 Lawrence Patrick: trying to do is they're trying to amass a more 198 00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:55,450 Lawrence Patrick: valuable and more accurate database on different countries. And that 199 00:10:55,450 --> 00:10:58,000 Lawrence Patrick: becomes very useful to them in the time of a 200 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,970 Lawrence Patrick: conflict if they try to engage in cyber warfare. And 201 00:11:00,970 --> 00:11:03,960 Lawrence Patrick: so this is a pattern that we've seen. It's been 202 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,880 Lawrence Patrick: very well documented by the United Nations. They put out 203 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,680 Lawrence Patrick: a report last year, pointing out that North Korea had 204 00:11:09,809 --> 00:11:14,110 Lawrence Patrick: stolen more than 400 million in cryptocurrency by breaking into 205 00:11:14,370 --> 00:11:18,559 Lawrence Patrick: people's individual crypto wallets. And also this building this database 206 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:23,010 Lawrence Patrick: and buying these stolen data records to build a massive 207 00:11:23,010 --> 00:11:27,100 Lawrence Patrick: database of individuals around the world. We know this is 208 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:29,300 Lawrence Patrick: a big problem, and this is part of the reason 209 00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:32,210 Lawrence Patrick: why the cybersecurity industry's really trying to come together to 210 00:11:32,210 --> 00:11:33,140 Lawrence Patrick: do something about it. 211 00:11:33,790 --> 00:11:35,790 Sean Aylmer: It's almost modern- day spies. 212 00:11:35,970 --> 00:11:39,210 Lawrence Patrick: It is. It's really interesting. In the spy movies, I 213 00:11:39,210 --> 00:11:43,949 Lawrence Patrick: think they always underestimated the power of technology. One of the interesting 214 00:11:44,260 --> 00:11:47,500 Lawrence Patrick: things about technology is that Moore's law, which essentially says 215 00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:52,190 Lawrence Patrick: that compute power doubles every two years, Moore's law is 216 00:11:52,190 --> 00:11:54,839 Lawrence Patrick: powerful and it applies equally to everything, including the bad 217 00:11:55,010 --> 00:11:57,640 Lawrence Patrick: guys. In the James Bond movies and Mission Impossible and 218 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,179 Lawrence Patrick: stuff, Ethan Hunt's got to break into this secure facility 219 00:12:02,179 --> 00:12:04,830 Lawrence Patrick: in Langley and he can't touch the floor, and it's 220 00:12:04,970 --> 00:12:08,220 Lawrence Patrick: very dramatic and very visual. The reality is that the 221 00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:12,589 Lawrence Patrick: real attacks come from software and people using server farms. 222 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,380 Lawrence Patrick: So it's very interesting how different the reality is from 223 00:12:16,380 --> 00:12:16,880 Lawrence Patrick: the movies. 224 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,189 Sean Aylmer: So Ethan's not real, is that what you're trying to tell me? 225 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,170 Lawrence Patrick: Ah, he's real. He's just a nerdy hacker, probably wearing 226 00:12:22,170 --> 00:12:24,760 Lawrence Patrick: a hoodie, drinking Red Bull. 227 00:12:25,510 --> 00:12:27,979 Sean Aylmer: Fair enough, fair enough. Look, one of the services offered 228 00:12:27,980 --> 00:12:32,309 Sean Aylmer: by Zirilio is penetration testing, and we've heard lots about 229 00:12:32,309 --> 00:12:35,760 Sean Aylmer: penetration test. I don't think a lot of us quite understand 230 00:12:36,190 --> 00:12:38,970 Sean Aylmer: what it is. It's kind of ethical hacking, it's like hacking 231 00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:40,130 Sean Aylmer: for good guys or something. 232 00:12:40,940 --> 00:12:42,850 Lawrence Patrick: Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's one of the things 233 00:12:42,850 --> 00:12:45,790 Lawrence Patrick: that we do to help organizations and businesses in Australia, 234 00:12:46,309 --> 00:12:49,160 Lawrence Patrick: with penetration testing. It's something that a lot more organizations 235 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,500 Lawrence Patrick: are realizing they need to do. And it's exactly what 236 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:55,130 Lawrence Patrick: you said. We are the good guys, but we pretend to 237 00:12:55,130 --> 00:12:57,640 Lawrence Patrick: be the bad guys. And we take a look holistically 238 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,350 Lawrence Patrick: at your system to see where the weaknesses are. And 239 00:13:00,350 --> 00:13:02,890 Lawrence Patrick: then we give you a really detailed report at all 240 00:13:02,890 --> 00:13:04,809 Lawrence Patrick: of the things you need to correct and fix and 241 00:13:04,809 --> 00:13:09,329 Lawrence Patrick: strengthen to increase your cybersecurity maturity level and your security 242 00:13:09,330 --> 00:13:12,480 Lawrence Patrick: posture. It's really important, because how will you know where 243 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,470 Lawrence Patrick: your weaknesses are unless you test it. You can't just go, " 244 00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:17,559 Lawrence Patrick: Oh, I installed some software to protect me. Now I'm 245 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,540 Lawrence Patrick: great, I don't have to worry." It doesn't quite work 246 00:13:19,540 --> 00:13:22,610 Lawrence Patrick: that way. You really do need to actively check it. 247 00:13:22,950 --> 00:13:26,559 Lawrence Patrick: And so we have an amazing team of cybersecurity engineers. 248 00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:28,910 Lawrence Patrick: That's one of the things that makes our company stand 249 00:13:28,910 --> 00:13:31,689 Lawrence Patrick: out, I think, is we just have an amazing level 250 00:13:31,690 --> 00:13:35,490 Lawrence Patrick: of expertise and technical prowess. And so we're always able 251 00:13:35,490 --> 00:13:38,340 Lawrence Patrick: to help our customers, and it's very collaborative, working with 252 00:13:38,340 --> 00:13:40,950 Lawrence Patrick: them to help find these problems and then come up 253 00:13:40,950 --> 00:13:42,630 Lawrence Patrick: with a plan for how we can correct it. 254 00:13:43,380 --> 00:13:44,840 Sean Aylmer: Lawrence, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 255 00:13:45,740 --> 00:13:47,309 Lawrence Patrick: Thank you so much for having me on. I really 256 00:13:47,309 --> 00:13:47,760 Lawrence Patrick: enjoyed it. 257 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:51,260 Sean Aylmer: That was Lawrence Patrick from cybersecurity company, Zirilio. This is 258 00:13:52,630 --> 00:13:54,900 Sean Aylmer: the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every morning 259 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:57,570 Sean Aylmer: for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's most 260 00:13:57,570 --> 00:14:01,070 Sean Aylmer: popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer, enjoy your day.