1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,290 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer, and this is Fear and Greed Sunday Feature 2 00:00:04,290 --> 00:00:07,070 Sean Aylmer: Interview. I'll be back again tomorrow with another weekday ex 3 00:00:07,070 --> 00:00:09,670 Sean Aylmer: episode of Fear and Greed, the normal mix of business 4 00:00:09,670 --> 00:00:12,219 Sean Aylmer: news and interviews that sets you up for a successful 5 00:00:12,220 --> 00:00:21,600 Sean Aylmer: day. In the meantime, enjoy our Sunday Feature Interview. How 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,329 Sean Aylmer: I Built This is one of the most successful podcast 7 00:00:24,329 --> 00:00:28,320 Sean Aylmer: series in the world. It's hosted by Guy Raz, editorial 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,470 Sean Aylmer: director at National Public Radio in the United States. Guy 9 00:00:31,470 --> 00:00:34,540 Sean Aylmer: has been a journalist, a war reporter, a radio presenter, 10 00:00:34,870 --> 00:00:37,909 Sean Aylmer: and has formed a production company that is now responsible 11 00:00:37,909 --> 00:00:41,550 Sean Aylmer: for five different podcast series, including How I Built This, 12 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:46,040 Sean Aylmer: generating over 20 million listens a month. He's just released 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,990 Sean Aylmer: a book, How I Built This, the Unexpected Paths to 14 00:00:48,990 --> 00:00:52,530 Sean Aylmer: Success From the World's Most Inspiring Entrepreneurs. And this morning, 15 00:00:52,530 --> 00:00:54,860 Sean Aylmer: we're delighted to have Guy joining us. Guy, welcome to 16 00:00:54,860 --> 00:00:55,470 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed. 17 00:00:56,010 --> 00:00:57,190 Guy Raz: Thank you for having me, Sean. 18 00:00:57,310 --> 00:01:00,240 Sean Aylmer: Let's start with yourself. Tell us, those of us here in 19 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,160 Sean Aylmer: Australia, a little bit about How I Built This, the series, 20 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,470 Sean Aylmer: where it comes from, and what you're trying to do. 21 00:01:06,110 --> 00:01:08,580 Guy Raz: The show can be described as a business show, but 22 00:01:08,580 --> 00:01:10,550 Guy Raz: I don't think of it as a business show. When I 23 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,610 Guy Raz: think of business shows, I think of Wall Street tickers 24 00:01:13,610 --> 00:01:16,669 Guy Raz: going by on the TV screen and people talking about 25 00:01:16,670 --> 00:01:20,640 Guy Raz: quarterly sales and this number and that number, and that's 26 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,750 Guy Raz: never appealed to me. Businesses to me is a series 27 00:01:23,750 --> 00:01:29,270 Guy Raz: of stories and basically every business is a story. So 28 00:01:29,270 --> 00:01:32,550 Guy Raz: what How I Built This actually is, is a storytelling 29 00:01:32,550 --> 00:01:35,009 Guy Raz: show. I describe it, and it's going to sound a 30 00:01:35,010 --> 00:01:38,090 Guy Raz: little weird, but if anyone listening has read Joseph Campbell, 31 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,690 Guy Raz: I describe it as a hero's journey. Joseph Campbell's hugely 32 00:01:41,690 --> 00:01:45,540 Guy Raz: influential on George Lucas and even JK Rowling with Harry 33 00:01:45,540 --> 00:01:48,780 Guy Raz: Potter and Star Wars. He codified this idea that all 34 00:01:48,790 --> 00:01:54,820 Guy Raz: great epics share these narrative moments. There's a hero with 35 00:01:54,820 --> 00:01:56,990 Guy Raz: a crazy idea. The hero has to leave the village. 36 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,850 Guy Raz: The hero meets a mentor. The mentor dies, the hero 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,380 Guy Raz: battles a dragon and almost gets killed and falls into 38 00:02:02,380 --> 00:02:08,150 Guy Raz: an abyss, and then reemerges. I recognize that there many 39 00:02:08,150 --> 00:02:11,429 Guy Raz: elements of that hero's journey in the story of founding 40 00:02:11,450 --> 00:02:15,730 Guy Raz: a business or a company, because founding a business can 41 00:02:15,730 --> 00:02:20,250 Guy Raz: be one of the loneliest, most challenging, most anxiety- driven 42 00:02:20,710 --> 00:02:25,210 Guy Raz: experiences in the human experience. It's full of drama, it's 43 00:02:25,210 --> 00:02:29,359 Guy Raz: full of catastrophe, it's full of collapse, it's full of 44 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,880 Guy Raz: depression, it's full of lying on the bathroom floor crying 45 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,669 Guy Raz: in the fetal position. And that's what How I Built 46 00:02:36,669 --> 00:02:39,959 Guy Raz: This is, it just happens that we tell these human 47 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,030 Guy Raz: journeys, these hero's journeys and narratives through the prism of 48 00:02:44,030 --> 00:02:50,070 Guy Raz: business. What comes out of it is this incredible reservoir 49 00:02:50,710 --> 00:02:56,160 Guy Raz: of wisdom and knowledge and ideas and inspiration. 50 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,630 Sean Aylmer: Businesses are full of great stories and let's start at the very 51 00:03:00,630 --> 00:03:03,810 Sean Aylmer: topmost. You think of a business and when you want to personify 52 00:03:03,810 --> 00:03:07,149 Sean Aylmer: it, you think about the CEO. They're just humans, they're frail, 53 00:03:07,620 --> 00:03:10,620 Sean Aylmer: they have doubts. And maybe the difference between a CEO 54 00:03:10,620 --> 00:03:13,470 Sean Aylmer: and others is that when the opportunity came, they actually 55 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:16,050 Sean Aylmer: leapt. Why did they take that leap? 56 00:03:16,650 --> 00:03:21,540 Guy Raz: I focus on founders, people who started a business, had 57 00:03:21,540 --> 00:03:26,269 Guy Raz: an idea and built it. What I found is that there are 58 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,750 Guy Raz: a variety of reasons why people take the leap. Some 59 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,900 Guy Raz: people are just hardwired that way. There's some people who 60 00:03:32,900 --> 00:03:36,070 Guy Raz: are just born to be entrepreneurs and we all know those 61 00:03:36,070 --> 00:03:37,910 Guy Raz: kinds of people. And by the way, we're jealous of 62 00:03:37,910 --> 00:03:39,590 Guy Raz: those kinds of people because we're like, " How did you 63 00:03:39,590 --> 00:03:41,930 Guy Raz: get that confidence? How did you come out of the 64 00:03:41,930 --> 00:03:46,130 Guy Raz: womb ready to sell stuff?" You know the type, right? 65 00:03:46,330 --> 00:03:46,530 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 66 00:03:46,530 --> 00:03:50,300 Guy Raz: But the reality is that very, very few entrepreneurs that I've interviewed, 67 00:03:50,300 --> 00:03:53,600 Guy Raz: and I've interviewed over 300 of them, and some of 68 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:59,010 Guy Raz: the biggest in the world, including several Australian entrepreneurs, the 69 00:03:59,010 --> 00:04:03,190 Guy Raz: reality is that most of them learn how to become 70 00:04:03,190 --> 00:04:07,920 Guy Raz: entrepreneurs. Most of them struggle with the things that all 71 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,440 Guy Raz: of us struggle with: with fear, the fear of rejection, 72 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,730 Guy Raz: the fear of people doubting their ideas, the fear of 73 00:04:14,730 --> 00:04:20,640 Guy Raz: failure, the fear of it all going pear shaped. What 74 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:26,890 Guy Raz: I've discovered is that pretty much to a person, with 75 00:04:26,890 --> 00:04:32,130 Guy Raz: very small exceptions, they all learn how to acquire the 76 00:04:32,130 --> 00:04:36,740 Guy Raz: skills and attributes that one needs in order to build 77 00:04:36,740 --> 00:04:39,830 Guy Raz: the kind of resilience it takes to withstand the pressures 78 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,750 Guy Raz: of, and the ups and downs of building a business. 79 00:04:43,130 --> 00:04:47,029 Guy Raz: Really, I've become convinced over the past five years of 80 00:04:47,029 --> 00:04:50,580 Guy Raz: doing this, that entrepreneurship is really a state of mind. 81 00:04:51,180 --> 00:04:56,130 Guy Raz: And we, I think, tend to fetishize entrepreneurs. We think 82 00:04:56,130 --> 00:04:58,789 Guy Raz: of these people as these... In Australia, you look at Atlassian 83 00:04:59,390 --> 00:05:02,170 Guy Raz: and or Canva any of these huge companies. And the 84 00:05:02,170 --> 00:05:07,700 Guy Raz: reality is that they really are just like us. It's 85 00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:12,150 Guy Raz: just that they have learned skills that have enabled them to take 86 00:05:12,150 --> 00:05:15,419 Guy Raz: the leap and to start this thing. So what I've 87 00:05:15,420 --> 00:05:19,330 Guy Raz: come to realize is that most of us, we actually 88 00:05:19,330 --> 00:05:23,100 Guy Raz: all behave entrepreneurialy over the course of our lives, whether 89 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:26,970 Guy Raz: we are working for a company or developing our own 90 00:05:26,970 --> 00:05:31,680 Guy Raz: ideas. It just takes some kind of rewiring in our 91 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,320 Guy Raz: brain to recognize what we're doing. And so in part 92 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,960 Guy Raz: the idea behind the book is to basically throw this 93 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:42,710 Guy Raz: idea in people's faces to say, " You are actually entrepreneurial." 94 00:05:43,020 --> 00:05:47,029 Guy Raz: And here are examples, people who did things that you 95 00:05:47,029 --> 00:05:51,070 Guy Raz: are probably doing every day. And here's some ideas about 96 00:05:51,070 --> 00:05:52,810 Guy Raz: how you can actually go to the next level. 97 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:54,710 Sean Aylmer: Do you think some of them they've learned from their 98 00:05:54,710 --> 00:05:57,110 Sean Aylmer: mistakes better than I would, for example, though? I totally 99 00:05:57,180 --> 00:05:59,870 Sean Aylmer: accept what you're saying, but they seem to be able 100 00:05:59,870 --> 00:06:01,420 Sean Aylmer: to evolve themselves to that state. 101 00:06:02,510 --> 00:06:05,590 Guy Raz: I would be willing to bet all of my money 102 00:06:05,779 --> 00:06:08,880 Guy Raz: that you learned a lot from your mistakes. And here's 103 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,900 Guy Raz: what I say about that. Mistakes are hard and failures 104 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:18,359 Guy Raz: are really hard. Nobody likes it, right? I think the 105 00:06:18,380 --> 00:06:22,430 Guy Raz: difference is that once we can begin to reflect on 106 00:06:22,430 --> 00:06:26,460 Guy Raz: those failures and see a pattern in those failures, it 107 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:31,200 Guy Raz: becomes clear that they were necessary. They were actually crucial 108 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,300 Guy Raz: to the process of success. I mean, this is nothing 109 00:06:33,300 --> 00:06:35,789 Guy Raz: new. I'm not a seer. I'm not inventing an idea. 110 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,880 Guy Raz: You can go back to Winston Churchill, and long before 111 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,860 Guy Raz: him, and find people who say success is essentially a 112 00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:45,630 Guy Raz: series of failures that the end result is a success. 113 00:06:46,450 --> 00:06:50,680 Guy Raz: What I've found is that founders who I've interviewed, whether 114 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,730 Guy Raz: it's Howard Schultz of Starbucks or Richard Branson, or any 115 00:06:54,730 --> 00:06:57,630 Guy Raz: of the people that I've had on the show, they 116 00:06:57,630 --> 00:07:02,839 Guy Raz: essentially have experienced failure time and again in small ways, 117 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:08,010 Guy Raz: sometimes medium ways, sometimes big ways that kind of create 118 00:07:08,060 --> 00:07:12,500 Guy Raz: a... It kind of inoculates them over time. And I 119 00:07:12,740 --> 00:07:15,400 Guy Raz: found that too, with what I do, that those small 120 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,770 Guy Raz: failures actually create better resistance to withstand bigger failures. Doesn't 121 00:07:20,770 --> 00:07:24,220 Guy Raz: mean it's easy or fun, but it's so important and 122 00:07:24,220 --> 00:07:27,040 Guy Raz: crucial because actually that's how we learn. That's how we 123 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,730 Guy Raz: grow. And that's why I focus so much on failure 124 00:07:30,220 --> 00:07:30,970 Guy Raz: in the book. 125 00:07:31,540 --> 00:07:34,160 Sean Aylmer: Kind of brings us on the idea of safety zones and 126 00:07:34,510 --> 00:07:37,370 Sean Aylmer: LinkedIn founder Reed Hoffman talking about jumping off a cliff 127 00:07:37,530 --> 00:07:40,120 Sean Aylmer: and assembling the plane on the way down. You don't quite 128 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,100 Sean Aylmer: have that approach. You talk about leaving your safety zone, but 129 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:44,050 Sean Aylmer: doing it safely. 130 00:07:44,250 --> 00:07:44,480 Guy Raz: Yeah. 131 00:07:44,550 --> 00:07:46,050 Sean Aylmer: Describe that. What do you mean by that? 132 00:07:46,870 --> 00:07:49,179 Guy Raz: I love this idea because I think we have this 133 00:07:49,180 --> 00:07:55,450 Guy Raz: image of entrepreneurs as these brash swashbuckling, like Richard Branson 134 00:07:55,450 --> 00:07:59,170 Guy Raz: jumping off an airplane without a parachute. But the reality 135 00:07:59,170 --> 00:08:02,489 Guy Raz: is that almost none of the entrepreneurs I've ever interviewed are 136 00:08:02,490 --> 00:08:06,590 Guy Raz: like that. Pretty much to a person, they mitigate risks. 137 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:11,310 Guy Raz: One of the examples is Jim Cook. Jim Cook founded 138 00:08:11,310 --> 00:08:15,480 Guy Raz: Samuel Adams Boston Beer Company, Sam Adams Beer. Sam Adams 139 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,570 Guy Raz: Beer really launched the craft beer revolution in the United 140 00:08:18,570 --> 00:08:22,500 Guy Raz: States. Now, any Australian over the age of 45 will 141 00:08:22,500 --> 00:08:26,420 Guy Raz: probably remember a time when American beer was really crap. 142 00:08:26,810 --> 00:08:29,010 Guy Raz: You would never buy American beer, right? 143 00:08:29,010 --> 00:08:30,900 Sean Aylmer: I'm sorry, Budweiser: undrinkable. 144 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,070 Guy Raz: Right, terrible. But I bet today there are people listening 145 00:08:34,370 --> 00:08:37,790 Guy Raz: to this right now who love American craft brews, who 146 00:08:37,790 --> 00:08:41,240 Guy Raz: really will go to their local off- license and- 147 00:08:41,470 --> 00:08:42,011 Sean Aylmer: Seek it out. 148 00:08:42,011 --> 00:08:45,700 Guy Raz: ... seek out. That was really launched, that revolution was launched by 149 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,020 Guy Raz: Jim Cook and Ken Grossman, who founded Sierra Nevada. And 150 00:08:50,020 --> 00:08:52,170 Guy Raz: Jim Cook, at the time when he founded Boston Beer 151 00:08:52,170 --> 00:08:55,620 Guy Raz: Company and Sam Adams Beer, he was working for Boston 152 00:08:55,620 --> 00:08:59,130 Guy Raz: Consulting Group. He had a very secure job. He had 153 00:08:59,780 --> 00:09:03,640 Guy Raz: a family, he had good benefits and all that stuff. And in 154 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,410 Guy Raz: the United States, we don't have health insurance. We have 155 00:09:06,410 --> 00:09:09,839 Guy Raz: to get it from our employer. So leaving a job 156 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,990 Guy Raz: is actually a huge risk in the US. There's a 157 00:09:11,990 --> 00:09:15,939 Guy Raz: myth about American entrepreneurship, but the reality is that because 158 00:09:15,940 --> 00:09:19,000 Guy Raz: of the way our system is structured, it's anti- entrepreneurial 159 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,170 Guy Raz: in so many ways, because people are afraid to leave 160 00:09:21,170 --> 00:09:24,650 Guy Raz: their jobs because we don't have universal healthcare. Anyway, Jim 161 00:09:24,650 --> 00:09:28,800 Guy Raz: Cook, he really wants to do something different. He's just 162 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,309 Guy Raz: not happy as a consultant, even though he's making lots 163 00:09:31,309 --> 00:09:34,300 Guy Raz: of money and he's on the fast track to partnership, 164 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,140 Guy Raz: he can see into the future that eventually he's going 165 00:09:37,140 --> 00:09:39,350 Guy Raz: to have these golden handcuffs and he won't be able 166 00:09:39,350 --> 00:09:43,699 Guy Raz: to leave his job. Private school tuition and a lifestyle, 167 00:09:44,630 --> 00:09:47,360 Guy Raz: and he's in his mid- thirties at this point, or 168 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,250 Guy Raz: even late thirties. And he realizes he has to make 169 00:09:50,250 --> 00:09:54,070 Guy Raz: a change. He has to create something on his own. 170 00:09:54,270 --> 00:09:57,619 Guy Raz: He has this burning passion, but he's not ready to just 171 00:09:57,620 --> 00:10:00,720 Guy Raz: jump out of an airplane and quit his job and 172 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:03,110 Guy Raz: go start a beer company, which by the way, he 173 00:10:03,110 --> 00:10:05,199 Guy Raz: knew very little about. I mean, his father was a 174 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,809 Guy Raz: brew master and his grandfather and great- grandfather, but Jim 175 00:10:08,809 --> 00:10:11,650 Guy Raz: Cook's dad, when Jim Cook went to his dad and 176 00:10:11,650 --> 00:10:14,059 Guy Raz: said, "I think I want to make beer," his dad was like, " Are you nuts? 177 00:10:14,059 --> 00:10:16,620 Guy Raz: I sent you to Harvard Law School, man. You don't 178 00:10:16,620 --> 00:10:20,630 Guy Raz: have to make beer." But he decides that he wants 179 00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:24,200 Guy Raz: to revolutionize American beer. He wants to make German style 180 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,469 Guy Raz: lagers in the United States. So instead of quitting his 181 00:10:27,470 --> 00:10:31,730 Guy Raz: job, he starts slowly. Instead of leaping out of the airplane 182 00:10:31,730 --> 00:10:36,530 Guy Raz: without a parachute, he starts by dipping one toe into 183 00:10:36,530 --> 00:10:39,740 Guy Raz: the pond. At night, on weekends, he starts to research 184 00:10:39,740 --> 00:10:42,690 Guy Raz: the industry. He starts to talk to people. He starts 185 00:10:42,690 --> 00:10:46,020 Guy Raz: to visit bottling plants. He starts to experiment with recipes 186 00:10:46,020 --> 00:10:49,050 Guy Raz: in his house. It takes him six or seven months, 187 00:10:49,340 --> 00:10:51,800 Guy Raz: but once he has a plan in place, he is 188 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,340 Guy Raz: ready to leave. And when he leaves, he still knew 189 00:10:56,820 --> 00:11:01,270 Guy Raz: that if it all went haywire and collapsed, he still 190 00:11:01,270 --> 00:11:03,010 Guy Raz: had a safety net. He could go back to being 191 00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:05,959 Guy Raz: a consultant. He knew that he could do that. And 192 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,510 Guy Raz: so he really mitigated his risk and most entrepreneurs do 193 00:11:09,510 --> 00:11:13,360 Guy Raz: that. Most of them start that way. It sort of 194 00:11:13,570 --> 00:11:17,150 Guy Raz: runs counter to our instincts as a species, to just 195 00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:20,439 Guy Raz: run at the saber- toothed tiger. If we did that, 196 00:11:20,590 --> 00:11:25,400 Guy Raz: we'd all die. So the idea of taking risk doesn't 197 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,220 Guy Raz: mean doing something reckless, it means taking a risk with 198 00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:31,469 Guy Raz: an idea, taking a risk that you might fail, taking 199 00:11:31,470 --> 00:11:33,760 Guy Raz: a risk that people might ridicule you, but you can 200 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,870 Guy Raz: still do it safely. 201 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:40,150 Sean Aylmer: You know, another insight in the book, and I had 202 00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:42,700 Sean Aylmer: never thought about it until your book, is the idea 203 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:46,429 Sean Aylmer: that most successful businesses aren't the result of a single 204 00:11:46,429 --> 00:11:49,490 Sean Aylmer: person, but a core of two or three. And when 205 00:11:49,490 --> 00:11:51,970 Sean Aylmer: I thought about it, that often there's a founder who's 206 00:11:51,970 --> 00:11:55,780 Sean Aylmer: higher profile, but there's almost always someone else. I thought 207 00:11:55,780 --> 00:11:58,729 Sean Aylmer: that was fascinating. I mean, that seems to shine through 208 00:11:58,860 --> 00:12:00,010 Sean Aylmer: in what you're writing about. 209 00:12:00,650 --> 00:12:04,530 Guy Raz: Yeah. And it really does kind of speak to the 210 00:12:05,050 --> 00:12:07,809 Guy Raz: hypocrisy of the title of my show, How I Built This. 211 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:09,309 Sean Aylmer: Singular. 212 00:12:09,730 --> 00:12:13,719 Guy Raz: Or my book. And I think about that a lot. I mean, 213 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,839 Guy Raz: I love the title of the book and the show 214 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,140 Guy Raz: of course, but it really is about how groups of 215 00:12:19,140 --> 00:12:23,180 Guy Raz: people build something. Oftentimes I will interview co- founders, but 216 00:12:23,450 --> 00:12:26,370 Guy Raz: sometimes I just interview one founder and it's a single 217 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,820 Guy Raz: narrative. And in the book, I really try and tell 218 00:12:30,890 --> 00:12:35,640 Guy Raz: the stories from multiple perspectives and dimensions because some of 219 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:41,670 Guy Raz: the most sustainable and important and resilient companies have multiple 220 00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:45,920 Guy Raz: people behind them. I can't think of a single example 221 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,350 Guy Raz: of one person having a light bulb moment and saying " 222 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,270 Guy Raz: Eureka! I know exactly what to do." And then going 223 00:12:51,270 --> 00:12:53,470 Guy Raz: and starting this thing on their own. I mean, for every 224 00:12:54,380 --> 00:12:58,070 Guy Raz: Steve Jobs, there's a Steve Wozniak, and there's a Johnny 225 00:12:58,070 --> 00:13:01,850 Guy Raz: Ive who comes up with... We venerate Steve Jobs, but 226 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:07,890 Guy Raz: he didn't actually invent anything. His genius was as a 227 00:13:07,890 --> 00:13:11,420 Guy Raz: marketer. And also as kind of a perfectionist, he could 228 00:13:11,420 --> 00:13:13,000 Guy Raz: look at a product and he could say, " No, that's 229 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,540 Guy Raz: not right. You've got to do it like this," but 230 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:18,620 Guy Raz: he wasn't sitting at a computer programming things. He wasn't 231 00:13:19,230 --> 00:13:22,550 Guy Raz: soldering wires together. That's not what his genius was. He 232 00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:25,670 Guy Raz: had other people who were doing that. His role in 233 00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:28,390 Guy Raz: all of that was kind of as the choir master. 234 00:13:29,050 --> 00:13:32,770 Guy Raz: But that really is the role of, oftentimes, the founder 235 00:13:32,770 --> 00:13:35,840 Guy Raz: and the CEO of the companies, but really it's about 236 00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:39,070 Guy Raz: groups of people. I quote Paul Graham in the book. 237 00:13:39,070 --> 00:13:41,610 Guy Raz: Paul Graham is a famous investor in the United States. 238 00:13:42,130 --> 00:13:43,989 Guy Raz: And one of the things that he looks for when 239 00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:47,439 Guy Raz: he invests in businesses and startups is a co- founder. 240 00:13:47,710 --> 00:13:51,190 Guy Raz: This is a criteria, and he's invested in Airbnb and 241 00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:54,510 Guy Raz: many other successful brands. And co- founder is the number 242 00:13:54,510 --> 00:13:55,459 Guy Raz: one thing on his list. 243 00:13:56,090 --> 00:13:58,329 Sean Aylmer: Wow. So how do you find the right person? If you've got a 244 00:13:58,330 --> 00:14:01,239 Sean Aylmer: great idea, how do you find the right person? Or is it more 245 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,620 Sean Aylmer: that a few people have the same great idea? 246 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,360 Guy Raz: Yeah. This is the million dollar question. Who is the 247 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,569 Guy Raz: person that you're going to start a business with and 248 00:14:10,570 --> 00:14:13,929 Guy Raz: are they the right person? And I've interviewed founders who 249 00:14:13,929 --> 00:14:16,329 Guy Raz: broke with their co- founder, who had falling outs. And 250 00:14:16,330 --> 00:14:20,660 Guy Raz: I've interviewed co- founders who had some rocky moments, who 251 00:14:21,460 --> 00:14:25,360 Guy Raz: really had to work through tension. We did the story 252 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,250 Guy Raz: of Allbirds, which is a Kiwi founder, Tim Brown, who 253 00:14:30,250 --> 00:14:32,610 Guy Raz: founded it in the Bay area, he was on the 254 00:14:32,660 --> 00:14:35,220 Guy Raz: New Zealand national soccer team. I'm sure you know a little bit about his 255 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:38,420 Guy Raz: story. It's a great brand. He and his co- founder 256 00:14:38,420 --> 00:14:43,340 Guy Raz: Joey Zwillinger, they met through their wives and they just 257 00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:45,800 Guy Raz: clicked, but they've had tension over time and they've talked 258 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,570 Guy Raz: about it and they've actually had coaches come and work 259 00:14:48,570 --> 00:14:53,670 Guy Raz: with them. It really comes down to personality. I have 260 00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:58,229 Guy Raz: found time and again that the best combination of co- 261 00:14:58,230 --> 00:15:02,040 Guy Raz: founders is where one of them is more charismatic and 262 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,290 Guy Raz: extroverted and outgoing, and the other is more sort of 263 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,650 Guy Raz: inward focused and introverted and prefers to be in the 264 00:15:09,650 --> 00:15:12,900 Guy Raz: background and behind the scenes. That kind of balance can 265 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:16,260 Guy Raz: really create magic. And so when people ask me, " How 266 00:15:16,260 --> 00:15:17,650 Guy Raz: do I find a co- founder? Who do I look 267 00:15:17,650 --> 00:15:22,080 Guy Raz: for?" There's no holy grail list that you just look 268 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:23,690 Guy Raz: at, check off and know that you're going to make 269 00:15:23,690 --> 00:15:26,700 Guy Raz: the right decision. It's always going to be a bit 270 00:15:26,700 --> 00:15:30,730 Guy Raz: of a risk, but ultimately I think you really want 271 00:15:30,730 --> 00:15:32,430 Guy Raz: to look for, and this is intuitive, you want to 272 00:15:32,430 --> 00:15:37,010 Guy Raz: look for somebody who brings skills and attributes that you 273 00:15:37,010 --> 00:15:37,530 Guy Raz: don't have. 274 00:15:38,340 --> 00:15:40,380 Sean Aylmer: And I suppose the two Steves, Steve Jobs and Steve 275 00:15:40,380 --> 00:15:43,060 Sean Aylmer: Wozniak are the greatest example of those sorts of people 276 00:15:43,060 --> 00:15:44,810 Sean Aylmer: because they are chalk and cheese. 277 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,150 Guy Raz: Totally, right. I mean, Steve Wozniak is like this weirdo 278 00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:53,800 Guy Raz: in the basement and Steve Jobs is this charismatic guy going 279 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:54,370 Guy Raz: out into the world. 280 00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:57,980 Sean Aylmer: I once had dinner with Steve Wozniak at a function, 281 00:15:58,070 --> 00:15:59,590 Sean Aylmer: there was 10 of us and I happened to be sitting next 282 00:15:59,590 --> 00:16:02,440 Sean Aylmer: to him. It was one of the most memorable nights 283 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,050 Sean Aylmer: I've ever had in my life. For a guy who 284 00:16:05,050 --> 00:16:06,950 Sean Aylmer: I thought is, this guy's going to be really weird, 285 00:16:07,340 --> 00:16:09,670 Sean Aylmer: was phenomenally entertaining. I think he gets a bad rep, 286 00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:10,200 Sean Aylmer: to be honest. 287 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,430 Guy Raz: Yeah. I know. I totally... Bet he was. I bet he was, yeah. 288 00:16:13,590 --> 00:16:17,710 Sean Aylmer: You also talk about the idea of bootstrapping and I love that idea. 289 00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:20,190 Sean Aylmer: Fear and Greed, we are bootstrapping, but it can be 290 00:16:20,190 --> 00:16:22,420 Sean Aylmer: pretty hairy. Explain that concept. 291 00:16:22,820 --> 00:16:26,020 Guy Raz: Yeah. Look, it depends on what you want to build. 292 00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:29,780 Guy Raz: If you are building a consumer packaged goods product that 293 00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:35,660 Guy Raz: requires a huge capital outlay to manufacture in a Chinese 294 00:16:35,660 --> 00:16:40,810 Guy Raz: factory in quantities of hundreds of thousands of millions, it's 295 00:16:40,810 --> 00:16:45,210 Guy Raz: sort of hard to bootstrap unless you're related somehow to 296 00:16:45,210 --> 00:16:48,660 Guy Raz: the family behind.... Name the brand, right? 297 00:16:48,660 --> 00:16:52,390 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. There's a cardboard here in Australia, the Pratt family are very well known 298 00:16:52,390 --> 00:16:53,930 Sean Aylmer: cardboard kings. So maybe you could do it then, maybe. 299 00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:57,400 Guy Raz: Exactly. If you're a member of the Pratt family, you're 300 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,340 Guy Raz: good to go. But most of us aren't. We don't 301 00:16:59,340 --> 00:17:03,530 Guy Raz: have access to hundreds of millions of dollars. The reality 302 00:17:03,530 --> 00:17:07,810 Guy Raz: is there are a lot of really interesting brands that 303 00:17:08,850 --> 00:17:13,600 Guy Raz: were built up in a small way and that essentially 304 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,910 Guy Raz: enabled the founder to retain a 100% of the ownership. 305 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:23,379 Guy Raz: The classic example is Spankx' Sara Blakely. She was a 306 00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:27,730 Guy Raz: salesperson selling fax machines and saved all of her money 307 00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:32,430 Guy Raz: to build a prototype for her undergarments. Well, they were 308 00:17:32,430 --> 00:17:37,119 Guy Raz: relatively inexpensive to make, so she could do a run of 5, 309 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:41,510 Guy Raz: 000 of them, and with that, she was able to 310 00:17:41,859 --> 00:17:45,369 Guy Raz: get Neiman Marcus, an American department store, to carry them. 311 00:17:46,740 --> 00:17:50,290 Guy Raz: She sent them to Oprah and by luck, Oprah opened 312 00:17:50,290 --> 00:17:52,570 Guy Raz: it, tried them on, loved them and then talked about 313 00:17:52,570 --> 00:17:54,820 Guy Raz: them on her show. I mean, Oprah Winfrey is the 314 00:17:54,820 --> 00:17:58,820 Guy Raz: most famous media star in America. That alone, it was 315 00:17:58,820 --> 00:18:01,840 Guy Raz: able to kind of launch her business and really, in 316 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,900 Guy Raz: the case of Sara Blakely, she had investors pounding on 317 00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:08,410 Guy Raz: her door begging to get in there. But the cashflow 318 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,350 Guy Raz: enabled her to sustain the business and grow the business 319 00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:16,330 Guy Raz: very quickly. So it can happen. It's not easy. I 320 00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:19,570 Guy Raz: find that it can happen with, with products and services 321 00:18:19,580 --> 00:18:24,530 Guy Raz: that are relatively manageable to produce. One of my favorite 322 00:18:24,650 --> 00:18:26,980 Guy Raz: examples is 1- 800- GOT- JUNK, which I think is 323 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,970 Guy Raz: also in Australia. It's a moving company, started by a 324 00:18:30,970 --> 00:18:35,810 Guy Raz: Canadian guy named Brian Scudamore. He bought a truck, a 325 00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:42,990 Guy Raz: flatbed truck in Vancouver for $ 800. And after four jobs, 326 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,659 Guy Raz: he paid his truck back. After eight jobs, he had 327 00:18:45,660 --> 00:18:47,780 Guy Raz: money to buy a second truck and hire a friend. 328 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,109 Guy Raz: After 15 jobs, he could buy a third truck. I 329 00:18:50,109 --> 00:18:52,730 Guy Raz: mean, this amazing business idea. And all he did was 330 00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:57,160 Guy Raz: paint 1- 800- GOT- JUNK. He bought that 800 number, 331 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,800 Guy Raz: which was available for very little, somebody didn't even know 332 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,610 Guy Raz: that it spelled 1- 800- GOT- JUNK. They just had 333 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,740 Guy Raz: the number. He begged them for the number, painted it 334 00:19:06,740 --> 00:19:08,500 Guy Raz: on the side of his trucks in Vancouver. And today 335 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:09,619 Guy Raz: it's a huge business. 336 00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:13,060 Sean Aylmer: Incredible. As I'm talking to you, you are always telling 337 00:19:13,060 --> 00:19:16,730 Sean Aylmer: stories about companies and that's how you think about it, and I think it's a great way to 338 00:19:16,730 --> 00:19:19,570 Sean Aylmer: deliver the message of business. You also, in your book, talk 339 00:19:19,570 --> 00:19:22,090 Sean Aylmer: about knowing the why is often the bridge between the 340 00:19:22,090 --> 00:19:26,670 Sean Aylmer: founding and funding, which I think relates to the storytelling bit. 341 00:19:27,060 --> 00:19:27,250 Guy Raz: Yeah. 342 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:28,360 Sean Aylmer: What did you mean by that? 343 00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:31,470 Guy Raz: I mean, it's what I sort of said earlier, which 344 00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:34,580 Guy Raz: is every business is a story. And it doesn't have 345 00:19:34,580 --> 00:19:39,100 Guy Raz: to be a huge billion dollar unicorn like Canva or Atlassian. It 346 00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:44,070 Guy Raz: can be somebody who installs HVACs. There's a story... Or 347 00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:48,810 Guy Raz: the corner store, or the kabob shop. Behind every business there's 348 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,490 Guy Raz: a story. There's somebody who came to Australia to open 349 00:19:53,490 --> 00:19:57,500 Guy Raz: up something, to support their family, or somebody who decided 350 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:01,970 Guy Raz: to deliver a better quality HVAC service in their neighborhood 351 00:20:01,970 --> 00:20:05,540 Guy Raz: because the existing one sucked. And so every business is 352 00:20:05,540 --> 00:20:09,280 Guy Raz: a story. I think that when you understand the story, 353 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,780 Guy Raz: it becomes much, much easier to gather people around you 354 00:20:14,780 --> 00:20:17,250 Guy Raz: who believe in the mission that you are trying to 355 00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:21,410 Guy Raz: accomplish, whether it's providing a better service or trying to 356 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,160 Guy Raz: introduce a product that somehow improves people's lives in some 357 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,660 Guy Raz: ways or makes it easier. Every business or product out 358 00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:34,629 Guy Raz: there essentially began as a problem that somebody was trying 359 00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:38,570 Guy Raz: to solve or improve on. So when you have the 360 00:20:38,570 --> 00:20:43,030 Guy Raz: story, it becomes much, much easier to create a powerful 361 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,980 Guy Raz: connection between the people who work with you, between you 362 00:20:46,980 --> 00:20:49,600 Guy Raz: and the people who've invested in your business, and ultimately 363 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,680 Guy Raz: your customers. If your customers understand why you do what 364 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:58,590 Guy Raz: you do and why the product you offer is meaningful, 365 00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:02,330 Guy Raz: the connection to what you do is much stronger. I've 366 00:21:02,330 --> 00:21:05,830 Guy Raz: found that businesses that... And I'm not talking about a 367 00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:09,770 Guy Raz: BS story, I'm not talking about a PR story. I'm 368 00:21:09,770 --> 00:21:12,790 Guy Raz: talking about a real story. Why is it that you 369 00:21:12,790 --> 00:21:15,689 Guy Raz: do what you do? What is the idea behind it? 370 00:21:15,690 --> 00:21:18,320 Guy Raz: What is it that you want people to walk away 371 00:21:18,330 --> 00:21:22,010 Guy Raz: from it thinking? I once interviewed Jimmy Fallon. You know 372 00:21:22,010 --> 00:21:23,510 Guy Raz: Jimmy Fallon? He's a late night chat show. 373 00:21:25,670 --> 00:21:25,730 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Everyone knows Jimmy Fallon. Yep. 374 00:21:25,869 --> 00:21:27,369 Guy Raz: I got a chance to be on his show a few 375 00:21:27,369 --> 00:21:30,610 Guy Raz: times. He's an amazing person. Once I interviewed him in 376 00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:33,270 Guy Raz: LA for an event that he did. He asked me 377 00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:34,990 Guy Raz: to interview him. And I said, " What do you want 378 00:21:34,990 --> 00:21:37,020 Guy Raz: people to walk away from at the end of the 379 00:21:37,020 --> 00:21:39,950 Guy Raz: night?" Because it's a hard time in the US right now. 380 00:21:40,090 --> 00:21:44,619 Guy Raz: We've got... It's a difficult moment. The political situation in 381 00:21:44,619 --> 00:21:48,330 Guy Raz: the US is really depressing and there's a lot of 382 00:21:48,330 --> 00:21:50,660 Guy Raz: division. I mean, it's really tough time. And I said 383 00:21:50,660 --> 00:21:53,520 Guy Raz: to him, " What do you want people to walk away 384 00:21:54,020 --> 00:21:56,720 Guy Raz: from, from your show?" He said, " I want people... People 385 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,399 Guy Raz: are just stressed out and there's a lot of anxiety. 386 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,090 Guy Raz: I want people to just have to... Turn my show on at 11: 387 00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:09,210 Guy Raz: 30 at night and just laugh and smile and escape, 388 00:22:09,650 --> 00:22:12,970 Guy Raz: and then go to sleep." And I just thought, what 389 00:22:12,970 --> 00:22:15,700 Guy Raz: a great purpose, what a great mission. And everybody who 390 00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:18,780 Guy Raz: works for him, because that is a business, everybody who 391 00:22:18,780 --> 00:22:21,190 Guy Raz: works on his show believes in that mission. And they're so 392 00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:24,260 Guy Raz: kind, and they're so motivated and so committed to what 393 00:22:24,260 --> 00:22:30,080 Guy Raz: he does because he has that story built into that brand. 394 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,619 Sean Aylmer: I mean, one of your chapters is actually called, I 395 00:22:32,619 --> 00:22:35,160 Sean Aylmer: think, It Can't Be All About Money. I suppose that's 396 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,020 Sean Aylmer: exactly what you're saying. You have to have a mission. 397 00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:37,900 Sean Aylmer: You have to have a reason. 398 00:22:38,510 --> 00:22:43,290 Guy Raz: Right. And look, I'm not denigrating money. If anybody watching 399 00:22:43,290 --> 00:22:45,240 Guy Raz: wants to send me money, I'd happily take it. 400 00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:47,690 Sean Aylmer: No, I'm the same. Very happy to take anything. 401 00:22:48,170 --> 00:22:48,840 Guy Raz: Right. You take it too Sean, right? 402 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,002 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. (crosstalk) . 403 00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:53,290 Guy Raz: And of course, many of the brands and pretty much 404 00:22:53,290 --> 00:22:54,940 Guy Raz: all the companies that have been on the show, their 405 00:22:54,970 --> 00:23:00,350 Guy Raz: founders are fabulously wealthy. I don't think of wealth as 406 00:23:00,350 --> 00:23:03,040 Guy Raz: a measure of success. (crosstalk) I know that's a 407 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,710 Guy Raz: cliche and we hear that. But hear me out for a second. 408 00:23:05,869 --> 00:23:10,810 Guy Raz: I mean, I actually think that the measure of success 409 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,970 Guy Raz: for any entrepreneur is building something sustainable, building something that 410 00:23:15,970 --> 00:23:19,220 Guy Raz: can sustain your life. And maybe, if you're lucky, the 411 00:23:19,220 --> 00:23:22,179 Guy Raz: lives of another one or two or three people who 412 00:23:22,180 --> 00:23:25,699 Guy Raz: you employ. I mean, it's a pretty great outcome. My 413 00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:28,219 Guy Raz: dad was a small businessman. He had a small jewelry 414 00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:31,909 Guy Raz: store he started at 41 years old. He's retired now 415 00:23:32,340 --> 00:23:35,639 Guy Raz: and he didn't make a pile of cash, but he 416 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,310 Guy Raz: made enough money to support three kids, four kids eventually, 417 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,609 Guy Raz: and seven or eight people who worked for him. That's 418 00:23:42,609 --> 00:23:43,810 Guy Raz: pretty great. And that, to me- 419 00:23:43,810 --> 00:23:44,651 Sean Aylmer: That's success. 420 00:23:44,651 --> 00:23:44,861 Guy Raz: That's success. 421 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,280 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Now, look, you mentioned Canva 422 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,420 Sean Aylmer: earlier on. Melanie Perkins is the 32 year old Australian co- 423 00:23:52,420 --> 00:23:56,090 Sean Aylmer: founder, it's an online design platform for free. How did 424 00:23:56,090 --> 00:23:57,770 Sean Aylmer: you come across Melanie and Canva? 425 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,010 Guy Raz: We really spend a lot of time researching different brands 426 00:24:02,020 --> 00:24:05,710 Guy Raz: and products. And we look for a range of founders. 427 00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:09,359 Guy Raz: It's not always easy for us to interview people outside 428 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,190 Guy Raz: of the United States, just for logistical reasons, especially now 429 00:24:13,190 --> 00:24:18,090 Guy Raz: during COVID because we have a very elaborate tech setup. 430 00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:22,650 Guy Raz: We actually send people a studio in a box, microphones 431 00:24:22,650 --> 00:24:25,760 Guy Raz: and all this equipment, to make sure the fidelity of 432 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,420 Guy Raz: a recording is very strong, but we're always looking for 433 00:24:28,570 --> 00:24:32,100 Guy Raz: founders all around the world. I think where I wish 434 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,859 Guy Raz: we could have more founders from are places like China 435 00:24:34,859 --> 00:24:38,520 Guy Raz: and India, but for a variety of reasons, it's been 436 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:43,170 Guy Raz: challenging. We generally have been hearing from founders of all 437 00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:46,220 Guy Raz: races and backgrounds, but generally from the English- speaking world. 438 00:24:46,460 --> 00:24:50,700 Guy Raz: So Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the US, the UK, but 439 00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:56,740 Guy Raz: really it's about looking for them. And Melanie came on 440 00:24:56,740 --> 00:24:58,560 Guy Raz: a radar screen a couple years ago and I love 441 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,510 Guy Raz: her story. She came to the US just totally determined 442 00:25:02,850 --> 00:25:05,750 Guy Raz: to launch this company. She had no experience and she 443 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:11,690 Guy Raz: just had this drive and this desire, this burning desire 444 00:25:12,020 --> 00:25:14,630 Guy Raz: to build this thing that she really believed the world 445 00:25:14,630 --> 00:25:15,669 Guy Raz: needed. And she was right. 446 00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:20,770 Sean Aylmer: You talk about entrepreneurs' inextinguishable belief in their idea, which 447 00:25:20,770 --> 00:25:24,120 Sean Aylmer: Melanie definitely had. Can that work against them, though? 448 00:25:25,210 --> 00:25:28,750 Guy Raz: Oh yeah, no question about it. Especially if the problem 449 00:25:28,750 --> 00:25:31,131 Guy Raz: you are solving is a problem only you have. I mean, essentially- 450 00:25:31,131 --> 00:25:34,090 Sean Aylmer: Yes. I know that. 451 00:25:34,090 --> 00:25:38,810 Guy Raz: ... no one's going to buy that product. But really you have to 452 00:25:38,810 --> 00:25:40,859 Guy Raz: come up with an idea that solves a problem that 453 00:25:40,859 --> 00:25:43,879 Guy Raz: not only you have, but presumably that lots of other 454 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,780 Guy Raz: people have. And actually, the reason why that's important is 455 00:25:47,780 --> 00:25:51,150 Guy Raz: because there will be times when you're launching a business 456 00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:53,040 Guy Raz: or even putting an idea out into the world that's 457 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:58,010 Guy Raz: disruptive where you will have people doubting. It comes with 458 00:25:58,010 --> 00:26:00,780 Guy Raz: the territory. It is practically an article of faith that 459 00:26:00,780 --> 00:26:03,510 Guy Raz: will happen. People will say, " It sucks. It's not going 460 00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:06,970 Guy Raz: to work." Well, whatever they might say. And in order 461 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,250 Guy Raz: to actually plow through that and deal with that, you 462 00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:14,189 Guy Raz: really have to believe that this product or service you're 463 00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:17,150 Guy Raz: putting out into the world is something the world actually 464 00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:20,260 Guy Raz: needs, really needs and really does solve a problem for 465 00:26:20,260 --> 00:26:22,500 Guy Raz: a lot of people. I'll give you an example. One 466 00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:24,180 Guy Raz: of my favorite, it's a story I tell in the book, 467 00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:28,100 Guy Raz: one of my favorite entrepreneurs ever is an American entrepreneur named 468 00:26:28,130 --> 00:26:32,220 Guy Raz: Tristan Walker. He's an African American guy who had a 469 00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:35,780 Guy Raz: problem because every time he shaved, he would get razor 470 00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:38,970 Guy Raz: bumps. Well, men who have very, very curly hair have 471 00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:42,139 Guy Raz: this problem, because if you use a traditional Gillette razor, 472 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,310 Guy Raz: or whatever five- blade razor you can buy at the drug 473 00:26:45,310 --> 00:26:49,470 Guy Raz: store, it shaves under your skin. And then the hair, 474 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,989 Guy Raz: if you've got curly hair grows right back into your 475 00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:56,030 Guy Raz: skin, and it creates painful, painful rash and scarring that 476 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:59,630 Guy Raz: many Black and Brown men around the world have dealt 477 00:26:59,630 --> 00:27:03,119 Guy Raz: with forever. And in the US, there are really were 478 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,990 Guy Raz: no good products for Brown and Black men and men 479 00:27:06,990 --> 00:27:10,540 Guy Raz: with curly hair to avoid this. And so he created 480 00:27:10,540 --> 00:27:14,730 Guy Raz: a razor, a double- edged single blade called the bevel 481 00:27:14,730 --> 00:27:16,700 Guy Raz: razor. And he went to investors and he said, " Hey, 482 00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:18,139 Guy Raz: I've got this product. It's going to solve a problem 483 00:27:18,140 --> 00:27:20,800 Guy Raz: for a lot of men like me." And investors who 484 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,900 Guy Raz: are mostly White men were like, " Ah, I don't see 485 00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:26,680 Guy Raz: a market here. I don't see where this is going 486 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,430 Guy Raz: to go." But that didn't deter him because he knew 487 00:27:30,930 --> 00:27:33,660 Guy Raz: that not only did he have this problem, but that 488 00:27:33,859 --> 00:27:37,389 Guy Raz: millions of Black and Brown men and women in America 489 00:27:37,869 --> 00:27:40,609 Guy Raz: had this same problem. And so it didn't matter if 490 00:27:40,609 --> 00:27:42,710 Guy Raz: he heard no, because he knew that if he couldn't 491 00:27:42,710 --> 00:27:45,240 Guy Raz: bring this out into the war old, nobody could. And it was as 492 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,859 Guy Raz: simple as that. I mean, every single day, he plowed 493 00:27:49,859 --> 00:27:52,580 Guy Raz: through because he knew this was a problem that a 494 00:27:52,580 --> 00:27:54,960 Guy Raz: lot of people had and that he had to solve it. 495 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,330 Guy Raz: And he did, he was right. It's today's owned by 496 00:27:57,330 --> 00:28:00,990 Guy Raz: Proctor and Gamble. The product is available at every Walmart 497 00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:05,440 Guy Raz: and Target and Walgreens all over the United States, and 498 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,070 Guy Raz: it's a hugely successful product. 499 00:28:07,670 --> 00:28:11,210 Sean Aylmer: Great story. Great story. Tell me, you talk about building a culture as 500 00:28:11,210 --> 00:28:13,369 Sean Aylmer: well and not a cult. They can get a bit 501 00:28:13,369 --> 00:28:15,080 Sean Aylmer: gray, those areas, culture and cult. 502 00:28:15,630 --> 00:28:17,530 Guy Raz: I mean, when you are building a business, you want 503 00:28:17,530 --> 00:28:21,020 Guy Raz: to think about one important question, among many, but you 504 00:28:21,020 --> 00:28:23,440 Guy Raz: really want to think about this question, which is, " Is 505 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,090 Guy Raz: the business about me and can it survive without me?" 506 00:28:28,090 --> 00:28:31,380 Guy Raz: And your answer should be " No, it's not about me. 507 00:28:31,380 --> 00:28:33,929 Guy Raz: And yes, it can survive without me." Because if you're 508 00:28:33,930 --> 00:28:36,460 Guy Raz: building a business that depends only on you, you will 509 00:28:36,460 --> 00:28:40,209 Guy Raz: quickly realize you cannot scale yourself. And the value of 510 00:28:40,210 --> 00:28:43,940 Guy Raz: your business will be diminished. If it the brand is built 511 00:28:43,950 --> 00:28:48,200 Guy Raz: around you as a person. I mean, unless you're building 512 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,970 Guy Raz: a media company. I mean, Oprah can't be Oprah without 513 00:28:50,970 --> 00:28:55,000 Guy Raz: Oprah, right? But there are a lot of ancillary products 514 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,340 Guy Raz: out there. There's a magazine and there's cooking lines and 515 00:28:57,340 --> 00:28:59,470 Guy Raz: there's a production company, and there's all kinds of things 516 00:28:59,470 --> 00:29:02,459 Guy Raz: that don't need Oprah. But when you're building a brand 517 00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:05,650 Guy Raz: that is about a product or service, you really want 518 00:29:05,650 --> 00:29:09,800 Guy Raz: to think out the brand or the product or the 519 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,550 Guy Raz: service as the star and not you as the star. 520 00:29:12,670 --> 00:29:14,110 Guy Raz: The example I use in the book is a brand 521 00:29:14,110 --> 00:29:16,930 Guy Raz: called American Apparel, which I think was in Australia at 522 00:29:17,030 --> 00:29:20,980 Guy Raz: one point. A great brand, made excellent apparel in Los 523 00:29:20,980 --> 00:29:24,500 Guy Raz: Angeles, which is unusual in this day and age. And 524 00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:28,290 Guy Raz: the brand went belly up because the founder made the 525 00:29:28,290 --> 00:29:33,110 Guy Raz: brand about himself. That only he could shepherd this product 526 00:29:33,530 --> 00:29:36,900 Guy Raz: through and only he could run it. That ultimately became 527 00:29:37,370 --> 00:29:39,670 Guy Raz: its downfall, which I describe in the book. 528 00:29:40,410 --> 00:29:42,740 Sean Aylmer: We're coming to end of the podcast where we have to start talking 529 00:29:42,740 --> 00:29:47,160 Sean Aylmer: about selling. We've been talking about creating and building, but when does an entrepreneur, 530 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,360 Sean Aylmer: or when should an entrepreneur, sell a business? Do they 531 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,040 Sean Aylmer: generally make the right choice on that? 532 00:29:52,930 --> 00:29:55,670 Guy Raz: Yeah. It's a very hard question to answer because it's 533 00:29:55,670 --> 00:30:01,180 Guy Raz: such a personal question. There are some entrepreneurs who grew up with nothing, who 534 00:30:01,190 --> 00:30:04,620 Guy Raz: grew up impoverished. And for then, the idea of cashing 535 00:30:04,620 --> 00:30:10,040 Guy Raz: out with 20, 30, 50, a 1000 million dollars is life changing generational wealth, 536 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,670 Guy Raz: especially for People of Color in the United States. If 537 00:30:12,670 --> 00:30:16,670 Guy Raz: you're offered a hundred million and you know that for 538 00:30:16,670 --> 00:30:18,970 Guy Raz: three or four or five or 10 generations, it's going 539 00:30:18,970 --> 00:30:22,910 Guy Raz: to be transformational, it's very hard to say no. I 540 00:30:22,910 --> 00:30:27,690 Guy Raz: think that it really depends on what ultimately your goals 541 00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:31,570 Guy Raz: are. I think that most founders that I've interviewed go 542 00:30:31,570 --> 00:30:35,220 Guy Raz: into their business really wanting to create 100- year companies. 543 00:30:35,570 --> 00:30:36,860 Guy Raz: And many of them will say that to you. I 544 00:30:36,860 --> 00:30:40,090 Guy Raz: think if you ask Melanie of Canva, Melanie Perkins, she'll say, " 545 00:30:40,090 --> 00:30:41,630 Guy Raz: I want this to be a 100- year business. I 546 00:30:41,630 --> 00:30:47,050 Guy Raz: know Allbirds, those guys say the same thing. But ultimately 547 00:30:47,050 --> 00:30:50,120 Guy Raz: is a personal decision. Where are you in life? What 548 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,830 Guy Raz: circumstances are you facing? And what is it that you 549 00:30:54,830 --> 00:30:57,780 Guy Raz: want to do next? I will caution anybody who does 550 00:30:57,780 --> 00:31:01,360 Guy Raz: find themselves in that situation that... I've had conversations with 551 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,240 Guy Raz: founders who find themselves in a position where they are 552 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,700 Guy Raz: very rich and very sad, because they don't have anywhere 553 00:31:08,700 --> 00:31:10,990 Guy Raz: to go. They don't have a team. They don't have 554 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,510 Guy Raz: the camaraderie of the office. They don't have the hustle 555 00:31:14,740 --> 00:31:18,760 Guy Raz: and bustle. Nobody's calling them up anymore except to ask 556 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:24,400 Guy Raz: them for money or for philanthropic reasons. It's lonely and 557 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,750 Guy Raz: it can get really boring. I actually just had a 558 00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:29,459 Guy Raz: conversation with one of the founders who was on my 559 00:31:29,460 --> 00:31:33,700 Guy Raz: show about this very issue. And this founder is very 560 00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:37,650 Guy Raz: rich and going through a difficult time. So it's a double- 561 00:31:37,650 --> 00:31:40,340 Guy Raz: edged sword and it's a very personal decision. 562 00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:42,720 Sean Aylmer: Finally, do you believe in luck, Guy? 563 00:31:43,470 --> 00:31:46,860 Guy Raz: I'm a huge to believe her in luck. I met 564 00:31:46,860 --> 00:31:51,980 Guy Raz: my wife at a barbecue 20 years ago that neither 565 00:31:51,980 --> 00:31:55,020 Guy Raz: of us was supposed to be at. I didn't even 566 00:31:55,020 --> 00:31:57,620 Guy Raz: talk to her there. I actually saw her there. Asked 567 00:31:57,620 --> 00:31:59,739 Guy Raz: my friend whose barbecue it was, who she was. He 568 00:31:59,740 --> 00:32:01,770 Guy Raz: went through his whole list of people until he landed 569 00:32:01,770 --> 00:32:03,500 Guy Raz: on her. And he said, " Oh yeah, she's somebody I 570 00:32:04,050 --> 00:32:07,660 Guy Raz: kind of know from college." And he contacted this woman 571 00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:09,820 Guy Raz: who's now my wife and brought her to a party 572 00:32:09,820 --> 00:32:12,450 Guy Raz: the next weekend. That was 20 years ago. That was luck. 573 00:32:13,210 --> 00:32:15,260 Sean Aylmer: Guy Raz, thank you for speaking to Fear and Greed 574 00:32:15,260 --> 00:32:15,760 Sean Aylmer: this morning. 575 00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:17,910 Guy Raz: Sean, thank you. Thanks so much for having me. 576 00:32:18,450 --> 00:32:21,330 Sean Aylmer: That was Guy Raz, host of the hugely successful podcast 577 00:32:21,330 --> 00:32:23,870 Sean Aylmer: How I Built This. His book, How I Built This, 578 00:32:23,940 --> 00:32:27,380 Sean Aylmer: The Unexpected Paths to Success From the World's Most Inspiring 579 00:32:27,470 --> 00:32:31,130 Sean Aylmer: Entrepreneurs is available now. Trust me, you don't need to 580 00:32:31,130 --> 00:32:33,980 Sean Aylmer: be an entrepreneur to enjoy this book. Guy is a 581 00:32:33,980 --> 00:32:37,160 Sean Aylmer: brilliant storyteller, and How I Built This is a must read.