Speaker 1: And I'm glad you got here safe. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: It's great see you guys. Thank you for coming. I
Speaker 1: really appreciate it. You kept your promise, which was nice.
Speaker 1: I think you were drunk when you promise me, but
Speaker 1: that's okay. I'll take it.
Speaker 2: So that's veteran tech journalist Kara Swisher in one of
Speaker 2: many conversations she's had with Elon Musk, public and private
Speaker 2: over the years.
Speaker 1: You'll be a good king. Thank you, Elon Musk.
Speaker 2: Thank you for nowadays they don't talk. Elon Musk is,
Speaker 2: of course, in the process of dismantling US government spending
Speaker 2: as the head of the new Department of Government Efficiency or.
Speaker 3: DOGE, unelected billionaire Elon Musk is taking a sledgehammer to
Speaker 3: the federal government, whose reports that secrecy is becoming a
Speaker 3: defining trade of Musk's DOGE.
Speaker 2: And Kara Swisher says, the techno dictatorship he's building with
Speaker 2: Trump's blessing is just the beginning. From Schwartz Media, I'm
Speaker 2: Ruby Jones. This is seven am Today, author of burn book,
Speaker 2: Kara Swisher on what Elon Musk wants and how he
Speaker 2: got it. It's Tuesday, February eleven. So, Cara, You've known
Speaker 2: Elon Musk for a very long time. He was one
Speaker 2: of many tech bros who you reported on and talked
Speaker 2: to regularly, and he was just like a lot of them.
Speaker 2: He was ambitious, and he was liberal. He supported Obama
Speaker 2: when he was in office, but then during the pandemic,
Speaker 2: Musk really changed.
Speaker 1: Tell me about it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were actually talking during the first Trump administration
Speaker 4: when he went to that meeting with Trump and Trump Tower,
Speaker 4: and he's the one that confirmed it to me actually
Speaker 4: that he was going and it was happening.
Speaker 3: A senior official on the Trump transition team who told
Speaker 3: me that Elon Musk arrived shortly ago. Elon mus CEO
Speaker 3: of space k Tesla billing rockets and cars and sort.
Speaker 4: Of stuff in the US, and he was helping to
Speaker 4: change Trump's mind on this, especially immigration and climate change.
Speaker 4: Think's really important that people demonstrate to goma's around the
Speaker 4: world that they care about climate change.
Speaker 1: Are you sincerely trying to save the world. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to do good things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're trying to do good things and you're
Speaker 2: a millionaire.
Speaker 4: It was also very interested in predicting gay and lesbians
Speaker 4: and trans people, and he certainly isn't now everything he
Speaker 4: was very interested in. He shifted on pretty dramatically, and
Speaker 4: I don't know why. I think there's a combination of
Speaker 4: his personal life. He had some issues with his trans daughter,
Speaker 4: not all his issues, not hers, She's wonderful. I think
Speaker 4: he had COVID sort of radicalized him in a weird
Speaker 4: way because they were shutting down some of those factories.
Speaker 4: He felt that Tesla was critical, its survival was critical
Speaker 4: the future of the human race, which he'd said on
Speaker 4: more than one occasion to me, I think he thought
Speaker 4: he got really started to go down that dank hole
Speaker 4: online that was problematic.
Speaker 1: That changes you a little bit.
Speaker 4: And I think he also, you know then what was
Speaker 4: stutjournals written about his use academy.
Speaker 1: I think that disassociated him quite a bit.
Speaker 4: And then becoming that wealthy sort of makes you into
Speaker 4: a magnomaniac.
Speaker 1: No matter how he's licent.
Speaker 4: You have to be a pretty fantastic person to keep
Speaker 4: up with that kind of adoration and idolatry.
Speaker 2: Really, I mean, when you talk about the types of
Speaker 2: things that Elon must began talking about and tweeting about,
Speaker 2: you know, starting with the questioning of the pandemic, and
Speaker 2: then you know, moving on to many other things. I
Speaker 2: think we're you know, great replacement theory. Now, I suppose
Speaker 2: my question for you is, to what extent do you
Speaker 2: think that he believes everything he posts or is he
Speaker 2: sort of stirring outrage to distract people?
Speaker 1: Where does he fall on that? Does it matter?
Speaker 4: Does it matter what he believes? I mean, is it
Speaker 4: better if he believes it?
Speaker 1: It's all heinous.
Speaker 4: It's like whether he's anti immigrant or anti trans people
Speaker 4: are anti legal. You know, I don't know that it
Speaker 4: matters whether he thinks. I think he's a contrarian at heart.
Speaker 4: No matter what, I think, this is just the thing
Speaker 4: that he wants to use to get to power right now,
Speaker 4: and so he takes it to a huge extreme.
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, I guess it's the question of whether
Speaker 2: he is actually ideological about all of this or whether
Speaker 2: you know that kind of idea that you hear around
Speaker 2: Oh right, Internet culture?
Speaker 1: Is this actually a joke? He could be. He thinks
Speaker 1: everything's a joke. He thinks everything he used to love
Speaker 1: dank memes.
Speaker 4: Also, what I want to say, and if if the
Speaker 4: consequence of that is losing money, so bea so maybe
Speaker 4: it's the ultimate joke, but it has real world implications.
Speaker 4: I mean, but it's all negative and cruel and belittling
Speaker 4: of people, and it's all law breaking. It's really a
Speaker 4: lot of it is like just running through the government
Speaker 4: without any kind of guard rails. And you know, he
Speaker 4: knows he can do it because he has the history
Speaker 4: of doing it. This is a man who blows up
Speaker 4: rockets in order to get to the great rocket, and
Speaker 4: he's willing to do that, and other people either can't,
Speaker 4: like NASA, or won't, and so he's very risk tolerant.
Speaker 4: I think he you know, and now he thinks he
Speaker 4: knows better, which he doesn't.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, let's talk about what he's been doing over
Speaker 2: the past few weeks with his Department of Government Efficiency
Speaker 2: taking on this task of quote, uncovering fraud. But what
Speaker 2: he is doing is he's shut down the US Agency
Speaker 2: for International Development, and then there's the Treasury issue, which
Speaker 2: has just been blocked. But what have you been thinking
Speaker 2: as you have watched that unfold.
Speaker 4: I've been thinking, our government we're in the middle of
Speaker 4: a constitutional crisis, in a very severe one, and now
Speaker 4: today they're attacking the judiciary. I think they're not going
Speaker 4: to enforce what the judiciary decides. And then what happens
Speaker 4: if the judiciary rules against Trump? And then the US
Speaker 4: Marshal Service doesn't do anything about it because it's under
Speaker 4: the purview of the Justice Department here, So we're in
Speaker 4: the middle of a real constitutional.
Speaker 2: Persons coming up after the break the three factors that
Speaker 2: have led America to where it is today, and one
Speaker 2: of them is Australian Kara Elon Musk is right now
Speaker 2: in an incredibly powerful position with Trump's backing. So what
Speaker 2: do you think he is going to do with it?
Speaker 2: How do you think he sees governance and the way
Speaker 2: the US should be run.
Speaker 4: He wants it to be run like a techno authoritarian
Speaker 4: whatever phrase you want to use. It's dictatorship. Really, I
Speaker 4: don't know what else to say, techno dictatorship. What they
Speaker 4: say is best and what they want is best, and
Speaker 4: they would like to to be no rules and everyone
Speaker 4: gets out of their way and they get to do
Speaker 4: what they want. And that said, you know, these free
Speaker 4: speech warriors regularly censor people, you know, regularly censor people,
Speaker 4: throw people off depending on what they think.
Speaker 1: So that sounds like a dictatorship.
Speaker 2: To me, and what is your read on the dynamic
Speaker 2: between Mosk and Trump and how long that partnership is
Speaker 2: going to last.
Speaker 4: Well, it's in Must's interest to keep it going, so
Speaker 4: he'll probably pretend he's a beta to Trump's out but
Speaker 4: as long as.
Speaker 1: He can, he's not, but he'll pretend he is. And
Speaker 1: to keep Trump happy.
Speaker 4: I mean, you've got an elderly man who likes power
Speaker 4: and money, and he has someone else to carry out
Speaker 4: the cudgel part, right, someone else who doesn't mind getting
Speaker 4: his hands dirty. Trump never gets his hands dirty, if
Speaker 4: you notice, right, And so it's a perfect relationship in
Speaker 4: that regard. So I thought at first they might fight
Speaker 4: and it wouldn't last, but now I see it's in
Speaker 4: their interest to do so.
Speaker 1: And they're not unsimilar, No.
Speaker 2: They seem quite similar in a lot of ways.
Speaker 4: They're overly sensitive, grandiose liars, hypocrites, but you know, I
Speaker 4: think they have a great partnership in that regard and
Speaker 4: they will.
Speaker 1: Continue to do it.
Speaker 4: Musk needs the power that the president does have in
Speaker 4: terms of getting into the government and getting his hands
Speaker 4: in there with all that data which he dearly love
Speaker 4: to get on Grok.
Speaker 1: I assume and.
Speaker 4: Then the president needs the money that he can use
Speaker 4: to threaten all those congress people who won't have a backbone.
Speaker 4: They'll break their backs with the money and they'll get
Speaker 4: them out of office.
Speaker 2: And this partnership between Trump and Musk is the defining
Speaker 2: partnership of the moment. But he was not the only
Speaker 2: tech CEO at the inauguration. Mark Zuckerberg was there, so
Speaker 2: was Sam Altman. So what do you think is going
Speaker 2: to happen as these other relationships with Trump play out?
Speaker 1: Acquiescent quizzlings. I don't know what can we call them.
Speaker 4: I mean, they have interests and everyone has a different level.
Speaker 4: I don't think Tim Cook or Sam Altman really wanted
Speaker 4: to be there.
Speaker 1: I don't think they had a choice, right.
Speaker 4: I think they're not in line with the Trump administration,
Speaker 4: but they will say things that will get them out
Speaker 4: of harms away, just like Jack Travis Kelsey did for
Speaker 4: the Super Bowl.
Speaker 1: He's like, I'm glad he's there.
Speaker 4: He's not glad he's there, but he said he's glad
Speaker 4: he's there because he has to write.
Speaker 1: He can't pick a fight with the present in it.
Speaker 4: There's a little more in line with them, like Mars Zuckerberg,
Speaker 4: who was like I called him a sad weather Bane.
Speaker 4: He'll do whatever it takes to push forward the meadows
Speaker 4: a company, So he'll do whatever it takes. And Jeff Bezos,
Speaker 4: I think, kind of likes it and he wants to
Speaker 4: get into space, and so he's got a last time out.
Speaker 4: Trump attacked him all the time and he doesn't have
Speaker 4: the taste for that anymore. So he really wants to
Speaker 4: be in the in the room. The others are just like,
Speaker 4: there's nothing I can do. I have to go along
Speaker 4: with these people, these thugs.
Speaker 2: Is there anyone in Silicon Valley likely to push back
Speaker 2: against Trump?
Speaker 4: There has been Bill Gates, of all people, is pushback
Speaker 4: very politely, you know, but he has in some fashion
Speaker 4: saying he thinks all this is nuts. And Reed Hoffman
Speaker 4: has funded enormous childes to Trump, including paying for Ejene
Speaker 4: Carroll's legal case. But I think he's nervous. I just
Speaker 4: had him on my podcast. I think the man has
Speaker 4: a go bag. I'm sure the man has a go bag.
Speaker 4: Like where's he gonna go Australia. I guess, I don't know. Somewhere.
Speaker 4: It's got a private plane. He'll be fine.
Speaker 2: Probably, And from reading your book, I mean it's clear
Speaker 2: that you you've been really excited at times by you know,
Speaker 2: the innovation of Silicon Valley, and you've been there from
Speaker 2: the get go. But given you know where we are now,
Speaker 2: where it's taken us to this moment where someone like
Speaker 2: Elon Musk can take over the federal government, I mean,
Speaker 2: how do you now reflect on where that innovation has
Speaker 2: has taken us?
Speaker 1: Well, my book was about that.
Speaker 4: My book was about where this was at it and
Speaker 4: you know, I think the end of my book, I'm like,
Speaker 4: you better fucking get rent for these people because they've
Speaker 4: taken over everything. And so I was warning people and
Speaker 4: at the time everyone's like, yeah, it's too hard on them.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not hard enough. Like I don't.
Speaker 4: I just this was inevitable what they're doing, and I
Speaker 4: didn't I call them not benign. These are not benign people.
Speaker 4: I think the protests in the streets is where we're headed.
Speaker 4: I think eventually it'll be so chaotic and the economy
Speaker 4: will will be affected that it'll be too much.
Speaker 1: But the world is not enough. I think they're going
Speaker 1: to moving around the world.
Speaker 4: Look at him, he's I'm sure he'll be backing right
Speaker 4: wing people in Australia.
Speaker 1: You think Rupert Rdoch is scary, Welcome to the new world.
Speaker 4: Murdoch looks like a like a avocular old man right
Speaker 4: now at this point, but really truly he docs. I mean,
Speaker 4: he's heralded in this whole era. But that's another issue altogether.
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you think his responsibility is here?
Speaker 1: All of it?
Speaker 4: I think between in this country, gerrymandering, Rupert Murdoch, and
Speaker 4: social media has led us to where we are today.
Speaker 1: But it's a you know, this is a they're going
Speaker 1: to move to Australia.
Speaker 4: They're going to move to their move to They've already
Speaker 4: in Germany trying to press the AfD. And if your
Speaker 4: right wing are great, you should be thrilled. But let
Speaker 4: me just tell you they're coming for you too. They are.
Speaker 4: And this is what these people do. They eat themselves alive.
Speaker 4: And so you know he'll they'll take it. They'll take
Speaker 4: it global, They'll take it global.
Speaker 2: And Kara, in your racing book, you do lay out
Speaker 2: the threat of Silicon Valley and where this drive to
Speaker 2: power could lead. And I want to know a bit
Speaker 2: more about how you feel about that now, whether there
Speaker 2: is a sense of frustration or weariness around having made
Speaker 2: that warning and then watched it come true.
Speaker 1: You know, you caught me on a bad day.
Speaker 4: It caught me in a bed day because Elon attacked
Speaker 4: me on Twitter, and so I got a lot of
Speaker 4: death threats.
Speaker 1: So that was nice. That was a nice sunday for
Speaker 1: me with my kids.
Speaker 4: I just get a lot of like, really nasty stuff
Speaker 4: when it comes in. He accused me of threatening those
Speaker 4: pricks that are running around at his behest, and because
Speaker 4: I call them pricks, but they are a little pricks.
Speaker 1: And so it was really it was you got me
Speaker 1: on a bad day, But I wish I was more hopeful.
Speaker 4: I feel terrible that I was correct, you know, I
Speaker 4: think I feel terrible that I didn't.
Speaker 1: I wasn't on to it sooner. I guess.
Speaker 4: I feel like a lot of people give me a
Speaker 4: hard time for interviewing these people as if they were normal.
Speaker 4: Well they were normal for a long time, right, and
Speaker 4: so I didn't think they would take this sort of
Speaker 4: repulsive turn, although maybe I should have anticipated it much sooner,
Speaker 4: I suspect, But no, I don't like right now having
Speaker 4: to defend democracy on a daily basis. I wish I
Speaker 4: could talk about cool stuff to cure cancer and technology
Speaker 4: that will help us go to Mars. I think go
Speaker 4: to Mars is important. I want to talk about the
Speaker 4: really cool elements of it. Instead, we're talking about this
Speaker 4: because this is what Matt was right now. In one
Speaker 4: point he called said my heart was seething with hate,
Speaker 4: and I got a whole pile of crap. Then my
Speaker 4: heart's not seething with hate. It's not seething love for him.
Speaker 4: But that's different. Every accusation is a confession. That's what
Speaker 4: I say with these people in him in particular.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it also sounds like he's trying to shut you up.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's correct. It's not working, but someday it will maybe.
Speaker 1: Good luck.
Speaker 2: Well, I hope not, Karl.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your time. All right, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Kara Swisher will be at Adelaide w Rider's Week on
Speaker 2: the fourth of March, in Sydney, at the All About
Speaker 2: Women Festival on the fifth of March, and at the
Speaker 2: Wheeler Center in Melbourne on the sixth of March. Also
Speaker 2: in the news today, Prime Minister Anthony Abernezi says he
Speaker 2: will use a scheduled call to President Trump to make
Speaker 2: the case for Australia to be exempt from US steel
Speaker 2: and aluminium tariffs as it was during the first Trump presidency.
Speaker 2: According to President Trump, the twenty five percent tariff on
Speaker 2: steel and aluminum would take effect immediately and apply to
Speaker 2: every country. The announcement wipped fifteen billion dollars from the
Speaker 2: ASX on Monday morning, and Independent Senator Lydia Thorpe has
Speaker 2: criticized the latest Closing the Gap report, labeling it a
Speaker 2: year of betrayal. Thorpe accused the government of intentionally widening
Speaker 2: the gap with harsher bail laws, increasing the number of
Speaker 2: children held on remand the latest install A woman of
Speaker 2: the Closing the Gap Report found that only five of
Speaker 2: the nineteen targets were on track to be met by
Speaker 2: twenty thirty one. Meanwhile, rates of suicide and incarceration among
Speaker 2: Ooriginal and Torres Road Islanders have grown. I'm Ruby Jones.
Speaker 1: This is seven am.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.