WEBVTT - From The Front: John Peros defamation case dismissed 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:08.480 You can listen to the Front on your smart speaker 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.760 every morning to hear the latest episode. Just say play 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:22.200 the news from the Australian. From the Australian. His What's 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:27.720 on the Front. I'm Claire Harvey. It's Wednesday, August twenty eight. 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.239 Two hundred and seventy thousand new international students will be 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:35.640 allowed to study in Australia from next year. That's after 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:40.120 a government overhaul of its attempt to cut overall migration numbers. 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.680 Thousands of construction workers marched in rallies across the country 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.760 on Tuesday. They're protesting the appointment of administrators to the 0:00:50.840 --> 0:01:02.000 underfire CFMU and voicing their support for ousted leader John Sitka. 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:06.480 A Queensland Supreme Court judge has dismissed defamation action brought 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:11.479 against The Australian over our podcast Shandy Story. Justice Peter 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:16.320 Applegarth said John Perros didn't demonstrate he'd been seriously harmed 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:21.200 by the podcast. Perros has always denied any wrongdoing. That's 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:28.360 today's episode. One of the biggest true crime podcasts in 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.840 recent years is Shandy's Story. The Australian's investigation into the 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:37.280 brutal twenty thirteen murder of a young woman, Shandy Blackburn. 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.399 The podcast created by our national Chief correspondent Hedley Thomas, 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:46.080 sparked two commissions of inquiry into how Queensland's forensic DNA 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:51.440 laboratory was totally failing victims of crime. But Shandy's story 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:55.960 also triggered a defamation case brought by Shandy's ex boyfriend, 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.920 John Perros. Perros sued the Australian's parent company Wide News, 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:06.400 Heedley Thomas, and Shandy's sister, Shanna Blackburn, and on Tuesday, 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.000 the Queensland Supreme Court dismissed Perros's case. 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.359 I was enormously relieved, Claire, and I know that Vicky 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:18.480 Blackburn and Shanna Blackburn, the mother and sister of Shandy, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:23.360 were also extremely relieved. I spoke to Vicky very soon 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.400 after we got the news and she was elated, and 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:30.920 then I spoke to Shanna and she was similarly very happy. 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:35.640 They've been through an enormous amount of grief and stress 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:41.640 and then having the person whom they believe murdered their 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:46.959 daughter and sister suing them for defamation was a very 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:52.040 difficult pill to swallow, and hopefully this finding by Justice 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.200 Applegarth will make a significant difference. 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:59.320 He is a voice actor reading the words spoken in 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:01.880 court by Justice Peter Applegarth. 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:04.040 The proceeding is dismissed. 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.880 The judge found John Perross had not meant a crucial 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.040 test for the case to proceed to a trial. 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.320 The plaintiff has not discharged his burden of proof that 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.080 Episode thirteen caused serious harm to his reputation. 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.360 This is not a finding about who killed Shandy Blackburn. 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.760 Justice Applegrath makes no comment on that. It's important to 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.120 note that John Perros was acquitted by a jury of 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:36.040 murdering Shandy. He has always denied any wrongdoing and it's 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:40.120 within his rights to appeal this finding to a higher court. 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.000 We've been in Court Claire for two years with this case. 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.560 The cost has been enormous to the newspaper and of 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.360 course the individuals who are involved, and I'm thinking particularly 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.880 of Vicky and Shanna go through enormous worry, stress and concern. 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:02.160 But they've been storn and The Australian has been very 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:06.200 staunched too. We've had to rely on our lawyers significantly 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:08.920 and they've done an amazing job. But this is the 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.680 cost of this kind of journalism. It's very expensive. It 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:18.120 doesn't come easily and we have to back ourselves and 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:20.040 fight fight. 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.719 Shandy Blackburn was left to die in a gutter in 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:32.200 the North Queensland tropical city of Mackay in February twenty thirteen. 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:36.320 She'd been stabbed more than twenty times as she walked 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:41.719 home from work. Shandy's ex boyfriend, John Perros, was charged 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:46.200 with murder, but in twenty seventeen a jury acquitted him. 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.880 Then the matter went to the coroner, who compelled Perros 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.920 to give evidence and had access to evidence that was 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:57.000 not presented to the jury that had acquitted Perros. That coroner, 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:01.760 David O'Connell in twenty nineteen, found Peros did stab Shandy 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:07.400 to death. Peros has always denied wrongdoing, and once acquitted, 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.359 Perros could not be tried again unless fresh and compelling 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.919 evidence came to light. In twenty twenty one, The Australian's 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.200 National Chief correspondent Headley Thomas came along with his podcast 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:26.279 Shandy Story. This Is Shandy sister Shanna Blackburn speaking to 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.680 Headley Thomas in episode thirteen. 0:05:29.240 --> 0:05:33.880 Am I allowed to say that there's absolutely no doubt 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.800 in our minds that John Perros is the one that 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:38.880 killed Shandy Buckburn. 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.240 One matter of fact, it was. 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:44.920 Him, But how could you be so sure? 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.320 Because I've seen more evidence than what was presented at 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:52.760 the trial. We know the evidence that was ruled out 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.640 before the trial, we know the evidence that hasn't been seen, 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:01.920 and it's undeniable. When you have seen all that evidence 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:07.320 together that there is any other person responsible for. 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:11.280 This, then what you are saying is that he's got 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:12.280 away with murder. 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.640 I think it's a letdown in our justice system. 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:22.360 I called Shanna Blackburn after Tuesday's judgment from Justice Peter Applegarth. 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:25.640 Mum and I have never really properly been able to 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:31.240 grieve Shandy because we've still been fighting for justice and 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:35.200 everything that has come along with that since. So it's 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:37.960 a step, but there's still so much more in that 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.039 whole journey of justice for Shandy that is to come. 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:46.000 I asked Shanna if she felt any hope that whoever 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.880 killed Shandy would one day be brought to justice. 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.799 There is always hope. Give me a bit emotional, because 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:54.400 I never want to let go of the fact that 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.320 there's hope, because they're always is. But I think after 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:04.120 eleven years and everything that we've been dragged through with 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:09.720 this process. It's hard to have faith injustice and in 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:12.480 the system. And I think it's also a little bit 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:13.960 of you don't want to get your hopes up. You 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.440 don't want to ever think about that moment that whoever 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:21.880 did this to her will actually one day be brought 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:24.480 to justice for what they did. It would be a 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:29.560 really amazing thing to happen. But it's very difficult to 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.720 allow ourselves to go there because of even the thought 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.440 of that, because it's just such a letdown from what 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:40.680 we've already discovered and of the system and the processes 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:42.280 and how role things can go. 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:52.200 Peris claimed Episode thirteen of Shandy's Story defamed him by 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:56.000 painting him as Shandy's murderer. The judge said John Peris's 0:07:56.000 --> 0:08:01.040 reputation had been damaged, but not by episode three. 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:06.040 Had episode thirteen been a stand alone publication, then serious 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.160 harm would be easily inferred from the gravity of the 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:15.440 defamation and the extent of its publication. Episode thirteen was, not, however, 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:21.240 a standalone publication. It was the thirteenth episode in a series, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:27.160 the first twelve episodes of which seriously injured the plaintiff's reputation. 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:31.080 I find that listeners to the first twelve episodes were 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:35.000 likely to conclude that the coroner's findings were right and 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.760 that the plaintiff had violently attacked Miss Blackburn with a 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:44.679 bladed instrument in a fast, frenzied and personal attack at 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:50.360 around twelve fifteen am on nine February twenty thirteen. This 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:54.120 conclusion is not based simply on the tendering of those 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:58.880 earlier publications. It relies on the perceived authority of the 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.520 persons whom he made those publications, and the form of 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:07.360 the publications as being the product of investigative journalism that 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:13.560 distinguishes the publication from a publication of rumors and bear allegations. 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.360 The judge said Peros's reputation had already been damaged by 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:23.920 a coroner's finding that Perros was Shandy's killer. Justice Applegarth 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.800 said the coroner's ruling, which is still live today on 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.000 the Queensland Courts website and articles about that finding, had 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:36.199 also caused Peros's reputation serious harm long before Headley's podcast 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.720 came along. At the center of this judgment is that 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.480 issue of serious harm. 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.600 The serious harm test is a new element of defamation 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:47.880 law in Australia. It's only coming to effect in the 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:52.840 last two years and it's something that's currently being decided 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.839 by the courts, being figured out as new judgments have 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:57.640 decided on the issue. 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.120 This is John Paul Cashen, a defamation specialist and a 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.880 partner at law firm Thomson Gear which advises the Australian Well. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.719 It's a new test that's become part of the law 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.880 of defamation in Australia in the last few years and 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.440 it's quite significant because what it does is switches the 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.880 onus onto the plaintiff to prove that the publication has 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.520 hurt their reputation. And what it's aimed at doing is 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.600 weeding out trivial claims. We used to have an old 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.600 law of triviality that was meant to weed out trivial 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:30.800 claims and it wasn't very effective, so they put in 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:33.880 a new one called the serious harm test, and it 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.319 means that the plaintiff has to establish not just that 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.720 it's damaged their reputation a little bit, but it must 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.760 have done serious harm to their reputation. And it's starting 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.240 to have an effect in knocking out some of these 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:48.000 smaller types of claims you know, we used to have 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.200 one star Google reviews being sued over and the courts 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.120 were getting clogged up with these sorts of cases that 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.360 were seen to be not the kind of cases that 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.040 really should be litigated in our court system, and so 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.880 the new harm test is aimed at weeding out those 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:02.680 sorts of cases. 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.240 During the hearing in the Queensland Supreme Court, a barrister 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.840 for John Perros, David Helvagian, told the court Episode thirteen 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.080 defamed Peros by suggesting the jury got it wrong and 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.360 the coroner was right, that therefore he was a murderer. 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.080 Our lawyers successfully argued that the judge should listen to 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.440 episodes one to twelve of the podcast two to hear 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:28.040 our journalism in all its context. We've used a voice 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.320 actor to bring you David Helvagian's words from the hearing 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.760 on this question of serious harm. 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:38.520 Episodes thirteen publishes one of the most serious defamatory imputations 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.480 known to society, as your honor nose. The crime of 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.960 murder in this state carries a life sentence. It is 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:50.800 probably society's greatest crime. To label someone the murderer of 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.480 another person is just of the highest seriousness However, to 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:59.040 do so as part of an investigative true crime publication 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:03.480 from a mainstream media company and from a journalist with 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.400 a credible history in these matters is even more serious. 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.719 Episode thirteen had a far greater reach across Australia than 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:17.960 the reporting for coroner's finding. The other inference, clearly is 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:21.760 a podcast such as this would not have approximately three 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.800 hundred and eighty thousand downloads in Australia if it wasn't credible. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:30.880 The judge said when discussing costs that John Perros's case 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.880 was not without merit, and he says that episodes one 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.000 to twelve were where the serious harm to Peros's reputation occurred, 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:42.040 as well as in other reporting. So did Perros sue 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:43.280 on the wrong thing? 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:47.000 Well, the judgment is quite complicated on that issue. But 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.040 the judge didn't just look at episodes one to twelve. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.400 He also looked at the fact that the coroner several 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:57.079 years earlier had found that he'd murdered Shandy, and then 0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.800 all of the associated publications around that. It was on 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.640 the front page of the Courier Mail, there were news reports, 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.800 and so what he found was it was episodes one 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:09.000 to twelve, but also all of that other reporting. So 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.120 I don't think we can say, based on this judgment 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.120 that the result would have been any different if it'd 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.080 sued over episodes one to twelve. We just don't really know, 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.680 but it's certainly not the case that Perils would have 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.880 won based on this judgment if he'd sued over episodes 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:23.360 one to twelve. 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.400 As well. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:30.200 You've already heard that episode thirteen contained Shanna Blackburn's candid 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.120 views about who killed Shandy. Also in episode thirteen, Headley 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:38.319 Thomas discussed with Shanner and Vicki Blackburn, Shandy's mother, evidence 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.080 that the coroner considered which had not been put before 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:45.240 the jury, Evidence like CCTV showing a car similar to 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.360 John's car driving near the scene of Shandy's death that night, 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.480 and phone records showing John Perils's mobile phone, which was 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:55.880 rarely turned off, had been switched off on the nights 0:13:55.960 --> 0:14:00.320 before Shandy's murder. Here's Headley speaking to Vicki black Burn, 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.440 Shandy's mother, in episode thirteen. 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.720 Now, the jurors in John's murder trial didn't hear anything 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:12.000 about John's mobile phone usage and that inactivity, but Vicky 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:14.160 and Shama and the cops knew it. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:20.000 He went for three nights, he did the same thing. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.080 He turned his phone off at the same time. He 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.360 tried that for three nights and got successful. 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.920 Here's what David Helvagian, counsel for John Perros, told the 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:32.760 Queensland Supreme Court about that. 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.080 Vicki Blackburn, the victim's mother, insinuates that he got lucky 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:40.720 that night she was walking home from work the prior 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:44.520 knight she got picked up by her boyfriend. The insinuation 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.880 is he was stalking. Now that evidence wasn't before the jury, 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:53.119 so it's another element that undercuts the acquittal in my submission. 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.680 Episode thirteen also featured someone who listeners to Shandy's story 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.760 would know well for forensic scientists, Kirsty Wright, who examined 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.800 why the DNA samples from Shandy's crime scene and John 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:11.000 Perils's car yielded no useful evidence for John's trial. Kirsty's 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:15.200 work led to stunning revelations in the podcast that Queensland's 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:20.240 entire DNA processing system was deeply flawed. David Helvagian told 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.400 the court it all added up to a strong insinuation 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.480 in the episode that the coroner was right and the 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:27.400 jury was wrong. 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.560 I really want to thank our lawyers who've done a 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:34.920 great job John Paul Cashen who was the senior instructing solicitor, 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:39.960 with our barristers Dward Subtaine and Paul Moreau. They really 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:43.400 got on top of the issues and ensured that no 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:47.440 stone was left unturned in the legal arguments. And Shandy 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:52.960 Blackburn's murder remains unsolved and we can only hope that 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.560 Queensland Police will just double their efforts to try to 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:57.520 find her killer. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.400 Coming up the reddit posts, John Perros relied on We'll 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:24.880 be back after this break. Just listen to this. Her 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.920 ex absolutely did it. That's a Reddit user with the 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.200 handle bard Girl twenty three. Commenting in early twenty twenty two, 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.000 shortly after the public release of episode thirteen of the 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:42.320 Australians podcast Shandy Story, someone called Blonde Arbuckle agrees one 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:47.160 hundred percent he did, and another user, Nora Ldora, says. 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.560 I'm listening now and I feel it so clear that 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.520 it was the X. The crime was so personal and 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:56.280 John was abusive to Shandy. It is crazy that he 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:57.040 was acquitted. 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.480 Those posts are part of the evidence from John Perris's 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.320 lawyers in his claim that Shandy's story caused serious harm 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:09.520 to his reputation. Here's what Justice Applegarth said about those 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:10.400 Reddit posts. 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:15.120 The reddit posts do not suggest that episode thirteen changed 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.159 their minds from having no opinion as to who the 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.720 killer was or believing that someone else was the person responsible, 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.560 to having an absolute or one hundred percent belief that 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:31.360 the plaintiff was responsible. One might reasonably infer that episode 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:36.240 thirteen contributed to each of the three Reddit commentators being 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.760 convinced that the plaintiff was the killer, for example one 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.960 hundred percent he did. However, it is also reasonable to 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.240 infer that those listeners were at least fairly convinced of 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:54.760 the plaintiff's responsibility or strongly believed that he was responsible 0:17:54.920 --> 0:18:01.320 for the killing before they listened to episode thirteen. Also said, 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.640 the proposition that a podcast episode that accuses a person 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.520 of murder and that is heard by a few hundred 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:13.280 thousand listeners does not cause serious harm to reputation is confronting. 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:19.720 The causation issue depends, however, on all the circumstances. For example, 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.920 if the claimant was a notorious murderer at the time 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:28.320 the episode was published, serious harm would not be inferred 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:34.080 some compelling, direct evidence of actual harm to reputation that 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:38.280 amounted to serious harm would be required. 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.160 And the judge said Perros's barristers said in their submissions 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.919 that Peris had a reputation as a friendly, hard working, 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.600 talented boxer, but that they didn't present any evidence or 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:48.639 witnesses on this. 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:54.240 None of the plaintiff's friends, work, colleagues, acquaintances, or family 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:58.639 members have said a single thing about the effect that 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:03.320 episode thirteen had upon their estimation of the plaintiff or 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:07.639 what their estimation of him was immediately before listening to 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:08.760 episode thirteen. 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.080 Justice Applegarth concluded that by the. 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.800 Time episode thirteen was first published, the plaintiff had a 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:20.879 damaged reputation in the relevant sector. Among listeners to the podcast, 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.679 he would have been viewed by listeners to be the 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.760 person who killed Miss Blackburn. They would not simply have 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.800 known him to be the person who a coroner found 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.440 to be Miss Blackburn's killer. They would have formed the view, 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:38.119 based on the evidence and arguments placed before them in 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:42.000 the series, that the coroner's finding was correct. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.760 You can listen to Shandy's story now wherever you get 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:54.560 your podcasts.