Speaker 1: Bobby Capuccio, my brother from another mother. Hi, buddy, welcome
Speaker 1: back to the show. How are you doing?
Speaker 2: Hey, what's going on? Craig, Welcome to the self hell
Speaker 2: band to do it? You know, I always forget to
Speaker 2: welcome you. You're so welcoming to me, but I never
Speaker 2: respond and kind, I never welcome you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course people don't know these these are
Speaker 1: co shares, right. So you put up our chat every
Speaker 1: week on the self help Pantidote.
Speaker 2: Well, not every week, but yeah, I put it up
Speaker 2: on the Self Help Bart periodically periodically, yeah, I mean regularly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, you and I would just have an
Speaker 1: interesting chat off air, and we thought we might because
Speaker 1: you and I do zero planning, which is probably evident
Speaker 1: in the quality of the conversations and the overall you know,
Speaker 1: finished product. But fuck it, let's roll on. We were
Speaker 1: talking welcome, we were talking about we're nothing if not
Speaker 1: not prepared. We're talking about how people seem to be
Speaker 1: less kind than the old days. And I've said to you,
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I grew up in a bubble.
Speaker 1: I did grow up in the country mostly, and most
Speaker 1: people were somewhere between pretty nice and really fucking nice
Speaker 1: most of the time. And then I also said to
Speaker 1: you me walking down the street because I walk a lot,
Speaker 1: and but walking around even suburbia in Melbourne, I'm thinking
Speaker 1: if I wasn't a relatively big, strong, mildly intimidating male,
Speaker 1: I'd be fucking terrified sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I nearly got stabbed on the tram. Yeah I
Speaker 2: know that because the person I was talking to was that, like,
Speaker 2: he said, I'm about to stab you. So I was like, oh, wow, okay, this.
Speaker 1: Is that was when you were in Melbourne last year, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah it was. I was like god, getting stepped and
Speaker 2: it was like it was like a Saturday morning. I
Speaker 2: was like, God, it's too early in the morning for
Speaker 2: a stabbing. I haven't even had like a proper breaky yet.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I was. I was writing on the tram,
Speaker 2: which is usually the best way to take the tram,
Speaker 2: and there's this guy. He's sitting there with no shirt
Speaker 2: and it's it's September, like early September, and he's I
Speaker 2: didn't notice it, but he had all these hospital tags.
Speaker 2: He had just gotten out of hospital. He had just
Speaker 2: been stabbed, which is gonna make a lot of sense
Speaker 2: as the story goes on and it was this older
Speaker 2: and when I say older, like she had to be
Speaker 2: like in her eighties Asian lady. And she's sitting right
Speaker 2: next to him, and he just starts talking to himself
Speaker 2: and screaming to himself. And you know, no judgment, I
Speaker 2: have turettes that could have been me, like you know,
Speaker 2: at any other tram ride. So she kind of gets
Speaker 2: a bit nervous. She gets up and she walks to
Speaker 2: another seat. Well, he gets offended by this not a
Speaker 2: very thick skin bloke for a guy who just got stabbed,
Speaker 2: and he gets up and he walks over and he
Speaker 2: sits down right next to me because she's sitting across
Speaker 2: from me, and he's leaning across and he's like threatening
Speaker 2: her and like yelling at her. And I'm just sitting
Speaker 2: there watching this, going, what what are you gonna do?
Speaker 2: You can you can hit her? She's an old lady.
Speaker 2: So I had mentioned like the the age differential and
Speaker 2: size and other factors involved and just ask them like,
Speaker 2: you know, I just reconsider what you're doing. Well, he
Speaker 2: didn't like that either, so he was he was he
Speaker 2: was not very happy with the passengers on the tram.
Speaker 2: But I don't think this individual. I don't think one
Speaker 2: deeply disturbed individual is representative of society. I think you
Speaker 2: said it the environment. He's like, Oh, I grew up
Speaker 2: in a bubble. Well, I believe you know there there
Speaker 2: are benefits and liabilities to every environment. I think we
Speaker 2: are our collective societal identity is so fractured, and the
Speaker 2: intersection of you and me, I mean, real meaningful connection.
Speaker 2: I think that's decreased a bit, and it's taken a toll.
Speaker 2: I think, not only on the psychology of the individual,
Speaker 2: but just just society's gotten a little bit sick in
Speaker 2: my mind, And yeah, I'm not I don't have credentials
Speaker 2: to make that determination, but from my own observation, yeah,
Speaker 2: when you start to become apathetic, there are a lot
Speaker 2: of different reasons. One you truly just don't care. So yeah,
Speaker 2: someone who does have a lot of first hand experience,
Speaker 2: or did have a lot of first hand experience with
Speaker 2: the extremes of humanity, sadly is the late great doctor
Speaker 2: Victor Frankel. And part of the course work I'm doing,
Speaker 2: I just finished reading Man Search for Meaning, and it
Speaker 2: wasn't the first time, and he talked about how apathy
Speaker 2: was a form of self protection where you've seen so
Speaker 2: much stuff, You've seen so many beatings, you've seen so
Speaker 2: much murder day to day. The only way to protect
Speaker 2: yourself is to become completely apathetic to everything that's going
Speaker 2: on around you. But I don't just see apathy. I
Speaker 2: see extreme hostility. I think people are really struggling, and
Speaker 2: they're struggling at an identity level, and I think there's
Speaker 2: so much lack of predictability, and we've moved away from
Speaker 2: things that are intrinsically predictable. And I think about it
Speaker 2: like you're talking about living in a bubble. That could
Speaker 2: be a good thing or a bad thing. Like if
Speaker 2: you grow up in a small town and everybody in
Speaker 2: that town is just lovely and they're just very open,
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of vulnerability that'll shape you. But
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you can grow up in a
Speaker 2: small town and it's like, I think that's extreme Texas
Speaker 2: change saw massacre. But on the other hand, like if
Speaker 2: you're growing up and you have no exposure to anybody else, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and the messaging that you're getting about the world is
Speaker 2: not very healthy, it's not very expansive. It doesn't cause
Speaker 2: you to be very kind to anyone outside of a
Speaker 2: mayarpic perspective of what a person should be. That's kind
Speaker 2: of that's also problematic, especially when you identify with that
Speaker 2: growing up in a big city. It could be very problematic.
Speaker 2: It could be very beneficial.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are fours and against I was. Firstly, we
Speaker 1: acknowledged before anyone sends an email that the man that
Speaker 1: Bobby was talking to on the train clearly had mental
Speaker 1: health issues. We recognize that, So you don't need to
Speaker 1: tell us that we recognize that, but we can still
Speaker 1: protect the old lady in the middle of that situation.
Speaker 1: So well done.
Speaker 2: You.
Speaker 1: Second thing is so Victor Frankel, just for our listeners
Speaker 1: who don't know, well, you tell everyone who he was,
Speaker 1: and so Second World War, just to give context of
Speaker 1: who this guy is who wrote this book that you
Speaker 1: spoke about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean a lot of people probably have read
Speaker 2: his work or heard the name. But Victor frankl was
Speaker 2: an Austrian psychiatrist, that psychologist, sorry, a neurologist, that was
Speaker 2: taken captive and he spent nearly three years of his
Speaker 2: life in four different concentration camps. He lost his newlywed
Speaker 2: beloved wife, he lost his parents, and he did. What
Speaker 2: he endured and what he experienced, and the conclusions that
Speaker 2: he drew out of that experience is nothing short of remarkable.
Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of us have opinions, but very
Speaker 2: very few of us and this is not a critique like,
Speaker 2: Thank Heavens, few of us have had to suffer through
Speaker 2: and pay the price in advance for the formation of
Speaker 2: those opinions. And then you know, he did obviously survive.
Speaker 2: He wrote a small but powerful book, Man Search for Meaning,
Speaker 2: and he is the founder of logo therapy.
Speaker 1: I would I read that book. You and I probably
Speaker 1: read it about the time stid our journey. I read
Speaker 1: it in my I'm going to say twenties, maybe thirty ish,
Speaker 1: and yeah, like a simple little book but quite profound.
Speaker 1: It's you know, I think the what books do for me,
Speaker 1: and especially biographies or biographically influenced memoirs or you know,
Speaker 1: teaching guiding books, is they give me an opportunity to
Speaker 1: look at something through somebody else's lens. And it like
Speaker 1: what I love is when you get immersed in someone
Speaker 1: else's story and someone else's experience and emotions. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not the same as being them, but it gives
Speaker 1: you a level of other awareness that is really hard
Speaker 1: to get otherwise. And I love that. That's why I
Speaker 1: love Yeah, I love biographies, especially ones that have kind
Speaker 1: of you know, like sharing profound wisdom and insights and experiences,
Speaker 1: be they painful or be they joyful. But yeah, that
Speaker 1: was one of those first books that for me made me,
Speaker 1: made me incredibly grateful for what I didn't have to
Speaker 1: go through and what I haven't experienced, and where I
Speaker 1: didn't live in the time of you know, of the
Speaker 1: human timeline that I was born in. And yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's gratitude is a hard thing to keep a hold of,
Speaker 1: but that certainly was good for me.
Speaker 2: For me, it was you know, I can only respond
Speaker 2: to the world based on my interpretation and my own
Speaker 2: past experiences, and I can imaginedly project myself into other
Speaker 2: people's laws, situations and worldview, but never really experience it.
Speaker 2: And for me, books allow you to expand your mind
Speaker 2: and go anywhere and to a degree of the world
Speaker 2: vicariously through other people. And Victor Frankel went through something
Speaker 2: like extraordinary in the most horrific sense of the word,
Speaker 2: and the conclusions that he drew out of it. I mean,
Speaker 2: we talk about purpose, We talk about meaning and how
Speaker 2: important it is and how much of a well being initiative.
Speaker 2: You know, purpose truly is to allow us to cope
Speaker 2: and develop resilience, but not witness what this guy witnessed.
Speaker 2: Like one out of every twenty eight people that went
Speaker 2: into those camps survived, Like most people. He said, like
Speaker 2: as soon as he got off the train, you know,
Speaker 2: there was someone standing there. And it's really confusing because
Speaker 2: you're getting dragged off this train, like there's dogs barking
Speaker 2: and people screaming at you. And there was a guy
Speaker 2: and who's so casual. This is what he noticed. He
Speaker 2: was resting his elbow on his arm, and he was
Speaker 2: just almost like undiscernibly motioning with his index finger like
Speaker 2: that way that way to the left or to the right,
Speaker 2: and like ninety percent of the time I think it
Speaker 2: was to the right he was motioning. And that was.
Speaker 3: Immediate execution because people were too that they were too
Speaker 3: weary from the trip for whatever reason, too old, too
Speaker 3: young to be of any use in the work camps.
Speaker 2: And ten percent of the time he just you know,
Speaker 2: like flicked it the other way, and you went into
Speaker 2: the work camp, and what happened that like that was
Speaker 2: not a lucky break by any measure of the word.
Speaker 2: And he he witnessed such extremes of humanity and it
Speaker 2: was the people that and there's so much more to this,
Speaker 2: but what he attributed to his survival on other people's
Speaker 2: survival is the depth of the meaning of their situation,
Speaker 2: like what does this mean? And what is my reason
Speaker 2: to survive? What was interesting is he said, like as
Speaker 2: a physician. Once they found out that he was a
Speaker 2: physician in the camp, anyone who was like really sick
Speaker 2: will go ten to those people and he would have
Speaker 2: conversations and he could almost tell someone who was really
Speaker 2: not doing well, and they were not long for the
Speaker 2: world because within the conversation it was revealed that they
Speaker 2: had nothing left to expect from life, where the people
Speaker 2: that persevered had the opposite perspective. They believed that even
Speaker 2: in the midst of the most unimaginably cruel circumstances, life
Speaker 2: was demanding something from them. Life was not accountable to them.
Speaker 2: They were still accountable to life. And whether that was
Speaker 2: in Victor Frankel's case, they burned his manuscripts. He had
Speaker 2: it in his head he wanted to reproduce his manuscripts,
Speaker 2: to bring something out into the world that would serve humanity.
Speaker 2: He wondered he would see on these more he would
Speaker 2: just see his wife's face and her smile, and he
Speaker 2: wanted to get back to her. For other people who's
Speaker 2: remembering the names and faces of the captors, yea, to
Speaker 2: sort of they survived, they could take part in bringing
Speaker 2: them to justice. And it was this deep rooted purpose
Speaker 2: that without that you won't survive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I think, you know, finding finding a way
Speaker 1: in the middle of what seems to be like insurmountable,
Speaker 1: you know, odds or pain or obstacles, And I wonder
Speaker 1: what makes you know, like sometimes even in the self
Speaker 1: help personal development space that you and I kind of
Speaker 1: you know, professional development, personal development, you and I kind
Speaker 1: of live professionally. But the rah rah b all you
Speaker 1: can be try harder, work through adversity, you know, like
Speaker 1: it's it's quite limited in its application, and you know,
Speaker 1: in the middle of extreme whatever. I wonder how much
Speaker 1: of that is just I don't know, personality, How much
Speaker 1: of that is genetic, how much of that is you know,
Speaker 1: the neurochemistry, you know, or the biochemistry of the brain
Speaker 1: how much of that is I don't know, some spiritual
Speaker 1: component faith, hope, you know. I wonder what makes the difference.
Speaker 1: And because some of the you know, some of the
Speaker 1: what you would think would be the toughest people whatever
Speaker 1: that means, can capitulate quickly and other people just for
Speaker 1: whatever reason just find a way.
Speaker 2: Well, you hear that all the time, right, Like the
Speaker 2: people who you think would like rock up and oh wow,
Speaker 2: look at this individual. Yeah, they're going to do really
Speaker 2: well in whatever the challenging of circumstances, and they don't.
Speaker 2: And then you look at someone's completely unassuming in every
Speaker 2: respect of the world. You just don't know. And I
Speaker 2: think it's a combination of all things. But I think
Speaker 2: it's almost like to me going back to certainty. And
Speaker 2: I know I bring this up all the time. Certainty
Speaker 2: scares the shit out of me. And people who are
Speaker 2: so certain in their worldview in my mind what I'm witnessing,
Speaker 2: they're so easily manipulated.
Speaker 1: First of all, do you mean the idea of certainty,
Speaker 1: like the idea that people are absolutely certain about things
Speaker 1: that Okay.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I know what you're about, I
Speaker 2: know what I'm about, I know what I would do
Speaker 2: in any given set of circumstances. Those people over there,
Speaker 2: they're really good. Those people over there, they're bad. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: we don't know shit about even se if you really
Speaker 2: think about like, well, that's just me, that's not the
Speaker 2: person I am. I know myself, do you really like
Speaker 2: if you really get down to it, like you really
Speaker 2: half of us probably more don't really understand ourselves an
Speaker 2: intimate level, but you understand somebody else in its entirety,
Speaker 2: and you can create this global generalization. But think about
Speaker 2: somebody like that, like, think about how he wound up
Speaker 2: in a concentration camp in the first place. It's that,
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot more to it, but there's
Speaker 2: that perspective being leveraged with a false narrative, and people
Speaker 2: just I mean, just get on board. And god, what's
Speaker 2: interesting you're talking about? You don't know people. You cannot
Speaker 2: look at someone and say, well that person. Do you
Speaker 2: remember in the book where he was talking about the
Speaker 2: commander of one of the camps, So he was really sick,
Speaker 2: and he was tending to other people who were so
Speaker 2: sick and in so much pain. They probably weren't going
Speaker 2: to make it. They weren't giving them any medicines, barely
Speaker 2: any medicine to go around. And then but medicine kept
Speaker 2: showing up, and they had like barely enough, and kept
Speaker 2: showing up and had barely enough. And the whole time
Speaker 2: it was the commander of the concentration camp, the top
Speaker 2: guy in charge, who was going into town and spending
Speaker 2: what Victor Frankel estimated was a large sum of his
Speaker 2: own money secretly bringing medicine for these prisoners back into
Speaker 2: the camp. So when when Germany fell and the Allies
Speaker 2: had taken over these camps and liberated them, they were
Speaker 2: looking for this commander and the prisoners were protecting this
Speaker 2: commander and said, well, don't he's like, don't get confused.
Speaker 2: He wasn't trying to say, well, this commander was really
Speaker 2: secretly a kind hearted person. No, he was a Nazi
Speaker 2: commander who oversaw a concentration camp. Wasn't a really kind guy.
Speaker 2: But yet in the midst of that, you would never
Speaker 2: expect that like anonymity and kindness. Yet you would have
Speaker 2: fellow prisoners in the camp. But before the war were
Speaker 2: probably normal people going out, sitting at cafes. Someone you
Speaker 2: would talk to in the morning, and he said that
Speaker 2: they were more brutal. Prisoners that were put in position
Speaker 2: of authority were more brutal to other prisoners than any
Speaker 2: guard could have been. It's like, do you really know people?
Speaker 2: Can you really make determinations? I think it's scary because
Speaker 2: the more we distance from each other and the more
Speaker 2: we resort to this tribalism, the more we just have
Speaker 2: an echo chamber and certainty. Certainty can be leveraged to
Speaker 2: shocking extents. So for me, that's a characteristic in someone
Speaker 2: and myself that terrifies me.
Speaker 1: I feel like the need that people have to be
Speaker 1: certain arises from the terror that people have to be uncertain,
Speaker 1: Like people do not like not knowing. And I actually
Speaker 1: think that when you lean into the truth, like the
Speaker 1: truth is, we don't know a lot of things. We
Speaker 1: probably don't know most things. And I feel like also
Speaker 1: because quite often our identity, as I've said many times,
Speaker 1: our identity is intertwined with what we think, with our belief,
Speaker 1: with our certainty that despite the fact that there's four
Speaker 1: thousand religions, twelve major religions, my religion is the one,
Speaker 1: and my religion and my religion alone has got a
Speaker 1: unique hotline to the divine and everyone else is going
Speaker 1: hell where not and like to be able to go, look,
Speaker 1: this is what I think about the god thing, this
Speaker 1: is what I believe, well, this is what I believe
Speaker 1: to be the best diet, or this is what I
Speaker 1: believe to be the best w whatever. Nonetheless, that's just
Speaker 1: my belief. I've been wrong many times in my life, hundreds,
Speaker 1: maybe thousands of times I've been wrong. So the chance
Speaker 1: that I'm absolutely right about this thing for which I
Speaker 1: have no categoric evidence is zero. So to be able
Speaker 1: to go look you think, AI think, b that's cool.
Speaker 1: I don't need to convince you. You don't need to
Speaker 1: convince me. And also, neither do we have to hate
Speaker 1: each other because we don't align on what is or
Speaker 1: we don't align on a certain opinion on ideology or
Speaker 1: philosophy or theology. And more importantly, we can actually love
Speaker 1: each other. We can actually be kind. Obviously there are
Speaker 1: some exceptions to this about hate and violence and extremism,
Speaker 1: of course, but in general terms, with most of the
Speaker 1: things that most people get hysterical about online, it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know you think Donald Trump's the devil. I don't,
Speaker 1: or I do, and you don't or whatever. It's like,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what we by the way, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what you think. And I think it's not going
Speaker 1: to change anything. All we're doing is creating angst and
Speaker 1: separation and we're getting online and we're you know, it's like,
Speaker 1: it's just to me most of it. I think there's
Speaker 1: a time for pushback, and there's a time, but I
Speaker 1: think most of the disagreement and the anger and the
Speaker 1: hate and the separation, it's so fucking toxic and unhealthy
Speaker 1: and pointlessly devastating.
Speaker 2: So my wife is a little bit ill right now.
Speaker 2: She's fine, but we you know, we went to hospital
Speaker 2: yesterday and they did a bunch of tests and x
Speaker 2: rays and you know, they gave her meds because it's
Speaker 2: great if my wife had a nail through her head,
Speaker 2: like she would just like get a and go to
Speaker 2: work for her to go, oh, I think this is serious.
Speaker 2: It's serious. So we went to the hospital and when
Speaker 2: they gave her the meds, they were talking about, Okay,
Speaker 2: well you want to take this this pill in the
Speaker 2: morning and this pill at night, but don't take this
Speaker 2: pill at night because if you take this pill at night,
Speaker 2: you're not gonna sleep well, and that's gonna make you
Speaker 2: a lot worse. And it's almost like we've been prescribed
Speaker 2: all these pills and it's like, okay, if you if
Speaker 2: you take this in the morning, it's gonna make you
Speaker 2: a lot better. If you take this pill in the morning,
Speaker 2: it's gonna make you a lot worse. And we just
Speaker 2: keep popping the pill that's gonna make us worse. First
Speaker 2: thing in the morning we wake up and we keep
Speaker 2: taking it and taking It's like, I feel so horrible,
Speaker 2: and then what do you do. I'm gonna take more
Speaker 2: of this because if you look at it like like
Speaker 2: the the one, the biochemistry and the psychology of kindness,
Speaker 2: all things being equal, will mitigate the levels of stress
Speaker 2: you're feeling. Yeah, it will. It will elevate your sense
Speaker 2: of connection, it will elevate your sense of safety, it
Speaker 2: will it will increase everything that you want and decrease
Speaker 2: everything that you don't want. Even if it doesn't change
Speaker 2: the world around you, it'll change the world within you
Speaker 2: and the people who are their sipping into that kindness.
Speaker 2: But we don't do that right instead of instead of
Speaker 2: going and going, oh, well, look at this person, what
Speaker 2: are they going through? What it's what is it like
Speaker 2: to be them? Yeah, and and really exploring that with care.
Speaker 2: It's like, are they like me? The fact that that
Speaker 2: there's a side for people living in the same country
Speaker 2: is ridiculous. It's like, and here in this country, God,
Speaker 2: I avoid politics. But what's funny is on both quote
Speaker 2: unquote sides, they flip on their core values depending on
Speaker 2: who said what. Yes, It's like one side is like, listen,
Speaker 2: we believe the color blue is the most important thing
Speaker 2: that we have here. And then like the other side,
Speaker 2: we'll say, oh yeah, we like blue. Oh no, we
Speaker 2: hate blue. We're all about green here. We hate it,
Speaker 2: but we hate those blue people.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: And it's like you just based your entire identity on
Speaker 2: a belief system that you abandon because your side said
Speaker 2: something different or another side said something that you have
Speaker 2: to now position against. What are we doing where if
Speaker 2: we would just see each other and talk to people
Speaker 2: and be interested, yes, you wouldn't be suffering. But no,
Speaker 2: we jump on threads and we make the most horrible comments,
Speaker 2: and it's like we're so certain and we're not curious
Speaker 2: at all about other people, and we just keep taking
Speaker 2: that same pill, and we wonder why it hurts so bad.
Speaker 1: The other night I was doing my this is off
Speaker 1: the back of that, I was doing my group, my
Speaker 1: mentoring group, and we're talking about it's gonna same, unrelated
Speaker 1: but at the time.
Speaker 4: So Wake four, which it was, was you and your body, right,
Speaker 4: so it's just week three as you in your mind
Speaker 4: and every week as you and something, You and your career, you.
Speaker 1: And your future, you know, you and your potential. Anyway,
Speaker 1: we're talking about the body and you know, very broad,
Speaker 1: kind of just broad brushstrokes around, like what are the
Speaker 1: big you know, what are the big ticket items. And
Speaker 1: obviously we talk about sleep, We talk about excidse, we
Speaker 1: talk about food, talk about managing stress, talk about environment,
Speaker 1: talk about you know, the impact of work on your physical, mental,
Speaker 1: and emotional health. Blah blah blah. And then we talk
Speaker 1: about love and being loved, and we talk about the
Speaker 1: value of connection and somebody being kind and somebody caring
Speaker 1: and not being isolated, not feeling you know, alone, and
Speaker 1: the biological and biochemical benefits you know, oxytocin and dopamine
Speaker 1: and serotonin and dolphins and vasopress and all of these
Speaker 1: other awesome things that happen that make us feel amazing, right,
Speaker 1: and they happen in the proximity of other humans. It's
Speaker 1: like being around being around love, being around kindness, being
Speaker 1: around care, being around somebody who values you, you know,
Speaker 1: being around somebody who's going to give you a hug
Speaker 1: or a hand on the shoulder or a you know,
Speaker 1: this is literally good for our not just of course
Speaker 1: it's good for your mental health. But people don't understand.
Speaker 1: It affects your immune system, it affects your cellular health,
Speaker 1: It affects your nervous system, it affects fucking it affects
Speaker 1: your longevity. Like you think about if somebody has ticked
Speaker 1: all the other boxes hypothetically, so food, exercise, lifestyle, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, booze, cigarettes, whatever, and they're doing all the
Speaker 1: things right, but they're living at home alone. They're isolated.
Speaker 1: Nobody rings them, nobody reaches out to them, nobody's kind
Speaker 1: to them, or nobody takes an interest in them. That's
Speaker 1: probably almost the biggest detriment they could have to their
Speaker 1: physical health. Right. And I feel like at the moment,
Speaker 1: we're just throwing so much hate and heat. Not you
Speaker 1: and me, but just so much hate and heat as
Speaker 1: a group of humans. But what fucking point.
Speaker 2: Like, isn't that interesting? That the thing if we did
Speaker 2: like just this like root cause analysis, and we just
Speaker 2: pursued the quest of why as deep as we can
Speaker 2: go with somebody at the end of it, what most
Speaker 2: people want, what all of us want, is to be
Speaker 2: loved and to love somebody else. And I think so
Speaker 2: much of the vitriol that we have, and so much
Speaker 2: of what seems like people ah, that person's a narcissist.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe they just feel really unloved and disconnected from love.
Speaker 2: And then you go out and you engage in things
Speaker 2: that push you further away from it. It's a thing
Speaker 2: we don't even talk about. Like could you imagine like
Speaker 2: somebody rocks up to the office on a Monday morning
Speaker 2: and starts walking around talking about love in the office
Speaker 2: all day, Like you're gonna land yourself in hr people
Speaker 2: are gonna feel very uncomfortable round here. Meanwhile, Like, like
Speaker 2: any time I have been in a position and we
Speaker 2: discussed this on a podcast, like sometimes there was there
Speaker 2: needed to be more of an internal compass and frame
Speaker 2: of reference where I needed to be the source of
Speaker 2: what I wanted more than being attached to it. Externally,
Speaker 2: But any any team I've been on where you look back,
Speaker 2: it's like, wow, we did some great things. Not only
Speaker 2: did we do some great things and were accomplish things
Speaker 2: that were worth achieving, but the experience, yeah, was so
Speaker 2: exhilarating and energizing, not in spite of but sometimes because
Speaker 2: of the effort and the challenges that came with it.
Speaker 2: At the root of it was love. We loved what
Speaker 2: we were doing, and we loved one another, and we weren't
Speaker 2: too uncomfortable to express that. It's almost like it, oh,
Speaker 2: we don't want to talk about love because you know
Speaker 2: we're serious in this business. We're serious on this team.
Speaker 1: You can't do that. It's isn't it Isn't it silly?
Speaker 1: Like just how we've created these cultures and environments, and
Speaker 1: of course you know we've got to it's got to
Speaker 1: be boundaries and all of that. I get it, But
Speaker 1: it's like when you listen to people talk. So many
Speaker 1: people talk like every second person at their work allegedly
Speaker 1: is a narcissist. Everyone my boss is a narcissist, a manager,
Speaker 1: socio like really everyone. I just feel like these labels
Speaker 1: get handed out to anyone who doesn't agree with you,
Speaker 1: like anyone who's anyone who ruffles your feathers is a
Speaker 1: psychopath or a sociopath, or a narcissist, or an ego
Speaker 1: maniac or a come on, dude.
Speaker 2: When you factor in statistically how many people actually fall
Speaker 2: into having an antisocial personality disorder if you are surrounded
Speaker 2: constantly by narcissists and sociopaths, Yeah, either you might be
Speaker 2: part of the problem or you have run into an
Speaker 2: extraordinary stroke of bad luck. I mean, just the probability
Speaker 2: that's that's that's insane. Like the opposite of that would
Speaker 2: be I bought five lottery tickets this week, one every
Speaker 2: single time. Like on the opposite end of that, that's
Speaker 2: the type of of probability you're dealing with. Everyone you
Speaker 2: run into that doesn't happen to see the world the
Speaker 2: way you see it. Something's fundamentally wrong with them, or
Speaker 2: they're a narcissist. I you know, I think maybe sometimes
Speaker 2: it's it's very hard to connect to these expressions and
Speaker 2: the manifestation of these sentiments and behaviors, you know, especially
Speaker 2: when you get there's there's so much risk there, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about like love at the office.
Speaker 2: And you know, I would never I would never say
Speaker 2: oh at the office, like I love you again, because
Speaker 2: I've been told to stop doing that. But but but
Speaker 2: but but I'm reception. But I but I love you.
Speaker 2: Why Why can't I Why can't I say that? Well?
Speaker 2: You can, but I'm your boss and you're supposed to
Speaker 2: be in the middle of a presentation and the entire
Speaker 2: board is waiting, and you're making us all very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and please don't follow me into the lady's
Speaker 1: room again.
Speaker 2: Hey, hey, over the line, over the line. So I
Speaker 2: think sometimes it's sometimes it's easier to kind of frame it.
Speaker 2: And and I'll bring out I'll bring Albert Bandura into this,
Speaker 2: because what he was amazing at doing was getting.
Speaker 1: Just who is he before you tell us like, who
Speaker 1: is he?
Speaker 2: Oh, he's He's one of the most celebrated figures in psychology.
Speaker 2: And he is the founder was he's no longer with us.
Speaker 2: He was the founder of social cognitive theory and one
Speaker 2: of the most widely quoted experts in his field bar none.
Speaker 2: And what he was able to do is get people
Speaker 2: to engage in behaviors that they never thought in a
Speaker 2: million years they would engage in Like if I have
Speaker 2: a debilitating snake phobia so bad that I don't even
Speaker 2: have to see a snake. All I have to do
Speaker 2: is think about a snake, and I lose the ability
Speaker 2: to function in the outside world. That's the extent of
Speaker 2: my phobia. And I would go see you know, a
Speaker 2: but Bendura like with within a certain amount of time,
Speaker 2: he'd have me like wrapped in a snake, like holding
Speaker 2: onto a snake. So engaging in those behaviors and there's
Speaker 2: certain steps I think that kind of guide us toward
Speaker 2: because if we if we don't feel particularly kind because
Speaker 2: we hate everybody and everywhere we look, people irritate us.
Speaker 2: And don't get me wrong, that's me like three out
Speaker 2: of seven days in the week, probably four.
Speaker 1: So that's not true. You know, that's not true.
Speaker 2: I sometimes I'm just somebody asked me on another show.
Speaker 2: They're like, what do you love and hate the most? Like,
Speaker 2: what do you love the most? What do you hate
Speaker 2: the most?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like people.
Speaker 2: So sometimes when you don't feel that way, but if
Speaker 2: you're constantly engaging in acts of kindness, eventually you're gonna
Speaker 2: see yourself as a kind person, especially since if you're
Speaker 2: engaging in, like deliberate, intentional acts of kindness, you're gonna
Speaker 2: get a response that rewards that, and in some cases immediately,
Speaker 2: not from everybody. Sometimes you'll lead with kindness and you'll
Speaker 2: get a response that actually lowers your faith in humanity.
Speaker 2: But more often than not, you're going to start to
Speaker 2: get these interactions and these connections that never would have
Speaker 2: taken place if you didn't initiate it. I think a
Speaker 2: place to start if someone's like, I'm so stressed out,
Speaker 2: I feel so overwhelmed, Like what do I do well?
Speaker 2: The connection with other people and a sense of purpose
Speaker 2: is a really good place to start for the vast
Speaker 2: majority of us. And almost imagine, don't don't go out
Speaker 2: and do anything, but just imagine what would I like,
Speaker 2: not life to be like, but what would I want
Speaker 2: life to feel like? What would be that experience? What
Speaker 2: would be the emotions the feelings that I get to
Speaker 2: engage in most of the time, like more often than not.
Speaker 2: And I think the next step would be, you know,
Speaker 2: if I were going to live out a value that
Speaker 2: I have a great place to go. If you're not
Speaker 2: sure what your values are? Is v I a values
Speaker 2: in action? So v I a character dot org. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that's that's the right website. And you
Speaker 2: go through and it's a it's it's a survey by
Speaker 2: doctor Morton Seligman, and it'll kind of help you navigate
Speaker 2: through what your highest values are. There's a free version
Speaker 2: of the survey that's extremely useful on that site. And
Speaker 2: almost imagine if I were to express my highest value generously,
Speaker 2: whether it's level of learning, whether it's kindness or honesty,
Speaker 2: and how would I use that to connect with people,
Speaker 2: try to understand people? Why would I do that? What
Speaker 2: might be a couple of reasons? You know, what, what
Speaker 2: might what might happen to my world view? In what
Speaker 2: ways might I grow and be different from from the
Speaker 2: way I am today in a way that inspires me?
Speaker 2: So that's verbal persuasion. Verbal persuasion is not like when
Speaker 2: someone else persuades you. It's when you present questions to yourself.
Speaker 2: A questions are presented to you that causes you engage
Speaker 2: in the thought process where you go through your own
Speaker 2: autonomous persuasion. The next is who do I know? Like,
Speaker 2: who do I know that exhibits these traits that values
Speaker 2: these things? What's their experience of life, What can I
Speaker 2: model and what might be a great way to test
Speaker 2: this in the world, just in a very small way,
Speaker 2: like starting tomorrow and just there was an exercise in
Speaker 2: my coaching sessions where the instructor asked us to identify
Speaker 2: one being skill. A being skill is not something you're doing,
Speaker 2: it's who you're being. It could be zested, it could
Speaker 2: be playfulness, it could be I'm gonna show up, and curiosity.
Speaker 2: And it created such a compass and a focal point.
Speaker 2: But if you're thinking single mindedly about what you're curious about,
Speaker 2: you're simultaneously not thinking about all the things you're irritated about,
Speaker 2: or oh my god, do I agree with something that
Speaker 2: was said to me at breakfast? What value could you
Speaker 2: lead within the day? And you're gonna fall off and
Speaker 2: you're gonna catch yourself not doing it, and that's fine,
Speaker 2: Just no judgment, just bring yourself back. That kind of
Speaker 2: gives you a value based compass to guide you lead
Speaker 2: you the day, mitigate all of the other things that
Speaker 2: stress you out and piss you off, and connect you
Speaker 2: to other people, which, as you mentioned, has incredible biochemical
Speaker 2: consequences for you and that other person. So that might
Speaker 2: be a kind of cool process someone can utilize.
Speaker 1: You know, it's cool. It's www, v I a character,
Speaker 1: so one kind of word, v I a character dot org.
Speaker 1: So I get that. I'm having a look at it
Speaker 1: right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well I'm Bobby. And what I love about like when
Speaker 1: you have clarity around what your values are or what
Speaker 1: matters most to you, or it it gives you, It
Speaker 1: gives you. It then gives you clarity around decision making,
Speaker 1: opportunity taking or creating. So I got offered yesterday. In fact,
Speaker 1: what would we say anyway a product to advertise on
Speaker 1: the show. I'll tell you later. I don't want to
Speaker 1: get any money in Trouble yesterday, and I had to
Speaker 1: say no because it doesn't I just don't believe in
Speaker 1: this particular product. I don't even like this product. In fact,
Speaker 1: I dislike this product. And it's you know, it's not easy,
Speaker 1: but it's clear. It's like, oh, we're going to give
Speaker 1: you this much and you're going to sell this on
Speaker 1: the show. I'm like, yeah, I don't even need to
Speaker 1: think about it. Thank you for the opportunity. And I
Speaker 1: know it seems like it fits and you can maybe
Speaker 1: guess what it is, but I know that it kind
Speaker 1: of seems like it lives in the Craig Harper health
Speaker 1: wellness space, but I can't, you know, And I think
Speaker 1: the beauty of that is when you have when you
Speaker 1: know what matters to you, or what you stand for
Speaker 1: or what your values are, then you know, it's almost
Speaker 1: like some opportunities are not opportunities. They're almost a test
Speaker 1: of your character around those values. You know, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is no, this is not an opportunity. This is
Speaker 1: a test for you. And I've been tested pretty regularly
Speaker 1: in that space, and it's it's really and by the way,
Speaker 1: I've not always passed with flying colors. I've failed many times,
Speaker 1: of course. But you know, especially when there's a financial
Speaker 1: incentive to do something that doesn't align with your values,
Speaker 1: that's kind of where the rubber hits the road.
Speaker 2: I think it does give you a sense a clutter.
Speaker 2: I mean, if there was one plate, I think what
Speaker 2: constantly comes up for me is this thing about values
Speaker 2: and thing about meaning as a as a guide. It's
Speaker 2: not like, oh, I think this is really important. No,
Speaker 2: I lean in behaviorally to this. Know this is this
Speaker 2: creates the process by which I live because because nothing else.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've got a lot of superstitions in this society,
Speaker 2: and a lot of it, a lot of it makes sense,
Speaker 2: Like if you break down, well why do you feel
Speaker 2: the way you feel or why do you say that,
Speaker 2: you get thoughtful and intelligent responses. But like culture, and
Speaker 2: I'm doing work inside my organization with other organizations and
Speaker 2: it's like, well, what is culture? We define it? But
Speaker 2: whatever your culture is, it shows it is reflected by
Speaker 2: and defined by the behaviors that you engage in. That's
Speaker 2: the only thing that produces anything. I mean we're talking about, Well,
Speaker 2: it's the commitments we have. You know, commitment doesn't do anything.
Speaker 2: I mean, you could get you could get a bunch
Speaker 2: of blokes on a rugby pitch who who have belief
Speaker 2: in their abilities and who are one hundred percent committed
Speaker 2: to winning matches until they actually start doing something like
Speaker 2: no points are going to be scored like that. And
Speaker 2: when you know what your values are, I think it
Speaker 2: kind of it kind of guides those behaviors in sequence
Speaker 2: to bring you in a dielection that's that's aligned with
Speaker 2: who you want to be. And of course, like you said,
Speaker 2: we all fall short most of the time. Or a
Speaker 2: lot of the time. But like when you when you
Speaker 2: fall off, what's the difference between complete frustration and catastrophizing
Speaker 2: and just getting back on track. I think it's that clarity, like, oh,
Speaker 2: I wanted to engage like this, but I did this instead.
Speaker 2: Oh that's not great. Let me get back on track.
Speaker 2: I can only get back on track if I know,
Speaker 2: if I can concern where the track is.
Speaker 1: And also that's the that's the healthy line or the
Speaker 1: healthy difference between you know, self awareness and self loathing.
Speaker 1: You know, that's the not the ar I'm a fucking idiot.
Speaker 1: I always do this. I'm like, I'm so out of alignment.
Speaker 1: I'm you know, it's like, well maybe maybe not, but
Speaker 1: by the way, you know, let's acknowledge it. What did
Speaker 1: you do? What should have you done? Okay, you can't
Speaker 1: undo that now, but what you can do is you
Speaker 1: can do better, think better, choose better. So let's acknowledge
Speaker 1: what we did. That's not great, but let's not backstroke
Speaker 1: in that for the next fucking year in emotional quicksand
Speaker 1: let's acknowledge what we need to do, and let's move
Speaker 1: into that. Let's lean into that, and.
Speaker 2: That intrinsic clarity is power. I think it also mitigates
Speaker 2: a lot of the things that are dividing us in
Speaker 2: our society where everything's so uncertain. Yeah, intentionally identifying something
Speaker 2: for yourself and going this, I'm certain in a world
Speaker 2: that's chaotic and constantly changing for now, I declare this
Speaker 2: as unchangeable within me and the way I'm going to engage.
Speaker 2: I think that builds a lot of resilience, or it
Speaker 2: gives us tools to be more resilient.
Speaker 1: And I think the beauty of identifying, like what matters
Speaker 1: to you and your values and your beliefs, and is
Speaker 1: it you know you're in charge of That doesn't mean
Speaker 1: you can You're never going to be wrong. But yeah,
Speaker 1: The Self Help Project is Bobby's podcast. The Youth Project
Speaker 1: is my podcast.
Speaker 2: Well, it's the antidote. You have a project, I have
Speaker 2: an antidote.
Speaker 1: What did I say? Did I say?
Speaker 2: With self? The self help Project?
Speaker 1: Sorry, dude, why did I even say that? The self
Speaker 1: help antidote? Apology?
Speaker 2: Well, you do about twelve podcasts you and I.
Speaker 1: I think I even helped you name that. I should
Speaker 1: probably remember it.
Speaker 2: You did help me name it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, tell people how to connect with you?
Speaker 2: Buddy, Yeah, your self help antidote not a project, but
Speaker 2: I mean we might do a project. I don't know anyway,
Speaker 2: So yeah, self help antidote dot com, Robertobuccio dot com,
Speaker 2: come see me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1: Thanks mate, Thank you, Craig so you. We'll say goodbye here,
Speaker 1: but thanks again, buddy.
Speaker 2: Thanks everyone,