1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: This episode of Headgame was recorded on gadigal Land. This 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: episode contains discussions of domestic violence. If this raises any 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: issues for you, support is available through the links and 4 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: phone numbers in the show notes. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 2: It's August two thousand and six. On a sunny, yet 6 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 2: chilly Friday morning. Police officers knock on the door of 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: a modest, nondescript home in Narra. Inside, Claire mccauliffe is 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: cleaning the house and looking after the youngest of her children. 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 2: As she opens the door, officers tell her that she 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 2: and her kids are being evicted from her home. They 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: have twelve days to pack up and leave. Once. The 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: news is shocking to Claire, it also fills her with excitement. 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 2: She's been looking for a way to escape the brutal 14 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: dooms they call her husband forced her into more than 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: a decade earlier. Knowing this was her chance at freedom, 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: she grills the officers about what she should do next. 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: After a lifetime largely cut off from the outside world, 18 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: Claire and her children would now have to navigate a 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: culture and society they'd never seen before. I'm at Middleton 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: and this is head Game today, Claire mccauliffe on surviving 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 2: life inside two cults, and how asking questions became her 22 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: ultimate undoing. Now, Claire, you've got a fascinating story here 23 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 2: and fascinated how you got there. But before we get 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: into how you got there, firstly, how are you? And 25 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 2: the second question is were you born into the religious 26 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: side of things or did it come later on in life? 27 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I'm very glad to be here. Thank you 28 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 3: for having me. I am very well, thank you. In 29 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 3: answer to your second question, no, I wasn't. Actually, I 30 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 3: was born a normal Catholic and then when I was 31 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 3: about four and a half years old, my mum returned 32 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 3: to traditional Catholicism, which was and still is a breakaway 33 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 3: sect from the Catholic Church. So they're their own little 34 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 3: you know. They follow the rules or most of the 35 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: rules of the Catholic Church, but then there's some that 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 3: they differ on and that has caused them to be 37 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 3: separated from the Catholic Church. 38 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: I was up a Catholic as well, so I understand 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: that side of things. So would you say that she 40 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: just went a bit deeper into religion. 41 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 3: Well, if we understand the history of the Catholic Church, 42 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: we had the Second Vatican Council from nineteen sixty two 43 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: to nineteen sixty five, where Pope John the twenty third 44 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 3: wanted to bring a breath of fresh air into the 45 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: church and modernize it a little bit, and there was 46 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 3: a strong, a small but strong vocal crowd that did 47 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 3: not like the changes, and so they reverted back to 48 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 3: the way the Catholic Church had operated and said the 49 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 3: Mass in Latin before nineteen sixty two. So although I 50 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: was born into like the updated modern Catholic Church, it 51 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 3: my mum had reverted back to pre nineteen sixty two. 52 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: Wow. So how would you differentiate Catholics and Christians before 53 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: we get into your story. 54 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: Well, Christianity is a big umbrella that also has Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, 55 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 3: Uniting Church, Methodists, Lutheran, whoever you Evangelical, Christian, Revival, Christian. 56 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 3: So you know, you have that one umbrella that is Christian, 57 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: and then you've got all your little groups sitting underneath it, 58 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 3: and then each one is slightly different in terms of 59 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 3: you know, they've chosen to believe certain things and discard 60 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: other things. It's not just in belief, it could be 61 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 3: in Rich Woolen in practice as well. 62 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 2: When you were growing up, What was the norm in 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 2: your household? How did it feel? And just give us 64 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: to give us a small indication of your upbringing. 65 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 3: Well, when I was about six, my parents bought a 66 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 3: twenty eighth block of land outside of Ballarat and we 67 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: had a little hobby farm there. So we had cows, goats, 68 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: sheet chickens, pigs and the whole routine would start quite early, 69 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 3: because you know, when you do have a farm, there 70 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 3: is never there is never a sleep in. And then 71 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: we lived half an hour a balerrat. Yes, that's right, 72 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 3: early warnings like everything is dominated by milking the cows 73 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 3: and the goats and feeding the rest of the animals, 74 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 3: and that's twice a day, so there is no like, 75 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: there's no rest for the wicked in a certain term. 76 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 3: And so we lived half an hour out of Ballarat. 77 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 3: And then my mother decided that she would homeschool us 78 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: because she believed that that was a better way of 79 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 3: educating us without having any outside influences. And she was 80 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 3: able to pretty successfully do that because we had no 81 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 3: near neighbors. We were homeschooled. We didn't have a television. 82 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 3: I am the eldest of nine children, so we only 83 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: had each other to play with. The day was dominated 84 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 3: by getting up early and attending to the animals. Then 85 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 3: Mum believed that we always said prayers better on an 86 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 3: empty stomach, so we needed to say our morning prayers 87 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: and the Rosary before breakfast. Then we had breakfast, Then 88 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:44,719 Speaker 3: it was school time, and then you know, lunch, lunch, break, 89 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,239 Speaker 3: afternoon of schooling, and then in the afternoon you're back again, 90 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 3: you know, milking the cows and the goats and feeding 91 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 3: the rest of the animals. And like, many people might 92 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 3: see that as being a very restrictive and insular upbringing, 93 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 3: and it was. However, once you tear all the threads 94 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 3: apart as you grow older, you also understand that there 95 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 3: were very many skills that one learned there. You know, 96 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 3: you learned to be reliant, you learn to be resilient, 97 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: you learn to be creative because when you're out creative 98 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 3: in a few ways, you know, in terms of like 99 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 3: if something goes wrong on the farm, you know, you've 100 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 3: got to figure out a way to fix it because 101 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 3: you're not in town and you're not close to town, and 102 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 3: you know, creative For us, it was creative in our play. 103 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 3: So it was a very innocent upbringing, and I think 104 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 3: a very good one because we did not have any technology, 105 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 3: and so, you know, and we learned how to bake, 106 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 3: cook clean for the girls. We all learned to sew, embroider, patchwork, 107 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 3: make butter, make bread, and when you have a pandemic 108 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 3: like COVID, those kinds of skills come in real handy. 109 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: Claire, what you spoke about, I suppose that that was normal, 110 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,119 Speaker 2: you know, back in that era. You know, it wasn't 111 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: seen as something out of the norm, you know, to 112 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: be sort of homeschooled, to be raised on a farm, 113 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: to be raised in large families, especially a Catholic family. 114 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: Catholic families are normally quite large, so nothing was out 115 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: of the norm. That was completely normal for you. And 116 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: you said you were one of nine. Whereabouts did you 117 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: sit in the age gap there? 118 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 3: I'm lucky to be the eldest. 119 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: Oh, so you were the eldest as well, Claire? Yeah, 120 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 2: so did you find a sense of motherhood there as 121 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: well as you were looking after your siblings? 122 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 3: Yes, you would say that. I mean in a large 123 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: Catholic family like that, the older daughters are really relied 124 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 3: on to be able to help out with their siblings. 125 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: So it's not unusual at all. In that upbringing of mine, 126 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 3: it was very as I said to you, Mum went 127 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: back return to traditionalism. So she was very heavy on 128 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: religious instruction. And for my brothers she taught them to 129 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: be all to boys. And for myself and my sisters, 130 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: you know, we were taught that we were you know 131 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 3: that we had two choices, either to be a mother, 132 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 3: like to be a mother, a literal mother like get 133 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 3: married and have children, or be a mother of souls 134 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: in terms of being a nun. And therefore the upbringing 135 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 3: of girls was very different to the upbringing of boys 136 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 3: because girls needed to be submissive and subjugated, not having 137 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 3: an opinion, be quiet and sort of melt into the 138 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 3: into the background, and only come out when needed. And 139 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 3: so it was very restrictive for females. And when as 140 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: you grow older and you move through life and you 141 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 3: do their therapy and you do you know, you go 142 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 3: to university and you learn and you read and you 143 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 3: interact with others, you find that your essence and your 144 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 3: spirit is very much curbed. You know, your your hopes, 145 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 3: your dreams, your goals, your creativity, your identity, your sensuality, 146 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 3: your sexuality is all very suppressed, and it's very much 147 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 3: a suppressed conditioning which can take decades to unravel and undo. 148 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 3: But it rereaks havoc along the way because when these 149 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 3: girls leave home and they are without a sense of direction, 150 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: because they don't have a sense of identity of who 151 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 3: they are, what they like. And even in their education, 152 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 3: they're somewhat restricted because we're not looked at as being 153 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: smart enough to do mathematics or science or physics. And 154 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: I mean women in these traditional circles aren't considered smart 155 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 3: enough or you know, it's not it's it's not deemed 156 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: you know, a traditional kind of upbringing to teach your 157 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 3: girl to strive for big things. So this kind of 158 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 3: upbringing can be very quite detrimental, and as I said, 159 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: rek havoc along the way, because these girls also don't 160 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 3: have self confidence, self esteem, self worth, and therefore they 161 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 3: tend to choose men to marry that are not good 162 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 3: for them and are often domestically violent or coercive control. 163 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 3: And it can take decades for these women to unravel this, 164 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 3: and by this time they've already got a horde of 165 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 3: kids and then they've got to try and like you, know, 166 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 3: bring up the children while trying to find themselves, and 167 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 3: oftentimes the marriages end in divorce, and so they're a 168 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 3: single mother of a horde of children and it can 169 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 3: be very very difficult. 170 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 2: And how did that work out for you, Claire, Because 171 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: it sounds like that you are very much encapsulated in 172 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: that lifestyle. So how does that transpire from being a 173 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: late teen into adulthood? How does that work? Going from 174 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: being this sort of young teenager that knows no better 175 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: to then stepping out into the big wide world. How 176 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: did that work out for you? 177 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 3: Well? For me personally, I had wanted to be a 178 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 3: nurse because my mother and her two sisters were nurses, 179 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 3: and I saw it as being a very honorable vocation 180 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 3: to heal people, look after people. And when I was sixteen, 181 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 3: I was sent to do work experience at a local 182 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: geriatric home. But not having had any experience whatsoever with 183 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 3: like intellectually disabled people, I was initially put into a 184 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 3: ward with intellectually disabled people and I was very freaked 185 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: out because I did not know how to respond to them. 186 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 3: I could not understand them. I didn't know anything about them. 187 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 3: I was completely ignorant, and I thought, oh, my gosh, 188 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: this is not for me. Also, at that time, nursing 189 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 3: training was moving from being very much in hospitals to 190 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 3: being in universities and in traditional circles. Universities are very 191 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 3: much looked down on it. They're very much looked at 192 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 3: as being teaching the wrong things, having like too much power, 193 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 3: erroneous knowledge that then you know, you go there and 194 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 3: basically your mind has opened up and you don't want 195 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 3: to practice your Catholic faith anymore. So it's not encouraged 196 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 3: for women, especially to go there. And in fact, I 197 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 3: have to say it's it's a shock to the system 198 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 3: to visit my parents because they are still very much traditional. 199 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 3: I am not looked at as being how can I say, 200 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 3: I'm not appreciated for my gifts in terms of academics 201 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 3: or anything like that. And in No. Twenty twenty two, 202 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 3: when I went to visit them, there was a friend 203 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 3: of the family who is a priest, and he came 204 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 3: to the house to have dinner, and you know, I'm 205 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 3: sitting there in silence because I thought, this is a 206 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 3: great anthropological moment, and they're conversing about why many of 207 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 3: the traditional Catholic marriages of the young people are breaking up, 208 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 3: they're ending in divorce. And so between the priest, family 209 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 3: friend and my father, the conversation was the problem is 210 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 3: that women are too educated and they're too free. The 211 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 3: way to fix it is that the woman should the 212 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 3: young girl should always stay at home under the care 213 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: and obedience of her father, and she can go to university, 214 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 3: but there's only certain subjects that she can study, and 215 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: she needs to obey her father. She needs to help 216 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 3: around the house. She's not to have the autonomy. And 217 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: then when comes it comes time for her to marry, 218 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: because in these circles, you only marry within the circle. 219 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 3: You don't marry outside of the circle. So the group 220 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 3: is perpetuated. And then so basically the father Hansy's daughter 221 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: over to her new husband or the priest or bishop 222 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 3: who is running the convent. So in other words, we're 223 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 3: just chattels. And then my mother pipes up and she goes, yes, 224 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 3: these young girls don't know how, they don't know any patients, 225 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 3: they don't know any tolerance, and they don't know any prayerfulness. 226 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 3: Because if there's any problems with the husband, these are 227 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 3: the three things that they need to do. And then 228 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 3: if the husband doesn't change, well, then they just need 229 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 3: to endure it until death does part. 230 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: It's a very old school, right, this is a very 231 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: old school approach. Where do you sit and what's what avenue? 232 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 2: Did your parents push you down? Because obviously this is 233 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 2: your parents speaking, so you know this is later on 234 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: in life that you probably shocked to hear that. But 235 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 2: where where did they push you and guide you at 236 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: a younger age going into sort of your adult sort 237 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: of days. 238 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: Well, they didn't really guide me when I got married 239 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 3: the first time. Tony was an ex seminarian and he 240 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 3: had come to stay at the house and he was 241 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 3: thirteen years older than me, and it was after I 242 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 3: divorced him that I found out that he had actually 243 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 3: groomed me, and because he was looking for a nice 244 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 3: young girl to groom and so it was pretty hard 245 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 3: to be like forty years old and finding out, you know, 246 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: that you were groomed and then trying to unpack that. 247 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: When did you start to realize that actually, these things 248 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: aren't aren't so normal, and that you have and a 249 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: little bit of exposure to the outside world and realizing 250 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: that hey, a lot of people live a lot differently. 251 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, well just like for me, I, you know, 252 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 3: I got married at eighteen and a half because I 253 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 3: thought that I was in love with Tiny, but really 254 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 3: it was just an attachment. But I yeah, this, I 255 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: can verbalize this now. I could not verbalize that back then, 256 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 3: I thought, and I was taught. You know, if a woman, 257 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 3: if a wife, you know, sacrifices herself for her husband, 258 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 3: well then you know that's that's how it works, and 259 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: you go wherever the husband wants to. Now, jumping forward 260 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 3: to that second part of your question, where we moved 261 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 3: to an enclosed community on the south coast of New 262 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 3: South Wales that was very much an isolated and insular community. 263 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: And what was your day to day life there, Claire? 264 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: What did that look like? 265 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 3: Day to day life was more breach than when I 266 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: was at my parents' place, really, yeah, because it like 267 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 3: we had to attend prayers three times a day, mass 268 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: once a day. There were one hundred and eighty people 269 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 3: living on that community and we were having lunch and 270 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 3: dinner together. So it was up to the nuns and 271 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 3: the women on the community to be doing the menu plan, 272 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 3: ordering the food, preparing the meals, cooking and baking the meals, 273 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: laying it all, you know, like serving it and then 274 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 3: cleaning up afterwards. And that was on a roster system, 275 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 3: so the mothers had to do this in and around 276 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 3: their motherly duties, you know. And it was that was 277 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 3: that was worse because for me, I discovered pretty quick 278 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 3: that it was basically a nest of vipers and backstabbers. 279 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 3: And I knew that I could not. I knew it subconsciously. 280 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: I didn't know it consciously, and but I observed people, 281 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 3: and I observed actions, reactions, interactions, and I learned pretty 282 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 3: quickly that I needed to keep my mouth shut and 283 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 3: my eyes and ears open and just conform. But then 284 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 3: as wow, as time went on, and then Tony wanted 285 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 3: to become a deacon, and you know, at home, he 286 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 3: was abusive, he was a gambler. And I thought, how 287 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 3: dare you you want to become a priest and dress 288 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 3: in all the old fashioned regalia and you know, show 289 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 3: yourself to be holy and perfect in front of God 290 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 3: and in front of people, and hear people's confessions, and 291 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 3: you treat us like you do at home. No, And 292 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 3: so I rebelled against that. So I was one person 293 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: against one hundred and seventy nine other people. 294 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: You're in a gated, a closed off community. There's one 295 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty out of you. The women do the cooking, 296 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: the cleaning, the men go off and work. Who is there, 297 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,719 Speaker 2: like a let's call it the chief of the village. 298 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: You know, is our hierarchical structure within this community? And 299 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 2: where do you sit in. 300 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 3: That very good question. Absolutely a patriarchal, hierarchical, misogynistic system 301 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 3: in terms of the leader of that community was William 302 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 3: Camp otherwise known as the Little Pebble, and he was 303 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 3: in charge and he was he had elected himself as 304 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 3: being in charge because according to him, he was receiving 305 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 3: messages and visions from the blessed Virgin Mary to guide 306 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 3: these communities because there was not just one, there was 307 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 3: several of them, like in Australia, around the world. And 308 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: he was chosen by our Lady apparently to guide these people, 309 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 3: the elect, the chosen people to the end of the world. 310 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 3: You know, when the end of the world was going 311 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,719 Speaker 3: to happen, we were the chosen people. We were the 312 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: ones that were going to survive the y two K 313 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 3: bug when everybody else outside of those gates and fences 314 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: and those communities were going to die. 315 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: Basically, it's an emotional blackmail. Is he saying outside of 316 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: these gates and this community, there's nothing but death and 317 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: destruction and disease, and so you know you daren't venture there, right, 318 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 2: it's because you're being fed. I suppose you've got a 319 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 2: roof over your heads. You don't want to split up 320 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:39,239 Speaker 2: from the family, your family, so you know it's a 321 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 2: way of emotionally blackmailing you to stay. 322 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And it was very much that emotional 323 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 3: manipulation and guilt and the fear too, because you know 324 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 3: when you and this is what people don't understand. Like 325 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 3: I know, I've had people say to me like that, 326 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 3: they've watched things on TV, you know, about these groups, 327 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 3: and they'd go, I'd never be so stupid as to 328 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 3: join something like that. But it's not about that. All 329 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 3: of us have a vulnerable period in our lives and 330 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 3: we're looking for answers. And that can be spiritually, it 331 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 3: can be emotionally, it can be you financially, it can 332 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 3: be anything. And so we will believe anything. So when 333 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 3: there's somebody that tells you what you want to hear, 334 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 3: you believe it. And also it happens slowly. It's a 335 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 3: little bit by a little bit. They never ever lay 336 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 3: everything out so that you can actually read all the. 337 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 2: Time by a thousand cuts. 338 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 3: Exactly, and you're in it, and then every day it's 339 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 3: something new. Oh, our lady said, you've got to say 340 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: this prayer every day in order to get your place 341 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 3: in heaven, you know. And then oh yeah, just as 342 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 3: just as you think, oh my god, I don't know 343 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 3: how I'm going to fit this in, but anyway I 344 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 3: have to. So you're fitting this in, and then you know, 345 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 3: next minute, oh, there's something else, and then there's something else. 346 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 3: And I specifically remember I was pegging out cloth nappies 347 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 3: one day and I reached this point of sheer exhaustion, 348 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 3: like mentally, physically, emotionally, financially, spiritually, and I just like 349 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 3: I remember pegging out the nappies and just going, God, 350 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 3: I can't do this anymore. I literally can't say any 351 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: more prayers. I just can't. I'm done. I've already said 352 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: enough prayers for God knows how many souls in my life. 353 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: Because for us everything had to be a prayer. We 354 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 3: had to you know, pegging out clothes on the line, 355 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: we had to be saying prayers, there was just never 356 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 3: a break. 357 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 2: Did you feel like that you were saying prayers for 358 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 2: other people but no one was answering yours in. 359 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 3: A way, yes, in a way yes. And it was 360 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 3: then that I thought, even though I have no idea 361 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 3: what living in the outside world is like, it has 362 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: to be easier than this. It has to be because 363 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 3: I can't imagine it being like, you know, worse than this. 364 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: And what was Tony doing at this stage? How was 365 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: your relationship with Tony? Did you have any children? And 366 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 2: what did your sort of family life look like? Drawing 367 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: those moments of doubt, of wanting to escape, of wanting 368 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 2: to to believe that there's a better life outside of 369 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 2: this community. 370 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 3: Well, our marriage was a mess, and it had been 371 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 3: for quite a few years. Like at this point when 372 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 3: he had decided that he wanted to become a deacon, 373 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 3: I was pregnant with our ninth child, and I was done. 374 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 3: I was just done in every and any way you 375 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 3: want to put it. I was done, and I was 376 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 3: right at the end. I was gone past the end 377 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 3: of my tail. And for him, he was just thinking 378 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 3: that I was going to accept him becoming a deacon 379 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 3: and just doing whatever he wanted. Where but I was 380 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 3: not about to do that at all. 381 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 2: Where did a deacon sit within this hierarchical structure. 382 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 3: Well, the Catholic Church has deacons now, so the deacon 383 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 3: is is the last order before becoming a priest, got you? 384 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 3: So he went up to the orders of subdeacon and 385 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 3: he wanted to continue on to the priesthood. And I 386 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 3: just that was just the last straw for me because 387 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 3: I honestly thought, this is not okay. I'm not doing 388 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 3: I'm not going to go along with this. I didn't 389 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 3: I didn't think the marriage would end, but I like, 390 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 3: I wasn't going to agree to what he wanted. And 391 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 3: it was also the fact that he was just continuing 392 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 3: to do whatever he wanted and not taking into account 393 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 3: anything about the children and myself. So then I, you know, 394 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 3: I started looking for places or you know, I started 395 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 3: thinking about serious moving out. I didn't know how it 396 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 3: was going to come about. 397 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 2: Did he know that you wanted to move out? Did 398 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 2: he know that you felt like this? Did he have 399 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 2: any you know, any thing whatsoever that you were going 400 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: to you had just had enough. 401 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 3: Well the period that I'm talking about now, that was 402 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 3: two thousand and four. Back in two thousand. In the 403 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 3: year two thousand, I went to Tony and I said 404 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 3: I want to move out, and he said, no, we're 405 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: not moving. And I mean, I had no access to 406 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: any funds, any money. We didn't share a bank account, 407 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 3: I had nothing. 408 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: So I literally was done on purpose. 409 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 3: Yes, like I mean, I didn't realize it then, but 410 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 3: you know obviously later on. But I had access to nothing. 411 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 3: I didn't even know people on the outside. It was 412 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 3: very isolating, and so no, I didn't tell him anything 413 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 3: because I knew that if I did, it would be 414 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 3: my downfall in terms of he would block it any 415 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 3: which way you could. 416 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 2: What was going through your head? Did you said you'd 417 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: had enough, you're pregnant with your ninth child, or you've 418 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 2: got nine children? At this stage, you're trapped. There is 419 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 2: no way out right. Where are you going to go? 420 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: How are you going to look after your children? Are 421 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 2: you just dreaming of about life? 422 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 3: Well, the way I looked at it was if I 423 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 3: I did write three letters to William cam challenging him 424 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 3: on doctrinal matters of the church, because on the one hand, 425 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: he would stand up there on a Sunday and preach, 426 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 3: you know, preach to us that we weren't following the 427 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 3: rules of the Catholic Church. And then I'm thinking, but 428 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 3: you're not, so basically you're a hypocrite. And so on 429 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 3: the one hand, you're saying obey the Catholic Church. On 430 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 3: the other hand, you're going ahead and illicitly and invalidly 431 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: consecrating and ordaining married men as bishops and priests, which 432 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 3: is not allowed. So can you tell me how that 433 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 3: married up? And that's literally what I asked him. I said, 434 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 3: according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and these 435 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 3: two canons of in the Code of Canon Law, it 436 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 3: specifically says you can't do it, So can you tell 437 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 3: me how does this work? And obviously he couldn't. And 438 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 3: it was and there were the first two letters were 439 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 3: written by the priest, you know, who was basically who's 440 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 3: always been manipulated by him, and it were the answers 441 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 3: were only about you know, the virgin Mary said that 442 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 3: he could do this. And I said, but you know, 443 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 3: going back to what the Catholic Church says that we're 444 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: supposed to be following, can you show me where. 445 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,640 Speaker 2: I bet he didn't like that. I bet you you 446 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 2: you became a thorn in his side. I bet he 447 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 2: was like, right, we've got we've got someone that's challenging me. 448 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 2: Now I've got to get rid of her. 449 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. And the way he the way he started 450 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 3: it was the house and land that we were living on. 451 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 3: He was paying the mortgage to that, so he stopped 452 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 3: paying the mortgage, which ended up in a mortgage repossession, 453 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 3: which is how we became evicted from the property. But 454 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 3: I mean, the children and I were thrilled about it. 455 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, we loved it. 456 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 2: So what happened? Did you just get a knock at 457 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 2: the door one day saying, ye, get out, you're being evicted. 458 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the sheriff his name was John, I'll never 459 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 3: forget his name, and big tall guy, and he came 460 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 3: to the door and knocked on the door and he 461 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 3: heeded me. This water papers was probably about an inch thick, 462 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: and he said, oh, you know, we're repossessing the house. 463 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 3: And I knew what it meant, but I thought, just 464 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 3: give me the gist of it, because I don't want 465 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: to be wading through an inch of papers at this point. 466 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 3: And he said, well, man, we're going to you know, 467 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 3: we need to take possession of the house and you've 468 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 3: got twelve days to move. And I'm like, oh my god, 469 00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 3: thank you. 470 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 2: Oh you were happy about that? I suppose us a 471 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 2: way out for you? 472 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, yes, Yeah. I was thrilled. And then when 473 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 3: my kids came home from school that afternoon, I told 474 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 3: them and they were thrilled to the back teeth. So 475 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 3: we ended up by I mean, Tony was not happy 476 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 3: at all, like at all, you know, like how dad 477 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: was he raging internally? Yes, because he was like, oh, 478 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 3: how dare my wife, like, you know, cause this problem? 479 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 3: Because he said to me that he was happy in 480 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 3: inverted commas for me for me to write my name 481 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 3: on the bottom of the letters. That challenged William Can 482 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 3: because he said, I won't. I won't write my name 483 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 3: on the bottom of them, because that way, if there's 484 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 3: any of you know, if you if you get into trouble, 485 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: they weren't a victors or they won't tell us to leave. 486 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 3: And I thought, whatever you do, you and I'm going 487 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 3: to go ahead and do it anyway. And so that's 488 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 3: what I did. And I I never when I started 489 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 3: writing those letters, I had zero idea that it would 490 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: end up in being an eviction. I didn't even feat 491 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 3: that far ahead in my mind. I was standing up 492 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: for what was the truth. 493 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 2: Yep, So you've got twelve days. What do you do 494 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 2: within those twelve days? And does he adhere to Is 495 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 2: it real? Are you actually getting kicked out? 496 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 3: Look, I didn't care whether it was for real or not. 497 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 3: I was taking it for real and I was acting 498 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 3: on it. There was no backing out for this girl. 499 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 3: I'm telling you, you were gone. I was onto it. 500 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 3: I mean, this happened on a Friday, so there was 501 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 3: not much I could do for me. And then first 502 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 3: sing Monday morning, I took At that point, the children 503 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 3: were going to a school outside, so I took them 504 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: to school. I spoke to the principal and I just said, 505 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 3: this is what's happened. I don't have a house right now, 506 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 3: I don't know what I'm doing exactly, and I'm just 507 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 3: leing you know, this is what's happened. He was a 508 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 3: Christian school, and the principle was really lovely and like 509 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 3: I'd never had, you know, all my life, I'd always 510 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 3: been taught that, you know, you needed to crawl on 511 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 3: your hands and knees and be in the state of 512 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: grace before you you know, you know, everything had to 513 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 3: be perfect before you prayed, all the rest of it. 514 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 3: And literally I was sitting there with my youngest sitting 515 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: on my knee, and then the other the next one 516 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 3: up just beside me, and he said, let's pray, and 517 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 3: he just bowed his head and he just spoke to 518 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 3: Jesus like Jesus was just sitting in the room with us, 519 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 3: and like it brought tears to my eyes. It was 520 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 3: the prayer was so heartfelt. It was just amazing. And 521 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 3: I thought, wow, like you can just pray like that, 522 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 3: that's mad. And then the thing was that it was 523 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 3: a it was a Christian school and had the old 524 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 3: church attached to it as well, and unbeknownst to me, 525 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 3: like the community got together and well there was one 526 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:08,719 Speaker 3: lady that motherized a couple of people and like you know, 527 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 3: helped us move. Like she actually came over on the 528 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 3: Monday afternoon and then she just knocked on the door 529 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 3: and she just says, Hi, I'm Mongey. She said, I'm 530 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 3: here to help you, help you find a house to 531 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 3: move to. I'm like, what, because all see, all of 532 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 3: my life I've been spoken like We've been taught about 533 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 3: Christian charity, but the Christian the charity that I was 534 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 3: taught about hanging in helping others. We could only help 535 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 3: those who were in a state of grace and who 536 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 3: were willing to become Catholic. There were conditions. It was 537 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 3: a conditional charity. I'd never had somebody knock on my 538 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 3: door and just go, hey, I'm here to help you 539 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 3: find a house. It's like, what the heck? What were 540 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 3: you talk about? And she said, oh, I've cleared my 541 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 3: calendar for the whole week. I'm going to come help you. 542 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 3: I'm like what And again it just like I thought, 543 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 3: what God really works like this? It was unbelievable. 544 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,000 Speaker 2: So you've literally gone from a religious cult, you know, 545 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 2: hardcore doomsday cult to now having to adapt and adjust 546 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: to a brand new society, a brand new way of living. 547 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 2: Where's Tony at this stage? Is he coming along with you? 548 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 2: Is he backing you? Or is he staying with William 549 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: and in his community looking to, you know, push himself 550 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: up the ranks. 551 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 3: Oh no, he was well. He was sulky and quiet, 552 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 3: and at that point he was being employed to work 553 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 3: down at Golben by an old family friend, so he 554 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 3: was out of the way, so the kids and I 555 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 3: were free to do what we wanted. He did have 556 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 3: to move with us because there was no place where 557 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 3: he and like I mean, Tony, you know, he needed 558 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 3: to keep the family together for his own you know, 559 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 3: for his own pride, I suppose, but I mean, I 560 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 3: mean I kind of killed off the pride because package 561 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 3: to be proud of a wife who has done such 562 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 3: a terrible thing. I had white anted everything and orchestrated 563 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 3: this move. So he wasn't happy about it at all. 564 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 3: But like we moved. We managed to move. I'd found 565 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 3: a house, I applied for it and we had to 566 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 3: be out by eleven am on the Wednesday. And I 567 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 3: I was so sure I was going to get a house. 568 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 3: And it came to five twenty pm on the Monday 569 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 3: and I had nothing. And then I rang Maggie and 570 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 3: she said ring the real estate so I rang them, 571 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 3: and at five twenty nine pm I found out that 572 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 3: I had a he to move into on the Wednesday, 573 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 3: but I couldn't sign the lease until three pm Tuesday. 574 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 3: It was so tight because when I first rang the 575 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,439 Speaker 3: real estate agent at five twenty she wasn't in and 576 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: they said, oh, she'll call you back, and I thought, oh, 577 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 3: it's five twenty. She's not going to ring that. Are 578 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 3: you serious? And I thought, I've got to sit here. 579 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,919 Speaker 3: I've got to be here all night, just feeling ain't 580 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 3: so anxious, So wound up. What am we going to do? 581 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 3: Because for me, there was only one choice. We were moving, 582 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 3: come hell or high water, we were moving. I was 583 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 3: not going to stay. I was never ever going to stay. 584 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 3: That was not on the cards. There was only a 585 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 3: plan A. There was no other plans. 586 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,760 Speaker 2: So Claire, you've you've now got this house last minute, 587 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: the skinny skin of your teeth. What are you feeling? 588 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: I can only imagine it was a massive emotional rollercoaster 589 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 2: for you, because what's going through your mind when and 590 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 2: how are you feeling when you've got the keys to 591 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 2: this new house and you're just about to move into it. 592 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 3: Well, this house, like my kids still remember it and 593 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 3: they still talk about it because it was a former 594 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 3: display house and it was two stories, four bedrooms, two bathrooms, 595 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: three toilets, and it had a dishwasher. And to people 596 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 3: listening to that, they're thinking, that's just normal, Like that's 597 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 3: just what stock standard comes with a house. Well, in 598 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 3: my world, it didn't. And I tell you what, we 599 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 3: felt like we were keys. To be honest, it was 600 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 3: a brand new house. We had a dishwasher, which meant 601 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 3: that we weren't slaving, you know, doing a lot of dishes. 602 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 3: There were three toilets, so there was no waiting for 603 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 3: the toilet. There was two bathrooms, like the first time 604 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 3: in my life, I had an en suite, and it 605 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 3: was like we were living in luxury. 606 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 2: And was there a moment of realization that you realize 607 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 2: that you're now living a normal life and for years 608 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 2: and years and years and years, what you thought was 609 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 2: normal was a complete lie. 610 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 3: It's interesting that you asked that question because a couple 611 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 3: of years ago I did an interview with a Jewish 612 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 3: sociologist in New York who for his PhD, he was 613 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 3: a Hasidic Jew, so he was enclosed the in a 614 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 3: community as well, and for his PhD he interviewed other 615 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 3: Hasidic Jews who had also left. And it's the same 616 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 3: in terms of you want to draw a line in 617 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 3: the sand, but when you've grown up like that, it's 618 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 3: part of your identity. You can never get rid of 619 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 3: it because it's part of the way you were brought 620 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 3: up as part of your formation. It's always going to 621 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 3: be part of your identity, and it depends on how 622 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 3: you unpack that identity. And for me, it was only 623 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 3: in the last probably ten years that I started to 624 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 3: understand that. But in those first days, it was actually 625 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 3: really strange because when you come from an enclosed, insular 626 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 3: community where everything is on a timetable and you've got 627 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 3: to ask permission to go out to do your grocery 628 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 3: shopping and all that sort of thing, like somebody's always 629 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 3: got tabs on you, it feels really really weird to 630 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 3: be like, well, I've had breakfast and I've put the 631 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,320 Speaker 3: dishes in the dish washer. The kids are at school. 632 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 3: Now what what do I need to do? Like, you know, 633 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 3: like it's almost like somebody coming out of the military. 634 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 3: You know, everything has. 635 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 2: Been Yeah, you're so conditioned that it feels if you 636 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 2: feel like you're doing something wrong. Don't you feel like 637 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 2: that you're not getting it right? Ultimately you are. You've 638 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 2: just been so conditioned in one life that the norm 639 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 2: just seems like the unnorm. And you start, I suppose 640 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 2: you start questioning yourself, don't you. 641 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 3: Well, I did initially because it was like, am I 642 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 3: wasting time? Because we were always taught and instructed don't 643 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 3: waste time, don't waste a minute. You've always got to 644 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 3: be busy. And again that's part of their m in 645 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 3: terms of like keeping everybody busy. So it was really weird. 646 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 3: It took a very long time to undo that, and 647 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 3: even I remember specifically, I've been thinking about it for 648 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 3: a while about I didn't like the fact that I 649 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 3: was forced to go to church every Sunday or otherwise 650 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 3: I'd be committing a mortal sin. And so it took 651 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 3: me a while to this in my own brain. By 652 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 3: this time, Tiny and I were divorced. But I thought, well, 653 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 3: I want to be like other normal people who sit 654 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 3: in bed on Sundays and read the paper and have 655 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 3: breakfast and coffee in bed. And so I thought, okay, 656 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,439 Speaker 3: I will do it on such and such Sunday. And 657 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 3: I've always been an early bird. But I mean, I thought, right, 658 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 3: I'm not going to set my own alarm. I'm going 659 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 3: to allow myself to wake up when I wake up, 660 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 3: and I'm not going to mass. And I remember, like, 661 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 3: I still woke up in plenty of time to get 662 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 3: ready for Mass, and then I thought, no, I'm not going. 663 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 3: I said I wasn't going, So I'm not going. I'm 664 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 3: going to stay home. I'm going to make myself a 665 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 3: nice breakfast, I'm going to make coffee, and I'm going 666 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 3: to sit in bed and I'm going to enjoy it. 667 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 3: And I literally had an anxiety attack because I had 668 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 3: been told that the sun rises and the world spins 669 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 3: merely because there are priests that say the Tredentine Mass, 670 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 3: and if you don't go, well then you're committing a 671 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 3: mortal sin. And also you are impeding God's plan. And 672 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 3: I was terrified. And I remember I was lying in 673 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 3: bed and peeping out from under the covers and going, Okay, 674 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 3: the sun's rising. I don't feel any earth tremors anything 675 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 3: like that. And I mean it might sound really really 676 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 3: extreme to people when I describe this, but it was 677 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 3: so true for me, and I know that it's so 678 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 3: true for other people who have been through this as well. 679 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 3: In terms of the religious trauma that one goes through 680 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 3: in trying to unravel all of that, it's very difficult. 681 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 3: It takes a long time. And this is what people 682 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 3: who have not experienced it don't understand the length of 683 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 3: time it takes to peel away all the layers and 684 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,800 Speaker 3: be able to come back to a sense of self 685 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:09,839 Speaker 3: and autonomy. 686 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that sense of self. It's right, Claire. 687 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 2: You've written a book that goes a lot more into 688 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 2: detail about this, The Lessons from a cult survivor. Is 689 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 2: that how you would identify yourself? Because not a lot 690 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 2: of people do actually get out unscathed, do they? 691 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 3: Well, nobody gets out unscathed. It all depends. And I mean, 692 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 3: I was very lucky to have some good people, you know, 693 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 3: come into my life along the way. And one of 694 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,799 Speaker 3: those people he said to me, don't ever stop your 695 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,959 Speaker 3: therapy because there's always something else, and there is there's 696 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 3: always something else. And whether or not you've been you know, 697 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 3: you've got religious trauma or being brought up in a 698 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:58,280 Speaker 3: strict religious family, you're still going to have some strange 699 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 3: habits or harmful habits from your family of origin, and 700 00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 3: they impact you every day and it takes a very 701 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,280 Speaker 3: long time to come away from that. And I don't 702 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 3: call the only reason I named my book. I gave 703 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 3: my book that title is because it matched my first 704 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 3: ted X talk, So I thought that was a good idea. 705 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 3: But I wouldn't call myself a survivor. I because surviving 706 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 3: really means that, you know, you're really just scraping by. 707 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 3: But I don't see it like that. You know, I thrive. 708 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 3: And actually I received a great compliment recently when I 709 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 3: attended a theological conference in Melbourne and we were talking 710 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 3: about religious trauma and I spoke a little bit about mine, 711 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 3: and later on one young lady came sidling up to 712 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 3: me and she said, thank you for sharing your story. 713 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,799 Speaker 3: She said, I love that you just frame it out 714 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 3: a little bit and just go I'm fine. She said, 715 00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 3: you're not looking for pity or anything like that. It 716 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,720 Speaker 3: out on the line that like, yes, this has happened, 717 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,399 Speaker 3: but you have and are working through all little bits 718 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 3: and pieces. You're doing your therapy, you're doing all of 719 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 3: the things I'm here to share. 720 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love that you as well. Looking at 721 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 2: that as well. You know, you're not saying religion is 722 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 2: a bad thing. There's good in religion, and you said 723 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 2: it at the very beginning of this podcast. If you 724 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:22,879 Speaker 2: look at it in the right way, if you look 725 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,319 Speaker 2: at it in a positive or healthy way, it's how 726 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 2: you it's how you interpret it, and I love that 727 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,280 Speaker 2: you haven't just completely gone right. This has been so traumatic. 728 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to completely cut that out and I don't 729 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 2: believe none of that works, and I'm going to completely 730 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,399 Speaker 2: have a new life from the negatives that you've had. 731 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 2: You've almost plucked the positives from there, and you're using 732 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 2: that to thrive in this new life that you have. 733 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 2: Now that's what I see. 734 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 3: Well, thank you, and I see for me now, I 735 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 3: don't identify as Catholic per se, because I choose not 736 00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 3: to go to Mass. However, I do love all of 737 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:07,080 Speaker 3: the ascetics of Catholicism, the churches, the frescoes, the kindles, 738 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 3: the music, the incense, all of that. It just lights 739 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 3: up my soul. And so for me, you cherry pick 740 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 3: the bits that you like and you adapt it into 741 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 3: your life to suit you. And this doesn't make it 742 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,919 Speaker 3: wrong or bad or weird. And you know, even in 743 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,399 Speaker 3: with this Jewish sociologist, when I interviewed him, he said 744 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 3: himself that he still identifies as Jewish, he just doesn't 745 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,399 Speaker 3: practice the way he is expected to. And he too 746 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:44,319 Speaker 3: has cherry picked certain things from Judaism that he still 747 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,960 Speaker 3: practices in his life because he said, I'm Jewish and 748 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 3: as part of me, and I love it. I know 749 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 3: another Jewish young man who has left his Hasidic community 750 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 3: and he still loves eating the hullus and like, I 751 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 3: actually make the dough for him and then he comes 752 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 3: over and he plats it and we bake it and 753 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 3: then we have a nice catch up while it's baking. 754 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 3: And I mean, he said, you know, I'm still ultimately, 755 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 3: I'm still Jewish ethnically, culturally, I'm still Jewish. And he said, 756 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,280 Speaker 3: there's things about Judaism that I still want to keep. 757 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 3: And I think that is the magic in it. Rather 758 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 3: than drawing a line and going I hate it, I 759 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,440 Speaker 3: hate the Catholic Church. Hat you're really living in a 760 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,120 Speaker 3: lot of hate, and you're living in a lot of trauma, 761 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 3: and you're actually missing out on a lot in life, 762 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,960 Speaker 3: like you really are. And I mean you might you know, 763 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 3: some people might be very happy to walk away and 764 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 3: not miss anything. And that is fine too. I'm just 765 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 3: saying for me, I just love like I spent the 766 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,720 Speaker 3: first six months of last year as an exchange student 767 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 3: over in the Netherlands, and I did some traveling and like, 768 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 3: I literally went into about twenty five churches while I 769 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:00,760 Speaker 3: was in Rome, and I didn't plan that. I literally 770 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,000 Speaker 3: was just wandering down the street like yo at church, 771 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,320 Speaker 3: I mean you know, and it was it was amazing. 772 00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 3: I love it. 773 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, in that moment, that felt like the right thing 774 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,560 Speaker 2: to do for Yeah, absolutely. 775 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 3: Absolutely lit up my soul. And I still look back 776 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:21,160 Speaker 3: on the photos and I love every you know, every photo. 777 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 3: I remember where I was, I remember the smell, I 778 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 3: remember everything, and it you know, it just lights my 779 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,680 Speaker 3: soul up. And you know, it will do that for 780 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,359 Speaker 3: some people. Other people will choose not it will choose 781 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,840 Speaker 3: something else, and that is completely fine, Claire. 782 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 2: I feel a positive sort of energy from an aura 783 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 2: from the screen, which I rarely get. So it's been 784 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 2: an absolute pleasure talking to you. But a final question, 785 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 2: how's the family and how's the children. 786 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 3: Oh they're all doing very well, Thank you so much. Yes, 787 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:57,840 Speaker 3: they're all grown up. They're aged thirty five down to 788 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:03,520 Speaker 3: twenty one now, and wow, it just seems I'm shocked 789 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 3: sometimes to think, oh I've got my youngest is twenty one. 790 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,359 Speaker 3: But you know, it's been a journey and it's been 791 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,720 Speaker 3: a good journey, and you know, the kids are all 792 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 3: off doing their own thing there. They're all adults, and 793 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,400 Speaker 3: it's really lovely to be together and you have times 794 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,479 Speaker 3: together and be able to reminisce about these times because 795 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 3: even for the children, you know, they still have happy 796 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 3: memories of like even though we were living in that 797 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,600 Speaker 3: enclosed community, they had the freedom to go outside and 798 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 3: play and pick macadamia nuts and things like that, and 799 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,800 Speaker 3: it's lovely for me to hear this conversation around the 800 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,000 Speaker 3: table when they visit. 801 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 2: Well, they're lucky to have a mom like you. Claire. 802 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 2: Thanks and thank you so much. All the best for 803 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,719 Speaker 2: the future and take care. 804 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 3: Thank you. 805 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,400 Speaker 2: Claire's book, Lessons from a Cult Survivor is available now. 806 00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 2: I'll put the details in the show notes. Thanks for 807 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,880 Speaker 2: joining me on this episode of head Game. If you 808 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 2: enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend. I'm 809 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,439 Speaker 2: at Middleton. See you again next time.