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Speaker 1: Approche production.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand. For a long time, there's a been a

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Speaker 2: perception that youth is out of control. You can find

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Speaker 2: graffiti on the walls of Pompeii from five hundred BC

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Speaker 2: bemoaning the lack of respect from young men about society's

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Speaker 2: norms and engaging in what we might call gang culture. Today,

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Speaker 2: these days, we have a pervading sense of crisis about

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Speaker 2: youth crime, shoplifting, ram raids, home invasions, and gang crime.

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Speaker 2: Almost daily, we have stories in the news of violent

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Speaker 2: confrontations between machete wielding gangs in the streets and shopping centers.

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Speaker 2: Seventeen ages have been charged with murder after stabbing deaths

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Speaker 2: of two boys in Melbourne. Young men breaking you to

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Speaker 2: homes to steal vehicles and lead the police on wild

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Speaker 2: and dangerous pursuits.

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Speaker 1: So gunman is on the run this morning after daylight

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Speaker 1: execution style shooting of a twenty one year old man.

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Speaker 2: We have a court system that ours on the side

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Speaker 2: of bail. Too often. We have repeat offenders whose lines

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Speaker 2: are destined to be lived in jails. What's the answer?

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Speaker 2: Former Victoria policeman Pat Boyle warned about the rising tide

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Speaker 2: of gang culture in Victoria almost twenty years ago. As

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Speaker 2: a cop specializing in street gangs, he could see the

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Speaker 2: future we're living today. He wrote a master's thesis, the

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Speaker 2: first ever undertaken in Australia, which set out the problem.

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Speaker 2: Did they listen to him? I'll let Pat answer that.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to real crime, Pat.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Adam, and thanks for the introduction.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely pleasure. Great career puts you on the cold face

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Speaker 2: of these sort of issues. When did you first start

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Speaker 2: to see what we now call a gang problem emerging

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Speaker 2: in Victoria in two.

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Speaker 1: Thousand and three? Was the first time I saw a

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Speaker 1: rising concern. I was seeing things happening that weren't the

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Speaker 1: norm in Victoria. And basically at the time, I was

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Speaker 1: inspector in charge of the Ation squad and I was

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Speaker 1: seeing escalation in violence Asian on Asian situation, usually Vietnamese

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Speaker 1: and a triple shooting in Chinatown and what started my interest.

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Speaker 1: So I got a call out to that event and

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Speaker 1: then from there I saw three more incidents, drive by

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Speaker 1: shootings at restaurants, gangs meeting to have a fight and

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Speaker 1: basically finding a location and then deciding to move away

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Speaker 1: from that location, and then the gang then followed each

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Speaker 1: other to another location, and one guy popped out of

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Speaker 1: the roof of the sun roof and started shooting at

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Speaker 1: the gang behind him. So it was just something that

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Speaker 1: wasn't the norm for us, and so I started creating interest,

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Speaker 1: and so I started looking into gang behavior, and it

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Speaker 1: all sort of moved from there. I undertook a Churchill

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Speaker 1: fellowship and went overseas and looked at the problems in

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Speaker 1: the UK and Hong Kong and New York and Canada

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Speaker 1: for three months and came back, and then I decided

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Speaker 1: to take it even further and undertake a master's degree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm surprised to hear you say that this gang

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Speaker 2: problem was only apparent in the early two thousands. I

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Speaker 2: think Victoria has done a roaring trading gangs going back

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Speaker 2: to Squezy Taylor and the Painters and Doggars and all

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Speaker 2: kinds of gangs we've seen. But what makes what you

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Speaker 2: were seeing in this period more distinctive than what we've

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Speaker 2: seen before the organized crime of Victoria.

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Speaker 1: The extreme violence was probably the difference. Obviously, back in

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Speaker 1: those days that you mentioned that gangs were present but

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Speaker 1: it was a different situation then. You know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of that situation was more organized crime. This situation isn't that.

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Speaker 1: It's spontaneous incidents or opportunistic in a number of cases,

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Speaker 1: or sometimes planned as well. You know, but the fear

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Speaker 1: factor is the big thing at the moment, and the rapid,

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Speaker 1: rapid rise. It's just escalated so fast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because we've seen people describe the concerns about gangs

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Speaker 2: as being a moral panic. That was probably a few

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Speaker 2: years ago. Now we're seeing it writ large on the

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Speaker 2: streets where it is a serious problem. It's gone well

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Speaker 2: beyond the moral panic. What could you see coming in

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Speaker 2: those years that really made you focus on studying this

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Speaker 2: problem as it was emerging.

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Speaker 1: Well, the reason I undertook the study is because lack

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Speaker 1: of knowledge and then lack of ability for a response,

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Speaker 1: and also denial by command at that stage too, you know,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have gangs. We had use who were causing trouble,

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Speaker 1: so to speak, groups and that gang word was a

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Speaker 1: bit of a dirty word that was used and they

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Speaker 1: didn't like it. But behind the scenes they agreed that

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Speaker 1: there was a gang, but there wasn't politically correct to

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Speaker 1: say that. But in time, it got to the stage

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Speaker 1: where well you've really got no choice here, and then

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Speaker 1: you've got me in the background saying well, we've got

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Speaker 1: this situation. With a change of command, it went from

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Speaker 1: Christine Nixon to ken Lay, and ken Lay he knew

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Speaker 1: me very well and approached me and says, you know,

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Speaker 1: what is the situation? He started changing things. Obviously, in

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Speaker 1: between that, with Simon Overland, it's another story again, he

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Speaker 1: didn't show any interest either. We formed a gang task

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Speaker 1: Force within the Asian Squad in response to that triple

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Speaker 1: shooting because I note I saw that there was a problem,

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Speaker 1: met with command at the time and they decided that

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Speaker 1: I was right, let's look at this situation. We had

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Speaker 1: a task force running for about a year and that

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Speaker 1: task force agreed that there was a gang problem. We're

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Speaker 1: looking specifically at Asian crime at the time, and out

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Speaker 1: of that came nothing. A really good report said we

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Speaker 1: had a problem. My recommendations, and one of those recommendations

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Speaker 1: was to increase my crew by one by sergeant and

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Speaker 1: three to specialize and keep working on gangs because you've

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Speaker 1: started something and now you've identified it, so you need

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Speaker 1: to keep searching.

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Speaker 2: And that was not back knocked back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was noted back.

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Speaker 2: So all you were after was one unit of three

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Speaker 2: people and a sergeant.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 2: What would that have costed?

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Speaker 1: Oh jeez, well probably four and a grand I suppose

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Speaker 1: when I think about it, when you sort put all

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Speaker 1: the wages together in superannuation. But the point was that

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Speaker 1: we had a task force to establish whether we had

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Speaker 1: a gang problem, and then when you prove you have,

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Speaker 1: you then say you don't do anything about it because

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Speaker 1: you just walk away, which doesn't make sense to me

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Speaker 1: at all.

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Speaker 2: Because we did see various high ranking police officers stand

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Speaker 2: up in front of the media and say there are

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Speaker 2: no gangs in Victoria. You're right. It was political correctness,

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Speaker 2: and what their members were seeing on the streets was

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Speaker 2: very different. Yes, Why do you think that they were

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Speaker 2: so wrapped up in political correctness when you could see,

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Speaker 2: for instance, the overrepresentation in the crime stats of young

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Speaker 2: men in particular, and assaults specifically.

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Speaker 1: I really wish I could answer that. It seemed common

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Speaker 1: sense to say, you know, you're saying this to the public,

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Speaker 1: but the public can see that it's there, so why

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Speaker 1: would you deny that? And it was just avoidance of

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Speaker 1: using that word, even though they knew that that was

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Speaker 1: the situation. Look in some cases it wasn't a gang

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Speaker 1: at all. It was just a bunch of use that

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Speaker 1: were causing problems, you know. And unfortunately we use the

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Speaker 1: gang words too loosely, and I was very much pushing

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Speaker 1: for that too, that not to use it as strongly

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Speaker 1: as what it has been used by the press, and

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Speaker 1: so ensure through intelligence led policing that we've established this

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Speaker 1: as a gang and then say it's a gang. My

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Speaker 1: cycle gangs, you can identify them quite easily, and you

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Speaker 1: use the names of those particular gangs quite loosely as well,

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Speaker 1: because they've been around for so long. But with street gangs,

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Speaker 1: when you start naming names, you then cause influence and

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Speaker 1: you cause interest, and other kids then join that gang.

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Speaker 1: They gravitate towards it because it's the it's the flavor

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Speaker 1: of the month.

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Speaker 2: You are so right. I did my research. I should

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Speaker 2: have got a PhD for it. Going on the outloor

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Speaker 2: motorcycle clubs, and I called them clubs deliberately because in

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Speaker 2: the media it was all about outlaw motorcycle gangs, and

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Speaker 2: what I was seeing inside a couple of clubs like

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Speaker 2: the finx Hell's Angels. Was this media hype was making

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Speaker 2: these clubs more attractive. I was seeing a particular things.

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Speaker 2: There was a queue of people trying to join.

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Speaker 1: There's a recruiting drive. That's what it is. And that's

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Speaker 1: why I got very nervous. Whenever the media used to

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Speaker 1: call me about particular gangs and who is it, I said,

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Speaker 1: I'll never tell you that, because you know, once it

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Speaker 1: gets the court, well well it would be discussed there.

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Speaker 1: But in between, you're actually providing kudos, and it's free advertising.

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Speaker 1: You can't pay for this. You couldn't pay for the

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Speaker 1: amount of publicity you get from what's seen in the

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Speaker 1: newspapers and on the news. In some new paper articles

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Speaker 1: us to show the lists of gangs across the across

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Speaker 1: the state and where they're located. Thinking, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you just you can't pay for this.

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Speaker 2: You really can't. I mean, I've read your thesis all

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Speaker 2: one hundred and ninety five pages. Some of it are

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Speaker 2: skin but one of the real things you zero in

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Speaker 2: on is the question of definition or description. Explain the

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Speaker 2: difference with.

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Speaker 1: A definition you're locked in, and I'll give you sort

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Speaker 1: of an idea. Say, look, I always use a description

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Speaker 1: of say killer going back thirty years ago, is that

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Speaker 1: the same sat Kilda today? No, it's not. It's totally different.

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Speaker 1: It's trendy to be there. Yes, there are still problems,

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Speaker 1: as with any any suburb, and unfortunately some people gravitate

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Speaker 1: towards that suburb. But what it was, if we described

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Speaker 1: it thirty years ago and stuck with that definition, we'd

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Speaker 1: have a definition that's totally wrong and it's not what

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Speaker 1: it was. It's the same with gangs. Unfortunately, with a definition,

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Speaker 1: it actually locks you in. In the US, they have

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Speaker 1: definitions for gangs and that's then a legislative requirement, and

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Speaker 1: then sometimes that's doesn't necessarily match what the gang now

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Speaker 1: looks like in comparison to what the situation was before.

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Speaker 1: So it was easier to go with a descriptor, so

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Speaker 1: you can actually give an overview to say, well, this

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Speaker 1: is what you're seeing, this is what's possible it is,

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Speaker 1: and it's gravitating towards that. So it's basically a number

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Speaker 1: of academics have agreed with me in relation to what

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Speaker 1: I have to say, and there's other academics that went

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Speaker 1: along this line as well that said that descriptors are

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Speaker 1: a better way to go because times change and you're

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Speaker 1: locked into something, so you're.

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Speaker 2: Looking more at the behaviors and the anecdotes and the

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Speaker 2: lived reality rather than some sort of high fluding definition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because some definitions in the US locked in descriptors

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Speaker 1: and a name of the gang and clothing and tags

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Speaker 1: and all those sort of things. Now, you see a

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Speaker 1: lot of our kids, you know, the only thing that

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Speaker 1: we see with gangs now at the moment or this

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Speaker 1: gang behavior is they're all dressed in black. That's about it.

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Speaker 1: Whereas there is a uniformity in the US with types

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Speaker 1: of clothing that would wear. And in some cases these

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Speaker 1: gangs don't necessarily have a name that's sassarily as well,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're not necessary. They're shoying away from that

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Speaker 1: because that's an identity. It attracts police attention.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you've got a couple of definitions or descriptors in

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Speaker 2: your thesis, which I think is sort of useful. I'll

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Speaker 2: run this one past you. A gang is a group

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Speaker 2: of recurrently associating individuals with identifiable leadership and internal organization,

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Speaker 2: identifying with or claiming control over territory in the community,

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Speaker 2: and engaging either individually or collectively in violent or other

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Speaker 2: forms of illegal behavior. Is that a useful one?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good. But the one I came up with

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Speaker 1: is a street gang is a durable, street based group

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Speaker 1: whose members collectively exhibit unity and identity through their behavior

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Speaker 1: and criminal activity. So the other one's quite long windowed

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Speaker 1: minds two sentences. But then with that description, I then

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Speaker 1: make sure with my descriptor that each part of it

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Speaker 1: is broken down into durable, street based collective unity and

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Speaker 1: behavior and what those actually mean, so that people can't

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Speaker 1: construe their own theories about what I'm trying to say.

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Speaker 1: But the main part is a unity and criminal behavior,

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Speaker 1: and that's really what it's all about. But the unity

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Speaker 1: part of it is quite obvious. And the durability that's

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Speaker 1: another thing as well, because I say gang today, gone tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: So you've got a bunch of kids that are allegedly

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Speaker 1: a gang and then they just disappear. But it's got

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Speaker 1: to be over time. It can't be oh, they just

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Speaker 1: formed today and then suddenly the gang. They've got to

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Speaker 1: be some sort of history with that particular group that

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Speaker 1: say that they're gang. But I have this but only

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Speaker 1: as a guide to people a guide to the police

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Speaker 1: officers to make a decision about what they've got because

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Speaker 1: we have no legislation that makes an offense to be

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Speaker 1: in a gang.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've tried that areous states, These addy association laws,

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Speaker 2: mainly with the biker clubs. They really haven't worked. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've driven them underground mostly. So I mean, is that

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Speaker 2: political policing again, people trying to quell a sense of

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Speaker 2: disorder in the community rather than actually solve the problem.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I suppose that's right. But we have that situation

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Speaker 1: here where we've tried to bring our own gang legislation

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Speaker 1: in to tackle omcgs, but unfortunately with our Human Rights Charter,

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Speaker 1: or I say unfortunately, I don't mean it that way,

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Speaker 1: but it has caused a problem for us that to

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Speaker 1: bring in some of the laws they say available in Queensland.

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Speaker 1: We've tried to bring them into Victoria, but the Human

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Speaker 1: Rights Charter won't allow it, and we've worked around it,

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Speaker 1: worked around and still haven't been able to address that.

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Speaker 1: So so of our powers aren't as strong as what

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Speaker 1: they should be, or what we'd like them to be.

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Speaker 2: But can you legislate that sort of reaction? Because I've

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Speaker 2: seen most of those laws around the country get to

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Speaker 2: the High Court and they get knocked down, and often

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Speaker 2: the High Court justice says, well, listen, all the the

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Speaker 2: existing powers you need, you already have under the Crimes Act.

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Speaker 2: You should be going stronger on criminal proceeds type legislation.

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Speaker 2: You should do more about local policing. And I remember

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Speaker 2: one of the old coppers I know, Brian Francis Murphy,

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Speaker 2: he said, listen, with these biking gangs, all you need

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Speaker 2: is a local sergeant on a bicycle to go past

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Speaker 2: every week and work out what's going on. So I

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Speaker 2: think we have abdicated the streets to the gangs.

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Speaker 1: Yes, right, Look, I think I remember quite some years

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Speaker 1: ago when I was in the Organized Crimes myself of

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Speaker 1: the inspector, sat down and had a chat and looked

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Speaker 1: at the overseas situation FMG situation, and we said, look,

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Speaker 1: you know, why don't we call them in and have

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Speaker 1: a chat and we're going to do a run between

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Speaker 1: one location to another. And we know everyone talked to

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Speaker 1: West Australia how they handle it and so on, but

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Speaker 1: no one's ever sat down and just have a chat

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Speaker 1: with them. And he looked at me and he said

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Speaker 1: that's not a bad idea. So we did that and

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Speaker 1: that's how it was started. Having that, having to chat

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Speaker 1: with them. They thought well, you know, they thought, well, geez,

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Speaker 1: something's going on here. Why are you calling us in anyway?

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Speaker 1: We sat from Danny said, oh, no one's ever sat

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Speaker 1: down with us before, and well it's a good start,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. And so you get sort of one they

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Speaker 1: know you're looking at them, and two, we just want

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Speaker 1: to sort out a problem here because you're going to

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Speaker 1: cause chaos. And that's when things have developed over time.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it hasn't addressed the problem totally. But

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Speaker 1: that's sometimes we just missed the point. We should just

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Speaker 1: sit down and talk to people and say, right, how look,

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Speaker 1: warn them, address it and say well you're on notice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think getting back to that difference between definition

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Speaker 2: and descriptives is particularly apt with the bikey clubs. Yes,

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Speaker 2: where my experience was going inside that there. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: a criminal unit per se. There were people who had

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Speaker 2: criminal records in there, but you had cells within the

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Speaker 2: club that was doing business with other clubs, even some

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Speaker 2: of their real rivals. For the business was being done

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Speaker 2: sell to sell rather than the clubs being the unit

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Speaker 2: of the crime, and that to me was a big

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Speaker 2: stumbling block to do anything meaningful.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you're right, you're right, But as with anything of that,

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Speaker 1: it's for their identity to remain or to be ongoing.

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Speaker 1: Money is the factor, you know. They don't just have

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Speaker 1: club fees just like you have at a bowling club.

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Speaker 1: They have to survive, and obviously they do survive through

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Speaker 1: criminal activity. But as with anything, you know, the people

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Speaker 1: who join that are looking for a sense of friendship, family,

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Speaker 1: loyalty to themselves and to others. And what I find

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Speaker 1: though in time, if something goes astray, they get arrested,

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Speaker 1: caught up in some other activity. Well basically they're white,

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Speaker 1: so suddenly there's unity is there, But this unity is

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Speaker 1: suddenly gone. You know, Wait till you go into prison

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Speaker 1: and see how often they're coming to visit you, you know

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: It does vary from club to club, but I think

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Speaker 2: you're dead right. And I was seeing guys in there

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Speaker 2: whose decision to join was based around family breakdown, often

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Speaker 2: lack of a strong male role model, often domestic violence

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Speaker 2: against mothers. I had one guy who told me, you know,

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Speaker 2: mum was getting bashed by her husband for years until

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Speaker 2: one day at Christmas dinner he bashed her again. I

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Speaker 2: went out and got a shovel and bashed him over

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Speaker 2: the head. That was the last I saw of my family.

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Speaker 2: Then I went to jail and I met Bikey's, who

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Speaker 2: I felt were much more sturdy role models than what

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Speaker 2: I've been exposed to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's looking for something and now he's found

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Speaker 1: an answer. And that's sometimes like his and or street

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Speaker 1: gangs are looking for that loose entity that needs somewhere

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Speaker 1: to go, and suddenly they throw their arms around them

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Speaker 1: and now they've got a new member in their group,

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Speaker 1: and now you're locked in. And the only way a

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Speaker 1: lot of the times they do leave, as in that

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Speaker 1: case is possibly meets a girl as a child. Besides,

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Speaker 1: I can't keep going like this. Or I did a

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Speaker 1: job in a side, Well, this sort of life is

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Speaker 1: going to interfere with the outcome of me having this job,

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Speaker 1: and so they then straight away and then there's repercussions

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Speaker 1: with that as well, because I don't know that so much.

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Speaker 1: With street gangs, it has happened in the US and

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Speaker 1: other locations are known about Victoria, but you know with omcgs,

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Speaker 1: it is a straight away. I think there's a bit

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Speaker 1: there's a bit of an issue there with them in

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Speaker 1: relation to initiated in initiated out so to speak.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're right. I think what's happened in recent years,

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Speaker 2: particularly in response to the media moral panic about this,

347
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Speaker 2: which as I said before, has elevated the status of

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Speaker 2: these clubs to criminal gangs. We've seen clubs recruiting muscle,

349
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Speaker 2: recruiting crooks from outside their normal recruiting area, from underworld groups,

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Speaker 2: and these people get drawn in, used and spat out

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Speaker 2: the other end. And I've met a few over the

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Speaker 2: years who have had a very sobering experience about how

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Speaker 2: that goes. It's all brotherhood and love and blood loyalty

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Speaker 2: until you're in the dock by yourself, that's right.

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Speaker 1: They suddenly they disappear, And that's what happens with the kids. Basically,

356
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Speaker 1: they're looking for something that they haven't got. Sex, drugs,

357
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Speaker 1: rock and roll, you know, the whole bit. But the

358
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Speaker 1: main thing as they're looking for is some sort of

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Speaker 1: friendship and to be seen because they're not being seen otherwise.

360
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Speaker 1: And they join and then suddenly they're dragged into something

361
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,321
Speaker 1: that maybe they didn't expect to happen in the first place,

362
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Speaker 1: that they didn't know. Well, I didn't know it was

363
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Speaker 1: going to go this far, and it's too late then,

364
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Speaker 1: and unfortunately then they go into the youth training system

365
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Speaker 1: and then they're never seen a game by the rest

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Speaker 1: of the game.

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Speaker 2: That's true. Fortunately, the high level of dissatisfaction is an

368
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Speaker 2: advantage for police who in certain clubs have managed to

369
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Speaker 2: turn important members into giving evidence being informers.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's definitely right, But the hard part is trying

371
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Speaker 1: to identify who those people are, you know. But yes,

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Speaker 1: as a prime way of doing it, obviously you're getting

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Speaker 1: the inside knowledge that you haven't you would have had before.

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Speaker 2: How much did you gather from those sort of informers

375
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Speaker 2: when you were run the Asian Squad, for instance.

376
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Speaker 1: The staff I had were really really unique in the

377
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Speaker 1: way they approached their work because our role of the

378
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Speaker 1: Asian Squad. It was formed by the Asian community for

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Speaker 1: the Asian community, because they were being extorted by their

380
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Speaker 1: own people, and it was not the norm for them

381
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Speaker 1: to come forward and speak to the police because of

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Speaker 1: the fear factor from when they were in Vietnam. But

383
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Speaker 1: they trusted us so over the years a squad existed

384
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Speaker 1: for twenty one years and unfortunately under the Major Crime

385
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Speaker 1: Review within Victoria Police it was dissolved. But it was

386
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Speaker 1: one of those units that had the primary role of

387
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Speaker 1: getting out into the community and meeting with them, going

388
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Speaker 1: to all those social events. But as a result of that,

389
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Speaker 1: we built up rapport and trust and so there would

390
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Speaker 1: be an example would be a stabbing and that victim

391
00:21:00,921 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 1: is in hospital. The police attend to talk to the victim.

392
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Speaker 1: The victim's not going to tell you anything. When we

393
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Speaker 1: come along, they identify us, they know us, they build

394
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Speaker 1: up trust and we warn them so we'll handle this.

395
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Speaker 1: We don't want revenge situation to him, the repercussions, and

396
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Speaker 1: as a result of that, it's just a slow buildup

397
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Speaker 1: of trust and then leave it with us. We will

398
00:21:22,921 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: fix it. But that's why a lot of times they

399
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Speaker 1: would only speak to members of the Asian Squad. And

400
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Speaker 1: on top of that, my guys knew everyone. There was

401
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: a murder in Collingwood Flats in the high rise towers there.

402
00:21:36,561 --> 00:21:40,361
Speaker 1: Charlie Bazina came to us with pictures of three entities

403
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Speaker 1: in the lift in the elevator and we just went bang, bang,

404
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: bang and He couldn't believe it, you know, he said, well,

405
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Speaker 1: who is that person? That person's this person and that

406
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,801
Speaker 1: person there that we can't see, Well, he associates with

407
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Speaker 1: that person, so era be him, you know that sort

408
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: of stuff. It was just a really good rapport and

409
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Speaker 1: they would feel very safe coming to talk to us.

410
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Speaker 2: Yes, that's Charlie Bizen, an ex homicide and a great

411
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Speaker 2: detective in his own right. Another great police officer, the

412
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Speaker 2: late great McK miller. And I'm sure you probably started

413
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Speaker 2: your career under Mick. He used to say that police

414
00:22:11,681 --> 00:22:14,321
Speaker 2: can only work with the assent of the community. When

415
00:22:14,321 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 2: you talk about getting communities on side, that's when you

416
00:22:18,001 --> 00:22:21,001
Speaker 2: get results and trust. That's kind of lacking these days.

417
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Speaker 2: From what I can see, it.

418
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Speaker 1: Seems to be that way. I don't know why, you know, obviously,

419
00:22:27,001 --> 00:22:30,121
Speaker 1: I've been retired about three years now, but I do

420
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Speaker 1: see on social media where officers veterans are talking to

421
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:37,761
Speaker 1: each other about different things, and some of the common

422
00:22:37,761 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 1: things are is that these veterans, who you know, very

423
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Speaker 1: very vast experience, and here they're seeing crimes being committed

424
00:22:44,921 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 1: and actually reporting them. They're finding that the response to

425
00:22:48,441 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: those crimes by those officers to those walk up starts

426
00:22:52,961 --> 00:22:56,081
Speaker 1: for what of a better word, are none responsive and

427
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 1: they just start to understand, don't understand what's going on.

428
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Speaker 1: You know, you've got a cop, the most reliable witness

429
00:23:03,201 --> 00:23:06,801
Speaker 1: you could possibly haveving you a head start, and it

430
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be happening. And I mean that's not

431
00:23:09,481 --> 00:23:11,481
Speaker 1: in every case. It's not in every case, but it's

432
00:23:11,521 --> 00:23:16,121
Speaker 1: just sad that's being said sometimes. You know, I love

433
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,441
Speaker 1: vic poll you know, it was my career for forty

434
00:23:19,521 --> 00:23:23,321
Speaker 1: six years. But yeah, there are there seems to be

435
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 1: some changes and I don't understand why. It's probably unfair

436
00:23:26,921 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: to some of those people that aren't like that, but

437
00:23:29,241 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: there it just seems to be some officers are seeing

438
00:23:32,961 --> 00:23:37,041
Speaker 1: crimes and giving place a help start and it's not

439
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:37,921
Speaker 1: going anywhere.

440
00:23:38,761 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it must be frustrating to you. You're one of

441
00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 2: the most well qualified gang experts in the country. You

442
00:23:45,761 --> 00:23:48,761
Speaker 2: were at the coal face, you were advising Victoria Police

443
00:23:49,281 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 2: and do you think they could have done better with

444
00:23:52,241 --> 00:23:55,961
Speaker 2: what we're seeing today had they adopted what you were saying?

445
00:23:57,321 --> 00:24:00,160
Speaker 1: I think so. I always said when I was talking

446
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: to any members of Commander, we've got an opportunity to

447
00:24:03,481 --> 00:24:06,761
Speaker 1: get it right, because in the and following on for

448
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,081
Speaker 1: the UK, it's only grew and grew, and there were

449
00:24:11,281 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: ways to approach these things this rapid rise, but we

450
00:24:16,041 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: just didn't do it. We talked about it. They were

451
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: pushing me in twenty fifteen when I've just about finished

452
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 1: this thesis about my descriptor, you know, so they can

453
00:24:24,801 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: use that to gather intelligence and assess properly about what

454
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,441
Speaker 1: the situation is. Is it a gang or isn't it

455
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,801
Speaker 1: And that's never still hasn't been used. And you know,

456
00:24:35,921 --> 00:24:38,121
Speaker 1: along with that, in the back of my thesis, you'll

457
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,321
Speaker 1: see there's a document there which is a descriptor for

458
00:24:41,721 --> 00:24:44,760
Speaker 1: police officers on the street, a little notebook so to speak,

459
00:24:45,041 --> 00:24:47,761
Speaker 1: so you have a flick and tick. It's a prompt

460
00:24:47,801 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: sheet and on the rear of that you can then

461
00:24:49,921 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: look at that the answers you've got against the descriptor

462
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,201
Speaker 1: and say, well, possibly i've got a street gang here,

463
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: and then hand it into the sergeant and then you

464
00:24:57,561 --> 00:25:00,001
Speaker 1: gather the intelligence and work out, right, we've got to

465
00:25:00,041 --> 00:25:02,561
Speaker 1: target that particular group, or we've got to make sure

466
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,001
Speaker 1: that we have the right people in place to talk

467
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 1: with these kids. And you know, social workers. That's another

468
00:25:08,241 --> 00:25:11,001
Speaker 1: issue as well, because the way it is at the

469
00:25:11,001 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: moment is that the police have given the job of

470
00:25:13,681 --> 00:25:17,801
Speaker 1: doing everything. You know, they're they're the social worker, mental

471
00:25:17,801 --> 00:25:21,561
Speaker 1: health expert, and law enforcement. And basically what should be

472
00:25:21,561 --> 00:25:24,281
Speaker 1: happening with these kids is that they're arrested, they handed

473
00:25:24,281 --> 00:25:27,921
Speaker 1: straight to a social worker. Not weeks later after when

474
00:25:27,921 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: it comes up for court and magistrate, kids said us,

475
00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:32,521
Speaker 1: so I was this kid being nessessed yet no, Oh,

476
00:25:32,561 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: there's a further delay and a further delay, And so

477
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: it should be along those lines. Les's twenty minute hour

478
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:43,641
Speaker 1: where I were great friends. He always advocated for that.

479
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: That's the way that it should respond. There's a priest

480
00:25:46,521 --> 00:25:50,441
Speaker 1: in La father Greg Boyle, no relation, but he set

481
00:25:50,481 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: up Homeboy Industries. I visited him two or three times

482
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: in the US, and basically he had a situation where

483
00:25:56,721 --> 00:25:59,321
Speaker 1: he would bring the kids in and basically they were

484
00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:02,041
Speaker 1: looking for avenues of getting out of the gangs. But

485
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,761
Speaker 1: who do I talk to? And obviously the priest along

486
00:26:04,761 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: with social workers, basically removing tattoos, giving them a job,

487
00:26:09,561 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. You got to start somewhere.

488
00:26:12,561 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: And at the moment, it's just law enforcement responding and

489
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:19,201
Speaker 1: I'll just add to that. In two thousand and three,

490
00:26:19,241 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: there was a woman by my name, Karen McCluskey, who

491
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,041
Speaker 1: was a nurse in Glasgow and Glasgow had that point

492
00:26:25,041 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: that had the worst crime rate in Europe and it

493
00:26:29,201 --> 00:26:33,241
Speaker 1: was all based on street gangs and kids. The police there,

494
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: they brought her in to assess the situation and what

495
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: she saw. She was a nurse, pluster psychologist. She saw

496
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:42,161
Speaker 1: that the police were doing their job but no one

497
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,321
Speaker 1: else was. So all the social workers, mental health experts,

498
00:26:46,961 --> 00:26:50,241
Speaker 1: health department, all these agencies were not doing their job

499
00:26:50,681 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: and so she held them to account and so there

500
00:26:53,481 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: was pressure and pressure. Two years later, forty nine percent

501
00:26:57,241 --> 00:27:00,961
Speaker 1: drop in the crime rate based on what she was doing.

502
00:27:01,761 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: We invited her out here in twenty thirteen and she

503
00:27:04,721 --> 00:27:09,041
Speaker 1: spoke at a family violence conference about crime in Barsgow.

504
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: It was family violence plus violence as well on the street.

505
00:27:13,281 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: She spoke again in twenty thirteen and what do we

506
00:27:16,001 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: do about it? Nothing? Now, that was the response. I

507
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: even think Ross Gunther, retired Deputy Commissioner. He did an

508
00:27:25,521 --> 00:27:27,801
Speaker 1: article with John Sylvester. He talked about there should be

509
00:27:27,801 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: a summit getting together where all these groups who have

510
00:27:31,961 --> 00:27:35,281
Speaker 1: responsibilities to address this crime and work on it together.

511
00:27:36,041 --> 00:27:40,281
Speaker 1: And what happened. I think clinically he was told off

512
00:27:40,521 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: for approaching things that way. It was it was just crazy.

513
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,961
Speaker 1: It's just crazy that we are left up to doing

514
00:27:50,001 --> 00:27:52,241
Speaker 1: the job when there were so many others have got

515
00:27:52,281 --> 00:27:55,041
Speaker 1: responsibility to do that. They're their part.

516
00:27:56,481 --> 00:28:00,041
Speaker 2: Pat, I can see how it pains you to criticize

517
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: your former employees. You invested your life in Victoria Police,

518
00:28:03,441 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 2: but you can love the organization and take issue with

519
00:28:07,001 --> 00:28:10,041
Speaker 2: decisions of individuals. Yes, and I think it's great that

520
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: you're speaking out now because we have this major problem.

521
00:28:13,001 --> 00:28:16,360
Speaker 2: These gangs are brave and getting braver. We're seeing gangs

522
00:28:16,441 --> 00:28:21,681
Speaker 2: organizing confrontations inside train stations, in shopping malls. They're running

523
00:28:21,681 --> 00:28:24,801
Speaker 2: around with machetes and things. It's quite terrifying for the public.

524
00:28:25,241 --> 00:28:28,321
Speaker 2: And it just seems that the police, not just in Victoria,

525
00:28:28,321 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: but in New South Wales as well, probably all across

526
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 2: the country, they're just reactive rather than trying to address

527
00:28:33,281 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 2: the issue its source.

528
00:28:34,481 --> 00:28:38,041
Speaker 1: Yes, it appears that way, and I look at the

529
00:28:38,081 --> 00:28:40,601
Speaker 1: other side of it too. Is obviously resources as well,

530
00:28:40,641 --> 00:28:43,721
Speaker 1: and I think the police now are sort of busier

531
00:28:43,761 --> 00:28:46,201
Speaker 1: than they've ever been running from job to job. You're

532
00:28:46,281 --> 00:28:49,201
Speaker 1: just like, it's just like being a clerk. You know,

533
00:28:49,561 --> 00:28:51,481
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to that job, go to that job,

534
00:28:51,521 --> 00:28:53,561
Speaker 1: and then some stage we'll try and work out how

535
00:28:53,601 --> 00:28:57,401
Speaker 1: to address that crime. But yes, it's not the way

536
00:28:57,441 --> 00:28:59,441
Speaker 1: to operate that you have to respond all the time.

537
00:28:59,481 --> 00:29:02,281
Speaker 1: We should be trying to address it before it happens,

538
00:29:03,121 --> 00:29:06,321
Speaker 1: and unfortunately it's just the way things are at the moment.

539
00:29:06,641 --> 00:29:09,321
Speaker 2: And the political response here from the Allen government of

540
00:29:09,401 --> 00:29:13,361
Speaker 2: Victoria when they've seen a machete attacks in the shopping

541
00:29:13,401 --> 00:29:16,321
Speaker 2: center is to ban the machete And I'm thinking, well,

542
00:29:16,521 --> 00:29:19,081
Speaker 2: Bunnings is full of murder weapons, but why don't they

543
00:29:19,081 --> 00:29:20,121
Speaker 2: have switched to something else.

544
00:29:20,841 --> 00:29:25,161
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is no different than selling spray cans under eighteen.

545
00:29:25,241 --> 00:29:27,801
Speaker 1: You know, you can't buy them. You know, it's a

546
00:29:27,801 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: similar thing. And unfortunately the government with this response and

547
00:29:32,281 --> 00:29:35,241
Speaker 1: with the bail laws, we had the strongest bail laws

548
00:29:35,281 --> 00:29:37,681
Speaker 1: and then under the Andrews government we got rid of them.

549
00:29:37,801 --> 00:29:39,881
Speaker 1: And now they say we brought in these new laws.

550
00:29:40,001 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: They were not new laws. They're the old ones, the

551
00:29:42,481 --> 00:29:45,161
Speaker 1: old ones that we already had. You just brought them

552
00:29:45,161 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: back in againsted off the paperwork and said ask you

553
00:29:47,761 --> 00:29:50,121
Speaker 1: here we go, here's your laws back. But they sort

554
00:29:50,121 --> 00:29:52,761
Speaker 1: of announced it like we're a bit of chessbirding, We're

555
00:29:52,801 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: out to fix this problem. But it was just a

556
00:29:55,281 --> 00:29:57,841
Speaker 1: revolving door for a lot of the kids. It was

557
00:29:57,961 --> 00:29:58,521
Speaker 1: just a joke.

558
00:29:59,161 --> 00:30:01,841
Speaker 2: Well, and you're seeing kids now, not just in Victoria,

559
00:30:01,841 --> 00:30:05,321
Speaker 2: across the country getting bail on bail on bail, they're

560
00:30:05,361 --> 00:30:09,601
Speaker 2: getting freed. There's an attitude which is probably waning now

561
00:30:09,641 --> 00:30:12,241
Speaker 2: that once you lock a kid up, you're now locking

562
00:30:12,321 --> 00:30:15,761
Speaker 2: him into a criminal future. Is that a fair comment?

563
00:30:15,761 --> 00:30:16,201
Speaker 2: Do you think?

564
00:30:16,841 --> 00:30:19,721
Speaker 1: It's hard to say really. We mean, there's ways of

565
00:30:19,761 --> 00:30:22,361
Speaker 1: separating kids from other kids who are the problem, you know,

566
00:30:22,881 --> 00:30:25,521
Speaker 1: but that's a process within the youth justice system that

567
00:30:25,521 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: they've got to look at. But what seems to be

568
00:30:28,281 --> 00:30:30,361
Speaker 1: happening a lot of the time, you know, all these

569
00:30:30,681 --> 00:30:34,281
Speaker 1: people who are civil libertarians, which yes, they have their role,

570
00:30:34,361 --> 00:30:37,401
Speaker 1: but the point is they'll be expressing their opinion about something,

571
00:30:37,441 --> 00:30:39,201
Speaker 1: and if they actually looked at the facts and looked

572
00:30:39,201 --> 00:30:41,721
Speaker 1: at what how many kids are within the youth justice

573
00:30:41,721 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: system at the moment, There's not too many ten year

574
00:30:44,521 --> 00:30:47,081
Speaker 1: olds in there, but they keep harping on about we're

575
00:30:47,081 --> 00:30:49,281
Speaker 1: locking up all these really young kids. The ones that

576
00:30:49,641 --> 00:30:52,601
Speaker 1: they are remanding are ones that are a real risk

577
00:30:52,761 --> 00:30:57,081
Speaker 1: to the community. It's very very hard for a child

578
00:30:57,601 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: to be either remanded and or sentenced to a period

579
00:31:00,761 --> 00:31:04,681
Speaker 1: of imprisonment or custody. It's very very hard, and so

580
00:31:05,201 --> 00:31:07,761
Speaker 1: the ones that are in there, it's actually, well, we've

581
00:31:07,761 --> 00:31:11,001
Speaker 1: got no choice. We've got to protect society from these kids,

582
00:31:11,161 --> 00:31:13,401
Speaker 1: and we've got to then address the behavior of those

583
00:31:13,481 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: kids as well while they're in there, and how that

584
00:31:15,841 --> 00:31:19,201
Speaker 1: system works. I haven't got the experience there, but that's

585
00:31:19,241 --> 00:31:23,601
Speaker 1: where it's falling down. If they are then sentenced, well,

586
00:31:24,321 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: they've then got to be looked at and said, well,

587
00:31:26,361 --> 00:31:28,881
Speaker 1: how do we get this kid back to what he

588
00:31:29,041 --> 00:31:31,641
Speaker 1: or she was before they were arrested.

589
00:31:31,921 --> 00:31:33,721
Speaker 2: Well, I love also this term that we need to

590
00:31:34,281 --> 00:31:37,161
Speaker 2: rehabilitate these kids. You look at some of the backgrounds,

591
00:31:37,161 --> 00:31:40,601
Speaker 2: what they've been exposed to, family violence, all kinds of things.

592
00:31:40,841 --> 00:31:42,841
Speaker 2: You think they've never been habilitated.

593
00:31:43,401 --> 00:31:47,241
Speaker 1: No, no, sure, that's what Karen McCluskey in her research,

594
00:31:47,601 --> 00:31:50,761
Speaker 1: she was finding some of these kids who were they

595
00:31:50,801 --> 00:31:56,041
Speaker 1: were in care at foster care, but where they were

596
00:31:56,041 --> 00:31:59,161
Speaker 1: located next door, a pedophile lived, or up the street

597
00:31:59,161 --> 00:32:02,561
Speaker 1: there was another organized crime figure. So these foster parents

598
00:32:02,801 --> 00:32:05,401
Speaker 1: were basically they were looking after this kid. The kid

599
00:32:05,521 --> 00:32:07,321
Speaker 1: was in the middle of a melting pot of crime

600
00:32:07,841 --> 00:32:10,161
Speaker 1: in that area. So there was all these little things

601
00:32:10,161 --> 00:32:13,681
Speaker 1: that they should have been looking at when they're all

602
00:32:13,761 --> 00:32:18,801
Speaker 1: factors about why kids get exposed to crime, or the

603
00:32:18,841 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: foster parents weren't that good anyway, you know, although in

604
00:32:22,561 --> 00:32:25,681
Speaker 1: it for was the money, but not to help the child.

605
00:32:26,041 --> 00:32:29,001
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking earlier about the fact that lost souls

606
00:32:29,081 --> 00:32:32,121
Speaker 2: find their way into gangs and motorcycle clubs and so forth,

607
00:32:32,361 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: because there's a feeling of safety and security, and I

608
00:32:36,201 --> 00:32:40,521
Speaker 2: think that's missing from our justice system. I'm old school.

609
00:32:40,761 --> 00:32:42,401
Speaker 2: I think back to when my parents used to say,

610
00:32:42,441 --> 00:32:43,921
Speaker 2: I'm going to send you off to a reform school

611
00:32:43,921 --> 00:32:46,041
Speaker 2: if you don't start to behave and work out at school.

612
00:32:46,161 --> 00:32:48,721
Speaker 2: And I have this, maybe it's a fantasy or a dream,

613
00:32:49,041 --> 00:32:52,961
Speaker 2: that we could have a mentoring system based on prison farms,

614
00:32:53,321 --> 00:32:55,761
Speaker 2: people getting out, not just being locked up, but actually

615
00:32:55,761 --> 00:32:59,761
Speaker 2: the continuing education, working with role models, working with animals

616
00:32:59,761 --> 00:33:03,321
Speaker 2: in particular. I think that's a very civilizing influence. So

617
00:33:03,601 --> 00:33:05,721
Speaker 2: I think My view is we have to actually look

618
00:33:05,721 --> 00:33:07,921
Speaker 2: at the punishment end to see if we can steer

619
00:33:07,921 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: people in a different direction.

620
00:33:09,841 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like you said too, some of these kids

621
00:33:13,561 --> 00:33:16,801
Speaker 1: are the loose end and susceptible adjoining gangs. But some

622
00:33:16,881 --> 00:33:19,161
Speaker 1: of them they've got no choice because it's all part

623
00:33:19,201 --> 00:33:21,761
Speaker 1: of their family in the first place, and so it's

624
00:33:21,841 --> 00:33:25,001
Speaker 1: just hereditary one of a better word. It's going to

625
00:33:25,001 --> 00:33:27,561
Speaker 1: be a norm for them because that's where that's where

626
00:33:27,561 --> 00:33:30,361
Speaker 1: they live, that's what their family does, and that's what

627
00:33:30,401 --> 00:33:30,761
Speaker 1: we do.

628
00:33:31,921 --> 00:33:33,721
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the big issues I'm seeing is also

629
00:33:33,761 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 2: in the reporting of these events, particularly these aggravated burglaries

630
00:33:37,401 --> 00:33:40,961
Speaker 2: machete attacks, there's a reluctance to say what the ethnic

631
00:33:41,241 --> 00:33:45,321
Speaker 2: origin of these people are. We're shy of saying they're Africans.

632
00:33:45,641 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: And I know for a fact that a lot of

633
00:33:47,281 --> 00:33:51,521
Speaker 2: these issues are coming from Sudanese refugees, Somalians and other

634
00:33:51,801 --> 00:33:55,121
Speaker 2: in that region who've come from really war torn backgrounds,

635
00:33:55,281 --> 00:33:58,881
Speaker 2: and when the families get here, often the parents don't

636
00:33:58,881 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: assimilate very well. So this reluctance to describe again you

637
00:34:04,441 --> 00:34:09,561
Speaker 2: use that wordscribe the individuals prevents a proper discussion.

638
00:34:09,881 --> 00:34:14,961
Speaker 1: It does it doesn't. It's obvious to the public because

639
00:34:15,201 --> 00:34:19,761
Speaker 1: what ethnicity these people were that committed these crimes, because

640
00:34:19,921 --> 00:34:24,201
Speaker 1: we were exposed to so much CCTV now than ever before,

641
00:34:24,281 --> 00:34:29,001
Speaker 1: whether it be fixed cameras or people's phones filming an event,

642
00:34:29,161 --> 00:34:32,641
Speaker 1: it's just the exposures there and basically straight on it's

643
00:34:32,641 --> 00:34:35,641
Speaker 1: on our news every night. We basically see crimes just

644
00:34:35,681 --> 00:34:38,721
Speaker 1: about live, you know, or shortly after the event. We're

645
00:34:38,761 --> 00:34:41,441
Speaker 1: seeing what's happening, and we look at them and go, well,

646
00:34:41,721 --> 00:34:45,001
Speaker 1: I know what possible ethnicity that person is because they're

647
00:34:45,001 --> 00:34:49,281
Speaker 1: so tall and thin. But in other cases we can't.

648
00:34:49,321 --> 00:34:52,641
Speaker 1: But yes, there's a reluctance there, but not as much

649
00:34:52,681 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: as it used to be. Go back some years ago.

650
00:34:55,001 --> 00:34:58,721
Speaker 1: It was just we'd never say anything at all, which

651
00:34:58,761 --> 00:35:02,081
Speaker 1: is ridiculous because how does the public help us when

652
00:35:02,081 --> 00:35:04,561
Speaker 1: we don't know what we're looking for, you know, or

653
00:35:05,281 --> 00:35:08,201
Speaker 1: every ethnicity looks the same. It's not like that at all.

654
00:35:08,761 --> 00:35:10,841
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, on the other side of it, too, is

655
00:35:10,881 --> 00:35:15,281
Speaker 1: that we're stignifying every person who's that race, which is

656
00:35:15,801 --> 00:35:19,721
Speaker 1: a sad situation because it's only a small percentage that

657
00:35:19,801 --> 00:35:22,921
Speaker 1: are causing a problem, whereas the greater community aren't they

658
00:35:23,001 --> 00:35:26,281
Speaker 1: here because they want to be here. They're trying to assimilate,

659
00:35:26,601 --> 00:35:30,361
Speaker 1: and unfortunately a small few are giving them a bad name.

660
00:35:30,721 --> 00:35:33,281
Speaker 1: And with the kids, it's basically what's happened is that

661
00:35:33,841 --> 00:35:36,001
Speaker 1: mum and dad have come from these wart on countries.

662
00:35:36,761 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: But when we say that now it's been probably thirty

663
00:35:39,041 --> 00:35:41,641
Speaker 1: years they've been here now already, you know, it doesn't

664
00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:44,921
Speaker 1: seem that long. But time flies, and the first group

665
00:35:45,161 --> 00:35:48,161
Speaker 1: are happy to be here. And yes, their child may

666
00:35:48,201 --> 00:35:52,361
Speaker 1: not have a mum or a dad or either, and

667
00:35:52,401 --> 00:35:54,641
Speaker 1: so they're bringing brought up by the auntie and uncle.

668
00:35:55,121 --> 00:35:58,201
Speaker 1: But it's not that auntie and uncle and that mum

669
00:35:58,321 --> 00:36:01,481
Speaker 1: or dad that are a problem. It's the kid later

670
00:36:01,721 --> 00:36:04,401
Speaker 1: who is the second or third generation that causes a

671
00:36:04,441 --> 00:36:08,841
Speaker 1: problem because they haven't got any identity. They're trying to

672
00:36:08,881 --> 00:36:13,081
Speaker 1: be the particular race that they are, but with other

673
00:36:13,721 --> 00:36:16,161
Speaker 1: kids at school who are not of the ethnicity, and

674
00:36:16,201 --> 00:36:20,281
Speaker 1: he's trying to assimilate with them, and they're lost. But

675
00:36:20,401 --> 00:36:23,081
Speaker 1: if a group of those lost kids get together, well

676
00:36:23,121 --> 00:36:26,681
Speaker 1: they're a family now, and then unfortunately, this is what happens.

677
00:36:27,081 --> 00:36:27,881
Speaker 2: That's very true.

678
00:36:28,161 --> 00:36:30,841
Speaker 1: Having to look quite regularly across the US.

679
00:36:30,681 --> 00:36:33,841
Speaker 2: It has and this intergenerational trauma you're talking about. I

680
00:36:33,841 --> 00:36:36,601
Speaker 2: went to Rwanda after the genocide in ninety four is

681
00:36:36,881 --> 00:36:40,001
Speaker 2: just after it, and you told the stories. You saw

682
00:36:40,001 --> 00:36:42,441
Speaker 2: the evidence of hundreds of thousands of people being murdered

683
00:36:42,441 --> 00:36:46,401
Speaker 2: with machetes often and kids growing up with that memory

684
00:36:46,441 --> 00:36:49,561
Speaker 2: and their parents going through that, and you think this

685
00:36:49,721 --> 00:36:52,641
Speaker 2: cannot be a recipe for any kind of normality in

686
00:36:52,681 --> 00:36:56,081
Speaker 2: their lives. And we've seen the same thing in Southern Sudan,

687
00:36:56,161 --> 00:36:58,561
Speaker 2: We've seen it in other countries in East Africa, and

688
00:36:58,801 --> 00:37:01,841
Speaker 2: they're coming here and being dropped into our society without

689
00:37:01,961 --> 00:37:05,521
Speaker 2: much assistance. And there's probably another argument to hold another podcast,

690
00:37:05,601 --> 00:37:08,041
Speaker 2: but yeah, I think police trying to deal with that.

691
00:37:08,201 --> 00:37:10,321
Speaker 2: We go back to that question of assent and if

692
00:37:10,361 --> 00:37:13,961
Speaker 2: police are not able to build bridges with the community,

693
00:37:14,401 --> 00:37:15,641
Speaker 2: how on earth can you stop this?

694
00:37:16,601 --> 00:37:18,881
Speaker 1: That's right, I mean that was one thing with the

695
00:37:18,881 --> 00:37:22,161
Speaker 1: Asian Squad. We understood the culture. We you know, you

696
00:37:22,241 --> 00:37:24,121
Speaker 1: take the shoes off when you go in the front door.

697
00:37:24,241 --> 00:37:27,201
Speaker 1: You know, you hand them your business card with two hands,

698
00:37:27,841 --> 00:37:31,961
Speaker 1: because that's your handing them your identity. I want you

699
00:37:32,001 --> 00:37:35,041
Speaker 1: to know me. But they're the things that the street

700
00:37:35,041 --> 00:37:36,801
Speaker 1: cup needs to know, so they can get off to

701
00:37:36,841 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: a good start with anything to show respect for those

702
00:37:41,521 --> 00:37:45,841
Speaker 1: particular groups. But these kids, that sort of approach wouldn't

703
00:37:45,841 --> 00:37:48,161
Speaker 1: work with them. It's only going to work with the

704
00:37:48,241 --> 00:37:53,001
Speaker 1: mum and dad. And unfortunately, the response now too seems

705
00:37:53,001 --> 00:37:57,321
Speaker 1: to be that Vic Pohle are out there addressing ethic

706
00:37:57,361 --> 00:38:00,401
Speaker 1: based crime, but these communities seem to think that that's

707
00:38:00,441 --> 00:38:03,681
Speaker 1: the only people we're targeting, which is totally wrong. And

708
00:38:03,761 --> 00:38:06,801
Speaker 1: unfortunately that shits you should happened recently in Footscray where

709
00:38:06,841 --> 00:38:09,761
Speaker 1: that person was shot. You know, the response to that

710
00:38:09,841 --> 00:38:12,681
Speaker 1: by the community was abhorrent. You know, to go out

711
00:38:12,681 --> 00:38:16,681
Speaker 1: there the next day and protesting and making assumptions about

712
00:38:16,721 --> 00:38:20,801
Speaker 1: something that they know nothing about, and just presuming that

713
00:38:20,801 --> 00:38:24,241
Speaker 1: that's what happened, That this person was fatally shot for

714
00:38:24,361 --> 00:38:28,041
Speaker 1: no reason at all. It's just crazy. And the outcome

715
00:38:28,041 --> 00:38:31,161
Speaker 1: of that it just looked really, really bad for the community.

716
00:38:31,201 --> 00:38:34,161
Speaker 1: They didn't do themselves any favors by what they did.

717
00:38:34,801 --> 00:38:36,801
Speaker 1: And you know, I look at that and say, oh,

718
00:38:36,841 --> 00:38:39,601
Speaker 1: this was a homeless person, Well where were you? Where

719
00:38:39,721 --> 00:38:43,361
Speaker 1: was the community helping that homeless person? If they keep

720
00:38:43,401 --> 00:38:47,081
Speaker 1: calling them that that they were harmless, well that person

721
00:38:47,601 --> 00:38:50,041
Speaker 1: wasn't harmless. He was a risk to those members and

722
00:38:50,081 --> 00:38:53,721
Speaker 1: a risk to the community. Yet I just I find

723
00:38:54,081 --> 00:38:57,921
Speaker 1: sometimes we're walking on a tightrope about how we respond.

724
00:38:58,161 --> 00:39:01,041
Speaker 1: Have the big pole responds to things I keep saying, well,

725
00:39:01,081 --> 00:39:02,881
Speaker 1: because I forget that I'm lot a company.

726
00:39:05,201 --> 00:39:07,801
Speaker 2: In the blue family. You're always part of it. That's true,

727
00:39:07,881 --> 00:39:09,361
Speaker 2: but you're dead right, But you're also I mean, I

728
00:39:09,361 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: think there's an assumption that police can shoot and kill

729
00:39:13,041 --> 00:39:17,081
Speaker 2: people with abandon and I'm sure you've dealt with members

730
00:39:17,161 --> 00:39:19,281
Speaker 2: have had to be in that situation, and this does

731
00:39:19,401 --> 00:39:21,921
Speaker 2: leave a lasting impact, but it can also lead to

732
00:39:22,361 --> 00:39:26,361
Speaker 2: bitterness and rivalry and more incidence of violence.

733
00:39:26,801 --> 00:39:29,641
Speaker 1: Of course, the ken and it's just the fallout of

734
00:39:29,681 --> 00:39:32,041
Speaker 1: that as none of those members ever want to do that,

735
00:39:32,081 --> 00:39:33,961
Speaker 1: and that's the last thing in the world they want

736
00:39:34,001 --> 00:39:36,881
Speaker 1: to do. And there's all the flow on effect later,

737
00:39:37,081 --> 00:39:40,681
Speaker 1: you know, the mental trauma of what they did, the

738
00:39:40,721 --> 00:39:44,321
Speaker 1: scrutiny being held to account for what just happened. But

739
00:39:45,001 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: unfortunately the community responding the way they did, and even

740
00:39:48,521 --> 00:39:51,881
Speaker 1: one of the persons there there they are, they've got

741
00:39:52,041 --> 00:39:55,121
Speaker 1: an ankle bracelet on and they're assaulting the police, you know,

742
00:39:55,481 --> 00:39:57,481
Speaker 1: as part of that group. And you look at the

743
00:39:57,521 --> 00:40:00,401
Speaker 1: things that way, you could have done things a lot better.

744
00:40:00,721 --> 00:40:02,561
Speaker 1: You know, really, it doesn't help you at all.

745
00:40:04,001 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 2: It's very sad, entrenches the bitterness and issues. But let's

746
00:40:09,481 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: talk about rights of passage. I think that's certainly part

747
00:40:12,001 --> 00:40:15,841
Speaker 2: of what I've observed in motorcycle clubs and street gangs,

748
00:40:15,961 --> 00:40:19,161
Speaker 2: and we're seeing now on the streets of our cities

749
00:40:19,481 --> 00:40:24,521
Speaker 2: this situation where people are doing aggravated burglaries, stealing cars,

750
00:40:25,081 --> 00:40:28,521
Speaker 2: going on the freeway and daring the police to chase them,

751
00:40:28,681 --> 00:40:31,241
Speaker 2: and that's seen as part of a right of passage

752
00:40:31,281 --> 00:40:34,521
Speaker 2: towards solidarity within a group of young offenders.

753
00:40:35,721 --> 00:40:40,161
Speaker 1: It's crazy. I never lived through that. I've been involved

754
00:40:40,161 --> 00:40:43,761
Speaker 1: in New Rumorus car chases, but nothing like what I've

755
00:40:43,801 --> 00:40:47,921
Speaker 1: seen now. And I just wonder that these young people

756
00:40:48,001 --> 00:40:51,201
Speaker 1: seem to think they have nine lives. You know. It's

757
00:40:51,281 --> 00:40:53,761
Speaker 1: like watching a playing a video game where you know,

758
00:40:53,921 --> 00:40:56,161
Speaker 1: bang bang bang, I shoot. Next minute, Well, I've got

759
00:40:56,161 --> 00:40:58,281
Speaker 1: a second life and I can keep going. And it's

760
00:40:58,281 --> 00:41:00,721
Speaker 1: the same with the cars. They're ramming police cars, and

761
00:41:00,721 --> 00:41:02,801
Speaker 1: I don't know what they think is going to happen

762
00:41:02,841 --> 00:41:04,761
Speaker 1: as a result of ramming a police car that their

763
00:41:04,761 --> 00:41:07,241
Speaker 1: car going to keep going. You know, it just doesn't

764
00:41:07,681 --> 00:41:10,921
Speaker 1: make sense. And I sometimes look at things and go, well,

765
00:41:11,081 --> 00:41:14,201
Speaker 1: where do they think this is going to escalate to?

766
00:41:14,361 --> 00:41:17,401
Speaker 1: You know, what's the outcome that they think is going

767
00:41:17,441 --> 00:41:19,321
Speaker 1: to happen that they're just going to get away at

768
00:41:19,321 --> 00:41:22,681
Speaker 1: the moment, you know, the chopper is up there more

769
00:41:22,721 --> 00:41:25,201
Speaker 1: than it's ever been. It must be costing a fortune

770
00:41:25,241 --> 00:41:27,041
Speaker 1: to have it up in the air, but it's the

771
00:41:27,121 --> 00:41:30,561
Speaker 1: quickest response and the safest response to those sort of matters.

772
00:41:31,001 --> 00:41:34,361
Speaker 1: But it just seems to be a standard outcome steal

773
00:41:34,401 --> 00:41:36,601
Speaker 1: the car and get involved in the chase and ram

774
00:41:36,641 --> 00:41:40,721
Speaker 1: the police car. It just seems to be second nature. Now.

775
00:41:40,761 --> 00:41:42,641
Speaker 2: I don't know why it really is. I was talking

776
00:41:42,641 --> 00:41:44,361
Speaker 2: to one two five one sergeant is on the night

777
00:41:44,401 --> 00:41:46,561
Speaker 2: shift mostly and he says this every night, almost in

778
00:41:46,641 --> 00:41:48,961
Speaker 2: the in certain times of the year. And I have

779
00:41:49,001 --> 00:41:50,841
Speaker 2: to say that some of the police don't mind the situation.

780
00:41:50,881 --> 00:41:53,281
Speaker 2: It's pretty exciting work, you know, with the chopper up

781
00:41:53,361 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 2: and you've got the you've got the canine unit there,

782
00:41:55,481 --> 00:41:58,081
Speaker 2: you've got the critical Incident Response team as well, and

783
00:41:58,201 --> 00:42:00,921
Speaker 2: often they catch these fellas. And he said to me,

784
00:42:01,081 --> 00:42:03,001
Speaker 2: he said, one day, this is all going to be over,

785
00:42:03,161 --> 00:42:05,801
Speaker 2: you know, because I think the old it outs there

786
00:42:05,961 --> 00:42:08,841
Speaker 2: is more technology to stop these cars without having to

787
00:42:08,961 --> 00:42:12,801
Speaker 2: use stop this. I mean, we see these stopsticks with

788
00:42:12,881 --> 00:42:15,321
Speaker 2: the spikes and barbs on them to stop these cars,

789
00:42:15,521 --> 00:42:17,161
Speaker 2: and I guess what they're saying is we want to

790
00:42:17,241 --> 00:42:21,001
Speaker 2: use these to catch cars at low speed, not fast.

791
00:42:21,361 --> 00:42:23,561
Speaker 2: But I think some sort of governors on these cars

792
00:42:23,561 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: would be a better technology to stop them.

793
00:42:25,601 --> 00:42:28,801
Speaker 1: Oh, it's like a lot of responses the theft of

794
00:42:28,841 --> 00:42:32,321
Speaker 1: motor cars. You put all the micro dots within the

795
00:42:32,361 --> 00:42:34,201
Speaker 1: engine bay area, all that sort of stuff to try

796
00:42:34,201 --> 00:42:37,401
Speaker 1: and identify cars back into the days of cars being

797
00:42:37,841 --> 00:42:41,641
Speaker 1: stolen for all the other purposes, being transported overseas and

798
00:42:41,681 --> 00:42:43,761
Speaker 1: things like that. But yes, in that case, it would

799
00:42:43,761 --> 00:42:46,681
Speaker 1: be a great way just to stop the vehicle. But

800
00:42:46,921 --> 00:42:49,841
Speaker 1: at the moment, it's just a it's a standard type

801
00:42:49,921 --> 00:42:51,601
Speaker 1: vehicle as well that they want to steal. It's not

802
00:42:51,681 --> 00:42:53,841
Speaker 1: your old hold in commodore. They want to they want

803
00:42:53,841 --> 00:42:55,681
Speaker 1: to mark, and they want to BMW and they want

804
00:42:55,681 --> 00:42:59,521
Speaker 1: to outy and they're planning where those cars are located

805
00:42:59,881 --> 00:43:02,121
Speaker 1: and breaking into those homes. When I say breaking, in

806
00:43:02,561 --> 00:43:04,921
Speaker 1: a lot of the times that they're leaving the doors open,

807
00:43:05,041 --> 00:43:06,881
Speaker 1: which is I don't know how many times you have

808
00:43:06,921 --> 00:43:08,841
Speaker 1: to tell people don't do that. I know, you want

809
00:43:08,881 --> 00:43:11,561
Speaker 1: to feel comfortable in your own home and live the

810
00:43:11,601 --> 00:43:13,961
Speaker 1: way you want to live. And unfortunately times are changed

811
00:43:13,961 --> 00:43:16,041
Speaker 1: and you you've got to lock your premise.

812
00:43:16,401 --> 00:43:18,161
Speaker 2: Well you're right, and also you've got you've got homes

813
00:43:18,161 --> 00:43:19,681
Speaker 2: where and this is the way they built these days,

814
00:43:19,721 --> 00:43:22,721
Speaker 2: townhouses with the expensive outer you park and the driveway

815
00:43:22,721 --> 00:43:26,561
Speaker 2: it's it's not enclosed, and the offenders know if they

816
00:43:26,601 --> 00:43:28,561
Speaker 2: kick the door in, they'll find the keys on the

817
00:43:28,561 --> 00:43:31,321
Speaker 2: hook inside and if they go the I don't know

818
00:43:31,361 --> 00:43:34,001
Speaker 2: why outer is. I mean, I've never found the very attractive,

819
00:43:34,001 --> 00:43:36,041
Speaker 2: but they're the ones people want to steal it.

820
00:43:36,721 --> 00:43:40,081
Speaker 1: Oh the AMG Mercedes, and you know it just seems

821
00:43:40,081 --> 00:43:42,561
Speaker 1: to be the case. But then they feel they're going

822
00:43:42,561 --> 00:43:45,121
Speaker 1: to outrun the police and then outrun the dog. There's

823
00:43:45,121 --> 00:43:48,081
Speaker 1: a prime answer too. You know that the new chief

824
00:43:48,201 --> 00:43:49,961
Speaker 1: is coming in. We's come from a police force where

825
00:43:49,961 --> 00:43:52,921
Speaker 1: there's one hundred and twenty dogs in their police force

826
00:43:53,521 --> 00:43:56,641
Speaker 1: and we'd probably got half that. And I look at

827
00:43:56,641 --> 00:43:58,681
Speaker 1: it and say, well, you know the fear factor. Wise,

828
00:43:59,281 --> 00:44:01,921
Speaker 1: you let a dog loose they're going to stop. They're

829
00:44:01,961 --> 00:44:04,681
Speaker 1: worth three or four cops to tell you the truth.

830
00:44:04,601 --> 00:44:07,841
Speaker 2: They are, And you're right. Our new New Zealand Commission's

831
00:44:07,841 --> 00:44:09,721
Speaker 2: coming in they're going to have We've got fifty four

832
00:44:09,721 --> 00:44:12,161
Speaker 2: dogs in Victoria and they can't get enough of them.

833
00:44:12,161 --> 00:44:16,041
Speaker 2: They're valuable, valuable assets, and you're right. They do create

834
00:44:16,121 --> 00:44:19,201
Speaker 2: compliance in a way that the officers can't and it's safer.

835
00:44:19,281 --> 00:44:21,681
Speaker 2: Unfortunately that does put the dogs at risk, but certainly

836
00:44:21,761 --> 00:44:23,321
Speaker 2: safer for human members.

837
00:44:23,601 --> 00:44:26,681
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. But normally they hear the dog coming,

838
00:44:26,961 --> 00:44:29,841
Speaker 1: they'll throw themselves on the floor, you know, because they

839
00:44:29,841 --> 00:44:31,441
Speaker 1: don't want the outcome of being bitten.

840
00:44:31,881 --> 00:44:35,041
Speaker 2: That's right. Listen, we've painted a terrible picture of doom

841
00:44:35,081 --> 00:44:38,241
Speaker 2: and gloom here. But I think what you probably found

842
00:44:38,281 --> 00:44:42,921
Speaker 2: in your research is that this youth gang culture, if

843
00:44:42,921 --> 00:44:45,161
Speaker 2: they don't get entrenched in the criminal system, there is

844
00:44:45,201 --> 00:44:48,041
Speaker 2: a point where they can change their hearts and change

845
00:44:48,081 --> 00:44:48,641
Speaker 2: their lives.

846
00:44:48,841 --> 00:44:52,241
Speaker 1: Well, of course there is. Yeah, there's definitely that. Not

847
00:44:52,281 --> 00:44:54,721
Speaker 1: only your cliche kids were born bad. You know, they've

848
00:44:54,721 --> 00:44:57,721
Speaker 1: been born into situations that they never had any control.

849
00:44:58,601 --> 00:45:01,441
Speaker 1: There are kids that you'll probably never change, unfortunately, but

850
00:45:01,521 --> 00:45:04,841
Speaker 1: there are kids that can be saved for sure. But

851
00:45:05,081 --> 00:45:07,801
Speaker 1: the biggest way to do that is basically get on

852
00:45:07,841 --> 00:45:12,521
Speaker 1: top of all these particular gangs and address who they are,

853
00:45:12,601 --> 00:45:16,081
Speaker 1: what they are, and target them appropriately. Sometimes we think

854
00:45:16,121 --> 00:45:18,041
Speaker 1: about gangs and we think, oh, we've got to go

855
00:45:18,441 --> 00:45:22,121
Speaker 1: get the hierarchy downwards. But a lot of street gangs

856
00:45:22,121 --> 00:45:26,281
Speaker 1: don't have a hierarchical structure. They're just the person who's

857
00:45:26,281 --> 00:45:28,641
Speaker 1: a leader might be the person a leader for a

858
00:45:28,761 --> 00:45:31,961
Speaker 1: day because they have a certain skill. They step up

859
00:45:32,001 --> 00:45:34,521
Speaker 1: and fight. They're the best fighter. Well, we'll use them.

860
00:45:35,001 --> 00:45:36,921
Speaker 1: He knows how to steal a car, or use him.

861
00:45:37,001 --> 00:45:38,921
Speaker 1: He knows how to break into house. He's the leader

862
00:45:38,961 --> 00:45:41,801
Speaker 1: for the day. They don't want to be led. That's

863
00:45:41,841 --> 00:45:45,121
Speaker 1: the biggest problem. They don't want So sometimes the way

864
00:45:45,121 --> 00:45:47,281
Speaker 1: you attack things that might be a bit different with

865
00:45:47,321 --> 00:45:50,961
Speaker 1: omcgs and other organized crime, but not street kids. You've

866
00:45:50,961 --> 00:45:52,921
Speaker 1: got to take up the whole group. You can't just

867
00:45:53,121 --> 00:45:56,441
Speaker 1: take a singular entities because it's not going to make

868
00:45:56,441 --> 00:45:57,121
Speaker 1: any difference.

869
00:45:57,881 --> 00:46:00,801
Speaker 2: Okay. In a parallel universe, Victoria Police comes back and says,

870
00:46:00,801 --> 00:46:03,441
Speaker 2: Patrick Boyle, you were right, we were wrong. I want

871
00:46:03,521 --> 00:46:05,001
Speaker 2: you to come back and set up a gang squad.

872
00:46:05,281 --> 00:46:05,921
Speaker 2: What would you do.

873
00:46:07,041 --> 00:46:09,201
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it. A lot of our

874
00:46:09,241 --> 00:46:12,521
Speaker 1: gang unit is basically all Melbourne based. It's within the

875
00:46:12,561 --> 00:46:16,201
Speaker 1: crime squads, but where the crime is happening is out

876
00:46:16,241 --> 00:46:19,281
Speaker 1: in the regions. So at a regional level, which they

877
00:46:19,241 --> 00:46:21,801
Speaker 1: are I'm doing that in Southern Metro they have a

878
00:46:21,961 --> 00:46:25,001
Speaker 1: group that's targeting gangs all the time and working on

879
00:46:25,041 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: that and that's where there has to be units within

880
00:46:28,321 --> 00:46:32,961
Speaker 1: regional locations who are trained and specialized in gang activity

881
00:46:33,441 --> 00:46:36,481
Speaker 1: to get out there but also to be involved with

882
00:46:36,561 --> 00:46:39,561
Speaker 1: all the social workers as well and understand and talk

883
00:46:39,601 --> 00:46:41,401
Speaker 1: to them and say, hey, you've got this kid, got

884
00:46:41,441 --> 00:46:43,921
Speaker 1: this kid, that got this kid and send them the information,

885
00:46:44,081 --> 00:46:45,401
Speaker 1: say hey you got to go. You've got to go

886
00:46:45,441 --> 00:46:47,401
Speaker 1: and visit that kid, because it's not our role to

887
00:46:47,401 --> 00:46:50,681
Speaker 1: be visiting kids. You know that kid needs help. But

888
00:46:50,721 --> 00:46:52,761
Speaker 1: at the moment, the gang unit we have, while they're

889
00:46:52,761 --> 00:46:55,841
Speaker 1: out there doing a great job, but they're responding. Whereas

890
00:46:56,321 --> 00:46:59,201
Speaker 1: the intelligence is out there in the regions and we

891
00:46:59,321 --> 00:47:02,241
Speaker 1: need units within there to be able to solely look

892
00:47:02,281 --> 00:47:05,281
Speaker 1: at this or from a local level and then feed

893
00:47:05,321 --> 00:47:09,081
Speaker 1: that information into a central area as well, and also

894
00:47:09,441 --> 00:47:12,681
Speaker 1: make sure that what we are gathering the intelligence wise

895
00:47:12,841 --> 00:47:16,321
Speaker 1: is based on a descriptor. This is what a gang is,

896
00:47:16,801 --> 00:47:18,241
Speaker 1: this is the one, this is the game we're going

897
00:47:18,241 --> 00:47:20,081
Speaker 1: to target. But at the moment, I don't know what

898
00:47:20,121 --> 00:47:22,961
Speaker 1: air intelligence looks like and who's making a decision about

899
00:47:22,961 --> 00:47:24,961
Speaker 1: what actually is a gang if we don't have a

900
00:47:24,961 --> 00:47:27,961
Speaker 1: descriptor to go by, so you're gathering in false information.

901
00:47:28,761 --> 00:47:30,961
Speaker 2: How does the future look right now given the settings

902
00:47:31,001 --> 00:47:32,001
Speaker 2: we have in place.

903
00:47:33,481 --> 00:47:38,081
Speaker 1: Well, we're in a standstill, you know, we're not moving

904
00:47:38,081 --> 00:47:41,401
Speaker 1: forward or backward. We're responding all the time, and it's

905
00:47:41,441 --> 00:47:44,721
Speaker 1: just terrific to see it happening every night. But I

906
00:47:44,761 --> 00:47:47,121
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have all the answers at the moment because

907
00:47:47,121 --> 00:47:48,521
Speaker 1: you're sort of you know, you don't have all the

908
00:47:48,521 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: intelligence in front of you. All I'm seeing is what's

909
00:47:50,481 --> 00:47:53,401
Speaker 1: on TV. But I don't know what There's a big

910
00:47:53,401 --> 00:47:55,361
Speaker 1: difference to what you see on TV and what is

911
00:47:55,401 --> 00:47:59,481
Speaker 1: actually one our ability to address it and to a

912
00:47:59,561 --> 00:48:03,481
Speaker 1: true understanding of what is actually happening, I'm not exposed

913
00:48:03,481 --> 00:48:05,641
Speaker 1: to that anymore. I don't have the intelligence reports and

914
00:48:05,641 --> 00:48:07,001
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff that you used to see

915
00:48:07,041 --> 00:48:09,721
Speaker 1: before and be able to make an assessment correct.

916
00:48:09,961 --> 00:48:13,161
Speaker 2: I've got a mantra knowledge, courage, action. You certainly took

917
00:48:13,201 --> 00:48:15,481
Speaker 2: that path in your research, and I can see a

918
00:48:15,601 --> 00:48:18,841
Speaker 2: very useful place for a summit as you've not just

919
00:48:18,921 --> 00:48:21,001
Speaker 2: in Victoria, across the country, because I think this is

920
00:48:21,001 --> 00:48:23,281
Speaker 2: a problem in every state, probably around the world actually,

921
00:48:23,641 --> 00:48:27,201
Speaker 2: So anyway, I really thank you for sharing your experiences

922
00:48:27,361 --> 00:48:30,121
Speaker 2: in your service and continuing to advocate on this very

923
00:48:30,161 --> 00:48:34,561
Speaker 2: difficult topic which is burdened by politics and lack of resources.

924
00:48:34,841 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 2: Expediency which was one of mc miller's favorite terms. When

925
00:48:37,441 --> 00:48:40,121
Speaker 2: there was a problem, expediency won the day, he would say,

926
00:48:40,401 --> 00:48:42,601
Speaker 2: and that's what's working now. Thank you so much for

927
00:48:42,601 --> 00:48:43,081
Speaker 2: your time today.

928
00:48:43,121 --> 00:48:45,401
Speaker 1: Pat, Yes, sir, now is Adam? Thanks for asking me.

929
00:48:48,561 --> 00:48:51,281
Speaker 2: That's Pat Boyle, ex Victoria Police, one of our most

930
00:48:51,401 --> 00:48:55,201
Speaker 2: qualified specialists on street gangs. We are losing the war

931
00:48:55,281 --> 00:48:57,041
Speaker 2: right now, and it is a war for our streets.

932
00:48:57,241 --> 00:49:00,121
Speaker 2: We're losing our kids. I'd love to hear from listeners

933
00:49:00,121 --> 00:49:03,201
Speaker 2: out there who've had these experiences. What are the street

934
00:49:03,201 --> 00:49:06,841
Speaker 2: gangs in your area? What's going on? Are the police

935
00:49:06,881 --> 00:49:09,921
Speaker 2: walking the streets? Do they know who's actually out there?

936
00:49:10,201 --> 00:49:12,761
Speaker 2: We often see police officers driving around their suburbs now

937
00:49:12,801 --> 00:49:15,721
Speaker 2: with the windows up. They don't hear what's going on outside.

938
00:49:16,161 --> 00:49:18,401
Speaker 2: It's time they walk those streets again. But of course

939
00:49:19,121 --> 00:49:22,761
Speaker 2: massive resources issues there to address this has been real

940
00:49:22,801 --> 00:49:24,961
Speaker 2: crime with Adam Shann Thank you for listening. If you

941
00:49:25,001 --> 00:49:27,561
Speaker 2: have any information you want to share with me, email

942
00:49:27,641 --> 00:49:31,721
Speaker 2: me on Adam Shanned writer at gmail dot com, or

943
00:49:31,801 --> 00:49:33,681
Speaker 2: if you want to report a crime, crime Stoppers one

944
00:49:33,721 --> 00:49:37,001
Speaker 2: eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. Thanks for listening.