WEBVTT - Dezi Freeman: from family photographer to alleged cop killer

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM. Almost

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<v Speaker 1>a month after two police officers were shot and killed

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<v Speaker 1>in regional Victoria, the accused gunman, Desi Freeman, is still

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<v Speaker 1>at large. Police were going to arrest Freeman on historic

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<v Speaker 1>sex offenses at the time. Victoria police have deployed thousands

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<v Speaker 1>of officers, searched more than one hundred properties, and offered

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<v Speaker 1>the biggest reward in Victorian history, with no results so far.

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<v Speaker 1>Police have also been combing Freeman's Facebook history, which what's

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<v Speaker 1>the journey of a nature lover sharing photos of landscapes

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<v Speaker 1>and family updates to someone posting violent fantasies, calling police

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<v Speaker 1>Gestapo cowards who deserve a second Nuremberg Today. Associate editor

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<v Speaker 1>of Kriichi, Cam Wilson on what Desi Freeman's years of

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<v Speaker 1>posts reveal about how he was radicalized and whether there's

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<v Speaker 1>a pattern we can recognize before it boils over into violence.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Wednesday, September twenty four, So, Cam Desi Freeman, the

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<v Speaker 1>so called sovereign citizen who is still at large after

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<v Speaker 1>allegedly killing two police officers almost a month ago. You've

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<v Speaker 1>been looking at the trail of posts that he left

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<v Speaker 1>on social media. So as you've been doing that, what

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<v Speaker 1>were the first signs that he was becoming more interested

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<v Speaker 1>in fringe or conspiracy ideas.

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<v Speaker 2>When you look at his early stuff, it's very normal

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<v Speaker 2>for a middle aged man who's interested in nature. There's

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<v Speaker 2>photos of rural Victoria, the photos of his family. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a very normal Facebook account. And there was a sprinkling

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<v Speaker 2>always of conspiratorial narratives and kind of reactionary ideas, even

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<v Speaker 2>from early on. So I have this trove spanning, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>close to a decade of his posts, and he always

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<v Speaker 2>had a bit of a b inw his bonnet about

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<v Speaker 2>the legal system.

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<v Speaker 3>But for the most part, if you just looked.

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<v Speaker 2>At his early Facebook posts from twenty eighteen, you wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>think that there was anything out of the ordinary.

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<v Speaker 4>On Friday, Victoria Police conducted the largest ever tactical policing

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<v Speaker 4>operation in Australia's history as part of our mission to

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<v Speaker 4>find Freeman. This with incredibly rugged areas. They were crawling

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<v Speaker 4>through caves, they were traversing rivers and falls, they were

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<v Speaker 4>searching plantations and gorgeous in an effort to find Freeman.

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<v Speaker 1>The fact that Freeman still has not been caught is

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<v Speaker 1>pretty extraordinary at this point. So looking through his history,

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<v Speaker 1>what did you find out about his capacity as opposed

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<v Speaker 1>to evade authorities for this long?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, just look at his Facebook feed. You only

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<v Speaker 2>get one view of him, but you know, he's always

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<v Speaker 2>been interested in nature. He's clearly someone who was very

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<v Speaker 2>comfortable traversing Victoria's wilderness, and he had for a long

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<v Speaker 2>time and interest in doomsday prepper communities. For those who

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<v Speaker 2>are not familiar, there is and has been communities online

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<v Speaker 2>offline of people who believe that, for one reason or another,

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<v Speaker 2>that civilization will break down, or at.

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<v Speaker 3>The very least that they will decide to.

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<v Speaker 2>Weave it themselves and so figure out ways to become

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<v Speaker 2>self reliant and to be able to survive outside of civilization.

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<v Speaker 1>Does there tend to be, in your experience, much overlap

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<v Speaker 1>between doomsday preppers and sovereign citizens.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, loo's a good question. I don't have a whole

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<v Speaker 3>lot of data.

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<v Speaker 2>You can imagine that those kinds of world views align.

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<v Speaker 2>If you ask someone who believes that the law is illegitimate,

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<v Speaker 2>you might, you know, naturally, think about what alternatives that

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<v Speaker 2>you have.

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<v Speaker 3>But very often, I can say from my.

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<v Speaker 2>Experiences of the doomsday prepper communities. You know, that ultimately

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<v Speaker 2>fatalistic view of society, This idea that eventually something's going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen and it's all going to fall apart, comes

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<v Speaker 2>hand in hand with I guess, pretty negative view of

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<v Speaker 2>society that you often see with sovereign citizens.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, well, tell me more about Freeman's I suppose

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<v Speaker 1>anti authority journey online. You mentioned that quite early on

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<v Speaker 1>he was posting about the legal system, So tell me

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<v Speaker 1>a bit more about what he was actually putting out

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<v Speaker 1>there and how that progressed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so, when you look through his Facebook feed, it

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<v Speaker 2>was actually remarkable the way that there was just this

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<v Speaker 2>clear journey. He was sharing well known MRAs like men

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<v Speaker 2>rights activists.

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<v Speaker 3>Or figures who are popular with them.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, for example, he shared stuff from Sidney Watson,

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<v Speaker 2>a well known YouTuber who was talking about women pedling lies,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to abuse the family call process to get custody

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<v Speaker 2>of children.

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<v Speaker 5>If we all actually cared about the welfare of children,

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<v Speaker 5>like so many feminists and other allowed screeny people like

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<v Speaker 5>to see they do, then all sides of this would

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<v Speaker 5>be calling to rectify a justice system that destroys the

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<v Speaker 5>lives of fathers.

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<v Speaker 3>A Betina Aren't.

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<v Speaker 2>Also an Australian who was quite well known, Desi Freeman

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<v Speaker 2>was sharing her.

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<v Speaker 6>Content saying there's an epidemic of domestic violence in this

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<v Speaker 6>country is a gross deception and that utter insult to

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<v Speaker 6>the bulk of decent, safe Australian men.

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<v Speaker 2>We shared this post of Pauline Hanson talking about how

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<v Speaker 2>the family court system was inherently unfair to men and fathers.

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<v Speaker 7>We've heard about domestic violence orders brought against you know, partners.

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<v Speaker 7>That is untrue. There's lies being told. You know, people

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<v Speaker 7>have their own self interests, but it really at the

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<v Speaker 7>end of the day, is it right on the other parent?

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<v Speaker 7>Is it right for the children?

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<v Speaker 2>He also showed a kind of interesting I would say

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<v Speaker 2>conservative Christian figures. He posted about Israel Flal's conflict with

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<v Speaker 2>Robby Australia when he was sacked over his homophobic posts.

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<v Speaker 8>When you say, because I'm so inclusive, I can't include you,

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<v Speaker 8>because we're so about unity, we're going to disunite from you,

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<v Speaker 8>because we're all about tolerance, We're not going to tolerate you,

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<v Speaker 8>it doesn't.

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<v Speaker 3>Make a gram of sense.

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<v Speaker 8>What this really is about, the truth about this is

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<v Speaker 8>that they hate what he believes and they intend to

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<v Speaker 8>punish him for it.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you know, from early on he equally had

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<v Speaker 2>these politics, but it wasn't kind of all consuming. And

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<v Speaker 2>I really noticed that ramping up in the lead into

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<v Speaker 2>that summer of twenty nineteen twenty twenty, where it kind

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<v Speaker 2>of feels like that was a change for everyone. It

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<v Speaker 2>was a pretty terrible bushfire season. Desi Freeman was obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, very interesting the environment and had a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of attention to it. You know, he had a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of photographs and posts about fires, but he kind of

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<v Speaker 2>picked up on some of that climate denihilism, where he

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<v Speaker 2>would blame, for example, not man made climate change, but

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<v Speaker 2>instead he would talk about, you know, the need for

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<v Speaker 2>more backburning and why that hadn't been done. And then

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<v Speaker 2>when it came to COVID nineteen into early twenty twenty,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that really marked a big change for him.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, tell me a bit more about how much COVID

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<v Speaker 1>ramped up his beliefs, and I suppose I was soo

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<v Speaker 1>his actions.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So there's this moment in early twenty twenty where

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<v Speaker 2>his profile, which was varied up to that point, becomes

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<v Speaker 2>obsessive about one thing, which was COVID nineteen restrictions, and

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<v Speaker 2>you could see that there's just a moment in March

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty where suddenly he posts about it for the

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<v Speaker 2>first time. I think, if Ericle correctly, it's a meme

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<v Speaker 2>like that's like COVID nineteen no actually like COVID nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty four, a reference to the dystopic novel. And from there,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, not only is he posting intensely about it,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, his rhetoric, his language orly steps up, but

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<v Speaker 2>also he's just posting a lot about it. He's posting,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, many times a day and you know, every day.

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<v Speaker 3>Of the week. And from that point you see him

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<v Speaker 3>immediately cast.

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<v Speaker 2>COVID nineteen and the public health response to it as

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<v Speaker 2>a conspiracy about government control. That's when he starts to

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<v Speaker 2>then post about former Victorian Premier Dan Andrews. And then ultimately,

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<v Speaker 2>as has been and you know, while we reported, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>he would go on to file documents that would attempt

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<v Speaker 2>to try Dan Andrews for treason.

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<v Speaker 3>Ultimately that was rejected, but he immediately.

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<v Speaker 2>Showed that he had a disdain for this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>government control over his life. And then those sovereign citizen

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<v Speaker 2>or pseudo or ideas, this way of like, not only

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<v Speaker 2>do I disagree with the public health restrictions, but actually,

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<v Speaker 2>like I actually think that he's done something inherently legally wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>That was his way of almost enacting those beliefs.

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<v Speaker 1>So he showed these strong anti government beliefs. But what

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<v Speaker 1>about the police specifically, when does he start to direct

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<v Speaker 1>anger towards them and in what way?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so, police, more than anything else over that seven

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<v Speaker 2>year period was really the people who got the focus

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<v Speaker 2>of his eye. And you know, looking back is almost

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<v Speaker 2>chilling in the way that it was so obvious, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the early posts, even before things really took a turn

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<v Speaker 2>around COVID, he would accuse them of being you know,

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<v Speaker 2>corrupt or not good to their jobs.

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<v Speaker 3>In the lead up to twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>Twenty, he would share stories, for example, out police misconduct

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<v Speaker 2>that we're in the media and attached his own commentary

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<v Speaker 2>to it.

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<v Speaker 3>But that really took on a.

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<v Speaker 2>New level when they were responsible for, you know, enforcing

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<v Speaker 2>lockdowns and mask mandates and that kind of things. You

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<v Speaker 2>must produce your ID card before exercising a power. You're

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<v Speaker 2>exercising a power right by questioning, you're.

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<v Speaker 1>Going to provide your name and address, taste hel he'd

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<v Speaker 1>be humanizing them, he would be calling for ultimately violence

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<v Speaker 1>against them.

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<v Speaker 3>He shared some images.

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<v Speaker 2>Once of someone else and then once he purported of

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<v Speaker 2>his wife sustaining injuries of bruising from an interaction with police.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe that that was to do with something to

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<v Speaker 2>do with like a clash because of COVID nineteen restrictions,

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<v Speaker 2>you are unhormal and he would ultimately, you know, call

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<v Speaker 2>for the Nuremberg I against them, soference to those Nazi

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<v Speaker 2>era public trials and ultimately executions of the German officers

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<v Speaker 2>who were responsible for carrying out everything that happened in

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<v Speaker 2>Nazi Germany. You know, he was directing all of that

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<v Speaker 2>at police in a pretty extreme way.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up what we can learn from tracking Desi Freeman's

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<v Speaker 1>online journey cam Desi Freeman is not the first person

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<v Speaker 1>with this type of belief system to be accused of

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<v Speaker 1>murdering police officers in Australia. So how much overlap is

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<v Speaker 1>there between the things that he was posting and what

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<v Speaker 1>we know about the trains so Nathaniel Stacey and Gareth

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<v Speaker 1>and the types of things they believed in before they

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<v Speaker 1>murdered two police officers and their neighbor in twenty twenty two.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I said, ultimately as philosophically not that different in

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<v Speaker 2>some ways, but kind of almost from a different end.

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<v Speaker 2>I went the Wienbiller in quest. I covered the shooting

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<v Speaker 2>after it happened. Gareth Train, based on his online posts

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<v Speaker 2>his YouTube account that I discovered he was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>more again obsessed with these powerful forces.

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<v Speaker 9>A forensic psychiatrist, after analyzing diary entries, letters and text messages,

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<v Speaker 9>told the coroner of the Trains were in the grip

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<v Speaker 9>of a shared psychotic disorder.

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<v Speaker 2>He believed that he was being surveiled by the government.

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<v Speaker 2>He believed that the helicopters flying over his property at

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<v Speaker 2>times trying to spy on him.

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<v Speaker 9>The court herd Gareth Train was the dominant force. He

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<v Speaker 9>was paranoid, obsessed with guns and spooked conspiracy theories.

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<v Speaker 2>The Trains and Gareth specifically cast these polices almost like

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<v Speaker 2>a more powerful force, whereas DESI just saw them as

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the foot soldiers of a deeply unfair thing,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. He viewed the more as I guess you

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<v Speaker 2>would call it, like fascists and unfair and not like

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<v Speaker 2>a secret pot.

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<v Speaker 1>And cam to what extent should we consider people like

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<v Speaker 1>Freeman as loan actors versus part of a coherent group,

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<v Speaker 1>because police in Victoria seem to believe that he is

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<v Speaker 1>being harbored by other people right now, which seems to

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<v Speaker 1>suggest that, you know, he knows people, He has loyalty

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<v Speaker 1>from people who presumably have the same kind of belief

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<v Speaker 1>system as him.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's hard to know again without more

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<v Speaker 2>details about his life. Freeman was obviously on a property

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<v Speaker 2>with several other people, you know, like he was part

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<v Speaker 2>of a local community. He wasn't a significant figure in

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<v Speaker 2>pseudo or movements. While he did, you know, his stories

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<v Speaker 2>did gain some notoriety and he did have some connection

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<v Speaker 2>to them, it wasn't like he built up a significant following.

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<v Speaker 3>He was just one guy in it who had.

0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.520
<v Speaker 2>Clearly acted on some of it and then had that

0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.640
<v Speaker 2>interaction with police when they tried to act out that

0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.839
<v Speaker 2>warrant in late August. So to what we can tell

0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:58.480
<v Speaker 2>from based on what's been made public, While he may

0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.960
<v Speaker 2>have people who are helping him, this was not like,

0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, the coordinated activity.

0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:04.800
<v Speaker 3>Of a group. This is not a movement, the pseudo

0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:06.359
<v Speaker 3>wall movement.

0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:10.920
<v Speaker 2>That's deeply organized and working together. They are a kind

0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.360
<v Speaker 2>of broad like constellation of people who you know, have

0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.280
<v Speaker 2>some interactions, may listen to similar information sources, but are

0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.600
<v Speaker 2>ultimately on their own. These are people who, because of

0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:25.160
<v Speaker 2>their own individual circumstances and because of their own belief system,

0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.440
<v Speaker 2>ultimately decide to do something like this. And that's largely

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.240
<v Speaker 2>a very least like a kind of personal decision, and

0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.800
<v Speaker 2>that makes it so difficult to track because who knows

0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:37.240
<v Speaker 2>when that boils over for them?

0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:39.400
<v Speaker 3>And unfortunately, you know this is the kind of consequence

0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:39.880
<v Speaker 3>what it does.

0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.480
<v Speaker 1>And all of this material that you've been going through online,

0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.720
<v Speaker 1>they show how Freeman's obsessions they kind of fested over time,

0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.400
<v Speaker 1>and how he started to kind of make threats I suppose,

0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:54.760
<v Speaker 1>and he was posting sort of fantasies of violence. So

0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.320
<v Speaker 1>what should we take from looking back over someone's radicalization

0:13:59.480 --> 0:13:59.680
<v Speaker 1>like this.

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.360
<v Speaker 2>It's such a vexed problem because as someone who's paid

0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot of attention to these communities, there is a

0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:10.319
<v Speaker 2>lot of violent rhetoric that freaks me out, as you

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:11.160
<v Speaker 2>freak everyone out.

0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:12.560
<v Speaker 3>But I also know.

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.840
<v Speaker 2>That the vast majority of those people never escalate to

0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.800
<v Speaker 2>a point of violence like Freeman, did you know, like

0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.000
<v Speaker 2>the trains did, it's a very difficult from the outside

0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:24.960
<v Speaker 2>to know who is going to do it, while at

0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the same time, when you look back at these you're like,

0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:29.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm not at all surprised that someone who was saying

0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 2>these things ended up doing it.

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.800
<v Speaker 3>So I'm recently authored a book. Well, one of the

0:14:32.800 --> 0:14:33.280
<v Speaker 3>things that we.

0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Kind of understood is that you know, there are these

0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:40.920
<v Speaker 2>material influences on why people believe extreme and things or

0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.280
<v Speaker 2>conspiracy beliefs, and ultimately, I think you know, if you're

0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.080
<v Speaker 2>looking at this group of people and you don't know

0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:48.760
<v Speaker 2>which one's about to boil over, perhaps the best thing

0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.400
<v Speaker 2>to be doing is thinking about, well, how can we

0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.440
<v Speaker 2>overall decrease the group of people who feel that way?

0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 2>What are we doing to make sure these people don't

0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:58.960
<v Speaker 2>get to the point where they believe that's the only

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.920
<v Speaker 2>way out. Zie Freeman did is it's inexcusable, no matter

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.800
<v Speaker 2>what circumstances he was under like, there is no excuse

0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:06.800
<v Speaker 2>for what he had done.

0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:08.040
<v Speaker 3>But it's also.

0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 2>Worth understanding that there are circumstances that we do know

0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:14.360
<v Speaker 2>that broadly lead people to these things, and so whatever

0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 2>we can do to reduce those I think will ultimately

0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:22.120
<v Speaker 2>have some kind of beneficial effect. A man like this

0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.080
<v Speaker 2>tries to live his life off the grid, and that's

0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:30.560
<v Speaker 2>going to make tracking and understanding him difficult. I do,

0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:32.800
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately think that there is just a randomness to this

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.600
<v Speaker 2>and that's a very uncomfortable thing to have to sit with.

0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.040
<v Speaker 2>We can't track and know what's going on in everyone's mind.

0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.760
<v Speaker 2>I think that there are definitely ideas about how to

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 2>bring people back into society, but I would just say

0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.040
<v Speaker 2>just generally, like the temperature for everyone is so high,

0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:50.920
<v Speaker 2>and no doubt that's how a contribution.

0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.880
<v Speaker 1>To this well, Ken, thank you so much for your

0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:58.520
<v Speaker 1>time my persure, I thank you. You can read cam

0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Wilson's reporting on DESI Rhaman at krikey dot com dot

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:18.680
<v Speaker 1>a U. Also in the news today, Australian health experts,

0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.360
<v Speaker 1>including the Peak Body for Obstetricians and Gynecologists have condemned

0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.200
<v Speaker 1>comments from US President Donald Trump warning of paracetamol use

0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.520
<v Speaker 1>during pregnancy. President Trump has made unfounded claims that pregnant

0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.520
<v Speaker 1>women should limit their use of paracetamol, which he says

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.360
<v Speaker 1>heightens the chance of autism in a child. Australia's Medicines

0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:41.280
<v Speaker 1>regulator the Therapeutic Goods Administration reconfirmed that the drug is

0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.760
<v Speaker 1>safe for use in pregnancy, and the Trump administration's claims

0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:48.560
<v Speaker 1>have been broadly condemned as baseless and causing unnecessary fear.

0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:52.000
<v Speaker 1>And A New South Wales police officer has been charged

0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.840
<v Speaker 1>with assault over the arrest of former Green's candidate Hannah

0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.080
<v Speaker 1>Thomas during a protest in southwest Sydney in June of

0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.760
<v Speaker 1>this year. Thomas alleges she was punched by a male officer,

0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.000
<v Speaker 1>causing a serious injury to her eye, as police tried

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.120
<v Speaker 1>to arrest her for failing to comply with a move

0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.800
<v Speaker 1>on direction during a protest outside a Sydney firm reportedly

0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.879
<v Speaker 1>linked to the manufacture of components for United States fighter

0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.719
<v Speaker 1>jets used by the Israeli Defense Forces. A thirty three

0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:20.720
<v Speaker 1>year old senior constable has been issued a court attendance

0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:25.080
<v Speaker 1>for assault occasioning actual bodily hump. I'm Ruby Jones. This

0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 1>is seven am. See you tomorrow.