1 00:00:03,830 --> 00:00:05,890 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,300 --> 00:00:10,230 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. More than half of all Australians would apparently consider 3 00:00:10,230 --> 00:00:13,610 Sean Aylmer: an electric vehicle for their next car. So why then aren't 4 00:00:13,610 --> 00:00:16,910 Sean Aylmer: we seeing that reflected in sales figures? There are still a 5 00:00:16,910 --> 00:00:19,780 Sean Aylmer: lot of barriers to entry for Australian drivers, but maybe 6 00:00:19,780 --> 00:00:22,200 Sean Aylmer: the election of a new government will see some of 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,329 Sean Aylmer: those barriers come down. Tom White is the new energy 8 00:00:25,329 --> 00:00:29,560 Sean Aylmer: vehicle specialist at CarsGuide and the author of the EV Guide 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:33,699 Sean Aylmer: Report; it's an incredible snapshot of where Australia stands when 10 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:36,220 Sean Aylmer: it comes to electric vehicles. Tom, welcome to Fear and Greed. 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:37,660 Tom White: Hi, how you going? 12 00:00:38,130 --> 00:00:41,940 Sean Aylmer: So, last year EV's accounted for less than 2% of car purchases 13 00:00:41,940 --> 00:00:46,360 Sean Aylmer: in Australia. I think you put it at 1. 6%. Can we go through some 14 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,180 Sean Aylmer: of the main reasons why Australians aren't buying them? Let's 15 00:00:50,180 --> 00:00:54,340 Sean Aylmer: start with charging infrastructure. Is there not enough around? 16 00:00:54,740 --> 00:00:58,240 Tom White: Charging infrastructure is a big problem in Australia. In the 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:03,530 Tom White: report, we actually had to call up every charge provider ... 18 00:01:03,820 --> 00:01:07,459 Tom White: so that's your NRMA, your Tritium, your Tesla ... and find 19 00:01:07,459 --> 00:01:10,209 Tom White: out exactly how many chargers they have. Because right now 20 00:01:10,209 --> 00:01:14,060 Tom White: the only database of that is a crowdsourced one called PlugShare, it's an 21 00:01:14,060 --> 00:01:16,830 Tom White: app that EV drivers use to find their nearest charger. 22 00:01:16,830 --> 00:01:18,810 Tom White: But because it's crowdsourced, it's really hard to get an 23 00:01:18,810 --> 00:01:21,180 Tom White: accurate number from it. So we actually had to do 24 00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:24,390 Tom White: this original research, to call everyone up and figure out 25 00:01:24,390 --> 00:01:26,220 Tom White: where all the chargers are and how many there are. 26 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:30,009 Tom White: We found, the most interesting thing about that, was the 27 00:01:30,010 --> 00:01:32,790 Tom White: number of chargers are a function of population in the 28 00:01:32,790 --> 00:01:35,930 Tom White: states. So there are some states, like New South Wales 29 00:01:35,930 --> 00:01:38,220 Tom White: for example, which actually have quite a few charges. And 30 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,819 Tom White: some states, like the NT for example, which only has 31 00:01:40,819 --> 00:01:43,570 Tom White: seven at the time that we published the report. So 32 00:01:44,030 --> 00:01:46,640 Tom White: I think it is a big issue. One thing that 33 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:51,870 Tom White: we've come across, in our daily reviewing and analyzing of 34 00:01:51,870 --> 00:01:55,180 Tom White: electric vehicles at CarsGuide, is there are some gaps in 35 00:01:55,180 --> 00:01:57,240 Tom White: the network, even in New South Wales. And there are 36 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,810 Tom White: some places where, if a charger, for example, is out 37 00:02:00,810 --> 00:02:04,830 Tom White: of service for whatever reason, then there's a significant portion 38 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,040 Tom White: of electric vehicles on the market which won't actually make 39 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,480 Tom White: it to the next one after that. So it's a really interesting and 40 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,560 Tom White: developing space, and we're hoping to see that evolve. 41 00:02:14,090 --> 00:02:18,170 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what about recharging speed? How long does it actually take 42 00:02:18,490 --> 00:02:21,631 Sean Aylmer: to recharge a car? I presume it varies, does it? 43 00:02:21,631 --> 00:02:24,070 Tom White: It does. It depends on the car and it depends 44 00:02:24,070 --> 00:02:27,880 Tom White: on the infrastructure as well. It's something that I think 45 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,510 Tom White: a lot of buyers are intimidated by, the level of 46 00:02:30,510 --> 00:02:34,020 Tom White: information required to understand this. But a really simple way 47 00:02:34,020 --> 00:02:36,010 Tom White: to look at it is there are three levels of 48 00:02:36,010 --> 00:02:39,470 Tom White: charging. So you've got your level one charging, and that 49 00:02:39,470 --> 00:02:42,700 Tom White: covers everything from plugging it into a wall socket in 50 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:46,730 Tom White: your garage at home to a slow public charger at, 51 00:02:46,730 --> 00:02:50,560 Tom White: say, a public charging location, which might be at a 52 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,330 Tom White: Westfield for example or- 53 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,320 Sean Aylmer: Yeah, my local mall has a bunch of charging stations 54 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,210 Sean Aylmer: there, which people always park into and go and do 55 00:02:57,210 --> 00:02:58,359 Sean Aylmer: their shopping while it's charging. 56 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,169 Tom White: Exactly. So that level one charging covers that area. That's 57 00:03:03,169 --> 00:03:06,110 Tom White: up to 7.2 kilowatts. So if you've got a long- 58 00:03:06,110 --> 00:03:10,580 Tom White: range EV, for example, which can travel 400, 500 kilometers, usually the 59 00:03:10,580 --> 00:03:13,770 Tom White: batteries are in the realm of 72 kilowatts or that 60 00:03:13,770 --> 00:03:14,410 Tom White: kind of region. 61 00:03:14,550 --> 00:03:14,560 Sean Aylmer: Oh wow. Yup. 62 00:03:14,590 --> 00:03:16,730 Tom White: So if you do the maths, it takes about 10 63 00:03:16,730 --> 00:03:19,430 Tom White: hours to charge your car that way. Your next one up is 64 00:03:19,430 --> 00:03:23,329 Tom White: level two. Again, that's probably not found at home. You'd 65 00:03:23,330 --> 00:03:26,440 Tom White: need to install some pretty heavy- duty electrics at home 66 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,890 Tom White: to do that. But it's more in your public locations. 67 00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:31,250 Tom White: Uses the same set of plugs, but it will cover 68 00:03:31,250 --> 00:03:35,430 Tom White: everything from 7.2 kilowatts up to 22 kilowatts. So you 69 00:03:35,430 --> 00:03:37,950 Tom White: can start to see those charging times come way down. 70 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,470 Tom White: And a good way I like to talk about level 71 00:03:40,470 --> 00:03:43,300 Tom White: two charging is thinking about how many kilometers it might 72 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:45,950 Tom White: add per hour. So if you were to go to 73 00:03:45,950 --> 00:03:49,090 Tom White: the gym or do your grocery shop, for example, and 74 00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:50,940 Tom White: you plug into a level two charger, you might get 75 00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:55,270 Tom White: between 100 and 150 kilometers of range. That's pretty convenient. And then 76 00:03:55,270 --> 00:03:57,390 Tom White: up the top end you've got your level three, which is 77 00:03:57,390 --> 00:04:00,870 Tom White: your DC fast charging. And those are the big, expensive 78 00:04:00,870 --> 00:04:04,470 Tom White: ones that you see at prime locations. They'll cover everything 79 00:04:04,470 --> 00:04:08,040 Tom White: from 50 kilowatts to 350 kilowatts, at the top end. 80 00:04:08,050 --> 00:04:08,290 Sean Aylmer: Oh wow. 81 00:04:08,630 --> 00:04:12,100 Tom White: They require a lot of expense to install, which is 82 00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:14,190 Tom White: why you don't see many of them. And they require certain conditions 83 00:04:14,980 --> 00:04:17,160 Tom White: to be met in the environment and such so that they 84 00:04:17,310 --> 00:04:20,279 Tom White: don't create hazards. But those chargers are where you start 85 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,110 Tom White: to see charge times of 15 minutes for particular vehicles. 86 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,070 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So recharging speed is still a barrier to entry for a 87 00:04:28,070 --> 00:04:28,270 Sean Aylmer: lot of people? 88 00:04:28,980 --> 00:04:32,190 Tom White: I'd say so, definitely. I think especially people who say, " Oh, 89 00:04:32,190 --> 00:04:34,250 Tom White: I need a longer range EV," but then they look at the 90 00:04:34,250 --> 00:04:36,060 Tom White: charging time when they're charging it up at home, it 91 00:04:36,060 --> 00:04:39,779 Tom White: might be 15 hours, and they're going, " Oh, well I 92 00:04:39,779 --> 00:04:40,061 Tom White: don't want to have to think about that," you know? 93 00:04:40,061 --> 00:04:44,609 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Yeah. The third one of course is cost of vehicles. Now, I was 94 00:04:44,610 --> 00:04:48,880 Sean Aylmer: reading something recently ... it was a European piece ... which was 95 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,089 Sean Aylmer: arguing that the tipping point at which an EV is as 96 00:04:53,089 --> 00:04:56,370 Sean Aylmer: affordable as a traditional vehicle, when you take into account 97 00:04:56,589 --> 00:05:00,089 Sean Aylmer: current gas prices, when you take into account retail value, 98 00:05:00,089 --> 00:05:03,610 Sean Aylmer: all that sort of thing, depreciation, it's not that far 99 00:05:03,610 --> 00:05:07,849 Sean Aylmer: away. Is that correct? Optimistic, perhaps. Optimistic. 100 00:05:08,670 --> 00:05:12,050 Tom White: That depends on your requirements from the vehicle. As your 101 00:05:12,050 --> 00:05:15,270 Tom White: battery size goes up, so too does your price. And 102 00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:18,849 Tom White: with fuel prices fluctuating, it can be a lot or 103 00:05:18,850 --> 00:05:22,730 Tom White: it can be not as much. So I think we're 104 00:05:22,730 --> 00:05:26,610 Tom White: a way off from being price parity between an equivalent 105 00:05:26,779 --> 00:05:30,480 Tom White: combustion car and an electric car. I think, right now, 106 00:05:30,790 --> 00:05:32,589 Tom White: that's a bit of a problem. Prices do need to 107 00:05:32,589 --> 00:05:36,409 Tom White: come down. Because, as it says in the report, 87% 108 00:05:36,410 --> 00:05:40,510 Tom White: of buyers flag that as their main problem. They've got 109 00:05:40,510 --> 00:05:42,570 Tom White: the money to buy a car, and they go out 110 00:05:42,570 --> 00:05:44,990 Tom White: and they see that they can't actually afford even the most 111 00:05:44,990 --> 00:05:49,070 Tom White: basic electric cars. And some of our internal research recently 112 00:05:49,070 --> 00:05:52,450 Tom White: showed that as well. The average budget for an electric 113 00:05:52,450 --> 00:05:55,700 Tom White: car buyer is significantly higher than it is for a 114 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,609 Tom White: combustion car buyer, and yet still they're turning around at 115 00:05:58,610 --> 00:06:02,810 Tom White: dealerships because the prices are quite high. So it's something 116 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,839 Tom White: that will come down over time. But where that parity 117 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,210 Tom White: is, it's really hard to say. 118 00:06:07,910 --> 00:06:09,500 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Tom, we'll be back in a minute. 119 00:06:15,380 --> 00:06:17,980 Sean Aylmer: My guest today is Tom White, the new energy vehicle 120 00:06:17,980 --> 00:06:22,339 Sean Aylmer: specialist at CarsGuide. Now, you're talking about EVs generically though, 121 00:06:22,620 --> 00:06:24,850 Sean Aylmer: you're suggesting there's all different types. 122 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:25,010 Tom White: Mm- hmm ( affirmative). 123 00:06:26,510 --> 00:06:30,550 Sean Aylmer: And there's pure EV, there's hybrid, plug- in hybrid electric vehicle ... 124 00:06:30,550 --> 00:06:35,670 Sean Aylmer: which apparently is PHEV ... hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles. What's 125 00:06:35,670 --> 00:06:36,540 Sean Aylmer: difference between all these? 126 00:06:37,250 --> 00:06:39,670 Tom White: Yeah, that's actually a great question and something that I think trips 127 00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:42,580 Tom White: consumers up a lot as well, especially because the marketing 128 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:46,240 Tom White: around some of these EV levels can be quite confusing. 129 00:06:46,310 --> 00:06:48,810 Tom White: Manufacturers might, for example, pitch a plug- in hybrid electric 130 00:06:48,810 --> 00:06:53,390 Tom White: vehicle as an EV variant of a combustion car, which 131 00:06:53,390 --> 00:06:57,390 Tom White: can be quite confusing. So, essentially, your pure EV has no 132 00:06:57,390 --> 00:07:01,000 Tom White: engine. That's purely powered by a battery and runs using 133 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:01,770 Tom White: an electric motor. 134 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:02,279 Sean Aylmer: Right. 135 00:07:02,330 --> 00:07:05,760 Tom White: Then you've got your hybrid, which can come in multiple 136 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,010 Tom White: forms. Which is a whole thing in and of itself. 137 00:07:09,010 --> 00:07:12,010 Tom White: But, essentially, a hybrid has a motor and an electric 138 00:07:12,010 --> 00:07:15,830 Tom White: component. So it'll have a petrol engine and a way 139 00:07:15,830 --> 00:07:18,920 Tom White: to drive the wheels using electrification as well. And that's 140 00:07:20,130 --> 00:07:24,170 Tom White: your Toyota hybrids, that's what people generally understand that technology 141 00:07:24,170 --> 00:07:28,120 Tom White: to be. So a blend of the two technologies, but doesn't 142 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,570 Tom White: require a plug to charge up. It will just do 143 00:07:30,570 --> 00:07:34,440 Tom White: that using the excess power from braking or from the 144 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,920 Tom White: engine idling. Then you've got your plug- in hybrid electric 145 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,470 Tom White: vehicle, and that's where you sort of draw the line, okay, now 146 00:07:39,470 --> 00:07:42,100 Tom White: we need a plug. But plug- in hybrids also have 147 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:45,670 Tom White: an engine as well. So you're able to drive ... it's 148 00:07:45,670 --> 00:07:51,120 Tom White: usually between 30 and 100 kilometers under purely electric power. And 149 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,290 Tom White: then you've got the combustion engine as well, which will 150 00:07:53,290 --> 00:07:56,040 Tom White: take you even further. So those vehicles actually have quite 151 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,630 Tom White: a long range. And for I think some buyers in 152 00:07:58,630 --> 00:08:01,400 Tom White: Australia actually make quite a bit of sense, because if 153 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,470 Tom White: you travel using a purely hybrid mode, because they have 154 00:08:03,470 --> 00:08:07,330 Tom White: such big batteries, you can actually get the 1200, 1500 km 155 00:08:07,460 --> 00:08:10,270 Tom White: between tanks, which is pretty good really. 156 00:08:10,310 --> 00:08:10,921 Sean Aylmer: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. 157 00:08:10,921 --> 00:08:13,010 Tom White: And then the final one, as you mentioned there, is the 158 00:08:13,010 --> 00:08:17,260 Tom White: hydrogen fuel cell. This one's a bit different. Essentially, for 159 00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:22,760 Tom White: a user experience, they drive like an electric vehicle. A 160 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,330 Tom White: hydrogen fuel cell, which is like a filter, if you 161 00:08:25,330 --> 00:08:29,130 Tom White: will, sends air and hydrogen through and creates energy between 162 00:08:29,130 --> 00:08:32,809 Tom White: them, and that then provides power to drive the electric 163 00:08:32,809 --> 00:08:35,870 Tom White: motor. So, essentially, they drive like an electric vehicle. There's 164 00:08:35,870 --> 00:08:37,670 Tom White: no difference from behind the wheel. But you do need 165 00:08:37,670 --> 00:08:39,780 Tom White: to fill it up with hydrogen, which is a really 166 00:08:39,780 --> 00:08:43,300 Tom White: big problem because it's expensive infrastructure to install. But the 167 00:08:43,300 --> 00:08:45,809 Tom White: advantage is, they have really, really long ranges. 168 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,510 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. Okay. So putting all that together, why don't we 169 00:08:49,510 --> 00:08:52,730 Sean Aylmer: have more EVs in Australia? Is it because of the 170 00:08:52,730 --> 00:08:55,910 Sean Aylmer: charging infrastructure, the recharging speed, the cost of vehicles, confusion 171 00:08:55,910 --> 00:08:58,800 Sean Aylmer: over which type of vehicle that you want? Is it 172 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,439 Sean Aylmer: because some of the overseas manufacturers just aren't operating in 173 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,679 Sean Aylmer: Australia; Lucid Rivian, those things which aren't actually in Australia? What 174 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:09,069 Sean Aylmer: is it? Or is it combination of everything? 175 00:09:09,540 --> 00:09:10,780 Tom White: I think you're right there, I think it is a 176 00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:14,070 Tom White: combination of everything. With the lack of incentives in Australia 177 00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:18,370 Tom White: and our geographical challenges ... so the distances between our major 178 00:09:18,370 --> 00:09:22,189 Tom White: centers ... it's not as appealing to bring EVs to our 179 00:09:22,190 --> 00:09:24,960 Tom White: market. And only taking up 2% of the market as a 180 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,429 Tom White: result is a challenge for manufacturers to justify bringing electric 181 00:09:28,429 --> 00:09:31,360 Tom White: vehicles here. Another big one we're seeing at the moment 182 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,480 Tom White: is the fact that there's ongoing parts shortages. And that 183 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,730 Tom White: particularly affects EVs because they have so many computers in them and 184 00:09:40,970 --> 00:09:44,160 Tom White: so many electronic parts which cross over with other tech 185 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,350 Tom White: sectors, so they have to make choices about which markets 186 00:09:48,350 --> 00:09:52,809 Tom White: to bring their EVs to. Demand, globally, is really high. So, 187 00:09:53,340 --> 00:09:56,530 Tom White: Ford, for example, will have to make a choice about 188 00:09:56,700 --> 00:09:59,500 Tom White: what markets they'll send their most popular EVs to because 189 00:09:59,500 --> 00:10:02,860 Tom White: they can literally only build enough to barely meet demand 190 00:10:02,860 --> 00:10:06,550 Tom White: in most markets. And usually, because we're right- hand drive 191 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:08,830 Tom White: instead of left- hand drive, most of the world is left- 192 00:10:08,830 --> 00:10:11,199 Tom White: hand drive, we miss out on models because of that. 193 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,270 Tom White: And also, because we're on the other side of the 194 00:10:13,390 --> 00:10:17,270 Tom White: world, it makes shipping expensive and therefore cars expensive. So 195 00:10:17,620 --> 00:10:20,690 Tom White: that's having an effect as well. But it's also the 196 00:10:20,690 --> 00:10:23,970 Tom White: fact that, yes, as you said, some manufacturers, like Rivian 197 00:10:23,990 --> 00:10:28,189 Tom White: and Lucid and those emerging new age manufacturers like your 198 00:10:28,190 --> 00:10:32,500 Tom White: Teslas, are having trouble leaving their home markets for a 199 00:10:32,500 --> 00:10:33,990 Tom White: combination of those reasons. 200 00:10:34,290 --> 00:10:37,410 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So what's the role government's got to play here? 201 00:10:37,860 --> 00:10:40,210 Sean Aylmer: Particularly when you look overseas and you look at the 202 00:10:40,210 --> 00:10:44,810 Sean Aylmer: Joe Biden administration insisting that government cars be EVs by ... 203 00:10:45,050 --> 00:10:47,450 Sean Aylmer: I think it's a decades time, or thereabouts. I think 204 00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:50,620 Sean Aylmer: mid 2030s in Europe, at least half the cars sold 205 00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:53,599 Sean Aylmer: have to be EVs. I'm probably getting all this data wrong, Tom. 206 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,010 Sean Aylmer: But what role does government have? 207 00:10:56,500 --> 00:10:58,359 Tom White: No, you're in the ballpark for that. There are some 208 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,370 Tom White: rather aggressive incentives going on elsewhere in the world. A lot of that is 209 00:11:03,370 --> 00:11:06,610 Tom White: government driven. And the government does have a big role 210 00:11:06,610 --> 00:11:09,480 Tom White: to play, especially, we've seen overseas, with some really successful 211 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,220 Tom White: policies. Whether or not that includes heavy subsidies like we 212 00:11:13,220 --> 00:11:17,170 Tom White: see in places like Norway, that might not necessarily even 213 00:11:17,170 --> 00:11:19,559 Tom White: be the case. You mentioned their government fleets, that can 214 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,520 Tom White: be really important. Because when we're talking about low cost 215 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,300 Tom White: electric vehicles, one of the lowest cost electric vehicles is 216 00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:30,500 Tom White: a secondhand one. And how you stimulate that market is 217 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:34,700 Tom White: you fill government fleets with EVs, because those eventually then 218 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:37,910 Tom White: change hands and go onto a private owner. So that's 219 00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:40,620 Tom White: actually a really positive move the government can take. It 220 00:11:40,620 --> 00:11:42,910 Tom White: needs the vehicles anyway. It's got the money to buy 221 00:11:42,910 --> 00:11:46,230 Tom White: them. Why not fill your fleets with those EVs, where 222 00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:48,590 Tom White: they're actually really well- suited to a lot of government 223 00:11:48,740 --> 00:11:52,380 Tom White: tasks as well, whether it's faring people around cities or 224 00:11:52,380 --> 00:11:55,270 Tom White: acting as council vehicles as well? That's a really positive 225 00:11:55,270 --> 00:11:58,760 Tom White: step governments can take. Subsidies are good, but removal of 226 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,950 Tom White: taxes seems to be the preferred method in Australia. Obviously, 227 00:12:03,140 --> 00:12:07,439 Tom White: we've seen quite a few states now introduce that $3,000 or $3, 500 228 00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:13,270 Tom White: rebate, WA being one of the most recent ones. With the unfortunate 229 00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:15,929 Tom White: part of that being they still want to tax them. 230 00:12:15,929 --> 00:12:19,160 Tom White: So you get $ 3, 500 rebate and then you have 231 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,040 Tom White: to pay almost that in stamp duty just to have 232 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,520 Tom White: the vehicle back. So really, it's a break- even equation. 233 00:12:23,950 --> 00:12:24,020 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 234 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,150 Tom White: But I think there can be more done for infrastructure 235 00:12:27,150 --> 00:12:30,559 Tom White: as well, because that's expensive to install. And for private 236 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:34,469 Tom White: industry, this early on in the rollout of electric vehicles 237 00:12:34,470 --> 00:12:37,880 Tom White: in Australia, it might not be profitable to put chargers 238 00:12:38,250 --> 00:12:40,440 Tom White: in certain places. But you need them so that people see 239 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,429 Tom White: them and say, " I can charge my electric vehicle there. 240 00:12:42,429 --> 00:12:45,190 Tom White: I'm going to buy one." So the government needs to 241 00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:48,360 Tom White: help out doing that. And to even the previous government's 242 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,300 Tom White: credit, they have been doing that with the Future Fuels 243 00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:54,630 Tom White: and ARENA funding, which has rolled out quite a few 244 00:12:54,630 --> 00:12:58,640 Tom White: chargers along the east coast. And the Labor government's policy 245 00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:02,080 Tom White: is to double that fund and install quite a few 246 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:02,830 Tom White: more chargers. 247 00:13:03,290 --> 00:13:05,890 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Final question, Tom: where will we be in a 248 00:13:05,890 --> 00:13:08,910 Sean Aylmer: decades time in the EV market in Australia? 249 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,900 Tom White: Where will we be in a decades time? That's really 250 00:13:10,900 --> 00:13:14,809 Tom White: interesting. I think EVs will make up a significant proportion 251 00:13:15,309 --> 00:13:19,740 Tom White: of our sales mix. And I think you'll see the 252 00:13:19,740 --> 00:13:24,360 Tom White: introduction of hydrogen, particularly at a commercial vehicle level, because 253 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,530 Tom White: that's where that technology makes the most sense. 254 00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:28,510 Sean Aylmer: Yep. Heavy trucks, that sort of thing? 255 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:34,010 Tom White: Yeah, that's right. And that's because of the lightness of that drivetrain technology, it makes 256 00:13:34,010 --> 00:13:36,400 Tom White: it so truck drivers can have a long range and 257 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,770 Tom White: carry a big load. Well, I think we'll see an 258 00:13:38,770 --> 00:13:42,179 Tom White: evolution of that, particularly just because of our long geography between 259 00:13:42,179 --> 00:13:45,429 Tom White: cities, you need a alternate method to do that. And that will 260 00:13:45,429 --> 00:13:49,580 Tom White: trickle down to passenger vehicles as well. As these supply 261 00:13:49,580 --> 00:13:53,210 Tom White: issues start to sort themselves out it means we'll see 262 00:13:53,210 --> 00:13:55,970 Tom White: a lot more models become available to our market. And 263 00:13:56,190 --> 00:13:58,490 Tom White: with battery technology evolving the way it is, the price 264 00:13:58,490 --> 00:14:01,130 Tom White: will come down. How much, I can't tell you. But 265 00:14:01,170 --> 00:14:04,809 Tom White: it will eventually come down. And all of that will 266 00:14:04,809 --> 00:14:09,809 Tom White: help create a more stable marketplace for EVs in Australia, and 267 00:14:09,809 --> 00:14:12,319 Tom White: one in which people will be keen to hop out 268 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:13,100 Tom White: and buy their first EV. 269 00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:15,530 Sean Aylmer: Hope so. Tom, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 270 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:17,080 Tom White: No problem. Thank you. 271 00:14:17,290 --> 00:14:19,810 Sean Aylmer: That was Tom White, the new energy vehicle specialist at 272 00:14:19,810 --> 00:14:23,120 Sean Aylmer: CarsGuide. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. Join us every 273 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,630 Sean Aylmer: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, Australia's 274 00:14:25,630 --> 00:14:29,360 Sean Aylmer: most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.