1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appoche Production. 2 00:00:10,801 --> 00:00:14,521 Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Brave Always the CEO series. 3 00:00:14,721 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: This series, we launch into the new world of brave leadership. 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,001 Speaker 1: Happy people create happy businesses, true emotionally intelligent leadership. 5 00:00:23,041 --> 00:00:25,441 Speaker 2: I've picked up vomit once on our about our fourth flight, 6 00:00:25,681 --> 00:00:27,601 Speaker 2: and everybody thought, well, if it's good enough for him, 7 00:00:27,721 --> 00:00:28,441 Speaker 2: I can do it now. 8 00:00:28,521 --> 00:00:31,121 Speaker 1: We will be joined by culture and leadership. 9 00:00:30,721 --> 00:00:35,121 Speaker 2: Experts and some superstar CEOs who will courageously tell us 10 00:00:35,161 --> 00:00:38,801 Speaker 2: the truth behind their brave leadership journeys. Today I am 11 00:00:38,881 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: joined by CEO of Healthy Land and Water, Julie McClellan. 12 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: Healthy Land and Water is the peak environmental group for 13 00:00:45,361 --> 00:00:48,441 Speaker 2: Southeast Queensland. For over twenty years, it's been dedicated to 14 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,281 Speaker 2: investing in and leading initiatives to build the prosperity, livability 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,641 Speaker 2: and sustainability of our future region. Julie has held this 16 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,281 Speaker 2: role since its inception in twenty thirteen. As an accomplished 17 00:00:59,321 --> 00:01:02,441 Speaker 2: executive with significant leadership and general management experience. 18 00:01:02,881 --> 00:01:04,001 Speaker 1: She has over eleven. 19 00:01:03,761 --> 00:01:06,761 Speaker 2: Years as CEO with a focus on creating profit for purpose. 20 00:01:07,281 --> 00:01:11,641 Speaker 2: An expert in waterway management, governance, strategy, risk and company finance. 21 00:01:12,121 --> 00:01:14,241 Speaker 2: Prior to a role at Healthy Land, and water. Julie 22 00:01:14,241 --> 00:01:17,881 Speaker 2: held senior executive positions in local government spanning nearly thirty years, 23 00:01:18,161 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: and was responsible for portfolios including research and business development, innovation, 24 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,161 Speaker 2: service delivery, and design. 25 00:01:24,601 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: Welcome, Julie, Thanks you to have you in the studio now. Julie. 26 00:01:27,681 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 2: One of the first things I read about you, because 27 00:01:29,601 --> 00:01:31,881 Speaker 2: I always do my little bit of digging in research, 28 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: was around your core values, which, as I read you 29 00:01:35,881 --> 00:01:41,241 Speaker 2: define as honesty, trust, justice, and humor. Have these been 30 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,881 Speaker 2: core values of yours since you were young and why 31 00:01:43,961 --> 00:01:45,121 Speaker 2: they're so important to you? 32 00:01:45,161 --> 00:01:49,521 Speaker 1: Definitely? Humor and natural justice have been very strong values 33 00:01:49,561 --> 00:01:51,641 Speaker 1: of mine since I was young. I've always been one 34 00:01:51,681 --> 00:01:53,721 Speaker 1: to go in and fight for someone else, probably to 35 00:01:53,801 --> 00:01:57,921 Speaker 1: my detriment on many occasions. Okay, but yeah, It's definitely 36 00:01:57,961 --> 00:02:01,321 Speaker 1: been part of my core values. Absolutely, and I've always 37 00:02:01,361 --> 00:02:04,561 Speaker 1: been probably too honest, probably for my own good coming 38 00:02:04,601 --> 00:02:06,881 Speaker 1: up through my career. But okay, Yeah. 39 00:02:07,001 --> 00:02:08,601 Speaker 2: Is there a moment that you sort of sticks out 40 00:02:08,601 --> 00:02:10,481 Speaker 2: to you when you think that, well, it's probably a 41 00:02:10,521 --> 00:02:11,081 Speaker 2: mixture of. 42 00:02:11,281 --> 00:02:13,361 Speaker 1: If I think about it now, when I talk about 43 00:02:13,441 --> 00:02:18,001 Speaker 1: natural justice and it's defending other people. I can't stand bullies, 44 00:02:18,161 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: and so I'll take them on. I've never been bullied 45 00:02:21,921 --> 00:02:25,881 Speaker 1: at school because I just don't give them airtime, you know. 46 00:02:26,041 --> 00:02:28,681 Speaker 1: So if I see other people being bullied, yeah, very 47 00:02:28,761 --> 00:02:31,201 Speaker 1: strong values there, like I'll take them on. Yeah, I 48 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: love that. And so does that sort of follow through 49 00:02:33,161 --> 00:02:33,321 Speaker 1: for you? 50 00:02:33,401 --> 00:02:35,361 Speaker 2: Now? I guess at work, like, how does that play 51 00:02:35,361 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 2: into not tolerating that kind of behavior at work? 52 00:02:38,041 --> 00:02:40,801 Speaker 1: You lead from the top, right, so what people see 53 00:02:41,201 --> 00:02:45,121 Speaker 1: is generally what in my experience, people will follow. So 54 00:02:45,281 --> 00:02:48,481 Speaker 1: I don't tolerate it at all in the workplace. I 55 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,281 Speaker 1: grew up all around the world and I moved. I 56 00:02:51,321 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 1: think by the time I was in grade eleven, I'd 57 00:02:53,841 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: been to twelve or thirteen different schools, so we were 58 00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,881 Speaker 1: never in one place for more than a year as 59 00:02:59,921 --> 00:03:02,361 Speaker 1: a kid. So you have to go in and make 60 00:03:03,161 --> 00:03:07,241 Speaker 1: new friends very quickly. You got to rely on your humor, right, yeahha, 61 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:08,081 Speaker 1: it makes sense. 62 00:03:08,161 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so God, there's a lot of moving around. 63 00:03:10,321 --> 00:03:12,161 Speaker 1: It was a lot of moving around. Can I ask 64 00:03:12,201 --> 00:03:16,201 Speaker 1: why was that? Dad engineer? We were the original ten 65 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,441 Speaker 1: pound poms, you know. But we went to South Africa 66 00:03:18,841 --> 00:03:21,441 Speaker 1: and they worked on power stations, and so you do 67 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,961 Speaker 1: a year or so and then move and it was 68 00:03:24,081 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: just a very dynamic environment. We just kept moving a lot. 69 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,921 Speaker 1: You spent a lot of time in South Africa. Yeah, yeah, ah, 70 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:35,041 Speaker 1: how was that? Well? I loved it, but in hindsight, 71 00:03:35,081 --> 00:03:37,801 Speaker 1: I mean that's when apartheid, yeah, was in and again 72 00:03:37,881 --> 00:03:41,441 Speaker 1: I could never understand why you would have a white 73 00:03:41,801 --> 00:03:43,001 Speaker 1: bench and a black bench. 74 00:03:43,001 --> 00:03:43,041 Speaker 2: It. 75 00:03:43,281 --> 00:03:45,281 Speaker 1: I just couldn't fathom it. So and then we went 76 00:03:45,361 --> 00:03:46,601 Speaker 1: back to the UK, and then we came out to 77 00:03:46,601 --> 00:03:48,521 Speaker 1: Australia and moved around Australia a bit too. 78 00:03:48,641 --> 00:03:50,441 Speaker 2: I'm seeing some synergies here now with some stuff I've 79 00:03:50,441 --> 00:03:52,961 Speaker 2: read about your involvement and things like the rap that 80 00:03:53,001 --> 00:03:55,401 Speaker 2: you guys have done as well, So experiencing that at 81 00:03:55,441 --> 00:03:57,881 Speaker 2: a young age, like and then coming back to Australia, like, 82 00:03:57,881 --> 00:04:01,241 Speaker 2: how is it influenced I guess your passion around culture 83 00:04:01,321 --> 00:04:02,041 Speaker 2: and diversity. 84 00:04:02,441 --> 00:04:05,601 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I probably never dwelled on 85 00:04:05,641 --> 00:04:08,881 Speaker 1: it because it was just one of those parts of 86 00:04:08,881 --> 00:04:11,201 Speaker 1: my life where I just couldn't understand. I mean I 87 00:04:11,201 --> 00:04:13,961 Speaker 1: was a kid, right, and it just defied logic to me, 88 00:04:14,241 --> 00:04:16,881 Speaker 1: of course, that the color of your skin can determine 89 00:04:16,921 --> 00:04:20,241 Speaker 1: who you are and what your role is in society. 90 00:04:20,601 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: And you know, apparently you're not smart or it's just 91 00:04:24,041 --> 00:04:27,241 Speaker 1: never I've never understood it. And when we went back 92 00:04:27,241 --> 00:04:30,601 Speaker 1: to the UK, my mum was very adamant that we 93 00:04:30,641 --> 00:04:34,241 Speaker 1: didn't embrace apartheid, right, so even though she were white 94 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,081 Speaker 1: and we're English, and yes we had staff, but they 95 00:04:38,121 --> 00:04:40,681 Speaker 1: were part of the family. My brother was brought up 96 00:04:40,761 --> 00:04:43,881 Speaker 1: by nanny right because mum was working, so they were 97 00:04:43,961 --> 00:04:46,321 Speaker 1: very much part of our family. We never saw I 98 00:04:46,361 --> 00:04:48,841 Speaker 1: didn't see them as employees. They lived with us, and 99 00:04:48,921 --> 00:04:51,481 Speaker 1: that was it. We went back to the UK and 100 00:04:51,681 --> 00:04:54,801 Speaker 1: it's fine obviously that it's quite a mixed race in England. 101 00:04:55,361 --> 00:04:57,881 Speaker 1: And my mum took my sister to the doctor. Now 102 00:04:57,921 --> 00:05:00,961 Speaker 1: my sister's five years younger than me, and the doctor 103 00:05:01,081 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: was a black doctor and Mom went in, took her 104 00:05:04,481 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: in't think much of it, and my sister turned around 105 00:05:06,641 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: to my mum and she said, she can't be a doctor, 106 00:05:08,681 --> 00:05:14,281 Speaker 1: she's black. My mum was mortified. So my sister had 107 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,041 Speaker 1: been quite impacted, and Mom said, well she's a doctor 108 00:05:18,361 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: and we are staying. And Mom's just like, I'm so sorry, 109 00:05:21,201 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: like she said, I didn't realize my daughter was like this, 110 00:05:23,161 --> 00:05:26,441 Speaker 1: you know, And it was an interesting yeah, I know. 111 00:05:26,361 --> 00:05:28,801 Speaker 2: That you're very passionate about that space. And so you 112 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,521 Speaker 2: guys have launched a wrap yes where you're at And 113 00:05:31,561 --> 00:05:33,401 Speaker 2: I think that when I read that and then I 114 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,241 Speaker 2: hear that's where you grew up, there would have been 115 00:05:35,281 --> 00:05:37,561 Speaker 2: some impact. I'm sure, whether you picked up on it 116 00:05:37,681 --> 00:05:41,681 Speaker 2: or not, right, that's right, wanting to subconscious yeah, subconscious, yeah, absolutely. 117 00:05:41,721 --> 00:05:44,801 Speaker 2: I mean we are defined by every event in our life, right, 118 00:05:45,041 --> 00:05:47,761 Speaker 2: So only because you've asked me that question, that's made 119 00:05:47,801 --> 00:05:50,241 Speaker 2: me think, well, obviously that did define me. Yeah, I 120 00:05:50,241 --> 00:05:52,361 Speaker 2: think you know, for me, it's that adversity, right that 121 00:05:52,401 --> 00:05:55,001 Speaker 2: you face as a young person, and you've just did 122 00:05:55,081 --> 00:05:57,721 Speaker 2: changing many of my schools, living in very very different cultures, 123 00:05:58,241 --> 00:05:59,601 Speaker 2: experiencing different parenting. 124 00:06:00,201 --> 00:06:02,001 Speaker 1: You know, that does change somebody. 125 00:06:02,041 --> 00:06:04,481 Speaker 2: And I think that from what I've seen, a lot 126 00:06:04,521 --> 00:06:08,241 Speaker 2: of the most sort of empathetic CEOs have that story 127 00:06:08,281 --> 00:06:11,041 Speaker 2: of adversity where they've had to kind of rise above 128 00:06:11,081 --> 00:06:13,681 Speaker 2: it or work through it. So I will come to 129 00:06:13,761 --> 00:06:15,161 Speaker 2: resilience because it's a big one for me in my 130 00:06:15,201 --> 00:06:17,521 Speaker 2: brave But I wanted to just touch on the trust 131 00:06:17,601 --> 00:06:19,601 Speaker 2: part of the value that you mentioned, right, because I 132 00:06:19,601 --> 00:06:21,841 Speaker 2: love that trust. Isn't there right any foundation of any 133 00:06:21,841 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: good team. I'm kind of fascinated in this idea of 134 00:06:24,641 --> 00:06:27,481 Speaker 2: fast tracking trust, Like I'm always looking for almost like 135 00:06:27,721 --> 00:06:30,841 Speaker 2: hacks of how can you get trust as quickly as possible? Right? 136 00:06:30,921 --> 00:06:33,001 Speaker 2: That is where you can get more out of people. So, 137 00:06:33,601 --> 00:06:36,241 Speaker 2: given it's one of your values, what's your approach to 138 00:06:36,241 --> 00:06:38,201 Speaker 2: building trust with people? Like, do you have an approach 139 00:06:38,281 --> 00:06:39,161 Speaker 2: like to do it quickly? 140 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,121 Speaker 1: Or you know, if you look at my values, then honesty. 141 00:06:42,361 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: So I think if you're honest, you will build trust. 142 00:06:45,001 --> 00:06:47,041 Speaker 1: What you see is what you get. I have no 143 00:06:47,161 --> 00:06:49,561 Speaker 1: hidden agenda. Yeah, I can play the game if I 144 00:06:49,601 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: have to. I'm still kind of full frontal, you know, 145 00:06:52,201 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: what's the point like really pissing around? Like seriously, you 146 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,801 Speaker 1: can waste so much energy. So if you're going to 147 00:06:57,841 --> 00:07:01,601 Speaker 1: build trust, you build it quick and fast. However, the 148 00:07:01,601 --> 00:07:04,041 Speaker 1: flip side of that, if I don't trust you or 149 00:07:04,041 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: you don't trust me, then just move on. If you 150 00:07:06,361 --> 00:07:08,921 Speaker 1: don't connect and you're not going to work, give you 151 00:07:08,921 --> 00:07:11,241 Speaker 1: would give trust upfront person versus you have to don it. 152 00:07:11,401 --> 00:07:14,841 Speaker 2: Yeah, I am until you abuse that trust, yeah, I 153 00:07:14,921 --> 00:07:17,241 Speaker 2: shut down. But I hardly agree that approach. I think 154 00:07:17,241 --> 00:07:18,801 Speaker 2: it's the faster way to go about them waiting for 155 00:07:18,801 --> 00:07:21,041 Speaker 2: everyone to earn it. So, obviously, as you've listened to 156 00:07:21,121 --> 00:07:23,001 Speaker 2: some of the podcasts, I do interview a lot of 157 00:07:23,121 --> 00:07:26,001 Speaker 2: female CEOs and pretty much every single one of them 158 00:07:26,041 --> 00:07:28,201 Speaker 2: has had to face some kind of challenge to get 159 00:07:28,241 --> 00:07:32,961 Speaker 2: where they are, particularly being a female, right all of them. So, 160 00:07:33,081 --> 00:07:35,361 Speaker 2: what has been your greatest challenge in being a female 161 00:07:35,401 --> 00:07:37,681 Speaker 2: leader or getting to where you've gotten order to teach you? 162 00:07:38,241 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: So, if you think about how long I've been working therefore, 163 00:07:42,081 --> 00:07:44,761 Speaker 1: you know, obviously I was coming up in the eighties 164 00:07:45,361 --> 00:07:48,161 Speaker 1: and starting my career. That was tough. I worked in 165 00:07:48,201 --> 00:07:52,401 Speaker 1: the mining industry initially, I'm a chemist, industrial chemist. As 166 00:07:52,441 --> 00:07:54,521 Speaker 1: I came up through my career, I was often seen 167 00:07:54,561 --> 00:07:57,801 Speaker 1: as the token woman and you really shouldn't have a voice. 168 00:07:58,161 --> 00:08:00,001 Speaker 1: They say that. That doesn't rest too well with me. 169 00:08:00,281 --> 00:08:02,121 Speaker 1: I didn't believe I was a token woman. I thought 170 00:08:02,161 --> 00:08:05,201 Speaker 1: I'd earned my right to be at that table. These 171 00:08:05,241 --> 00:08:07,561 Speaker 1: other conversations that happened before you get in the room. 172 00:08:07,601 --> 00:08:09,121 Speaker 1: So you get in the room and you're like, right, 173 00:08:09,161 --> 00:08:11,241 Speaker 1: they're gonna value what I have to say. Obviously I'm 174 00:08:11,241 --> 00:08:13,761 Speaker 1: here for that, And it's gone off on a completely 175 00:08:13,761 --> 00:08:15,681 Speaker 1: different tangent you're sort of like, that's not what this 176 00:08:15,761 --> 00:08:18,761 Speaker 1: agenda was about. It was a very tough boys club 177 00:08:19,081 --> 00:08:21,961 Speaker 1: you were there for probably looks. I've run out of 178 00:08:21,961 --> 00:08:25,001 Speaker 1: fingers to count how many times I've been asked someone 179 00:08:25,121 --> 00:08:27,121 Speaker 1: or just say, well, should we here just have sex? Oh? 180 00:08:27,761 --> 00:08:30,401 Speaker 2: No, yeah no, And I'm like, sorry, I was not 181 00:08:30,481 --> 00:08:31,401 Speaker 2: expecting you to say that. 182 00:08:31,721 --> 00:08:35,201 Speaker 1: Really, how did you push through that? It's an interesting 183 00:08:35,281 --> 00:08:37,961 Speaker 1: question because I just in my mind was just like, 184 00:08:38,121 --> 00:08:38,641 Speaker 1: fuck off. 185 00:08:39,281 --> 00:08:41,561 Speaker 2: There have been times in my career where I know 186 00:08:41,641 --> 00:08:44,121 Speaker 2: I was spoken to in a way that was inappropriate. 187 00:08:44,721 --> 00:08:48,001 Speaker 2: On reflection, now, being older, I've gone whoa like, I 188 00:08:48,081 --> 00:08:51,361 Speaker 2: would not accept that now, Whereas my approach when I 189 00:08:51,401 --> 00:08:54,081 Speaker 2: was younger and coming up the ranks was to almost 190 00:08:54,121 --> 00:08:56,481 Speaker 2: use humor and laugh it off, and I would tell 191 00:08:56,521 --> 00:09:00,161 Speaker 2: people I don't care that much. But as I get older, 192 00:09:00,441 --> 00:09:02,521 Speaker 2: I wonder if that was actually the truth, or was 193 00:09:02,561 --> 00:09:04,521 Speaker 2: that that didn't know how to deal with it. 194 00:09:05,041 --> 00:09:06,561 Speaker 1: It's probably a bit of both, right, Like, I mean, 195 00:09:06,601 --> 00:09:08,641 Speaker 1: you don't know how to deal with it. But it's 196 00:09:08,681 --> 00:09:11,401 Speaker 1: interesting because I talked to other colleagues of mine my 197 00:09:11,521 --> 00:09:14,441 Speaker 1: sort of age, you know, late fifties, early sixties, and 198 00:09:14,561 --> 00:09:18,401 Speaker 1: there's not one that hasn't had an experience like that 199 00:09:18,881 --> 00:09:21,721 Speaker 1: when I first started, even with Brisbane Water. So this 200 00:09:21,761 --> 00:09:25,681 Speaker 1: is here, the sewage treatment plants, women didn't go on them. 201 00:09:25,681 --> 00:09:27,881 Speaker 1: There were no female toilets on some of the old ones, 202 00:09:28,321 --> 00:09:30,481 Speaker 1: so you'd have to go to the men's toilet, and 203 00:09:30,521 --> 00:09:32,921 Speaker 1: boy did you feel intimidated with the posters on the wall? 204 00:09:33,001 --> 00:09:36,161 Speaker 2: Right, And that was the late eighties, But it doesn't 205 00:09:36,161 --> 00:09:38,041 Speaker 2: think it speaks a lot to the fact that I've 206 00:09:38,041 --> 00:09:40,441 Speaker 2: had this conversation with few people where I see women 207 00:09:40,681 --> 00:09:43,041 Speaker 2: going up the ranks and leadership roles having to adopt 208 00:09:43,161 --> 00:09:45,521 Speaker 2: more masculine style in order to survive right or to 209 00:09:45,521 --> 00:09:48,321 Speaker 2: be taken seriously. Well, I can see why, yeah, because 210 00:09:48,561 --> 00:09:51,001 Speaker 2: using your feminine side in those moments pre didn't serve 211 00:09:51,041 --> 00:09:51,521 Speaker 2: you very well. 212 00:09:51,561 --> 00:09:55,001 Speaker 1: They don't. You are still feminine, like, you're still genuine, 213 00:09:55,441 --> 00:09:57,681 Speaker 1: but you do have to know often say I've got 214 00:09:57,681 --> 00:09:59,921 Speaker 1: more balls than the rest of you, you know, or 215 00:10:00,241 --> 00:10:02,121 Speaker 1: I can piss her at the wall, so let's just 216 00:10:02,481 --> 00:10:04,761 Speaker 1: keep going, shall we. And it's very much how you 217 00:10:04,801 --> 00:10:08,681 Speaker 1: deal with someone. I would never ever deal with staff 218 00:10:08,921 --> 00:10:11,441 Speaker 1: or people are earning my trust like that, but I 219 00:10:11,521 --> 00:10:15,881 Speaker 1: have had to deal with some quite bullish sort of 220 00:10:16,121 --> 00:10:19,481 Speaker 1: men that sort of really stand up and exert their 221 00:10:20,201 --> 00:10:22,681 Speaker 1: height and their power over you, and I just go 222 00:10:22,761 --> 00:10:24,761 Speaker 1: to the other side of the desk so it doesn't 223 00:10:24,761 --> 00:10:27,921 Speaker 1: look like I'm looking up so much, you know, and yeah, 224 00:10:28,041 --> 00:10:30,401 Speaker 1: generally I've come out on top. Well, thank you for shen. 225 00:10:30,481 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. 226 00:10:31,681 --> 00:10:33,721 Speaker 2: So from what I've heard, like through your storyan like 227 00:10:33,801 --> 00:10:36,761 Speaker 2: we've grown up and what's happening with challenges, it feels 228 00:10:36,761 --> 00:10:38,681 Speaker 2: like there might have been some sacrifices you've had to 229 00:10:38,681 --> 00:10:40,401 Speaker 2: make along the way to get to where you are. 230 00:10:40,441 --> 00:10:42,441 Speaker 1: Would you say that or yeah, you know the saying 231 00:10:42,481 --> 00:10:44,481 Speaker 1: you can have it all or you can't, right, you 232 00:10:44,521 --> 00:10:47,201 Speaker 1: can't have it all. I've got four children between my 233 00:10:47,241 --> 00:10:51,001 Speaker 1: wife and I, so we are a blended family. From 234 00:10:51,001 --> 00:10:55,001 Speaker 1: when the youngest, Andrew, was two and a half, so 235 00:10:55,041 --> 00:10:56,481 Speaker 1: we had a two year old, a three year old, 236 00:10:56,481 --> 00:10:58,201 Speaker 1: a four year old, and a five year old. When 237 00:10:58,201 --> 00:11:02,321 Speaker 1: we got together, we both had executive careers. We were 238 00:11:02,361 --> 00:11:06,561 Speaker 1: both trying to break through the glass ceiling for one 239 00:11:06,601 --> 00:11:08,641 Speaker 1: of a better word, So you had to be that 240 00:11:08,761 --> 00:11:11,321 Speaker 1: little bit better, You had to work that little bit 241 00:11:11,401 --> 00:11:14,681 Speaker 1: longer to get a career progression. Many times I've had 242 00:11:14,721 --> 00:11:17,561 Speaker 1: to go down or sideways to go up. You don't 243 00:11:17,601 --> 00:11:20,401 Speaker 1: necessarily get that up, which is great, makes you're a 244 00:11:20,441 --> 00:11:22,561 Speaker 1: lot more all rounded, but at the time it's like, damn, 245 00:11:22,561 --> 00:11:24,081 Speaker 1: I got to take less money out just to try 246 00:11:24,121 --> 00:11:26,521 Speaker 1: and get across. Now, obviously, if you're good you do that, 247 00:11:26,801 --> 00:11:28,481 Speaker 1: you get noticed quicker and you move up. So I 248 00:11:28,481 --> 00:11:30,441 Speaker 1: wouldn't say it's a hard chip. Sometimes you just have 249 00:11:30,561 --> 00:11:33,601 Speaker 1: to learn stuff that you just don't know the sacrifices. 250 00:11:33,641 --> 00:11:36,641 Speaker 1: I was not a stay at home mum, never have been. 251 00:11:36,961 --> 00:11:39,481 Speaker 1: That was my choice. If you take too long out 252 00:11:39,521 --> 00:11:42,961 Speaker 1: of the workforce, you too far behind, and hopefully things 253 00:11:42,961 --> 00:11:45,921 Speaker 1: are changing having flexible work conditions and that we didn't 254 00:11:45,961 --> 00:11:48,761 Speaker 1: have that. You went to work and you were at work, 255 00:11:49,721 --> 00:11:51,561 Speaker 1: you know, and if you weren't at work, that meant 256 00:11:51,601 --> 00:11:56,161 Speaker 1: you were on leave. I have four amazing adult children. 257 00:11:56,721 --> 00:12:00,041 Speaker 1: They are incredibly resilient, know their mind. Do they come 258 00:12:00,081 --> 00:12:03,121 Speaker 1: and see mummy every day? No, because that wasn't the 259 00:12:03,201 --> 00:12:07,201 Speaker 1: family we brought up. So you do make such Do. 260 00:12:07,161 --> 00:12:08,801 Speaker 2: You look at that length, do you that you weren't 261 00:12:08,801 --> 00:12:11,361 Speaker 2: around as much? Well, I wasn't around as much. I 262 00:12:11,361 --> 00:12:14,601 Speaker 2: mean every night. Of course, it was kind of militant. 263 00:12:14,601 --> 00:12:16,841 Speaker 2: You know, I'd walk in at six thirty in bang 264 00:12:16,881 --> 00:12:19,841 Speaker 2: bang Adena and eat, eat, wash dishes, chat chat chat, 265 00:12:19,961 --> 00:12:20,881 Speaker 2: Have you done your homework? 266 00:12:20,921 --> 00:12:22,721 Speaker 1: I was not a mum who ever made a diorama. 267 00:12:22,921 --> 00:12:25,081 Speaker 1: In fact, I struggled to smell it. And I don't 268 00:12:25,121 --> 00:12:27,401 Speaker 1: know why we have to make them. But anyway, my 269 00:12:27,481 --> 00:12:30,041 Speaker 1: kids did all their own homework. They did every bit 270 00:12:30,081 --> 00:12:32,121 Speaker 1: of school work that went back to school was theirs, 271 00:12:32,241 --> 00:12:35,601 Speaker 1: not mine. Yeah, I mean I was very onto their education, 272 00:12:35,961 --> 00:12:39,681 Speaker 1: so we're betied them if they weren't getting quite good grades. 273 00:12:40,081 --> 00:12:42,961 Speaker 1: I have a fantastic relationship with their father. We stayed 274 00:12:43,201 --> 00:12:45,961 Speaker 1: living very close in the same suburbs, so you know, 275 00:12:46,041 --> 00:12:50,481 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff didn't certainly didn't compromise. Sure you'd 276 00:12:50,481 --> 00:12:52,001 Speaker 1: want to live with your mum and dad, especially if 277 00:12:52,001 --> 00:12:55,121 Speaker 1: they get on right, but they didn't. We made it 278 00:12:55,161 --> 00:12:57,321 Speaker 1: work once, and I made it work as a family. 279 00:12:57,521 --> 00:12:59,961 Speaker 1: I wasn't picking them up, yeah, at three o'clock in 280 00:12:59,961 --> 00:13:02,241 Speaker 1: the afternoon. But like a lot of us, right, like 281 00:13:02,361 --> 00:13:04,201 Speaker 1: I mean, you do we that melanitar ritin that's that 282 00:13:04,241 --> 00:13:05,041 Speaker 1: kind of sounds like my home. 283 00:13:05,481 --> 00:13:09,161 Speaker 2: Well, I feel it's pretty standard these days. Was there 284 00:13:09,161 --> 00:13:11,001 Speaker 2: a time in your career where I mean, you don't 285 00:13:11,001 --> 00:13:13,441 Speaker 2: strike me as someone with a lot of self doubt. 286 00:13:13,441 --> 00:13:15,001 Speaker 2: But what I know about people is you know that's 287 00:13:15,001 --> 00:13:16,921 Speaker 2: not always what comes on the outside, right. So, was 288 00:13:16,921 --> 00:13:18,761 Speaker 2: there a time in your career where you suddenly went, 289 00:13:19,161 --> 00:13:21,481 Speaker 2: especially trying to get towards the top, like I don't 290 00:13:21,481 --> 00:13:23,761 Speaker 2: know if I can do this. Yeah, there's definitely sometimes 291 00:13:23,881 --> 00:13:26,161 Speaker 2: even now, it's like I've got to take this organization 292 00:13:26,241 --> 00:13:28,321 Speaker 2: to the next step, and it's like. 293 00:13:29,321 --> 00:13:32,321 Speaker 1: Oh, this is hard work, and what does that look like? 294 00:13:32,641 --> 00:13:35,841 Speaker 1: And I'm not naive enough to know that I have 295 00:13:35,921 --> 00:13:38,481 Speaker 1: all the answers, right I don't. So again, it comes 296 00:13:38,521 --> 00:13:40,601 Speaker 1: back to that trust and bringing people around you that 297 00:13:40,681 --> 00:13:45,441 Speaker 1: can help formulate what this organization could and should be 298 00:13:45,521 --> 00:13:46,241 Speaker 1: into the future. 299 00:13:46,961 --> 00:13:48,361 Speaker 2: I love that be where you sort of said, like 300 00:13:48,481 --> 00:13:49,721 Speaker 2: the fact that you know you've got to take it 301 00:13:49,721 --> 00:13:51,001 Speaker 2: to the next level, even though you've been doing it 302 00:13:51,041 --> 00:13:53,081 Speaker 2: for a really long time, You've got that oh how 303 00:13:53,081 --> 00:13:54,481 Speaker 2: am I going to do this? I think that's sort 304 00:13:54,481 --> 00:13:56,041 Speaker 2: of part of what I'm hearing in people that you 305 00:13:56,081 --> 00:13:58,641 Speaker 2: still have that passion, right. Oh yeah, that's critical if 306 00:13:58,681 --> 00:14:00,041 Speaker 2: you're going to be at that level, you need to 307 00:14:00,041 --> 00:14:01,881 Speaker 2: have that passion, right because imagine if you lost that, 308 00:14:01,921 --> 00:14:04,041 Speaker 2: I suppose it would fils down. Yeah, you've got to 309 00:14:04,041 --> 00:14:06,281 Speaker 2: be invested to throw a company and to take a 310 00:14:06,321 --> 00:14:09,721 Speaker 2: company where it needs to go if you're not invested 311 00:14:09,721 --> 00:14:11,401 Speaker 2: in that, and that comes back to some of the 312 00:14:11,401 --> 00:14:13,881 Speaker 2: sacrifices you've had to make, right, because if you're not 313 00:14:13,961 --> 00:14:16,481 Speaker 2: invested in it, people can see it. I know that 314 00:14:16,521 --> 00:14:18,121 Speaker 2: you've been in your field for a really long time, right, 315 00:14:18,161 --> 00:14:20,281 Speaker 2: you are the subject matter expert, right, and now a 316 00:14:20,321 --> 00:14:23,521 Speaker 2: lot of the time that subject matter expert who doesn't 317 00:14:23,521 --> 00:14:26,041 Speaker 2: necessarily want to be a leader becomes a leader right 318 00:14:26,081 --> 00:14:28,601 Speaker 2: in many organizations because they've been there so long and 319 00:14:28,601 --> 00:14:31,081 Speaker 2: they know everything. But it seems clear to me that 320 00:14:31,121 --> 00:14:33,561 Speaker 2: you identified quite early on that you wanted to specifically 321 00:14:33,641 --> 00:14:36,521 Speaker 2: be a leader, correct, Yeah, okay, so, which I think 322 00:14:36,561 --> 00:14:38,921 Speaker 2: is really critical because they are two different things. Yes, 323 00:14:39,001 --> 00:14:40,841 Speaker 2: so you might be an expert, but you also had 324 00:14:40,841 --> 00:14:42,841 Speaker 2: that passion for leadership. So can you took me through 325 00:14:42,881 --> 00:14:45,001 Speaker 2: what was it about being a leader that appealed to 326 00:14:45,001 --> 00:14:47,001 Speaker 2: you so much? You know what it comes back to 327 00:14:47,441 --> 00:14:50,801 Speaker 2: if you think about my schooling years. So again, you 328 00:14:50,841 --> 00:14:53,641 Speaker 2: would not assume that little Julie who turns up at 329 00:14:53,641 --> 00:14:56,961 Speaker 2: a school will be leading some part of the school 330 00:14:57,161 --> 00:15:00,081 Speaker 2: in one year, but I do. I've always taken on 331 00:15:00,121 --> 00:15:03,361 Speaker 2: a role of stepping up. And maybe that's because I'm 332 00:15:03,481 --> 00:15:06,961 Speaker 2: brutally honest, or I've range people that have kept other 333 00:15:06,961 --> 00:15:09,881 Speaker 2: people suppressed, so I just step in. And I think 334 00:15:09,921 --> 00:15:14,081 Speaker 2: that's probably where leadership has come from, taking a stand. 335 00:15:14,241 --> 00:15:16,921 Speaker 1: It's just stepping up. Someone always has to step up, 336 00:15:16,921 --> 00:15:19,961 Speaker 1: and I always felt that, well, if I didn't, who will, 337 00:15:20,321 --> 00:15:21,881 Speaker 1: I'm sure someone else would have done. 338 00:15:22,241 --> 00:15:22,441 Speaker 2: Yeah. 339 00:15:22,441 --> 00:15:25,681 Speaker 1: I've always just stepped up. I thoroughly enjoy it. I 340 00:15:25,761 --> 00:15:29,561 Speaker 1: hold myself to very high account. I'm going to do something, 341 00:15:29,561 --> 00:15:31,241 Speaker 1: I'll do it. Yeah. Some I'm going to do it, 342 00:15:31,241 --> 00:15:32,561 Speaker 1: and I can't do it, I'll tell you I can't 343 00:15:32,561 --> 00:15:34,601 Speaker 1: do it. Yeah. I love that. Remember one part of 344 00:15:34,601 --> 00:15:37,681 Speaker 1: my career, I decided to step out of a leadership 345 00:15:37,761 --> 00:15:40,201 Speaker 1: role and it was in Basin City Council and I 346 00:15:40,281 --> 00:15:42,721 Speaker 1: just took on this portfolio. I just went to the CFO, 347 00:15:42,761 --> 00:15:44,441 Speaker 1: who's a delightful guy at the time, and I said, 348 00:15:44,481 --> 00:15:46,881 Speaker 1: can I take this on? Well, no one else wants it, okay, 349 00:15:47,321 --> 00:15:50,521 Speaker 1: And so I stepped out of a leadership role into 350 00:15:50,561 --> 00:15:53,361 Speaker 1: sort of a project cum of management role. And I said, 351 00:15:53,361 --> 00:15:54,921 Speaker 1: just need a couple of staff. So I got a 352 00:15:54,961 --> 00:15:58,241 Speaker 1: finance guy and an asset manager. So there's the three 353 00:15:58,241 --> 00:16:00,561 Speaker 1: of us. I had no idea what I was doing, 354 00:16:00,921 --> 00:16:03,081 Speaker 1: but I thought it sounds like good fun. And the 355 00:16:03,121 --> 00:16:05,401 Speaker 1: first day I said, right, well, I need a project plan. 356 00:16:05,641 --> 00:16:08,481 Speaker 2: Now. Of course I've read project plans, I've edited project plan, 357 00:16:08,681 --> 00:16:10,041 Speaker 2: I've never actually written one. 358 00:16:10,481 --> 00:16:12,361 Speaker 1: So I looked at the guy I can't remember his 359 00:16:12,401 --> 00:16:14,201 Speaker 1: name now with hilarious guy. I looked at him and 360 00:16:14,241 --> 00:16:18,881 Speaker 1: I said, have you ever written one of these? Went fuck? Okay? 361 00:16:19,241 --> 00:16:21,361 Speaker 1: So I rang a colleague of mine who was the 362 00:16:21,361 --> 00:16:25,401 Speaker 1: head of major projects. I forget engineer ahead of major projects. 363 00:16:25,401 --> 00:16:27,441 Speaker 1: So I rang out and I said, hey, dude, how 364 00:16:27,441 --> 00:16:28,001 Speaker 1: do I do this? 365 00:16:28,081 --> 00:16:30,881 Speaker 2: She is, it's on the website, so elm the intranet, 366 00:16:30,921 --> 00:16:32,801 Speaker 2: you know, and it's got exactly what you put in 367 00:16:32,841 --> 00:16:33,241 Speaker 2: each one. 368 00:16:33,321 --> 00:16:36,481 Speaker 1: I went, oh, she goes just google it. So I looked. 369 00:16:36,681 --> 00:16:39,281 Speaker 1: I went, oh, it tells me everything. Oh this is fantastic. 370 00:16:39,321 --> 00:16:40,721 Speaker 1: It tells me what to do, you know. 371 00:16:40,961 --> 00:16:42,641 Speaker 2: And we had a great project and we never really 372 00:16:42,681 --> 00:16:44,841 Speaker 2: followed it, but we did a really good job. And 373 00:16:44,881 --> 00:16:47,401 Speaker 2: the nine months were in that sort of asset portfolio 374 00:16:47,921 --> 00:16:50,481 Speaker 2: and then I went and through the Looking Glass, which 375 00:16:50,481 --> 00:16:54,081 Speaker 2: is a leadership out of Mandalizer Business School in Melbourne. 376 00:16:54,721 --> 00:16:57,041 Speaker 1: And that's when I said I'm going to be a CEO. 377 00:16:57,881 --> 00:17:00,761 Speaker 1: Ah okay, And that was twenty ten, and that was 378 00:17:00,761 --> 00:17:03,761 Speaker 1: a CEO three years later. I think once you say it, yeah, 379 00:17:03,881 --> 00:17:05,721 Speaker 1: put it out there. I put it there. I've never 380 00:17:05,761 --> 00:17:08,121 Speaker 1: said it before. I just naturally bubbled to the top 381 00:17:08,761 --> 00:17:10,121 Speaker 1: and I'm going to be a CEO. 382 00:17:10,201 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: So a lot of people wouldn't say that because and it's 383 00:17:11,521 --> 00:17:13,601 Speaker 2: kind of like that, being held accountable to that, yeah, right. 384 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,041 Speaker 2: You know, being accountable is also being able to make 385 00:17:16,120 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 2: decisions and own that decision that you make right, even 386 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 2: if it goes wrong. So, gus, what happens when you're 387 00:17:21,281 --> 00:17:23,161 Speaker 2: wrong on a decision right? Because you can't always be right, 388 00:17:23,201 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: Like you make a call and it's not the right call. 389 00:17:25,041 --> 00:17:26,321 Speaker 2: How do you bounce back from that? 390 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,641 Speaker 1: I've been wrong so many times. I've probably been wrong 391 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: more than I've been right. But if you own it 392 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: and you make a decision based on the information that 393 00:17:33,441 --> 00:17:36,201 Speaker 1: you have at the time, the reason you're wrong, generally 394 00:17:36,481 --> 00:17:39,360 Speaker 1: this information has not been present. If I've sourced the 395 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: information that I think I need to make that decision, 396 00:17:42,681 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: and more information comes to light, then yes, I may 397 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,201 Speaker 1: have made the wrong call, but I'll own it. Often 398 00:17:48,481 --> 00:17:51,041 Speaker 1: other people will just naturally step up and going, I've 399 00:17:51,041 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: got this, Julie, I can take it. You know, I 400 00:17:53,041 --> 00:17:54,400 Speaker 1: know what's happened. We can fix this. 401 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,881 Speaker 2: You obviously operate at quite a fast pace and you're 402 00:17:56,961 --> 00:17:57,561 Speaker 2: quite driven. 403 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,681 Speaker 1: Do you burn out? When I did this course, my psychologist, 404 00:18:01,961 --> 00:18:04,721 Speaker 1: they watch you and they give you lots and lots 405 00:18:04,761 --> 00:18:09,881 Speaker 1: of feedback, which is fantastic. Oh if you're ready for it. 406 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: When you're not, it's not so good. That's the first 407 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,761 Speaker 1: time as an adult, I threw a tantrum. I read 408 00:18:15,801 --> 00:18:18,961 Speaker 1: this feedback and I went into my bedroom and I 409 00:18:19,001 --> 00:18:21,761 Speaker 1: threw myself on the bed, and I was kicking right 410 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,801 Speaker 1: because I was like, how the hell have I managed 411 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,161 Speaker 1: to get so far if I'm shit at everything right? 412 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,721 Speaker 1: So it was brutally honest feedback. And of course then 413 00:18:29,761 --> 00:18:31,801 Speaker 1: you unpack it and you're not shit at everything right. 414 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,801 Speaker 1: But of course you always see that all sort of extreme, 415 00:18:35,441 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: you know. Him and I were talking and he said, 416 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,561 Speaker 1: you're incredibly focused. He said, you need to step away 417 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,801 Speaker 1: a little bit, And I said, well, I run and 418 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,721 Speaker 1: I do right, And he goes, yeah, I saw you running. 419 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,321 Speaker 2: Really focused, and I went, well, I need to run faster. 420 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: He goes, do you right. So it was really interesting 421 00:18:55,241 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 2: the way he challenged me. Said, I saw you on 422 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,561 Speaker 2: the treadmill. I saw you on the road. He said, 423 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 2: even you're running is so purposeful. He said, you don't 424 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 2: have any relaxing or downtime. Hm. 425 00:19:05,441 --> 00:19:08,081 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so I took a lot away from that. 426 00:19:08,441 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 2: Have you built in some R and R into your 427 00:19:11,201 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 2: life these days? 428 00:19:12,041 --> 00:19:12,521 Speaker 1: Yeah? 429 00:19:12,681 --> 00:19:15,081 Speaker 2: My R and R is hele and I go hiking 430 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: nice okay, right, And I used to be that. 431 00:19:17,561 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: One that always had to be at the front. Yeah, not, 432 00:19:21,001 --> 00:19:23,801 Speaker 1: because I actually find now I've explained myself. I said, look, 433 00:19:23,921 --> 00:19:25,561 Speaker 1: I'm not at the front because I want to push 434 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: past anyone. I'm at the front because then I'm just 435 00:19:28,281 --> 00:19:30,801 Speaker 1: in my own head and I'm a real chatter in 436 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,041 Speaker 1: case you haven't noticed. But I'm in my own space. 437 00:19:33,761 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: So it's actually quite healthy for me. Yeah. 438 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 2: You know. Now I'm a bit older, I'm kind of 439 00:19:37,441 --> 00:19:41,041 Speaker 2: the one at the back, and I've resigned myself to 440 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: that fact that, you know, when I'm walking with thirty 441 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,241 Speaker 2: year olds they are way faster. 442 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,041 Speaker 1: I know, yeah, I know, love that all right. 443 00:19:48,041 --> 00:19:50,801 Speaker 2: I want to talk a little bit about culture, because 444 00:19:50,801 --> 00:19:52,721 Speaker 2: I've heard from a few people that healthy land and 445 00:19:52,721 --> 00:19:55,041 Speaker 2: wood is a great place to work. Why do you 446 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 2: think people say that. Is there sort of deliberate practices 447 00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:59,761 Speaker 2: or rituals that you put in place. 448 00:19:59,521 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: To make sure it's that way or is it just 449 00:20:01,201 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 1: kind of organic? It's both. Actually, it's definitely a but 450 00:20:05,961 --> 00:20:08,641 Speaker 1: it's structurally organic. Structurally organic. 451 00:20:08,801 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 2: I like that. 452 00:20:10,241 --> 00:20:13,321 Speaker 1: We seek a lot of feedback from people, okay, to say, well, 453 00:20:13,321 --> 00:20:15,801 Speaker 1: what's important to you? And then obviously I can't act 454 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,481 Speaker 1: on everything. You know, what might be important to someone 455 00:20:18,561 --> 00:20:21,001 Speaker 1: is to get paid and not actually work. Well, sorry, 456 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: that's not happening, right, But I hire people that are 457 00:20:24,321 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: fun my executive. I hire them based on yes, of 458 00:20:28,001 --> 00:20:29,721 Speaker 1: course they've got the skills. They don't apply for the 459 00:20:29,801 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: job if they don't have You don't apply to be 460 00:20:31,441 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: a CFO if you've not got a finance background. All right, 461 00:20:35,241 --> 00:20:38,120 Speaker 1: so they've got strong credentials. But then I work on 462 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: that vibe and how are we going to work for that? 463 00:20:40,241 --> 00:20:43,241 Speaker 1: And they're not many mets. I deliberately do not hire 464 00:20:43,961 --> 00:20:48,001 Speaker 1: mini meats because that's disastrous. Right, there's only room for 465 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,161 Speaker 1: one or two egos in the room, right, So it's 466 00:20:51,241 --> 00:20:56,321 Speaker 1: that balance and I've failed quite a few times on that, 467 00:20:56,521 --> 00:20:59,801 Speaker 1: you know, like I really get that one, but when 468 00:20:59,801 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 1: I bring them into the dynamic, it's the sort of 469 00:21:02,441 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: forming stage. The storming and forming stage never get to norming, 470 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: and something's got to give. So look, most people are 471 00:21:08,521 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: self aware enough they'll then move on, right, or we 472 00:21:11,561 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 1: help them. But so from staff, I think the team one. 473 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: They're in jobs they love. You don't get into this 474 00:21:17,321 --> 00:21:20,001 Speaker 1: if you don't like the work right, you might come 475 00:21:20,001 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: in and out and use as a stepping stone, but 476 00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,521 Speaker 1: typically you've got to love the work. So if you 477 00:21:24,521 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: can foster that and make it a kind of fun place, 478 00:21:27,801 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: certainly accountable. 479 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,361 Speaker 2: It's not somewhere where you come and have your own 480 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 2: private passion and do your own thing. You follow you know, 481 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,161 Speaker 2: I'm very clear on the vision for the organization and 482 00:21:37,201 --> 00:21:39,561 Speaker 2: how we have to grow the organization, and that's the 483 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 2: guardrails that you need to be in. So how do 484 00:21:42,001 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 2: you stay connected to you But you got eighty four 485 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,001 Speaker 2: people you can't be over at once. Back in the 486 00:21:46,041 --> 00:21:48,521 Speaker 2: day when we were less digital, you know, people might 487 00:21:48,561 --> 00:21:51,281 Speaker 2: always have to come through your gatekeeper, your EA to 488 00:21:51,281 --> 00:21:53,441 Speaker 2: get hold of you versus now is kind of all 489 00:21:53,481 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 2: these different tools and ways to be you know, to 490 00:21:56,201 --> 00:21:59,321 Speaker 2: be contacted. Is that something you've experienced. There's been constantly 491 00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 2: available to everybody. 492 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,801 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's really interesting. Even more so when you 493 00:22:03,441 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: grow an organization. You can imagine when I first took 494 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: on and there was like twelve of us. Of course 495 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,241 Speaker 1: they pop their heads in the door every day. Yeah yeah, yeah, right, 496 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:12,801 Speaker 1: you pop your head out and go, oh if you 497 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: got this, what about that? So very different dynamic and 498 00:22:16,521 --> 00:22:18,521 Speaker 1: a couple of those people are still with me today actually, 499 00:22:18,801 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: And then you start growing, and then we merged, and 500 00:22:21,241 --> 00:22:24,801 Speaker 1: that was a big cultural change because very different organizations 501 00:22:24,801 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: and different culture. So you had to lift yourself up 502 00:22:27,281 --> 00:22:30,041 Speaker 1: a little bit more and not be so available. Of course, 503 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,921 Speaker 1: those that have come with you, they're like, oh, don't 504 00:22:32,921 --> 00:22:35,481 Speaker 1: you like me anymore? Yes? I do like you, Yes 505 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: I do. But I can't be there all the time. 506 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:41,241 Speaker 1: One thing that drives me insane is copying me in 507 00:22:41,721 --> 00:22:46,201 Speaker 1: therefore assuming I know, ah yeah, okay, don't do that. 508 00:22:46,521 --> 00:22:48,801 Speaker 1: So I actually have internal I have an email that 509 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,001 Speaker 1: goes back going if you've copied me in assumed I've 510 00:22:51,001 --> 00:22:53,161 Speaker 1: not read this. It's gone into a different folder. If 511 00:22:53,201 --> 00:22:55,961 Speaker 1: you want me to action something, email me directly because 512 00:22:56,001 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 1: you get a lot of ccs otherwise. 513 00:22:57,281 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 2: Oh. 514 00:22:57,921 --> 00:23:00,481 Speaker 1: I always make myself available to executive and I think 515 00:23:00,681 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: one of the things I did, probably a few years ago, 516 00:23:03,041 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: I seem to have pushed them out. They felt that 517 00:23:05,281 --> 00:23:07,561 Speaker 1: they had to go through in the a to make 518 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,041 Speaker 1: an appointment to speak with me, and I didn't notice 519 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,521 Speaker 1: it at first, and then I realized what they were doing. 520 00:23:12,521 --> 00:23:15,761 Speaker 1: They were kind of stepping back. And my mantrarh them 521 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,521 Speaker 1: is you need to talk to me. You ring me? 522 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,281 Speaker 1: You walk in the doors closed. It's probably because I'm 523 00:23:20,281 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: on the phone. I always leave my door open for me. 524 00:23:22,921 --> 00:23:26,521 Speaker 1: They can walk in anytime, ring me. Do not apologize 525 00:23:26,561 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: for needing to talk to me. What about empathy? 526 00:23:28,961 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 2: Do you actively practice empathy as a CEO or do 527 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,801 Speaker 2: you think that becomes harder to It's a real interesting one, 528 00:23:33,801 --> 00:23:37,321 Speaker 2: the e of brave like, because I find that's probably 529 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,521 Speaker 2: most people's. 530 00:23:39,041 --> 00:23:40,041 Speaker 1: More challenging one. 531 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 2: What's your honors take on where empathy sits in your 532 00:23:42,201 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: leadership style. 533 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm empathetic at all bless. Yeah, this 534 00:23:46,241 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: is totally unrehearsed. But I listened to the podcasts and sorrow. 535 00:23:50,441 --> 00:23:51,881 Speaker 1: I need to know what the acronyms are for, right, 536 00:23:52,321 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: And they got to empathy and I was like, I 537 00:23:54,281 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: don't have empathy. Well, if I do, it's very deep down. 538 00:23:59,521 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 1: I can probably relate to a lot of things that 539 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: people are going through. I don't think if you had 540 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: asked my guy that I'm very empathetic. If it's putting 541 00:24:08,921 --> 00:24:12,201 Speaker 1: yourself in someone else's shoes, that I can do, okay, 542 00:24:12,201 --> 00:24:15,761 Speaker 1: But if it's throwing yourself in so as you're feeling 543 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: everything that they're feeling, and that's probably not me. 544 00:24:19,761 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: It's an interesting one because I think people's understanding of 545 00:24:22,561 --> 00:24:25,161 Speaker 2: what it is it differs, right, Whereas I very much 546 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: see it as the ability to hold the space for 547 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 2: someone's feelings, right. I don't think it means you have 548 00:24:30,961 --> 00:24:33,041 Speaker 2: to take at all. Yeah, And I think that's the 549 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 2: art of empathy, right, because then you're bordering over with sympathy, 550 00:24:36,001 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 2: right when you're pouring yourself into like you know, you're 551 00:24:37,721 --> 00:24:40,241 Speaker 2: getting sad with them. It's holding that space. It's being 552 00:24:40,241 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 2: able to have an uncomfortable like sitting with someone's uncomfortable emotions. 553 00:24:44,481 --> 00:24:46,321 Speaker 2: That to me is kind of what empathy is as 554 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: well as you know, seeing things from their perspective and 555 00:24:48,441 --> 00:24:50,561 Speaker 2: staying out of judgment and doing that. And from what 556 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,401 Speaker 2: I've heard from you today, actually think you do stay 557 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,561 Speaker 2: out of judgment really well, which I think is a 558 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,041 Speaker 2: part of it. But I think empathy is that caring 559 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,561 Speaker 2: soft you know what I mean, more softer skill that 560 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 2: people are sort of and I think why it's such 561 00:25:01,321 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: a hard one to harness because especially when you're in 562 00:25:03,721 --> 00:25:05,281 Speaker 2: a very senior role and you make a lot of 563 00:25:05,281 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 2: the big decisions, it's like, is there a room for 564 00:25:07,281 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 2: that softness? I strongly think that there is, But I 565 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 2: think you've actually got it. So maybe it's more about 566 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:14,521 Speaker 2: the understanding of empathy for people and seeing where it sits. 567 00:25:14,681 --> 00:25:17,801 Speaker 1: There's so much going on around you. If you cared 568 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,441 Speaker 1: for everything that happened, yea, you just not get shit done. Right. 569 00:25:21,521 --> 00:25:22,841 Speaker 1: We are who we are the way we're born. 570 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: It's being aware of it, right, So you being aware 571 00:25:25,281 --> 00:25:27,881 Speaker 2: that maybe doesn't come naturally to me to be like that. 572 00:25:28,041 --> 00:25:31,041 Speaker 2: It's working with somebody who's going to help you maybe 573 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:32,721 Speaker 2: lean into that space a bit more so. I think 574 00:25:32,721 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 2: that's great. There's like a method of, you know, making 575 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,321 Speaker 2: it happen. So let me be clear, that's never for me. 576 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:37,961 Speaker 1: What it's about. 577 00:25:38,001 --> 00:25:40,521 Speaker 2: It's about being aware of rasterates and weaknesses are in 578 00:25:40,521 --> 00:25:41,001 Speaker 2: those areas. 579 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,561 Speaker 1: I've always made sure all through my career, even as 580 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: your sort of middle management that part of my team, 581 00:25:46,481 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: there's someone that actually has probably the other scale of 582 00:25:50,561 --> 00:25:52,241 Speaker 1: caring and I rely on them. 583 00:25:52,321 --> 00:25:54,041 Speaker 2: I always like to sort of finish on a bit 584 00:25:54,041 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 2: of a different questions. I think I'm going to ask 585 00:25:55,921 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 2: you this one, Julie. What's an opportunity you said no 586 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 2: to in the past that you would say yes to today? 587 00:26:02,721 --> 00:26:04,201 Speaker 1: I was heading off overseas. 588 00:26:05,041 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 2: We were up overseas, and then I settled in Australia, 589 00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: and then I was going to go overseas again with 590 00:26:10,721 --> 00:26:14,521 Speaker 2: some friends, and I said no because I've focused on 591 00:26:14,521 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 2: a career and I thought, I know, I need to 592 00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:17,441 Speaker 2: stay here and focus. 593 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: I think if I had the chance, but then my 594 00:26:19,921 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 1: life would be totally different, right, I would have gone. 595 00:26:23,321 --> 00:26:26,561 Speaker 1: The reason for saying no was, I know it was 596 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,961 Speaker 1: a career, but I think I just wanted to stop 597 00:26:29,001 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: for a while. 598 00:26:29,561 --> 00:26:32,281 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what would be the other job? 599 00:26:32,321 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: I might find you in. What else would Julie be 600 00:26:34,241 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 1: doing now? Definitely in fitness. Fitness. I would love to 601 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: lead a fitness studio. There's two kind of little things 602 00:26:42,921 --> 00:26:46,721 Speaker 1: that I think I would be when I finish the 603 00:26:46,801 --> 00:26:50,961 Speaker 1: Julie I am now. One is definitely influencing. It's health 604 00:26:50,961 --> 00:26:52,761 Speaker 1: and well being. You know, I'm not a tiny little 605 00:26:52,761 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: girl or anything, but I'm strong and I believe in 606 00:26:55,001 --> 00:26:57,961 Speaker 1: women need to be strong mentally and physically, and so 607 00:26:58,041 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: that to me is really important. And the other thing, 608 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: which I reckon to be really really cool is a 609 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: matre d at a really nice restaurant. Why. I don't know. 610 00:27:06,441 --> 00:27:09,441 Speaker 1: I just think it's you're talking with customers, you're still 611 00:27:09,481 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: dealing with staff, and I don't mind staff issues. The 612 00:27:12,561 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: people right, great food. 613 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 2: I would definitely learn how to be a similiar you know, 614 00:27:18,761 --> 00:27:20,481 Speaker 2: I love wine and it'd be great if I could 615 00:27:20,561 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 2: talk about. 616 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 1: It as well. Yeah, So love that. 617 00:27:23,481 --> 00:27:28,441 Speaker 2: So food and fitness, you know, whining and exercising it. 618 00:27:28,801 --> 00:27:30,441 Speaker 1: Love that. Just thank you so much. 619 00:27:30,521 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 2: You have been nothing but brave and honest and open 620 00:27:33,721 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 2: on this podcast, which is fantastic because it's all about 621 00:27:35,921 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: people seeing that you consider these roles and still be 622 00:27:38,721 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 2: incredibly human and aware of who you are, and it's 623 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,641 Speaker 2: been a joy. So thank you, Julie, thank you so much. 624 00:27:43,681 --> 00:27:44,761 Speaker 2: It's been an absolute delight. 625 00:27:45,321 --> 00:27:46,241 Speaker 1: Thank you. Awesome