Speaker 1: Andy Gowers, Welcome back to the You Project. This time
Speaker 1: we're going to actually record the conversation. I thought we'd
Speaker 1: do that. How are you.
Speaker 2: I'm very well, Thanks, Craig. I'm delighted to be back
Speaker 2: with you. It's always a pleasure talking with you.
Speaker 1: Thanks. Man. We better say hello to Tiff because she
Speaker 1: gets a little bit upset. Hi, Tiff, Hi, just driving
Speaker 1: the bus. Yeah, Tis been bossing both of us around
Speaker 1: before we started recording.
Speaker 3: But that's thank god, thank god you here, Tiff.
Speaker 4: But how good do you sound now?
Speaker 3: Unbelievable. Never never sounded better the low bar. It's a
Speaker 3: low bart.
Speaker 1: I'll tell my audience, hey, audience, last time. In almost
Speaker 1: two thousand episodes of The You Project. Fuck, I'm old
Speaker 1: h Andy Gower's president of the Hawthorne Football Club. He
Speaker 1: and I sat down in this very kind of scenario
Speaker 1: that we're doing right now and had just blew each
Speaker 1: other away with mind blowing conversation and insights, inspiration.
Speaker 3: Fucking it was everything.
Speaker 1: It had everything, and one particular dumbass who pressed pause
Speaker 1: on the recording because they were chatting before it went
Speaker 1: live forgot to unpause it. So let's hope today, Tif
Speaker 1: that we can get it all in the can and
Speaker 1: actually actually push it out of the podcast nest into
Speaker 1: the stratosphere, that is the public. Can we do that?
Speaker 4: I'm here now, I'm here, now it happen.
Speaker 1: You're here now to salvages? Ship mate? How have you been?
Speaker 1: How are you traveling? How's life? How's work? How's the family?
Speaker 1: How's you know, navigating your fifties? I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: fucking spring chicken.
Speaker 2: I'm as old as you look. All of those subjects
Speaker 2: that you raise are all in good order. Life is busy,
Speaker 2: but very energizing. I'm loving what I'm doing, I guess
Speaker 2: the most. Yeah, the most high profile thing that I'm
Speaker 2: doing is the Hawthorne Presidency role, but the other things
Speaker 2: that I do around that are all very important to
Speaker 2: me as well, including my business interests, my family, my friends, some.
Speaker 3: Causes that I'm that I'm interested in and involved in.
Speaker 2: So that it's a life is a juggle, but it's
Speaker 2: a very energizing and rewarding juggle.
Speaker 3: So I wouldn't change a thing.
Speaker 1: How much how much of your kind of day or
Speaker 1: days is strategically planned, organized, structured, timetabled, and how much
Speaker 1: is freestyle? I mean obviously weekends are well, no, even
Speaker 1: weekends are work for you. So that question stands, is
Speaker 1: there is there any space or during the footy season
Speaker 1: it's a bit different.
Speaker 3: I guess yeah.
Speaker 2: The footy season's fairly full on because I'm often quite
Speaker 2: often traveling.
Speaker 3: Into state, so there are flights to catch and other
Speaker 3: cities to be in. But that's also an opportunity.
Speaker 2: To connect with people involved in the footy club, but
Speaker 2: also outside and I can I mean, look at us now,
Speaker 2: we're having this interview over zoom. Technology allows you to
Speaker 2: be anywhere anytime, really, but look, to go back to
Speaker 2: your original question, most of my week is structured. There
Speaker 2: are blocked at times for personal pursuits and and one
Speaker 2: of the things I'm it's interesting, Well, I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I get asked a lot how do I fit in?
Speaker 2: Because I exercise a lot. I'm an avid road cyclist.
Speaker 2: I can't run anymore because I've got a bad knee,
Speaker 2: so I switched to cycling about fifteen twenty years ago,
Speaker 2: and I cycle a lot like I would do I.
Speaker 3: Would average three hundred k's a week.
Speaker 2: And I often get asked, how do you fit in
Speaker 2: so much cycling? And my answer is, well, I can
Speaker 2: fit in everything else because of a cycle that much.
Speaker 2: It allows me to feel both mentally and physically energetic enough.
Speaker 2: If I didn't ride that much, I don't think I'd
Speaker 2: be able to fit in all the other things that
Speaker 2: I'm doing. So it is crucial to me, and typically
Speaker 2: that starts my day. I'll start the day with a
Speaker 2: ride with a group of mates and it sets up
Speaker 2: my whole day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know the thing about when you
Speaker 1: work out every day, whether or not it's running, riding, swimming,
Speaker 1: lifting weights or a combo thereof, or something else, like,
Speaker 1: you're putting your body through its paces. It makes well
Speaker 1: probably a tiff does the same. TIFs a box around
Speaker 1: an lead athlete you train, you were an e lead athlete,
Speaker 1: I was just an old has been. But it gives
Speaker 1: you more energy and focus and horsepower for the rest
Speaker 1: of the day, so I actually get more done in
Speaker 1: less time, Like if I gave myself an extra hour
Speaker 1: or hour and a half and didn't do like I
Speaker 1: walk rock bottom t case a day and I lift
Speaker 1: weights every day for an hour, Right, So I went on,
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep those two and a half hours.
Speaker 1: By the way, when i'm walking, I'm working quite often,
Speaker 1: but yes, I get less done. But because in my
Speaker 1: brain and my body and my cardiovascular system and my
Speaker 1: endocrime system and all of that kind of stuff is
Speaker 1: in pretty good shape for my age, I'm much more
Speaker 1: effective and productive in the hours that I do work.
Speaker 2: Yes, I can completely relate to that, And that's another
Speaker 2: reason why you know I do that, And to me, it's, well,
Speaker 2: it's what I've always done. I've always exercised basically.
Speaker 3: Not every day, but pretty close to every day, and.
Speaker 2: It's just I'm wied that way, and I don't feel
Speaker 2: like I'm acting normally unless I'm exercising often, so that
Speaker 2: that's exactly what you just said.
Speaker 3: Great, that allows me to.
Speaker 2: Perform and to juggle the things that I need to
Speaker 2: juggle and make sure I'm present and operating as close
Speaker 2: to full cylinders as I can be, because because I
Speaker 2: exercised regularly.
Speaker 1: This is a weird question, right, But I always think
Speaker 1: about this for me, Like last night, I did my
Speaker 1: mentoring group, which is a Monday night group of about
Speaker 1: fifty odd people online, and among other things, we're talking
Speaker 1: about how well our brain works at a given age.
Speaker 1: Our mind, our brain cognitive function, decision making, memory, all
Speaker 1: that kind of shit. Yes, I'm sixty one and it's hard.
Speaker 1: You can't be objective about yourself because you're you, right,
Speaker 1: your experience of you is totally subjective, but as objective
Speaker 1: as you can be. How do you reckon your mind
Speaker 1: and your brain are working at fifty six? You just
Speaker 1: turn fifty six? Can you happy? Happy birthday? How well
Speaker 1: do you reckon your brain and your mind is working?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 1: Do you think it's as good as it was when
Speaker 1: it was thirty or forty or in some ways a
Speaker 1: bit better?
Speaker 3: I think in some areas it's better.
Speaker 2: But I think, look, I'm probably not as up as
Speaker 2: I was twenty years ago or thereabouts.
Speaker 3: But I think i'm.
Speaker 2: Just because I'm older, I've got more experience in certain areas.
Speaker 2: I'm better at certain things, So I think I'm better
Speaker 2: with relationships. I think I'm better with decision making because
Speaker 2: I tend not to rush them.
Speaker 3: I think that's the.
Speaker 2: Biggest lessons I've learned over time is sleep on sleep
Speaker 2: on big decisions. You don't have to rush into saying
Speaker 2: yes or no or having a response. You can actually,
Speaker 2: and it's actually really great advice for any young impulsive
Speaker 2: people out there.
Speaker 3: You know, take your time of a big decisions. You
Speaker 3: don't have to rush into.
Speaker 2: Responding even an interim response other than well, thanks very much,
Speaker 2: I'll have a think about it and I'll come back
Speaker 2: to you. That's perfectly acceptable. I think over time, you
Speaker 2: pick up these life lessons and you're better equipped to
Speaker 2: deal with what's going on. Whether you're I don't think
Speaker 2: you're as sharp as you were when you were younger,
Speaker 2: but I think that with age comes experience.
Speaker 3: With experience comes a bit more wisdom.
Speaker 2: And you know, I, if I had to name one
Speaker 2: of my strengths, I think it's calmness under pressure. And
Speaker 2: maybe part of that is not rushing into quick answers
Speaker 2: on decisions and so on.
Speaker 1: Do you think that we call that or we don't.
Speaker 1: In Eastern philosophy that being able to be the calm
Speaker 1: in the chaos is called equanimity. Do you think do
Speaker 1: you think that capacity to be calm when maybe some
Speaker 1: people wouldn't be calm, or when some people are losing
Speaker 1: their shit for you to be the voice of reason?
Speaker 1: Is that inherent? Is that in your DNA? Is that genetic?
Speaker 1: Or is that a skill that has developed through being
Speaker 1: in the middle of pressure over time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's a combination.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've always been as calm as I
Speaker 2: am now. I think as a younger man, I was
Speaker 2: more impulsive and I felt like I had to respond
Speaker 2: more quickly.
Speaker 3: So I think that has developed over time, that part.
Speaker 2: I think that I've always been relatively calm, But I
Speaker 2: think that capability of being calm in a crisis is
Speaker 2: something that I have worked on, and I've been in
Speaker 2: a few crises over my time.
Speaker 3: So you tend to do you tend to get better
Speaker 3: at handling them, I think.
Speaker 2: And when I say crisis, not too many life and
Speaker 2: death moments, but life or death moments, but the odd
Speaker 2: moment that it's been pretty important, pretty stressful, and you know,
Speaker 2: I think you just learn over time that there's a
Speaker 2: way to work through this, and we do it rationally,
Speaker 2: and we do it. We don't have to rush into anything.
Speaker 2: Let's do it properly.
Speaker 1: It's interesting when you think about, like, as an elite athlete,
Speaker 1: you might have all the skill, all the fitness, all
Speaker 1: the talent, all the whatever, spatial awareness left foot right foot.
Speaker 1: If we're talking about footing, you know, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: But if you can't deal with pressure, then you can't
Speaker 1: be a great footballer. You might be an okay one,
Speaker 1: but you know, like even if you've got all the
Speaker 1: ingredients in the success formula, yes, you can't perform under pressure.
Speaker 1: You can't be the calm in the chaos. It's going
Speaker 1: to be hard to fulfill your potential.
Speaker 3: Right it is. And look, pressure is such an interesting
Speaker 3: topic of itself. So there was a great quote.
Speaker 2: By Zach Tuhey, the former Carlton and Geelong play He
Speaker 2: had a shot for goal. The siren was the ultimate situation.
Speaker 2: Siren had gone, his team were down. He needed to
Speaker 2: kick the goal after the sign quite a big kick.
Speaker 2: He goes back and he puts it through. He's mobbed
Speaker 2: by his teammates. Anyway, he gets interviewed after the game
Speaker 2: and he gets asked the question, how did you handle
Speaker 2: the pressure of that moment?
Speaker 3: How did you how did you think about it?
Speaker 2: And he said, there's no such thing as pressure, And
Speaker 2: then he said, actually I'm wrong. There's pressure in your tires,
Speaker 2: you know, your car tires, your bick ties and so on.
Speaker 2: Because you can make you that pressure that is actually
Speaker 2: a measurable pounds per square inch.
Speaker 3: I think it is.
Speaker 2: But the reality of pressure is there's only there's really
Speaker 2: only one person that can put pressure on you, and
Speaker 2: that is you. You're the only one who can put
Speaker 2: pressure on yourself. And there's a great approach that you
Speaker 2: know we talked before about you know, hopefully getting wiser
Speaker 2: as you get older. Talking recently with a group of
Speaker 2: golfers and they asked me the question, you know, how
Speaker 2: do you know you're on the first tee, there's a
Speaker 2: big crowd milling around, you've got to you've got to
Speaker 2: hit the ball off the off the te box and
Speaker 2: there's all that pressure. How do you handle that pressure?
Speaker 2: And I said, well, the way to think about it
Speaker 2: is whether it's the drive off the first t or
Speaker 2: a crucial part in a game, or Zach Dewey having
Speaker 2: a shot for goal in a footy match, is you.
Speaker 3: Focus on process, not outcome.
Speaker 2: The pressure comes when you think, gee, if I miss
Speaker 2: this kick, we're going to lose this game. Or if
Speaker 2: I hit a bad drive here, everyone's going to laugh
Speaker 2: at me on this tea box. Well, just flip flip
Speaker 2: the script and look at process. So what do I
Speaker 2: need to do to hit a good drive here? What
Speaker 2: do I need to do to hold this put? What
Speaker 2: do I need to do to kick this goal? The
Speaker 2: win is blowing slightly right to left, so I need
Speaker 2: to aim this at the right hand goalpost. You know,
Speaker 2: I've got my routine that I go through every time
Speaker 2: I kick the goal. I set jot for goal.
Speaker 3: I've got my routine.
Speaker 2: So you just focus on process. If you think about outcome,
Speaker 2: you then start putting pressure on yourself. And I think
Speaker 2: that's the best way to handle it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think you're right. Like pressure and
Speaker 1: even anxiety, individual responses to a stimulus. Right, because Zach's
Speaker 1: in front of goal or wherever, he was, in the pocket,
Speaker 1: on an angle wherever, and he's not feeling any pressure.
Speaker 1: Someone else is feeling three out of ten pressure in
Speaker 1: the same situation, someone else is feeling eleven out of
Speaker 1: ten pressure and their sympathetic nervous systems going nuts adrenaline cortisol,
Speaker 1: and their skill has gone from a nine to a
Speaker 1: two because there's an inverse correlation between stress and skill,
Speaker 1: stress level and skill level. Right, all of that is
Speaker 1: a subjective response. Yeah, it's not a standard thing.
Speaker 3: Not at all. Not at all.
Speaker 2: And that's why I think whatever situation you're talking about
Speaker 2: where there is a degree of deceived pressure, yeah, so
Speaker 2: called pressure, if you can focus on process, whatever the
Speaker 2: process is that you need to complete the task successfully
Speaker 2: versus gee, what's the outcome of this task? So when
Speaker 2: people in theotiating, I mean, look at the situation at
Speaker 2: the moment with the you know, the.
Speaker 3: Israeli hostages negotiating release. If you focused on the outcome
Speaker 3: of that, that would be, I reckon, probably the most
Speaker 3: pressurized negotiation or situation you could possibly be. And you've got.
Speaker 2: People's lives literally at stake versus well, what is the process.
Speaker 3: To get to what we want to achieve here?
Speaker 2: Now that's an extreme example, but everything in between from
Speaker 2: a put on a golf course to stating for people's lives.
Speaker 2: If you can focus on the process, the best process possible,
Speaker 2: rather than the outcome that might eventuate, I think that
Speaker 2: goes a long way to managing so called pressure.
Speaker 1: I want to change tack a little bit. So when
Speaker 1: you were playing footy, you know football was it was
Speaker 1: the same, but it was different. You know, it's more
Speaker 1: of a business now again, yes, it's it's more professional
Speaker 1: now it's more organized, structured. We've got people doing you
Speaker 1: know everything, you know, dietitians and psychologists and high.
Speaker 3: Level coaches, all of that.
Speaker 1: How how have you seen, I don't just a commentary
Speaker 1: like the evolution of footy sense you were kicking it
Speaker 1: to now you're now you're the president of an AFL
Speaker 1: club and you you played? Did you play for three
Speaker 1: teams or two?
Speaker 2: Well? I played for I played for three from Bears.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The Bears then merged with Detroy, so I changed clubs
Speaker 2: without changing clubs.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, So Hawthorn and one hundred forty games, which
Speaker 1: is exactly one hundred and forty more than me.
Speaker 3: Well done, one hundred and forty together?
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, between us you, me and if of us
Speaker 1: and forty games.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And also between the three of us about fifteen boxing matches.
Speaker 1: That's right, isn't it? Tiff? That there you go? So
Speaker 1: thanks very much. I feel much better about myself.
Speaker 3: So you should the company you keep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what's what's the I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: if I want the bad, but what's the good?
Speaker 3: What? Like?
Speaker 1: What have you noticed in terms of the like the
Speaker 1: training standards, the facilities, the resources, the pressure. It's been
Speaker 1: a real evolution over the last twenty thirty years, right.
Speaker 3: It's been huge.
Speaker 2: So the biggest differences are one is they train full
Speaker 2: time now.
Speaker 3: They do have one mandated day.
Speaker 2: Off a week at most clubs, nearly every club they
Speaker 2: have one mandated day.
Speaker 3: Off a week.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're in at the club every single day,
Speaker 2: and so that's that's a huge commitment. But by the
Speaker 2: same token, part of the reason they're in the club
Speaker 2: a lot more is they're working on what they call prehab,
Speaker 2: so habilitating your body before you might get injured. Also,
Speaker 2: recovery from what is a brutal game. You know, you're
Speaker 2: covering a lot of ground, you're twisting and turning, you're jumping,
Speaker 2: you're getting tackled, you're bumping. It's a three hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty degree game, which is quite quite rare, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a very very taxing game. There are much better
Speaker 2: recovery resources available now.
Speaker 3: To the players.
Speaker 2: So that's one big change, I suppose. The other change
Speaker 2: is the publicity side of it. So when I started playing,
Speaker 2: I don't know the exact number of journalists that covered
Speaker 2: the game, but it was quite small, whereas now I'm
Speaker 2: told that for every player, there's the equivalent of four
Speaker 2: accredited media personnel per player, so they're not allocated for
Speaker 2: each but that's just the quantum of a credit to
Speaker 2: media people that cover the game now, so footy shows
Speaker 2: and and of course social media didn't exist at all
Speaker 2: when I first started playing mm hmm, so that's another
Speaker 2: method of publicizing the game. So the attention is very,
Speaker 2: very exacerbated. It's like a microscope over your life the
Speaker 2: whole time. And you know, some of the some of
Speaker 2: the banal.
Speaker 3: Stories that you see about you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I do laugh when the news starts with
Speaker 2: this particular player at this particular club has hurt their hamstring.
Speaker 2: And I mean, in the scheme of things, this means
Speaker 2: that that player is going to miss some weeks, they're
Speaker 2: not going to play for a while.
Speaker 3: But you know, you look, you look at.
Speaker 2: What's going on in the world, and one guy at
Speaker 2: one AFL club, which is a game really only played
Speaker 2: in Australia, he's going to miss two or three games
Speaker 2: because he's heard his hamstring.
Speaker 3: It's not news really, and yet it is. It's big news.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this guy's hamstring. What are they going
Speaker 3: to do?
Speaker 2: So that that is a massive change the way that
Speaker 2: that's covered. Clearly, the compensation for the players, you know,
Speaker 2: the salaries and so on, bumped up markedly.
Speaker 5: And there are some there's good and bad in everything
Speaker 5: sounds like a song, is that there's good and bad
Speaker 5: in everything, and you can you can focus on the
Speaker 5: negatives of the social media and what have you.
Speaker 3: But by the same token, you've.
Speaker 2: Got accessibility now to technically one hundreds of that. Bailey
Speaker 2: Smith has something like, I'm going to get the number wrong,
Speaker 2: but four hundred thousand followers on Instagram.
Speaker 1: Tiff, can you find out for us Tiff Instagram Bailey Smith. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and think about that. He can just he can do
Speaker 1: a little video and talk to four hundred thousand people whenever.
Speaker 3: He wants, every time he does anything on Instagram. However,
Speaker 3: many followers he's got, they technically see it.
Speaker 2: So we're seeing now the opportunity for players to organize
Speaker 2: individual contracts and promotional deals with businesses who are looking
Speaker 2: to reach different audiences, and they've got the capability of
Speaker 2: doing that. So that's that's been a real shift.
Speaker 1: Could you imagine, Andy, could you imagine back in the day,
Speaker 1: what's your answer?
Speaker 4: Tive three hundred and sixty three thousand and a cracking
Speaker 4: six pack.
Speaker 1: Look at this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, one of the reasons why there are so
Speaker 3: many that follow.
Speaker 1: And he's got a new follower by the sounds of it.
Speaker 1: Could you imagine back in could you imagine back in
Speaker 1: the nineties, mate, somebody asking you about your brand and
Speaker 1: your branding.
Speaker 3: By personal branding. No, I can't.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine anyone asking you that. But that's where
Speaker 2: we're at now. And so you know, the world has
Speaker 2: changed a lot. There are some great opportunities or player.
Speaker 1: Hey, and you have a look at Tiff we've lost her.
Speaker 4: I think he trains at PC. I see sometimes with
Speaker 4: one of my mates.
Speaker 3: He's gone down the rabbit hole. Yeah, but this is
Speaker 3: the thing.
Speaker 2: So there are there are there are great opportunities available
Speaker 2: for the modern day player, and but they also have
Speaker 2: to be careful because they're being more watched than ever
Speaker 2: and the world is watching. The eyes of the world
Speaker 2: are upon them. You know. It's great opportunity, but also
Speaker 2: more responsibility. And you know, just just the other the
Speaker 2: other thing I touched on it before, but the club,
Speaker 2: you know, the football departments now are.
Speaker 3: Very very big organizations. Medical teams coaching teams. So we
Speaker 3: have nine senior coaches in the men's program at Hawathorn,
Speaker 3: So there's.
Speaker 2: A senior coach and then eight other coaches and so
Speaker 2: fucking amazing. It's just so different when I played. When
Speaker 2: I first started playing, we had a senior coach and
Speaker 2: we had a reserves coach and that was it. Now
Speaker 2: we had a chairman of selectors, but he he helped
Speaker 2: I suppose pick the side and would come to training
Speaker 2: and so on, and would sit in the box on
Speaker 2: match day. But really you had you had two coaches.
Speaker 2: We had the senior coach and you had the reserves coach.
Speaker 2: So that has really changed the dynamic within the football
Speaker 2: club and the atmosphere and so on.
Speaker 1: It it seems to me that there's been a lot
Speaker 1: more awareness around focus on and attention to, quite rightly
Speaker 1: a psychological and emotional health of the players. And we've
Speaker 1: seen some things happen, very sad things happened recently, which
Speaker 1: shines a light on it shines a light that needs
Speaker 1: to be shine right. But I always I always wondered, mate,
Speaker 1: like the week that a thousand years ago when I
Speaker 1: worked at the Saints, the week that I arrived, Matthew Lapper,
Speaker 1: I think it was Ozzie Jones and Tony Brown arrived, right,
Speaker 1: And they're all eighteen years old and weighed about four
Speaker 1: Jones and Brown yeah yeah, yeah, or weighed about forty
Speaker 1: five kilos each, right, And it's my job to get
Speaker 1: them big and strong and all that. But I remember thinking, like,
Speaker 1: these are boys, these are teenage boys. And I know
Speaker 1: it was different then, but it was. They was still
Speaker 1: playing in front of thirty forty fifty thousand people. And
Speaker 1: they've gone from Matthew Lappan who was like literally six
Speaker 1: one and sixty one kilos, like living in Chiltern with
Speaker 1: eight hundred people or something. Now he's playing at the
Speaker 1: MCG and just the psychological and emotional and sociological adjustment, yes,
Speaker 1: where they're in. No, like these guys are good at footy,
Speaker 1: that's it initially, Like they're drafted. They're drafted for no
Speaker 1: reason other than they're good at football, which is obvious
Speaker 1: and that's not a problem. But I used to always think, man,
Speaker 1: this is such a cataclysmic, bloody jump in their reality
Speaker 1: where everything is about football, as understandably at that point
Speaker 1: in time, but now trying to trying to I guess
Speaker 1: help the people as well as the footballer is a focus.
Speaker 3: It's very important.
Speaker 2: And then you mentioned those three boys, but also think
Speaker 2: about the you know, the indigenous boys, that boys and girls.
Speaker 3: That come into an AFL environment. So if they're coming
Speaker 3: from a remote community, just in fact they're moving into
Speaker 3: a city is a huge adjustment. Yes, let alone getting
Speaker 3: to know forty odd teammates plus coaches, plus all the
Speaker 3: people in the club. It must be a sensory overload initially.
Speaker 2: So the way that they respond to it and integrate
Speaker 2: themselves into a completely different lifestyle, which is what you're saying.
Speaker 3: It's that their whole life changes.
Speaker 2: And then on top of that, they need to be
Speaker 2: able to focus and train and perform in an elite
Speaker 2: sport that's highly competitive. So the combination of those things
Speaker 2: in isolation, sorry, any one of those things in isolation
Speaker 2: would be difficult. You throw the fall in together and
Speaker 2: the combination of those things. It's extraordinary what these young
Speaker 2: men and women have to do to get ready for
Speaker 2: the game. But that's what I guess the game demands,
Speaker 2: and if you're going to become a good player at
Speaker 2: the top level, you need to understand and apply yourself
Speaker 2: and approach it that way.
Speaker 1: So what's the what's the job or what's the role
Speaker 1: of an AFL president, So like, what's what's your like,
Speaker 1: what's required of you? What's your job description?
Speaker 3: How long is this podcast?
Speaker 1: What the fuck do you?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: It's it's my number one role is to run the board,
Speaker 2: lead the board, and so the board of directors at
Speaker 2: every club we're all volunteers. Every every president, every director
Speaker 2: at every AFL club is a volunteer.
Speaker 3: So that's I guess that's number one.
Speaker 2: I guess there are other things that spin off that,
Speaker 2: so there's a lot of time spent with various people
Speaker 2: within the club. So AFL clubs are made up a
Speaker 2: whole mix of areas. So you've got the staff.
Speaker 3: That run the club.
Speaker 2: You've got the playing groups so the aflw and the
Speaker 2: AFL teams. You've got the members. The members we're going
Speaker 2: to push ninety thousand members this year, hopefully more than that,
Speaker 2: so that's a huge cohort.
Speaker 3: You've got coterie coterie groups.
Speaker 2: So they support the club financially and also they're very
Speaker 2: passionate about the team and performance and so on. You've
Speaker 2: got corporate sponsors that are looking for exposure and more
Speaker 2: business as a result of the association with your club.
Speaker 2: You've got the media, you've got the other the other
Speaker 2: club presidents and CEOs and other operators that.
Speaker 3: You know you're part of the same industry.
Speaker 2: That you've got the AFL itself who you deal with
Speaker 2: on a regular basis. So there there are a number
Speaker 2: of groups stakeholders if you like, that need to be
Speaker 2: communicated with, interacted with to some degree managed, So there's
Speaker 2: a there's a constant communication challenge of keeping all of
Speaker 2: those stakeholders engaged, interested, feeling loved, involved, and so that
Speaker 2: there's there's managing all of those relationships and then it's
Speaker 2: I mean the biggest role of the board is to
Speaker 2: make decisions that are in the best just of a club.
Speaker 3: And you've got short, medium and long term decision making.
Speaker 2: So right now, a great example, we are building a
Speaker 2: new home for the Hawthorne Football Club in a suburb
Speaker 2: of Dingley in Melbourne, and it's a it's a north
Speaker 2: of one hundred million dollar exercise, so not.
Speaker 3: An insignificant decision.
Speaker 2: We bought the land, we've developed it and this is
Speaker 2: stage one.
Speaker 3: That we're building. At the moment.
Speaker 2: We'll move in there later this year. I haven't decided
Speaker 2: exactly when that will be it. But that's a very
Speaker 2: long term decision to commit to a new space, developing it,
Speaker 2: developing it properly, working out what everybody needs and wants
Speaker 2: in the in the land, raising the money.
Speaker 3: We're still raising money to pay for that build, and
Speaker 3: so on, things like that. So that's a that's a
Speaker 3: long term decision.
Speaker 2: And there are multiple shorter term decisions that are not
Speaker 2: as consequential, but nevertheless, all that up. So it's a
Speaker 2: combination of all those things, interacting with management making sure
Speaker 2: that they're getting the support that they need from a
Speaker 2: strategic point of view, so the board should be helping
Speaker 2: with strategy and implementation of the strategic plan.
Speaker 3: So there's always back and forth between management and the board.
Speaker 2: M Yeah, they're they're the sort of the main roles
Speaker 2: and in some ways be the figurehead for the club.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: I say figurehead because really our members they want to
Speaker 2: hear from our coach, they want to hear from our
Speaker 2: players mostly now, and then from our CEO who's running
Speaker 2: the club and now, and then from me, who's who's
Speaker 2: I guess the figurehead of the organization.
Speaker 3: So it's a combination of things.
Speaker 2: If you looked at an average week for me, it's
Speaker 2: going to games, it's speaking at home games, it's doing
Speaker 2: the odd media interview, it's updating members, it's interacting with
Speaker 2: management and just making sure things are as much as
Speaker 2: they can be on track.
Speaker 1: Now, this is not a loaded question. Describe no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: For my listeners who are AFL people, Yes, we've got
Speaker 1: overseas listeners of course the IFL Australian Football League. Most
Speaker 1: of my listeners are you know, somewhat familiar, but we're
Speaker 1: not a particularly hardcore sporting podcast per se. So the
Speaker 1: coach of Hawthorne is Sam Mitchell. Tell me about sam Mitchell.
Speaker 1: I think I interviewed him once for seven minutes on
Speaker 1: SCN one hundred years ago. But yes, tell me about
Speaker 1: sam Mitchell, like, what's he like? Tell me about him
Speaker 1: as a coach and a bloke yep.
Speaker 2: So I think the best context I can give you
Speaker 2: about Sam Mitchell is as a player, he battled to.
Speaker 3: Get into the system.
Speaker 2: Initially, he was overlooked at multiple drafts and became a
Speaker 2: mature aid starter in the game and had to work
Speaker 2: his way through the lower level the VFL before he
Speaker 2: got to a far level, and then when he got
Speaker 2: to AFAR level. Wasn't a particularly quick player. In fact,
Speaker 2: that was the knock on him while he was overlooked
Speaker 2: the initial drafts, but an incredible, incredible ball handling skills,
Speaker 2: worked so hard on his craft. He could kick left
Speaker 2: and right foot almost equally as well. Was a great
Speaker 2: connector with other players in the start, so very very
Speaker 2: good at bringing others into the game, and captained a
Speaker 2: premiership side in two thousand and eight, so a really
Speaker 2: good leader, and handed over the captaincy in later years.
Speaker 2: So there's a degree of selflessness of that. You can
Speaker 2: see some players that hang on for quite a while.
Speaker 3: He didn't do that.
Speaker 2: He handed over the reins to Luke Hodge whilst he
Speaker 2: was still playing and then together they played in three
Speaker 2: more premierships for that period. So I think that's a
Speaker 2: good context to describe what kind of person Sam mitchelluz.
Speaker 3: So he's very determined, he's.
Speaker 2: Very you know, he'll do the work he will and
Speaker 2: you know, you see some you see some players not
Speaker 2: become very good coaches because they were so talented they
Speaker 2: probably find it hard to communicate well. Why can't you
Speaker 2: just mark that and kick the goal, because that's what
Speaker 2: they would have done if they were out there. Because
Speaker 2: Sam has fought hard, so hard to get into the
Speaker 2: AFL in the first place, and then made a fantastic
Speaker 2: career and won a Brown Low and multiple Premierships as
Speaker 2: I've said.
Speaker 3: And a whole lot of accolades.
Speaker 2: I think that grounds his coaching, and so he's a
Speaker 2: very I mean, he's a demanding coach on the players,
Speaker 2: but they know that he's gone for what he's gone through,
Speaker 2: so and so he's very respected, very respected coach. He's
Speaker 2: a great communicator, and I think that's one of the
Speaker 2: most important attributes as a coach. You need to be
Speaker 2: able to communicate your message in a clear and concise way,
Speaker 2: which he does. And then I think, you know, as
Speaker 2: a bloke, all those things that I've just talked about
Speaker 2: a mirrored kind of personality that he is.
Speaker 3: You know, he's got a great sense of humor.
Speaker 2: He's a great student, He's studied a lot, he looks
Speaker 2: at other sports, he's done an MBA, he's.
Speaker 3: You know, he's an intelligent guy.
Speaker 2: He really is so good communicator, intelligent, as I said,
Speaker 2: you know, he wasn't gifted any AFL. He worked hard
Speaker 2: to get into the system in the first place, and
Speaker 2: you'd have to say he made the most of it
Speaker 2: and then some.
Speaker 1: So what you're telling the world is he's no Andy Gowers.
Speaker 2: He's a complete opposite to me, that's right, And I
Speaker 2: really admired that about Sam.
Speaker 3: You know, his transition from player to coach. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: he's had a lorded.
Speaker 2: And rightly so aluded playing career, but it wasn't easy,
Speaker 2: you know, he had to battle and became a fantastic
Speaker 2: player and really, look, it's actually something that I reckon
Speaker 2: is a great.
Speaker 3: Lesson for life.
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that we now do
Speaker 2: exceptionally well in AFL football is we help people focus
Speaker 2: on their strengths. And so Sam is not particularly tall,
Speaker 2: so he was never going to be a.
Speaker 3: High marking player.
Speaker 2: So ground ball player, got tons of the foot He
Speaker 2: worked hard, got to lots of contests one is fair
Speaker 2: share of them, and was a very good user of
Speaker 2: the footing and that all came through. Yeah, of course
Speaker 2: he's got some natural talent, all of us do. But
Speaker 2: I think the key with Sam was he worked so
Speaker 2: hard on his game. He always had a footy in
Speaker 2: his hand. He was always mucking around with a footy
Speaker 2: and it's like an extension of his body, you know,
Speaker 2: He's all handling skills were exceptional, and he was able
Speaker 2: to bring others into the game as a result.
Speaker 3: So I really admire that fact and I think it
Speaker 3: informs his coaching every day. I see that.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you know, of course we need coaches
Speaker 1: who are not know a lot about training and conditioning
Speaker 1: and of course football and t have a football brain
Speaker 1: and read the game and be strategic and make great
Speaker 1: decisions and perform under pressure. But also we need coaches
Speaker 1: who have emotional intelligence, situational awareness, social intelligence, and ability
Speaker 1: to understand human behavior and read people, and like, it's
Speaker 1: so much more than just coaching a game of football. Well,
Speaker 1: from the outside looking in, it seems like you could
Speaker 1: have a guy who's great with football, or a woman
Speaker 1: who's great with football for that matter, if we're talking
Speaker 1: about coaches, but shit with people, and they're not going
Speaker 1: to make a great coach despite their natural understanding of
Speaker 1: the game.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's managing human beings is probably your biggest task,
Speaker 2: and so part of that is nuanced but you need
Speaker 2: to understand, well, this particular player, I need to give
Speaker 2: him a needle.
Speaker 3: I need to get him to play his best.
Speaker 2: I have to do it selectively, and I might have
Speaker 2: to keep my power drive for most of the year,
Speaker 2: but I'm I'm going to I'm going to rev him
Speaker 2: up at the right moment if he's not performing the
Speaker 2: way we need him to. He will respond well to
Speaker 2: that in limited doses. But the reality is, and what
Speaker 2: I have found is most people they don't respond very
Speaker 2: well to that. They need to cuddle, They need to
Speaker 2: be they need to be built up, their confidence needs
Speaker 2: to be supported. And it's one of the biggest roles
Speaker 2: of a coach is working at who needs what when,
Speaker 2: And there's the collective when you're addressing the whole site,
Speaker 2: and then the individual.
Speaker 3: Well, you might pull.
Speaker 2: Aside and not You might you may not give the
Speaker 2: needle to that player in public. You might do it privately.
Speaker 2: Or you might say to him, and I've seen this
Speaker 2: happen with other coaches. You might say to him, I'm
Speaker 2: about to give you a rocket here. I'm just giving
Speaker 2: you a heads up in front of the group.
Speaker 3: And then you know there are Yeah.
Speaker 2: My theory is or my My experience is that most
Speaker 2: people don't respond very well to that, So you need
Speaker 2: to be very selective of the type of personality that
Speaker 2: is open to that kind of feedback or that kind
Speaker 2: of method those who aren't. I think Sam he treads
Speaker 2: that that fine line very well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's a unique part of leadership is
Speaker 1: being able to like this actually ties into my PhD
Speaker 1: research without trying to bore everyone senselessly, but there's this
Speaker 1: idea called theory of mind Andy, which is essentially our
Speaker 1: ability to understand how others think, our ability to understand
Speaker 1: how others respond to different stimuli, you know, And like
Speaker 1: I could say something to you and you get pumped
Speaker 1: and you go, yep, right, I'm on it. I say
Speaker 1: the same thing to the bloke to your left and
Speaker 1: he cracks the shits for three days, and the guy
Speaker 1: to your right doesn't know what I'm fucking talking about.
Speaker 1: So it's trying to understand because everyone has their own
Speaker 1: unique communication style. And I think as a coach, you're
Speaker 1: trying to because you might have ten players and you
Speaker 1: know they all are going to respond differently to the
Speaker 1: same thing.
Speaker 2: Well, I learned a great lesson when I was a
Speaker 2: junior coach, coaching my youngest son.
Speaker 3: And they're only little if I was only nine or
Speaker 3: ten of them.
Speaker 2: And I remember I went to a coaching course and
Speaker 2: they talked about the word butt. You've got to be
Speaker 2: very careful with the word butt. And I'll give an example.
Speaker 2: So you say to a young player, Oh, Craig, I
Speaker 2: loved the fact that you ran onto your left foot,
Speaker 2: but your kick was terrible.
Speaker 3: And what that kid hears is the kick was terrible.
Speaker 3: I don't hear the first bit.
Speaker 2: So the advice from the person who was leading this
Speaker 2: course was just change butt to and Craig, I really
Speaker 2: liked what you did when you ran onto your left foot,
Speaker 2: and next time when you do it, if you just
Speaker 2: so it's instructional, they tune in more because you're not
Speaker 2: saying they're waiting for the butt.
Speaker 3: But your kick was terrible.
Speaker 2: You don't say that, you say, and if you actually
Speaker 2: guide the ball a bit further down onto that left foot,
Speaker 2: next time, you'll kick it better and you'll be able
Speaker 2: to find a teammate. And so the difference in the language,
Speaker 2: and that's very subtle example, but it helps so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, mate, we've got to wind up. But at the
Speaker 1: risk of sounding like a sports caster, I'm going to
Speaker 1: ask you. So we're ten rounds in, we're ten weeks in. Yes,
Speaker 1: welcome back to Melbourne's home of sport.
Speaker 2: In.
Speaker 1: We're seven and three. We just got pipped on the weekend.
Speaker 1: How is everything? How's the club? How's the boys? How
Speaker 1: are you? How's the energy? How's the vibe?
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, the ViBe's good. Yes, we did have a
Speaker 2: we got pipped the last game. But we'll know a
Speaker 2: lot more about where we sit as a team after
Speaker 2: the next four game. So we basically play the top
Speaker 2: four sides, so yeah, I won't run through them, but
Speaker 2: we play the top four sides and we're right now
Speaker 2: in fourth position, so it's all the other sides around us,
Speaker 2: and then we have a buy. So by the end
Speaker 2: of that period we'll know, well, we should know roughly
Speaker 2: where we sit in the pecking order, and then it's
Speaker 2: a run into the finals, hopefully for us from there.
Speaker 2: So I would describe the vibe as upbeat, where the
Speaker 2: expectations are high. We are really looking forward to these
Speaker 2: next four games. Then we have a rest and we reset.
Speaker 2: So but look, the club, the club is up and
Speaker 2: about we're celebrating one hundred years this year since entering
Speaker 2: the vfl AFL, and that's a very big milestone. We
Speaker 2: had a fantastic celebration a few rounds ago at the footy.
Speaker 3: We invited every player.
Speaker 2: That has ever played for the club, which was amazing,
Speaker 2: staff and so on, and that was that was an
Speaker 2: amazing day. And yeah, so it's a big year for us.
Speaker 2: We're fairly well positioned, albeit we've got a big test
Speaker 2: the next four weeks. We'll no more at that point
Speaker 2: and we're hopeful that we'll be well placed by the
Speaker 2: time we hit our by.
Speaker 1: Well, mate, I'm giving you a nine out of ten
Speaker 1: on today's podcast and an eight and a half out
Speaker 1: of ten in terms of your performance as president of
Speaker 1: the club, just because I want to give you a
Speaker 1: little bit of room to move.
Speaker 3: I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to get a fat head or
Speaker 1: get ahead of yourself. I'll give you an elephant stamp
Speaker 1: and there's no butt. I'm going to say you did
Speaker 1: a pretty good job today and and I'm sure you
Speaker 1: can do a little better next time. Is there any
Speaker 1: you want anything you want to pump or promote. I
Speaker 1: don't know this is what people tend to do, but
Speaker 1: not normally when I've got presidents of AFL clubs on,
Speaker 1: is there anything you want to push people towards.
Speaker 2: Look, the only thing I would say is if within
Speaker 2: your very large listening audience, and I'm sure they're all
Speaker 2: rusted on, if there are any Hawthorne supporters who are
Speaker 2: not members, it's a great time to get on board
Speaker 2: and support the club and we're going to have an
Speaker 2: exciting I think into the year and hopefully play finals,
Speaker 2: and it's an exciting time of the year and the
Speaker 2: more the merria.
Speaker 3: Basically is what I would say.
Speaker 1: Perfect. Hey Tiff, did we record that or not?
Speaker 4: No, we're going to have to start again.
Speaker 3: Mate.
Speaker 1: We'll say goodbye affair, but for the moment, thanks for
Speaker 1: being on the new project. Good luck for the rest
Speaker 1: of the year. I hope you smash Brisbane on the
Speaker 1: weekend and we'll talk again soon.
Speaker 3: Absolutely pleasure, Craig, thanks so much and thanks Tiff.
Speaker 4: Thank you.