Speaker 1: Now, the turial case was perplexing because there wasn't a
Speaker 1: cleave suspect.
Speaker 2: This is hands rap.
Speaker 1: There was an initial phase searching for the lost child.
Speaker 2: The detective who was in charge of the investigation into
Speaker 2: William Toole's disappearance right from the beginning.
Speaker 1: And that went on for a couple of weeks and
Speaker 1: that bore no fruit at all. So clearly there was
Speaker 1: something more to the situation than a little boy lost
Speaker 1: in the bush.
Speaker 2: But Hans doesn't want to talk to me for this podcast.
Speaker 1: He clearly didn't wander off by himself.
Speaker 2: So this interview you're listening to was conducted by a
Speaker 2: colleague of mine, Caroline Overington, a few years ago now,
Speaker 2: for her own reporting on William's disappearance.
Speaker 1: What is it that prompts that feeling there's something more
Speaker 1: to this? It was the ane logical explanation. He didn't
Speaker 1: wander off. We know he didn't wander off, so what
Speaker 1: else could there be?
Speaker 3: What was your feeling?
Speaker 1: Well, I think that someone grabbed him off the street,
Speaker 1: bundled him into a car, and he just disappeared, which
Speaker 1: is really really sad.
Speaker 2: Hans has got good reason for thinking William was abducted
Speaker 2: for one thing, he's a veteran policeman.
Speaker 1: Look I joined in February of nineteen seventy four, so
Speaker 1: it's been a career of forty one years.
Speaker 2: Forty one years, first in uniform and then as an investigator.
Speaker 1: I went to plane clothes in the late seventies ninety
Speaker 1: seventy nine and I went to the CIBA in nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty two.
Speaker 2: CID means Hans was a detective and he spent the
Speaker 2: decades since carving out a reputation as a tough, hard
Speaker 2: working operator working on the biggest crimes.
Speaker 1: I think it was about nineteen ninety two I went
Speaker 1: to the homicide squad, so effectively for the last thirty years,
Speaker 1: I've investigated bank robbers and murderers.
Speaker 2: Meaning Hans knows what he's talking about, and I don't
Speaker 2: read anything into the fact that he doesn't want to
Speaker 2: talk to me when I call him. It's ten years
Speaker 2: since William Tyrrel was reported missing, and almost ten years
Speaker 2: since Hans himself retired from the New South Wales Police.
Speaker 2: When he was put in charge of the investigation into
Speaker 2: William's disappearance, Hans was only a few months off retirement,
Speaker 2: so he explains he's been out of the loop for
Speaker 2: almost a decade. Talking to Caroline a few years earlier, however,
Speaker 2: Hans still had some strong opinions.
Speaker 1: Murderers don't murder strangers. It's a rear event.
Speaker 2: Murderers don't typically murder strangers. He says.
Speaker 1: People always kill someone they know, whether that's a loving
Speaker 1: relationship or a domestic relationship, or a business relationship that's
Speaker 1: gone bad. Something there's something to tie the offender to
Speaker 1: the victim.
Speaker 2: The detective's job is usually finding out that thing tying
Speaker 2: offender to victim. H except William's case was different.
Speaker 4: That's not your belief.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, this has got nothing to do with the
Speaker 1: chur case at all. Your feeling was always that it
Speaker 1: was the stranger. Absolutely, there was a stranger involved. I
Speaker 1: don't think any member of the family involved at all.
Speaker 2: No, So Hans is certain it was a stranger who
Speaker 2: took William and his family were not involved at all.
Speaker 2: Early decisions are critical in long police investigations. Even though
Speaker 2: Hans worked on William's case for only a few months,
Speaker 2: he still had a massive impact on the years that followed.
Speaker 1: You retired, didn't you after four months on that case?
Speaker 5: So you weren't able to see it through.
Speaker 3: Do you think if you had.
Speaker 1: Would we have a result? That's impossible for me to say.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know when I left it,
Speaker 1: I think it was in good hands.
Speaker 2: Hans says he's happy with the way he left the
Speaker 2: William Tyrell investigation.
Speaker 1: Look, I don't dwell on the ones that got away,
Speaker 1: but look, I'm happy with what I've achieved, and that's
Speaker 1: pretty good. And now this is a different stage of
Speaker 1: my life.
Speaker 2: But not everyone agrees the investigation was in a good
Speaker 2: place when Hans left it. You're about to hear from
Speaker 2: the detective who took it over, the homicide squad commander
Speaker 2: who oversaw this transition, and the man at the very
Speaker 2: center of the police investigation who describes it as a
Speaker 2: poisoned chalice. I'm Dan box and from news dot com
Speaker 2: dot Au. This is Witness William Tyrell Episode seven, Malicious Prosecution.
Speaker 3: Hello, Justing, wonder is rue.
Speaker 6: Good question?
Speaker 3: Um coffee?
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding describes himself as not the kind of man
Speaker 2: to draw attention to himself. He hopes people see him
Speaker 2: as a pretty straightforward guy, an ordinary grandfather. At home,
Speaker 2: he and his wife Margaret drive an ordinary maroon colored
Speaker 2: Ford Fairline which they call Myrtle. But really nothing about
Speaker 2: the Spedding's life has been ordinary over the past ten years.
Speaker 2: I might just wait for Peter. Which is why we're
Speaker 2: meeting not at Bill's home but in the offices of
Speaker 2: his lawyer in Sydney, because within months of William's disappearance,
Speaker 2: Bill would become front page news right across the country,
Speaker 2: and his lawyer is now sitting listening to this interview
Speaker 2: with Bill and Margaret just thinking back to before William
Speaker 2: went missing? What was life like for you then? Was
Speaker 2: it happy?
Speaker 1: Was it going well?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Oh, well it was good at the time. Is business
Speaker 3: was doing well, successful in the community. The kids are
Speaker 3: in the forty teams in their weekend sport. We had
Speaker 3: soccorn Saturdays in IFL on Sundays and middle marvelous group
Speaker 3: of parents and the other children in the teams.
Speaker 2: While they had good friends where they were living. The
Speaker 2: Spedding's family history is complicated. Bill and Margaret have each
Speaker 2: been married before with kids from previous relationships, and there
Speaker 2: had been falling out within their families, some more bitter
Speaker 2: than others. Yes, what were you looking forward to then?
Speaker 3: Well, just retiring down that area.
Speaker 2: That area was the mid north coast of New South Wales.
Speaker 2: The Speddings lived in Bonnie Hills, a village about twenty
Speaker 2: minutes drive from where William was reported missing. Bill worked
Speaker 2: as a white goods repairman, installing air conditioners fixing fridges.
Speaker 2: Three days before William's disappearance, he was called to look
Speaker 2: at the washing machine in a house on a dead
Speaker 2: end road called Bennerun Drive.
Speaker 3: And I just called in there and had to go
Speaker 3: back later on to finish the job off. Our first
Speaker 3: knowledge of the disappearance was by the news newscast that
Speaker 3: evening of the six o'clock news, and there didn't mean
Speaker 3: anything to us other than the fact that a child
Speaker 3: had disappeared in the local community. And the name didn't
Speaker 3: mean anything to me because the name of Dural was
Speaker 3: not my customer's name. So nothing fill into place, nothing twigged.
Speaker 2: Bill would later write a book about what happened, although
Speaker 2: it's never been published. I've got a copy. The book
Speaker 2: says Bill had ordered the parts to fix the washing
Speaker 2: machine and was waiting for them to be delivered when
Speaker 2: he got a call from the house on the morning
Speaker 2: William was reported missing. Bill didn't pick up. When he
Speaker 2: saw the missed call, he called back, no answer. But
Speaker 2: there were other phone calls between Bill and the house
Speaker 2: both that day and later.
Speaker 3: And I was quite surprised and be told mind the police,
Speaker 3: because they rang me and said that I was not
Speaker 3: to mention or disclose that William had disappeared from the house.
Speaker 3: And then I said, well, how was I supposed to
Speaker 3: know that when it wasn't there when I was there.
Speaker 2: Four months later, January twenty fifteen, Bill and Margaret were
Speaker 2: sitting on their back verandah when the police arrived search
Speaker 2: his house.
Speaker 3: The search all of our house. Wasn't that surprise at all,
Speaker 3: No surprise, because so I knew that they were doing
Speaker 3: searches and around the area, and when they turned up,
Speaker 3: we weren't on duely surprise. I thought, well, are fair
Speaker 3: enough the investigating their disappearance and come on in, guys,
Speaker 3: you know, do your thing and we we'll get out
Speaker 3: of your way.
Speaker 2: But the media found out about it.
Speaker 7: Police arrived at their Bonnie Hills home at seven point
Speaker 7: thirty on Tuesday morning. They spent forty eight hours excavating
Speaker 7: the backyard and emptying a sceptic tam.
Speaker 8: Morning Sean, what's the latest on that. We have fresh
Speaker 8: pictures that are coming to you now as we go
Speaker 8: to wear that this is the latest development. It's believed
Speaker 8: this semi rural property is linked to another property that
Speaker 8: was rated yesterday here in Laurenton where we are a
Speaker 8: flat where items were taken there.
Speaker 4: They took computers out, they took a mattress out, and
Speaker 4: they took a ton of stuff out.
Speaker 5: Actually they filled the back of our yard waggon up.
Speaker 7: Detectives have sent away three cars, mobile phones, a mattress
Speaker 7: and computer equipment for forensic testing.
Speaker 2: Those raids and the media reporting would change everything in
Speaker 2: Bell's life.
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that things were so intense except Tom
Speaker 3: when during the first record or police interview and the
Speaker 3: question he was relentless.
Speaker 5: I believe you went to that address better and drive
Speaker 5: Kendall on the twelfth of September twenty fourteen.
Speaker 3: I never went near there.
Speaker 2: This is a recording of Bill Spatting's police interview.
Speaker 5: You were there to fix that washing machine. Perhaps you
Speaker 5: didn't make it to the house because as we know,
Speaker 5: William Tyrrell was wandering around the front yard of his
Speaker 5: grandmother's house on his own he had no supervision bony
Speaker 5: parent at that time for a few minutes.
Speaker 1: We know that.
Speaker 5: Okay, we believe you were there.
Speaker 3: I wasn't there. And the police are really getting upset
Speaker 3: with me because they were asking questions which I had
Speaker 3: no knowledge of the content, and asking what happened to
Speaker 3: certain phone calls? And I said not that. I've got
Speaker 3: no idea.
Speaker 5: I'm telling you on your official records, you've got a
Speaker 5: phone call at nine o three am, but it isn't here.
Speaker 2: Is anything you can tell me about that?
Speaker 5: No, what this indicates to us, So that specific phone
Speaker 5: call you received, you deleted from that.
Speaker 3: Phone You can't delete it.
Speaker 5: You deleted that number. You can deleted that incoming call
Speaker 5: so that when police extracted your phone they wouldn't find
Speaker 5: it in the extraction of the phone. Why is that
Speaker 5: phone call not in your incoming calls on the twelfth
Speaker 5: of September twenty fourteen at nine oh three am, I
Speaker 5: don't know. Did you delete that phone call.
Speaker 3: Now, as far as you can't delete.
Speaker 5: Did you delete that phone call from your telephone number now,
Speaker 5: from your mobile telephone now to show the police that
Speaker 5: that phone call did not occur for whatever reason?
Speaker 3: I don't know I didn't delete anything.
Speaker 2: In his book. Bill says that was the call about
Speaker 2: fixing the washing machine at the house where William was staying.
Speaker 2: He says it didn't show up in his phone records
Speaker 2: because he used the automated answer phone service. Bill pressed
Speaker 2: one oh one to listen to the message, then pressed
Speaker 2: twenty two to redial the number. So it wasn't like
Speaker 2: a normal phone call. But it went beyond asking you
Speaker 2: certain questions. They said to you, we believe that you
Speaker 2: may have grabbed William.
Speaker 5: We believe that you may have grabbed William from that
Speaker 5: front address, from the front yard of that address, may
Speaker 5: have left the area. Then in one knowing, I'm sorry,
Speaker 5: I wasn't they did you take William?
Speaker 3: Til No. I just sat there and thought, what are
Speaker 3: you talking about? I wasn't there.
Speaker 2: Were you frightened?
Speaker 3: Oh? I was bewildered, very much bewildered in the questioning.
Speaker 2: And if Bill says he was bewildered by the questions
Speaker 2: asked in the recorded police interview. What the detectives asked
Speaker 2: him when they turned off the tape must have been
Speaker 2: even more confusing. There was one point when I think
Speaker 2: the police were driving you from your house to the
Speaker 2: police station on that day. In the car, they asked
Speaker 2: you if you knew any pedophiles, yes, and you said,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know the names there people you
Speaker 2: knew from the past, just related. And they said, what
Speaker 2: about Jeffrey meaning Jeffrey Hillsleyy was Bill's former brother in
Speaker 2: law from a previous marriage. At that time, Jeffrey was
Speaker 2: serving a life sentence for raping a ten year old
Speaker 2: girl and murdering her stepfather. But did you think at
Speaker 2: that point they're asking me about pidophiles? Did that start
Speaker 2: to what did you think?
Speaker 3: Then? I was very naive. I was totally overwhelmed, very
Speaker 3: nive about please question me. And I hadn't done anything
Speaker 3: to feel guilty about, and so I'm thinking, well, well,
Speaker 3: they're just asking normal questions.
Speaker 2: After you left the police station that day you interviewed
Speaker 2: for six hours, Yes, and you left the police station.
Speaker 2: And as you left, you've given evidence saying that one
Speaker 2: of the detectives shouted at you, we know you did it,
Speaker 2: We're going to get you. I'm going to arrest you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: this one detective did. And that was a about William Tyrell. Right, Okay,
Speaker 2: So there's a lot to unpack here. At this point,
Speaker 2: all Bill knows is the police have turned up at
Speaker 2: his door, raided his house and later his business office.
Speaker 2: They've driven him away asking about pedophiles and spent six
Speaker 2: hours questioning him, including saying they believe he took William.
Speaker 2: But why are the police so focused on him?
Speaker 9: Well, by this stage, the disappearance of William Terrel had
Speaker 9: saturated the press.
Speaker 2: This is Bill Spedding's lawyer Peter O'Brien speaking in a
Speaker 2: separate interview.
Speaker 9: It had permeated well into the community psyche. It worried appearance,
Speaker 9: It worried anyone in our community who's right minded and
Speaker 9: thinking of that, the welfare of this poor child who
Speaker 9: gone missing in such mysterious circumstances. And the police response
Speaker 9: was naturally and correctly to do whatever they could. The problem,
Speaker 9: I think in some respects with the approach that they
Speaker 9: took is that they focused through heavily on Bill Spedding
Speaker 9: once they had what was probably a distorted piece of
Speaker 9: fabricated information on an anonymous tip.
Speaker 2: That anonymous tip was made within days of William Tyrrell
Speaker 2: being reported missing. According to police records, the cops received
Speaker 2: at least one call claiming Bill has a history of
Speaker 2: alleged involvement in some really awful offenses. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to say what those alleged offenses are, because here's the
Speaker 2: thing about them, they'd already been thrown out in court
Speaker 2: decades early. When a judge said the person making these
Speaker 2: allegations against Bill was quote obsessive, compulsive, and bizarre. It's
Speaker 2: all tied up in that complicated family history and the
Speaker 2: falling outs I mentioned at the start of the episode.
Speaker 2: The judge said this person's evidence quote contained inconsistencies which
Speaker 2: were so numerous that I cannot now take the time
Speaker 2: to refer to them. He also said this person programmed
Speaker 2: and tutored others to make allegations against Bill, allegations the
Speaker 2: judge said he was reasonably satisfied were not true, which
Speaker 2: is a problem because if the police were following that
Speaker 2: anonymous tip, they should have known this, and if they
Speaker 2: didn't know it before they raided Bill's house, they certainly
Speaker 2: should have done so after. Because a copy of the
Speaker 2: court records maintaining the judge's damning demolition of the case
Speaker 2: was seized during the police raid on Bill's office. Looking
Speaker 2: back at it now, how much damage do you think
Speaker 2: that has done to Bill and the people he was
Speaker 2: living with at the.
Speaker 9: Time, Well, incalculable amount of damage. But what it seems
Speaker 9: to have done in this case is put him at
Speaker 9: the center, and entirely by coincidence, for the fact that
Speaker 9: he was a washing machineer Peerman going about his ordinary
Speaker 9: daily work that has brought him to the center of
Speaker 9: the disappearance of a child. That's raised the entirety of
Speaker 9: a stratus concerns.
Speaker 2: That, however, isn't even the worst of it, to my mind.
Speaker 2: The worst thing is that the police raids on Bill's
Speaker 2: house and business, which put his face on the TV
Speaker 2: and the front page of the papers, were launched before
Speaker 2: the cops properly checked Bill's alibi for the morning William
Speaker 2: was reported missing, meaning no one confirmed if Bill actually
Speaker 2: was where he said he was in this statement he
Speaker 2: gave detectives.
Speaker 3: On Friday, the twll Fortember two thousand and fourty I'll
Speaker 3: dropped the boys to the bus stop and went back home.
Speaker 2: That was in the early morning before school. The last
Speaker 2: known photograph of William Tyrell was taken at nine thirty
Speaker 2: seven am at nine forty four. Bill's bank records show
Speaker 2: he bought coffees to him and Margaret at a cafe
Speaker 2: in Lorryton, a town a short drive from where William
Speaker 2: was staying.
Speaker 3: Hunger and I went to the school, assuming at Laura
Speaker 3: and Published School. This would have been about ten am
Speaker 3: and finished at about twelve thirty PM. I spoke with
Speaker 3: some of the parents that were there and also spoke
Speaker 3: to the precibol and one of their teachers.
Speaker 2: After the school assembly, Bill says he went to his offic.
Speaker 3: Which is located a ball Street Lord So I finished
Speaker 3: up of the office cycle pick up the kids from
Speaker 3: school at three thirty. I had no dealings with the
Speaker 3: female foster care as mother family on that day. In fact,
Speaker 3: I had no contact with them from the night of
Speaker 3: the fifteenth September twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2: If Bill's alibi checked out, it was physically pretty much
Speaker 2: impossible for him to be involved in what happened to William.
Speaker 3: They also had my written diary which they had photographed
Speaker 3: and photo cobbied, and in it was quite I had
Speaker 3: appointments written, and I had appointments which were moved around
Speaker 3: so that I could attend the assembly on the twelfth
Speaker 3: of September.
Speaker 2: Did you trust the police at that point.
Speaker 10: I did at first because a little boy went missing
Speaker 10: and I knew they had to look for.
Speaker 3: This little fellow.
Speaker 2: Do you trust them now? No, say that with a smile.
Speaker 2: I'm guessing you weren't always smiling about it. Do you
Speaker 2: trust them?
Speaker 3: Trust them? I had not one way or the other.
Speaker 3: I was just confusers to the what they're up to.
Speaker 2: Bill wasn't the only person wondering what the police were
Speaker 2: up to at this point. It's worth saying these decisions
Speaker 2: who to target and how in major cases don't get
Speaker 2: decided by any one detective. They reported up and signed
Speaker 2: off by senior police commanders. But the detective running the
Speaker 2: investigation into William's disappearance was hands rup Well.
Speaker 1: I think that someone grabbed him off the straight, bundled
Speaker 1: him into a car and he just disappeared.
Speaker 2: And at least one person inside the police force was
Speaker 2: starting to question what Hans was doing. That person was
Speaker 2: another detective. Introduce yourself. Tell me who you are.
Speaker 4: Gary Jubland, retired detective now working in the media.
Speaker 2: But who were you before you retired?
Speaker 4: I was a police officer for thirty four years, specializing
Speaker 4: as a homicide detective.
Speaker 2: That was my passion.
Speaker 1: That was my drive.
Speaker 2: At the time, Hans is planning the raid on Bill Spedding.
Speaker 2: He's only a few weeks off retirement. Gary is due
Speaker 2: to take the case over. When he hears about the planned raid,
Speaker 2: Gary tries to stop it.
Speaker 4: I had concerns before I took it over because the
Speaker 4: whole focus of the investigation that that stage was on
Speaker 4: Bill Spending. They were going to execute the search warrant
Speaker 4: on his place, and once the search warrants executed that
Speaker 4: he would know that we were looking at him. I
Speaker 4: spoke to senior police and said, could we put a
Speaker 4: hold on that and stop that occurring? And I suppose
Speaker 4: I'm over stepping the mark to a degree because I
Speaker 4: wasn't in charge of the job.
Speaker 1: At that time.
Speaker 4: I was putting a place firmly, put him a place
Speaker 4: and told, don't you worry about it now. When you
Speaker 4: take it over, you can then run it the way
Speaker 4: you want to run it.
Speaker 2: So you tried to stop the search warrant being executed? Yes, why?
Speaker 4: Because I didn't believe all the stuff that needed to
Speaker 4: be done. I wanted to approach it a little bit differently,
Speaker 4: not so overtly. I wanted to approach it more covertly.
Speaker 4: Once you've executed the search warrant, you put your hand
Speaker 4: up and said, basically, we think you're the suspect for it.
Speaker 4: I didn't want it to go down that path.
Speaker 2: Gary called up his boss, the homicide squad commander.
Speaker 4: I said, can we find Mick Willing who was at home?
Speaker 2: And then your leave.
Speaker 4: He was a boss and I explained it to him,
Speaker 4: and I was basically told words to the effect of tubes,
Speaker 4: just wait till you take it over.
Speaker 1: Let Hands retire in peace.
Speaker 4: And so I just stepped aside and they did the
Speaker 4: did the search warrant on Bill Spenning's place.
Speaker 2: It's not just Gary Jubilin saying this. His version is
Speaker 2: backed up by the person he spoke to, Michael Willing.
Speaker 2: And you were the homicide commander at the time William
Speaker 2: two or went missing.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Do you remember that happening?
Speaker 1: I do.
Speaker 2: How would you describe.
Speaker 11: Hans Hans You know, old score homicide squad detective Hands
Speaker 11: had an abrupt but really effective style to be honest,
Speaker 11: you know, but he was determined and you know he
Speaker 11: worked up until the last day that he had in
Speaker 11: the detective's office at the homicide squad.
Speaker 2: He was working his backside off. You know, you said
Speaker 2: he was a hard working detective. Was he a good detective?
Speaker 2: How was his management?
Speaker 11: He was a very respected detective, certainly respected across the
Speaker 11: police force, respected within the homicide squad, respected by his team.
Speaker 2: Decision was made under Hands were up to raid Bill's
Speaker 2: home and his office. Were you aware at that point
Speaker 2: whether or not Bill's alibi had been checked? I wasn't
Speaker 2: personally aware.
Speaker 11: I was being advised as the homicide squad commander by
Speaker 11: Hands in terms of what he thought he was working on.
Speaker 2: Did Gary ask you not to do it?
Speaker 11: I recalled Gary in the last days before Hans retired.
Speaker 11: I think I was on leave and Gary wanted to
Speaker 11: jump in and take it straight away.
Speaker 2: Did you tell Gary to leave it, to let the
Speaker 2: raids go ahead and to let Hands retire in peace?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Did the right decision? Looking back? Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 11: You know at the end of the day too, Hans
Speaker 11: was an extremely experienced investigator and I had no doubt
Speaker 11: or no reason to question anything that he was doing.
Speaker 2: But Gary Jubilin kept asking questions.
Speaker 4: So there was no investigation plan on this investigation.
Speaker 2: When you took it over.
Speaker 4: There was no investigation plan. Now I say that with
Speaker 4: a certain tone because I'm so surprised that I consider
Speaker 4: it was the state's highest profile investigation, if not the
Speaker 4: country's most high profile investigation.
Speaker 2: An investigation plans are written document that essentially says how
Speaker 2: we are going to conduct this investigation.
Speaker 4: How are we going to conduct the investigation, and the direction,
Speaker 4: the strategies, the approach to the investigation. That it's like
Speaker 4: a framework for an investigation.
Speaker 2: Do you remember seeing an investigation plan that hands to
Speaker 2: go up.
Speaker 11: I can't specifically recall it, but that's part and parcel
Speaker 11: of any investigation.
Speaker 2: You would have expected that to be one. I would
Speaker 2: have expected there to be one. What were you told
Speaker 2: by your commander when you were given this job.
Speaker 4: My commander, Mick Willing, Detective superintendent at the time, he
Speaker 4: told me that that's a bit of a cluster, meaning
Speaker 4: meaning that I needed to sort it out. When I
Speaker 4: talk it over.
Speaker 2: Did you say to him words to the effect, this
Speaker 2: investigation is a mess. I need you to come in
Speaker 2: and sort it out.
Speaker 11: Look, that's been raised in various actual proceedings. To be honest,
Speaker 11: I can't recall saying that to him. I did have
Speaker 11: concerns about the investigation. I can't recall saying those words.
Speaker 2: Police documents from that time show Gary recorded written concerns
Speaker 2: about the previous running of the investigation into William's disappearance,
Speaker 2: which seemed to have shifted its attention away from and
Speaker 2: back to Bill Spedding over time, possibly to the detriment
Speaker 2: of other lines of inquiry. Gary wrote, but Bill's name
Speaker 2: was out there and it was everywhere in bulletins and
Speaker 2: news reports. Given what had happened, the police records show
Speaker 2: Gary decided to focus on Bill, with quote as many
Speaker 2: resources as are available to gather evidence of his involvement
Speaker 2: or exclude him from involvement. Can I ask you how
Speaker 2: you feel about Gary jubilin there?
Speaker 3: What only name? Was a very aggressive policeman. I don't
Speaker 3: know him personally, and I think he was handed a
Speaker 3: poison chalice. He was handed something that was going to
Speaker 3: cause him a lot of grief.
Speaker 2: Do you remember on the day you were arrested, Yes,
Speaker 2: when in the morning outside your house there was a
Speaker 2: line of cars around the corner which was full of media. Yes,
Speaker 2: I was in one of those cars. This was April
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, a few months after Gary Jubilin took over
Speaker 2: the investigation into William's disappearance. I was a reporter covering
Speaker 2: the case for a newspaper.
Speaker 3: The thing was that I said to Margaret early one,
Speaker 3: there's something up, because there's media everywhere.
Speaker 2: Were apprehensive. At that point.
Speaker 3: I knew something was up, but I had nothing to
Speaker 3: feel guilty about. If I had been a criminal, I'll
Speaker 3: be out there panicky. But I wasn't a criminal, right.
Speaker 3: And the thing is that the media's out there. Why
Speaker 3: are they out there? Oh well, it's another day media
Speaker 3: out there.
Speaker 2: It wasn't just some media out there. All the media
Speaker 2: were out there. A line of cars and TV trucks
Speaker 2: down the road and round the corner, and I was
Speaker 2: in them. I found out Bill Spedding was going to
Speaker 2: be arrested before it happened, from another journalist. Everyone seemed
Speaker 2: to know it was coming. I tried to get Gary
Speaker 2: jubil In to confirm it, but he wouldn't. Sometime in
Speaker 2: the mid morning, Bill left the house and drove off.
Speaker 2: We all panicked. Do you remember when I think you
Speaker 2: left and went into Port Macquarie?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Do you remember what happened?
Speaker 3: Yes? It was an absolute chaos.
Speaker 2: It was chaos. We followed Bill in a convoy. None
Speaker 2: of us knew where he was going or why the
Speaker 2: police hadn't turned up yet to arrest him, but all
Speaker 2: of us were desperate not to miss the next big
Speaker 2: break in the William Tyrrell instigation. And I think at
Speaker 2: one point you sped up to try and get away
Speaker 2: from us, and we were overtaking cars. We may have
Speaker 2: jumped lights. The Sydney Morning Herald nearly crashed into my car,
Speaker 2: and I remember feeling at the time this was basically harassment.
Speaker 2: It was it was I think you got out of
Speaker 2: the car in Port Macquarie and reporters jumped out of
Speaker 2: cars and surrounded you, and then I think you got
Speaker 2: straight back into the car.
Speaker 3: I've thought to yourself, well, we'll just get back in
Speaker 3: the car and go home.
Speaker 2: What was it like driving along the road with a
Speaker 2: convoy of reporters following you?
Speaker 3: What can I know to.
Speaker 2: At one point you're almost lost us. I think you
Speaker 2: went over around about and then a car came around
Speaker 2: and cut us off. But then we sped up, so
Speaker 2: we were breaking speed limits to catch up. Very bad boys, Yeah,
Speaker 2: we were pretty bad that day. But arguably so was
Speaker 2: whoever in the police force tipped off the media that
Speaker 2: Bill was going to be arrested. That's not normal for
Speaker 2: a homicide investigation. Like I said, I heard it from
Speaker 2: another journalist, and Gary Jubilin refused to confirm it. But
Speaker 2: in the years since, he's been the person blamed publicly
Speaker 2: for this leap, including by the state government and more
Speaker 2: than one judge. All of that happened later when the
Speaker 2: decision to arrest Bill Spedding was torn apart in court.
Speaker 2: At this point, I need to be open. Gary Jubilin
Speaker 2: and I go back a long way to before William
Speaker 2: being reported missing, when I was a newspaper reporter covering
Speaker 2: other of his investigations, like the serial killing of three
Speaker 2: children in a town called Bauerville, not far from where
Speaker 2: William would disappear. Years later, I left the paper. Gary
Speaker 2: and I co wrote a couple of books together, which
Speaker 2: were basically his memoirs. After that, I got another job
Speaker 2: working in podcasts, including overseeing one where Gary was the host.
Speaker 2: So he and I get on. We don't always agree,
Speaker 2: and I've told him when I think he's done the
Speaker 2: wrong thing, including on this investigation. He doesn't always listen.
Speaker 2: But given he and I have this history together, the
Speaker 2: question is whether you think I can be fair and
Speaker 2: honest in the way I report on Gary in this podcast.
Speaker 2: All I can do is lay it out for you
Speaker 2: and let you be the judge. It was Gary Jubilin
Speaker 2: who turned up at Bill's house that day to arrest him,
Speaker 2: saying it was historical offenses.
Speaker 10: When they took him away, I just lost it. I
Speaker 10: didn't know what I was doing. I locked myself in
Speaker 10: the house for days. I wasn't a game to go
Speaker 10: outside because of the media and everything.
Speaker 2: Did the media treat you fairly?
Speaker 3: Yeah? They just were there.
Speaker 10: We couldn't move, We couldn't go anywhere. They were following
Speaker 10: us everywhere every day, and every morning we'd get up,
Speaker 10: they'd be at the front.
Speaker 2: How bad did it get with the way people treated
Speaker 2: you after your name was made public?
Speaker 3: We were in a fish birdcage or a fish tank.
Speaker 3: Everyone steering in like just coming down to court.
Speaker 10: You could see people being on the TV and the
Speaker 10: papers and you could see them steering.
Speaker 2: This wasn't only local news. Bill's name and face were
Speaker 2: plastered across the country after he was arrested. I was
Speaker 2: in the media pack the next day for his first
Speaker 2: court appearance. Afterwards, outside the court, someone from the police
Speaker 2: gave all of the journalists photocopies of a court document
Speaker 2: describing in graphic detail the Offense's police were saying, Bill
Speaker 2: committed Did you know that was happening?
Speaker 3: No, of course not.
Speaker 2: In that court document were the same allegations that had
Speaker 2: come up already decades earlier and had been dismissed once
Speaker 2: before by a judge. And no, it wasn't Gary jubilin
Speaker 2: handing out that document though.
Speaker 3: We're using that as a leverage or pressure or something
Speaker 3: to create inverted como's a breakthrough.
Speaker 2: The story exploded. What was the worst of it?
Speaker 3: Holding the car with mag and this fellow got out
Speaker 3: of the car in front and made the gun symbol
Speaker 3: at me.
Speaker 10: And what about the pathology?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I was just called a little the bothologist.
Speaker 2: Yes you asked to leave?
Speaker 3: Oh yes, yes, he read it.
Speaker 10: His name Bill Spidding.
Speaker 2: How did your business go?
Speaker 3: When? When? And wait to be gone? It dropped to
Speaker 3: nothing almost over night.
Speaker 2: So your business is gone. This means your income's gone? Yes,
Speaker 2: I mean what does that do to you in terms of.
Speaker 3: Well financially we're screwed.
Speaker 2: After a few months, Bill got bail, meaning he was
Speaker 2: released from prison while waiting for a trial to take place.
Speaker 2: Things got so bad he and Margaret moved house, but
Speaker 2: his name was now tied up in the public imagination
Speaker 2: with William's disappearance.
Speaker 1: I really would appreciate if you were never out the
Speaker 1: front of the children around.
Speaker 4: You will not do any if you see children.
Speaker 2: A neighbor told Bill she didn't want him outside with
Speaker 2: her children.
Speaker 6: I just would like to.
Speaker 11: Know that you would never have a myyeball out here
Speaker 11: in case you're bringing my children, if you're viewing any
Speaker 11: of my children or their friends.
Speaker 1: I don't want the minds open while I'm playing out because.
Speaker 5: I just don't want you around when there's so many
Speaker 5: children here.
Speaker 2: Somehow strangers got hold of Bill's phone number. He got
Speaker 2: death threats. Bill reported these threats to the police, but
Speaker 2: nothing happened. One day, walking down the road, a man
Speaker 2: asked if he was Bill Spedding. Bill said yes, and
Speaker 2: the man lurched towards him, grabbing Bill's throat. Bill reported
Speaker 2: this to the police as well. He doesn't know if
Speaker 2: anyone got charged.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 10: It's just been.
Speaker 3: Just been a lot on us.
Speaker 10: The kids are still feeling it as much as what
Speaker 10: we did.
Speaker 2: Bill's wife, Margaret says the worst impact was on the kids.
Speaker 10: Because they were happy when they were with us, they
Speaker 10: were really good, but after they just sort of went downhill.
Speaker 2: Bill was prevented from seeing the kids after the first
Speaker 2: police raid after being arrested. His bail conditions stopped him
Speaker 2: from seeing any children. They weren't happy before William went missing.
Speaker 2: Those kids who were living with you, were they doing well,
Speaker 2: very well? They were done well at school.
Speaker 10: The teachers just loved them and loved the work we're
Speaker 10: doing with them.
Speaker 2: And did it then have an impact on them as well?
Speaker 3: Did Big Time? Yes?
Speaker 2: Your terrible impact in one way.
Speaker 3: Well, they were pulled out from the stable home do
Speaker 3: a completely unstable environment. They were severed from their friends,
Speaker 3: severed from their sporting activities, their family which was us,
Speaker 3: and there was a lot of rebellion generated because of that.
Speaker 2: So all that time between the original raid on your
Speaker 2: house and the end of the child, which I think
Speaker 2: was about three years, you couldn't talk to.
Speaker 3: Them, well, I was prohibited from contacting anyone under eighteen.
Speaker 2: Has that had an impact on your relationship with.
Speaker 3: Them, with the children when they were deafer, say.
Speaker 10: Don't you Yeah, Well, they keep saying while they were
Speaker 10: with us, they'd never been so happy when they were
Speaker 10: living with us, and then when that got taken away,
Speaker 10: they went downhill.
Speaker 2: So if you're counting up the number of lives damaged
Speaker 2: by the investigation into William Tirell's disappearance, you have to
Speaker 2: add these four kids as well. All that damage might
Speaker 2: be one thing if Bill was found guilty of the
Speaker 2: offenses he was charged with, But on the fifth of
Speaker 2: March twenty eighteen, three years after the first police raid
Speaker 2: on his house, Bill Spedding was found not guilty. Four
Speaker 2: years later, December twenty twenty two, he was awarded almost
Speaker 2: two million dollars in compensation by the New South Wales
Speaker 2: Supreme Court, which found quote there was no reasonable or
Speaker 2: probable cause to institute or maintain the criminal prosecution against
Speaker 2: mister Spedding, and the material available supported an overwhelming inference
Speaker 2: that the allegations were concocted and false. The court directly
Speaker 2: criticized the police involved, saying quote the officers had material
Speaker 2: that must and certainly should have led them to doubt
Speaker 2: the viability of the case.
Speaker 6: Hey, Gary, can you hear me?
Speaker 2: Yes, Dan, I'm not in the country at the time
Speaker 2: of the court's decision, so I talked to Gary Jubilin
Speaker 2: on a zoom call.
Speaker 6: You sound like you have got a lot on ah.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 6: Have you had time in order that to read through
Speaker 6: the judgment in the Bill Spedding matter.
Speaker 4: Yeah, eighty seven pages, so by playing through what I
Speaker 4: consider relevant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Gary Dubilin oversaw the investigation into William Tyrell's disappearance,
Speaker 2: but he wasn't the officer in charge of the prosecution
Speaker 2: of Bill Spedding over these separate offenses. That was a
Speaker 2: more junior detective who was part of Gary's strike force.
Speaker 2: And everything the strike force did was written up in
Speaker 2: progress reports, dozens of them, signed off by senior commanders,
Speaker 2: and the decision to charge Bill Spedding was assessed by
Speaker 2: other specialist detectives and the police force's own lawyers. But
Speaker 2: it's Gary's name that keeps coming up for criticism in
Speaker 2: the court's judgment.
Speaker 4: It seems to be that the essence of the judge's
Speaker 4: decision is that I and I say I because it
Speaker 4: does a lot seems to come beck.
Speaker 2: On me in essence, the court found gary Strikeforce charged
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding with other unrelated offenses, offenses that had already
Speaker 2: been rejected decades earlier by another judge as a way
Speaker 2: of putting pressure on Bill to see if he or
Speaker 2: someone close to him would crack about William.
Speaker 4: I've been at Corbyn door camp. From what junior officers
Speaker 4: are doing under my command, no one above me has
Speaker 4: been carbynt A camp what.
Speaker 1: I was doing.
Speaker 6: So there's a document the judge flags which you wrote,
Speaker 6: called the Strikeforce Roseanne proposed Operational Phase. But what bothers
Speaker 6: me about it is that describes the arrest of Bill
Speaker 6: Spedding as being phase five in a series of phases
Speaker 6: that are part of the investigation into what happened with
Speaker 6: William Tyrol. So it very much looks in that document
Speaker 6: that you are arresting Bill Spedding on these unrelated offenses
Speaker 6: as part of your investigation into what happened to William. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I mean in that document it absolutely looks like that's
Speaker 6: the case.
Speaker 4: Okay, And to answer that this is a chicken before
Speaker 4: the egg and I'm not making this offense up. These
Speaker 4: are serious offenses. So yes, I'm going to use the
Speaker 4: fact that we've got primer facy case on a person
Speaker 4: that in the timing of it, it is a fase.
Speaker 4: But that to me, and this is what really agrees
Speaker 4: me about this decision. I think that was some of
Speaker 4: the best police work I've done in my career. I
Speaker 4: had to there were so many moving parts, but I'm
Speaker 4: using every available resource, technique and strategy I had available
Speaker 4: to me.
Speaker 6: You can't do that though, as a cop, can you
Speaker 6: You can't charge someone with unrelated offenses in order to
Speaker 6: pursue a different investigation.
Speaker 4: Let me say this, if you're going to have to
Speaker 4: charge that person, do you think it's acceptable that if
Speaker 4: I charged Bill Spending, I didn't have a conversation with
Speaker 4: him after that point in time about William Terrell? Do
Speaker 4: you think I should have just charging Because this is
Speaker 4: where I think it comes down to.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I'm saying you can't do what you say
Speaker 2: you did, and you're saying I couldn't have done the alternative.
Speaker 2: I would have been wrong not to charge him and
Speaker 2: not ask him about William.
Speaker 4: I could imagine being in the coroner's court with the
Speaker 4: family looking at this investigation and being asked, so you
Speaker 4: were looking for the person responsible for abducting a three
Speaker 4: our child. Yes, and there was a person of interest
Speaker 4: that you were looking at, Yes, and you didn't think
Speaker 4: it was worthwhile speaking to him about the abduction case.
Speaker 2: Like Unsurprisingly, Bill Spedding's lawyer feels differently about this.
Speaker 9: That suggestion by Gary Jubilan that the matters were distinct
Speaker 9: that he was going to bring there on charges that
Speaker 9: were already open to charge has been made a nonsense
Speaker 9: of Now, I don't understand that if police officers have
Speaker 9: someone that they suspect for one thing, and they have
Speaker 9: reasonable and probable cause to charge them with another thing,
Speaker 9: that they might well bring those charges in order to
Speaker 9: put pressure.
Speaker 1: But that wasn't this case.
Speaker 9: This was a case where the chargers have been demonstrated
Speaker 9: to have been probably false and should never have.
Speaker 2: Been laid, and that is what the court found. Reading
Speaker 2: through the judgment, you can see the alleged victims accounts
Speaker 2: of what happened change. A crucial eyewitness refuses to cooperate
Speaker 2: with the police for months, and when he finally does,
Speaker 2: his evidence is that the offenses didn't happen.
Speaker 9: The case fell away. The case fell away as long
Speaker 9: as as it went. But there was also a failue
Speaker 9: to disclose by place.
Speaker 2: The different problems with the case are not all included
Speaker 2: in police documents, including those provided to the prosecution lawyers.
Speaker 9: The failed to disclose demonstrated further, the court found the
Speaker 9: malice that had initially swept them up.
Speaker 2: Although the person described in the court judgment as having
Speaker 2: failed to disclose this information isn't Gary Jubilin. Gary was
Speaker 2: in overall command.
Speaker 6: Okay, just to put some of the things you are
Speaker 6: alleged done to you, and these are things you alleged
Speaker 6: to have done directly rather than as a super The
Speaker 6: judge says that you or someone working for you leaked
Speaker 6: to the media that Bill Spedding was going.
Speaker 1: To be arrested.
Speaker 4: Yeah, out, both you and I.
Speaker 6: Know that is a joke. Well, I know you didn't
Speaker 6: lead to me because I was trying to get you
Speaker 6: to tell me and you wouldn't tell me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: When I found out that the media were there, I said,
Speaker 4: someone from above has leaked this.
Speaker 6: So you're sure you're saying it was leaked by somebody
Speaker 6: above you? Yes, So, Bill Spedding says, at one point
Speaker 6: when you came to arrest him, he was actually on
Speaker 6: the phone to his solicitor, and he said this to you,
Speaker 6: and you said, I don't care what fucking cunt you
Speaker 6: have on the phone. I can believe you're using that language.
Speaker 4: I probably would run the pub when I'm arresting someone
Speaker 4: and doing that doing place work that wouldn't be used.
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding's draft book describes the moment when he was
Speaker 2: arrested by Gary, but doesn't mention Gary using this language,
Speaker 2: which is something that was claimed later in court. Nor
Speaker 2: does Bill's book describe something else said in court that
Speaker 2: Gary threatened Bill, saying mister nice washing machine man, I
Speaker 2: am going to ruin you.
Speaker 6: I can see you saying, mister nice washing machine repairer.
Speaker 4: I can't recall saying that. I can't just but I
Speaker 4: put it in the context of a conversation. I am
Speaker 4: trying to find a three year old boy that could
Speaker 4: possibly be alive. So it wasn't a it wasn't an
Speaker 4: inappropriate conversation, but it wasn't a comfortable conversation. And I
Speaker 4: think that's the way.
Speaker 6: What you were saying you didn't say, is the bit
Speaker 6: that is a threat, I am going to ruin you.
Speaker 4: I can't make any threat, promise or inducement.
Speaker 2: Who said what is really a relatively minor issue. The
Speaker 2: fact is the court found Bill Spedding should not have
Speaker 2: been prosecuted in the first place, and that once he
Speaker 2: had been, that prosecution should never have continued, and that
Speaker 2: the result did in Bill's life. Bill's own book wasn't
Speaker 2: read out in the Supreme Court, but our book was
Speaker 2: the one Gary and I wrote together. In it, we
Speaker 2: described how Gary wrestled with this decision about charging Bill Spedding.
Speaker 2: We wrote, quote, I'm about to pull the trigger on
Speaker 2: a guy's life. Get it wrong and I'd destroy him.
Speaker 2: The judge found Jubilin knew if he got it wrong,
Speaker 2: it would destroy mister Spedding. The public linking of his
Speaker 2: name to the William Tyrell investigation was one thing. Jubilin
Speaker 2: knew exactly what he was doing. If he got it wrong,
Speaker 2: it would destroy him, and it did destroy him. Looking back,
Speaker 2: I think that book we wrote together hurt Gary because
Speaker 2: it was honest. In time, the Supreme Court's verdict would
Speaker 2: be upheld by the Appeal Court, which described the pursuit
Speaker 2: of Bill Spedding as the worst case of malicious prosecution
Speaker 2: in the history of New South Wales.
Speaker 9: Is in fact the highest award of damages in the
Speaker 9: country for a malicious prosecution in those circumstances. Well, the
Speaker 9: judges got it right.
Speaker 2: That's Bill Spedding's lawyer, Peter O'Brien, Gary himself is unrepentant.
Speaker 2: My last question, given what you now know in the
Speaker 2: damage Bill Spedding says he's suffered, do you feel sorry
Speaker 2: for Bill Spedding.
Speaker 4: I don't want people. If people do listen to this,
Speaker 4: I don't want them to misinterpret that we're going to
Speaker 4: accept the ruling of the court. But me personally, no,
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 2: But that's not the end of the story. After Bill
Speaker 2: was arrested and before he was found not guilty, he
Speaker 2: spent time in Cesnox jail, a few hours south of
Speaker 2: Kendall where William went missing. Bill's cellmate was a man
Speaker 2: called Tony Jones. And in jail, you were putting a
Speaker 2: cell with a guy called Tony Jones who used to
Speaker 2: be a neighbor of Bill's from years before.
Speaker 3: And I hadn't seen or heard of him since, and
Speaker 3: I didn't recognize him. He had a bid put on way.
Speaker 2: Tony was serving time for child sex offenses.
Speaker 3: I said, doing what's what you said? We're probably being recorded.
Speaker 2: Their conversations were recorded. It was another of Gary Jublin's operations.
Speaker 2: Tony Jones had been given a script to work to
Speaker 2: and a bunch of false documents claiming to show police
Speaker 2: had new technology that allowed them to track where somebody
Speaker 2: had been years earlier using them mobile phone. So the
Speaker 2: police were listening to the conversation when Bill said, well,
Speaker 2: that means they'll be able to tell I wasn't anywhere
Speaker 2: near the house on the morning William went missing. It's
Speaker 2: there in the internal police records from the time. Gary
Speaker 2: Jublin updates the investigation plan to say that he accepts
Speaker 2: on the balance of probabilities, Bill Spedding was not involved
Speaker 2: in William's disappearance and the police now needed to refocus
Speaker 2: the investigation on someone else. In his unpublished book, Bill
Speaker 2: lays out different theories of what might have happened to
Speaker 2: William and concludes this case has all the hallmarks of
Speaker 2: a targeted abduction, So we've ended up in the same place.
Speaker 2: This episode started with the first detective who oversaw the
Speaker 2: raid on Bill's home, hands Rupp, who also says it
Speaker 2: was an abduction.
Speaker 1: It was the anly logical explanation. He didn't wander off.
Speaker 1: We know he didn't wander off, so what else could
Speaker 1: there be?
Speaker 3: What was your feeling?
Speaker 1: Well, I think that someone grabbed him off the street,
Speaker 1: bundled him into a car and he just disappeared, which
Speaker 1: is really really sad.
Speaker 2: How much of you lost over the course of this process? Uge,
Speaker 2: what's your overwhelming emotion.
Speaker 3: I'm tired, very tired. I'm just the whole lot to
Speaker 3: go away, Margaret.
Speaker 2: I'm glad it's over? Is it over?
Speaker 3: Isn't it? We don't know.
Speaker 2: You once said that you said that there should be
Speaker 2: a parliamentary inquiry into the way the investigation of William's
Speaker 2: disappearance has been conducted.
Speaker 3: I think so. I think the myth is should be.
Speaker 2: Do you know the one other person who also thinks
Speaker 2: there should be a parliamentary inquiry into this investigation, it's
Speaker 2: Gary Jubilin.
Speaker 3: I think so, because he was allowed to do what
Speaker 3: he was what he did, so it goes up to
Speaker 3: the higher police hierarchy that he was submitting his plan
Speaker 3: of action to his superiors, and at no point was
Speaker 3: a plan of action questioned, So maybe they should be
Speaker 3: the inquiry into.
Speaker 2: That so it goes up to the senior police. Yes,
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding is an old man now and has spent
Speaker 2: several years in different courtrooms since William was reported missing.
Speaker 2: In the appeal court last year, I noticed he now
Speaker 2: wears a hearing aid and sat often with his eyes closed,
Speaker 2: his head nodding forward as the court chewed over his
Speaker 2: malicious prosecution. But what struck me listening to the details
Speaker 2: of how Bill was put under pressure by the media,
Speaker 2: by the public, put under surveillance, charged with other offenses,
Speaker 2: and had his old neighbor sent in undercover. Wasn't that
Speaker 2: this was a straightforward, mistaken police investigation, but rather this
Speaker 2: was a playbook, a set of tactics that the police
Speaker 2: would use again and again in the William Tyrrell investigation.
Speaker 2: Because even while Bill Spedding was still awaiting trial, the
Speaker 2: lead detective Gary Jubelin, had moved on, had refocused, and
Speaker 2: was working on another potential suspect. He once told me
Speaker 2: that when you're working a homicide investigation, you're going like
Speaker 2: a bulldozer and people will get hurt. Yep, what did
Speaker 2: you mean by that?
Speaker 4: The very nature of homicide investigation if people think you
Speaker 4: can tip toe rend the homicide investigation.
Speaker 2: You're living in La La Land.
Speaker 4: Homicide investigation is about finding out what's happened. I'm not
Speaker 4: talking about breaking rules here or going too far. I'm
Speaker 4: talking about you've got to go after a person. You've
Speaker 4: got to hunt that person, find that person and gather
Speaker 4: the evidence. And to do that, you're going to hurt people.
Speaker 2: That's next time on Witness William Tyrrel. A lot of
Speaker 2: different people have been involved in making this series. Among them,
Speaker 2: the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was
Speaker 2: by Tiffany Demack. The pre pro juicers have been Emily Pigeon,
Speaker 2: Nicholas Adams, Jazz Bar, Phoebe Zakowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson.
Speaker 2: Research by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor. Our
Speaker 2: lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at news dot com
Speaker 2: dot Au is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan Box