1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,320
Speaker 1: Now, the turial case was perplexing because there wasn't a

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:04,359
Speaker 1: cleave suspect.

3
00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:06,280
Speaker 2: This is hands rap.

4
00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:11,320
Speaker 1: There was an initial phase searching for the lost child.

5
00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,280
Speaker 2: The detective who was in charge of the investigation into

6
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,320
Speaker 2: William Toole's disappearance right from the beginning.

7
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:20,680
Speaker 1: And that went on for a couple of weeks and

8
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,759
Speaker 1: that bore no fruit at all. So clearly there was

9
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,319
Speaker 1: something more to the situation than a little boy lost

10
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:28,040
Speaker 1: in the bush.

11
00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,840
Speaker 2: But Hans doesn't want to talk to me for this podcast.

12
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,559
Speaker 1: He clearly didn't wander off by himself.

13
00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,839
Speaker 2: So this interview you're listening to was conducted by a

14
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,600
Speaker 2: colleague of mine, Caroline Overington, a few years ago now,

15
00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,919
Speaker 2: for her own reporting on William's disappearance.

16
00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,199
Speaker 1: What is it that prompts that feeling there's something more

17
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,600
Speaker 1: to this? It was the ane logical explanation. He didn't

18
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 1: wander off. We know he didn't wander off, so what

19
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:57,160
Speaker 1: else could there be?

20
00:00:58,480 --> 00:00:59,360
Speaker 3: What was your feeling?

21
00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 1: Well, I think that someone grabbed him off the street,

22
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 1: bundled him into a car, and he just disappeared, which

23
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:07,320
Speaker 1: is really really sad.

24
00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,160
Speaker 2: Hans has got good reason for thinking William was abducted

25
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 2: for one thing, he's a veteran policeman.

26
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,560
Speaker 1: Look I joined in February of nineteen seventy four, so

27
00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,640
Speaker 1: it's been a career of forty one years.

28
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,200
Speaker 2: Forty one years, first in uniform and then as an investigator.

29
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,080
Speaker 1: I went to plane clothes in the late seventies ninety

30
00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,119
Speaker 1: seventy nine and I went to the CIBA in nineteen

31
00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:32,680
Speaker 1: eighty two.

32
00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,840
Speaker 2: CID means Hans was a detective and he spent the

33
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,480
Speaker 2: decades since carving out a reputation as a tough, hard

34
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 2: working operator working on the biggest crimes.

35
00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:48,760
Speaker 1: I think it was about nineteen ninety two I went

36
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,080
Speaker 1: to the homicide squad, so effectively for the last thirty years,

37
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 1: I've investigated bank robbers and murderers.

38
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,640
Speaker 2: Meaning Hans knows what he's talking about, and I don't

39
00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 2: read anything into the fact that he doesn't want to

40
00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 2: talk to me when I call him. It's ten years

41
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,360
Speaker 2: since William Tyrrel was reported missing, and almost ten years

42
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 2: since Hans himself retired from the New South Wales Police.

43
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 2: When he was put in charge of the investigation into

44
00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 2: William's disappearance, Hans was only a few months off retirement,

45
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,120
Speaker 2: so he explains he's been out of the loop for

46
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:29,400
Speaker 2: almost a decade. Talking to Caroline a few years earlier, however,

47
00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,200
Speaker 2: Hans still had some strong opinions.

48
00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,919
Speaker 1: Murderers don't murder strangers. It's a rear event.

49
00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,280
Speaker 2: Murderers don't typically murder strangers. He says.

50
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,959
Speaker 1: People always kill someone they know, whether that's a loving

51
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 1: relationship or a domestic relationship, or a business relationship that's

52
00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 1: gone bad. Something there's something to tie the offender to

53
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:53,639
Speaker 1: the victim.

54
00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:58,240
Speaker 2: The detective's job is usually finding out that thing tying

55
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:04,440
Speaker 2: offender to victim. H except William's case was different.

56
00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 4: That's not your belief.

57
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,799
Speaker 1: No, absolutely, this has got nothing to do with the

58
00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 1: chur case at all. Your feeling was always that it

59
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,280
Speaker 1: was the stranger. Absolutely, there was a stranger involved. I

60
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,280
Speaker 1: don't think any member of the family involved at all.

61
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:23,120
Speaker 2: No, So Hans is certain it was a stranger who

62
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,720
Speaker 2: took William and his family were not involved at all.

63
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,799
Speaker 2: Early decisions are critical in long police investigations. Even though

64
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,880
Speaker 2: Hans worked on William's case for only a few months,

65
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:40,920
Speaker 2: he still had a massive impact on the years that followed.

66
00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,480
Speaker 1: You retired, didn't you after four months on that case?

67
00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,400
Speaker 5: So you weren't able to see it through.

68
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:49,600
Speaker 3: Do you think if you had.

69
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,840
Speaker 1: Would we have a result? That's impossible for me to say.

70
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I know when I left it,

71
00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 1: I think it was in good hands.

72
00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 2: Hans says he's happy with the way he left the

73
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 2: William Tyrell investigation.

74
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 1: Look, I don't dwell on the ones that got away,

75
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,040
Speaker 1: but look, I'm happy with what I've achieved, and that's

76
00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,280
Speaker 1: pretty good. And now this is a different stage of

77
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:12,760
Speaker 1: my life.

78
00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 2: But not everyone agrees the investigation was in a good

79
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,600
Speaker 2: place when Hans left it. You're about to hear from

80
00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,560
Speaker 2: the detective who took it over, the homicide squad commander

81
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,719
Speaker 2: who oversaw this transition, and the man at the very

82
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,560
Speaker 2: center of the police investigation who describes it as a

83
00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,599
Speaker 2: poisoned chalice. I'm Dan box and from news dot com

84
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:50,120
Speaker 2: dot Au. This is Witness William Tyrell Episode seven, Malicious Prosecution.

85
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,039
Speaker 3: Hello, Justing, wonder is rue.

86
00:04:58,480 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 6: Good question?

87
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 3: Um coffee?

88
00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,720
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding describes himself as not the kind of man

89
00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,599
Speaker 2: to draw attention to himself. He hopes people see him

90
00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,840
Speaker 2: as a pretty straightforward guy, an ordinary grandfather. At home,

91
00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,799
Speaker 2: he and his wife Margaret drive an ordinary maroon colored

92
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:25,279
Speaker 2: Ford Fairline which they call Myrtle. But really nothing about

93
00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:29,279
Speaker 2: the Spedding's life has been ordinary over the past ten years.

94
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:39,120
Speaker 2: I might just wait for Peter. Which is why we're

95
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,159
Speaker 2: meeting not at Bill's home but in the offices of

96
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,479
Speaker 2: his lawyer in Sydney, because within months of William's disappearance,

97
00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,360
Speaker 2: Bill would become front page news right across the country,

98
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,200
Speaker 2: and his lawyer is now sitting listening to this interview

99
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,240
Speaker 2: with Bill and Margaret just thinking back to before William

100
00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,640
Speaker 2: went missing? What was life like for you then? Was

101
00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:03,160
Speaker 2: it happy?

102
00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:04,160
Speaker 1: Was it going well?

103
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 6: Yeah?

104
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,479
Speaker 3: Oh, well it was good at the time. Is business

105
00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,400
Speaker 3: was doing well, successful in the community. The kids are

106
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,560
Speaker 3: in the forty teams in their weekend sport. We had

107
00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:23,440
Speaker 3: soccorn Saturdays in IFL on Sundays and middle marvelous group

108
00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,880
Speaker 3: of parents and the other children in the teams.

109
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,839
Speaker 2: While they had good friends where they were living. The

110
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:36,080
Speaker 2: Spedding's family history is complicated. Bill and Margaret have each

111
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:40,279
Speaker 2: been married before with kids from previous relationships, and there

112
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 2: had been falling out within their families, some more bitter

113
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,159
Speaker 2: than others. Yes, what were you looking forward to then?

114
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,880
Speaker 3: Well, just retiring down that area.

115
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,760
Speaker 2: That area was the mid north coast of New South Wales.

116
00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,719
Speaker 2: The Speddings lived in Bonnie Hills, a village about twenty

117
00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,799
Speaker 2: minutes drive from where William was reported missing. Bill worked

118
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 2: as a white goods repairman, installing air conditioners fixing fridges.

119
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,160
Speaker 2: Three days before William's disappearance, he was called to look

120
00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 2: at the washing machine in a house on a dead

121
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 2: end road called Bennerun Drive.

122
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 3: And I just called in there and had to go

123
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,760
Speaker 3: back later on to finish the job off. Our first

124
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:34,640
Speaker 3: knowledge of the disappearance was by the news newscast that

125
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 3: evening of the six o'clock news, and there didn't mean

126
00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,200
Speaker 3: anything to us other than the fact that a child

127
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:48,960
Speaker 3: had disappeared in the local community. And the name didn't

128
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:52,400
Speaker 3: mean anything to me because the name of Dural was

129
00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:56,960
Speaker 3: not my customer's name. So nothing fill into place, nothing twigged.

130
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 2: Bill would later write a book about what happened, although

131
00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 2: it's never been published. I've got a copy. The book

132
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 2: says Bill had ordered the parts to fix the washing

133
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 2: machine and was waiting for them to be delivered when

134
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,840
Speaker 2: he got a call from the house on the morning

135
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,520
Speaker 2: William was reported missing. Bill didn't pick up. When he

136
00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 2: saw the missed call, he called back, no answer. But

137
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,440
Speaker 2: there were other phone calls between Bill and the house

138
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,920
Speaker 2: both that day and later.

139
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 3: And I was quite surprised and be told mind the police,

140
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,760
Speaker 3: because they rang me and said that I was not

141
00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 3: to mention or disclose that William had disappeared from the house.

142
00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 3: And then I said, well, how was I supposed to

143
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,679
Speaker 3: know that when it wasn't there when I was there.

144
00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,920
Speaker 2: Four months later, January twenty fifteen, Bill and Margaret were

145
00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,520
Speaker 2: sitting on their back verandah when the police arrived search

146
00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 2: his house.

147
00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 3: The search all of our house. Wasn't that surprise at all,

148
00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,200
Speaker 3: No surprise, because so I knew that they were doing

149
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:14,079
Speaker 3: searches and around the area, and when they turned up,

150
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 3: we weren't on duely surprise. I thought, well, are fair

151
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,960
Speaker 3: enough the investigating their disappearance and come on in, guys,

152
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,240
Speaker 3: you know, do your thing and we we'll get out

153
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:23,720
Speaker 3: of your way.

154
00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,160
Speaker 2: But the media found out about it.

155
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,600
Speaker 7: Police arrived at their Bonnie Hills home at seven point

156
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,199
Speaker 7: thirty on Tuesday morning. They spent forty eight hours excavating

157
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,840
Speaker 7: the backyard and emptying a sceptic tam.

158
00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 8: Morning Sean, what's the latest on that. We have fresh

159
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,600
Speaker 8: pictures that are coming to you now as we go

160
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,760
Speaker 8: to wear that this is the latest development. It's believed

161
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,440
Speaker 8: this semi rural property is linked to another property that

162
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,480
Speaker 8: was rated yesterday here in Laurenton where we are a

163
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,200
Speaker 8: flat where items were taken there.

164
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 4: They took computers out, they took a mattress out, and

165
00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 4: they took a ton of stuff out.

166
00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,400
Speaker 5: Actually they filled the back of our yard waggon up.

167
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,920
Speaker 7: Detectives have sent away three cars, mobile phones, a mattress

168
00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,160
Speaker 7: and computer equipment for forensic testing.

169
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,840
Speaker 2: Those raids and the media reporting would change everything in

170
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:12,760
Speaker 2: Bell's life.

171
00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,960
Speaker 3: I didn't realize that things were so intense except Tom

172
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:24,280
Speaker 3: when during the first record or police interview and the

173
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:25,920
Speaker 3: question he was relentless.

174
00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,800
Speaker 5: I believe you went to that address better and drive

175
00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,040
Speaker 5: Kendall on the twelfth of September twenty fourteen.

176
00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:35,960
Speaker 3: I never went near there.

177
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 2: This is a recording of Bill Spatting's police interview.

178
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,559
Speaker 5: You were there to fix that washing machine. Perhaps you

179
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,880
Speaker 5: didn't make it to the house because as we know,

180
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,960
Speaker 5: William Tyrrell was wandering around the front yard of his

181
00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,080
Speaker 5: grandmother's house on his own he had no supervision bony

182
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 5: parent at that time for a few minutes.

183
00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 1: We know that.

184
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 5: Okay, we believe you were there.

185
00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,240
Speaker 3: I wasn't there. And the police are really getting upset

186
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,240
Speaker 3: with me because they were asking questions which I had

187
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 3: no knowledge of the content, and asking what happened to

188
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,679
Speaker 3: certain phone calls? And I said not that. I've got

189
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:26,480
Speaker 3: no idea.

190
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,640
Speaker 5: I'm telling you on your official records, you've got a

191
00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,720
Speaker 5: phone call at nine o three am, but it isn't here.

192
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,600
Speaker 2: Is anything you can tell me about that?

193
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,880
Speaker 5: No, what this indicates to us, So that specific phone

194
00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,079
Speaker 5: call you received, you deleted from that.

195
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:43,679
Speaker 3: Phone You can't delete it.

196
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,720
Speaker 5: You deleted that number. You can deleted that incoming call

197
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,480
Speaker 5: so that when police extracted your phone they wouldn't find

198
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,720
Speaker 5: it in the extraction of the phone. Why is that

199
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:56,320
Speaker 5: phone call not in your incoming calls on the twelfth

200
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,320
Speaker 5: of September twenty fourteen at nine oh three am, I

201
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 5: don't know. Did you delete that phone call.

202
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 3: Now, as far as you can't delete.

203
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,480
Speaker 5: Did you delete that phone call from your telephone number now,

204
00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,000
Speaker 5: from your mobile telephone now to show the police that

205
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,440
Speaker 5: that phone call did not occur for whatever reason?

206
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,240
Speaker 3: I don't know I didn't delete anything.

207
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 2: In his book. Bill says that was the call about

208
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 2: fixing the washing machine at the house where William was staying.

209
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,119
Speaker 2: He says it didn't show up in his phone records

210
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,400
Speaker 2: because he used the automated answer phone service. Bill pressed

211
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,400
Speaker 2: one oh one to listen to the message, then pressed

212
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 2: twenty two to redial the number. So it wasn't like

213
00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,600
Speaker 2: a normal phone call. But it went beyond asking you

214
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:46,560
Speaker 2: certain questions. They said to you, we believe that you

215
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:47,960
Speaker 2: may have grabbed William.

216
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 5: We believe that you may have grabbed William from that

217
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,679
Speaker 5: front address, from the front yard of that address, may

218
00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 5: have left the area. Then in one knowing, I'm sorry,

219
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 5: I wasn't they did you take William?

220
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,800
Speaker 3: Til No. I just sat there and thought, what are

221
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 3: you talking about? I wasn't there.

222
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:12,239
Speaker 2: Were you frightened?

223
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:20,360
Speaker 3: Oh? I was bewildered, very much bewildered in the questioning.

224
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,600
Speaker 2: And if Bill says he was bewildered by the questions

225
00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:28,319
Speaker 2: asked in the recorded police interview. What the detectives asked

226
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,360
Speaker 2: him when they turned off the tape must have been

227
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,839
Speaker 2: even more confusing. There was one point when I think

228
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,640
Speaker 2: the police were driving you from your house to the

229
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,199
Speaker 2: police station on that day. In the car, they asked

230
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,240
Speaker 2: you if you knew any pedophiles, yes, and you said,

231
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:51,000
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know the names there people you

232
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,920
Speaker 2: knew from the past, just related. And they said, what

233
00:13:54,960 --> 00:14:02,160
Speaker 2: about Jeffrey meaning Jeffrey Hillsleyy was Bill's former brother in

234
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,440
Speaker 2: law from a previous marriage. At that time, Jeffrey was

235
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,040
Speaker 2: serving a life sentence for raping a ten year old

236
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,480
Speaker 2: girl and murdering her stepfather. But did you think at

237
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,960
Speaker 2: that point they're asking me about pidophiles? Did that start

238
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 2: to what did you think?

239
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 3: Then? I was very naive. I was totally overwhelmed, very

240
00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,840
Speaker 3: nive about please question me. And I hadn't done anything

241
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,360
Speaker 3: to feel guilty about, and so I'm thinking, well, well,

242
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,880
Speaker 3: they're just asking normal questions.

243
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,600
Speaker 2: After you left the police station that day you interviewed

244
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,240
Speaker 2: for six hours, Yes, and you left the police station.

245
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 2: And as you left, you've given evidence saying that one

246
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,800
Speaker 2: of the detectives shouted at you, we know you did it,

247
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,520
Speaker 2: We're going to get you. I'm going to arrest you. Yeah,

248
00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 2: this one detective did. And that was a about William Tyrell. Right, Okay,

249
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,840
Speaker 2: So there's a lot to unpack here. At this point,

250
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,200
Speaker 2: all Bill knows is the police have turned up at

251
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,040
Speaker 2: his door, raided his house and later his business office.

252
00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 2: They've driven him away asking about pedophiles and spent six

253
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,920
Speaker 2: hours questioning him, including saying they believe he took William.

254
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 2: But why are the police so focused on him?

255
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 9: Well, by this stage, the disappearance of William Terrel had

256
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:40,760
Speaker 9: saturated the press.

257
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,080
Speaker 2: This is Bill Spedding's lawyer Peter O'Brien speaking in a

258
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:46,040
Speaker 2: separate interview.

259
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,840
Speaker 9: It had permeated well into the community psyche. It worried appearance,

260
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 9: It worried anyone in our community who's right minded and

261
00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 9: thinking of that, the welfare of this poor child who

262
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 9: gone missing in such mysterious circumstances. And the police response

263
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:13,600
Speaker 9: was naturally and correctly to do whatever they could. The problem,

264
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,800
Speaker 9: I think in some respects with the approach that they

265
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:25,760
Speaker 9: took is that they focused through heavily on Bill Spedding

266
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,840
Speaker 9: once they had what was probably a distorted piece of

267
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,360
Speaker 9: fabricated information on an anonymous tip.

268
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 2: That anonymous tip was made within days of William Tyrrell

269
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,920
Speaker 2: being reported missing. According to police records, the cops received

270
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 2: at least one call claiming Bill has a history of

271
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:50,480
Speaker 2: alleged involvement in some really awful offenses. I'm not going

272
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,000
Speaker 2: to say what those alleged offenses are, because here's the

273
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,160
Speaker 2: thing about them, they'd already been thrown out in court

274
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,280
Speaker 2: decades early. When a judge said the person making these

275
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 2: allegations against Bill was quote obsessive, compulsive, and bizarre. It's

276
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 2: all tied up in that complicated family history and the

277
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 2: falling outs I mentioned at the start of the episode.

278
00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,160
Speaker 2: The judge said this person's evidence quote contained inconsistencies which

279
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,480
Speaker 2: were so numerous that I cannot now take the time

280
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,119
Speaker 2: to refer to them. He also said this person programmed

281
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,119
Speaker 2: and tutored others to make allegations against Bill, allegations the

282
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:42,200
Speaker 2: judge said he was reasonably satisfied were not true, which

283
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 2: is a problem because if the police were following that

284
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 2: anonymous tip, they should have known this, and if they

285
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 2: didn't know it before they raided Bill's house, they certainly

286
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,639
Speaker 2: should have done so after. Because a copy of the

287
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 2: court records maintaining the judge's damning demolition of the case

288
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:10,960
Speaker 2: was seized during the police raid on Bill's office. Looking

289
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,000
Speaker 2: back at it now, how much damage do you think

290
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,439
Speaker 2: that has done to Bill and the people he was

291
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:19,160
Speaker 2: living with at the.

292
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:24,080
Speaker 9: Time, Well, incalculable amount of damage. But what it seems

293
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,520
Speaker 9: to have done in this case is put him at

294
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,439
Speaker 9: the center, and entirely by coincidence, for the fact that

295
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,560
Speaker 9: he was a washing machineer Peerman going about his ordinary

296
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 9: daily work that has brought him to the center of

297
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 9: the disappearance of a child. That's raised the entirety of

298
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 9: a stratus concerns.

299
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:50,000
Speaker 2: That, however, isn't even the worst of it, to my mind.

300
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,640
Speaker 2: The worst thing is that the police raids on Bill's

301
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 2: house and business, which put his face on the TV

302
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,000
Speaker 2: and the front page of the papers, were launched before

303
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 2: the cops properly checked Bill's alibi for the morning William

304
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 2: was reported missing, meaning no one confirmed if Bill actually

305
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,199
Speaker 2: was where he said he was in this statement he

306
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:17,240
Speaker 2: gave detectives.

307
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,360
Speaker 3: On Friday, the twll Fortember two thousand and fourty I'll

308
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 3: dropped the boys to the bus stop and went back home.

309
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,600
Speaker 2: That was in the early morning before school. The last

310
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 2: known photograph of William Tyrell was taken at nine thirty

311
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,639
Speaker 2: seven am at nine forty four. Bill's bank records show

312
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,200
Speaker 2: he bought coffees to him and Margaret at a cafe

313
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 2: in Lorryton, a town a short drive from where William

314
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:42,560
Speaker 2: was staying.

315
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,680
Speaker 3: Hunger and I went to the school, assuming at Laura

316
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,200
Speaker 3: and Published School. This would have been about ten am

317
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 3: and finished at about twelve thirty PM. I spoke with

318
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 3: some of the parents that were there and also spoke

319
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 3: to the precibol and one of their teachers.

320
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,200
Speaker 2: After the school assembly, Bill says he went to his offic.

321
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 3: Which is located a ball Street Lord So I finished

322
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,240
Speaker 3: up of the office cycle pick up the kids from

323
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 3: school at three thirty. I had no dealings with the

324
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 3: female foster care as mother family on that day. In fact,

325
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,919
Speaker 3: I had no contact with them from the night of

326
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 3: the fifteenth September twenty fourteen.

327
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,120
Speaker 2: If Bill's alibi checked out, it was physically pretty much

328
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,119
Speaker 2: impossible for him to be involved in what happened to William.

329
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 3: They also had my written diary which they had photographed

330
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 3: and photo cobbied, and in it was quite I had

331
00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:42,480
Speaker 3: appointments written, and I had appointments which were moved around

332
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 3: so that I could attend the assembly on the twelfth

333
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 3: of September.

334
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 2: Did you trust the police at that point.

335
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,280
Speaker 10: I did at first because a little boy went missing

336
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,440
Speaker 10: and I knew they had to look for.

337
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 3: This little fellow.

338
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 2: Do you trust them now? No, say that with a smile.

339
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 2: I'm guessing you weren't always smiling about it. Do you

340
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: trust them?

341
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 3: Trust them? I had not one way or the other.

342
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 3: I was just confusers to the what they're up to.

343
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 2: Bill wasn't the only person wondering what the police were

344
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 2: up to at this point. It's worth saying these decisions

345
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 2: who to target and how in major cases don't get

346
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: decided by any one detective. They reported up and signed

347
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 2: off by senior police commanders. But the detective running the

348
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 2: investigation into William's disappearance was hands rup Well.

349
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,360
Speaker 1: I think that someone grabbed him off the straight, bundled

350
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,679
Speaker 1: him into a car and he just disappeared.

351
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: And at least one person inside the police force was

352
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 2: starting to question what Hans was doing. That person was

353
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 2: another detective. Introduce yourself. Tell me who you are.

354
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,679
Speaker 4: Gary Jubland, retired detective now working in the media.

355
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,440
Speaker 2: But who were you before you retired?

356
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 4: I was a police officer for thirty four years, specializing

357
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 4: as a homicide detective.

358
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 2: That was my passion.

359
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 1: That was my drive.

360
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 2: At the time, Hans is planning the raid on Bill Spedding.

361
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 2: He's only a few weeks off retirement. Gary is due

362
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 2: to take the case over. When he hears about the planned raid,

363
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: Gary tries to stop it.

364
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 4: I had concerns before I took it over because the

365
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 4: whole focus of the investigation that that stage was on

366
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 4: Bill Spending. They were going to execute the search warrant

367
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 4: on his place, and once the search warrants executed that

368
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 4: he would know that we were looking at him. I

369
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 4: spoke to senior police and said, could we put a

370
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 4: hold on that and stop that occurring? And I suppose

371
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: I'm over stepping the mark to a degree because I

372
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 4: wasn't in charge of the job.

373
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 1: At that time.

374
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 4: I was putting a place firmly, put him a place

375
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,959
Speaker 4: and told, don't you worry about it now. When you

376
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 4: take it over, you can then run it the way

377
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 4: you want to run it.

378
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 2: So you tried to stop the search warrant being executed? Yes, why?

379
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 4: Because I didn't believe all the stuff that needed to

380
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 4: be done. I wanted to approach it a little bit differently,

381
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 4: not so overtly. I wanted to approach it more covertly.

382
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 4: Once you've executed the search warrant, you put your hand

383
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,479
Speaker 4: up and said, basically, we think you're the suspect for it.

384
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:43,919
Speaker 4: I didn't want it to go down that path.

385
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: Gary called up his boss, the homicide squad commander.

386
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 4: I said, can we find Mick Willing who was at home?

387
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: And then your leave.

388
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 4: He was a boss and I explained it to him,

389
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 4: and I was basically told words to the effect of tubes,

390
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 4: just wait till you take it over.

391
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 1: Let Hands retire in peace.

392
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 4: And so I just stepped aside and they did the

393
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 4: did the search warrant on Bill Spenning's place.

394
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 2: It's not just Gary Jubilin saying this. His version is

395
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: backed up by the person he spoke to, Michael Willing.

396
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: And you were the homicide commander at the time William

397
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 2: two or went missing.

398
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: That's right.

399
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: Do you remember that happening?

400
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: I do.

401
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: How would you describe.

402
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,719
Speaker 11: Hans Hans You know, old score homicide squad detective Hands

403
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 11: had an abrupt but really effective style to be honest,

404
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 11: you know, but he was determined and you know he

405
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,879
Speaker 11: worked up until the last day that he had in

406
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 11: the detective's office at the homicide squad.

407
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 2: He was working his backside off. You know, you said

408
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: he was a hard working detective. Was he a good detective?

409
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: How was his management?

410
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 11: He was a very respected detective, certainly respected across the

411
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 11: police force, respected within the homicide squad, respected by his team.

412
00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 2: Decision was made under Hands were up to raid Bill's

413
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 2: home and his office. Were you aware at that point

414
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 2: whether or not Bill's alibi had been checked? I wasn't

415
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: personally aware.

416
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 11: I was being advised as the homicide squad commander by

417
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 11: Hands in terms of what he thought he was working on.

418
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: Did Gary ask you not to do it?

419
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 11: I recalled Gary in the last days before Hans retired.

420
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 11: I think I was on leave and Gary wanted to

421
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 11: jump in and take it straight away.

422
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 2: Did you tell Gary to leave it, to let the

423
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 2: raids go ahead and to let Hands retire in peace?

424
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: Yes?

425
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,959
Speaker 2: Did the right decision? Looking back? Oh, I don't know.

426
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 11: You know at the end of the day too, Hans

427
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 11: was an extremely experienced investigator and I had no doubt

428
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 11: or no reason to question anything that he was doing.

429
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: But Gary Jubilin kept asking questions.

430
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 4: So there was no investigation plan on this investigation.

431
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: When you took it over.

432
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 4: There was no investigation plan. Now I say that with

433
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 4: a certain tone because I'm so surprised that I consider

434
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 4: it was the state's highest profile investigation, if not the

435
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 4: country's most high profile investigation.

436
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: An investigation plans are written document that essentially says how

437
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: we are going to conduct this investigation.

438
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 4: How are we going to conduct the investigation, and the direction,

439
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 4: the strategies, the approach to the investigation. That it's like

440
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 4: a framework for an investigation.

441
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 2: Do you remember seeing an investigation plan that hands to

442
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 2: go up.

443
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 11: I can't specifically recall it, but that's part and parcel

444
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 11: of any investigation.

445
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 2: You would have expected that to be one. I would

446
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: have expected there to be one. What were you told

447
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: by your commander when you were given this job.

448
00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 4: My commander, Mick Willing, Detective superintendent at the time, he

449
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 4: told me that that's a bit of a cluster, meaning

450
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,639
Speaker 4: meaning that I needed to sort it out. When I

451
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 4: talk it over.

452
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: Did you say to him words to the effect, this

453
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: investigation is a mess. I need you to come in

454
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: and sort it out.

455
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 11: Look, that's been raised in various actual proceedings. To be honest,

456
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 11: I can't recall saying that to him. I did have

457
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 11: concerns about the investigation. I can't recall saying those words.

458
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: Police documents from that time show Gary recorded written concerns

459
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: about the previous running of the investigation into William's disappearance,

460
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 2: which seemed to have shifted its attention away from and

461
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 2: back to Bill Spedding over time, possibly to the detriment

462
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: of other lines of inquiry. Gary wrote, but Bill's name

463
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: was out there and it was everywhere in bulletins and

464
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 2: news reports. Given what had happened, the police records show

465
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: Gary decided to focus on Bill, with quote as many

466
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: resources as are available to gather evidence of his involvement

467
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 2: or exclude him from involvement. Can I ask you how

468
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: you feel about Gary jubilin there?

469
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: What only name? Was a very aggressive policeman. I don't

470
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: know him personally, and I think he was handed a

471
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: poison chalice. He was handed something that was going to

472
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 3: cause him a lot of grief.

473
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: Do you remember on the day you were arrested, Yes,

474
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: when in the morning outside your house there was a

475
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: line of cars around the corner which was full of media. Yes,

476
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 2: I was in one of those cars. This was April

477
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, a few months after Gary Jubilin took over

478
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: the investigation into William's disappearance. I was a reporter covering

479
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: the case for a newspaper.

480
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 3: The thing was that I said to Margaret early one,

481
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 3: there's something up, because there's media everywhere.

482
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: Were apprehensive. At that point.

483
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: I knew something was up, but I had nothing to

484
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 3: feel guilty about. If I had been a criminal, I'll

485
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 3: be out there panicky. But I wasn't a criminal, right.

486
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 3: And the thing is that the media's out there. Why

487
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: are they out there? Oh well, it's another day media

488
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: out there.

489
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: It wasn't just some media out there. All the media

490
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: were out there. A line of cars and TV trucks

491
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: down the road and round the corner, and I was

492
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: in them. I found out Bill Spedding was going to

493
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: be arrested before it happened, from another journalist. Everyone seemed

494
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: to know it was coming. I tried to get Gary

495
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: jubil In to confirm it, but he wouldn't. Sometime in

496
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: the mid morning, Bill left the house and drove off.

497
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: We all panicked. Do you remember when I think you

498
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: left and went into Port Macquarie?

499
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: Yes?

500
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: Do you remember what happened?

501
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 3: Yes? It was an absolute chaos.

502
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 2: It was chaos. We followed Bill in a convoy. None

503
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 2: of us knew where he was going or why the

504
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: police hadn't turned up yet to arrest him, but all

505
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: of us were desperate not to miss the next big

506
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: break in the William Tyrrell instigation. And I think at

507
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: one point you sped up to try and get away

508
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 2: from us, and we were overtaking cars. We may have

509
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 2: jumped lights. The Sydney Morning Herald nearly crashed into my car,

510
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 2: and I remember feeling at the time this was basically harassment.

511
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: It was it was I think you got out of

512
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: the car in Port Macquarie and reporters jumped out of

513
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: cars and surrounded you, and then I think you got

514
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: straight back into the car.

515
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 3: I've thought to yourself, well, we'll just get back in

516
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: the car and go home.

517
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: What was it like driving along the road with a

518
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 2: convoy of reporters following you?

519
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 3: What can I know to.

520
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: At one point you're almost lost us. I think you

521
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: went over around about and then a car came around

522
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: and cut us off. But then we sped up, so

523
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: we were breaking speed limits to catch up. Very bad boys, Yeah,

524
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: we were pretty bad that day. But arguably so was

525
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: whoever in the police force tipped off the media that

526
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: Bill was going to be arrested. That's not normal for

527
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: a homicide investigation. Like I said, I heard it from

528
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: another journalist, and Gary Jubilin refused to confirm it. But

529
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: in the years since, he's been the person blamed publicly

530
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: for this leap, including by the state government and more

531
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: than one judge. All of that happened later when the

532
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 2: decision to arrest Bill Spedding was torn apart in court.

533
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: At this point, I need to be open. Gary Jubilin

534
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: and I go back a long way to before William

535
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: being reported missing, when I was a newspaper reporter covering

536
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 2: other of his investigations, like the serial killing of three

537
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: children in a town called Bauerville, not far from where

538
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: William would disappear. Years later, I left the paper. Gary

539
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: and I co wrote a couple of books together, which

540
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: were basically his memoirs. After that, I got another job

541
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 2: working in podcasts, including overseeing one where Gary was the host.

542
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 2: So he and I get on. We don't always agree,

543
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 2: and I've told him when I think he's done the

544
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: wrong thing, including on this investigation. He doesn't always listen.

545
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 2: But given he and I have this history together, the

546
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: question is whether you think I can be fair and

547
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 2: honest in the way I report on Gary in this podcast.

548
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: All I can do is lay it out for you

549
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: and let you be the judge. It was Gary Jubilin

550
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: who turned up at Bill's house that day to arrest him,

551
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: saying it was historical offenses.

552
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 10: When they took him away, I just lost it. I

553
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 10: didn't know what I was doing. I locked myself in

554
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 10: the house for days. I wasn't a game to go

555
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 10: outside because of the media and everything.

556
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: Did the media treat you fairly?

557
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah? They just were there.

558
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 10: We couldn't move, We couldn't go anywhere. They were following

559
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 10: us everywhere every day, and every morning we'd get up,

560
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 10: they'd be at the front.

561
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: How bad did it get with the way people treated

562
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: you after your name was made public?

563
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: We were in a fish birdcage or a fish tank.

564
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 3: Everyone steering in like just coming down to court.

565
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 10: You could see people being on the TV and the

566
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 10: papers and you could see them steering.

567
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: This wasn't only local news. Bill's name and face were

568
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: plastered across the country after he was arrested. I was

569
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 2: in the media pack the next day for his first

570
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: court appearance. Afterwards, outside the court, someone from the police

571
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 2: gave all of the journalists photocopies of a court document

572
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 2: describing in graphic detail the Offense's police were saying, Bill

573
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: committed Did you know that was happening?

574
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: No, of course not.

575
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: In that court document were the same allegations that had

576
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: come up already decades earlier and had been dismissed once

577
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: before by a judge. And no, it wasn't Gary jubilin

578
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: handing out that document though.

579
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 3: We're using that as a leverage or pressure or something

580
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: to create inverted como's a breakthrough.

581
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 2: The story exploded. What was the worst of it?

582
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 3: Holding the car with mag and this fellow got out

583
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 3: of the car in front and made the gun symbol

584
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 3: at me.

585
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 10: And what about the pathology?

586
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I was just called a little the bothologist.

587
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: Yes you asked to leave?

588
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 3: Oh yes, yes, he read it.

589
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 10: His name Bill Spidding.

590
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 2: How did your business go?

591
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 3: When? When? And wait to be gone? It dropped to

592
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 3: nothing almost over night.

593
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 2: So your business is gone. This means your income's gone? Yes,

594
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: I mean what does that do to you in terms of.

595
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: Well financially we're screwed.

596
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: After a few months, Bill got bail, meaning he was

597
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: released from prison while waiting for a trial to take place.

598
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: Things got so bad he and Margaret moved house, but

599
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: his name was now tied up in the public imagination

600
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: with William's disappearance.

601
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: I really would appreciate if you were never out the

602
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: front of the children around.

603
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 4: You will not do any if you see children.

604
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: A neighbor told Bill she didn't want him outside with

605
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 2: her children.

606
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 6: I just would like to.

607
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 11: Know that you would never have a myyeball out here

608
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 11: in case you're bringing my children, if you're viewing any

609
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 11: of my children or their friends.

610
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: I don't want the minds open while I'm playing out because.

611
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 5: I just don't want you around when there's so many

612
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 5: children here.

613
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,479
Speaker 2: Somehow strangers got hold of Bill's phone number. He got

614
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: death threats. Bill reported these threats to the police, but

615
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: nothing happened. One day, walking down the road, a man

616
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: asked if he was Bill Spedding. Bill said yes, and

617
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: the man lurched towards him, grabbing Bill's throat. Bill reported

618
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: this to the police as well. He doesn't know if

619
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 2: anyone got charged.

620
00:37:59,520 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 3: I don't know.

621
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 10: It's just been.

622
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 3: Just been a lot on us.

623
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 10: The kids are still feeling it as much as what

624
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 10: we did.

625
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: Bill's wife, Margaret says the worst impact was on the kids.

626
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 10: Because they were happy when they were with us, they

627
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 10: were really good, but after they just sort of went downhill.

628
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: Bill was prevented from seeing the kids after the first

629
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: police raid after being arrested. His bail conditions stopped him

630
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 2: from seeing any children. They weren't happy before William went missing.

631
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: Those kids who were living with you, were they doing well,

632
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: very well? They were done well at school.

633
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 10: The teachers just loved them and loved the work we're

634
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 10: doing with them.

635
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 2: And did it then have an impact on them as well?

636
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 3: Did Big Time? Yes?

637
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: Your terrible impact in one way.

638
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 3: Well, they were pulled out from the stable home do

639
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 3: a completely unstable environment. They were severed from their friends,

640
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 3: severed from their sporting activities, their family which was us,

641
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: and there was a lot of rebellion generated because of that.

642
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: So all that time between the original raid on your

643
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 2: house and the end of the child, which I think

644
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: was about three years, you couldn't talk to.

645
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: Them, well, I was prohibited from contacting anyone under eighteen.

646
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: Has that had an impact on your relationship with.

647
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 3: Them, with the children when they were deafer, say.

648
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 10: Don't you Yeah, Well, they keep saying while they were

649
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 10: with us, they'd never been so happy when they were

650
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 10: living with us, and then when that got taken away,

651
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 10: they went downhill.

652
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 2: So if you're counting up the number of lives damaged

653
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: by the investigation into William Tirell's disappearance, you have to

654
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 2: add these four kids as well. All that damage might

655
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 2: be one thing if Bill was found guilty of the

656
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: offenses he was charged with, But on the fifth of

657
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: March twenty eighteen, three years after the first police raid

658
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: on his house, Bill Spedding was found not guilty. Four

659
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 2: years later, December twenty twenty two, he was awarded almost

660
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 2: two million dollars in compensation by the New South Wales

661
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: Supreme Court, which found quote there was no reasonable or

662
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 2: probable cause to institute or maintain the criminal prosecution against

663
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: mister Spedding, and the material available supported an overwhelming inference

664
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: that the allegations were concocted and false. The court directly

665
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: criticized the police involved, saying quote the officers had material

666
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 2: that must and certainly should have led them to doubt

667
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: the viability of the case.

668
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 6: Hey, Gary, can you hear me?

669
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: Yes, Dan, I'm not in the country at the time

670
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 2: of the court's decision, so I talked to Gary Jubilin

671
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: on a zoom call.

672
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 6: You sound like you have got a lot on ah.

673
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: Yes.

674
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:48,399
Speaker 6: Have you had time in order that to read through

675
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 6: the judgment in the Bill Spedding matter.

676
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, eighty seven pages, so by playing through what I

677
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 4: consider relevant.

678
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Gary Dubilin oversaw the investigation into William Tyrell's disappearance,

679
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: but he wasn't the officer in charge of the prosecution

680
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 2: of Bill Spedding over these separate offenses. That was a

681
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 2: more junior detective who was part of Gary's strike force.

682
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 2: And everything the strike force did was written up in

683
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 2: progress reports, dozens of them, signed off by senior commanders,

684
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,920
Speaker 2: and the decision to charge Bill Spedding was assessed by

685
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 2: other specialist detectives and the police force's own lawyers. But

686
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: it's Gary's name that keeps coming up for criticism in

687
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 2: the court's judgment.

688
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 4: It seems to be that the essence of the judge's

689
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 4: decision is that I and I say I because it

690
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 4: does a lot seems to come beck.

691
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: On me in essence, the court found gary Strikeforce charged

692
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding with other unrelated offenses, offenses that had already

693
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 2: been rejected decades earlier by another judge as a way

694
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 2: of putting pressure on Bill to see if he or

695
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 2: someone close to him would crack about William.

696
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 4: I've been at Corbyn door camp. From what junior officers

697
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 4: are doing under my command, no one above me has

698
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 4: been carbynt A camp what.

699
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: I was doing.

700
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 6: So there's a document the judge flags which you wrote,

701
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 6: called the Strikeforce Roseanne proposed Operational Phase. But what bothers

702
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 6: me about it is that describes the arrest of Bill

703
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 6: Spedding as being phase five in a series of phases

704
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 6: that are part of the investigation into what happened with

705
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 6: William Tyrol. So it very much looks in that document

706
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 6: that you are arresting Bill Spedding on these unrelated offenses

707
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 6: as part of your investigation into what happened to William. Yeah,

708
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 6: I mean in that document it absolutely looks like that's

709
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 6: the case.

710
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 4: Okay, And to answer that this is a chicken before

711
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 4: the egg and I'm not making this offense up. These

712
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 4: are serious offenses. So yes, I'm going to use the

713
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 4: fact that we've got primer facy case on a person

714
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 4: that in the timing of it, it is a fase.

715
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 4: But that to me, and this is what really agrees

716
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 4: me about this decision. I think that was some of

717
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 4: the best police work I've done in my career. I

718
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 4: had to there were so many moving parts, but I'm

719
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 4: using every available resource, technique and strategy I had available

720
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 4: to me.

721
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 6: You can't do that though, as a cop, can you

722
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 6: You can't charge someone with unrelated offenses in order to

723
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 6: pursue a different investigation.

724
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 4: Let me say this, if you're going to have to

725
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 4: charge that person, do you think it's acceptable that if

726
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 4: I charged Bill Spending, I didn't have a conversation with

727
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 4: him after that point in time about William Terrell? Do

728
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 4: you think I should have just charging Because this is

729
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 4: where I think it comes down to.

730
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, I'm saying you can't do what you say

731
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 2: you did, and you're saying I couldn't have done the alternative.

732
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: I would have been wrong not to charge him and

733
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: not ask him about William.

734
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 4: I could imagine being in the coroner's court with the

735
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 4: family looking at this investigation and being asked, so you

736
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 4: were looking for the person responsible for abducting a three

737
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 4: our child. Yes, and there was a person of interest

738
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 4: that you were looking at, Yes, and you didn't think

739
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 4: it was worthwhile speaking to him about the abduction case.

740
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 2: Like Unsurprisingly, Bill Spedding's lawyer feels differently about this.

741
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 9: That suggestion by Gary Jubilan that the matters were distinct

742
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 9: that he was going to bring there on charges that

743
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 9: were already open to charge has been made a nonsense

744
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 9: of Now, I don't understand that if police officers have

745
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 9: someone that they suspect for one thing, and they have

746
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 9: reasonable and probable cause to charge them with another thing,

747
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 9: that they might well bring those charges in order to

748
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 9: put pressure.

749
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 1: But that wasn't this case.

750
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 9: This was a case where the chargers have been demonstrated

751
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 9: to have been probably false and should never have.

752
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 2: Been laid, and that is what the court found. Reading

753
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 2: through the judgment, you can see the alleged victims accounts

754
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: of what happened change. A crucial eyewitness refuses to cooperate

755
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 2: with the police for months, and when he finally does,

756
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 2: his evidence is that the offenses didn't happen.

757
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 9: The case fell away. The case fell away as long

758
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 9: as as it went. But there was also a failue

759
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 9: to disclose by place.

760
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: The different problems with the case are not all included

761
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 2: in police documents, including those provided to the prosecution lawyers.

762
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 9: The failed to disclose demonstrated further, the court found the

763
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,879
Speaker 9: malice that had initially swept them up.

764
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: Although the person described in the court judgment as having

765
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 2: failed to disclose this information isn't Gary Jubilin. Gary was

766
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: in overall command.

767
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 6: Okay, just to put some of the things you are

768
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 6: alleged done to you, and these are things you alleged

769
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 6: to have done directly rather than as a super The

770
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 6: judge says that you or someone working for you leaked

771
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 6: to the media that Bill Spedding was going.

772
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: To be arrested.

773
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, out, both you and I.

774
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 6: Know that is a joke. Well, I know you didn't

775
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 6: lead to me because I was trying to get you

776
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 6: to tell me and you wouldn't tell me.

777
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: Yeah.

778
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 4: When I found out that the media were there, I said,

779
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 4: someone from above has leaked this.

780
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 6: So you're sure you're saying it was leaked by somebody

781
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 6: above you? Yes, So, Bill Spedding says, at one point

782
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 6: when you came to arrest him, he was actually on

783
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 6: the phone to his solicitor, and he said this to you,

784
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 6: and you said, I don't care what fucking cunt you

785
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 6: have on the phone. I can believe you're using that language.

786
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 4: I probably would run the pub when I'm arresting someone

787
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 4: and doing that doing place work that wouldn't be used.

788
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding's draft book describes the moment when he was

789
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 2: arrested by Gary, but doesn't mention Gary using this language,

790
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,839
Speaker 2: which is something that was claimed later in court. Nor

791
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: does Bill's book describe something else said in court that

792
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 2: Gary threatened Bill, saying mister nice washing machine man, I

793
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: am going to ruin you.

794
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,800
Speaker 6: I can see you saying, mister nice washing machine repairer.

795
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 4: I can't recall saying that. I can't just but I

796
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 4: put it in the context of a conversation. I am

797
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,919
Speaker 4: trying to find a three year old boy that could

798
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 4: possibly be alive. So it wasn't a it wasn't an

799
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 4: inappropriate conversation, but it wasn't a comfortable conversation. And I

800
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 4: think that's the way.

801
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 6: What you were saying you didn't say, is the bit

802
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,399
Speaker 6: that is a threat, I am going to ruin you.

803
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 4: I can't make any threat, promise or inducement.

804
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 2: Who said what is really a relatively minor issue. The

805
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 2: fact is the court found Bill Spedding should not have

806
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: been prosecuted in the first place, and that once he

807
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 2: had been, that prosecution should never have continued, and that

808
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: the result did in Bill's life. Bill's own book wasn't

809
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 2: read out in the Supreme Court, but our book was

810
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 2: the one Gary and I wrote together. In it, we

811
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 2: described how Gary wrestled with this decision about charging Bill Spedding.

812
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: We wrote, quote, I'm about to pull the trigger on

813
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: a guy's life. Get it wrong and I'd destroy him.

814
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,600
Speaker 2: The judge found Jubilin knew if he got it wrong,

815
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 2: it would destroy mister Spedding. The public linking of his

816
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: name to the William Tyrell investigation was one thing. Jubilin

817
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 2: knew exactly what he was doing. If he got it wrong,

818
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 2: it would destroy him, and it did destroy him. Looking back,

819
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: I think that book we wrote together hurt Gary because

820
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: it was honest. In time, the Supreme Court's verdict would

821
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: be upheld by the Appeal Court, which described the pursuit

822
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 2: of Bill Spedding as the worst case of malicious prosecution

823
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 2: in the history of New South Wales.

824
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 9: Is in fact the highest award of damages in the

825
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 9: country for a malicious prosecution in those circumstances. Well, the

826
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 9: judges got it right.

827
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 2: That's Bill Spedding's lawyer, Peter O'Brien, Gary himself is unrepentant.

828
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 2: My last question, given what you now know in the

829
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: damage Bill Spedding says he's suffered, do you feel sorry

830
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 2: for Bill Spedding.

831
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 4: I don't want people. If people do listen to this,

832
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 4: I don't want them to misinterpret that we're going to

833
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 4: accept the ruling of the court. But me personally, no,

834
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 4: I don't.

835
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:06,479
Speaker 2: But that's not the end of the story. After Bill

836
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: was arrested and before he was found not guilty, he

837
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 2: spent time in Cesnox jail, a few hours south of

838
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 2: Kendall where William went missing. Bill's cellmate was a man

839
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: called Tony Jones. And in jail, you were putting a

840
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: cell with a guy called Tony Jones who used to

841
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,959
Speaker 2: be a neighbor of Bill's from years before.

842
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 3: And I hadn't seen or heard of him since, and

843
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 3: I didn't recognize him. He had a bid put on way.

844
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 2: Tony was serving time for child sex offenses.

845
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 3: I said, doing what's what you said? We're probably being recorded.

846
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 2: Their conversations were recorded. It was another of Gary Jublin's operations.

847
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,840
Speaker 2: Tony Jones had been given a script to work to

848
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 2: and a bunch of false documents claiming to show police

849
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: had new technology that allowed them to track where somebody

850
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: had been years earlier using them mobile phone. So the

851
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:07,240
Speaker 2: police were listening to the conversation when Bill said, well,

852
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 2: that means they'll be able to tell I wasn't anywhere

853
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: near the house on the morning William went missing. It's

854
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 2: there in the internal police records from the time. Gary

855
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 2: Jublin updates the investigation plan to say that he accepts

856
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,759
Speaker 2: on the balance of probabilities, Bill Spedding was not involved

857
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 2: in William's disappearance and the police now needed to refocus

858
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:39,480
Speaker 2: the investigation on someone else. In his unpublished book, Bill

859
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 2: lays out different theories of what might have happened to

860
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 2: William and concludes this case has all the hallmarks of

861
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 2: a targeted abduction, So we've ended up in the same place.

862
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 2: This episode started with the first detective who oversaw the

863
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 2: raid on Bill's home, hands Rupp, who also says it

864
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 2: was an abduction.

865
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: It was the anly logical explanation. He didn't wander off.

866
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,439
Speaker 1: We know he didn't wander off, so what else could

867
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: there be?

868
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 3: What was your feeling?

869
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: Well, I think that someone grabbed him off the street,

870
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: bundled him into a car and he just disappeared, which

871
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 1: is really really sad.

872
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 2: How much of you lost over the course of this process? Uge,

873
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 2: what's your overwhelming emotion.

874
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 3: I'm tired, very tired. I'm just the whole lot to

875
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 3: go away, Margaret.

876
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 2: I'm glad it's over? Is it over?

877
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 3: Isn't it? We don't know.

878
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 2: You once said that you said that there should be

879
00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 2: a parliamentary inquiry into the way the investigation of William's

880
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 2: disappearance has been conducted.

881
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 3: I think so. I think the myth is should be.

882
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 2: Do you know the one other person who also thinks

883
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: there should be a parliamentary inquiry into this investigation, it's

884
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 2: Gary Jubilin.

885
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:24,160
Speaker 3: I think so, because he was allowed to do what

886
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 3: he was what he did, so it goes up to

887
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 3: the higher police hierarchy that he was submitting his plan

888
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 3: of action to his superiors, and at no point was

889
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 3: a plan of action questioned, So maybe they should be

890
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 3: the inquiry into.

891
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 2: That so it goes up to the senior police. Yes,

892
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,720
Speaker 2: Bill Spedding is an old man now and has spent

893
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 2: several years in different courtrooms since William was reported missing.

894
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 2: In the appeal court last year, I noticed he now

895
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 2: wears a hearing aid and sat often with his eyes closed,

896
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 2: his head nodding forward as the court chewed over his

897
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 2: malicious prosecution. But what struck me listening to the details

898
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,240
Speaker 2: of how Bill was put under pressure by the media,

899
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 2: by the public, put under surveillance, charged with other offenses,

900
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:34,759
Speaker 2: and had his old neighbor sent in undercover. Wasn't that

901
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 2: this was a straightforward, mistaken police investigation, but rather this

902
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 2: was a playbook, a set of tactics that the police

903
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 2: would use again and again in the William Tyrrell investigation.

904
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 2: Because even while Bill Spedding was still awaiting trial, the

905
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: lead detective Gary Jubelin, had moved on, had refocused, and

906
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 2: was working on another potential suspect. He once told me

907
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 2: that when you're working a homicide investigation, you're going like

908
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 2: a bulldozer and people will get hurt. Yep, what did

909
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 2: you mean by that?

910
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 4: The very nature of homicide investigation if people think you

911
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 4: can tip toe rend the homicide investigation.

912
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: You're living in La La Land.

913
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 4: Homicide investigation is about finding out what's happened. I'm not

914
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 4: talking about breaking rules here or going too far. I'm

915
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 4: talking about you've got to go after a person. You've

916
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 4: got to hunt that person, find that person and gather

917
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 4: the evidence. And to do that, you're going to hurt people.

918
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 2: That's next time on Witness William Tyrrel. A lot of

919
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 2: different people have been involved in making this series. Among them,

920
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 2: the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was

921
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 2: by Tiffany Demack. The pre pro juicers have been Emily Pigeon,

922
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: Nicholas Adams, Jazz Bar, Phoebe Zakowski Wallace and Tabby Wilson.

923
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: Research by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor. Our

924
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at news dot com

925
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 2: dot Au is Kerry Warren. I'm Dan Box