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Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel

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Speaker 1: people of the Eur Nation.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Real Story with Joe Hildebrand.

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Speaker 2: And what a massive week it has been in the news.

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Speaker 2: Obviously some very concerning anti Semitic attacks in both Melbourne

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Speaker 2: and Sydney. The Prime Minister seems to be in crisis.

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Speaker 2: Certainly he is under attack. He himself appears to have

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Speaker 2: attacked the media, which is never a good move or

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Speaker 2: a good sign if you are the Prime minister.

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Speaker 3: What is going on?

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Speaker 2: We are going to untangle this massive mess that we

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Speaker 2: find ourselves in and see if we can make sense

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Speaker 2: of it all. I've got incredibly insightful master of the

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Speaker 2: dark arts, a political strategist, spin doctor extraordinaire who has

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Speaker 2: worked for three prime ministers and labor leaders as well

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Speaker 2: as a whole host of premier has worked on a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of election campaigns, doing black ops and all

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Speaker 2: the messaging, and he knows how this is done. He's

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Speaker 2: going to explain what the Prime Minister was thinking, why

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Speaker 2: it took him so long to get to the synagogue,

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Speaker 2: how he can manage himself out of the crisis in

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Speaker 2: which he finds himself and whether or not he'll go

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Speaker 2: on to win the election next year. We're gonna have

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Speaker 2: absolutely everything you need to know, as we do every

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Speaker 2: week right here on the real story.

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Speaker 3: Don't go anywhere.

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Speaker 2: So obviously this week we just have to talk about

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Speaker 2: the story that's been dominating the news, not just this week,

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Speaker 2: but basically for more than a year now. Ever since

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Speaker 2: the October seven terror attacks that have sparked this massive

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Speaker 2: conflict in the Middle East that has been absolutely tragic

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Speaker 2: for all sides, but it has resulted here in Australia

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Speaker 2: in the most disturbing wave of anti Semitism I think

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Speaker 2: I have ever seen in my lifetime, and I know

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Speaker 2: a lot of people in the Jewish community say is

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Speaker 2: completely unprecedented here, and I just wanted to sort of

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Speaker 2: unpack why Jewish people are feeling the way they're feeling.

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Speaker 2: I'm not Jewish, despite what everyone thinks. I'm a good

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Speaker 2: Catholic boy. Actually that's not true. I'm very bad Catholic boy.

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Speaker 2: Haven't been to mass for months, but I'm going to

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Speaker 2: get back there. I work every Sunday. It's very Unchristian,

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Speaker 2: but I have a lot of Jewish friends. I know

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Speaker 2: a lot of people in the Jewish community. I've been

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Speaker 2: to Israel, been to Jerusalem. I have been accused of

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Speaker 2: being Jewish myself by Neo Nazis and had my face

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Speaker 2: and name and detailed spread on the dark web, with

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Speaker 2: people saying we should go out and get this guy

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Speaker 2: because he's a dirty, dirty Jew and he doesn't like

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Speaker 2: Neo Nazis. Just a quick fyi, guys, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people don't like Neo Nazis. It's not just the Jews.

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Speaker 2: It's just the Jews that you don't like, Okay, But anyway,

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Speaker 2: And that's kind of the point, because there is a tendency,

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Speaker 2: I think, to see anti Semitism as not as important

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Speaker 2: or not as bad as other forms of racism or prejudice.

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Speaker 2: And that seems to me pretty passing strange, because anti

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Speaker 2: Semitism is unique among prejudices in terms of the sheer

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Speaker 2: industrial scale and the sheer extremity of hatred and destruction

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Speaker 2: that it has spawned. Now, this culminated obviously with the

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Speaker 2: Nazis during World War Two and the greatest ever genocide

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Speaker 2: in human history, at least six million people exterminated as

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Speaker 2: though they were animals, exterminated as though they were not human.

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Speaker 2: That is really important because that is how the Nazis

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Speaker 2: categorized Jews, that is how they presented them as being

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Speaker 2: not human, less than human, like beasts, like animals, like vermin.

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Speaker 2: It's all part of a deliberate strategy to completely dehumanize them,

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Speaker 2: rob them of their dignity, and therefore robbed them of

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Speaker 2: their right to even exist. But that's not new, that

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Speaker 2: didn't come out of nowhere. In Russia under the Czar,

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Speaker 2: under the Communists, there would also be pograms. Jewish people

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Speaker 2: would be attacked. Christians were probably the worst persecutors at

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Speaker 2: all throughout history. In the Middle Ages and the Tudor era,

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Speaker 2: Jews were rounded up and deported. They were kicked out

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Speaker 2: of England altogether, just booted out. They get out of here,

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Speaker 2: where do they go. They don't have any other country

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Speaker 2: to go to. They've got no home to go to.

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Speaker 2: It's not even like a refugee coming here and we say, no,

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Speaker 2: you've got to go back to where it came from.

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Speaker 2: They didn't have anywhere they were from except for Israel,

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Speaker 2: except for Jerusalem, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of

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Speaker 2: years ago. And so these are people who have been

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Speaker 2: stateless for two thousand years since the first century AD

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Speaker 2: until the establishment of Israel, after World War Two, after

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Speaker 2: the Holocaust, after that genocide, and again, this is something

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Speaker 2: that has happened again and again and again throughout history.

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Speaker 2: And yes, there have been other genocides that have been

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Speaker 2: absolutely appalling.

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Speaker 3: There have been.

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Speaker 2: Wars over land and resources. There have been ideological wars,

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Speaker 2: religious wars. We had the Crusades go and try to

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Speaker 2: wipe out Muslim populations or conquer Muslim populations in the

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Speaker 2: Middle East. But of course that came after you know,

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Speaker 2: the huge armies of Muhammad came and swept through the

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Speaker 2: Middle East and conquered whole sways of what was then

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Speaker 2: Asia Minor and Northern Africa, and of course Christians had

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Speaker 2: to run away back then. That's what happens in history,

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Speaker 2: goes back and forth. You have great invading armies, the Mongols,

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Speaker 2: they invaded a lot of places as well, displaced a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, built mountains of skulls. Again, a lot

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Speaker 2: of bad things have happened to a lot of people

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Speaker 2: throughout history, and yet it's only really been the Jews

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Speaker 2: who have never had any home to go to since

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Speaker 2: the Romans crushed Juri Erusalem and sent them scattered to

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Speaker 2: the four winds in the first century AD. They've got

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Speaker 2: nowhere else to go, and everywhere they go they end

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Speaker 2: up being run out of town. Again, Christians were the

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Speaker 2: worst offenders, but also Muslims. Often sometimes people would tolerate

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Speaker 2: them for a while, and then inevitably there'd be some

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Speaker 2: kind of conspiracy that would come up. There'd be a

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Speaker 2: conspiracy about just crazy stuff, nutty stuff that they kill babies,

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Speaker 2: blood libel, you know. And again it still goes on

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Speaker 2: today with the Rothschild conspiracy. I don't even know what

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Speaker 2: that means. But the stuff that the Nazis use, of course,

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Speaker 2: there's this secret society, secret world order that they're planning

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Speaker 2: to take over the world, just absolute nutty stuff. This

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Speaker 2: simply does not apply to any other race, or religion

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Speaker 2: or ethnicity. You just do not have that constant thread

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Speaker 2: of sheer, crazed hatred towards a particular people of the

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Speaker 2: same kind of consistency that you do with the Jews

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Speaker 2: over the millennia. And yes, the Nazis were the worst,

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Speaker 2: but they were not the first. And that is how

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Speaker 2: we have to understand what Jews in Australia are feeling

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Speaker 2: right now. You have to understand what they have gone through,

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Speaker 2: not just over the last year, not just with a

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Speaker 2: firebombed synagogue or a fire bombed house or a fire

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Speaker 2: bombed car, but through centuries and centuries and centuries millennia

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Speaker 2: of being targeted, abused, exterminated, killed if they didn't convert

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Speaker 2: to Christianity, booted out of the country sometimes either way.

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Speaker 2: These people have spent their entire life. They are defined

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Speaker 2: by other people wanting to harm them, wanting to exterminate

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Speaker 2: or expel them. And there are people in Australia, people

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Speaker 2: I've spoken to whose parents and grandparents would have told

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Speaker 2: them the stories of the Holocaust, would have told them

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Speaker 2: the stories of the rise of Hitler and the Third

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Speaker 2: Reich and Nazi Germany. There's smashing of shop windows, the

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Speaker 2: fire bombing of Jewish places. This is exactly what happened

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Speaker 2: in Crystal Knacht. This is what happened on the night

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Speaker 2: of the Broken Glass that presaged the greatest ever genocide

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Speaker 2: the world has ever ever seen. It looked exactly like

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Speaker 2: the sort of stuff we are starting to see in

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Speaker 2: Australia right now. And you have a community of people

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Speaker 2: whose grandparents will be telling them. I've seen this before,

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Speaker 2: This happened before, and this is what happened next. And

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Speaker 2: so when people say, you know, oh, what about Islamophobia

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Speaker 2: or what about other racism, or what about this or that,

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about the rise of these kinds of

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Speaker 2: actions in Australia in the twenty first century, that are

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Speaker 2: a little micro cosm of what happened in nineen thirties Germany.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it's just not the same thing. You are

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Speaker 2: just simply not understanding the nature of the problem and

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Speaker 2: not understanding the nature of the fear. And that is

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Speaker 2: why one of the first things that happened when the

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Speaker 2: synagogue was attacked in the early hours of last Friday,

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Speaker 2: that is why there were instantly demands from the whole

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Speaker 2: Jewish community for the Prime Minister to call this an

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Speaker 2: act of terror.

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Speaker 3: And this.

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Speaker 2: Was one of the great kind of I suppose confusions

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Speaker 2: and great kind of mismatches in understanding, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's been resolved now. But of course the Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: has no power to call something an active terror under

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Speaker 2: the law. He can't sort of simply decide, oh, this

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Speaker 2: was a terrorist act. It has to be investigated. ASIO

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Speaker 2: or the AFP have to see what the motivations were,

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Speaker 2: what the person or persons were trying to achieve. Then

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Speaker 2: they determined whether or not that's an active terror, and

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Speaker 2: then it gets investigated and prosecuted Accordingly. The Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: has no power to do that. But that is not

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Speaker 2: what the Jewish community was talking about. What the Jewish

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Speaker 2: community was talking about. What they wanted from the PM

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Speaker 2: was not to say this is technically an active terror

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Speaker 2: under the law. They didn't want him to tick a box.

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Speaker 2: What they wanted him to understand was that we are terrified.

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Speaker 2: This was done to make us terrified. This was done

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Speaker 2: to instill terror in us, and you must understand that,

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Speaker 2: and you must call it that. And I think the

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister has done so. I think he is and

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Speaker 2: now has finally understood the gravity of the situation. The

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Speaker 2: fact that we have had another anti Semitic attack in

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Speaker 2: Sydney just days afterwards, I think really drives that point

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Speaker 2: home and underscores the point for all the injustices in

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Speaker 2: the world, for all the prejudices in the world, there

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Speaker 2: is something incredibly specific and incredibly insidious about anti Jew hatred.

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Speaker 2: And I think we're finally starting to get that now

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Speaker 2: and it's a bloody good thing too, because if we

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Speaker 2: do not get it now, it may soon be too late.

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Speaker 2: Amid all this, obviously the PM is feeling a huge

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Speaker 2: amount of pressure. It's been a really difficult year for him.

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Speaker 2: He's got some things wrong, fair enough, he's got some

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Speaker 2: things right, but no one's noticing that because everyone's struggling.

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Speaker 2: And I refer to the first point, he got some

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Speaker 2: things wrong, and so it's natural in these situations to

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Speaker 2: want to kind of lash out, blame others or at least,

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Speaker 2: you know, tell people that things aren't as bad as

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Speaker 2: they seem. And that is totally fair enough, and it

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Speaker 2: is a completely human response. But sometimes that can result in,

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Speaker 2: how can I put this, making the problem a thousand

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Speaker 2: times worse. And this is what has inadvertently happened with

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Speaker 2: the leak of comments that the PM made to Cabinet

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Speaker 2: about how News Corp, the company that I work for,

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Speaker 2: is out to get him.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: As I say, I work for NEWSCICRP, who work for

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Speaker 2: lots of different arms of News Corp. I clearly am

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Speaker 2: very fond of Anthony Albanesi, and others who work for

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Speaker 2: News Corp are clearly not very.

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Speaker 3: Fond of Anthony Albanesi.

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Speaker 2: And I know that we can be a very tough crowd,

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Speaker 2: and I know that News Corp often goes hard and

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Speaker 2: the Daily Telegraph is a ripper little paper, but it's

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Speaker 2: a tough crowd. It's not easily pleased, and chances are

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Speaker 2: it will tell you one hundred things that the government

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Speaker 2: has done wrong before it tells you one thing that

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Speaker 2: the government's done right.

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Speaker 3: I know that there was someone who.

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Speaker 2: Wrote in until one of my columns years and years ago,

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Speaker 2: said that I know that Telegraph is doing its job

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Speaker 2: right when I feel like everything that's wrong in my

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Speaker 2: life is the fault of the New South Wales government,

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Speaker 2: even though I live in Queensland, and.

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Speaker 3: I thought that is actually bang on? That is it?

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Speaker 2: So again the Telly is, you know, it's a bit

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Speaker 2: like I tell people, I tell politicians. It's a bit

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Speaker 2: like Will Smith in Independence Day where he shoots down

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Speaker 2: the Flying Saucer with his Fighter jet and then he

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Speaker 2: goes to open the canopy of the Flying Saucer and

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Speaker 2: this horrible green alien with tentacles go back, and Will

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Speaker 2: Smith goes sort of taken aback a bit and then

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Speaker 2: he just goes punches it right in the head and

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Speaker 2: he says, welcome to Earth. He doesn't talk like that.

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Speaker 2: That sounded like Donald Trump punching the alien the head.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, that's kind of what the Daily Telegraph does

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Speaker 2: with all new leaders. We just give them a hard time.

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Speaker 2: We see what they're made of, you know, we go

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Speaker 2: round for round in the ring, just to see who

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Speaker 2: they are, they do, how they respond to things, and

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Speaker 2: then we think, all right, if you're still standing, maybe

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Speaker 2: you all right. But again, I'm going to be fair

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Speaker 2: to the PM. I know that News Corp, you know,

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Speaker 2: can give them a hard time. That is what the

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Speaker 2: media does. That is what the press should do. They

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Speaker 2: should hold leaders to account. But leaders are also human

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Speaker 2: and sometimes when they feel it all gets too much,

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Speaker 2: they think, hey, it's just not fair. But in politics,

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Speaker 2: life is not fair. And as Winston Churchill said, a

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Speaker 2: politician complaining about the press is like a sailor complaining

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Speaker 2: about the sea. In other words, if you can't handle

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Speaker 2: the press, you shouldn't be a politician. If you can't

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Speaker 2: handle the sea, you shouldn't be a sailor. And I

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Speaker 2: don't think that the PM was actually genuinely trying to

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Speaker 2: sort of have a wine or blame all this up.

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Speaker 3: I think he was going to cabinet.

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Speaker 2: Cabinet is meant to be a place of pretty intense

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Speaker 2: solidarity and a place where things do not leak. Now,

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Speaker 2: you get leaks from caucus all the time, which is

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Speaker 2: the entire party room. Every Labor MP in the Parliament

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Speaker 2: makes up the caucus, and that leaks like a sieve.

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Speaker 2: Quite frankly, it's a great party tradition to lead from caucus.

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Speaker 2: Oftentimes you will want what is said in caucus leaked.

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Speaker 2: The PM was really strong and he addressed this issue

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Speaker 2: or this and that. Some MPs raise concerns and that

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Speaker 2: will be leaked so that their electorates know that they're

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Speaker 2: arguing against government policy privately, even if they can't publicly.

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Speaker 2: That sort of stuff. But cabinet is not meant to leak.

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Speaker 2: Cabinet solidarity is incredibly important. It is meant to the

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Speaker 2: cabinet meets, they take a decision. It is meant to

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Speaker 2: be a vault. No one else is meant to know

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Speaker 2: what is said in there, and then cabinet goes and

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Speaker 2: takes a unified position, even if it's eleven to ten

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Speaker 2: in the cabinet all twenty one or whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: at any given to point in time, takes a unified

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Speaker 2: position of caucus that core Fucus then leaks like a

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Speaker 2: sieve about whatever it is they want to leak about.

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Speaker 2: But then they go and take a unified position to

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Speaker 2: the Parliament that's on the Labour side.

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Speaker 3: Lib side a bit different anyway.

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Speaker 2: So the PM has gone in, he's had a shocker

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Speaker 2: of a past couple of weeks, it's fair to say,

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Speaker 2: or in a rough kind of year, he's saying, look,

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Speaker 2: it's not as bad as you think, guys, they're just

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Speaker 2: you know, they're just out to keep me in.

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Speaker 3: They can't I can't cut a brake. They're just going hard, right.

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Speaker 2: And fair enough if he thinks that, and fair enough

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Speaker 2: if he wants to just express that frustration to people

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Speaker 2: who are meant to keep it literally in the room.

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Speaker 3: It's literally not meantally the room.

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Speaker 2: And again he needs to present to his team as

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Speaker 2: someone who is actually doing a good job, someone who

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Speaker 2: is actually leading them to victory at the next election,

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Speaker 2: not someone who is stuffing everything up. And so of

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Speaker 2: course you can say, look, it's not as bad as

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Speaker 2: you think. It's just that they keep coming at me.

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Speaker 2: But what has happened, Well, obviously it has leaked from

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Speaker 2: the cabinet, which is a big move. If someone finds

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Speaker 2: that you've leaked from cabinet, you're not in the cabinet anymore.

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Speaker 2: You are no longer a minister if you're identified as

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Speaker 2: a leak and the PM didn't want you to And

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Speaker 2: according to the nine newspapers.

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Speaker 3: Strangely enough, it wasn't leaked to news corps. It's leaked

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Speaker 3: to the other light.

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Speaker 2: According to the reports, there were four sources, four ministers

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Speaker 2: who leaked what went on. Now, some of them might

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Speaker 2: have been it might have been actually staying I no know,

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Speaker 2: Albo didn't say that like that, didn't say it in

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Speaker 2: that way. You know. There were people who said, you know,

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Speaker 2: you shouldn't be winging like this. This is a really

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Speaker 2: bad look. And there were people who said he wasn't

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Speaker 2: saying in a sort of suky la la kind of way.

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Speaker 2: It was saying it in just a matter of fact way.

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Speaker 2: But again, the fact that this leaked at all indicates

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Speaker 2: that there are a couple of people in that room

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Speaker 2: who thought that this was a really bad idea, and

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Speaker 2: indeed possibly thought it was such a bad idea that

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Speaker 2: they needed to make sure that it got out there

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Speaker 2: just so everyone could.

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Speaker 3: Realize what a bad, bad, bad idea that it was.

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Speaker 2: And I think that is pretty quickly happening now because

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Speaker 2: I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said you should

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Speaker 2: never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by

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Speaker 2: the barrel. And again, if you are saying to people,

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Speaker 2: I'm actually doing a really good job, but the press

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Speaker 2: is just out to get me, and the media is

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Speaker 2: just making it look bad and there's nothing I can

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Speaker 2: do about that. It's not my fault. Then why you're there,

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Speaker 2: if you're a leader, if you're the prime minister, you

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Speaker 2: are there because you're able to overcome these things, because

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Speaker 2: you're able to build relationships with the press, or you're

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Speaker 2: able to produce stories, produce policies that people can't punch

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Speaker 2: a hole in. That must be great. But because of course,

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Speaker 2: not a single media organization in the country is ever

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Speaker 2: going to criticize the policy that it thinks is going

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Speaker 2: to be great for its readers or its viewers or

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Speaker 2: it's listeners. And so, you know, criticizing the press, even

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Speaker 2: when it's warranted, is a bit like shooting the messenger.

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Speaker 2: You're just not cutting through to the people on the

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Speaker 2: other side. If you're a politician, if you're a leader,

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Speaker 2: you should be able to do that. You should be

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Speaker 2: able to get to the people on the other side.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting, and I do not think for a

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Speaker 2: second that Albot is actually heading this way, but it

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Speaker 2: is interesting that it is two former prime ministers who

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Speaker 2: were both rolled by their own colleagues, by their own colleagues.

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Speaker 3: Who really really really did not.

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Speaker 2: Like them, who ended up after that event blaming Rupert

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Speaker 2: Murdoch for all of it. So this was of course

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Speaker 2: Kevin rad and Malcolm Turnbull, who chaired the Australians, were

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Speaker 2: a Royal commission into the Murdoch News media, whatever that means.

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Speaker 2: And again these were people who were knifed in the

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Speaker 2: back by those closest to them, not Rupert Murdoch. So

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Speaker 2: I guess what I'm saying is and you know, again,

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Speaker 2: I work for Murdoch News Corp. Every angle, every arm

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Speaker 2: of news corporation that I can find I work for.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: But again, blaming them for something that your own friends

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Speaker 2: and colleagues did to you shows that you are not

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Speaker 2: completely in control of your own destiny, and that would

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Speaker 2: just be my little helpful piece of advice to all politicians,

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Speaker 2: wherever they may be, who happen to be listening to

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Speaker 2: this very important public service announcement. Well, it's fair to

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Speaker 2: say that twenty twenty four hasn't been the best year

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Speaker 2: for the Albanese labor government. And you know they've been

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Speaker 2: around for three years, so two out of three ain't bad.

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Speaker 2: But we thought we'd give him a bit of a

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Speaker 2: leg up this week, and so I've brought in the

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Speaker 2: big guns.

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Speaker 3: This guy is the master of the dark arts. He

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Speaker 3: is a.

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Speaker 2: Political strategist extraordinary. He is so feared by the opposition

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Speaker 2: that they call him the agent of infection.

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Speaker 3: And he joins me this week, Am and Fitzpatrick, Welcome

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Speaker 3: to the real story. How are you?

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Joe.

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Speaker 2: Always good to be with you, you know that, always

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Speaker 2: a pleasure to have you my friend. Now, you have

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Speaker 2: worked for I think the last three labor leaders, or

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Speaker 2: four if you count Kevin Rudd twice. You've worked you

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Speaker 2: run state elections right around the country, federal elections for

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Speaker 2: years and you really were given that Moniker, the agent

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Speaker 2: of infection, because the Queensland L and P were so

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Speaker 2: scared whenever you came to work on a campaign.

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Speaker 3: It's not fair.

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Speaker 2: They're getting people, they're getting people from outside Queensland to

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Speaker 2: come and help them. And they knew that you would

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Speaker 2: come in and win, and indeed you did time and

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Speaker 2: time and time again.

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Speaker 3: The government.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's just me, Maybe I'm maybe I'm just crazy,

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Speaker 2: but Albo seems to be having a bit of a

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Speaker 2: rough ride at the moment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, times are tough, there's no doubt about that, Joe.

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Speaker 1: But you know what politics is tough full stop. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can you know I've had days turned into months

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Speaker 1: into years where you are on this roller coaster. There's

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Speaker 1: only some things you can sort of steer, and there's

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Speaker 1: some things which just get away from things you will

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Speaker 1: never see coming or just come up. And so the

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Speaker 1: test is how quickly can you get onto that, how

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Speaker 1: quickly can you manage it, respond move on? And how

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Speaker 1: quickly do you launch a counter offensive?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 1: And that's the issue now Anthony is he's the PM.

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Speaker 1: He has When you actually look at his government's record,

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Speaker 1: you know they've done some pretty amazing things. So you

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Speaker 1: talk about all the budget stuff, right, ten years of deficits.

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Speaker 4: Guess what these guys two surpluses in a row.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, but that I mean, that was incredible luck

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Speaker 2: because they changed the way that they Okay, and again

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Speaker 2: you take the good luck in politics and you take

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Speaker 2: credit for it, but of course when the bad luck happens,

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Speaker 2: which are also factors beyond your control, then people are

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Speaker 2: gonna blame you, even when it's not your fault. Is

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Speaker 2: that kind of what's happening here. They're riding this wave

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Speaker 2: and suddenly the weather's changed.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly right. And the problem is people stop listening

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Speaker 1: to all the good stuff. Then you know, they stopped

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Speaker 1: listening when you're trying to tell them or having you

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Speaker 1: jobs came in under this government where inflation began, you know,

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Speaker 1: with the six and it's slowly trending down, and you

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Speaker 1: know a rate cut cannot comes to you enough.

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Speaker 4: So the problem is distraction people.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're all so busy. We're also busy. You know,

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Speaker 1: people have the capacity if you're lucky for one message

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Speaker 1: of the day, If you are lucky these days and

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Speaker 1: they're so heavily contested. Back in the day, we'd wake up,

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Speaker 1: you know, go through all the papers, have a laugh,

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Speaker 1: have breakfast.

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Speaker 4: Who does that?

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Speaker 2: You literally, well, everyone's struggling to make it quit, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's well. I mean, I know, I'm working like a dog.

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Speaker 2: I'm worried about the mortgage. I'm pretty well off compared

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Speaker 2: to most people. So I can only imagine. Well, I

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Speaker 2: don't have to imagine, because people tell me all the time.

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Speaker 2: They say, I'm up against it, I'm up against the wall.

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Speaker 2: And again you rattle off all those things that the

436
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 2: government is doing, but it doesn't feel like it to

437
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: those people, because even if it's helping them a bit,

438
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 2: they're still not as well off as they were a

439
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: year ago, two years ago.

440
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: Look one hundred percent. So I travel a lot and

441
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: work a lot in the region. I'm in countries where

442
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: and most of them are doing this lifting large numbers

443
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:14,639
Speaker 1: of people out of poverty.

444
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 4: In Australia.

445
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 1: The challenge is to keep this incredibly high standard living

446
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: and you know, things start to it's people have a

447
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: very very sort of set view about whether something has

448
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: been an issue or it hasn't. My favorite example is

449
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: the global financial crisis. The truth is we did not

450
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,959
Speaker 1: feel that here then we did not you know, and

451
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: so it's almost as if maybe it didn't.

452
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 4: Quite happen that way, you know, which is you look.

453
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: At countries around the world, and so I think people

454
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: see it through the sort of the odds filter. Life

455
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: is good, and people rightfully expect to continue their high

456
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,479
Speaker 1: standard living because you do work hard here and all

457
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: of those sorts of things. So I think that's part

458
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: of the challenge too, is this is one of the

459
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: few countries where the standard of living is so good

460
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: here that actually the political challenge is how you keep

461
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: improving that.

462
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 4: And you know that in itself was going to cause

463
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 4: a problem.

464
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: Expectations are high and again, well, I suppose we came

465
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 2: off something like twenty five years of uninterrupted economic growth

466
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: under Hawk, Keating, Coward and Costello.

467
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 3: How I mean, so anything's going to be rocky.

468
00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: I suppose compared to that we talked about sort of

469
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: you know, circumstances beyond control. You know, ninety percent of

470
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 2: leadership is crisis management. That's ninety percent of the job

471
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 2: of being PM. Is it a mistake, you know, to

472
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 2: own those good turns afoot again, when you know the

473
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 2: government was so lucky they kicked in the ass by

474
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 2: a rainbow, as they say, to get this budget surplus

475
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 2: thanks to strong iron ore, thanks to this.

476
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: New way of.

477
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,679
Speaker 2: Calculating the budget which came was due to come in

478
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 2: under the coalition, so totally fair play. Nothing the Labor

479
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,360
Speaker 2: did that was fiddley, but it was just really good

480
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: luck and they completely owned it as they would. They

481
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: blamed the Morrison government for the rising inflation and the

482
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: rising cost of living, and then when it kept going up,

483
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: suddenly it's kind of beyond that control. How like I

484
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: suppose how you you know, you deal with messaging, you

485
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: deal with how you sell these things. How risky is

486
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: it to claim credit for things.

487
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 3: That it didn't really do.

488
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: Because you then get saddled with all the baggage of

489
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: bad things that you also aren't responsible for.

490
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it is always a risk. And I think

491
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: what's been interesting. So here in New South Wales you

492
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: look at Chrismins. He is very much a new generation leader, right,

493
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: and he has not been shy about giving his predecessor's credit.

494
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 1: You look at the Metro, he was pretty generous about

495
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: that actually, and.

496
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: He's so he has invited all three premiers who presided

497
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: over the construction of the menu of the Metro to

498
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 2: ride on the inaugural train and people loved him for

499
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 2: that well and pretended it was all him.

500
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: You got it, you know, and it's like, you know,

501
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: so he's he's very much a new generation leader, you know,

502
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: who has really found his sort of pace and he's

503
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: moving through. People really respond to that because in him,

504
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: because he seemed to do that, they sort of think, well,

505
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 1: he's a fading him sort of guy, right, But that's

506
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: because what's contested in New South Wales. I think the

507
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: playing field's changed here a lot, whereas I think you

508
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: look at federal politics and that is still a little

509
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: bit more old school. It's still I mean, there's increasing,

510
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 1: you know, the margins of bleeding left, right and center.

511
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,959
Speaker 1: There's more independence coming into there's more of a fractioning

512
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: of views, but it's still, you know, I think it's

513
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: still very much is this very.

514
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: Old school sort of And this is where I think,

515
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 2: and tell me if you agree. This is where I

516
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: think Albo is struggling because a he played a really

517
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 2: small target strategy during the election campaign, which was the

518
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: smart tactical thing to do, and then he came into office.

519
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: He had a lot of good luck.

520
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: His signature, the thing that most people loved about him

521
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: was him breaking the promise about the Stage three tax

522
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 2: cuts and instead giving a tax cut to everybody. So

523
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: that was fantastic, but it was kind of him flipping

524
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: someone else's policy. It wasn't something he rode in on

525
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: a white charge during the election campaign saying this is

526
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: what I'm going to do for Australia. And as a

527
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: result of all that, he seems to be defined by

528
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: external forces. He hasn't really staked out this is who

529
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 2: I am, this is what I believe in, this is

530
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 2: what I stand for, this is what my values are. Instead,

531
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: he's someone who is sort of of the left originally.

532
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: He is very much and sincerely trying to be a

533
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 2: Prime Minister of the center. But I think a lot

534
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 2: of people sort of think, well, he's a nice guy,

535
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: but who is he? What does he really stand for?

536
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: What are his values? And I think that is part

537
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: of the reason why he's been so battered by the

538
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: anti Semitism stuff, because people are kind of going, well,

539
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: hang on a minute, you say all these things. You know,

540
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: you say all the right things, your mouth, all the platitudes,

541
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: but I don't really know where you stand on Israel.

542
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: I don't know where you really stand on these.

543
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 3: Kind of issues. How much of a problem is that

544
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: do you think?

545
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 4: Well, it can be a problem.

546
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: But let me also say this, Joe, So almost every

547
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: leader I've worked for made in the job, and we

548
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: don't give that enough acknowledgment. And it's not we're not

549
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: just talking about labor people. You look at John Howard,

550
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: I mean, people forget his first term was a little

551
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: bit all over the place.

552
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 4: You know, it was that all sorts of things going on.

553
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: Yet he's people look back and they see him as

554
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: a very definitive, strong leader who said what he was

555
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: going to do, but it took him a long time

556
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: to get there. Let's let's be honest about that. He

557
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: also had an incredibly long career, you know, the prime ministers.

558
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: You know.

559
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: Challenge I think is he also has had a very

560
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: long career that I've worked alongside him. I was lucky,

561
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: you know, doing you know, some of the parliamentary tactics

562
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: when he was the Leader.

563
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 3: Of the House.

564
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: I mean, this guy, he knows he did that job

565
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: in very difficult circumstances.

566
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 3: You know.

567
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: He's a very as student negotiator as well, you know,

568
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: and he did a lot of good things for infrastructure

569
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: in this country, so he actually does have a track record.

570
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: You can do a million things, just like Julia Gillard

571
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: who went from deputy prime minister to the top job,

572
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: and Kevin Rudd into the top job. You only made

573
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: a leader when you get into the job, and sometimes

574
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: it takes a little while, and we are very impatient.

575
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: Are the twenty first century instant gratification. I'm glad you

576
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: mentioned John Howard because that is something I bring up

577
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 2: all the time. And one of my favorite political sort

578
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: of mantras is about John Howard. And it was said

579
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: of John Howard that he made every single mistake in

580
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 2: the book, but he only ever made it once. In

581
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 2: other words, he made lots of mistakes, but he didn't

582
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: make this act. He learned from each of them and

583
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: he didn't repeat them. I have been saying the same

584
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 2: of Anthony Albert Easy. I'm not sure if I've just

585
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: sort of biased naive, but do you think he is

586
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: learning from all his mistakes? Do you think he's you know,

587
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: is he learning from his mistakes or is he, as

588
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: some people say, just too slow to act, too slow

589
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: to react, not getting ahead of problems as they sort

590
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: of bubble.

591
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 4: Up well you look.

592
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it's always a judgment call as to when

593
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: is the right time. You've got to remember too, as

594
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: prime minister, you attract an awful lot of attention, so

595
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: it may be that people might not need you around

596
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: at a particular moment either straight away. They might want

597
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: you to come later. So you're making judgment calls the

598
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: whole time. You know, when I work for Julia Gillard,

599
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: we'd turn up places. It was always do we go now,

600
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: do we hang off a little bit, let things happen

601
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: and not be into.

602
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: His classic thing is like a bushfire or a flood

603
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: or something the politician rocks up too soon, it's oh

604
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: they're trying to make you've got a capital out of it.

605
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: They're getting in the way of emergency workers, trying to

606
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: make it like they're the big, strong leader in a

607
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: natural disaster. But if they take too long, it's like

608
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: missing in action. There I you might as well be

609
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 2: in Hawaii.

610
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 4: There you go.

611
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, who knows, you know what's

612
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: been happening in the last few days. But you know,

613
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: it is a very tumultuous time. Things like you've got

614
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: to be very considered around some things. Because it's quite

615
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: an inflammatory situation if you think about it, and now

616
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,479
Speaker 1: about a second attack and all this sort of stuff.

617
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: Plus he is having to you know, as a leader,

618
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: you make judgments against what your what your opponents are saying,

619
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: and they've been particularly inflammatory. You look at some of

620
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: the yesterday happening not standing by a flag, I mean.

621
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: Just on that say, you made reference obviously to the

622
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: suspected fire bombing of a synagogue. I mean, let's face it,

623
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: the synagogue was fire and bomb but there's a legal

624
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: process underway now in Sydney.

625
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 3: That was in Melbourne and Sydney.

626
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: Of course, there's been an attack overnight on Tuesday to

627
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: Wednesday of an attack in the eastern suburbs of Sydney,

628
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: very high Jewish population, just ugly, ugly staff. That follows

629
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: another attack a few weeks ago on the synagogue. In particular,

630
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: the PM was criticized for staying in wa for a

631
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: few days, having a game of tennis on Saturday afternoon.

632
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: If you work in crisis management, if you were advising him,

633
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: and again you don't want to be too hard. He's

634
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: a human being, and you know it's good to you

635
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: need to exercise for your mental health. But if you're

636
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 2: advising him, would you have said, as soon as the

637
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: news came through on that Friday morning, there's been an

638
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: attack on a synagogue in Melbourne. I think you should

639
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: get on a plane and be there.

640
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: Look, it's in hindsight it's easier to make judgments. But

641
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: what we don't know is what was going on in

642
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: his day. I mean, from what he said he was

643
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: committed to half a dozen things already. It would have

644
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: been incredibly challenging and no doubt would have disappointed a

645
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: whole bunch of other people who are waiting for him,

646
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: including another Jewish community event, which is my understanding. So

647
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's in hindsight you should have done this,

648
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: and you should have done that. You know, you don't

649
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: know who's told what and when. That's the other thing.

650
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 1: Sometimes that information chain can take a while. You know,

651
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,239
Speaker 1: working in this business, people who work for you and

652
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: around you. You know, whether the departments or offices, people

653
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 1: making judgments, Who needs to know what and when? You know,

654
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure they would have told him. But the point

655
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: is his schedule is locked in so far in advance

656
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: that there's.

657
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 4: Very little room to sort of move around.

658
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: Really, you know, and so was he exercising after a

659
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: very very full, long day. Yep, as he had a

660
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: day off not lately. But you know, he said, that's

661
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: a separate thing that is not unreasonable. You know, it's

662
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 1: the optics you start to have to be concerned about.

663
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 2: And again you don't want to be sort of too

664
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: unkind with the concert comparison, but again you can't help

665
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: but think of Chris Mins, who was going on a

666
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 2: holiday with his family overseas, touches down as soon as

667
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: the phone comes on.

668
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 3: He realized there's a crisis back home.

669
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: He says to the family, off you go, sorry, and

670
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: he takes the next plane back.

671
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 3: People.

672
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 2: I mean, whether that made a huge amount of difference

673
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 2: or not, you can sort of debate. You've got to

674
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: feel sorry for his family, You've got to feel sorry

675
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: for him. But that gesture and the fact that people

676
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: know about that just makes people think this is the guy,

677
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: This is the guy who can handle a crisis. Just

678
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 2: because he made that snap call, a lot of people

679
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 2: are saying. Another one of my favorite quotes is Winston

680
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: Churchill says about the Americans, they'll always do the right

681
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 2: thing once they've tried everything else.

682
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 3: Albo, I think is doing the right thing. He's doing

683
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: the right thing.

684
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: I think appointing the Anti Semitism Task Force in the

685
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: counter Terrorism Unit of the AFP, that's a fantastic thing

686
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: to do, coming synagogue, that's a great thing to do.

687
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 2: He's talking to Jewish leaders. But it just seems to

688
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: be always just a little bit light. He seems to

689
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: be doing it on the back foot instead of on

690
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 2: the front foot. And therefore, even when he does the

691
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 2: right thing, he doesn't get the credit for it because

692
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 2: people are saying, oh, it's too like is that fair?

693
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: And Joe, that's the challenging government, right, because you are

694
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: actually there are very very few occasions when you are

695
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: responding to something that is unprecedented. I mean, there is

696
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 1: a shameful history in this country of attacks on Jewish sites.

697
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: Synagogue's got over thirty forty fifty years now. In this

698
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: government's case, they did. They've changed, They've brought in harsher laws.

699
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: They've made things an offense, you know, doing a Nazis solute,

700
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff.

701
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 4: I mean, they've changed those laws.

702
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: They've sent some pretty clear, consistent signals that this sort

703
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: of outrageous stuff should not be tolerated. But then you

704
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: get into the pressure cooker situation where one thing happens

705
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: and then another thing happens, and it starts to spiral,

706
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: and it's trying to keep all of those things in

707
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: the air. I remember, you know, I remember probably one

708
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: of the most challenging days I worked for Julia Gillard.

709
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: You look at Julia now, she is revered as she

710
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: should be, and people only are staying to appreciate what

711
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: she had to go through and the way she was treated. Honestly,

712
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: it was not fair. It was you know, there's no

713
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: room for fairness and politics. That's the other thing you

714
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 1: sort of learned quickly. That's right.

715
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: And you talk about the need to be able to

716
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: bring people together, which is hard enough at the best

717
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: of times, lit alone in times of crisis like this,

718
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: both an economic crisis and a social crisis. I had

719
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: a look at my suspicions were confirmed as soon as

720
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: Antio Albanese. He did say he was going to synagogue

721
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: and he'd show up and everything, and so of course

722
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: he gets heckled at the synagogue, which I think is

723
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 2: a bit mean spirited.

724
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: I don't like that sort of stuff.

725
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 2: I didn't like it when it happened to Scott Morrison

726
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: or anyone else, and I don't like it when it

727
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: happens to Anti Alberanesi.

728
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 3: But also the minute that happened.

729
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: He's got the Jewish community saying too little, too late,

730
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: where were you when we needed you? But instantly you

731
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 2: have crazy left wing activists and elements of the Muslim

732
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: community as well, not most, I don't think, but some

733
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: who were saying, oh, well, now you're going into the

734
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 2: sitting and go, oh you care all about any sementism?

735
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 3: What about us?

736
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: We're getting killed by the tens of thousands. Oh, this

737
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 2: Muslim bus was firebombed, you know, in Adelaide. But you

738
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: know you never went to that school or you never

739
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 2: And so as soon as he does anything for one side,

740
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: he's immediately attacked by the other. How does firstly, do

741
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: you think you do crisis management? This is clearly I

742
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: think a crisis of some kind or another. How would

743
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 2: you advise the PM to navigate his way through it

744
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 2: and hopefully, if possible, you know, turn it around so

745
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: that crisis goes away, is managed, and he then is

746
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 2: able to go on and win the next election.

747
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 3: Do you think that is.

748
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: A going concern. Do you think firstly that he can

749
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 2: manage to turn it around and win the next election.

750
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: Well, I think in the last twenty four hours he's

751
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 1: actually made it very very clear. I mean, you know

752
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: that he's been very clear about his intentions, you know,

753
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: And I think the point you're making is exactly it. It's

754
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: it is a difficult judgment call to make sometimes, like

755
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 1: when do you insert yourself right? How do you respond?

756
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: Are you, you know, putting other things at risk? And

757
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 1: that is a huge challenge. So that's exactly right, Joe,

758
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 1: Can you turn it around? Well, look, his government has

759
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 1: done a lot of great things. They're still doing good things.

760
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: Now he's announced you know, three years childcare. You know

761
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: he's going to get rid of that testament. It's an

762
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: amazing thing.

763
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: That's the best strategy to just change the subject and

764
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 2: try and say, look, this is bad, I know, but

765
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: look at all this good stuff. Or do you still

766
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: have to do you have to fix the biggest problem.

767
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 2: I mean, he's got to find a way to manage.

768
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 4: Well, he's doing both.

769
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: I mean he's been you know, I think he you know,

770
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: he can now see that, you know, it's more than

771
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: the right time to make sure that he is seen

772
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: and his government has seen.

773
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 4: I mean every minister has been up.

774
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: I mean the truth is, you know, you know, my

775
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: understanding is there was a senior cabinet minister there anyway

776
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: in Melbourne, you know, very early that morning. Other MPs

777
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: showed up, so you know, but it's it's a case

778
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 1: of making sure everybody is on song and coordinating.

779
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 4: You know.

780
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 1: Governments are huge. They deal with multiple issues. Things are

781
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: in the planning for months. It's really it can be

782
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: hard to to shift an announcement where they've gone through

783
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: a whole productivity commission review.

784
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 4: There's money set us.

785
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: You can just imagine, right, I mean, trying to turn

786
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: that Titanic around, you know, and then everyone who's geared

787
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: up to be there and they have.

788
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 3: To announce the childcare stuff no matter what else is

789
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 3: going on.

790
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: And sometimes it doesn't always cut through as much as

791
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: you'd like it too.

792
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 4: I mean, governments do more than one thing at once.

793
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 1: Your audience can only take in one message at once,

794
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 1: and that's a perennial frustration. As a former press sect,

795
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: that was always frustrating to me. But that's the way

796
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: it is. So there's a reason why they governments when

797
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: they operate, they try to focus on one issue that

798
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: they want, proactive, positive announcement of the day and the

799
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: rest of its defense, you know, and then something like

800
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: this is appalling stuff happens and it just takes you

801
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: out into a different path altogether. So you've got to

802
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: find a way back. You need to deal with that problem.

803
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: And I think it's clear when you know, you see

804
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: his column today in the newspaper, everything he said. You know,

805
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: it doesn't hurt to remind people. Actually they have been mischaracterized,

806
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: and I think quite unfairly at times, you know, so

807
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: just to remind people of their you know, more recent

808
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 1: track record.

809
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 4: So and they are doing that, what.

810
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 2: Would your advice be to to the p and what

811
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: do you think he needs to do from now until

812
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: the next election.

813
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: Well, I mean he got he doesn't need my advice,

814
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: I can tell you. But look, you know, I mean

815
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: they need to, you know, which is what they are doing.

816
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 1: Just get back to the things that actually resonate, which

817
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,439
Speaker 1: is I've got your back, and how have you got

818
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: my back? I've got your bank because I'm going to

819
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 1: give you make sure your family's got access to childcare

820
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,279
Speaker 1: that you've got a proper tax cut that you can

821
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: get a job that your children. At least we're doing

822
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: trying to do stuff around house. That's what you have

823
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: to do. Whereas and then compare and contry us with

824
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: the other guys, they still have nothing. I mean, that's

825
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: I think that's fascinating too.

826
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: So politics is just much messier, more chaotic, more risk prone,

827
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: so many more platforms to screw up on. And that's

828
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 2: why I suppose we're seeing such a collapse in faith

829
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 2: in the major parties generally, in institutions. Generally, we'll just

830
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 2: go to hell and the handbasker.

831
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 4: You got it, That's exactly where we go.

832
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: Joe Master of the Dark Arts, Ada Fitzpatrick, thank you

833
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 2: so much for joining us on the real story.

834
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 4: My pleasure always great through with you.

835
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 2: And that is all we have time for this week.

836
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: I hope it hasn't been too depressing, too profound. I

837
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: am pretty profound. I can't help it. I am also

838
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: pretty depressing. Just us, my wife. That's all we have

839
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: time for this week. If you like what you're hear,

840
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: give us a rating, give us a review on whatever

841
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 2: app or device or however it is you get these things.

842
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: If you want us to talk about anything, got any feedback,

843
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 2: any questions, Just email the Real Story at no A

844
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: podcast dot com dot au or you can hit me

845
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 2: up on Instagram. I'm want at Joe Underscore Hildebrand. You

846
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 2: can slide into my DMS. I don't know why Instagram

847
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 2: is the only thing I'm on. I just got sick

848
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: of all the others and I thought, damn, I'm just

849
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 2: too good looking to give.

850
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 3: This one away.

851
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 2: I'm just giving the housewives of Australia what they need.

852
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: And of course, if you'd like to read more of

853
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: what I have to say, you can always find me

854
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: in a Daily Telegraph and other newsmaster heads around the

855
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 2: country every Monday and Saturday and until next week.

856
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 3: Bye bye,