Speaker 1: Welcome to the mentor. I'm Ike Boris Curtis. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the mentor.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Do you like the way we pronounced your surname?
Speaker 2: Very well done.
Speaker 1: Thank Marley courtis Marley quit. Now you are I'm going
Speaker 1: to get this right now. You're the consul general, Yes,
Speaker 1: of Greece or for Greece in New South Wales.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: Maybe you can explain to me how does this I've
Speaker 1: always been intrigued. I mean, I know we've got an ambassador,
Speaker 1: Greek ambassador, but he lives in Canberra. But then the
Speaker 1: consul general what is that? How does that work? And
Speaker 1: do we have one every stayed in Australia.
Speaker 2: Okay, So we have one ambassador in Canberra who's in
Speaker 2: charge of the bilateral relations and he's our boss. Then
Speaker 2: we've got three consulates general. The largest is in Melbourne,
Speaker 2: then here in Sydney and Adelaide, and the fourth is
Speaker 2: in Perth. It's a consulate, not a consulate general. So
Speaker 2: the four consulates and Consulates general, they deal mostly with
Speaker 2: the Greek community rather than with bilateral relations. The ambassador
Speaker 2: has the oversight, but again he his purview, his remed
Speaker 2: is mostly bilateral relations is Australia.
Speaker 1: But when you say bilateral relations, that means how Australia
Speaker 1: increas in policy since exact.
Speaker 2: Right exactly, from foreign policy to trade to other issues.
Speaker 2: Whereas my mandate is mostly to deal with the Greek
Speaker 2: Australian community in New South Wales and cater for their
Speaker 2: for their needs, renewals of renewal of passports, citizenship, which
Speaker 2: is probably the most demanding powers of attorney. Legal issues.
Speaker 2: They've got property issues, military service deferment, things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's you made a very interesting point. Actually
Speaker 1: one I've always been very curious about property issues. And
Speaker 1: then you're talking about Australian or Greek Australians or Australian
Speaker 1: Greeks who may have dual citizenship because that's something that
Speaker 1: Australia does and Greece does, so they might have someone
Speaker 1: like me. I've got your dual citizenship, which means I've
Speaker 1: got a passport in Greek and an Australian passport. But
Speaker 1: maybe we own property in Greece, for example, and it
Speaker 1: could have been your father's, my father's property, or might
Speaker 1: have bought something whatever. What are the property issues, the
Speaker 1: sort of property issues that the people who come to
Speaker 1: your consulate, what are they what are they worried about?
Speaker 1: What are the issues? I mean? Are they worried about
Speaker 1: things like paying tax in Greece or is there something
Speaker 1: because it is Greeks. Grece is a member of the
Speaker 1: European Union, and as some of the European Union countries
Speaker 1: actually charged people who are non residents and extra tax
Speaker 1: if they're not living in the property in Europe. Is
Speaker 1: that the sort of thing you're talking about.
Speaker 2: There are two main issues we've got on this. One
Speaker 2: is inheritance. So a Greek Australian who has left, well,
Speaker 2: his grandparents have left, and decades later he finds out
Speaker 2: that he has inherited property in Greece. You don't need
Speaker 2: to be a Greek citizen to inherit property, but it
Speaker 2: makes it easier. So that is where problems sometimes arise,
Speaker 2: because they want to quickly become Greek citizens to be
Speaker 2: able to sort out their their their dealings in Greece.
Speaker 2: And when it comes to taxing you probably know this.
Speaker 2: We've started a negotiation the two countries to agree on
Speaker 2: a double te Stesson avoidance.
Speaker 1: Agreement, which we've never had before.
Speaker 2: No, we haven't and we haven't reached the point yet,
Speaker 2: but hopefully within the foreseeable future we will reach an
Speaker 2: agreement and that will help many Greek Australians.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because what you're talking about here, Rannests. We're talking
Speaker 1: about here trying to and I don't mean it in
Speaker 1: a sinister sense, but avoid being taxed twice.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, if you've got.
Speaker 1: Income in Greece, you don't want to have to pay
Speaker 1: tax in Greece and then when you come back to
Speaker 1: austraighta pay tax again. You want to get a credit
Speaker 1: for what you pay in Greece. Or altern ofly, if
Speaker 1: you live in Greece but you're an Australian citizen, you're
Speaker 1: an income you want to get a credit for what
Speaker 1: you're paying Australia.
Speaker 2: And your global income is here. If you're a Greek Australian,
Speaker 2: that's where you declare taxes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's how the Australian government works. Yes, So
Speaker 1: in your job, then I guess you're getting lots and
Speaker 1: lots of inquiry because you know, I've been up to
Speaker 1: the consulate there and this is the one down across
Speaker 1: the road from the Alpha restaurant. Exactly, great gaps building, Yes, and.
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker 1: It must be sort of exhausting sometimes because some of
Speaker 1: the people can get pretty upset simple things like passports,
Speaker 1: like passport renew exactly, it takes a long time.
Speaker 2: No, passport renewal is quite simple, actually we should be.
Speaker 2: Citizenship is more complicated, and these two issues are often
Speaker 2: conflated by Greek Australians. It probably has to do with
Speaker 2: how they see how things work in Australia. Every day
Speaker 2: we receive tens of emails in which the Greek Australians request.
Speaker 1: For a passport.
Speaker 2: When you receive that, you probably think that the sender
Speaker 2: is an existing Greek citizen who wants to renew or
Speaker 2: issue his Greek or Greek passport, Whereas it's usually a
Speaker 2: Greek Australian of Greek descent who wants to become a
Speaker 2: Greek citizen to be eligible for a passport in the future.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to renewals of existing Greek citizens,
Speaker 2: that's done within two months from the moment you come
Speaker 2: and apply. Two months later, you've got your passport.
Speaker 1: Is that done? Here? Do you have the deination?
Speaker 2: We send the application back home and then the passport
Speaker 2: is sent to us and we give it to the applicant.
Speaker 2: There's no problem with passport renewals or issues of passport passports.
Speaker 2: The problem is when it comes to citizenship, because there's
Speaker 2: a very large demand, high demand, there's a backlog, and
Speaker 2: we have a lean set up. Still we're trying to
Speaker 2: The Greek government has announced that we will employ locally
Speaker 2: and we have recently made an announcement to employ three
Speaker 2: local staff which will help who will help in resolving
Speaker 2: these issues. But there's a very high demand and backlog
Speaker 2: for citizenship in Greece. Here Greek Australians who want to
Speaker 2: become dual citizens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why do they want to become? Well, what was
Speaker 1: the objective?
Speaker 2: I would say there there's a romantic or sentimental answer
Speaker 2: to your question, and there's a more utilitarian one. The
Speaker 2: romantic one is that they want to reconnect to the
Speaker 2: to the homeland of their grandparents and at a later
Speaker 2: stage in their lives there they want to go, not
Speaker 2: go back for good, but to be able to go
Speaker 2: back frequently and why not have property and they want
Speaker 2: to you know, re establish this connection which perhaps they
Speaker 2: have lost because their grandparents have passed. So on the
Speaker 2: other one, the more practical or pragmatic reason is that
Speaker 2: a Greek passport provides more options in your life for
Speaker 2: the future, whether you want to work in Europe, whether
Speaker 2: you want to travel in Europe without the ninety day limit,
Speaker 2: and in general to have your options open for the future.
Speaker 2: You feel more secure to also have a European passport
Speaker 2: as they call it. They confuse that they call it
Speaker 2: European passport. It's not the European passport. It's a Greek passport.
Speaker 2: We don't have European passport. We've got French, Greek, Irish passports, yeah,
Speaker 2: and German, et cetera.
Speaker 1: But at each one of those countries maybe the European
Speaker 1: Union as rexactly, you get the benefits.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get the benefits of being part of this
Speaker 2: larger family which is called European Union.
Speaker 1: But you honest could you could you also maybe it's
Speaker 1: a third one is a third one? And if I
Speaker 1: can suggest Greece become really popular, like it's trending. It's
Speaker 1: not trendy, and it's trendy, but it's trending big time. Yes,
Speaker 1: could there be? Have you noticed a greater demand for
Speaker 1: citizenship dual citizenship from Australians so Greek descendant Australians. If
Speaker 1: that's the word, have you sent an increase in demand
Speaker 1: because of the new popularity what I can see to
Speaker 1: be the new popularity of being Greek or going to Greece.
Speaker 2: Yes, perhaps that is it, especially in the past five years,
Speaker 2: I tell you, yes. And what is positive is that
Speaker 2: when Greek Australians go back to Greece there are probably
Speaker 2: the highest vendors. Is that right? They really helped the economy.
Speaker 2: Greek Australian tourists are good tourists, so yes. The ninety
Speaker 2: day limit which they have restrains them and limits their options.
Speaker 2: So they want to be able to travel more often
Speaker 2: and stay for longereriods of time, especially retired Greeks.
Speaker 1: Greek Australian and I don't know which part of Greece
Speaker 1: you're from. You're obviously born in Greece. And where were
Speaker 1: you born in Greece?
Speaker 2: I was born in Athens. I'm a third generation Athenian.
Speaker 2: But my grandfather left from Kalamata at the age of
Speaker 2: sixteen to go to the Greek military academy school Leveloped
Speaker 2: and it's called so he left at sixteen. He became
Speaker 2: an officer of the Greek Army. And then my father
Speaker 2: was born in Athens and so was I.
Speaker 1: And what was your education educated in Athens? Did you
Speaker 1: go to an international school?
Speaker 2: Yes, I went to an international school in Athens and
Speaker 2: I studied in tertiary education in the United Kingdom.
Speaker 1: You went on to study now for your generation, is
Speaker 1: that a typical move that you go to do your
Speaker 1: university outside of Greece.
Speaker 2: At the time, the UK was very popular because it
Speaker 2: was still before Brexit.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So there were no fees and I remember my university face.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: I remember my late father telling me that it's cheaper
Speaker 2: to send me there than to send me to Thesaloniki,
Speaker 2: which was probably an exaggeration, but that's how cheap it
Speaker 2: was for us. We didn't pay any fees. We just
Speaker 2: had to pay living expenses, and outside London life was
Speaker 2: quite affordable.
Speaker 1: Then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, then this is thirty five years ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then what did you study thirty years I say,
Speaker 1: you got a whole lot of university degrees, but like
Speaker 1: you've done a lot of study.
Speaker 2: My first degree was in history and politics at the
Speaker 2: University of Nottingham, second degree European Politics and policy at
Speaker 2: the London School of Economics.
Speaker 1: Wow, London School of Economics. Yes, that in Chicago were
Speaker 1: the two great schools economic schools in the world.
Speaker 2: Yes, well yeah, it still is quite high up in
Speaker 2: the rankings. Yeah. And the third international law at the
Speaker 2: University of Geneva.
Speaker 1: So, and were you always set for this diplomatic style career?
Speaker 2: Was that? I mean I had influences in my family
Speaker 2: and we were highly let's say politicized family. We spoke
Speaker 2: about international relations and politics. But my plan initially was
Speaker 2: to become an academic. I wanted to study. I wanted
Speaker 2: to become a professor, university history professor. And in the
Speaker 2: course this changed, especially when I came back to Greece
Speaker 2: to serve in the military. My life changed. So I
Speaker 2: decided to go into the workforce.
Speaker 1: And you might explain you I said, and I'm not
Speaker 1: sure if it's still the case, but military service is compulsory.
Speaker 2: Yes, it is still still for everyone. At the time,
Speaker 2: it was almost two years I did twenty three months.
Speaker 2: Now it's much less. It's a year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I remember, and I'm pretty old, but I
Speaker 1: remember when I first went to Greece, when I was
Speaker 1: twenty five years ago, which is forty three plus years ago.
Speaker 1: My first trip de Greece, I shared to get a
Speaker 1: letter signed by the Australian Consulate I think it was
Speaker 1: Australian Consulate saying that I was also an Australian citizen,
Speaker 1: so I had an exemption, but I couldn't stay more
Speaker 1: than thirty days at the time in Greece, otherwise you
Speaker 1: have to do military service. They stop you at the
Speaker 1: then they stopped you at the airport and ask.
Speaker 2: You yes, what you have to do is on once
Speaker 2: you become a Greek citizen, you need to get to
Speaker 2: do the paperwork to get a deferment. With this deferment,
Speaker 2: you can reside. You can stay in Greece for up
Speaker 2: to six months a year without serving as a Greek
Speaker 2: from abroad. If you exceed this time, then you have
Speaker 2: to serve three months. That's the rule. The thirty day
Speaker 2: rule is for those who have not done the paperwork
Speaker 2: just go into the country without having received this deferment.
Speaker 2: So that must be that you have to leave within
Speaker 2: thirty days.
Speaker 1: Yes, that must have been sort of what was happening.
Speaker 1: That's the sort of deal. Because I had no deferment
Speaker 1: and had made any application, so they just said I
Speaker 1: could stay thirty days. And I recall someone telling me
Speaker 1: that the rule in Greece was if your father's born
Speaker 1: in Greece, your Greek. Like that's that's the legal rule.
Speaker 1: That's the view, not your mother, your father, your father's Greek.
Speaker 2: All this has changed, like you has it yes early eighties,
Speaker 2: we had many reforms on these issues. Before eighty four,
Speaker 2: a woman, for example, could not pass on Greek citizenship
Speaker 2: to her children. It was only the father, only the father.
Speaker 2: This has changed after nineteen eighty four, and Greek citizenship
Speaker 2: is by blood, it's not by territory, so it doesn't
Speaker 2: make a difference whether you were born in Greece. If
Speaker 2: you're a foreigner and born in Greece, you don't immediately
Speaker 2: have a right to Greek citizenship, Whereas if you're born
Speaker 2: abroad but your parents are Greek, you're also eligible to
Speaker 2: become a Greek citizen, but you don't automatically become one.
Speaker 2: You have to be registered.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, my father registry. But my father registered me,
Speaker 1: then you became Yeah, why he did it, but he did.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize he didn't tell me, but then he
Speaker 1: told me many years later that when I was born,
Speaker 1: he registered me. Yeah, I don't understand what was my
Speaker 1: dad was thinking. Maybe it was being pretty modern at
Speaker 1: the time, but or maybe the other way, maybe it's
Speaker 1: just being old fashioned as well. And as a result
Speaker 1: of that, a lot of things flowed. When I mean,
Speaker 1: I understand what you do on a day day bas
Speaker 1: at which your consulate does. You're obviously the boss in
Speaker 1: New South Wales, but you're not stamping passports things like that.
Speaker 1: But nonetheless I understand what you do. But how important
Speaker 1: is your role? Because I often go to functions, for example,
Speaker 1: the Hellenic Initiative, et cetera, where I see representative diplomatic
Speaker 1: representatives of the Greek government at those events, sometimes the
Speaker 1: ambassadors even there. How important is your role in maintaining
Speaker 1: maintaining I don't know if that's the right word. Fostering
Speaker 1: perhaps is a better word. Greek culture in Australia for Australians,
Speaker 1: but also for those people who hankering to have that
Speaker 1: Greek culture maintain they're probably people who have Greek descendants.
Speaker 2: I would say it is extremely important, and it is
Speaker 2: after six o'clock because from name to six it's what
Speaker 2: you said. Yeah, So basically day to day more bureaucratic
Speaker 2: stuff after six, it's representing the Greek government within the
Speaker 2: Greek Australian community, but also bilaterally with authorities on New.
Speaker 1: South Wales as in government.
Speaker 2: Yes, for a function of the Premier or of some
Speaker 2: minister I would be there as well. Or relations with
Speaker 2: the consular core here, which is one of the largest
Speaker 2: in the world, or even meetings with other community leaders,
Speaker 2: for example the Jewish community of Sydney. But the most
Speaker 2: important part is undoubtedly representing the Greek state in the
Speaker 2: functions of the Greek community and promoting Greek culture and
Speaker 2: fostering bonds between the two countries. I think what is important,
Speaker 2: especially for Australian born Greeks, is to find the different
Speaker 2: stories or elements that connect our two countries. Because when
Speaker 2: our grandparents came here, there was a very strong parochial
Speaker 2: element to their identity. They came from their villages, they
Speaker 2: brought this with them and they were organized on the
Speaker 2: basis of that. So they had associations from let's say
Speaker 2: Tripoli or Kalamata or Thessaloniki. That is waning because Greek
Speaker 2: Australians born in Australia don't have the same memories or
Speaker 2: experiences from Greece. So the challenge is to find those
Speaker 2: elements that make Greek Australians proud of their heritage but
Speaker 2: also connect them to their new homeland. A typical example
Speaker 2: is the anzac story of Australians fighting for Greek freedom
Speaker 2: during both World Wars, the Limnos story, which was brought
Speaker 2: into light in the past ten years, the importance of
Speaker 2: Lemnos during the Gallipoli Campaign, the fact that it was
Speaker 2: the logistics hub of the Australians, and in the Second
Speaker 2: World War, the participation of Australians in the Greek campaign
Speaker 2: and in the Battle of Crete. These stories foster bonds
Speaker 2: between our two countries and they make Greek Australians proud
Speaker 2: and they managed to include themselves themselves in the equation
Speaker 2: of the Greek Australian story.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting that you say, because you made me
Speaker 1: think back when my dad's elder brother, Nick, he was
Speaker 1: the secretary of the Panaccadian Society in Australia, which is
Speaker 1: sort of a region of Greece where my family came from.
Speaker 1: But those societies, if they exist, they're not very prevalent
Speaker 1: anymore in fact, but the Pannicadian would have an annual function.
Speaker 1: These things don't exist anymore. They don't have these annual
Speaker 1: functions give all a big deal.
Speaker 2: They do, but they are mostly focused towards that generation
Speaker 2: older people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, whereas the younger people probably looking for something else
Speaker 1: to identify with. And I remember, I mean when I
Speaker 1: was I'll quickly tell this story before we go to
Speaker 1: the break and comeback. But because I do want to
Speaker 1: talk to you about your Prime Minister, the great work
Speaker 1: he's doing in Greece and the reputation Greece is getting
Speaker 1: worldwide in a commercial sense. But I do remember when
Speaker 1: I was fifteen, I was the second oldest cousin and
Speaker 1: a third oldest cousin in my family. I got a
Speaker 1: lot of cousins. Can you imagine seven boys, lots of kids,
Speaker 1: grandkids and etc. But I used to have to take
Speaker 1: I used to have to partner female cousins to the
Speaker 1: Young Matrons Ball Greek Young Greek Matrons Ball, which is
Speaker 1: just to be held at what was called the wink
Speaker 1: With Hotel was now called the Softa Tel Hotel, and
Speaker 1: you just have to go and learn in the middle
Speaker 1: of summer every Saturday, Greek dancing at the Hellenic Club
Speaker 1: in Elizabeth Street because all my friends were going to
Speaker 1: the beach and it was summer and and but this
Speaker 1: was because the ball was but it was a big event.
Speaker 1: The archbishop used to go. Everybody sort of went. My
Speaker 1: family went, my parents, my uncle's aunties, everybody. I had
Speaker 1: tables and you wore.
Speaker 2: It's still a very big thing for community.
Speaker 1: But it's more than the Kazis do it. I think
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if they just do it.
Speaker 2: They still have mat to it every June usually.
Speaker 1: They do it, and they still do it and it's
Speaker 1: still a big event.
Speaker 2: And the Kutherians and the Catherians, the two balls over
Speaker 2: the calendar. I think, here are those two right, They're
Speaker 2: still doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good because I wasn't sure because but I
Speaker 1: thought to myself, I actually used to think it was
Speaker 1: very parochial. I didn't know that word when I was fifteen,
Speaker 1: but that sort of was more the description. I used
Speaker 1: to think, why are they doing this like this and why?
Speaker 1: I mean, my cousins they were you know, they were
Speaker 1: born in Australia and they didn't need to wear the
Speaker 1: dress to be for the first time that it wasn't
Speaker 1: like the first time they've ever been out, but we're
Speaker 1: doing doing that in a sort of symbolic way.
Speaker 2: It is though it is not so parochial in the
Speaker 2: sense that it is an adaptation to a strain in life,
Speaker 2: because we don't have debutante balls in Greece. Oh really,
Speaker 2: we never had something like that. That is very British.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting because it's exactly this example of Greeks
Speaker 2: wanting to fit in and in the same ball, you've
Speaker 2: got people dressed as they would be in a British
Speaker 2: deputant ball in the nineteenth century. But at the end
Speaker 2: of the function they dance Greek. Ye they did, So
Speaker 2: it is a combination of the two.
Speaker 1: Worlds that's very interesting.
Speaker 2: At these events, they're not so parochial as they might seem.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad to hear they're still holding them. I
Speaker 1: mean now, as an old and much older man, I'm
Speaker 1: actually quite happy please that they still holding him. I
Speaker 1: want to get break, and I'm going to come straight
Speaker 1: back because I do want to talk to you about
Speaker 1: your prime minister. Okay, I'm back from break, and now
Speaker 1: let's talk about your current prime minister. Progressive, Can you
Speaker 1: just give us a bit of a story about your promise,
Speaker 1: and how has he thought of in Greece.
Speaker 2: Just to point out that I represent the Greek states
Speaker 2: under the Greek government.
Speaker 1: I understand. So you're in another words, you're not pro
Speaker 1: or against the Prime Minister.
Speaker 2: I'm a bit on thin ice on this one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta be careful.
Speaker 2: Yes, the Greek government is. In terms of the economy,
Speaker 2: the Greek state is doing very well. Yeah, figures are
Speaker 2: looking good, indicators are good. We get positive press, especially
Speaker 2: in the Economists and other important international journals, and public
Speaker 2: debt as well, which was a huge problem ten years ago.
Speaker 1: Pope post GFC, yes, yes, a big it has.
Speaker 2: It is dropping quickly and growth is also encouraging. So
Speaker 2: and there are major investments taking place in the country.
Speaker 2: Have you been to Athens recently? Yeah, yeah, there is.
Speaker 2: There are big projects going on and in terms of
Speaker 2: infrastructure as well. So the economy has picked up in
Speaker 2: the past few years.
Speaker 1: But I don't understand though, why all of a sudden.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've got huge, wealthy countries investing in Greece,
Speaker 1: especially at the old airport, like massive amounts of money
Speaker 1: we're talking about here, and yet if you go back
Speaker 1: to the GFC period, when Greece was in all sorts
Speaker 1: of trouble, which is when the Hellenic Initiative initiative was
Speaker 1: first launched to help people who are basically on the breadline,
Speaker 1: like really doing it tough, and a lot of Australians.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure this happened globally. I know it did
Speaker 1: happen to globally amongst the diasper around the world. They
Speaker 1: all formed the Hellenic Initiative, participated in it, and we
Speaker 1: raise money, et cetera, and I send the money back
Speaker 1: to Greece, and also did lots of other things. But
Speaker 1: since that period, commercially economically, Greece has seemed to have
Speaker 1: outperformed itself compared to previous years. Has become very progressive,
Speaker 1: allowing developments, also allowing a lot of international funds to
Speaker 1: come into Greece and put money, invest money into Greece,
Speaker 1: like in real estate, in ports, all sorts of things,
Speaker 1: and tourism as well, particularly tourism, and then tourism of
Speaker 1: course has picked up. Greece has become very good at
Speaker 1: advertising itself all of a sudden, I mean, even on
Speaker 1: things like Instagram. I mean, maybe the Instagram's feeding me,
Speaker 1: but I look at one or two things and the
Speaker 1: next thing, and I've got ten things popping up on
Speaker 1: my feed, and all of it makes me think, God,
Speaker 1: I wish I was there now, you know, like everyone swimming,
Speaker 1: everybody's dancing and enjoying themselves, you know, like eating whatever.
Speaker 1: And then they show you these beautiful photographs of you know,
Speaker 1: places and the various greg islands, or if you get
Speaker 1: a Thessaloniki, you know, like what it looks like, you know,
Speaker 1: to walk around the streets. All of a sudden, Greece
Speaker 1: is advertising itself and other people are advertising for you too,
Speaker 1: when they're tourists, you know, putting stuff on and famous
Speaker 1: American tourists, especially putting stuff on Instagram. Has Do you
Speaker 1: think that this has been a strategy that has been
Speaker 1: purposely sought after, or as has just been a confluence
Speaker 1: of events that have resulted in Greece becoming ever so
Speaker 1: popular and a great place to invest now in certain projects.
Speaker 2: At least, I think it's a combination of factors. It's
Speaker 2: both at the same time. The GFC was dramatic for
Speaker 2: Luntry because it reduced the country's GDP by one fourth,
Speaker 2: which is the largest drope in peacetime ever recorded, we
Speaker 2: lost about twenty five percent I think at least twenty
Speaker 2: five percent of our GDP. At the same time, some
Speaker 2: important reforms were implemented at the time and investing in
Speaker 2: Greece became more favorable and the business climate improved gradually.
Speaker 2: So this started. This is not just a new phenomenon.
Speaker 2: It's gradual over the past let's say ten years. And
Speaker 2: there is I think a strategy by the government to
Speaker 2: promote Greek tourism and Greece as a destination which is multifaceted.
Speaker 2: It can provide different services gastronomical as well. There's Athens
Speaker 2: has become a new hub for restaurants, for Greek cuisine
Speaker 2: or even a more boem style of tourists. It's not
Speaker 2: of tourism. It's not just targeted towards the tourists that
Speaker 2: we had in the nineteen eighties. Yes, it's more multi
Speaker 2: dimensional cultural tourism tourism. There is there is an effort
Speaker 2: to differentiate the product when it comes to tourism. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But because when I go to Athens now I find
Speaker 1: it as a culturally.
Speaker 2: Different yeah, and very vibrant yeah, and a lot of energy, yes,
Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of things going on.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's not just you get in a monaster racket
Speaker 1: and go to exactly. You know, it's not just this, it's.
Speaker 2: Not just a souvenir, and it's not just a veteran
Speaker 2: all of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah what I used to call it. But there's a
Speaker 1: lot of things now you're still going on those other
Speaker 1: things you can still get.
Speaker 2: Yes, but other things are going on as.
Speaker 1: Well, lots of activity. And I find the energy of
Speaker 1: the place, particularly Athens, it hasn't for me. It hasn't
Speaker 1: bled down into places like the PLoP on Us or
Speaker 1: like it hasn't led down to from where you're from.
Speaker 1: Kalamata hasn't really changed that much. It's developing, it's going
Speaker 1: to air, but it's not that much. It's still colormade
Speaker 1: as it was. I mean, and you can like where
Speaker 1: my father comes from. Nothing's really changed. But there's only
Speaker 1: like a couple of hundred people live in my dad's
Speaker 1: village now. It's just some older women and some of
Speaker 1: old men, but mostly the young people don't live there anymore,
Speaker 1: especially the summer them not. But they will go like you,
Speaker 1: they'll go to a university somewhere and then they get
Speaker 1: to become an engineer in Germany or something. They go
Speaker 1: somewhere else for their job. Although I would hope that
Speaker 1: Greece is looking as some way to attract them back.
Speaker 2: The government has implemented measures, especially when it comes to
Speaker 2: taxation incentives, giving incentives to this brain drain to come back,
Speaker 2: because during the crisis, thousands of Greeks left, white collared Greeks,
Speaker 2: educated Greeks who went to mostly Europe, but even beyond doctors,
Speaker 2: lawyers and businessmen. And now we're trying to attract them
Speaker 2: to come back. And it is and we are succeeding
Speaker 2: to a certain extent.
Speaker 1: As long as you got projects for them, you have
Speaker 1: to have and incentives for them to return and incentives. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you are educated as a historian and political science and
Speaker 1: political scientist, but if I could just look at history
Speaker 1: historian side of it. When you did your education, was
Speaker 1: it around Greece's place in history?
Speaker 2: No, it was most mostly European.
Speaker 1: History, European history in general.
Speaker 2: In the UK, there was no separate course for Greek history.
Speaker 2: There was a course that touched upon Greek political history.
Speaker 2: It was called Transitions to Democracy in Southeastern Europe because
Speaker 2: at the time the three models were Spain, Greece, Portugal.
Speaker 2: In Spain the way they transitioned from dictatorship to democracy
Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies, so there was a it was
Speaker 2: trendy to analyze cases in a comparative way, so it
Speaker 2: was called comparative politics in Southeastern Europe and transitions to democracy.
Speaker 2: That's where I touched upon Greek history. But in general
Speaker 2: there was not a separate course for Greek history. What
Speaker 2: about on my own, I read a lot.
Speaker 1: I was that I was going to ask you, So
Speaker 1: the importance of Greek history in Greek culture, where does
Speaker 1: that seat?
Speaker 2: It's fundamental, as is the language. And this is an
Speaker 2: issue we can touch upon later if you want, about
Speaker 2: the need for Greek Australians to do more in my view,
Speaker 2: to maintain the language amongst So I like to talk
Speaker 2: about that amongst second and third generation Greeks because I
Speaker 2: don't want to want to be alarmist, but we are
Speaker 2: gradually losing the language here. Greek history is very important
Speaker 2: because it creates a self awareness amongst the community. And
Speaker 2: to see why. For example, if you don't if you
Speaker 2: don't know, if you're a Greek history, you won't understand
Speaker 2: why your grandparents came here, because they didn't come here
Speaker 2: by choice. Yes, there are three main waves of Greek
Speaker 2: migration to Australia. The first is in the nineteenth century
Speaker 2: from the Greek Revolution. Actually the first you probably know
Speaker 2: this story, the first seven Greek sailors who came here
Speaker 2: by force because they were arrested in Malta. And then
Speaker 2: we had the Kazis, the Kutherians and from Ithaca. Those
Speaker 2: were the three main places of Greek migration up until
Speaker 2: nineteen twenty. After nineteen twenty two we have a new
Speaker 2: wave because of the Asia Minor disaster, and then we've
Speaker 2: got the largest wave after the Greek after the Second
Speaker 2: World War. And if you do not know why, what
Speaker 2: were the historical trends that pushed these people to make
Speaker 2: this journey, you won't really understand where they're coming from.
Speaker 2: So it's important to have at least a basic self
Speaker 2: awareness and knowledge of Greek history.
Speaker 1: And where can someone find that out? Do you guys
Speaker 1: put that up on the website or.
Speaker 2: We do a lot. We have many functions, not just
Speaker 2: us the Consulate, but the Greek community and through the archdiocese.
Speaker 2: There is an effort to promote Greek history. For example,
Speaker 2: in my first year here, we organized events to commemorate
Speaker 2: the story of the Greek Jews, which is not very
Speaker 2: very very well known in Australia, but even a few
Speaker 2: decades ago was not very well known in Greece either.
Speaker 2: We commemorated early years of the extermination of the Greek Jews,
Speaker 2: of the tragic events of nineteen forty three when they
Speaker 2: were all sent almost all of them were sent to Auschwitz.
Speaker 2: Then we've done functions about the Anzac story, which is
Speaker 2: very important Battle of Crete. Even sometimes we've gone back
Speaker 2: to ancient history and the similarities between between Greek mythology
Speaker 2: and indigenous dreamings, which you would not expect, but there are.
Speaker 2: There are some well similarities. You can find some common trends.
Speaker 2: So it is a very important part of my job
Speaker 2: to promote this, I think, and a lot has to
Speaker 2: be done in that field, because we're not just about
Speaker 2: and I don't want to diminish the importance of Greek
Speaker 2: parades and dances and suvlaiki, but we're much more than that.
Speaker 2: We're not just that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because my good friend Nick Pappus, when
Speaker 1: we were both on the board of the Powerhouse Museum.
Speaker 1: He was a chairman of trust. We bought out the
Speaker 1: Banaki two thousand and four, I think, yeah, yeah, we
Speaker 1: bought the exhibition out from the Banaki Museum in Athens,
Speaker 1: which is a very good place, a good place to
Speaker 1: go visit. Looks is quite beautiful. But they bought some
Speaker 1: of the treasures, not everything. Yes, and they displayed it
Speaker 1: here and I don't think. I'm not sure if it
Speaker 1: went to Melbourne, but it may have and it was
Speaker 1: quite one of or to see this stuff and for
Speaker 1: Greek Australians to go and have a look, because a
Speaker 1: lot of them, if they go to Greece Athens, they
Speaker 1: don't ever go to these sorts of places, these museums.
Speaker 1: They mostly spend their time at the plaka or on
Speaker 1: an island. Because you know, one of the things is important.
Speaker 1: I don't for my point of anyway is Greece is
Speaker 1: not just about going in there for parties. It's the
Speaker 1: history and the culture. Then the culture is very very important,
Speaker 1: and it's very difficult for somebody to go and experience
Speaker 1: it if they don't have a friend there or a
Speaker 1: family there, or if they at least haven't read about
Speaker 1: it before they go or haven't even been made aware
Speaker 1: of it, because if they're not aware of it, they
Speaker 1: don't know what to do. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: good thing for the Consul General to be doing in
Speaker 1: Australia across the country, not just in your southwast but everywhere.
Speaker 1: This education process really important. What are you guys doing
Speaker 1: in relation to that? So where do you feel as
Speaker 1: though your role fits into that?
Speaker 2: In promoting culture and history. Together with associations and the
Speaker 2: Greek community in general, we organize lectures and functions. To
Speaker 2: be honest, sometimes it is a challenge to attract many
Speaker 2: people at these functions. Yet I think there is a
Speaker 2: very strong didactic objective of what you said before, in
Speaker 2: other words, to educate and we learned things from these lectures.
Speaker 2: Last year we had This year actually we commemorated the
Speaker 2: two hundredth the anniversary of the of the death of
Speaker 2: Lord Byron and Massolonghi, and so we had a lecture.
Speaker 2: We organized a lecture together with the Modern Greek Department
Speaker 2: at the University of Sydney to tell the story of
Speaker 2: Lord Byron with Professor car Alice. A lot is taking
Speaker 2: place not just through the Consulate, through other act. Perhaps
Speaker 2: sometimes we're not. We must promote, we must make it
Speaker 2: more public.
Speaker 3: That is always a challenge for us, because for me,
Speaker 3: I'd love to see much more of this and this
Speaker 3: and then all this sort of brings us into the
Speaker 3: loss of Greek language in Australia.
Speaker 1: And I'll give you a good example example, a good
Speaker 1: example of how it happens. Say, if you look in
Speaker 1: my family, my father married an Irish woman in Australia.
Speaker 1: But my father and his brothers and my yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: who I lived with, she couldn't speak one word of
Speaker 1: English I had. When I was at university, I lived with
Speaker 1: my grandmother and so I had to learned to speak Greek.
Speaker 1: So because otherwise I can't communicate. But what's interesting is
Speaker 1: they brought from Greece their village Greek from nineteen forty eight,
Speaker 1: and no one really went back for maybe fifty years.
Speaker 1: The Greek they spoke here was the same Greek they
Speaker 1: spoke in the village in nineteen forty eight. In fact,
Speaker 1: and my father worked in Australian business, so he didn't
Speaker 1: speak to anyone else Greek except for his family. So
Speaker 1: right up until my father's death, actually this year, his
Speaker 1: Greek he and his brothers could speak no problem. But
Speaker 1: he and I went back to Athens and like he
Speaker 1: had difficulty, like speaking in a modern Greek way for
Speaker 1: more formal he can't speak. He couldn't really understand things.
Speaker 1: There was words being introduced to him by by the
Speaker 1: way young Bulgarian women who speak better Greek than he
Speaker 1: does in the cafe we were going to, and my
Speaker 1: dad used to get a bit embarrassed, so we sort
Speaker 1: of spoke of really Greek. Now my father's passed away.
Speaker 1: The only time I speak any Greek is if I
Speaker 1: go to my dad's house. I wish I used to
Speaker 1: go every Saturday, and I would we would practice you
Speaker 1: know who say that you said the wrong way the
Speaker 1: roight We know this, you know, like you know, like
Speaker 1: stupid litheos like you know, but like if this silly
Speaker 1: word like alithio a lithios ilithios same sound the same,
Speaker 1: but they're two completely different words one stupid one's truth
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, you know, like, and my father would
Speaker 1: always be picking me up. Now my father's passed away,
Speaker 1: I think to myself, how am I going to continue
Speaker 1: on with this? Because I feel a bit of an
Speaker 1: obligation to my own family, because I have four sons
Speaker 1: three grandsons to at least carry something forward from my
Speaker 1: dad's side of the family that has some relevance to
Speaker 1: them culturally and also, you know, perhaps even genetically. I
Speaker 1: think it's probably a good way of putting it, but
Speaker 1: I find it frustratingly difficult to do that. I mean, sure,
Speaker 1: I look at all the apps, but like you know,
Speaker 1: they're complicated and you've got to spend a lot of time.
Speaker 1: There's no place to really speak Greek like properly for
Speaker 1: me where someone will have the patience to say something
Speaker 1: to me. So Mark, that's wrong. You know, you pronounce
Speaker 1: it incorrectly or you've got the grammar wrong. I have
Speaker 1: some friends who are Greek, so I do speak to
Speaker 1: them when I have an occasion, but it's just like
Speaker 1: one or two sentences. Because we have Australian friends stay
Speaker 1: in front of us, otherwise it can be rude. So
Speaker 1: we don't know. We don't do that. So so what
Speaker 1: do you think could be done in this regard For
Speaker 1: the younger generation, the main challenge is not so much
Speaker 1: supply of Greek language, of learning the Greek language.
Speaker 2: Rather than demand. Really, and we have options if we
Speaker 2: want to learn Greek. In Australia, there are three full
Speaker 2: Greek Orthodox schools where Greek is taught. The Greek community
Speaker 2: of New South Wales also has Saturday and afternoon schools.
Speaker 2: There are private many parishes have Greek lessons provide Greek lessons,
Speaker 2: and there are also options in the public schools where
Speaker 2: there are many Greeks living residing, for example in Eirlwood.
Speaker 2: The Australian public system provides for the teaching of Greek.
Speaker 2: The main issues demand and what do I mean by that?
Speaker 2: Greek Australians, especially second and third generation do not see
Speaker 2: the purpose in what sense. We are all were geared
Speaker 2: towards succeeding in life and doing well and excel in
Speaker 2: our professional domains. You don't need Greek for that. Yes,
Speaker 2: so the question I get from younger Greek Australian what
Speaker 2: is in it for me to learn the language? What
Speaker 2: will I gain by learning Greek? And they live in
Speaker 2: a country which is in which English is spoken. English
Speaker 2: is a steamroller. You don't need another language to do
Speaker 2: well in Australia. Unlike us. When we grew up, our
Speaker 2: parents in Greece used to tell us that if we
Speaker 2: don't learn any other foreign language, we will be failures
Speaker 2: in life. You know, that was really instilled into our
Speaker 2: minds that we have to learn a foreign language here.
Speaker 2: It's not part of the culture. There's no need to learn.
Speaker 2: You're bit geographically remote from the rest of the world.
Speaker 2: You can do perfectly fine with just English. And the
Speaker 2: challenges to convince a young Greek Australian to learn the language.
Speaker 2: And one of the arguments I use is that if
Speaker 2: you want the Greek passport, for example, although it's not
Speaker 2: a precondition, there are certain categories of pathways to Greek
Speaker 2: citizenship which require you to speak the language if you
Speaker 2: want to go through naturalization for example. Another argument is
Speaker 2: that if you want to fit in when you go
Speaker 2: back to Greece, and apparently most Greek Australians want to
Speaker 2: go back to Greece, you have to be able to
Speaker 2: at least order koffures of life. Yet Greek taverna.
Speaker 1: Right, especially outside of Athens.
Speaker 2: Outside of Athens, yeah, yes, because in Athens most people
Speaker 2: do speak English, but it's not always easy to convince
Speaker 2: Greek Australians to speak the language. And because you refer
Speaker 2: to your family, I will tell you what I see
Speaker 2: in many of the Greek restaurants, and with my colleagues
Speaker 2: we have made the same observation. You see at a
Speaker 2: family feast in a Greek restaurant, the grandparents sitting on
Speaker 2: the one side, and they are the ones that are
Speaker 2: right from Greece decades ago. They speak to their children,
Speaker 2: so to your generation in Greek. The children respond to
Speaker 2: them in English, and then the next generation, which is
Speaker 2: sitting on the other side of the table, speaks just English.
Speaker 2: So you see how in two generations the language gradually disappears. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and this is something that both the Greek state and
Speaker 2: the Greek Australian community have to do, have to have
Speaker 2: to address, and there is from the point of view
Speaker 2: of the Greek government, there is an effort to promote
Speaker 2: the Greek language through visits to Greece or in the
Speaker 2: New Strategy for Greeks Abroad for twenty twenty four twenty
Speaker 2: twenty seven, the Greek language, Greek language learning is one
Speaker 2: of the key objectives. But both of us these efforts
Speaker 2: have to be joined for this to succeed. One could argue,
Speaker 2: you could be a devil's advocate, so what does it matter?
Speaker 2: Does it matter if Greek Australians speak Greek or not?
Speaker 2: Are we moving towards a model which would be more
Speaker 2: similar to the American model where Greek migrants arrived earlier. Thus,
Speaker 2: the Greek language has not disappeared, but it's spoken less
Speaker 2: than here. Does it really matter? What will our identity be?
Speaker 2: We're at the crossroads, I think, because the generation that
Speaker 2: came here is biologically going out of the picture. So
Speaker 2: we have to see how we see ourselves in the future.
Speaker 2: Make a projection. How do I want Greek Australian identity
Speaker 2: to look like in twenty thirty years? Does it matter?
Speaker 2: And that's a question that the Greek community here must
Speaker 2: address to itself. Does it matter or will my greekness,
Speaker 2: my Greek identity be defined by other characteristics my faith,
Speaker 2: which is very resilient, it's incredibly resilient, music, Greek dancing,
Speaker 2: Greek food and visits to Greece and a sense of
Speaker 2: affinity towards Greece.
Speaker 1: That's very interesting. And because I think all those other
Speaker 1: ones are easier. Yeah, I mean, because learning is bring
Speaker 1: much less effort to eat than to Greeks. Because the Greek,
Speaker 1: you know, it's everything's different about it. I mean, the
Speaker 1: sounds are different about it. That let the writing is
Speaker 1: different about it. It's not like learning say French, where
Speaker 1: you at least the words look the same. It's very
Speaker 1: very different. It's sort of nearly like learning Chinese. For
Speaker 1: some people, you know, they would look at it, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, like what is that? And it is. It
Speaker 1: is a fairly strict language in that it's there's not
Speaker 1: a lot of give or leeway in it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know, because like you've got to pronounce words correctly,
Speaker 1: and if you don't pronounce them correctly, you could be
Speaker 1: saying another word could have a different meaning. It's and
Speaker 1: just the conjugation of the language, the way it's written
Speaker 1: is different as sort of the way we would speak
Speaker 1: in English. So it's quite as it's quite challenging and
Speaker 1: you and because the way I look at it, though importantly,
Speaker 1: I think it's important perhaps as an older person I'm
Speaker 1: talking about this, but I think it's a very good
Speaker 1: cognitive exercise. You know, it's a good challenge to you
Speaker 1: cognitively to test yourself. And if you're going to pick
Speaker 1: something at Langue which to learn to keep your cognition
Speaker 1: sharp as you get older, then why not pick the
Speaker 1: language that's closest.
Speaker 2: To you exactly.
Speaker 1: That's I mean, that doesn't apply to a young person,
Speaker 1: I get it. But if you're someone who.
Speaker 2: Does, apply to him as well to our children, because
Speaker 2: apparently scientifically has been proven that learning a foreign language
Speaker 2: at a young age improves your cognitive ability and it
Speaker 2: will probably make you a better student at school. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 2: so I think even there, that's another argument we use
Speaker 2: when we try to convince people to learn a foreign language,
Speaker 2: is it is an investment for the future.
Speaker 1: But if you're a parent saying that, then you better
Speaker 1: learn it.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: First, you can't say to your kid, you're going to
Speaker 1: learn this language and you have to speak Greek at
Speaker 1: your children at home. Yeah, and you have to keep
Speaker 1: trying it out on them, And so it's it's sort
Speaker 1: of thely comes a double edged sword in that you've
Speaker 1: got to convince parents first that this is good for
Speaker 1: you to learn it or to maintain the language for you,
Speaker 1: just even if it's not for cultural reasons, just from
Speaker 1: a cognitive point of view, it's important for you to
Speaker 1: continue on with this. And that's the way I look
Speaker 1: at it anyway. So cognitively it's important for me, and
Speaker 1: therefore I'm if I'm equipped to be able to speak,
Speaker 1: and I'm much more able to talk to my grandsons.
Speaker 1: They look at me like that, I don't know what, pop,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? They just look at me
Speaker 1: like blank. But it doesn't matter. I still speak to
Speaker 1: them just a little bit. Like last weekend on Father's Day,
Speaker 1: my grandkid, my sons and grandsons came up and I'm
Speaker 1: speaking to my grandsons like the civial things, like I said,
Speaker 1: like just little kids lead one two years old, just
Speaker 1: getting too used to the sound. But I know I
Speaker 1: can't expect them to my sons, to take them to
Speaker 1: Greek lessons, which I took my sons to. By the way,
Speaker 1: I got the you said it earlier. I got the
Speaker 1: Greek teacher from rose Bay. I think it was a
Speaker 1: king Copplo Kambala, one of those mister Angelo, Basil Angelo.
Speaker 1: He used to come to my house and take my
Speaker 1: boys with the books in school books. It was actually hilarious,
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, watching my four sons sitting
Speaker 1: there two nights a week learning with learning Greek. Because
Speaker 1: they were like from teenager down through to maybe eleven
Speaker 1: years old sitting there with like five year old book
Speaker 1: school book like the Cat and the Apple blah blah
Speaker 1: bla blah, you know, like this, And it was hilarious
Speaker 1: to me to watch it, but it was very It
Speaker 1: was a good exercise for them because I found that
Speaker 1: it actually gave them something that bound them together. And
Speaker 1: they still have a little bit of a joke about
Speaker 1: it with me. And they remember the old man who
Speaker 1: used to come. He was the nicest old man of
Speaker 1: all time, Like he was such a good person. It
Speaker 1: was a lovely person. So I think the exercise maybe
Speaker 1: is a bit of romance there for me. But I
Speaker 1: think the exercise is a good exercise and it's great
Speaker 1: that you guys are recognizing it at a state level.
Speaker 1: I really do think it's important. I want to ask
Speaker 1: you one final thing. The Delphie Forum is coming up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: could you explain with the Delphie Forum Normally it's in Delphie,
Speaker 1: But what is the Delphie Forum and why is that important?
Speaker 2: It is? From what I know, it is a private initiative, ye,
Speaker 2: and its main purpose is to discuss issues of entrepreneurship,
Speaker 2: business economy, and it's a more of a policy forum,
Speaker 2: a place where people exchange views and prominent people who
Speaker 2: have excelled in their field of work exchange views on policy, energy,
Speaker 2: a bit of foreign policy as well, and it has
Speaker 2: become gradually over the years, very successful and it attracts,
Speaker 2: if I may use the term, big names from the
Speaker 2: international field. These are ways again to promote also economic
Speaker 2: diplomacy and promote Greece abroad. So it's highly commendable.
Speaker 1: And it's it's quite interesting that Greece, but through private
Speaker 1: through private organizations, have actually taken upon themselves to whole
Speaker 1: one of these forums like it's it's to me, it's
Speaker 1: a big deal, and they've been very successful when they've
Speaker 1: been held in Delpha, I know.
Speaker 2: But for.
Speaker 1: It to be brought here to Australia, that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: And given that such a large number of Australians have
Speaker 1: Greek descendants, Greek descendants are Greek descendants, I mean, it
Speaker 1: makes sense to hold it here. And I really think
Speaker 1: that that's that sort of thing, is a sort of
Speaker 1: type of event that gets people their blood to get
Speaker 1: warmer towards maybe perhaps being more interested in Greek culture,
Speaker 1: but perhaps becoming more interested in the Greek language. It's
Speaker 1: just another opportunity for like you, if you were speaking,
Speaker 1: to talk to these things and sort of just make
Speaker 1: sure you know, we start to think more about our
Speaker 1: background and where we come from.
Speaker 2: It also shows the importance of finding new elements which
Speaker 2: will unite the Greek community in the sense that the
Speaker 2: organizational structure of the Greek community is changing. As I
Speaker 2: said earlier, when the Greek migrants arrived, the main unifying
Speaker 2: factor was the village or the town where they came from.
Speaker 2: Now it's probably vocation. So if you've got Greek business
Speaker 2: leaders organizing themselves well and promoting something like that through
Speaker 2: the Delphi Forum, because from what I know some key
Speaker 2: Greek business leaders, Greek Australian business leaders are behind this initiative,
Speaker 2: this shows that this probably shows what the future can
Speaker 2: look like when it comes to the organization of the
Speaker 2: Greek community. Again, this is also another objective of the
Speaker 2: Greek National Strategy for twenty four to twenty seven, to
Speaker 2: see how the Greek communities abroad can organize themselves on
Speaker 2: the basis of vacation rather than than paro than dissent,
Speaker 2: in the sense that Greek doctors to organize themselves well.
Speaker 2: Greek lawyers Greek businessmen.
Speaker 1: As opposed to that society exactly.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and there are initiatives taking place here and they're ongoing.
Speaker 2: Paul Nicolau tries to to unify you know, Greek Greek
Speaker 2: business leaders from the business, Yes, from business Sydney and
Speaker 2: yeah correct, yeah, yes, he's He's done a few functions
Speaker 2: where I've seen that Greek business leaders meet and they
Speaker 2: feel an affinity towards each other which is based on
Speaker 2: their common professional course or path rather than their descent,
Speaker 2: their village or their place. This is the future, I
Speaker 2: think for the younger generations of Greek Australians.
Speaker 1: It's a more modern way of looking at things. So,
Speaker 1: in other words, the initiative that you're talking about twenty
Speaker 1: four to twenty seven is sort of a modernized version
Speaker 1: of keeping the community aware of their let's call it heritage,
Speaker 1: but not based on you know, I may be some disrespect,
Speaker 1: but on federalalves like the old school. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: an importer. I bring federalves into Australia from Greek. It's
Speaker 1: more about I'm a doctor, I'm a lawyer, I'm an engineer,
Speaker 1: or I'm a hard working business owner. I'm an entrepreneur
Speaker 1: et cetera, which is like the Delphine forums. That's what
Speaker 1: that's about. It's about recognizing modern connections that relate back to.
Speaker 2: Or at least combining the two, because there are still
Speaker 2: many Greek Australians and Greek Americans who who look back
Speaker 2: at their ancestry and they're very proud of the of
Speaker 2: the region. But at least we should combine it with
Speaker 2: something new as well and come up with with with
Speaker 2: innovative approaches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, innovative, I think that's the right word in it
Speaker 1: if it should give you a modern outcome which is
Speaker 1: really good, like because you're right, I still got friends
Speaker 1: who still talk about And by the way, this is
Speaker 1: pretty important issue, the importance of high quality olive oil
Speaker 1: in terms of our health and in places in Greece
Speaker 1: where it may come from a thousand year old wild
Speaker 1: olive trees, and there's young people who go back to
Speaker 1: Greece and do deals with farmers there who have these
Speaker 1: trees in their in their small fields in Callum which
Speaker 1: is outside of Kalamarta especially but Lake Kalamuter and the
Speaker 1: importance of actually having these organic, high quality olive oils
Speaker 1: in our diet, like literally having a spoontrail that with
Speaker 1: some lemon juice every day. But this is a new thing,
Speaker 1: and these individual entrepreneurs actually come to me with business
Speaker 1: propositions and they go back to they live in Australia,
Speaker 1: They go back to Greece, spend two three months the
Speaker 1: finding places where they can harvest this stuff from and
Speaker 1: they import it back to Australia and some of them
Speaker 1: are now importing it to other countries as well. So
Speaker 1: that's sort of like a modern version of the older generation,
Speaker 1: perhaps the generation before we used to import olive oil
Speaker 1: into Australia and fetter, when most Austrainers have heard of
Speaker 1: feta or olive oil, and all of a sudden, for example,
Speaker 1: high quality feta is become a big deal in Australia
Speaker 1: and it's from a dietary point of view because it
Speaker 1: contains a fat in there or an a mino a
Speaker 1: so called sea fifteen C one to five, which is
Speaker 1: one of the things that we lack in our diets
Speaker 1: in Western countries because of the push against things like
Speaker 1: butter and cheeses because of cholesterol, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: now there's one element that comes out of sheep sheep's
Speaker 1: milk fetter as opposed to goat's milk. The sheep's milk fetter.
Speaker 1: There's an element of that particular cheese, which is why
Speaker 1: the people in Nikorea are living in what they call
Speaker 1: the Blue Zone.
Speaker 2: In the Blue Zone, it's one of the four Blue Zones.
Speaker 1: Because there's something in their cheese. And I know a
Speaker 1: lot of younger people who are starting to discover this stuff.
Speaker 1: But they're of Greek heritage, but they're born here. They're
Speaker 1: probably second generation, but they're going back to Greece and
Speaker 1: bringing their stuff back to Australia now and they're getting
Speaker 1: really excited about because some of these people they reach
Speaker 1: out to me on the various mediums that we all
Speaker 1: operate in any last partying things you would like to say,
Speaker 1: you know in your role that you would like to
Speaker 1: let my audience know about, because we have a lot
Speaker 1: of great to listen to us.
Speaker 2: I've been here two years and something that I hadn't
Speaker 2: realized before coming here is the importance of hard work,
Speaker 2: the importance of the toil and the struggle that the
Speaker 2: first generator, the Greek migrants who came here presented so
Speaker 2: that they are so that their children and grandchildren are
Speaker 2: so successful today. This drive to succeed, to educate their
Speaker 2: children is indeed very impressive because they came here with nothing.
Speaker 2: As I said earlier, they did not leave Greece by choice.
Speaker 2: The country was ravaged by war civil war, and they
Speaker 2: left with one suit case. And it is incredible when
Speaker 2: you see these people they come to the Consulate for
Speaker 2: various affairs, how tough they are in a good sense
Speaker 2: that they worked so hard. You can see that in
Speaker 2: their hands sometimes as well. And they were uneducated, and
Speaker 2: in one generation or two their descendants are successful businessmen
Speaker 2: or scientists, or lawyers or teachers. It shows that Greeks
Speaker 2: have this drive to excel, to do well, and this
Speaker 2: is very impressive and it's something that perhaps in Greece
Speaker 2: we don't realize mainland Greeks the struggle that these people
Speaker 2: went through to succeed. When they tell you their stories,
Speaker 2: especially when they arrived here, Australia was not as multicultural
Speaker 2: as it is today. They had difficulties in everyday life.
Speaker 2: They didn't speak the language, society was not as tolerant
Speaker 2: as it is today. And yet with perseverance determination, they
Speaker 2: worked twelve hours a day at least, and in one
Speaker 2: generation they changed the whole course of their family's destiny.
Speaker 2: And that is indeed very impressive.
Speaker 1: You're talking about my father exactly what him and his
Speaker 1: brothers did exactly, and when someone like me sits down
Speaker 1: and observes it, it gives me a great deal of
Speaker 1: inspiration and motivation to do the same. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: whether after my generation where everybody thinks the same thing,
Speaker 1: but it's an important thing that we should discuss. We
Speaker 1: should discuss. I should discuss this with my sons, and
Speaker 1: hopefully I'll be able to discuss with my grandsons too
Speaker 1: what my father did and tell the stories that my
Speaker 1: father told. Because until my dad started telling me why
Speaker 1: he left Greece or sorry, what was happening in Greece
Speaker 1: and he left his parents took him out, of course,
Speaker 1: but what was going on in Greece, he never talked
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for most of his because trauma is part of
Speaker 2: the equation. Yeah, they don't want to discuss it.
Speaker 1: And his stories about how his brother his older brothers
Speaker 1: had to go and live in the in the mountain,
Speaker 1: go away from where the village was because they were
Speaker 1: considered rebels against the people who occupied their village. And
Speaker 1: you know, I'll just tell one final thing. My dad
Speaker 1: has gave me a photo. I have this photo, a
Speaker 1: photo of his house in rizz has a balcony and
Speaker 1: under the balcony there's a photo of my dad and
Speaker 1: at this stage five of his brothers standing there with
Speaker 1: my grandmother and under the balcony, and there's the lighters
Speaker 1: shining through the slats on the balcony, so you can
Speaker 1: see on the ground. When I went, I went to
Speaker 1: Greece with my dad and my sons, and I said,
Speaker 1: let's stand outside the house and get exactly the same
Speaker 1: photo in the same position with all my boys. I
Speaker 1: even cut their hair like crew cut, same as my dad,
Speaker 1: and all these brothers had their haircut, and I got
Speaker 1: them to stand exactly say spot. When I got the
Speaker 1: photograph developed, I looked at it and I said, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a difference. The son coming through the slats is
Speaker 1: not there. And I said, where's that balcony gone? He said,
Speaker 1: my mother. His mother saw the balcony off. And I said,
Speaker 1: why should that for? He said, because at the time
Speaker 1: the Communists used to hang young rebels from the balcony
Speaker 1: so that they wouldn't hang any more people from the
Speaker 1: balcony she sorted off. And that's the sort of thing
Speaker 1: that these people left behind. And they're the stories that
Speaker 1: we should have to tell our kids and to explain
Speaker 1: why our parents work so hard, why they had this
Speaker 1: You talked about this work ethic.
Speaker 2: And is indeed incredible, and it shows that Greeks are
Speaker 2: a model I think for newly arrived migrants and Australians
Speaker 2: Anglo Australians, if I can use the term, admit that
Speaker 2: because we were with Italians and Yugoslavs at the time
Speaker 2: before the breakdown of Yugoslavia, we were the first who
Speaker 2: arrived here and we managed I think, at least when
Speaker 2: it comes to Greeks, because I know this story better.
Speaker 2: We managed to gain and reap the benefits of both worlds,
Speaker 2: maintain our culture, our heritage, our faith, but at the
Speaker 2: same time grasp the new opportunities that this new land offered.
Speaker 2: And that's why they succeeded. They managed to, you know,
Speaker 2: to get the good, the best of.
Speaker 1: Both worlds, and largely most people were uneducated. And it's
Speaker 1: interesting that they work this stuff out out or just
Speaker 1: did everybody talk about I don't know how they worked
Speaker 1: it out, but they worked it out.
Speaker 2: Greeks have that they want their children, even if they're uneducated,
Speaker 2: they want to provide the opportunities to their children to
Speaker 2: do well. And in terms of education we are. We're
Speaker 2: social climbers as a nation, especially when we go abroad.
Speaker 2: We're not static. I abhorror racial or racial theories. I'm
Speaker 2: just saying that it's a cultural trait of Greeks. They
Speaker 2: want to excel, they want to do, they want they
Speaker 2: want their children to do very well.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, it seems to me, especially the ones to
Speaker 1: travel abroad or who live abroad.
Speaker 2: Yes, maybe because they know what poverty is and they
Speaker 2: experienced poverty, whereas my generation in Greece we grew up well,
Speaker 2: we didn't experience poverty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and nor is my generation here in Australia, which
Speaker 1: is perhaps the very novel problem that we're going to
Speaker 1: have to overcome. Well, Joannis Malikuurtis, Yes, thank you very
Speaker 1: much for coming in. It's been great to have a
Speaker 1: chat to you about all things Greek culture, but probably
Speaker 1: importantly to have having in the concert general here for
Speaker 1: New South Wales is one it's privileged, but two it's
Speaker 1: actually quite interesting to hear what you've got to say
Speaker 1: as a modern person, yourself, a well educated modern guy.
Speaker 2: Thanks very much, Thank you, Mark, and thank you, thank
Speaker 2: you for what you're doing, because not all of your
Speaker 2: shows have a Greek dimension to it, but suddenly you
Speaker 2: always promote I think, Greek culture and Greek interests here
Speaker 2: in your own way, and I congratulate and thank you
Speaker 2: for that. Thank you for having the Greek flag always
Speaker 2: in your heart.
Speaker 1: Thank you