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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe this when I read the Instagram post

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Speaker 1: on the Nursing and Midwhiffery Federation Instagram page. Officers today

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Speaker 1: from the AMMF will enter Yorktown Hospital under work, Health Safety,

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Speaker 1: Right and Entry laws after two nurses were chased by

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Speaker 1: a patient wait for this, wielding two knives in a

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Speaker 1: terrifying incident at Yorktown Hospital on the weekend. The nurses

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Speaker 1: had to barricade themselves in the nurses' station, which is

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Speaker 1: a safe zone, for up to forty five forty five

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Speaker 1: minutes before local police arrived in the meantime. Presumably this

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Speaker 1: bloke with the knives is what roaming around the hospital.

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Speaker 1: Let's find out. From the Nursing and Midwiffery Federation Associate

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Speaker 1: Professor Elizabeth de Baz Elizabeth, good morning, unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's extremely traumatic, and I think your listeners would

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Speaker 2: certainly understand that the traumer associated with this terrible event

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Speaker 2: is enduring. I believe that these people will be off

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Speaker 2: work for some time, understandably so, because the trauma is

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Speaker 2: just so significant. We have done our best efforts to

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Speaker 2: offer support to those involved. The reality is that, sadly,

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Speaker 2: hospital environments not always calm and relaxed and just service providers.

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Speaker 2: We have very very unwell people accessing those services, and

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Speaker 2: the reality is so they should. But so the problem

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Speaker 2: is that they can be extremely volatile. So we know

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Speaker 2: in this particular set of circumstances that are following our

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Speaker 2: right of entry, one of the concerns we have is

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Speaker 2: simply the infrastructure that enabled that person, that individual to

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Speaker 2: gain act access to those weapons, because there wasn't simply

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Speaker 2: swipe card access to areas that should be staff only.

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Speaker 2: So we understand that that person may have actually secured

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Speaker 2: those knives from the facility itself because there weren't the

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Speaker 2: restrictions to accessing all areas that really there are in

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Speaker 2: those metropolitan hospitals. So from our perspective, one of the

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Speaker 2: very very easiest things that can be done, and should

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Speaker 2: have already been done, let's be frank, is to put

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Speaker 2: in place the infrastructure required to make sure that areas

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Speaker 2: that should be cordoned off are cordoned off. But we

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Speaker 2: also obviously have significant concerns about the availability of police resources.

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Speaker 2: Now we make no accusation to the police. We know

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Speaker 2: they're busy, we know they've got so many things already

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Speaker 2: on their plate. But the reality is that that it

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Speaker 2: is not an appropriate environment really for someone who is

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Speaker 2: so volatile to be in a place that is minimally staffed.

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Speaker 2: There are only two nurses on duty, there is no

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Speaker 2: backup available, there are no security personnel on deck, there's

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Speaker 2: no other staff around. In fact that there's no access

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Speaker 2: even to a doctor most of the time. So we

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Speaker 2: have an environment where these people who are trying to

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Speaker 2: provide a really crucial service to the country communities are

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Speaker 2: extremely vulnerable, and it's unacceptable this person.

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Speaker 1: Once the nursers were safe in their quarters, they're a

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Speaker 1: safe zone, he's roaming around the hospital. Presumably we're other

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Speaker 1: patients at risk or staff.

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Speaker 2: Well I'm not necessarily sure it was a man necessarily,

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Speaker 2: but in any event, this person was roaming the area. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it was of extreme concern to those staff members, who

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Speaker 2: again had no capability of protecting the other people under

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Speaker 2: their charge and care. So we understand that they were

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Speaker 2: roaming the area. That was a serious and significant concern

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Speaker 2: to those staff members. But once again, they had absolutely

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Speaker 2: no way of doing anything to protect themselves or anyone else,

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Speaker 2: apart from barricading themselves in the semi sectioned off area.

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Speaker 2: So we think this all falls back to the fact

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Speaker 2: that there is a policy in place, a great policy,

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Speaker 2: a zero process or policy about violence and aggression. And

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Speaker 2: we convinced after a long time the government and the

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Speaker 2: department to accept and adopt what's called the ten point plan.

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Speaker 2: But that ten point plan has to be implemented. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you can't just say it's a wonderful plan and then

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Speaker 2: pop it on the shelf. Now I do know some

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Speaker 2: work has happened at very senior levels, again only as

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Speaker 2: a direct consequence of our urging what seems to be happening.

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Speaker 2: Not happening is permitting the staff of each and every

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Speaker 2: area to put that ten point plan on their health

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Speaker 2: safety agenda and say, how do we realistically and robustly,

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Speaker 2: or you know, in a real and genuine sense, I

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Speaker 2: should say, rather than realistic, I mean in a real

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Speaker 2: and genuine way, implement this plan. The very first component

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Speaker 2: of it is all about environment. And if you have

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Speaker 2: an environment where it's really the infrastructure hasn't been touched

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Speaker 2: for years, there are areas that are accessible by anyone

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Speaker 2: and everyone. Well, there's a first step. It's a very

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Speaker 2: simple step. Let's make sure that there is white card

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Speaker 2: access to those areas that are supposed to be only

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Speaker 2: for staff, to disable access to those objects that simply

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Speaker 2: are in a hospital.

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Speaker 1: A week or so ago, we were talking about security

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Speaker 1: guards for Mount Barkerhei Hospital. Has anything changed there and

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Speaker 1: is this another hospital that needs them?

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Speaker 2: I think that's a great question. Look, we don't believe

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Speaker 2: that there's been any shift in Mount Barker much to

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Speaker 2: our significant, serious concern. We will be vigorously pursuing that.

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Speaker 2: We have spoken to members again about at a seeking

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Speaker 2: direct engagement from the board itself to actually say, look,

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Speaker 2: you know, you need to get real about this. You

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Speaker 2: need to actually come and look for yourself, see if yourself,

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Speaker 2: feel what it's like, and understand our perspective from our perspective.

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Speaker 2: So that's a course of action we're pursuing in this

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Speaker 2: particular situation. It's what we do want to do is

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Speaker 2: have a closer look at that ten point plan. We've

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Speaker 2: always said that protection and safety at work is multifaceted.

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Speaker 2: It may include a requirement for safety personnel or at

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Speaker 2: absolute minimum, considering how we could what type of clients

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Speaker 2: might be suitable for that facility and what times of

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Speaker 2: day people will be accepted that facility suffering from certain conditions.

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Speaker 2: So those are very serious things that need to be

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Speaker 2: considered because obviously they have direct consequences on the community

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Speaker 2: and their access and availability to healthcare services.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is just another drama to add to the list. Look,

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Speaker 1: you've been in this role for I reckon at least

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Speaker 1: ten years now, Elizabeth. When we used to talk to you,

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Speaker 1: it was about paying conditions. Things have changed in our hospitals.

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Speaker 1: Haven't known a whole range of fronts that you're addressing now.

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Speaker 1: You probably thought I'd never be talking about things like this.

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Speaker 2: You would think that you wouldn't think that this would

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Speaker 2: be something controversial, And I do think that that's really

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Speaker 2: disappointing because it should absolutely be a right, a legal

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Speaker 2: or moral and an ethical right to be safe at

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Speaker 2: work and for those people accessing those facilities to be

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Speaker 2: safe as well. I really would think the ideal would

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Speaker 2: be to look at the root cause of why people

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Speaker 2: are behaving in this manner. I know, again that's multifacetus.

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Speaker 2: Some of it could be prevented, some of it perhaps not.

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Speaker 2: But I do think if we go back to environment

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Speaker 2: and environmental design, that is one core thing that can

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Speaker 2: and should be addressed. It's the same type of issue

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Speaker 2: that we've been talking about even at the Raw Adelaide

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Speaker 2: Hospital in their emergency department, and how inappropriate it is

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Speaker 2: for those mental health patients to be receiving care in

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Speaker 2: that environment. It's just adding fuel to an already a

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Speaker 2: fiery environment, and it's one that shows itself up by

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Speaker 2: virtue of the number of Code blacks, violent and aggressive incidents,

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Speaker 2: and it does nothing. It does nothing. In fact, it

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Speaker 2: does the absolute opposite to all those really hard working

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Speaker 2: and dedicated nurses and midwives and other health professionals in

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Speaker 2: the system. Rather than feeling satisfied that they've been able

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Speaker 2: to do their best at work, they feel absolutely dissatisfied

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Speaker 2: and a heartbroken that they are not able to provide

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Speaker 2: the care that they can and should their patients. We

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Speaker 2: do need to have a serious look at how do

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Speaker 2: we look after people who are drug and drunk effected

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Speaker 2: and people suffering from mental health problems. They do deserve treatment,

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Speaker 2: they do deserve care, but not in an environment realistically,

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Speaker 2: where people are also coming in for their cardiac event

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Speaker 2: or their broken leg. It just doesn't. It just does

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Speaker 2: not work.

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Speaker 1: The person with the knives has been presumably when police arrived,

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Speaker 1: taken safely into custody, and I imagine matters pending from there.

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Speaker 1: Is that the outcome of what happened.

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Speaker 2: I need further information on that, but I do know

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Speaker 2: at the time, earlier in the time that that individual

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Speaker 2: was then relocated to the wallaroof and I understood at

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Speaker 2: the time that they may have even been discharged from

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Speaker 2: that facility. But again, the Wallaroo Hospital would have been

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Speaker 2: a more appropriate facility to take that individual to simply

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Speaker 2: because they do have more personnel. They now do have

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Speaker 2: security personnel again due to really terrible events that haven't

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Speaker 2: at that hospital, But at least they do have that

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Speaker 2: infrastructure that could provide appropriate care to that individual, who

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Speaker 2: we have to recognize is also suffering and also is

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Speaker 2: in want of care. But they shouldn't be placed in

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Speaker 2: an environment where they simply just have access to everything

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Speaker 2: and not adequate numbers or capability of staff to provide

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Speaker 2: the care and intervention they require.

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Speaker 1: You're very forgiving, if I may say so, in regards

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Speaker 1: to the treatment afforded to your staff by people. You're right,

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Speaker 1: they do need care, but you seem very forgiving.

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Speaker 2: Nevertheless, being a nurse myself. We certainly know what these

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Speaker 2: people suffering from their their health conditions, but the reality

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Speaker 2: is it's not good enough for our members to be

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Speaker 2: exposed to that. I certainly have had direct exposure to

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Speaker 2: those affected and the consequences to their mental health. It's

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Speaker 2: just unacceptable. I can't tell you. It is extremely distressing.

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Speaker 2: They have suffered now trauma themselves that they quite frankly

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have endured. And I think realistically, I'm not necessarily

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Speaker 2: forgiving per se. I'm extremely angered with the system itself.

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Speaker 2: We do know that there are good people working in

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Speaker 2: that system, but they need to get real about this.

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Speaker 2: They need to understand that this is absolutely an imperative,

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Speaker 2: and again I implore them to get their feet on

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Speaker 2: the ground out there, to experience what it's like for themselves,

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Speaker 2: and to ask themselves that question. If it's not good

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Speaker 2: enough for you, why is it good enough for these

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Speaker 2: really fine staff who are doing their best. I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: say this is about forgiveness. This is about just pure,

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Speaker 2: pure desperation. We are in an environment where people need

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Speaker 2: that help. We need to get them that help, and

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Speaker 2: we are committed to making sure that these changes because

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Speaker 2: it is unacceptable.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Debarns, thank you for your time.

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Speaker 2: It's a pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to you, President of the Nursing and Midwifery

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Speaker 1: Federation here in the essay, and I spoke with Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: a bit earlier this morning on the line now. Roger Kirshner,

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Speaker 1: CEO York and North Local Health Network, Roger, good morning,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on. Intolerable situation for everybody out there.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, the incident matter that took place at Yorkdown over

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Speaker 3: the weekend, it's not acceptable. It's it's exposed as staff

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Speaker 3: to a very very stressful situation. And following that, we've

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Speaker 3: certainly put a lot of support, a lot of comfort

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Speaker 3: around them to try and get through this situation that

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Speaker 3: unfortunately escalated very very quickly.

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Speaker 1: All right, now, good to know that. And they're obviously

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Speaker 1: off work, as Elizabeth confirmed as well, and so they

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Speaker 1: probably should be. Give them what they've been through. What

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Speaker 1: are you doing to change things because this can't be

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Speaker 1: allowed to continue without security there.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely not, and there was actually the areas that the

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Speaker 3: patient access was actually a lockdown area. The question there

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Speaker 3: is at the moment it's done by using pin pad

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Speaker 3: control and what we're now looking at doing is upgrading

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Speaker 3: that to dis white card, which enables staff to get

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Speaker 3: in and out in a much easier and quicker way

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Speaker 3: than what they had previously. So that's a discussion that

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Speaker 3: security party. They've actually already been been working on the

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Speaker 3: procurement there, and the issue and the slight hold up

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Speaker 3: has been getting a system to make sure that actually

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Speaker 3: interfaces in with the same systems across our other hospitals

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Speaker 3: across the network. And that's what it's already in place.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, but at the end of the day, if

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Speaker 1: somebody gets in, all you've got is a swipe card

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Speaker 1: to defend yourself with. Don't you need security guards there?

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Speaker 3: That's a that's a discussion that we'll now take back

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Speaker 3: to our security working party and back to the back

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Speaker 3: to the board. There's there's many things that we need

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Speaker 3: to take into account in consideration of that, and and Elizabeth,

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Speaker 3: they're already raged some of them about you know, the

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Speaker 3: time and the types of people that we allow access

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Speaker 3: into these smaller units that have only got two staff

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Speaker 3: there there overnight. So we really have to look at

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Speaker 3: whether or not would have security guard have actually done

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Speaker 3: anything differently in this situation. Because the staff themselves were

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Speaker 3: absolutely the amazing. They fire exactly the plans that they

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Speaker 3: should have done in that they got into the into

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Speaker 3: the safe room. So you know, they really did a

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Speaker 3: fantastic job in a very very streciful situation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but having a sec when there's two nurses on duty,

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Speaker 1: having a security guard there, if nothing else, it's comfort,

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Speaker 1: it's reassured. It's for patients in the place as well, because,

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Speaker 1: as Elizabeth said, they're in the safe room, which is good.

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Speaker 1: But then you've got patients and wards and someone's wandering

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Speaker 1: around allegedly armed with two knives. That's that's not great.

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Speaker 1: That's that's a Halloween movie for goodness sake.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, in this situation that the person didn't any

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Speaker 3: of those any of those those areas during this situation.

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Speaker 1: But they could have potentially, couldn't they.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they certainly could have. Absolutely they could have.

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Speaker 1: And so security guards again, when it comes down today,

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Speaker 1: you've got to keep people safe for goodness sake.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, that will certainly be a topic for discussion

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Speaker 3: on heading to a board meeting today, so I'm sure

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Speaker 3: that that will be on the agenda.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Debar spent some time talking about the ten point

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Speaker 1: plan agreed to an EBA discussions previously by the state government,

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Speaker 1: which includes upgrades and security personnel. Why haven't these been Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're looking after York and North, but across the board,

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Speaker 1: why and including your area, Why haven't these been implemented already?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we continue to work through that plan. We continue

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Speaker 3: to work with say health and with each of the

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Speaker 3: units in our networks. And it's a very complicated and

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Speaker 3: it will take a while for us to progress each

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Speaker 3: of those areas.

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Speaker 1: What is it, you know, just funding from the government

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Speaker 1: to say, look, here's here's a couple one hundred grand

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Speaker 1: per hospital to ensure security or on standby on premises

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Speaker 1: there to look after people overnight. Is at the very

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Speaker 1: least overnight, if not during the day as well. Is

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Speaker 1: that what it needs?

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Speaker 3: Well, certainly, certainly funding is part of it, but it's

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Speaker 3: a lot, it's a lot more complex than just just funding.

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Speaker 3: And and by early next year we will actually have

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Speaker 3: in front of the board a full, full security proposal

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Speaker 3: for each of our our facilities across the entire network.

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Speaker 3: One of the one of the difficulties that we have

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Speaker 3: is that, you know, we're working with buildings that have

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Speaker 3: been in place for a very very long time, and

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Speaker 3: it's not it's not easy modifying them and bringing them

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Speaker 3: up to be safe for the services that we want

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Speaker 3: to provide today. Okay, and sorry no, And I was

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Speaker 3: going to say, we're also seeing over the last five

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Speaker 3: to ten years a real escalation in the types and

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Speaker 3: the complexity of the people that we're seeing through our

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Speaker 3: front doors. And I think that's that's got a lot

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Speaker 3: to do with the problems that we see well recognized

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Speaker 3: across the communities in whether it be alcohol or drug related,

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Speaker 3: and certainly that that's placing a huge impact on our frontline.

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Speaker 1: Staff, all right, and probably more reason to have security

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Speaker 1: on standby.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's certainly making it more and more difficult for

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Speaker 3: staff in those those front lines, particularly the accent emergency areas.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely the forty five minute response by police. Now we

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Speaker 1: know police are there to come and help if A

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Speaker 1: there's enough of them and B they're not tied up

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Speaker 1: on other equally I imagine important duties. But are you disappointed

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Speaker 1: by that response time? That's a long time when you're

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Speaker 1: stuck in a safe room and somebody's trying to get

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Speaker 1: in with a couple of knives.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly, it certainly would be on the longer side

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Speaker 3: of things of what we've experienced in the past. And

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Speaker 3: I've actually touched space with our local chief inspector of

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Speaker 3: the network of the region and we'll actually come together

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Speaker 3: and discuss what happened there. You know, I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: what else was happening in and around that area on

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Speaker 3: Saturday nights. So certainly, Police Safehold provide a magnificent support

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Speaker 3: service to all of our hospitals across across our patch,

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Speaker 3: so we want to really continue to work with them.

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Speaker 3: We've got a great relationship with them. So yeah, I'll

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Speaker 3: touch bose with the chief inspector and we'll just we'll

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Speaker 3: work through what actually happened on that particular Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, because this, I mean, you can't think of anything

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Speaker 1: more pressing than this staff under under siege, barricaded in

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Speaker 1: safe rooms and potentially vulnerable people lying asleep in beds

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Speaker 1: at that time of the night, and someone roaming around

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Speaker 1: with a couple of knives. I mean, as I say,

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Speaker 1: that screen.

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Speaker 3: Could have could have ended up a whole lot worse

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Speaker 3: than what it was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well, Roger, thank you for your time.

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Speaker 1: In coming on. We often ask for the Minister or

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Speaker 1: essay health to come on and we get a statement.

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Speaker 1: So I appreciate you coming on and explaining that and

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Speaker 1: hopefully you come up with some constructive solutions at your

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Speaker 1: board meeting. You need to.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: Roger Kirshner, CEO York and North Local Health Network