1 00:00:05,881 --> 00:00:13,001 Speaker 1: Approche Production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am 2 00:00:13,081 --> 00:00:17,321 Speaker 1: Neil the Muscle comments and in this episode I. 3 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,601 Speaker 2: Speak with former Scotland Yard Homicide Detective Inspector Stephen Keon. 4 00:00:22,041 --> 00:00:25,121 Speaker 3: And essentially, people kill because of three reasons, and it's 5 00:00:25,161 --> 00:00:27,601 Speaker 3: the same three reasons that people choose to do anything. 6 00:00:27,601 --> 00:00:29,961 Speaker 3: And his uncle is literally just stamped him to death 7 00:00:30,681 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 3: or because he wet the bed. You can't I'm not 8 00:00:33,201 --> 00:00:35,081 Speaker 3: saying you would do anyway, but you can't shoot them. 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:36,961 Speaker 3: One of the first things you do when you're interviewing 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: a terrorist police officers. 11 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:40,521 Speaker 4: The police officers just be policing the criminals, not be 12 00:00:40,601 --> 00:00:41,401 Speaker 4: criminals themselves. 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,681 Speaker 3: The plan was to put a bomb in North Greenwich 14 00:00:43,801 --> 00:00:46,721 Speaker 3: because it's under the Thames. That would bring the river 15 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 3: down and flood the London underground system. 16 00:00:53,001 --> 00:00:54,121 Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on, Steve. 17 00:00:54,281 --> 00:00:57,801 Speaker 2: We'll start with you as a person growing up, get 18 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 2: to know you first, and then we'll get into the 19 00:00:59,321 --> 00:01:01,281 Speaker 2: nitty gritty of everything like that. 20 00:01:01,361 --> 00:01:02,681 Speaker 1: So take it away, Steve. 21 00:01:03,081 --> 00:01:06,281 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I mean I ended up in a police 22 00:01:06,361 --> 00:01:09,401 Speaker 3: but it really wasn't a route that I should have 23 00:01:09,441 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 3: gone down, if you know what I mean. I grew 24 00:01:11,041 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 3: up on a council estate in South London. My dad 25 00:01:13,881 --> 00:01:18,441 Speaker 3: was a bus driver. I went to like comprehensive school. 26 00:01:19,481 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 3: I was growing up in cancel flats and you're just 27 00:01:22,401 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 3: surrounded by people that are tending to go down different 28 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,481 Speaker 3: route than now I ended up and I did a 29 00:01:28,481 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 3: bit of that too. When you're a kid, it is difficult, 30 00:01:30,041 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: isn't it. When you're seven, eight, nine ten, everyone around 31 00:01:33,321 --> 00:01:35,521 Speaker 3: you is doing stuff, you kind of end up doing 32 00:01:35,521 --> 00:01:37,121 Speaker 3: the same kind of thing. But I always had this 33 00:01:37,961 --> 00:01:39,121 Speaker 3: I don't know if I don't know if it was 34 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,241 Speaker 3: my parentsy like the morals that they instilled in me. 35 00:01:42,801 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 3: There was always a line I wouldn't cross. There certain 36 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,321 Speaker 3: things I wouldn't do, which so some of my mates 37 00:01:48,361 --> 00:01:50,321 Speaker 3: didn't have that sort of I don't know what you 38 00:01:50,361 --> 00:01:53,881 Speaker 3: call it, moral compass, so they ended up getting knicked 39 00:01:53,961 --> 00:01:56,721 Speaker 3: and banged up and stuff like that, and but. 40 00:01:57,041 --> 00:01:58,761 Speaker 4: I kind of just always knew and it was just 41 00:01:58,801 --> 00:02:00,161 Speaker 4: not that's not that's too far from me. 42 00:02:00,161 --> 00:02:01,801 Speaker 3: I'm not going to go down that root, which is 43 00:02:01,801 --> 00:02:03,521 Speaker 3: a good good thing because I wouldn't have ended up 44 00:02:03,561 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 3: with a police So when I left school, I said, 45 00:02:08,961 --> 00:02:10,441 Speaker 3: I come from a bit of a poor background, and 46 00:02:10,521 --> 00:02:14,201 Speaker 3: I got I did accountancy in school and I thought, well, 47 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 3: this could be my route to doing something better my life. 48 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:18,121 Speaker 4: You know what I mean. 49 00:02:18,281 --> 00:02:19,921 Speaker 3: I don't want to no disrespect to my dad. I 50 00:02:19,921 --> 00:02:21,081 Speaker 3: don't want to be a bus driver. I want I 51 00:02:21,081 --> 00:02:23,921 Speaker 3: want to do something a bit better. So I went 52 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 3: down the route of accountancy and when I left school 53 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 3: at eighteen, I got some A levels went to do that. 54 00:02:30,761 --> 00:02:33,761 Speaker 4: Oh noil, it was so boring. It was still most 55 00:02:33,921 --> 00:02:35,881 Speaker 4: whole thing, honestly. 56 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:41,361 Speaker 3: And I our offices backed onto the Old Bailey, the 57 00:02:41,441 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 3: biggest court in England essentially, and I used to see 58 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,321 Speaker 3: the comings and goings and there'd be terrorist prisoners getting 59 00:02:47,321 --> 00:02:50,641 Speaker 3: brought in and they would always have an escorl, blue lights, sirens, 60 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,401 Speaker 3: armed police and it looks so exciting. And there's me 61 00:02:54,441 --> 00:02:57,761 Speaker 3: trying to work out why two columns of figures. 62 00:02:57,361 --> 00:02:59,841 Speaker 4: Don't add up. There's got to be water life than this. 63 00:02:59,921 --> 00:03:00,761 Speaker 4: It's not the money. 64 00:03:01,201 --> 00:03:03,201 Speaker 3: I've got to do something a bit more exciting. So 65 00:03:03,481 --> 00:03:05,801 Speaker 3: I ended up applying for the police. As I say, like, 66 00:03:06,041 --> 00:03:08,441 Speaker 3: nobody in my family was in the police. There was 67 00:03:08,481 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 3: just my cousins that are in and out of prison. 68 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,121 Speaker 1: What did you What did your mates think of that? 69 00:03:12,121 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: When you did that. 70 00:03:14,361 --> 00:03:15,481 Speaker 4: See my good mates? 71 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,601 Speaker 3: You know, you know you surround yourself my good mates. 72 00:03:18,641 --> 00:03:20,601 Speaker 3: I'm still with friends now, I've still got they're still 73 00:03:20,601 --> 00:03:22,921 Speaker 3: my mates now. When I got posted, I grew up 74 00:03:23,001 --> 00:03:25,681 Speaker 3: in Greenwich and Southeast London and my first nick was 75 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 3: Greenwich and that was a bit testing. So you come 76 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,921 Speaker 3: from a Council of State, you go to like a 77 00:03:30,921 --> 00:03:34,081 Speaker 3: pretty of a dodgy comprehensive you're twenty years old. 78 00:03:34,161 --> 00:03:35,761 Speaker 4: I literally was just out of school. 79 00:03:35,961 --> 00:03:38,041 Speaker 3: I'm nicking people when I went to school with and 80 00:03:38,321 --> 00:03:39,921 Speaker 3: I've got to be honestly, I did get a bit 81 00:03:39,961 --> 00:03:40,441 Speaker 3: of abuse. 82 00:03:40,601 --> 00:03:41,961 Speaker 4: I did get a bit of abuse. 83 00:03:43,641 --> 00:03:44,921 Speaker 1: Was that hard when you have to nick people that 84 00:03:44,961 --> 00:03:45,521 Speaker 1: you knew. 85 00:03:46,161 --> 00:03:48,681 Speaker 3: No, because they weren't my mates, they were just people 86 00:03:48,721 --> 00:03:51,561 Speaker 3: in my year group, or people are new like from school, 87 00:03:52,161 --> 00:03:56,481 Speaker 3: so you kind of it's my job and nobody likes 88 00:03:56,481 --> 00:04:01,641 Speaker 3: to get abuse today, and but you don't get on 89 00:04:01,721 --> 00:04:04,641 Speaker 3: with it and ultimately they've done bad things. 90 00:04:04,681 --> 00:04:06,961 Speaker 4: I wasn't because I was. I don't. 91 00:04:07,161 --> 00:04:13,521 Speaker 3: They've got only fools and horses in this country. There's 92 00:04:13,521 --> 00:04:15,401 Speaker 3: a character in it called Slater, and my mates called 93 00:04:15,401 --> 00:04:20,601 Speaker 3: me Slater affectionately because like in the sitcom one of 94 00:04:20,601 --> 00:04:22,481 Speaker 3: their mates becomes a copper, but he turns into a 95 00:04:22,561 --> 00:04:25,561 Speaker 3: right bastard and he's trying to nick and that wasn't me. 96 00:04:25,761 --> 00:04:27,961 Speaker 3: I wasn't going out of my way to try nick. 97 00:04:27,961 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: People went to school, but if they they were there 98 00:04:30,241 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 3: of things like GBH, they were committed. 99 00:04:31,761 --> 00:04:33,961 Speaker 4: They were really seriously assaulting people. What am I going 100 00:04:34,001 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 4: to do? I can't turn a fly and diet. 101 00:04:36,281 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 3: So in the end, like my mates were my mates, 102 00:04:39,641 --> 00:04:41,921 Speaker 3: they were fine with it, although it did affect my 103 00:04:41,961 --> 00:04:46,361 Speaker 3: life growing up. So I was born in seventy one, 104 00:04:46,481 --> 00:04:50,361 Speaker 3: joined the police in ninety one, so it was early nineties. 105 00:04:50,481 --> 00:04:53,641 Speaker 3: Normal mates are off clubbing and doing what people do 106 00:04:53,681 --> 00:04:54,561 Speaker 3: when they go clubbing. 107 00:04:55,161 --> 00:04:56,081 Speaker 4: I couldn't do all that. 108 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,521 Speaker 3: So allies did take a little bit of a different 109 00:04:59,521 --> 00:05:03,001 Speaker 3: path in terms of they were off doing that and 110 00:05:03,161 --> 00:05:04,601 Speaker 3: that kind of stuff that you're doing in your club 111 00:05:04,681 --> 00:05:06,601 Speaker 3: in so I had to go with my copper mates 112 00:05:06,641 --> 00:05:10,281 Speaker 3: at the pub and be more legal if you like, 113 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,601 Speaker 3: you know, you know what I'm saying. I couldn't go 114 00:05:12,641 --> 00:05:14,761 Speaker 3: down that route, so I did. I definitely missed out 115 00:05:14,761 --> 00:05:17,521 Speaker 3: on my mates, like they have stories about growing up, 116 00:05:17,561 --> 00:05:21,041 Speaker 3: and they were off off the tits for end and 117 00:05:21,161 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 3: they would come out of these stories and it's a 118 00:05:23,201 --> 00:05:25,121 Speaker 3: bit sort of I do feel like I missed out stuff, 119 00:05:25,161 --> 00:05:28,241 Speaker 3: but they are the sacrifices you make when you join 120 00:05:28,281 --> 00:05:28,601 Speaker 3: the police. 121 00:05:28,641 --> 00:05:30,241 Speaker 4: You know you can't do that kind of stuff, so 122 00:05:30,481 --> 00:05:31,361 Speaker 4: well you shouldn't do that. 123 00:05:32,041 --> 00:05:33,241 Speaker 1: Why the police don't? 124 00:05:33,641 --> 00:05:35,161 Speaker 4: Yeah, good question. 125 00:05:38,561 --> 00:05:42,321 Speaker 2: You just felt like, why not a fucking doctor or 126 00:05:42,401 --> 00:05:45,841 Speaker 2: a farm and by. 127 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I was definitely could have been a doctor 128 00:05:46,401 --> 00:05:47,121 Speaker 4: because you'd have to. 129 00:05:47,801 --> 00:05:49,121 Speaker 2: Know a lot of people back then and used to 130 00:05:49,201 --> 00:05:51,121 Speaker 2: join the army. A lot of my mates from left 131 00:05:51,121 --> 00:05:52,001 Speaker 2: school in the army. 132 00:05:52,761 --> 00:05:54,281 Speaker 3: Do you know, I think I did think about that. 133 00:05:54,401 --> 00:05:57,201 Speaker 3: I did think about that, but I don't know. 134 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 4: I was watching the bill at the time, so I 135 00:06:01,241 --> 00:06:03,361 Speaker 4: mean I was enjoying that all this was going on 136 00:06:03,361 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 4: in the background. 137 00:06:04,001 --> 00:06:05,721 Speaker 3: I think there may have been some first or something 138 00:06:05,761 --> 00:06:10,201 Speaker 3: on the underground that lured me in and I thought, yeah, 139 00:06:10,241 --> 00:06:12,481 Speaker 3: I'll go for it. And then you know, when it's 140 00:06:12,601 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: when you do something. I wasn't like fully committed on 141 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,481 Speaker 3: it. It wasn't like, I mean, I come up, I can't 142 00:06:17,521 --> 00:06:19,281 Speaker 3: really idea one day and decided to do it. 143 00:06:19,201 --> 00:06:21,641 Speaker 4: It wasn't like I was at seven years old. 144 00:06:21,521 --> 00:06:24,121 Speaker 3: Going running around in a little policeman's outfit, and it 145 00:06:24,201 --> 00:06:27,561 Speaker 3: was always my dream. I just sort of stumbled into it, 146 00:06:28,241 --> 00:06:31,121 Speaker 3: and I remember vividly my first day. So you you 147 00:06:31,161 --> 00:06:35,401 Speaker 3: go through the selection process, and actually the selection process 148 00:06:35,921 --> 00:06:38,321 Speaker 3: was like when I was about back now, it was 149 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,561 Speaker 3: a bit surreal. So you do a fitness test, and 150 00:06:40,601 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 3: back then it was a fitness test. Now you just 151 00:06:42,521 --> 00:06:45,001 Speaker 3: if you can walk. Essentially you get in the police. 152 00:06:45,921 --> 00:06:47,721 Speaker 4: Down so much. Honestly, you had to. 153 00:06:47,761 --> 00:06:50,161 Speaker 3: You had to be a relative a relatively high level 154 00:06:50,161 --> 00:06:50,681 Speaker 3: of fitness. 155 00:06:50,801 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 4: That you go through that. 156 00:06:52,721 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 3: And then you go to medical and the medical now 157 00:06:54,561 --> 00:06:56,241 Speaker 3: and I went back because I find it a bit mental. 158 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,041 Speaker 3: So you you got you do your eyesight test. I 159 00:07:00,241 --> 00:07:02,001 Speaker 3: remember I had to cheat on my eyesight test because 160 00:07:02,001 --> 00:07:06,521 Speaker 3: my sight was quite bad. I walked in and as 161 00:07:06,521 --> 00:07:08,481 Speaker 3: soon as I've got there, I clocked a line on 162 00:07:08,521 --> 00:07:12,401 Speaker 3: the on that on that chart that they have and 163 00:07:12,401 --> 00:07:13,961 Speaker 3: I thought it'd be about that and I need to 164 00:07:14,001 --> 00:07:15,561 Speaker 3: get to so I memorized it as quickly as I 165 00:07:15,601 --> 00:07:17,721 Speaker 3: could so that I could get so I could get 166 00:07:17,721 --> 00:07:19,841 Speaker 3: down to that one. So I got through that somehow, 167 00:07:20,121 --> 00:07:22,121 Speaker 3: and then you go through this medical and it kneel 168 00:07:22,201 --> 00:07:22,641 Speaker 3: was mental. 169 00:07:23,001 --> 00:07:24,161 Speaker 4: So you go into this. 170 00:07:24,241 --> 00:07:30,361 Speaker 3: Room naked, wearing a like a dressing gown, and there 171 00:07:30,361 --> 00:07:33,361 Speaker 3: are three men on this panel, three doctors, and they 172 00:07:33,361 --> 00:07:34,921 Speaker 3: asked you to stand in front of them, and then 173 00:07:34,921 --> 00:07:36,841 Speaker 3: you say take that, take the dressing can off. 174 00:07:36,841 --> 00:07:37,481 Speaker 4: So you stand there. 175 00:07:37,521 --> 00:07:40,881 Speaker 3: You start naked in front of these three men, stand 176 00:07:40,921 --> 00:07:44,081 Speaker 3: on your tiptoes. So you stand on your tiptoes, show 177 00:07:44,161 --> 00:07:46,201 Speaker 3: us your arms, so you're sort of showing us your arms, 178 00:07:46,281 --> 00:07:48,361 Speaker 3: and then turn around and touch your toes. 179 00:07:48,681 --> 00:07:51,321 Speaker 4: So you turn around and you've made over showing these 180 00:07:51,321 --> 00:07:51,961 Speaker 4: people your ass. 181 00:07:51,961 --> 00:07:55,081 Speaker 3: And at the time you think it doesn't seem quite right, 182 00:07:55,161 --> 00:07:57,041 Speaker 3: but I want to I want to be a policeman, 183 00:07:57,121 --> 00:07:59,721 Speaker 3: so you do whatever you tell me to do. 184 00:08:00,561 --> 00:08:03,001 Speaker 4: So there I am showing on my ass and after 185 00:08:03,161 --> 00:08:05,761 Speaker 4: I'm thinking, I'm thinking, what what is it they're looking for? 186 00:08:05,801 --> 00:08:10,001 Speaker 4: What what could be up like the smuggling drugs or something? 187 00:08:10,041 --> 00:08:12,001 Speaker 4: And what are you looking for at my house? 188 00:08:13,481 --> 00:08:16,801 Speaker 2: That's weird because what's the sense of getting naked for? 189 00:08:16,961 --> 00:08:17,881 Speaker 1: What to just do that? 190 00:08:18,321 --> 00:08:18,721 Speaker 4: I don't know. 191 00:08:18,801 --> 00:08:21,561 Speaker 3: They don't do it now, so you know, you know, 192 00:08:21,641 --> 00:08:23,281 Speaker 3: and you look back and you think all this dodgy 193 00:08:23,281 --> 00:08:24,961 Speaker 3: stuff that was going on in the past, I don't 194 00:08:24,961 --> 00:08:28,601 Speaker 3: know whether there was some sort of perversion we just 195 00:08:28,601 --> 00:08:31,401 Speaker 3: want to look at naked and then bend over and show. 196 00:08:32,001 --> 00:08:34,921 Speaker 4: I don't know, but you do it. But what worries 197 00:08:34,961 --> 00:08:36,401 Speaker 4: me there was I probably would. 198 00:08:36,241 --> 00:08:38,721 Speaker 3: Have done anything else if because by that point. 199 00:08:38,601 --> 00:08:43,041 Speaker 4: You're just like, I want to get in, So they 200 00:08:43,081 --> 00:08:45,441 Speaker 4: could have pushed it and I didn't. Hopefully and you 201 00:08:45,481 --> 00:08:46,921 Speaker 4: get in. I remember my first day. 202 00:08:46,961 --> 00:08:49,041 Speaker 3: I was like, I turned up a handing and I was, 203 00:08:50,081 --> 00:08:52,641 Speaker 3: they put you in this tall block of flats is 204 00:08:52,721 --> 00:08:56,001 Speaker 3: that you live in there? And it was a Sunday 205 00:08:56,081 --> 00:08:57,601 Speaker 3: night and I went to the toilet, was in a 206 00:08:57,641 --> 00:08:59,281 Speaker 3: you rhino. When I was, I was having a piss 207 00:08:59,281 --> 00:09:01,481 Speaker 3: and a fella stood next to me and we looked 208 00:09:01,481 --> 00:09:03,241 Speaker 3: at each other and I said to him, what the 209 00:09:03,241 --> 00:09:03,961 Speaker 3: hell are we doing it? 210 00:09:04,041 --> 00:09:06,001 Speaker 4: And he said, mate, idea because. 211 00:09:05,721 --> 00:09:09,121 Speaker 3: It's so daunting the thought of doing twenty weeks going 212 00:09:09,201 --> 00:09:12,161 Speaker 3: there to join the police. And I've got to be honest, man, 213 00:09:12,241 --> 00:09:14,521 Speaker 3: I didn't enjoy it at all. I've got through the 214 00:09:14,561 --> 00:09:17,721 Speaker 3: training and I did it. And it's all quite military 215 00:09:17,721 --> 00:09:21,161 Speaker 3: and you're marching around everywhere, and you your shoes have 216 00:09:21,201 --> 00:09:23,241 Speaker 3: got to be shiny, and trousers have got to have 217 00:09:23,281 --> 00:09:27,481 Speaker 3: this bullocks, but you get through and then you start 218 00:09:27,521 --> 00:09:29,921 Speaker 3: your nick And honestly that from the moment I got 219 00:09:29,961 --> 00:09:31,641 Speaker 3: on the street and I was actually doing the job, 220 00:09:32,201 --> 00:09:34,321 Speaker 3: I realized that, actually, no this, I've made the right 221 00:09:34,361 --> 00:09:36,121 Speaker 3: decision in life, and I've never regretted it. 222 00:09:36,161 --> 00:09:37,441 Speaker 4: I loved it. 223 00:09:37,281 --> 00:09:40,481 Speaker 2: It was it daunting your first day, you know, on 224 00:09:40,521 --> 00:09:41,881 Speaker 2: the beat, did you sense it? 225 00:09:41,961 --> 00:09:42,881 Speaker 1: You had a bit of power? 226 00:09:43,241 --> 00:09:43,641 Speaker 4: Do you know what? 227 00:09:43,641 --> 00:09:47,481 Speaker 3: I funny you should say that, and you you do? 228 00:09:47,881 --> 00:09:51,801 Speaker 3: I so not just me. I look at it this way, right, So, 229 00:09:53,121 --> 00:09:54,841 Speaker 3: when you become a police officer, it's like they give 230 00:09:54,881 --> 00:09:57,161 Speaker 3: you this coat that you put on, and when you've 231 00:09:57,161 --> 00:10:00,281 Speaker 3: got this coat, it suddenly gives you powers that nobody 232 00:10:00,321 --> 00:10:02,801 Speaker 3: else has got. And it does take a little bit 233 00:10:02,801 --> 00:10:05,481 Speaker 3: of time to get comfortable with that. And you know, 234 00:10:05,601 --> 00:10:07,521 Speaker 3: if you ever get if you get stopped by a 235 00:10:07,521 --> 00:10:09,441 Speaker 3: police officer and they're new to it and they're just 236 00:10:09,441 --> 00:10:12,401 Speaker 3: getting comfortable in his jacket, they can be the biggest 237 00:10:12,401 --> 00:10:14,801 Speaker 3: dicks in the world, can't they because they're trying to 238 00:10:14,801 --> 00:10:17,521 Speaker 3: get used to how comfortable it is. And the longer 239 00:10:17,561 --> 00:10:20,361 Speaker 3: you're in, the more your own personality comes out and 240 00:10:20,401 --> 00:10:22,681 Speaker 3: you can be you can actually have a conversation with 241 00:10:22,721 --> 00:10:26,321 Speaker 3: a person without sounding lockbot, stop being you. 242 00:10:26,401 --> 00:10:29,481 Speaker 4: That's what. And it does take a bit of time 243 00:10:29,481 --> 00:10:32,001 Speaker 4: to get used to wearing his jacket with these powers. 244 00:10:32,161 --> 00:10:33,681 Speaker 3: And let's be honest, some of them never get used 245 00:10:33,681 --> 00:10:35,761 Speaker 3: to it and some of them just abuse it. 246 00:10:35,881 --> 00:10:37,161 Speaker 4: But it but it is. 247 00:10:37,081 --> 00:10:41,161 Speaker 3: You suddenly become You're not You're not a normal I'm 248 00:10:41,161 --> 00:10:43,201 Speaker 3: doing Bunny is you're not a normal person in me 249 00:10:43,281 --> 00:10:46,041 Speaker 3: or a person that's got And I remember being in 250 00:10:46,081 --> 00:10:48,321 Speaker 3: a supermarket when I was They just give me my 251 00:10:48,401 --> 00:10:50,441 Speaker 3: warrant card and I went and I felt a little 252 00:10:50,441 --> 00:10:52,241 Speaker 3: bit different because I thought, I've got something in my 253 00:10:52,281 --> 00:10:53,761 Speaker 3: pocket that gives me powers. 254 00:10:53,921 --> 00:10:55,601 Speaker 4: And it's a weird feeling. I mean, I like Sally, 255 00:10:55,681 --> 00:10:56,281 Speaker 4: I was a child. 256 00:10:56,281 --> 00:10:58,681 Speaker 3: I was twenty years old as just at school and 257 00:10:58,761 --> 00:11:00,481 Speaker 3: having to get used to it does take a bit 258 00:11:00,521 --> 00:11:03,921 Speaker 3: of settling down and till you can actually be. 259 00:11:04,081 --> 00:11:08,361 Speaker 4: A person again and not a robot. And that and 260 00:11:09,521 --> 00:11:10,841 Speaker 4: I did thirty years in the police. 261 00:11:11,321 --> 00:11:13,761 Speaker 3: I got sorted once and that that one time where 262 00:11:13,761 --> 00:11:15,121 Speaker 3: I got sorted nothing to do with me. 263 00:11:15,161 --> 00:11:17,721 Speaker 4: It was like a party. I got called to a party. 264 00:11:18,441 --> 00:11:19,081 Speaker 4: There was a fire. 265 00:11:19,521 --> 00:11:21,801 Speaker 3: My mate turn up, calmed it all down and then 266 00:11:21,881 --> 00:11:24,201 Speaker 3: we had this like van of police officers turn up 267 00:11:24,201 --> 00:11:25,761 Speaker 3: and one of them is a complete dick and wound 268 00:11:25,761 --> 00:11:28,521 Speaker 3: everything up and I got absolutely kicking. I got I 269 00:11:28,601 --> 00:11:31,481 Speaker 3: got the absolute shit kicked out of me because there 270 00:11:31,481 --> 00:11:32,801 Speaker 3: were loads of them and there was just a few 271 00:11:32,841 --> 00:11:35,801 Speaker 3: of us. But I never got sort of the reason 272 00:11:35,801 --> 00:11:38,601 Speaker 3: why is because I could talk to people and relate 273 00:11:38,641 --> 00:11:42,121 Speaker 3: to people and treat people as if how would you 274 00:11:42,161 --> 00:11:42,721 Speaker 3: want to be treated? 275 00:11:42,761 --> 00:11:43,801 Speaker 4: How would you want to be spoken to? 276 00:11:44,081 --> 00:11:46,921 Speaker 3: And if you come back at that angle, then actually 277 00:11:46,961 --> 00:11:48,041 Speaker 3: you're probably going to be all right. 278 00:11:48,041 --> 00:11:50,001 Speaker 4: Most people aren't going to want to hit you. But 279 00:11:50,041 --> 00:11:51,881 Speaker 4: a lot of coppers can't do that. They have this 280 00:11:52,121 --> 00:11:53,801 Speaker 4: thing where they have to be different because they are 281 00:11:53,801 --> 00:11:54,401 Speaker 4: a police. 282 00:11:54,201 --> 00:11:57,881 Speaker 2: Well especially especially back when you joined, because like I 283 00:11:58,001 --> 00:12:02,641 Speaker 2: remember growing up that the kids back then didn't respect 284 00:12:02,641 --> 00:12:04,641 Speaker 2: the coppers, you know what I mean, because I'm the 285 00:12:04,641 --> 00:12:08,761 Speaker 2: beat and I don't know how the police, even COPD 286 00:12:08,801 --> 00:12:11,561 Speaker 2: would just walking around with a bloody truncheon, like how 287 00:12:11,641 --> 00:12:14,321 Speaker 2: the hell you and that to this day they still 288 00:12:14,321 --> 00:12:16,761 Speaker 2: do it, like it must be the only police force 289 00:12:16,841 --> 00:12:20,121 Speaker 2: in the world that has no weapons on them but 290 00:12:20,201 --> 00:12:22,081 Speaker 2: are freaking truncheon to hit someone with. 291 00:12:22,881 --> 00:12:24,361 Speaker 1: And I'm the biggest hat in the world. 292 00:12:24,801 --> 00:12:27,721 Speaker 4: You know what I mean, it's just stupid. I mean, 293 00:12:27,761 --> 00:12:31,601 Speaker 4: what what purpose? It serves, no idea. But that's what teaches. 294 00:12:31,281 --> 00:12:34,281 Speaker 3: You, I think, to be able to relate to people. 295 00:12:34,881 --> 00:12:38,321 Speaker 3: If you go into a situation where someone's really aggressive 296 00:12:38,361 --> 00:12:41,601 Speaker 3: and really wound up, you can't I'm not saying you 297 00:12:41,601 --> 00:12:43,801 Speaker 3: would do anyway, but you can't shoot them. I didn't 298 00:12:43,801 --> 00:12:47,241 Speaker 3: have taser. I did at some point I had c spray, 299 00:12:47,281 --> 00:12:48,801 Speaker 3: but early on I did. I literally had a piece 300 00:12:48,801 --> 00:12:51,641 Speaker 3: of wood twl inch piece of wood I only ever 301 00:12:51,721 --> 00:12:53,441 Speaker 3: used for breaking windows of cars and. 302 00:12:53,361 --> 00:12:55,401 Speaker 4: Getting in towers and stuff. I never hit anyone with it. 303 00:12:56,161 --> 00:13:00,561 Speaker 3: So it teaches you to be able to diffuse the situation. 304 00:13:01,441 --> 00:13:05,281 Speaker 3: I'm sure if you're you're beefed up there, you must 305 00:13:05,321 --> 00:13:06,561 Speaker 3: have done a bit of door work or something in 306 00:13:06,561 --> 00:13:09,281 Speaker 3: your time, a bodyguarden or something like that. Well, you know, 307 00:13:09,401 --> 00:13:12,921 Speaker 3: don't yet if someone's up here, if you go up 308 00:13:12,921 --> 00:13:15,361 Speaker 3: there with them, no one's coming down. Yeah, you need 309 00:13:15,481 --> 00:13:17,321 Speaker 3: you need, you need to try and bring them down 310 00:13:17,401 --> 00:13:19,641 Speaker 3: from from where they are. They're all agitated and stuff, 311 00:13:19,681 --> 00:13:22,401 Speaker 3: and if you come at someone calm, you're much likely 312 00:13:22,441 --> 00:13:25,321 Speaker 3: to bring them down and de escalate it and it's 313 00:13:25,321 --> 00:13:26,961 Speaker 3: not going to turn into a violent incident. And that's 314 00:13:26,961 --> 00:13:29,641 Speaker 3: what I learned because I didn't have I didn't have 315 00:13:29,681 --> 00:13:32,961 Speaker 3: the weapons to calm somebody down. My only weapon was 316 00:13:32,961 --> 00:13:35,681 Speaker 3: was the words I used and my manners and the 317 00:13:35,761 --> 00:13:39,441 Speaker 3: mannerisms and being able to communicate with someone. And to me, 318 00:13:40,041 --> 00:13:41,921 Speaker 3: when I look at what goes on in the United 319 00:13:41,921 --> 00:13:46,241 Speaker 3: States and how many police officers shooting people, I can 320 00:13:46,281 --> 00:13:48,001 Speaker 3: see how they can get to that stage where they 321 00:13:48,041 --> 00:13:50,801 Speaker 3: don't have to learn that they don't have to be 322 00:13:51,601 --> 00:13:53,441 Speaker 3: nice to someone, they don't have to be calm in 323 00:13:53,561 --> 00:13:56,281 Speaker 3: an influence, so they can come up up here because 324 00:13:56,281 --> 00:13:59,081 Speaker 3: they've got the backup of a firearm. So I do 325 00:13:59,161 --> 00:14:02,521 Speaker 3: think that it teaches you to communicate in a way 326 00:14:02,521 --> 00:14:05,321 Speaker 3: that can can diffuse those really violent Well, I. 327 00:14:05,321 --> 00:14:07,561 Speaker 2: Actually think it right there, because I know that, you know, 328 00:14:07,681 --> 00:14:10,961 Speaker 2: some some police officers get there that more of a 329 00:14:11,001 --> 00:14:14,081 Speaker 2: power streak in them because of the fact that they 330 00:14:14,081 --> 00:14:16,481 Speaker 2: are holding a gun, you know what I mean, They 331 00:14:16,521 --> 00:14:18,121 Speaker 2: do think, well, you know, what are you going to do? 332 00:14:18,161 --> 00:14:20,761 Speaker 2: But I do remember, back when I was living in 333 00:14:21,161 --> 00:14:24,401 Speaker 2: Liverpool before I moved over here, the Liverpool riots, and 334 00:14:24,441 --> 00:14:28,121 Speaker 2: I remember I remember the way I used to see 335 00:14:28,161 --> 00:14:30,801 Speaker 2: like that on TV and coming through that the police 336 00:14:30,841 --> 00:14:34,041 Speaker 2: had no control because there was no respect there from 337 00:14:34,081 --> 00:14:37,121 Speaker 2: the from the youngsters, because as I said, what are 338 00:14:37,121 --> 00:14:39,201 Speaker 2: you going to do to us? We're running with you 339 00:14:39,401 --> 00:14:41,321 Speaker 2: a brick and all you've got is this wooden truncheon 340 00:14:41,881 --> 00:14:44,281 Speaker 2: and you're not curtally tasing. You know, I haven't got a 341 00:14:44,321 --> 00:14:46,881 Speaker 2: weapon to do anything with. So I don't think the 342 00:14:46,921 --> 00:14:49,761 Speaker 2: police really got the respect that they did in the 343 00:14:49,841 --> 00:14:52,241 Speaker 2: UK from what I used to see as a kid. 344 00:14:53,201 --> 00:14:58,801 Speaker 3: I mean, so it hasn't got any better than I've 345 00:14:58,801 --> 00:15:00,721 Speaker 3: got two kids now. I've got two kids in the job. 346 00:15:00,841 --> 00:15:05,481 Speaker 3: So my daughter is a detective, my boys in we 347 00:15:05,521 --> 00:15:07,201 Speaker 3: talk about any fools and horses where he works in 348 00:15:07,241 --> 00:15:11,641 Speaker 3: pected in South London, And yeah, I don't envy them 349 00:15:11,681 --> 00:15:14,961 Speaker 3: because I think, yeah, I didn't get a huge amount 350 00:15:15,001 --> 00:15:16,481 Speaker 3: of respect. I think I got a little bit more 351 00:15:16,481 --> 00:15:19,001 Speaker 3: than they do now. And how they're getting mobile phones 352 00:15:19,001 --> 00:15:21,001 Speaker 3: shoved in their face and people trying to catch them 353 00:15:21,001 --> 00:15:24,921 Speaker 3: out and do them into doing stuff so they can yeah, 354 00:15:25,001 --> 00:15:27,321 Speaker 3: put them, make them, make them a sensation on YouTube 355 00:15:27,401 --> 00:15:30,281 Speaker 3: or something, loads of likes and clicks and whatnot. So 356 00:15:30,441 --> 00:15:32,161 Speaker 3: it's a much harder job than it was. I mean, 357 00:15:32,201 --> 00:15:33,801 Speaker 3: it wasn't easy back there, but it seems a much 358 00:15:33,841 --> 00:15:34,481 Speaker 3: harder job now. 359 00:15:34,601 --> 00:15:36,241 Speaker 2: Do you think there was a lot of corruption in 360 00:15:36,281 --> 00:15:38,321 Speaker 2: the police force back when you were like on the beat, 361 00:15:38,361 --> 00:15:41,441 Speaker 2: not only were detective, but when you first started, did 362 00:15:41,441 --> 00:15:42,641 Speaker 2: you see any kind of the corruption? 363 00:15:42,721 --> 00:15:44,961 Speaker 1: Did you see like you went like by other. 364 00:15:44,881 --> 00:15:48,441 Speaker 2: Detectives, like when the plane clothes or whatever, or the 365 00:15:48,521 --> 00:15:51,121 Speaker 2: superior ones in the force wouldn't talk to you. 366 00:15:51,361 --> 00:15:52,481 Speaker 1: Did you see that a lot in it? 367 00:15:53,081 --> 00:15:55,441 Speaker 4: I come at the tail end of it, so I enjoyed. 368 00:15:55,441 --> 00:15:57,601 Speaker 4: So the way that you used to become. 369 00:15:57,361 --> 00:15:59,241 Speaker 3: A detective when I did it is you had to 370 00:15:59,281 --> 00:16:02,201 Speaker 3: prove yourself on the street. You just call yourself. People 371 00:16:02,281 --> 00:16:04,481 Speaker 3: used to call you a thief taker and if you 372 00:16:04,481 --> 00:16:07,001 Speaker 3: were a thief, he got invited to be on the 373 00:16:07,041 --> 00:16:07,721 Speaker 3: crime squad. 374 00:16:08,281 --> 00:16:09,841 Speaker 4: So I joined the crime squad. 375 00:16:09,601 --> 00:16:14,201 Speaker 3: In around ninety seven, I think it was. And there 376 00:16:14,201 --> 00:16:17,601 Speaker 3: were some older detectives on there who so they would 377 00:16:17,601 --> 00:16:21,481 Speaker 3: have joined in the probably like this, what was that seventies, 378 00:16:21,561 --> 00:16:23,521 Speaker 3: late seventies, early eighties, And I've been in for a 379 00:16:23,521 --> 00:16:28,201 Speaker 3: long time, and they were on some units that were dodgy, 380 00:16:28,401 --> 00:16:31,641 Speaker 3: shall we say, and the police Commissioner at the time 381 00:16:33,121 --> 00:16:36,401 Speaker 3: came in and they were going to sort out corruption. 382 00:16:36,521 --> 00:16:40,721 Speaker 3: That that was their main task, like that's what they 383 00:16:41,001 --> 00:16:43,841 Speaker 3: got brought in to sort out corruption. And it was 384 00:16:43,881 --> 00:16:46,761 Speaker 3: funny because the detectives that are on my crime squad, 385 00:16:47,121 --> 00:16:48,481 Speaker 3: it felt like it probably wasn't. 386 00:16:48,681 --> 00:16:49,721 Speaker 4: It felt like every. 387 00:16:49,561 --> 00:16:52,401 Speaker 3: Day the net was closing in and they'd be talking 388 00:16:52,401 --> 00:16:55,281 Speaker 3: about someone else who's been nicked or and we would 389 00:16:55,321 --> 00:16:57,361 Speaker 3: go to court and there would be police officers there 390 00:16:57,361 --> 00:17:00,361 Speaker 3: that they knew, and it was like the net was 391 00:17:00,401 --> 00:17:01,521 Speaker 3: really closing in on. 392 00:17:01,441 --> 00:17:03,521 Speaker 4: All those people that were left over from that. 393 00:17:03,921 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 3: They're not saying all detective back then were corrupt, but 394 00:17:06,161 --> 00:17:08,561 Speaker 3: it tended to be certain units. And we had a 395 00:17:08,641 --> 00:17:13,961 Speaker 3: we had a unit in southeast London, Beckham. It was 396 00:17:14,481 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 3: right next to Peckham and so this was the area 397 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 3: crime squad and they essentially they dealt with drugs. They 398 00:17:21,321 --> 00:17:25,761 Speaker 3: dealt with larger so the street level would be uniform 399 00:17:26,001 --> 00:17:28,281 Speaker 3: type people would deal with it on the crime squad 400 00:17:28,561 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 3: and as you go up they would be in a 401 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 3: more middle tier of drug dealers. But these these coppers, 402 00:17:34,561 --> 00:17:37,521 Speaker 3: now these were criminals themselves. So what they would do 403 00:17:37,721 --> 00:17:42,521 Speaker 3: is they would go to drug dealers and pretend to 404 00:17:42,561 --> 00:17:45,681 Speaker 3: be executing a warrant, take the drugs off of them, 405 00:17:46,201 --> 00:17:48,001 Speaker 3: and then they would give them to their friendly drug 406 00:17:48,001 --> 00:17:50,761 Speaker 3: dealers would knock them out for them, sell them for them. 407 00:17:51,001 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 3: But they come on stuck. So they did a warrant 408 00:17:53,041 --> 00:17:56,201 Speaker 3: on a couple of hippie types in a caravan and 409 00:17:56,241 --> 00:17:59,401 Speaker 3: they went in there and they did the usual thing. 410 00:17:59,801 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 3: And what drug dealer is really going to go to 411 00:18:01,921 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 3: the police and say I've just had my drug stolen 412 00:18:04,961 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: by police officer. Doesn't happen. But these hippie types did. 413 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,761 Speaker 3: They went to the police and say, look, okay, look. 414 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 4: We admit it. We were selling. We were selling cannabis 415 00:18:13,041 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 4: or whatever it was. 416 00:18:14,201 --> 00:18:16,481 Speaker 3: But these police officers come in, they stole their drugs 417 00:18:16,481 --> 00:18:18,721 Speaker 3: and we think it's wrong. And that's set a ball 418 00:18:18,801 --> 00:18:21,881 Speaker 3: roll in where those anti corruption police started to look 419 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:23,321 Speaker 3: at them and they all got nicked and they all 420 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,801 Speaker 3: started turning on each other and like so, for instance, 421 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,561 Speaker 3: there was one job they had and they were near 422 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 3: Biggin Hill in South London and there's an airport there 423 00:18:32,201 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 3: and some drug dealers came in and they dropped bales 424 00:18:36,761 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 3: of cannabis, like big bales of them, about four or five, 425 00:18:40,201 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 3: and about two of them made it back. 426 00:18:41,441 --> 00:18:44,281 Speaker 4: To the police station and the rest just got siphoned off. 427 00:18:44,801 --> 00:18:48,401 Speaker 4: And I've got no time for these people at all. 428 00:18:49,001 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 3: I say, I grew up around criminals, but I don't 429 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,801 Speaker 3: respect them. But they're in their lane and their criminals 430 00:18:53,801 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 3: and they do it any kind of thing. Yeah, fine, 431 00:18:55,921 --> 00:18:57,561 Speaker 3: But but those that are in the in the police, 432 00:18:57,561 --> 00:18:59,240 Speaker 3: got no sympathy at all. So if they end up 433 00:18:59,281 --> 00:19:01,961 Speaker 3: in prison at which they did, they shouldn't be doing 434 00:19:01,961 --> 00:19:03,321 Speaker 3: that job, should they the police officers. 435 00:19:03,521 --> 00:19:05,481 Speaker 4: The police officers should be pleasing and there'll not be 436 00:19:05,561 --> 00:19:06,481 Speaker 4: criminals themselves. 437 00:19:06,521 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: You've had murderers and all like that. 438 00:19:08,041 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: What do you think in all your career, what is 439 00:19:11,001 --> 00:19:14,961 Speaker 2: the worst pedophiles, terrorists, murderers, what drug deals? 440 00:19:15,001 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: What's the worst one you've come across. 441 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:19,761 Speaker 4: It's a really good question. 442 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 3: I think the worst has to be terrorists in terms 443 00:19:25,201 --> 00:19:30,201 Speaker 3: of what it is. So as an example, so we 444 00:19:30,441 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 3: dealt with this particular job and we were working with 445 00:19:36,001 --> 00:19:39,121 Speaker 3: m I five and Special Branch, and we're following these 446 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,201 Speaker 3: people and that we arrest them, and it's not add 447 00:19:42,721 --> 00:19:45,041 Speaker 3: so the way that we worked when I was on 448 00:19:45,041 --> 00:19:46,761 Speaker 3: the terrorist branch, you had two sides of it. You 449 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,401 Speaker 3: had the secretive types who would be doing the surveillance 450 00:19:51,481 --> 00:19:54,161 Speaker 3: and listening to people's phone calls that kind of thing, 451 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,041 Speaker 3: and you had us and we were what's known as 452 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 3: Anti Terrorist branch, and we would do. 453 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,001 Speaker 4: Arrests, searches, interview them. 454 00:20:01,201 --> 00:20:02,801 Speaker 3: All the stuff where they would see us, all the 455 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 3: overt stuff, so covert and overt, and so we were 456 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 3: on the surveillance with them, but we wouldn't be doing 457 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,321 Speaker 3: the following. We would be sort of behind, tailing behind 458 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 3: slightly so that we can. 459 00:20:14,801 --> 00:20:16,681 Speaker 4: Get called forward to do the rest. 460 00:20:17,001 --> 00:20:19,521 Speaker 3: And so it's never had decision really, and so when 461 00:20:19,721 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 3: arrest would happen, and we arrested this group, this al 462 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 3: Qaeda cell, and it wasn't a lot of evidence, but 463 00:20:26,761 --> 00:20:29,681 Speaker 3: they decided that it was too dangerous to let them 464 00:20:29,761 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 3: run because they felt that they were close enough to 465 00:20:33,921 --> 00:20:36,120 Speaker 3: executing their plan that they couldn't let it run just 466 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:38,521 Speaker 3: in case they did. So we got them in and 467 00:20:38,521 --> 00:20:41,481 Speaker 3: we used to an interview at a place called Paddington 468 00:20:41,521 --> 00:20:44,321 Speaker 3: Green Police Station. It was like a police station within 469 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 3: a police station. It's really really secure, high walls and 470 00:20:47,721 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: all security doors to get into it. So I had 471 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 3: two of these terrorists there and there were six, so 472 00:20:53,441 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 3: we're three interview teams are two each. 473 00:20:55,441 --> 00:20:56,281 Speaker 4: I was lead on two. 474 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: We didn't have a lot of evidence really at the beginning, 475 00:20:59,521 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 3: and you kind of fill in time when you've got 476 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,321 Speaker 3: some of the fourteen days and never got a lot 477 00:21:03,321 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 3: of evidence, so you kind of talk and all sorts 478 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,521 Speaker 3: of rubbish, and then slowly stuff started to come through. 479 00:21:09,561 --> 00:21:12,321 Speaker 3: And in one of their garages they found a hard 480 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 3: drive and on this hard drive were the plans that 481 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,401 Speaker 3: they were putting together for their terror sacks and they 482 00:21:18,481 --> 00:21:21,761 Speaker 3: were chilling, honestly. So just an example of some of 483 00:21:21,801 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 3: the things that they were planning. Now, I say, I 484 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,801 Speaker 3: grew up and policing Greenwich. 485 00:21:26,721 --> 00:21:27,721 Speaker 4: And we've got an. 486 00:21:27,721 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 3: Underground station near North Greenwich, and their plan was to 487 00:21:30,921 --> 00:21:34,201 Speaker 3: put a bomb in North Greenwich because it's under the Thames, 488 00:21:34,961 --> 00:21:37,761 Speaker 3: that would bring the river down and flood the London 489 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: underground system. 490 00:21:38,681 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 4: So that was one of the plans. 491 00:21:40,761 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: In light bulbs, no sorry, smoke alarms, there's something called 492 00:21:46,801 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 3: a meriseum. It's an element in all the smoke detectors 493 00:21:54,721 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 3: and it's radioactive if it sets on fire. And there 494 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 3: was a fire accidental fire in a lorry in France 495 00:22:00,761 --> 00:22:03,961 Speaker 3: carrying like a couple of thousand of these smoke detectors, 496 00:22:03,961 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 3: and it became radio active. So their plan was to 497 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 3: buy out thousands of smoke alarms, and had even planned 498 00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 3: it to so they didn't raise people's suspicions that only 499 00:22:14,681 --> 00:22:17,321 Speaker 3: all these smoke alarms being born. They where they would 500 00:22:17,321 --> 00:22:19,321 Speaker 3: buy them, how many days they would buy them over, 501 00:22:20,001 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 3: put them in a lorry, drive the lorry into central London, 502 00:22:22,761 --> 00:22:27,281 Speaker 3: set it on fire, and they had calculated how many 503 00:22:27,281 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 3: people would die. They calculated how many people would be 504 00:22:30,961 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 3: given cancer. They calculated defects in berths, so they've worked 505 00:22:35,921 --> 00:22:39,641 Speaker 3: out how many people would have defective births. Because I mean, 506 00:22:40,041 --> 00:22:44,441 Speaker 3: these plans were just like crazy another one, and they'd 507 00:22:44,441 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 3: also started to do this thing in America as well, 508 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,441 Speaker 3: and this whole it was this document. 509 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,801 Speaker 4: When you read it, it read. 510 00:22:51,681 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 3: Like something you would see in a film or in 511 00:22:54,961 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 3: a book. 512 00:22:55,521 --> 00:22:57,041 Speaker 4: It was called the gas Limos project. 513 00:22:57,961 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: And the reason that was another one of their plans 514 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 3: was that they were going to get a hearse with 515 00:23:05,521 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 3: the gas canisters that you would have for like in 516 00:23:09,001 --> 00:23:14,161 Speaker 3: your you barbies over there, and stuck them in the car, 517 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,041 Speaker 3: drive it under a building and explode it in order 518 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 3: to bring the building down. And they'd also been doing 519 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,201 Speaker 3: some reconnaissance in America and they'd looked at four different 520 00:23:25,241 --> 00:23:29,241 Speaker 3: buildings in America, the New Stock Exchange, a couple of 521 00:23:29,481 --> 00:23:32,561 Speaker 3: a couple of other high profile buildings, and they'd done 522 00:23:32,561 --> 00:23:34,081 Speaker 3: hostile reconnaissance on them. 523 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:35,401 Speaker 4: So they looked at where the. 524 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 3: Cameras were, where security guards were, and we fed this 525 00:23:39,481 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 3: back to the Americans. At that time, it would have 526 00:23:41,921 --> 00:23:44,961 Speaker 3: been two thousand and four, I think two thousand and three, 527 00:23:44,921 --> 00:23:47,721 Speaker 3: two hundred and four. The army were on the streets 528 00:23:47,761 --> 00:23:49,841 Speaker 3: in New York and it all came back from us 529 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,281 Speaker 3: feeding them back the plans that they had. And one 530 00:23:53,281 --> 00:23:55,961 Speaker 3: of the terrorists that I was interviewing, so, as I said, 531 00:23:56,001 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 3: we didn't have a lot of evidence, so they started 532 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,161 Speaker 3: to feed stuff back to us, and some of it 533 00:24:00,681 --> 00:24:03,001 Speaker 3: they were asking us to look at. So we found this, 534 00:24:03,521 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 3: I don't know, this hard drive or something. Can you 535 00:24:05,441 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 3: ever look at it because we haven't got a lot 536 00:24:06,921 --> 00:24:09,041 Speaker 3: of people, and see if you can find any evidence 537 00:24:09,041 --> 00:24:12,161 Speaker 3: on it. And so one of the ones I was interviewing, 538 00:24:12,761 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 3: we had some videos that have been downloaded from his 539 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 3: phone and he was in New York and this was. 540 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 3: It would have been about year two thousand, so it 541 00:24:22,321 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 3: was before the ninety eleven and he was filming across 542 00:24:27,001 --> 00:24:31,041 Speaker 3: Hudson Bay and you see him the camera going across 543 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:33,401 Speaker 3: Hudson Bay until they get to the Twin Towers, which 544 00:24:33,441 --> 00:24:39,801 Speaker 3: is still there. The camera stops and you hear and 545 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,241 Speaker 3: carry on. And it was one of those moments where 546 00:24:42,241 --> 00:24:43,961 Speaker 3: the hair stood up on the back of my back 547 00:24:44,001 --> 00:24:45,801 Speaker 3: of my neck and I was like, can you rewind that? 548 00:24:45,961 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 4: Can you rewind that? And we did it again. 549 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,281 Speaker 3: It's like and it just it highlighted how high up 550 00:24:53,321 --> 00:24:57,241 Speaker 3: these people were, because they clearly knew about nine to 551 00:24:57,241 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 3: eleven before it happened, and it was just chilling to 552 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 3: think that these are the kind of people that you 553 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,521 Speaker 3: spend two weeks in an interview room talking to and. 554 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 4: When you when you're talking to these people. 555 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,241 Speaker 3: And I always I had a technique when I interviewed terrorists, 556 00:25:11,241 --> 00:25:13,561 Speaker 3: anybody really and it fall back to what I was 557 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,561 Speaker 3: talking about earlier about having that rapport with people and 558 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 3: being able to get on with someone. And I always 559 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 3: felt that it was much easier to try and break 560 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,401 Speaker 3: someone down or get them to talk to you if 561 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 3: they liked you. 562 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 4: So in between a terrorist won't even talk to you. 563 00:25:28,681 --> 00:25:31,321 Speaker 3: They won't they won't say no comment, they won't answer 564 00:25:31,321 --> 00:25:33,041 Speaker 3: their name, They just they will just even look at 565 00:25:33,041 --> 00:25:35,561 Speaker 3: the floor, look at the wall or whatever. But in 566 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,801 Speaker 3: between you can talk to them and you kind of 567 00:25:37,801 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 3: get a rapport going with them. 568 00:25:39,321 --> 00:25:41,201 Speaker 4: Do you like what football team? Do you like? What? 569 00:25:41,561 --> 00:25:43,481 Speaker 4: I mean? Where'd you get? What do you do trying? 570 00:25:43,561 --> 00:25:45,041 Speaker 4: Where did you go to school? Where do you go up? 571 00:25:45,041 --> 00:25:46,441 Speaker 4: All that kind of thing. So you're trying to build up. 572 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,801 Speaker 3: A rapport with them, and you have to do that 573 00:25:50,001 --> 00:25:54,721 Speaker 3: despite in that these people are so evil. But even 574 00:25:54,761 --> 00:25:58,961 Speaker 3: to go down to that detail of how many defects 575 00:25:59,001 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 3: in birth are going to cause, I mean, that is evil, 576 00:26:01,441 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 3: isn't it. 577 00:26:01,801 --> 00:26:04,161 Speaker 4: I can't. I can't think of anything worse than that. 578 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:06,961 Speaker 1: How calm were they when you were doing the interview 579 00:26:07,001 --> 00:26:07,361 Speaker 1: where they. 580 00:26:07,321 --> 00:26:09,721 Speaker 4: Really can't they were? 581 00:26:13,561 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: Both of them are made cry And there's one of 582 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 3: those things. 583 00:26:16,241 --> 00:26:17,321 Speaker 4: It's quite satisfied. 584 00:26:17,961 --> 00:26:21,321 Speaker 3: So and I don't mean by standing over them and 585 00:26:22,041 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 3: threatening them or anything, but you try and get in 586 00:26:25,241 --> 00:26:27,561 Speaker 3: their brain mentally. You're trying to get into their brain. 587 00:26:27,961 --> 00:26:29,801 Speaker 3: One of the first things you do when you're interviewing 588 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,921 Speaker 3: a terrorist, you call it a safety interview and if 589 00:26:34,321 --> 00:26:35,761 Speaker 3: you could do it even before they've got a solicitor. 590 00:26:35,961 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 3: In the UK, people have to have solicitor. It's very 591 00:26:38,001 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 3: very rare circumstance that you can't. But one of them 592 00:26:40,921 --> 00:26:43,041 Speaker 3: is when we do these safety interviews, and essentially what 593 00:26:43,041 --> 00:26:44,561 Speaker 3: you're doing you put them in an interview room as 594 00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:46,801 Speaker 3: soon as they come into the police station and you're 595 00:26:46,801 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: asking them if they know of the location of any firearm, 596 00:26:50,721 --> 00:26:54,561 Speaker 3: chemical or explosive that's going to be of danger to the. 597 00:26:54,481 --> 00:26:56,561 Speaker 4: Police or the public straight away put it in. 598 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 3: And what I always used to like to do is 599 00:26:58,281 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 3: periodically during the two weeks is revisit that just because 600 00:27:01,681 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 3: it's really important and you can't just got you've said no, 601 00:27:06,801 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 3: I'll leave it there, or you haven't said anything, I'll 602 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 3: leave it there during an interview. It's the way we 603 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 3: work in the UK is the phased interviews. In terms 604 00:27:15,721 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 3: of what you would tend to do the all people 605 00:27:19,961 --> 00:27:21,761 Speaker 3: you interview, the very first thing you do is you 606 00:27:21,801 --> 00:27:24,401 Speaker 3: give them an open question for them to talk to you, 607 00:27:24,921 --> 00:27:27,481 Speaker 3: and then once they've told you what you want to say, 608 00:27:27,481 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 3: then you then you kind of you go back over 609 00:27:29,441 --> 00:27:32,801 Speaker 3: it in what we call fine grain detail, but terrists 610 00:27:32,801 --> 00:27:35,401 Speaker 3: they don't do that, So you're talking to yourself essentially 611 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 3: for two weeks. But the final stage of any police 612 00:27:38,201 --> 00:27:41,681 Speaker 3: interview is known as the challenge phase, and it's only 613 00:27:41,681 --> 00:27:45,241 Speaker 3: at that point that you should start to point out 614 00:27:45,241 --> 00:27:48,961 Speaker 3: where they've made mistakes, or highlight their lives, or hit 615 00:27:49,001 --> 00:27:50,521 Speaker 3: them with the evidence and trying to build up the 616 00:27:50,561 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 3: pressure on them. Then you do that, you can do 617 00:27:52,761 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 3: that with people that aren't talking to you, too, so 618 00:27:54,441 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 3: you can all be nice softly, softly, softly until you 619 00:27:57,201 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 3: get to the challenge phase. And what the way I 620 00:28:00,481 --> 00:28:02,561 Speaker 3: always used to do it is I would be i 621 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,041 Speaker 3: would be very relaxed in an interview. I'd sit back, 622 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 3: I'd be I'd be joking around with them and be 623 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:11,321 Speaker 3: like their friend. But during the challenge phase, you change 624 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,281 Speaker 3: like that and like no warning, your smile will be gone, 625 00:28:15,201 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 3: your your whole demeanor is suddenly much more serious. You 626 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 3: lean in, so you're invade in their space and you 627 00:28:23,001 --> 00:28:25,521 Speaker 3: change very very quickly from someone who's just having a 628 00:28:25,561 --> 00:28:27,360 Speaker 3: relaxed chat with them to someone who's now putting them 629 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,881 Speaker 3: under pressure, and you start hitting them with the evidence 630 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:30,921 Speaker 3: and the evidence we had. 631 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 4: Of the the. 632 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 3: Twin towers, the Gaso Limost project. They're hitting them with it, 633 00:28:37,481 --> 00:28:40,121 Speaker 3: and you're really putting on the pressure of so some 634 00:28:40,201 --> 00:28:43,801 Speaker 3: of these it's expected to die in their acts that 635 00:28:43,801 --> 00:28:46,681 Speaker 3: they were about to carry out. But now they're not 636 00:28:46,681 --> 00:28:48,041 Speaker 3: going to be carrying. They're not going to be dying. 637 00:28:48,041 --> 00:28:49,761 Speaker 3: They're going to be going to prison probably for the 638 00:28:49,761 --> 00:28:51,641 Speaker 3: rest of their lives. Off certainly big chunk of it. 639 00:28:52,001 --> 00:28:55,561 Speaker 3: So you're trying to make them feel like your plans 640 00:28:55,561 --> 00:28:58,081 Speaker 3: have all come tumbling down there. You're you're going to 641 00:28:58,081 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 3: spend the rest of your life beyond bars. 642 00:29:00,001 --> 00:29:01,321 Speaker 4: Your family are going to be a shamed of You 643 00:29:01,401 --> 00:29:01,641 Speaker 4: don't know. 644 00:29:01,801 --> 00:29:04,321 Speaker 3: You're really putting them under a lot of pressure, and 645 00:29:04,361 --> 00:29:06,281 Speaker 3: you can see them fly wilted in front of you 646 00:29:06,721 --> 00:29:11,081 Speaker 3: because they've gone from this. Actually I'm quite relaxed. In 647 00:29:11,161 --> 00:29:14,041 Speaker 3: actual fact, one of the ones I was interviewing, so 648 00:29:14,121 --> 00:29:16,401 Speaker 3: sometimes you wouldn't interview him on a particular day, you'd 649 00:29:16,481 --> 00:29:19,161 Speaker 3: leave him in a cell. And one of the solicitors 650 00:29:19,401 --> 00:29:22,041 Speaker 3: of this bloke I was interviewing this list had said 651 00:29:22,081 --> 00:29:25,281 Speaker 3: to me, on the days where you don't interview him, 652 00:29:25,641 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 3: he misses you. 653 00:29:26,961 --> 00:29:30,681 Speaker 4: So that's that's the rapport you build up because you're there. 654 00:29:31,081 --> 00:29:31,681 Speaker 4: Imagine it there. 655 00:29:32,481 --> 00:29:34,801 Speaker 3: Their whole world's come down on them now that they 656 00:29:34,801 --> 00:29:37,121 Speaker 3: had got two weeks in just in a police sell 657 00:29:37,401 --> 00:29:40,441 Speaker 3: in an interview room. You're their link to the outside world. 658 00:29:40,441 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 3: I bring them newspapers, I'd be their friend. So it 659 00:29:44,321 --> 00:29:47,641 Speaker 3: was all aimed at this challenge phase. So it's all 660 00:29:47,681 --> 00:29:50,681 Speaker 3: aimed at making them so comfortable that you can when 661 00:29:50,721 --> 00:29:54,881 Speaker 3: you snap them out of here. It's psychologically it's a 662 00:29:54,881 --> 00:29:57,161 Speaker 3: lot worse because as a police officer in the UK, 663 00:29:57,241 --> 00:30:01,761 Speaker 3: you can't do anything that oversteps a line. So you 664 00:30:01,801 --> 00:30:03,641 Speaker 3: have to be sort of a bit more clever in 665 00:30:03,721 --> 00:30:05,881 Speaker 3: how how you can bring that pressure on. You can't 666 00:30:05,961 --> 00:30:08,881 Speaker 3: you can't physically pressure them, you can't lie to them. 667 00:30:08,921 --> 00:30:14,361 Speaker 3: You can't do anything other than try and subtly sort 668 00:30:14,361 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 3: of ladies traps, if you like. And I said, that's 669 00:30:16,521 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 3: what I did with him and this and this fellow 670 00:30:18,521 --> 00:30:21,361 Speaker 3: was like literally crumbling in front of me and I 671 00:30:21,561 --> 00:30:24,801 Speaker 3: and I revisited that question. I said, right, I want 672 00:30:24,841 --> 00:30:27,841 Speaker 3: to know, do you know the location of any firearm, 673 00:30:27,921 --> 00:30:30,601 Speaker 3: chemical or explosive that's going to be a danger to 674 00:30:30,641 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 3: the police or the public. 675 00:30:32,161 --> 00:30:34,081 Speaker 4: And he and he looked at me, and he. 676 00:30:34,081 --> 00:30:37,041 Speaker 3: Looked at it, slicitor, and he looked back at me, 677 00:30:37,081 --> 00:30:38,121 Speaker 3: and I said, do you want to talk to me, 678 00:30:38,121 --> 00:30:41,241 Speaker 3: don't you? And he kind of nodded, and I said, right, 679 00:30:41,281 --> 00:30:44,801 Speaker 3: I'm going to leave the room because solicit said I 680 00:30:45,001 --> 00:30:46,561 Speaker 3: I think I better talk to my client. I said, right, 681 00:30:46,601 --> 00:30:48,041 Speaker 3: So I'm going to leave the room, and when I 682 00:30:48,081 --> 00:30:49,521 Speaker 3: come back, I want you to I want you to 683 00:30:49,561 --> 00:30:51,361 Speaker 3: answer this question. I want you to talk to me. 684 00:30:51,921 --> 00:30:55,161 Speaker 3: And he was like sort of half nodding. So I'm colleague, 685 00:30:55,161 --> 00:30:57,481 Speaker 3: and I left. And you never get terrorists to break, 686 00:30:57,521 --> 00:30:59,641 Speaker 3: You never get them to answer your questions because they 687 00:30:59,721 --> 00:31:00,201 Speaker 3: got this solicit. 688 00:31:00,281 --> 00:31:01,241 Speaker 4: There's not a lot you can do. 689 00:31:01,561 --> 00:31:03,881 Speaker 3: But it was all to do with this psychological building 690 00:31:03,881 --> 00:31:06,281 Speaker 3: them up and then and then really snapping them out 691 00:31:06,281 --> 00:31:09,121 Speaker 3: of their comfort zone. So we're outside and we're almost 692 00:31:09,161 --> 00:31:12,241 Speaker 3: high fiving each other because we're thinking, like, this doesn't happen. 693 00:31:12,241 --> 00:31:14,041 Speaker 4: We're gonna we're going We're gonna be there heroes. We're 694 00:31:14,081 --> 00:31:15,321 Speaker 4: going to be we're gonna. 695 00:31:15,121 --> 00:31:17,401 Speaker 3: Be reporting back to our bosses saying guess what we've 696 00:31:17,521 --> 00:31:21,281 Speaker 3: we've discovered. So we go in, we sit back down 697 00:31:21,321 --> 00:31:23,081 Speaker 3: and I say to him, right, I want you to 698 00:31:23,121 --> 00:31:26,121 Speaker 3: answer my question. Do you know the location of any 699 00:31:26,121 --> 00:31:28,761 Speaker 3: fire on chemical or explosive? And he looked at his 700 00:31:28,881 --> 00:31:30,521 Speaker 3: list and looked at me and he said. 701 00:31:30,801 --> 00:31:35,641 Speaker 4: No, And it was like it was so deflating. 702 00:31:35,761 --> 00:31:38,081 Speaker 3: It was like he was he felt under so much 703 00:31:38,121 --> 00:31:40,041 Speaker 3: pressure he had to answer a question. 704 00:31:40,241 --> 00:31:41,721 Speaker 4: And where I thought he was going to go around 705 00:31:41,801 --> 00:31:42,361 Speaker 4: this turn around. 706 00:31:42,401 --> 00:31:45,441 Speaker 3: So actually there's a there's a bomb in such and such. 707 00:31:46,201 --> 00:31:48,641 Speaker 3: But I mean I was going, I ain't gonna lie. 708 00:31:48,641 --> 00:31:52,641 Speaker 3: I was actually going. But it was sort of justification 709 00:31:52,721 --> 00:31:56,761 Speaker 3: of of my tactics and techniques. Actually you can break 710 00:31:56,801 --> 00:31:58,401 Speaker 3: them down in terms of getting them to one to 711 00:31:58,441 --> 00:32:01,041 Speaker 3: talk to you, You don't get what you want sometimes, 712 00:32:01,561 --> 00:32:02,041 Speaker 3: have you have. 713 00:32:02,001 --> 00:32:04,441 Speaker 2: You ever come up against any of them, I especially 714 00:32:04,521 --> 00:32:07,721 Speaker 2: terrorists that have not been You can just see that 715 00:32:07,801 --> 00:32:09,761 Speaker 2: evil in them and they don't want to cooperate with 716 00:32:09,801 --> 00:32:11,441 Speaker 2: you at all. They just they don't give a shit 717 00:32:11,521 --> 00:32:13,401 Speaker 2: what's going on. If you can up against any of them. 718 00:32:14,001 --> 00:32:16,601 Speaker 3: So in two thousand and two, two ovens and three 719 00:32:16,721 --> 00:32:22,121 Speaker 3: we were trained to use they called it CBRN, so 720 00:32:22,201 --> 00:32:26,841 Speaker 3: chemical biological, radiological nuclear. These suits and you have a 721 00:32:26,961 --> 00:32:29,561 Speaker 3: gas mask type thing and all the suits and everything 722 00:32:29,601 --> 00:32:32,201 Speaker 3: and gloves and boots. So we were trained in this 723 00:32:33,361 --> 00:32:35,761 Speaker 3: in order to deal with situations where these were used, 724 00:32:36,321 --> 00:32:41,201 Speaker 3: and we were the first police officers ever that were 725 00:32:41,321 --> 00:32:45,161 Speaker 3: used in an operational situation using this. And what happened 726 00:32:45,241 --> 00:32:50,241 Speaker 3: was some information came out that it was a different 727 00:32:50,281 --> 00:32:54,361 Speaker 3: cell of different some terrorists had ricing. Ricing is a 728 00:32:54,921 --> 00:33:00,401 Speaker 3: really poisonous substance that like it is. It's used by 729 00:33:01,521 --> 00:33:05,361 Speaker 3: hit men from the old Soviet Union. That's the sort 730 00:33:05,361 --> 00:33:08,601 Speaker 3: of thing that can drop your dad straight away. 731 00:33:09,481 --> 00:33:11,921 Speaker 4: And we got this information that there was. 732 00:33:11,841 --> 00:33:14,721 Speaker 3: This rising was in this address in North London and 733 00:33:14,801 --> 00:33:16,841 Speaker 3: we got called early morning into Scotland Yard and we 734 00:33:16,841 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 3: had a big briefing room and we knew that the 735 00:33:19,561 --> 00:33:21,081 Speaker 3: six of us were going to be going into this 736 00:33:21,081 --> 00:33:25,121 Speaker 3: flat and they had a scientist from it's called Port 737 00:33:25,161 --> 00:33:27,681 Speaker 3: and Down. It's like a it's like a place at 738 00:33:27,681 --> 00:33:30,321 Speaker 3: an army base where they do all the chemical testing 739 00:33:30,361 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 3: and everything, and they had a scientist from there and 740 00:33:33,441 --> 00:33:36,761 Speaker 3: he was explaining to us what rising was. 741 00:33:37,321 --> 00:33:39,241 Speaker 4: And essentially what we were doing. 742 00:33:39,281 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 3: We were going into this address wearing a paper suit, 743 00:33:43,121 --> 00:33:45,361 Speaker 3: a mask and sort of thing you would wear if 744 00:33:45,401 --> 00:33:46,561 Speaker 3: you're going to go decorating. 745 00:33:47,201 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 4: And he told us that what you could. 746 00:33:49,561 --> 00:33:52,561 Speaker 3: Get on on the head of a pin that would 747 00:33:52,561 --> 00:33:55,841 Speaker 3: be enough to kill you. And we're seeing a minute, 748 00:33:56,281 --> 00:33:58,681 Speaker 3: you want us to go into this address as if 749 00:33:58,681 --> 00:34:00,761 Speaker 3: we're going to go in there as painting decorators. We've 750 00:34:00,761 --> 00:34:02,161 Speaker 3: got what I do is we want to wear our 751 00:34:02,201 --> 00:34:05,681 Speaker 3: cbr inkit, so we did so we so we ended 752 00:34:05,761 --> 00:34:08,921 Speaker 3: up it was wood Green and early that morning we 753 00:34:08,921 --> 00:34:10,721 Speaker 3: pulled up in the back of wood Green police station 754 00:34:11,401 --> 00:34:14,521 Speaker 3: and all the local police were out there is about 755 00:34:14,521 --> 00:34:17,081 Speaker 3: their change over time. We just swooped into the back 756 00:34:17,121 --> 00:34:19,601 Speaker 3: of the back of the police station and these sort 757 00:34:19,601 --> 00:34:23,401 Speaker 3: of four by fours got out, put on all this 758 00:34:23,561 --> 00:34:26,321 Speaker 3: cbar in kit and the police are there. 759 00:34:26,081 --> 00:34:29,001 Speaker 4: Like what he's going on here? And we put it. 760 00:34:28,921 --> 00:34:32,681 Speaker 3: On and we went into this flat and we put 761 00:34:32,721 --> 00:34:34,641 Speaker 3: the door in and we got in very very quickly. 762 00:34:34,681 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 3: We got everybody there and we got them handcuffed, et cetera. 763 00:34:38,281 --> 00:34:40,001 Speaker 3: And it turned out there was rice in there on 764 00:34:40,041 --> 00:34:42,241 Speaker 3: a pestle and mortar. There was some ricing. But the 765 00:34:42,281 --> 00:34:45,321 Speaker 3: person that the ring leader was a man by the 766 00:34:45,401 --> 00:34:48,521 Speaker 3: name of Campbell boll Gas and he wasn't there. So 767 00:34:48,641 --> 00:34:52,201 Speaker 3: he was now the number one wanted person by a 768 00:34:52,321 --> 00:34:55,761 Speaker 3: terrorist police in the UK. And we went all around 769 00:34:55,761 --> 00:35:00,241 Speaker 3: the country looking for him, and unbeknownst to us, a 770 00:35:00,281 --> 00:35:05,121 Speaker 3: colleague of ours had gone up to Manchester. And the 771 00:35:05,121 --> 00:35:08,801 Speaker 3: the time, the Home Office introduced these rules where if 772 00:35:08,841 --> 00:35:11,801 Speaker 3: you had evidence against terrorists you could basically lock them 773 00:35:11,881 --> 00:35:13,441 Speaker 3: up in prison, but you didn't have you didn't have 774 00:35:13,441 --> 00:35:15,001 Speaker 3: evidence to charge them, but you could lock them up 775 00:35:15,001 --> 00:35:17,841 Speaker 3: in prison or they get deported, and one of these 776 00:35:17,881 --> 00:35:20,641 Speaker 3: had breached this, so it was a DCI of as 777 00:35:20,681 --> 00:35:24,361 Speaker 3: went up to Manchester and what he didn't know is 778 00:35:24,481 --> 00:35:27,161 Speaker 3: in this house where there was these four people that 779 00:35:27,361 --> 00:35:32,161 Speaker 3: arrested the person who was wanted for this Home Office thing, 780 00:35:32,761 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 3: but Campbell Borghaus was there and nobody knew, and he 781 00:35:37,961 --> 00:35:41,161 Speaker 3: at DCI started to think there's something not quite right 782 00:35:41,201 --> 00:35:44,601 Speaker 3: about him, and he was starting to talk to people 783 00:35:44,641 --> 00:35:47,121 Speaker 3: back in London and was kind of coming back and 784 00:35:47,161 --> 00:35:50,321 Speaker 3: forwards to cambl Borgas and he was in a kitchen 785 00:35:51,041 --> 00:35:53,641 Speaker 3: with a fellow at DC from Special Branch up there 786 00:35:53,641 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 3: called Steven Oak and he wasn't handcuffed or anything. And 787 00:35:57,881 --> 00:36:00,881 Speaker 3: Campbell Borgas obviously started to then get win that actually 788 00:36:01,281 --> 00:36:03,681 Speaker 3: that they're starting to realize that it's me. I know, 789 00:36:04,161 --> 00:36:05,881 Speaker 3: if they know it's me, I'm going to get arrested, 790 00:36:06,601 --> 00:36:08,721 Speaker 3: and he ended up grabbing a knife and stabbing and 791 00:36:08,801 --> 00:36:13,121 Speaker 3: killing Steven Oak, and he got jumped on and got arrested, 792 00:36:13,441 --> 00:36:14,201 Speaker 3: and then he got. 793 00:36:14,001 --> 00:36:17,081 Speaker 4: Brought back down and I was there. 794 00:36:17,121 --> 00:36:20,481 Speaker 3: I wasn't interviewing him personally, but I was there and 795 00:36:20,721 --> 00:36:25,001 Speaker 3: I saw him, and we had officers like riot police 796 00:36:25,041 --> 00:36:27,641 Speaker 3: by the door. He was evil and he was one 797 00:36:27,681 --> 00:36:30,681 Speaker 3: of these terrorists that we couldn't have anything like pens 798 00:36:30,681 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 3: in the room, nothing at all that. 799 00:36:32,401 --> 00:36:34,601 Speaker 4: He could grab and hurt somebody with. 800 00:36:35,121 --> 00:36:38,361 Speaker 3: So in terms of terrorists and evil people that you 801 00:36:38,401 --> 00:36:40,201 Speaker 3: didn't want to be in a room with, it was 802 00:36:40,561 --> 00:36:43,681 Speaker 3: definitely camel ball guests, do you have do you have? 803 00:36:44,161 --> 00:36:46,361 Speaker 2: Like you said, you've got your ways of when you 804 00:36:46,401 --> 00:36:50,121 Speaker 2: interrogate someone and you you're you're trying to get stuff 805 00:36:50,161 --> 00:36:53,081 Speaker 2: out of them, Is that the same way applies when 806 00:36:53,121 --> 00:36:55,401 Speaker 2: you're doing someone like a pedophile who's here to kid, 807 00:36:55,601 --> 00:36:56,841 Speaker 2: you still do the same way. 808 00:36:58,001 --> 00:36:59,601 Speaker 1: Because to me, all. 809 00:36:59,521 --> 00:37:02,361 Speaker 2: Right, I've never come up against a terror so I 810 00:37:02,361 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 2: can't really say how to go about it, But when 811 00:37:05,321 --> 00:37:07,481 Speaker 2: when I know that there's a pedophile in front of me, 812 00:37:08,041 --> 00:37:10,961 Speaker 2: and I know what they're going to do to a kid, 813 00:37:10,721 --> 00:37:14,121 Speaker 2: it's be very hard to keep that straight face and 814 00:37:14,201 --> 00:37:16,961 Speaker 2: keep your job mentally switched on what you've got to 815 00:37:17,001 --> 00:37:17,601 Speaker 2: do as a job. 816 00:37:18,321 --> 00:37:18,921 Speaker 1: Was that hard? 817 00:37:19,841 --> 00:37:22,681 Speaker 3: No, because you know what you said, Daniel. You're doing 818 00:37:22,681 --> 00:37:25,041 Speaker 3: a job and who you're doing a job for. You're 819 00:37:25,041 --> 00:37:26,481 Speaker 3: doing it for that kid, and you're doing it for 820 00:37:26,521 --> 00:37:29,161 Speaker 3: future kids. So no matter who you've got in front 821 00:37:29,161 --> 00:37:31,201 Speaker 3: of you, no matter what they've done, you have to 822 00:37:31,241 --> 00:37:33,641 Speaker 3: detach yourself from that and think about what you're doing. 823 00:37:34,001 --> 00:37:36,841 Speaker 3: And everything you do as a detective is about court. 824 00:37:37,001 --> 00:37:39,321 Speaker 3: It's about taking someone to court and getting them convicted 825 00:37:39,361 --> 00:37:43,081 Speaker 3: and getting justice for a murder victim, for a victim 826 00:37:43,081 --> 00:37:45,921 Speaker 3: of sexual assort, wherever it is. You're doing it for 827 00:37:46,001 --> 00:37:49,401 Speaker 3: those people. So you know, I have a job to do, 828 00:37:49,441 --> 00:37:52,081 Speaker 3: a professional job to do. If I start my emotions 829 00:37:52,081 --> 00:37:54,201 Speaker 3: getting away, I'm not going to do as good a job. 830 00:37:54,241 --> 00:37:55,561 Speaker 3: And if I don't do as good a job, there's 831 00:37:55,561 --> 00:37:57,681 Speaker 3: a much better chance this person is going to get off. 832 00:37:58,881 --> 00:38:02,121 Speaker 4: So as a police officer, you are focused in always 833 00:38:02,121 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 4: on on that end goal. 834 00:38:03,401 --> 00:38:05,601 Speaker 3: I want this person in front of me to go 835 00:38:04,921 --> 00:38:07,281 Speaker 3: to go to prison. I want this person to face 836 00:38:07,441 --> 00:38:09,801 Speaker 3: justice for what they've done. And in order to do 837 00:38:09,841 --> 00:38:12,521 Speaker 3: that I have to be professional doesn't mean that you 838 00:38:12,561 --> 00:38:14,801 Speaker 3: have to like them. It doesn't mean that even like 839 00:38:14,881 --> 00:38:17,281 Speaker 3: those things I talked about where I had joking around 840 00:38:17,361 --> 00:38:20,121 Speaker 3: and laughing people, if you don't have to do that 841 00:38:20,201 --> 00:38:22,441 Speaker 3: and if you're not comfortable doing that. But when it 842 00:38:22,481 --> 00:38:26,561 Speaker 3: comes to dealing with them, in terms of the professional 843 00:38:26,561 --> 00:38:28,681 Speaker 3: things you have to go through, you have to detach yourself. 844 00:38:28,881 --> 00:38:31,521 Speaker 4: And it is always because of those victims in mind. 845 00:38:32,681 --> 00:38:36,121 Speaker 2: Well, I did read up that you did attend was 846 00:38:36,121 --> 00:38:38,761 Speaker 2: it the seven to seventh bombing? Did you attend that? 847 00:38:39,841 --> 00:38:40,121 Speaker 4: Yeah? 848 00:38:40,201 --> 00:38:43,281 Speaker 3: So on the Acesarius brunch we had this on call 849 00:38:43,401 --> 00:38:47,761 Speaker 3: rot and we were on call on seven seven and 850 00:38:47,801 --> 00:38:50,281 Speaker 3: we were in a police building in South London and 851 00:38:50,321 --> 00:38:53,401 Speaker 3: in the morning we had a big office and in 852 00:38:53,441 --> 00:38:57,521 Speaker 3: there was a screen with the news on and stuff 853 00:38:57,561 --> 00:38:59,521 Speaker 3: started to come through. We'd have Sky News on and 854 00:38:59,521 --> 00:39:02,721 Speaker 3: stuff started to come through that something was going on 855 00:39:02,721 --> 00:39:06,201 Speaker 3: on the London Underground and there was a there was 856 00:39:06,201 --> 00:39:10,961 Speaker 3: a lot of confusion. They were talking about surges in 857 00:39:11,001 --> 00:39:13,441 Speaker 3: the power lines, like a cause explosion. There was it 858 00:39:13,521 --> 00:39:16,241 Speaker 3: was there was a lot of confusion what actually went on. 859 00:39:17,001 --> 00:39:19,081 Speaker 3: But then we got a phone call from our control 860 00:39:19,161 --> 00:39:21,561 Speaker 3: room saying no there's there's been a bomb, and then 861 00:39:21,601 --> 00:39:25,361 Speaker 3: we've got there's been bombs and at the one stage 862 00:39:25,441 --> 00:39:27,601 Speaker 3: because of that, you can imagine the chaos that goes 863 00:39:28,161 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 3: on in those situations. You've got so many phone calls 864 00:39:30,481 --> 00:39:33,561 Speaker 3: coming through, so many different locations being given. Some of 865 00:39:33,601 --> 00:39:36,081 Speaker 3: them are on the underground, so at what end are 866 00:39:36,081 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 3: they being reported? At one point we were we were 867 00:39:38,561 --> 00:39:41,401 Speaker 3: working on the basis there are about nine and then 868 00:39:41,841 --> 00:39:45,881 Speaker 3: once things started to calm down, there were fewer and fewer, 869 00:39:45,961 --> 00:39:49,201 Speaker 3: and then we established it was four and mccauleague and 870 00:39:49,241 --> 00:39:51,641 Speaker 3: I we were the first to be sent to Edgeware 871 00:39:51,761 --> 00:39:53,681 Speaker 3: Road from the rest parts. So by the time we 872 00:39:53,721 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 3: got there it was really difficult getting there. For one, 873 00:39:56,841 --> 00:40:00,201 Speaker 3: London had come to an absolute gridlock. It didn't move 874 00:40:00,641 --> 00:40:02,521 Speaker 3: and although we had blue lights and sirens, trying to 875 00:40:02,521 --> 00:40:05,281 Speaker 3: get through that traffic was really difficult. So you edging 876 00:40:05,361 --> 00:40:07,881 Speaker 3: your way through and we eventually got to Edgeway Road 877 00:40:08,801 --> 00:40:10,081 Speaker 3: and it was quite surreal. 878 00:40:10,601 --> 00:40:13,281 Speaker 4: I had a big cordon around it. So by the 879 00:40:13,281 --> 00:40:16,241 Speaker 4: time we got in there it was definitely quiet. 880 00:40:16,721 --> 00:40:21,681 Speaker 3: All the injured victims had been removed to hospital, so 881 00:40:22,001 --> 00:40:24,521 Speaker 3: essentially I think we had a fire engine just sat 882 00:40:24,561 --> 00:40:26,561 Speaker 3: there with the with the fire brigade sort of sat 883 00:40:26,601 --> 00:40:29,081 Speaker 3: in it, a few police officers dotted around. It was 884 00:40:29,081 --> 00:40:33,641 Speaker 3: just really eerily quiet, and so we got there that 885 00:40:33,761 --> 00:40:35,361 Speaker 3: morning on Thursday morning, I think it was, and we 886 00:40:35,361 --> 00:40:37,481 Speaker 3: didn't leave for two weeks. They put us up in 887 00:40:37,521 --> 00:40:40,081 Speaker 3: a hotel to hill one straight opposite and essentially we 888 00:40:40,121 --> 00:40:44,241 Speaker 3: stayed there for two weeks and we our first job 889 00:40:44,521 --> 00:40:46,081 Speaker 3: was once we could get in, because they took a 890 00:40:46,081 --> 00:40:47,521 Speaker 3: bit of while getting in because I had to make 891 00:40:47,561 --> 00:40:50,161 Speaker 3: sure that the tunnel wasn't going to collapse. They're to 892 00:40:50,201 --> 00:40:54,201 Speaker 3: make sure no secondary devices, no chemical had been used, 893 00:40:54,361 --> 00:40:56,721 Speaker 3: that kind of thing. So eventually we got to go 894 00:40:56,841 --> 00:41:01,681 Speaker 3: in and we removed seven bodies from there, including the terrorist, and. 895 00:41:01,641 --> 00:41:02,841 Speaker 4: It was it was, it was. 896 00:41:03,881 --> 00:41:06,201 Speaker 3: It was an odd time because this was the first 897 00:41:06,201 --> 00:41:10,521 Speaker 3: time a suicide bomber had ever suicide bombings that ever 898 00:41:10,561 --> 00:41:13,721 Speaker 3: happened in the UK, so we didn't know for sure 899 00:41:13,761 --> 00:41:16,121 Speaker 3: that that's what it was. Because we were trained to 900 00:41:16,201 --> 00:41:19,721 Speaker 3: deal with bomb scenes but via the IRA and this 901 00:41:19,881 --> 00:41:22,441 Speaker 3: was something completely new to it. So our training essentially 902 00:41:22,481 --> 00:41:23,961 Speaker 3: was we would go down to an army base to 903 00:41:24,081 --> 00:41:26,681 Speaker 3: blow up a car and then we would treat that 904 00:41:26,921 --> 00:41:29,481 Speaker 3: as a bomb scene and the process you would need 905 00:41:29,521 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 3: to go through the gathered the evidence trying to find 906 00:41:32,041 --> 00:41:34,121 Speaker 3: the device and all sorts. 907 00:41:33,921 --> 00:41:36,161 Speaker 4: Of bits that you're looking for. But this was very, 908 00:41:36,241 --> 00:41:36,721 Speaker 4: very different. 909 00:41:36,801 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 3: So this was a bomb on a packed underground train 910 00:41:40,681 --> 00:41:44,001 Speaker 3: during rush out, so you can imagine, I mean it 911 00:41:44,041 --> 00:41:49,121 Speaker 3: was carnage and stood in the train itself and was 912 00:41:49,161 --> 00:41:54,561 Speaker 3: looking down and there was one person who'd clearly borne 913 00:41:54,561 --> 00:41:58,041 Speaker 3: the brunt of this explosion, and there was essentially nothing 914 00:41:58,121 --> 00:42:01,921 Speaker 3: left of them apart from their sort of their heart, 915 00:42:02,401 --> 00:42:06,681 Speaker 3: aorta and a couple of organs wrapped around the chassis 916 00:42:06,721 --> 00:42:09,841 Speaker 3: of the train. I remember saying, look at this port side, 917 00:42:09,881 --> 00:42:12,121 Speaker 3: I mean, they've really taken the front of it. Little 918 00:42:12,161 --> 00:42:14,401 Speaker 3: knowing that this was the bomber, This was Mohammed Sadi 919 00:42:14,561 --> 00:42:18,721 Speaker 3: Khan't And what I realized when I was on the 920 00:42:18,841 --> 00:42:20,761 Speaker 3: enterist punch I hadn't done before I got there, is 921 00:42:20,841 --> 00:42:23,681 Speaker 3: suicide bombers need to be identified for them to go 922 00:42:23,801 --> 00:42:26,721 Speaker 3: to their heaven, they need they can't do it anonymously. 923 00:42:26,761 --> 00:42:30,441 Speaker 3: They have to be identified, so they all leave identification behind. 924 00:42:30,481 --> 00:42:34,361 Speaker 3: And we had the first British SERI. British suicide bombers 925 00:42:34,401 --> 00:42:38,241 Speaker 3: were in Israel, Hanneithan Sharif, and we dealt with their 926 00:42:38,281 --> 00:42:40,641 Speaker 3: family here and one of them didn't blow themselves up, 927 00:42:40,641 --> 00:42:42,881 Speaker 3: but left his passport behind the film what they. 928 00:42:42,841 --> 00:42:45,161 Speaker 4: He would you do that, not realizing that that's what 929 00:42:45,201 --> 00:42:45,681 Speaker 4: they had to do. 930 00:42:46,441 --> 00:42:49,361 Speaker 3: So on the underground when we walked back down the 931 00:42:49,401 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 3: track to where when the explosion happened, so it goes 932 00:42:53,561 --> 00:42:55,961 Speaker 3: in all directions, so there was a hole in the floor, 933 00:42:56,361 --> 00:42:58,641 Speaker 3: hole both sides, and a hole in the ceiling. 934 00:42:58,681 --> 00:43:00,081 Speaker 4: And we were gone through the floor. 935 00:43:00,481 --> 00:43:02,521 Speaker 3: You could see on the track because on the underground 936 00:43:02,561 --> 00:43:06,081 Speaker 3: system in London there's lots of little grace, and you 937 00:43:06,121 --> 00:43:08,681 Speaker 3: could see a crater in the in the stone, so 938 00:43:08,721 --> 00:43:11,121 Speaker 3: you knew exactly where the train was when the bomb 939 00:43:11,121 --> 00:43:13,481 Speaker 3: went off. And in that crater was a credit card 940 00:43:13,961 --> 00:43:21,121 Speaker 3: in the name of mister Matt MS M C D 941 00:43:21,321 --> 00:43:23,201 Speaker 3: cant I think it said on the on the credit card. 942 00:43:23,481 --> 00:43:26,561 Speaker 3: So very quickly we were able to identify that this 943 00:43:26,761 --> 00:43:30,081 Speaker 3: was this was this was the suicide boyer and it 944 00:43:30,161 --> 00:43:32,441 Speaker 3: was my job to climb inside the train and we 945 00:43:32,481 --> 00:43:35,321 Speaker 3: had a garden hoe. We broke it in half and 946 00:43:35,401 --> 00:43:39,281 Speaker 3: I flicked his bits sort of around the chassis, so 947 00:43:40,361 --> 00:43:42,521 Speaker 3: they just fell on the floor and where all the 948 00:43:42,561 --> 00:43:46,001 Speaker 3: other bodies we were putting into body bags and sort 949 00:43:46,001 --> 00:43:47,681 Speaker 3: of zipping them up as you were, sort of sort 950 00:43:47,681 --> 00:43:50,041 Speaker 3: of thing you see on Telly him. I just put 951 00:43:50,081 --> 00:43:53,441 Speaker 3: into like a plastic sheet, tied it up, and that 952 00:43:53,481 --> 00:43:55,041 Speaker 3: was it, and then carried them off like that. There 953 00:43:55,041 --> 00:43:57,441 Speaker 3: was there was very little left of him, and then 954 00:43:57,441 --> 00:43:59,401 Speaker 3: we spent the next two weeks basically on our hands 955 00:43:59,401 --> 00:44:02,401 Speaker 3: and knees collecting everything that was in that underground. 956 00:44:02,441 --> 00:44:07,521 Speaker 4: Then you can imagine and where where we'd been trained in. 957 00:44:07,521 --> 00:44:09,601 Speaker 3: Those bombs that were talking about the sort of the 958 00:44:09,681 --> 00:44:12,961 Speaker 3: IRA type bombs, this was very very different, and at 959 00:44:13,081 --> 00:44:14,921 Speaker 3: very early stages what we had to do is every 960 00:44:14,921 --> 00:44:17,241 Speaker 3: time we come across a piece of body over certain size. 961 00:44:17,401 --> 00:44:19,201 Speaker 3: I think it was like two inches by two inches 962 00:44:19,321 --> 00:44:21,881 Speaker 3: something like that, we had to stop, get a photographed, 963 00:44:21,921 --> 00:44:24,881 Speaker 3: get what we call it exhibited, and you have to 964 00:44:24,921 --> 00:44:28,001 Speaker 3: go forward sort of procedures, and very quickly realizing well, 965 00:44:28,001 --> 00:44:31,601 Speaker 3: this is is not doable because the terrorists himself there 966 00:44:31,601 --> 00:44:34,241 Speaker 3: were bits of him everywhere, and a lot of them 967 00:44:34,281 --> 00:44:35,801 Speaker 3: were over this size. So we ended up with a 968 00:44:35,881 --> 00:44:38,561 Speaker 3: situation where it was almost like if we found a foot, 969 00:44:38,881 --> 00:44:40,801 Speaker 3: we'd photograph it. If we found a finger or a 970 00:44:40,841 --> 00:44:43,561 Speaker 3: hand or something like that, whereas all the different body barts. 971 00:44:43,561 --> 00:44:45,361 Speaker 3: It was just there was we were just overwhelmed with 972 00:44:45,441 --> 00:44:48,441 Speaker 3: him because he had just gone literally all over the place. 973 00:44:49,121 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 4: That was That was that was hard. I've got to say, 974 00:44:51,481 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 4: that was hard. 975 00:44:52,921 --> 00:44:54,721 Speaker 1: You've you've said that, Yeah, like I've read. 976 00:44:55,241 --> 00:44:58,601 Speaker 2: Yeah, don't quote me on this, but you've you've seen 977 00:44:58,681 --> 00:45:01,921 Speaker 2: over one hundred victims. 978 00:45:01,481 --> 00:45:04,561 Speaker 1: Killed in your career you've come across. 979 00:45:05,121 --> 00:45:07,721 Speaker 3: I was involved in about over one hundred murder investigations. 980 00:45:08,121 --> 00:45:10,041 Speaker 3: I can't ever put a figure on it because I 981 00:45:10,041 --> 00:45:11,601 Speaker 3: never kept count, but I did twelve. 982 00:45:11,441 --> 00:45:12,641 Speaker 4: Years investigating murders. 983 00:45:12,961 --> 00:45:15,921 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so at various some of them would have 984 00:45:15,921 --> 00:45:18,121 Speaker 3: been my investigation where I took it to call others, 985 00:45:18,161 --> 00:45:19,321 Speaker 3: I'll be helping other people. 986 00:45:19,441 --> 00:45:21,721 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, over one hundred murder investigations. 987 00:45:21,881 --> 00:45:24,041 Speaker 1: What was the worst one that you've come across? That's 988 00:45:24,081 --> 00:45:26,521 Speaker 1: still that's stuck in your head. Then it's gone, Wow, 989 00:45:26,601 --> 00:45:28,601 Speaker 1: that was something else. 990 00:45:29,721 --> 00:45:31,841 Speaker 3: I will always be children now, it will always be 991 00:45:31,921 --> 00:45:33,121 Speaker 3: where children were the victims. 992 00:45:33,201 --> 00:45:33,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. 993 00:45:34,121 --> 00:45:37,801 Speaker 3: I think I always talk about resilience in the police 994 00:45:37,801 --> 00:45:39,361 Speaker 3: and the way you build it up. So when I 995 00:45:39,401 --> 00:45:40,961 Speaker 3: first when I was at twenty year old and I 996 00:45:41,041 --> 00:45:42,561 Speaker 3: just just left school. When I come to the police, 997 00:45:42,601 --> 00:45:45,041 Speaker 3: I've never seen the dead body. But you very quickly 998 00:45:45,121 --> 00:45:48,841 Speaker 3: get you get sent to all what we call sudden deaths, 999 00:45:48,881 --> 00:45:52,121 Speaker 3: so if somebody dies suddenly, the police should attend just 1000 00:45:52,161 --> 00:45:55,441 Speaker 3: to make sure there's no suspicious circumstances around it, and 1001 00:45:55,561 --> 00:45:57,601 Speaker 3: it's the new police Officerly you get sent to all those, 1002 00:45:58,041 --> 00:46:00,161 Speaker 3: and you go into road traffic accidents, You get sent 1003 00:46:00,201 --> 00:46:02,601 Speaker 3: to post mortems to get you used to seeing their bodies, 1004 00:46:02,761 --> 00:46:03,281 Speaker 3: so you very. 1005 00:46:03,281 --> 00:46:04,681 Speaker 4: Quickly build up their resilience. 1006 00:46:05,121 --> 00:46:07,521 Speaker 3: So by the time I dealt with seven seven, I 1007 00:46:07,561 --> 00:46:09,401 Speaker 3: could professionally get on and do the job because I 1008 00:46:09,441 --> 00:46:12,681 Speaker 3: wasn't caught up in my own emotions, my own worries 1009 00:46:12,721 --> 00:46:16,121 Speaker 3: and fears, because to me, a dead body is a 1010 00:46:16,121 --> 00:46:18,041 Speaker 3: dead body. You've dealt with them, you've seen you've seen 1011 00:46:18,081 --> 00:46:19,481 Speaker 3: them so many times, you've seen bits of it. 1012 00:46:19,721 --> 00:46:20,481 Speaker 4: You can cope with it. 1013 00:46:21,041 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 3: But the ones I could never really get my head 1014 00:46:22,961 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 3: around in terms of just being completely fine with it. 1015 00:46:26,241 --> 00:46:29,881 Speaker 3: With children, and literally, if I close my eyes now, 1016 00:46:29,921 --> 00:46:31,961 Speaker 3: I can see the children that I dealt with, and 1017 00:46:32,001 --> 00:46:34,881 Speaker 3: I can see their dead bodies, and that is something 1018 00:46:34,921 --> 00:46:38,001 Speaker 3: that I don't I can only speak for myself, but 1019 00:46:38,001 --> 00:46:40,281 Speaker 3: it's something I can't, I could never ever get used to, 1020 00:46:40,321 --> 00:46:43,041 Speaker 3: and I'm glad I couldn't, because if sometimes you do 1021 00:46:43,121 --> 00:46:47,361 Speaker 3: worry that you end up you're so detached from what 1022 00:46:47,401 --> 00:46:49,001 Speaker 3: you do and you do worry, have you lost some 1023 00:46:49,121 --> 00:46:52,761 Speaker 3: kind of part of your human side? And certainly after 1024 00:46:52,841 --> 00:46:54,401 Speaker 3: seven to seven I felt that because a lot of 1025 00:46:54,441 --> 00:46:56,921 Speaker 3: people were saying to me, y, are you okay? And 1026 00:46:56,961 --> 00:46:59,161 Speaker 3: what worried me more than anything is how okay I 1027 00:46:59,201 --> 00:47:01,321 Speaker 3: was having done what I did. But then you kind 1028 00:47:01,361 --> 00:47:02,801 Speaker 3: of reflect and you think, well, no, I had a 1029 00:47:02,881 --> 00:47:04,041 Speaker 3: job to do and that's why I got on that 1030 00:47:04,121 --> 00:47:06,921 Speaker 3: did it. But where I was affected by the children, 1031 00:47:07,001 --> 00:47:09,881 Speaker 3: it was almost almost like a comfort to me in 1032 00:47:09,961 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 3: terms of you know that you've still got that human side, 1033 00:47:13,001 --> 00:47:16,361 Speaker 3: because if you're affected by seeing a dead child, you're 1034 00:47:16,481 --> 00:47:19,161 Speaker 3: you're not some you're not some robotic psychopath. 1035 00:47:19,241 --> 00:47:20,961 Speaker 4: You actually do still have those feelings. 1036 00:47:20,961 --> 00:47:23,681 Speaker 3: So as as horrible as it was, it was almost 1037 00:47:23,801 --> 00:47:27,081 Speaker 3: like weirdly comforting that I still can be affected by 1038 00:47:27,081 --> 00:47:28,721 Speaker 3: the things that you see when it comes to children. 1039 00:47:29,321 --> 00:47:29,641 Speaker 4: What was that? 1040 00:47:29,721 --> 00:47:30,481 Speaker 1: What was the worst one? 1041 00:47:30,481 --> 00:47:30,641 Speaker 4: Then? 1042 00:47:30,881 --> 00:47:33,201 Speaker 1: For if it was if it was children, what stays 1043 00:47:33,201 --> 00:47:35,481 Speaker 1: in your head for that. Well, by the time you've 1044 00:47:35,481 --> 00:47:39,401 Speaker 1: seen your first like you say, it was children, had. 1045 00:47:39,201 --> 00:47:42,761 Speaker 2: You were your father by that time, so that would 1046 00:47:42,761 --> 00:47:44,521 Speaker 2: affect you even more than were you correct? 1047 00:47:44,681 --> 00:47:47,521 Speaker 3: I think I think most definitely. Yeah, So there were 1048 00:47:47,521 --> 00:47:49,281 Speaker 3: there were two really that stick in my mind. One 1049 00:47:49,321 --> 00:47:51,721 Speaker 3: of them was quite high profile at the time. It 1050 00:47:51,761 --> 00:47:55,841 Speaker 3: was a an EastEnders actress that soap opera over. 1051 00:47:55,961 --> 00:47:58,201 Speaker 4: I'm sure most of your viewers have heard of EastEnders. 1052 00:47:58,561 --> 00:48:00,081 Speaker 3: And there was an actress from there and she was 1053 00:48:00,161 --> 00:48:03,321 Speaker 3: killed by her husband and he also killed their two 1054 00:48:03,321 --> 00:48:07,241 Speaker 3: young children brutally and buried them in the garden, and 1055 00:48:06,441 --> 00:48:08,801 Speaker 3: that was a really tough one for me. 1056 00:48:09,361 --> 00:48:11,001 Speaker 4: And there was another one. It was a young boy 1057 00:48:11,361 --> 00:48:12,441 Speaker 4: called Daniel. 1058 00:48:12,241 --> 00:48:15,641 Speaker 3: Who essentially he was a four year old boy who 1059 00:48:15,641 --> 00:48:18,561 Speaker 3: had been staying with his aunt and uncle his mum asked, 1060 00:48:18,761 --> 00:48:21,161 Speaker 3: I think his mum was a single mum. They were 1061 00:48:21,161 --> 00:48:24,361 Speaker 3: looking after him for a night or two and his 1062 00:48:24,441 --> 00:48:26,481 Speaker 3: aunt was a nurse and she had gone to work. 1063 00:48:26,601 --> 00:48:27,841 Speaker 4: So Daniel was there. 1064 00:48:28,041 --> 00:48:31,441 Speaker 3: With his cousins and his uncle and Daniel went to 1065 00:48:31,481 --> 00:48:33,961 Speaker 3: bed and he went to bed as four year olds 1066 00:48:34,161 --> 00:48:39,481 Speaker 3: can do, and his uncle got so angry that he 1067 00:48:39,521 --> 00:48:43,641 Speaker 3: inflicted injuries on Daniel that the pathologist that we used 1068 00:48:43,641 --> 00:48:47,721 Speaker 3: to look after to do the post mortem examination didn't 1069 00:48:47,761 --> 00:48:49,601 Speaker 3: believe me when I said to him, so part of 1070 00:48:49,601 --> 00:48:51,520 Speaker 3: our job is to go to the post morton brief 1071 00:48:51,561 --> 00:48:55,001 Speaker 3: the pathologist on the circumstances of the death and everything 1072 00:48:55,041 --> 00:48:56,721 Speaker 3: around it for them to come to. 1073 00:48:58,281 --> 00:49:00,321 Speaker 4: A give an opinion on cause of death. 1074 00:49:00,641 --> 00:49:03,601 Speaker 3: And when I explained to him the circumstances in which 1075 00:49:03,681 --> 00:49:06,601 Speaker 3: Daniel was found, he was like, well, I don't believe that. 1076 00:49:06,601 --> 00:49:08,721 Speaker 3: It can't be true because the injuries on this boy 1077 00:49:09,321 --> 00:49:11,081 Speaker 3: are the equivalent as if he's been hit by a 1078 00:49:11,161 --> 00:49:13,601 Speaker 3: car at thirty miles an hour or thrown out of 1079 00:49:13,601 --> 00:49:17,561 Speaker 3: a first floor window. His insides were just absolutely I 1080 00:49:17,561 --> 00:49:21,161 Speaker 3: mean amount of broken bones that he had in his body, 1081 00:49:21,401 --> 00:49:23,801 Speaker 3: and his uncle is literally just stamped him to death, 1082 00:49:24,521 --> 00:49:28,281 Speaker 3: or because he wet the bed and seeing Daniel there 1083 00:49:28,481 --> 00:49:33,241 Speaker 3: on that bed in the mortuary, I mean, I literally 1084 00:49:34,081 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 3: I can still I can still picture him now. It's heartbreaking. 1085 00:49:37,561 --> 00:49:42,521 Speaker 3: This young kid had his life just wiped out the 1086 00:49:42,521 --> 00:49:47,361 Speaker 3: most violent manner because he went to bed and it's heartbreaking. 1087 00:49:47,401 --> 00:49:49,721 Speaker 3: And it was always those children cases, those kind of 1088 00:49:49,761 --> 00:49:53,721 Speaker 3: things where as a parent and you're you're talking about 1089 00:49:53,921 --> 00:49:54,841 Speaker 3: the pedophiles. 1090 00:49:55,041 --> 00:49:58,601 Speaker 4: And it's the same principle, isn't it. You're in a. 1091 00:50:00,281 --> 00:50:03,681 Speaker 3: Like protection of children, your children, other children that remind 1092 00:50:03,681 --> 00:50:05,441 Speaker 3: you of your children when. 1093 00:50:05,281 --> 00:50:07,881 Speaker 4: You see that they've suffered in that way. That's really 1094 00:50:07,881 --> 00:50:11,241 Speaker 4: really hard. Wow, when you have. 1095 00:50:11,201 --> 00:50:14,681 Speaker 2: A serial kill out and you've got a murderer, Yeah, yeah, 1096 00:50:14,841 --> 00:50:17,681 Speaker 2: Like I always try and picture it, like what sets 1097 00:50:17,721 --> 00:50:21,761 Speaker 2: the fucking mind to go, I'm going to kill six women? 1098 00:50:21,841 --> 00:50:23,921 Speaker 1: I'm going to go out and kill this camera? 1099 00:50:24,201 --> 00:50:26,201 Speaker 2: Like, what what do you like if you ever sat 1100 00:50:26,241 --> 00:50:29,361 Speaker 2: down and tried to look at someone who you've detained 1101 00:50:29,401 --> 00:50:31,321 Speaker 2: and gone, what the fox sets you off. 1102 00:50:31,161 --> 00:50:31,561 Speaker 4: To do this? 1103 00:50:32,521 --> 00:50:35,401 Speaker 3: So since I've left, I've I've put my mind to this. 1104 00:50:35,961 --> 00:50:39,041 Speaker 3: I wrote a book when I left the police. Essentially 1105 00:50:39,041 --> 00:50:42,601 Speaker 3: it's about how murders are investigated. And I went to 1106 00:50:42,761 --> 00:50:44,841 Speaker 3: some Facebook groups, one in the UK, one in the 1107 00:50:44,921 --> 00:50:46,321 Speaker 3: US and said, I'm writing this book. 1108 00:50:46,321 --> 00:50:46,561 Speaker 4: This is me. 1109 00:50:46,641 --> 00:50:49,161 Speaker 3: I'm writing this book about murder investigation. What would you 1110 00:50:49,241 --> 00:50:52,401 Speaker 3: like to know? And the number one question, beyond doubt 1111 00:50:52,441 --> 00:50:55,801 Speaker 3: was why do people kill? And when you're investigating crime, 1112 00:50:55,881 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 3: it wasn't. It's weirdly, it wasn't something that i'd really 1113 00:50:58,481 --> 00:51:00,481 Speaker 3: put an awful lot of thought into because you're kind 1114 00:51:00,481 --> 00:51:02,561 Speaker 3: of caught up in it, and if you're in the 1115 00:51:02,601 --> 00:51:04,001 Speaker 3: eye of the storm and you're just dealing with it, 1116 00:51:04,041 --> 00:51:06,841 Speaker 3: you're not You've really put in your mind to well, 1117 00:51:07,481 --> 00:51:10,440 Speaker 3: why are these murders happening? And since I've left the place, 1118 00:51:10,481 --> 00:51:12,561 Speaker 3: I've done that, and I had this sort of light 1119 00:51:12,601 --> 00:51:16,361 Speaker 3: bulb moment where it kind of all become clear. And essentially, 1120 00:51:16,521 --> 00:51:19,561 Speaker 3: people kill because of three reasons. And it's the same 1121 00:51:19,601 --> 00:51:22,281 Speaker 3: three reasons that people choose to do anything. So whatever 1122 00:51:22,321 --> 00:51:24,961 Speaker 3: we choose to do in life, we will do to 1123 00:51:25,001 --> 00:51:26,921 Speaker 3: do so because of one of these three reasons. And 1124 00:51:26,961 --> 00:51:29,881 Speaker 3: it's because of how we're feeling, how we want to feel, 1125 00:51:30,121 --> 00:51:32,321 Speaker 3: and the benefit we get. So, Neil, you also go 1126 00:51:32,361 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 3: to the gym. So people go to the gym because 1127 00:51:35,001 --> 00:51:38,001 Speaker 3: of how they feel. I feel fat, I feel lethargic, 1128 00:51:38,361 --> 00:51:41,361 Speaker 3: or I feel inspired, how I want to feel. When 1129 00:51:41,361 --> 00:51:43,481 Speaker 3: I do it, I get a bus I beat my 1130 00:51:43,521 --> 00:51:45,881 Speaker 3: pb al, so I know by doing that, I'm going 1131 00:51:45,961 --> 00:51:48,121 Speaker 3: to feel something. What a benefit I get. So I'm 1132 00:51:48,161 --> 00:51:50,201 Speaker 3: going to lose weight, I'm going to live longer, I'm 1133 00:51:50,201 --> 00:51:51,441 Speaker 3: going to sleep better. Wherever it is. 1134 00:51:52,121 --> 00:51:54,241 Speaker 4: Whyever, you choose to go to the gym. 1135 00:51:54,601 --> 00:51:56,201 Speaker 3: It will be because of how you feel, how you 1136 00:51:56,241 --> 00:51:58,481 Speaker 3: want to feel, or the benefit you get, and that 1137 00:51:58,521 --> 00:52:00,960 Speaker 3: can be exactly transposed onto murder. 1138 00:52:01,001 --> 00:52:01,921 Speaker 4: It's exactly the same. 1139 00:52:02,521 --> 00:52:08,001 Speaker 3: So when we're talking about how we feel, I'm angry, jealous, 1140 00:52:08,641 --> 00:52:13,441 Speaker 3: I want revenge, I feel disrespected, there's some kind of 1141 00:52:13,521 --> 00:52:16,001 Speaker 3: emotion has been triggered in somebody by an event. So 1142 00:52:16,081 --> 00:52:18,641 Speaker 3: something's happened that's triggered an emotion, and that's how I feel, 1143 00:52:18,881 --> 00:52:19,321 Speaker 3: and that's. 1144 00:52:19,161 --> 00:52:23,081 Speaker 4: What's driven me kill. How I want to feel. This 1145 00:52:23,201 --> 00:52:24,481 Speaker 4: is where serial killers come in. 1146 00:52:24,601 --> 00:52:29,921 Speaker 3: So power control, sexual gratification, enjoyment, just to buzz the 1147 00:52:30,001 --> 00:52:33,241 Speaker 3: thrill of killing. That's how I want to feel and 1148 00:52:33,241 --> 00:52:36,281 Speaker 3: a benefit I gets. So robbery, a hit man, terrorism, 1149 00:52:36,761 --> 00:52:38,641 Speaker 3: they're doing his acts because they think at the end 1150 00:52:38,681 --> 00:52:40,161 Speaker 3: of it they're going to get some benefit from it. 1151 00:52:40,801 --> 00:52:43,401 Speaker 3: So when you break it down like that and you 1152 00:52:43,521 --> 00:52:47,641 Speaker 3: understand that's what's driving people to kill, you can differentiate 1153 00:52:47,721 --> 00:52:51,561 Speaker 3: between them. So I think anybody is capable of killing. 1154 00:52:51,601 --> 00:52:54,201 Speaker 3: Anybody is capable of it, and it boils down to 1155 00:52:54,241 --> 00:52:55,001 Speaker 3: that first one. 1156 00:52:54,881 --> 00:52:56,121 Speaker 4: How I feel that emotion. 1157 00:52:56,881 --> 00:52:59,401 Speaker 3: So if that emotion that's triggered inside you is fear, 1158 00:52:59,921 --> 00:53:02,241 Speaker 3: and that's fear for you or fear for someone you love. 1159 00:53:02,841 --> 00:53:05,841 Speaker 3: You could go and commit an act that couldn't result 1160 00:53:05,881 --> 00:53:08,601 Speaker 3: in someone's death because you fear the same you're in. 1161 00:53:08,441 --> 00:53:10,121 Speaker 4: Safety or your safety of your loved ones. 1162 00:53:10,521 --> 00:53:12,681 Speaker 3: And I think because of that, we can kind of 1163 00:53:12,681 --> 00:53:17,201 Speaker 3: get ahead around those acts. So, all right, someone's jealous, 1164 00:53:17,641 --> 00:53:19,481 Speaker 3: they might overstep them ruk and do something that I 1165 00:53:19,521 --> 00:53:22,561 Speaker 3: wouldn't do, But you can kind of understand it because 1166 00:53:22,561 --> 00:53:26,361 Speaker 3: you can understand intense emotion. You felt intense emotion, You know, 1167 00:53:26,401 --> 00:53:29,441 Speaker 3: you could do things that you might regret later. And 1168 00:53:29,481 --> 00:53:32,361 Speaker 3: the same with the benefit that I call it gain 1169 00:53:32,921 --> 00:53:39,041 Speaker 3: that I wouldn't kill because I want I want that phone. 1170 00:53:39,961 --> 00:53:41,801 Speaker 3: Would you kill if it was ten million pounds and 1171 00:53:41,801 --> 00:53:44,041 Speaker 3: you could get away with it? I mean there's a 1172 00:53:44,081 --> 00:53:46,801 Speaker 3: line there, and you can kind of understand how someone 1173 00:53:46,841 --> 00:53:50,721 Speaker 3: could depending on their personal situation, and it's all very subjective. 1174 00:53:50,761 --> 00:53:53,601 Speaker 3: You can kind of understand how someone could kill for that. 1175 00:53:54,281 --> 00:53:56,161 Speaker 3: I think the one we always struggle with is this 1176 00:53:56,761 --> 00:53:58,201 Speaker 3: how I want to feel. I call it a pull 1177 00:53:58,201 --> 00:54:01,641 Speaker 3: of emotion, where someone is hurting somebody because it will 1178 00:54:01,681 --> 00:54:05,201 Speaker 3: make them feel something. Domestic violence comes into this, where 1179 00:54:05,201 --> 00:54:08,961 Speaker 3: it's about power and controls or those serial killers. You 1180 00:54:09,041 --> 00:54:11,361 Speaker 3: name any serial killer, I can almost guarantee you it's 1181 00:54:11,401 --> 00:54:14,001 Speaker 3: because of this this pull of emotion. They're doing it 1182 00:54:14,041 --> 00:54:16,721 Speaker 3: because of it makes them feel powerful, or they get 1183 00:54:16,761 --> 00:54:19,641 Speaker 3: sexual gratification from it. And I think it's those killers 1184 00:54:19,641 --> 00:54:22,801 Speaker 3: that we struggle with because we wouldn't do that. I say, 1185 00:54:23,081 --> 00:54:25,361 Speaker 3: the majority of us, last majority of us wouldn't hurt 1186 00:54:25,441 --> 00:54:28,641 Speaker 3: somebody just because it will make us feel better. And 1187 00:54:28,641 --> 00:54:31,041 Speaker 3: it's those ones that we really really struggle with. And 1188 00:54:31,081 --> 00:54:33,201 Speaker 3: it's those ones that tend to be the serial killers. 1189 00:54:33,241 --> 00:54:35,881 Speaker 3: You name any serial killer, I can alwayst guarantee you 1190 00:54:36,241 --> 00:54:39,201 Speaker 3: the reason they're doing it is because they're chasing that feeling. 1191 00:54:39,841 --> 00:54:42,321 Speaker 3: Whatever it was that they got the first time, they 1192 00:54:42,361 --> 00:54:43,641 Speaker 3: want to do it again, or they want to up 1193 00:54:43,641 --> 00:54:45,681 Speaker 3: their game and make them feel even worse. I wrote 1194 00:54:45,681 --> 00:54:48,321 Speaker 3: about a book about Jack the Ripper, and when you 1195 00:54:48,361 --> 00:54:51,121 Speaker 3: follow Jack, when you follow Jack the Ripper's crimes, you 1196 00:54:51,161 --> 00:54:51,641 Speaker 3: can see this. 1197 00:54:51,801 --> 00:54:54,041 Speaker 4: You can see this pattern in his crimes is increasing. 1198 00:54:54,081 --> 00:54:56,801 Speaker 3: What he's doing because he's chasing that feeling a bit 1199 00:54:56,881 --> 00:55:00,201 Speaker 3: like an adrenaline junkie who starts off skateboard and it 1200 00:55:00,321 --> 00:55:04,361 Speaker 3: ends up base jumping. They're those steps because always chasing 1201 00:55:04,401 --> 00:55:05,801 Speaker 3: that feeling and that's. 1202 00:55:05,601 --> 00:55:07,121 Speaker 4: What you get with serial killers. 1203 00:55:07,401 --> 00:55:11,561 Speaker 1: Wow, well tell me something, we'll go, we'll get off 1204 00:55:11,561 --> 00:55:13,041 Speaker 1: the gruesome ships. 1205 00:55:14,041 --> 00:55:16,081 Speaker 4: Tell me tell me, I thought that was what I 1206 00:55:16,121 --> 00:55:16,561 Speaker 4: was saying for. 1207 00:55:18,681 --> 00:55:22,921 Speaker 2: Tell me something, the funniest situation you've been in in 1208 00:55:22,961 --> 00:55:24,401 Speaker 2: that thirty years you've been in the force. 1209 00:55:25,561 --> 00:55:30,081 Speaker 3: Right, So the police in London decided that they would 1210 00:55:30,161 --> 00:55:31,921 Speaker 3: lower the height limit and it was I think it 1211 00:55:31,961 --> 00:55:34,241 Speaker 3: was all to do with diversity, but essentially we ended 1212 00:55:34,281 --> 00:55:36,641 Speaker 3: up with short fellas, short white fellas in the police. 1213 00:55:36,641 --> 00:55:37,441 Speaker 4: That's all that happened. 1214 00:55:38,241 --> 00:55:41,721 Speaker 3: And so I was working in uniform with this fellow 1215 00:55:41,841 --> 00:55:44,081 Speaker 3: and no word of a lie. He wasn't very far. 1216 00:55:44,201 --> 00:55:46,841 Speaker 3: He was about five foot two maybe the most. 1217 00:55:47,161 --> 00:55:48,041 Speaker 4: I mean, he was tiny. 1218 00:55:49,481 --> 00:55:52,641 Speaker 3: And we got called to this flat and it was 1219 00:55:53,921 --> 00:55:55,841 Speaker 3: a call. We got called to a lot. Somebody hadn't 1220 00:55:55,881 --> 00:55:59,161 Speaker 3: the neighbor, hadn't seen their neighbor for a period of time. 1221 00:55:59,841 --> 00:56:02,761 Speaker 4: And we got there. It was a first floor flat. 1222 00:56:03,201 --> 00:56:05,201 Speaker 3: And what you would do when you get called to 1223 00:56:05,241 --> 00:56:07,041 Speaker 3: these things you would put your nose through the letter 1224 00:56:07,041 --> 00:56:09,521 Speaker 3: box because very early on in the police you get 1225 00:56:09,521 --> 00:56:12,241 Speaker 3: to learn what death smells like. And if you put 1226 00:56:12,281 --> 00:56:15,641 Speaker 3: your nose to a door where somebody's dead inside, you 1227 00:56:15,641 --> 00:56:17,561 Speaker 3: can generally smell it. You get this, you get this 1228 00:56:17,601 --> 00:56:19,921 Speaker 3: smell and once you once you know it for that cannabis. 1229 00:56:19,961 --> 00:56:21,721 Speaker 3: So you know to smell a cannabis, you will never 1230 00:56:21,721 --> 00:56:24,081 Speaker 3: forget it. When you know the smell of a dead body, 1231 00:56:24,121 --> 00:56:26,441 Speaker 3: you'll never forget it. And I'll put my nose to 1232 00:56:26,481 --> 00:56:29,520 Speaker 3: this letter box and there's nothing, nothing there, nothing really 1233 00:56:29,681 --> 00:56:31,121 Speaker 3: I could smell and. 1234 00:56:31,881 --> 00:56:34,801 Speaker 4: Thought the door was locked, and I could have kicked 1235 00:56:34,801 --> 00:56:35,161 Speaker 4: the door in. 1236 00:56:35,201 --> 00:56:36,801 Speaker 3: But when you kick a door in, you have to 1237 00:56:36,801 --> 00:56:39,201 Speaker 3: wait around for hours for the people to come from 1238 00:56:39,201 --> 00:56:41,561 Speaker 3: a period. I don't really want to have to kick 1239 00:56:41,601 --> 00:56:43,681 Speaker 3: the door in. And the neighbor says to me, the 1240 00:56:43,721 --> 00:56:45,801 Speaker 3: windows are a bit dodgy. I've got a ladder. If 1241 00:56:45,801 --> 00:56:47,841 Speaker 3: i'll give you the ladder, you can put it up 1242 00:56:47,841 --> 00:56:50,521 Speaker 3: against the bedroom window and you can just open the 1243 00:56:50,521 --> 00:56:51,121 Speaker 3: window and get in. 1244 00:56:51,241 --> 00:56:52,161 Speaker 4: Thought, well, that's a good idea. 1245 00:56:52,561 --> 00:56:54,921 Speaker 3: And the young PC that I was with, because he 1246 00:56:55,001 --> 00:56:57,561 Speaker 3: was new, you tended to send them in their situation. 1247 00:56:57,681 --> 00:56:59,521 Speaker 4: So I was like, right, you get up ladder and 1248 00:56:59,561 --> 00:57:00,281 Speaker 4: get in the window. 1249 00:57:00,921 --> 00:57:03,041 Speaker 3: But because he was too short, you couldn't get between 1250 00:57:03,041 --> 00:57:06,081 Speaker 3: the ladder and the window to go up and do it. 1251 00:57:06,921 --> 00:57:10,921 Speaker 3: So I climbed up, opened pushed the window open, and 1252 00:57:10,961 --> 00:57:13,721 Speaker 3: there was a dressing table leant against the window and 1253 00:57:13,961 --> 00:57:16,281 Speaker 3: I had to push it and it fell onto the bed, 1254 00:57:16,721 --> 00:57:18,721 Speaker 3: so it was like a forty five degree angle to 1255 00:57:18,761 --> 00:57:21,721 Speaker 3: the bed. And I climbed in and I opened the door, 1256 00:57:22,281 --> 00:57:25,201 Speaker 3: and coliage and I went around. We searched a flat 1257 00:57:25,241 --> 00:57:27,801 Speaker 3: and nothing there like there was there's no dead body, 1258 00:57:27,801 --> 00:57:30,721 Speaker 3: there was no smell of it. Electricity wasn't working, so 1259 00:57:30,761 --> 00:57:33,681 Speaker 3: I had to have a torch. And the only place 1260 00:57:33,721 --> 00:57:36,041 Speaker 3: I hadn't searched was the other side of the bed 1261 00:57:36,081 --> 00:57:40,881 Speaker 3: where the dressing table had fallen. So I stepped onto 1262 00:57:40,921 --> 00:57:42,201 Speaker 3: the bed to go on the other side. And this 1263 00:57:42,321 --> 00:57:46,041 Speaker 3: I did a leg flew up and hit me and Neil. 1264 00:57:46,761 --> 00:57:49,801 Speaker 3: I ran out of the flat screaming. In frightened me 1265 00:57:49,841 --> 00:57:53,241 Speaker 3: so much. I ran out of the flat screaming, and 1266 00:57:53,321 --> 00:57:56,481 Speaker 3: he come running out screaming after me. When we got outside, 1267 00:57:56,521 --> 00:58:00,001 Speaker 3: he said, why are we screaming? I said, the fucking 1268 00:58:00,041 --> 00:58:05,161 Speaker 3: dead body, and it just kicked me. And then and 1269 00:58:05,161 --> 00:58:08,561 Speaker 3: then that was it. Suddenly we'd release this smell and 1270 00:58:09,201 --> 00:58:11,561 Speaker 3: there were blue there were flyers everywhere. 1271 00:58:11,681 --> 00:58:13,641 Speaker 4: The smell of it, and it was awful. 1272 00:58:13,681 --> 00:58:15,601 Speaker 3: And I climbed over the bed like tentatively, and I 1273 00:58:15,641 --> 00:58:19,121 Speaker 3: looked down and this feller had basically melted into the carpet. 1274 00:58:19,281 --> 00:58:21,681 Speaker 3: His head was next to the radiator, and he just 1275 00:58:21,921 --> 00:58:24,601 Speaker 3: melted into the carpet. 1276 00:58:23,441 --> 00:58:26,161 Speaker 4: From apart from his lower end of the body. 1277 00:58:26,721 --> 00:58:28,921 Speaker 3: And it was the first time I'd ever seen the 1278 00:58:28,921 --> 00:58:31,761 Speaker 3: carcasses of maggots, and they looked like kidney beans, and 1279 00:58:31,761 --> 00:58:33,161 Speaker 3: I couldn't eat kidney beans. 1280 00:58:32,961 --> 00:58:33,921 Speaker 4: For years after. 1281 00:58:35,961 --> 00:58:38,041 Speaker 3: I called the doctor, and the doctor k and you 1282 00:58:38,081 --> 00:58:39,721 Speaker 3: have to get a doctor. Back then, you have to 1283 00:58:39,761 --> 00:58:42,041 Speaker 3: get a doctor to certify if someone was dead. And 1284 00:58:42,041 --> 00:58:49,201 Speaker 3: she opened the door, she put her nose in dead. Honestly, 1285 00:58:49,201 --> 00:58:51,281 Speaker 3: think that's the most scared I've ever been in the place. 1286 00:58:51,921 --> 00:58:53,081 Speaker 4: Screamed before. 1287 00:58:55,201 --> 00:58:59,841 Speaker 2: Any regrets, nothing you would have changed in your thirty years. 1288 00:59:00,241 --> 00:59:02,361 Speaker 4: Part of me wonders where ROSSI had got promoted earlier. 1289 00:59:02,441 --> 00:59:05,881 Speaker 3: So I got promoted quite late. And don't tell anyone this, 1290 00:59:05,961 --> 00:59:10,801 Speaker 3: but I only got promoted for the money. So you back then, 1291 00:59:10,881 --> 00:59:12,961 Speaker 3: your pension was a final salary. It's changed now. It 1292 00:59:13,041 --> 00:59:15,441 Speaker 3: was a final salary. So if you got promoted at 1293 00:59:15,441 --> 00:59:17,201 Speaker 3: the end, we scoll it a dash for cash. So 1294 00:59:17,241 --> 00:59:19,081 Speaker 3: you get promoted and it pump you pension. 1295 00:59:18,841 --> 00:59:21,481 Speaker 4: That I do wonder whether I should have got promoted earlier. 1296 00:59:21,601 --> 00:59:23,721 Speaker 4: But apart from that, no, not really no. 1297 00:59:23,841 --> 00:59:26,801 Speaker 1: So what's now? So what's next for you? Steve? Like 1298 00:59:27,081 --> 00:59:29,721 Speaker 1: you've left? What what was the reason why you did leave? 1299 00:59:29,761 --> 00:59:32,801 Speaker 4: What? What? What did thirty years? Thirty years? Yeah? 1300 00:59:32,841 --> 00:59:35,961 Speaker 3: Yeah, so when I joined you sign up for thirty years. 1301 00:59:36,521 --> 00:59:38,481 Speaker 3: I've got to be honest, mate, I was ready to 1302 00:59:38,481 --> 00:59:42,321 Speaker 3: go at the end. When you when you investigate murder, 1303 00:59:42,361 --> 00:59:43,961 Speaker 3: and I did it for the last twelve years of 1304 00:59:43,961 --> 00:59:48,321 Speaker 3: my career, it can take over your life. So you 1305 00:59:48,761 --> 00:59:50,561 Speaker 3: don't do an eight to four. You don't do an 1306 00:59:50,601 --> 00:59:53,121 Speaker 3: eight hour day. You do eight till midnight. You do 1307 00:59:53,201 --> 00:59:55,121 Speaker 3: eight till three o'clock in the morning, and you're back. 1308 00:59:55,001 --> 00:59:55,681 Speaker 4: In at eight o'clock. 1309 00:59:55,801 --> 00:59:59,401 Speaker 3: You're doing such long hours and it's so taxing on 1310 00:59:59,441 --> 01:00:03,401 Speaker 3: you in terms of your physical health, your mental health, 1311 01:00:03,521 --> 01:00:06,121 Speaker 3: your family life. I think by the end of my 1312 01:00:06,401 --> 01:00:08,361 Speaker 3: twelve years and my thirty years, I was I was 1313 01:00:08,401 --> 01:00:10,801 Speaker 3: ready to go, and that's fat. I think if someone 1314 01:00:10,841 --> 01:00:12,241 Speaker 3: said you've got to do another two years now, it 1315 01:00:12,281 --> 01:00:16,321 Speaker 3: might have broken me because I was like, I was like, actually, 1316 01:00:16,361 --> 01:00:17,761 Speaker 3: you do it. When you join the police. You know 1317 01:00:17,841 --> 01:00:19,841 Speaker 3: that this is you leave. So you've always got this 1318 01:00:19,921 --> 01:00:22,761 Speaker 3: fixed in your mind. I'm going. And when you're going, 1319 01:00:23,721 --> 01:00:27,041 Speaker 3: when you're missing your kid's birthday parties and your mates 1320 01:00:27,041 --> 01:00:29,121 Speaker 3: are going out and you can't go out, and your 1321 01:00:29,521 --> 01:00:32,361 Speaker 3: counseling theater tickets, and I'm not complaining. You do all 1322 01:00:32,361 --> 01:00:34,201 Speaker 3: that and you know it's part of the job. I 1323 01:00:34,201 --> 01:00:36,281 Speaker 3: think there's only so much you can do before you go. 1324 01:00:36,441 --> 01:00:39,161 Speaker 3: Do you know what I need? I need my life back. 1325 01:00:39,521 --> 01:00:41,001 Speaker 3: And at the end of my thirty years, I was 1326 01:00:41,041 --> 01:00:41,481 Speaker 3: ready to go. 1327 01:00:41,601 --> 01:00:43,601 Speaker 4: I was ready. I was ready to talk about I 1328 01:00:43,601 --> 01:00:44,081 Speaker 4: did ever. 1329 01:00:43,961 --> 01:00:46,721 Speaker 2: Affect your family life with all the like coming home 1330 01:00:46,881 --> 01:00:52,001 Speaker 2: stressed about, you know, situations and stuff that you'd seen. 1331 01:00:52,041 --> 01:00:54,241 Speaker 1: Did it take its toll on you a lot? 1332 01:00:54,761 --> 01:00:57,601 Speaker 3: I'm divorced so and I don't know. I don't know 1333 01:00:57,641 --> 01:00:59,841 Speaker 3: whether the first time around. I'm now with a new 1334 01:00:59,841 --> 01:01:04,441 Speaker 3: partner and got kids there and it's fine. But back 1335 01:01:04,521 --> 01:01:07,321 Speaker 3: then I would I be divorced? I was in the police, 1336 01:01:07,801 --> 01:01:10,361 Speaker 3: maybe not, And I think the police is there's a 1337 01:01:10,441 --> 01:01:12,361 Speaker 3: saying in the police you're not a proper detective unless 1338 01:01:12,361 --> 01:01:13,441 Speaker 3: you've got divorce behind you. 1339 01:01:13,481 --> 01:01:17,801 Speaker 4: And that's because most detectives. Most detectives are divorced. And 1340 01:01:18,241 --> 01:01:19,561 Speaker 4: I don't think it's coincidence. 1341 01:01:20,601 --> 01:01:26,001 Speaker 2: Wow, is there anything you think UH should change in 1342 01:01:26,041 --> 01:01:27,041 Speaker 2: the force now? 1343 01:01:28,601 --> 01:01:31,361 Speaker 1: Is there anything that they should go? Looking back? Looking 1344 01:01:31,561 --> 01:01:33,201 Speaker 1: when you're out and how are you being out for now? 1345 01:01:34,601 --> 01:01:35,281 Speaker 4: Three years? 1346 01:01:35,841 --> 01:01:38,161 Speaker 1: Is there any so? Are you seeing any change in 1347 01:01:38,201 --> 01:01:39,841 Speaker 1: the force that's for the good? 1348 01:01:43,281 --> 01:01:48,001 Speaker 4: That's not. 1349 01:01:48,441 --> 01:01:50,241 Speaker 3: For me when I when I look back. The worst 1350 01:01:50,281 --> 01:01:53,841 Speaker 3: thing about the police is the promotion system. And the 1351 01:01:54,001 --> 01:01:56,081 Speaker 3: reason people get head in the police and people get 1352 01:01:56,081 --> 01:01:57,641 Speaker 3: promoted isn't based. 1353 01:01:57,681 --> 01:01:58,641 Speaker 4: It's not a meritocracy. 1354 01:01:58,681 --> 01:02:00,521 Speaker 3: It's not They're not getting promoted because they're good at 1355 01:02:00,521 --> 01:02:04,161 Speaker 3: their job. They're getting promoted because they there are certain 1356 01:02:04,201 --> 01:02:06,441 Speaker 3: hoops that artificially formed. 1357 01:02:06,161 --> 01:02:07,001 Speaker 4: That they can jump through. 1358 01:02:07,041 --> 01:02:09,361 Speaker 3: They can write a good application form, they can sit 1359 01:02:09,401 --> 01:02:12,161 Speaker 3: and have an interview and say the right buzzwords. And 1360 01:02:12,481 --> 01:02:15,601 Speaker 3: the worst thing is they can they make change. And 1361 01:02:15,641 --> 01:02:18,361 Speaker 3: the police promotion system is about you making change. 1362 01:02:18,561 --> 01:02:20,281 Speaker 4: They're not making change because it needs to be. 1363 01:02:20,281 --> 01:02:23,121 Speaker 3: Made, but just because you can go on an interview 1364 01:02:23,121 --> 01:02:25,641 Speaker 3: and say, actually I made this change, did it work? 1365 01:02:25,841 --> 01:02:26,241 Speaker 4: Or I don't know. 1366 01:02:26,281 --> 01:02:29,561 Speaker 3: I've left, But once you've left everyone's picking up the 1367 01:02:29,561 --> 01:02:32,441 Speaker 3: pieces because it's all gone wrong, and it's just a 1368 01:02:32,521 --> 01:02:36,121 Speaker 3: continual within the police. They don't they won't leave anything alone, 1369 01:02:36,401 --> 01:02:38,761 Speaker 3: and they just keep making it worse. And I think 1370 01:02:38,761 --> 01:02:41,161 Speaker 3: that's the that's the worst thing about the police. 1371 01:02:40,921 --> 01:02:43,681 Speaker 4: Is the leadership. The leadership and the police is diabolical. 1372 01:02:44,121 --> 01:02:44,721 Speaker 4: Not all of them. 1373 01:02:44,881 --> 01:02:47,721 Speaker 3: I mean I was a leader, I was great, But no, 1374 01:02:47,761 --> 01:02:49,761 Speaker 3: not all of them. But there's an awful lot of 1375 01:02:50,201 --> 01:02:52,561 Speaker 3: people that're getting promoted for the wrong reasons and it's 1376 01:02:52,561 --> 01:02:55,321 Speaker 3: all about their own career and progressing their own career, 1377 01:02:55,601 --> 01:02:58,401 Speaker 3: and everybody under it, underneath it suffers. 1378 01:02:58,841 --> 01:03:00,721 Speaker 4: So we've got all these police officers that are trying 1379 01:03:00,761 --> 01:03:01,561 Speaker 4: to do the work. 1380 01:03:02,081 --> 01:03:05,041 Speaker 3: They're just getting messed around continually by the people up top. 1381 01:03:05,121 --> 01:03:07,841 Speaker 3: And it's the poor leadership, certainly in the Metro Polace 1382 01:03:07,841 --> 01:03:10,481 Speaker 3: where I worked, that has the biggest detrimental effect on 1383 01:03:10,801 --> 01:03:12,041 Speaker 3: what goes on on the ground level. 1384 01:03:12,281 --> 01:03:12,561 Speaker 4: Wow. 1385 01:03:13,361 --> 01:03:15,641 Speaker 2: Well, thanks so very much Dave for coming on, because 1386 01:03:15,721 --> 01:03:17,721 Speaker 2: and I'm glad you actually came on now because that 1387 01:03:17,841 --> 01:03:21,241 Speaker 2: has been one fucking interview. I must admit I've enjoyed it. 1388 01:03:21,721 --> 01:03:24,721 Speaker 2: I could talk to you for fucking ever, actually, but 1389 01:03:25,681 --> 01:03:29,481 Speaker 2: I definitely I put my hat off to you because 1390 01:03:29,481 --> 01:03:30,961 Speaker 2: I know what it's like in the police force in 1391 01:03:30,961 --> 01:03:34,281 Speaker 2: the UK, and as I said, and hard, especially because 1392 01:03:34,281 --> 01:03:37,121 Speaker 2: you've only got fucking truncheons and nothing else to defend 1393 01:03:37,121 --> 01:03:41,201 Speaker 2: yourselves with. But yeah, I want to just say thank 1394 01:03:41,241 --> 01:03:42,721 Speaker 2: you very much for coming on my show mate, and 1395 01:03:42,721 --> 01:03:44,881 Speaker 2: you've I can't wait to bring you an interview out. 1396 01:03:45,521 --> 01:03:47,601 Speaker 4: Oh thanks man, No, no, I really enjoyed it. Listen. 1397 01:03:48,001 --> 01:03:49,921 Speaker 3: I don't often get to talk about this because my 1398 01:03:49,921 --> 01:03:50,961 Speaker 3: friends are fairly bored.