WEBVTT - Part 2: The politics and pushback

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<v Speaker 1>This is part two of a two part episode that

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<v Speaker 1>we're bringing you recorded back in September of twenty twenty five,

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<v Speaker 1>just Aster Victoria introduced the bill that will give effect

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<v Speaker 1>to Australia's first ever treaty with First Nations people.

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<v Speaker 2>Indigenous leaders across the country have welcomed Victoria's first treaty.

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<v Speaker 2>The legislation will enshrine a democratically elected body for First

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<v Speaker 2>Peoples called Gillingwall that will be consulted on laws and

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<v Speaker 2>policies affecting Indigenous communities and now there are calls for

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<v Speaker 2>other states and territories to use the Victorian example as

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<v Speaker 2>a model to establish their own treaties. But there's also

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<v Speaker 2>predictably pushback, with critics calling it costly and divisive in

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<v Speaker 2>claims that echo the voice debate and state and territory

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<v Speaker 2>leaders across the country are walking away from previous promises

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<v Speaker 2>and commitments. Today, writer and seven AM co host Daniel James,

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<v Speaker 2>who was also one of the authors of the europe

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<v Speaker 2>Commission reports on whether Victoria's treaty marks a turning point

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<v Speaker 2>or an anomaly. Daniel Australia's first treaty was introduced into

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<v Speaker 2>Parliament this week in Victoria. How significant is this moment.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's the only time in the history of the

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<v Speaker 1>entire country that our treaty has been introduced into a

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<v Speaker 1>state or federal parliament. It has been on the back

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<v Speaker 1>of decades of work, but in a formal sense, in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of the actual process of getting this treaty to

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<v Speaker 1>this point, it's been at least six years. It has

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<v Speaker 1>survived two elections, it has gone through a pandemic, it

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<v Speaker 1>has gone through a very divisive referendum. But despite all that,

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<v Speaker 1>the First People Assembly, in its two iterations, have gotten

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<v Speaker 1>us to this point and it is a It was

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<v Speaker 1>a remarkable day for everyone that has either paid close

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<v Speaker 1>interest to this or been involved in it.

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<v Speaker 3>It didn't take long though, for criticism to appear in

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<v Speaker 3>some media outlets.

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<v Speaker 4>Any legislation is a slap in the face to the

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<v Speaker 4>majority of Victorians who less than two years ago voted

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<v Speaker 4>no to Labour's Voice to Parliament, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 3>On Sky we heard people start to say that the

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<v Speaker 3>Victorian government is quote pandering to a minority.

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<v Speaker 5>And as usual, Victoria is way out in front in

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<v Speaker 5>another example of pandering to a minority in favor of

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<v Speaker 5>the majority.

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<v Speaker 3>Singling out in particular things like the changes to the

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<v Speaker 3>curriculum that will be introduced and changes to place names.

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<v Speaker 5>Have a look at this barry Yip primary. Now you

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<v Speaker 5>say it apparently bar ray Yip. Now you've got Cuyim

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<v Speaker 5>primary in Packinham. It's pronounced Kuyim. You've got mini.

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<v Speaker 3>Did you expect that kind of commentary?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's sadly predictable because it's pretty much or they've

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<v Speaker 1>really gotten their kit in terms of being able to

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<v Speaker 1>attack processes like this. They are ostensibly a bunch of

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<v Speaker 1>one treeck ponies when it comes to the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>the First Nations people here being a minority. Yes, we

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<v Speaker 1>are a minority, but we are a minority that we're

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<v Speaker 1>here for fifty thousand years, and when colonialism came here,

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<v Speaker 1>we're a minority that had our land stolen, our waterways desecrated.

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<v Speaker 1>We were the result of policies of eradication, both formal

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<v Speaker 1>and informal. We were the victims of massacres. We were

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<v Speaker 1>the victims of disease and alcohol that was brought here.

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<v Speaker 1>The tremendous wealth that was created in this place through

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<v Speaker 1>things like the gold Rush, oboriginal people never saw even

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<v Speaker 1>though it was the plundering of their land that resulted

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<v Speaker 1>in that the billions of dollars that have been generated

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<v Speaker 1>through our waterways and land and skies, we've never seen

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<v Speaker 1>a cent of We were deprived of our rights, and

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<v Speaker 1>so yes, we are a minority, but we also are

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<v Speaker 1>the first peoples of this place, and this treaty and

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<v Speaker 1>the truth telling process you work before it is a

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<v Speaker 1>reckoning of that, and it shows a state that is

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<v Speaker 1>mature enough and bold enough to be able to deal

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<v Speaker 1>with these particular issues in a mature and forensic but

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<v Speaker 1>also incredibly nuanced way. And so the response from sections

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<v Speaker 1>of the media was entirely predictable, trying to conflate it

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<v Speaker 1>with things like the referendum, which is a completely different thing.

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<v Speaker 1>This is it, this is what's happening, and if people

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<v Speaker 1>want to conflate that with the referendum result for political purposes,

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<v Speaker 1>then we'll wave to them as we go over the

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<v Speaker 1>hill and down the road.

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<v Speaker 3>We even heard some voices saying that this treaty should

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<v Speaker 3>be put to a state referendum, much like the voice.

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<v Speaker 4>What this shows is that the elites in this society

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<v Speaker 4>don't care what you think. They don't care how you vote.

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<v Speaker 4>They've got their own ideology and they are going to

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<v Speaker 4>implement it anyway, and we've not only seen it with it.

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<v Speaker 3>You don't hear those types of comments about legislation in

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<v Speaker 3>other areas of Australian politics. So why do you think

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<v Speaker 3>that indigenous policy draws that kind of reaction Because I think.

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<v Speaker 1>That people conflate the referendum result with actual political mileage

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<v Speaker 1>and gain to be had at the expensive First Nations people.

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<v Speaker 1>It's only with black veils that were asked to have

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<v Speaker 1>referendums to put it to the vote. Well, this thing

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<v Speaker 1>has survived to state elections, which was a key platform

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<v Speaker 1>for the Andrews Labor government and did have bipartisan support

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<v Speaker 1>from the National and Liberal parties before they chickened out

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<v Speaker 1>of it and saw an opportunity after referendum to try

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<v Speaker 1>and gain some sort of political capital out of it.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think the last referendum we had in Victoria

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<v Speaker 1>was around daylight saving, So that's the that's the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of referendums we have at the state level here in Vittoria.

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<v Speaker 1>What would we have a referendum on this? And anyone

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<v Speaker 1>saying that the government is planning to have a referendum

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<v Speaker 1>to enshrine this in the constitution of the state. It's

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<v Speaker 1>just either mistaken or they are lying for local gain

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<v Speaker 1>or for clickbait.

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<v Speaker 3>And during the voice debate, the Prime Minister he avoided

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<v Speaker 3>talking about a national treaty. He said, this is something

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<v Speaker 3>that's happening at the state and territory level. Victoria is

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<v Speaker 3>now the first. But what are we seeing in regards

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<v Speaker 3>to other states and territories.

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<v Speaker 1>In terms of the treaty process. Victoria is years and

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<v Speaker 1>years ahead of what's happening in other states and territories.

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<v Speaker 1>We've seen attacks on treaty processes and truth telling processes

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<v Speaker 1>across the country, probably most brutally in Queenslane, on which

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<v Speaker 1>there was a truth telling process that was established but

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<v Speaker 1>was torn down. I think on the second day of

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<v Speaker 1>the Christal Fudy government in Queensland being in power.

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<v Speaker 6>The Prime Minister was warned on multiple occasions in the

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<v Speaker 6>last six months that if he continued down this path,

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<v Speaker 6>this is what would occur, this is the kind of

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<v Speaker 6>division that would occur. Well, I'm not going to make

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<v Speaker 6>the same mistake as the Prime minister.

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<v Speaker 1>The Albaniza government spent a tremendous amount of political capital

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<v Speaker 1>in its first term on the referendum, they haven't been

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<v Speaker 1>wanting to go near aberginal affairs in a truth telling

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<v Speaker 1>or treaty sense since then. But I do note that

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<v Speaker 1>the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Melandarry McCarthy has been in

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<v Speaker 1>Victoria this week and she is making more and more

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<v Speaker 1>solid sort of pronouncements around a national truth telling process,

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<v Speaker 1>which is encouraging because there is a void at the

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<v Speaker 1>national level. It's a case of Victoria going out on

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<v Speaker 1>its own and trying to improve out comfort for people here.

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<v Speaker 1>But what we've done by going through that process is

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<v Speaker 1>showing to the rest of the country that this can

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<v Speaker 1>be done, and it can be done in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that is inclusive and in a way that is looking

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<v Speaker 1>more to the future now than to the past. We

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<v Speaker 1>have through the truth telling process, he reckoned with our past.

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<v Speaker 1>We are now got our eyes firmly set on the future.

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<v Speaker 1>And that is what Tree is about, and that is

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<v Speaker 1>something that can be replicated at the national level if

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<v Speaker 1>the government chooses to do so.

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<v Speaker 3>Coming up.

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<v Speaker 2>Could the years of work in getting to this moment.

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<v Speaker 3>All be undone. You mentioned Queensland, where the treaty process

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<v Speaker 3>was axed after there was a change in government. So

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<v Speaker 3>is there a risk that if in Victoria, if Labor

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<v Speaker 3>loses office, that the treaty could be undone, especially given

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<v Speaker 3>that the Liberal Party in Victoria is against it.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>The difference here is that the Treaty Legislation Bill has

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<v Speaker 1>been introduced into the Parliament. It will be passed with

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<v Speaker 1>the Parliament. The Nationals and Liberals here make up a

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<v Speaker 1>very small minority in terms of oppositions when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to the numbers within the Parliament here, so it will

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<v Speaker 1>pass with the support of Greens and other minority groups

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<v Speaker 1>and so then it will have over a year to

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<v Speaker 1>run before the next election, in which case it has

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<v Speaker 1>the opportunity to ensron itself in some of the systems here,

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<v Speaker 1>to raise its own awareness through the community. But over

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<v Speaker 1>the next twelve months and a bit, it's going to

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<v Speaker 1>be really hard to put the toothpaste back into the

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<v Speaker 1>tube once this is out there. From my understanding, the

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<v Speaker 1>opposition here says they still oppose the process, but they

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<v Speaker 1>haven't made a commitment or made any noises about whether

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<v Speaker 1>they would tear it down if they got into government.

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<v Speaker 1>Reading the situation here, it would be something that would

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<v Speaker 1>be seen as incredibly pointless and reckless to do, given

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<v Speaker 1>that there's been such a process in place for such

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<v Speaker 1>a long time, and it's not a platform that you

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<v Speaker 1>want to run on here in Victoria. If you want

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<v Speaker 1>to run on a platform or if we're going to

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<v Speaker 1>tear down treaty, it's not going to get you too

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<v Speaker 1>many votes. We've got far bigger issues in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>the political landscape here around crime and cost of living

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<v Speaker 1>and things like that, where there are far more votes

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<v Speaker 1>to be mine as an opposition than something like treaty.

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<v Speaker 3>And so once we see treaty in action, Daniel, how

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<v Speaker 3>do you think that the experience of First Nations people

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<v Speaker 3>in Victoria is going to change?

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<v Speaker 1>Probably the most meaningful change in terms of the broader

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<v Speaker 1>community will be through things like changes to the Victorian

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<v Speaker 1>school curriculum. We have a report now truths be told

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<v Speaker 1>through the Oral Justice Commission, which is now part of

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<v Speaker 1>the official public Record, which will be used as a

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<v Speaker 1>resource now to redevelop the curriculum to tell the true

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<v Speaker 1>history of this place. There's going to be an ongoing

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<v Speaker 1>truth telling process established, which means that we are able

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<v Speaker 1>to recognize patterns and speak truth to power on a

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<v Speaker 1>regular basis about what actually is happening here and how

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<v Speaker 1>the colonial project is still having that mental impacts on

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<v Speaker 1>First Nations people. There will be the establishment of oversight institutions.

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<v Speaker 1>The treaty allows First Nations people for the first time

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<v Speaker 1>as equals with the Crown to negotiate, have input and

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<v Speaker 1>talk to laws and policies that will impact First Nations people.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're not retrofitting systems or policies or ideas. We

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<v Speaker 1>are there at the actual point that some of these

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<v Speaker 1>systems and policies are either reformed or created. There will

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<v Speaker 1>be renaming conventions across the state, and any sort of

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<v Speaker 1>public building or piece of land that is owned by

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<v Speaker 1>the state could be renamed after a process with First

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<v Speaker 1>Nations people to just get the flavor and language of

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<v Speaker 1>First Nations people back into this land after it's been

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<v Speaker 1>missing for so long, and there will be frameworks to

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<v Speaker 1>negotiate further treaties. I think the thing that people need

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<v Speaker 1>to realize is that the Treaty itself is a living,

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<v Speaker 1>breathing document. It's not something that is etched in stone.

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<v Speaker 1>Is a process that will continue to evolve as a

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<v Speaker 1>society and community evolves. So there's a whole truckload of

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<v Speaker 1>things ruby that will be part of this process over

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<v Speaker 1>the future generations that will not only have enrich the

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<v Speaker 1>lives of First Nations people, it will rich the lives

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<v Speaker 1>of the broader community. I think an important thing to

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<v Speaker 1>also note about the treaty too, is that there's no

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<v Speaker 1>commercial in confidence here. What you see in the treaty

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<v Speaker 1>is laid out for everyone to see. It is something

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<v Speaker 1>that has been negotiated between the First People's Assembly and

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<v Speaker 1>Victorian government and the treaty now is the document where

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<v Speaker 1>everyone can see that there are no hidden clauses, no

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<v Speaker 1>hidden agendas. People aren't coming after people's homes or real

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<v Speaker 1>estate or businesses. It is all laid out in black

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<v Speaker 1>and white there, I say in the treaty document itself.

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<v Speaker 3>And for people who have fought for decades to get

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<v Speaker 3>to this point, the weight of this moment must be heavy.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you think that there is a sense of pressure

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<v Speaker 3>now that you know this needs to deliver real change.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. If there's any concern about whether the First People,

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<v Speaker 1>susceemly and Aboriginal people in Victoria will now rest on

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<v Speaker 1>our laurels that we now have this treaty process, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>here to ease your concerns around that. The weight of

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<v Speaker 1>our own history, the weight of the people who have

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<v Speaker 1>fought for things like this and that we've lost along

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<v Speaker 1>the way, the weight of their memory is something that

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<v Speaker 1>will push us forward far more than any sort of

0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:45.240
<v Speaker 1>immediate political dynamic in this state. I was actually surprised

0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.079
<v Speaker 1>by how much I was actually moved by this. It

0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:53.040
<v Speaker 1>was something that I intellectually was prepared for, something that

0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.320
<v Speaker 1>I had had a little bit of a role in

0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.000
<v Speaker 1>bringing to life in a very very very small way.

0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:00.199
<v Speaker 1>But it wasn't until a couple of hours I was

0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 1>after the whole thing was introduced into the Parliament that

0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.480
<v Speaker 1>the gravity of what has happened here kind of really

0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.280
<v Speaker 1>hit me for the first time. And what the treaty

0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.200
<v Speaker 1>now does is recognize that everyone that lives in this

0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:16.040
<v Speaker 1>place that we call Victoria now should have their own

0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:21.920
<v Speaker 1>relationship with the land and the customs here. Sure, our

0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 1>involvement Aboriginal people's relationship with the land and its waterways

0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.360
<v Speaker 1>and its skies is unique, but it's now an opportunity

0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.720
<v Speaker 1>now for every person that is fortunate enough to live

0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 1>in this place to develop their own relationship with the

0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 1>land and the waters at the invitation of First Nations

0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 1>people and if you want to look at that in

0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:46.120
<v Speaker 1>sort of practical ways, there are whole communities in Victoria

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.960
<v Speaker 1>and particularly in Malbourne now that from my point of view,

0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.200
<v Speaker 1>I kind of see that a court between between worlds

0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:55.640
<v Speaker 1>that they don't belong to one part of society. They

0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:59.720
<v Speaker 1>are trying to find their way towards acceptance and find

0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.960
<v Speaker 1>a place of belonging in this community. Well, without being

0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:08.440
<v Speaker 1>too grandiose about it, treaty is one pathway for people

0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:11.200
<v Speaker 1>to find themselves in this state and the place they live.

0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.640
<v Speaker 1>That has been looked after for millennia by First Nations people,

0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:18.560
<v Speaker 1>and that can be done together with First Nations people.

0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.080
<v Speaker 3>Well, Daniel, thank you so much.

0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 2>For your time.

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Ruby. I'm Daniel James. Seven am. We'll be back

0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.640
<v Speaker 1>tomorrow with an episode about Daniel Duggant, the former US

0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 1>Marine pilot turned Australian citizen, now facing extradition to the

0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:46.920
<v Speaker 1>United States over allegations he helped train Chinese military pilots.

0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.040
<v Speaker 7>If this can happen to Dan, it can happen to

0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.600
<v Speaker 7>a lot of other Australians. If we put Australians in

0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.960
<v Speaker 7>jeopardy and are prepared to hand them acrosst foreign legal

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.240
<v Speaker 7>system for things that they did a long time ago

0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.840
<v Speaker 7>that weren't crimes here. You know, it opens a floodgate

0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.880
<v Speaker 7>for foreign governments to be able to reach into our

0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 7>legal system and interfere with it.

0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:13.600
<v Speaker 1>We unpack our dug and ended up at the center

0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 1>of a case now stretches from Tasmania to South Africa,

0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.440
<v Speaker 1>China and Washington. See you then,