Speaker 1: This is part two of a two part episode that
Speaker 1: we're bringing you recorded back in September of twenty twenty five,
Speaker 1: just Aster Victoria introduced the bill that will give effect
Speaker 1: to Australia's first ever treaty with First Nations people.
Speaker 2: Indigenous leaders across the country have welcomed Victoria's first treaty.
Speaker 2: The legislation will enshrine a democratically elected body for First
Speaker 2: Peoples called Gillingwall that will be consulted on laws and
Speaker 2: policies affecting Indigenous communities and now there are calls for
Speaker 2: other states and territories to use the Victorian example as
Speaker 2: a model to establish their own treaties. But there's also
Speaker 2: predictably pushback, with critics calling it costly and divisive in
Speaker 2: claims that echo the voice debate and state and territory
Speaker 2: leaders across the country are walking away from previous promises
Speaker 2: and commitments. Today, writer and seven AM co host Daniel James,
Speaker 2: who was also one of the authors of the europe
Speaker 2: Commission reports on whether Victoria's treaty marks a turning point
Speaker 2: or an anomaly. Daniel Australia's first treaty was introduced into
Speaker 2: Parliament this week in Victoria. How significant is this moment.
Speaker 1: Well, it's the only time in the history of the
Speaker 1: entire country that our treaty has been introduced into a
Speaker 1: state or federal parliament. It has been on the back
Speaker 1: of decades of work, but in a formal sense, in
Speaker 1: terms of the actual process of getting this treaty to
Speaker 1: this point, it's been at least six years. It has
Speaker 1: survived two elections, it has gone through a pandemic, it
Speaker 1: has gone through a very divisive referendum. But despite all that,
Speaker 1: the First People Assembly, in its two iterations, have gotten
Speaker 1: us to this point and it is a It was
Speaker 1: a remarkable day for everyone that has either paid close
Speaker 1: interest to this or been involved in it.
Speaker 3: It didn't take long though, for criticism to appear in
Speaker 3: some media outlets.
Speaker 4: Any legislation is a slap in the face to the
Speaker 4: majority of Victorians who less than two years ago voted
Speaker 4: no to Labour's Voice to Parliament, isn't it.
Speaker 3: On Sky we heard people start to say that the
Speaker 3: Victorian government is quote pandering to a minority.
Speaker 5: And as usual, Victoria is way out in front in
Speaker 5: another example of pandering to a minority in favor of
Speaker 5: the majority.
Speaker 3: Singling out in particular things like the changes to the
Speaker 3: curriculum that will be introduced and changes to place names.
Speaker 5: Have a look at this barry Yip primary. Now you
Speaker 5: say it apparently bar ray Yip. Now you've got Cuyim
Speaker 5: primary in Packinham. It's pronounced Kuyim. You've got mini.
Speaker 3: Did you expect that kind of commentary?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sadly predictable because it's pretty much or they've
Speaker 1: really gotten their kit in terms of being able to
Speaker 1: attack processes like this. They are ostensibly a bunch of
Speaker 1: one treeck ponies when it comes to the idea of
Speaker 1: the First Nations people here being a minority. Yes, we
Speaker 1: are a minority, but we are a minority that we're
Speaker 1: here for fifty thousand years, and when colonialism came here,
Speaker 1: we're a minority that had our land stolen, our waterways desecrated.
Speaker 1: We were the result of policies of eradication, both formal
Speaker 1: and informal. We were the victims of massacres. We were
Speaker 1: the victims of disease and alcohol that was brought here.
Speaker 1: The tremendous wealth that was created in this place through
Speaker 1: things like the gold Rush, oboriginal people never saw even
Speaker 1: though it was the plundering of their land that resulted
Speaker 1: in that the billions of dollars that have been generated
Speaker 1: through our waterways and land and skies, we've never seen
Speaker 1: a cent of We were deprived of our rights, and
Speaker 1: so yes, we are a minority, but we also are
Speaker 1: the first peoples of this place, and this treaty and
Speaker 1: the truth telling process you work before it is a
Speaker 1: reckoning of that, and it shows a state that is
Speaker 1: mature enough and bold enough to be able to deal
Speaker 1: with these particular issues in a mature and forensic but
Speaker 1: also incredibly nuanced way. And so the response from sections
Speaker 1: of the media was entirely predictable, trying to conflate it
Speaker 1: with things like the referendum, which is a completely different thing.
Speaker 1: This is it, this is what's happening, and if people
Speaker 1: want to conflate that with the referendum result for political purposes,
Speaker 1: then we'll wave to them as we go over the
Speaker 1: hill and down the road.
Speaker 3: We even heard some voices saying that this treaty should
Speaker 3: be put to a state referendum, much like the voice.
Speaker 4: What this shows is that the elites in this society
Speaker 4: don't care what you think. They don't care how you vote.
Speaker 4: They've got their own ideology and they are going to
Speaker 4: implement it anyway, and we've not only seen it with it.
Speaker 3: You don't hear those types of comments about legislation in
Speaker 3: other areas of Australian politics. So why do you think
Speaker 3: that indigenous policy draws that kind of reaction Because I think.
Speaker 1: That people conflate the referendum result with actual political mileage
Speaker 1: and gain to be had at the expensive First Nations people.
Speaker 1: It's only with black veils that were asked to have
Speaker 1: referendums to put it to the vote. Well, this thing
Speaker 1: has survived to state elections, which was a key platform
Speaker 1: for the Andrews Labor government and did have bipartisan support
Speaker 1: from the National and Liberal parties before they chickened out
Speaker 1: of it and saw an opportunity after referendum to try
Speaker 1: and gain some sort of political capital out of it.
Speaker 1: But I think the last referendum we had in Victoria
Speaker 1: was around daylight saving, So that's the that's the kind
Speaker 1: of referendums we have at the state level here in Vittoria.
Speaker 1: What would we have a referendum on this? And anyone
Speaker 1: saying that the government is planning to have a referendum
Speaker 1: to enshrine this in the constitution of the state. It's
Speaker 1: just either mistaken or they are lying for local gain
Speaker 1: or for clickbait.
Speaker 3: And during the voice debate, the Prime Minister he avoided
Speaker 3: talking about a national treaty. He said, this is something
Speaker 3: that's happening at the state and territory level. Victoria is
Speaker 3: now the first. But what are we seeing in regards
Speaker 3: to other states and territories.
Speaker 1: In terms of the treaty process. Victoria is years and
Speaker 1: years ahead of what's happening in other states and territories.
Speaker 1: We've seen attacks on treaty processes and truth telling processes
Speaker 1: across the country, probably most brutally in Queenslane, on which
Speaker 1: there was a truth telling process that was established but
Speaker 1: was torn down. I think on the second day of
Speaker 1: the Christal Fudy government in Queensland being in power.
Speaker 6: The Prime Minister was warned on multiple occasions in the
Speaker 6: last six months that if he continued down this path,
Speaker 6: this is what would occur, this is the kind of
Speaker 6: division that would occur. Well, I'm not going to make
Speaker 6: the same mistake as the Prime minister.
Speaker 1: The Albaniza government spent a tremendous amount of political capital
Speaker 1: in its first term on the referendum, they haven't been
Speaker 1: wanting to go near aberginal affairs in a truth telling
Speaker 1: or treaty sense since then. But I do note that
Speaker 1: the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Melandarry McCarthy has been in
Speaker 1: Victoria this week and she is making more and more
Speaker 1: solid sort of pronouncements around a national truth telling process,
Speaker 1: which is encouraging because there is a void at the
Speaker 1: national level. It's a case of Victoria going out on
Speaker 1: its own and trying to improve out comfort for people here.
Speaker 1: But what we've done by going through that process is
Speaker 1: showing to the rest of the country that this can
Speaker 1: be done, and it can be done in a way
Speaker 1: that is inclusive and in a way that is looking
Speaker 1: more to the future now than to the past. We
Speaker 1: have through the truth telling process, he reckoned with our past.
Speaker 1: We are now got our eyes firmly set on the future.
Speaker 1: And that is what Tree is about, and that is
Speaker 1: something that can be replicated at the national level if
Speaker 1: the government chooses to do so.
Speaker 3: Coming up.
Speaker 2: Could the years of work in getting to this moment.
Speaker 3: All be undone. You mentioned Queensland, where the treaty process
Speaker 3: was axed after there was a change in government. So
Speaker 3: is there a risk that if in Victoria, if Labor
Speaker 3: loses office, that the treaty could be undone, especially given
Speaker 3: that the Liberal Party in Victoria is against it.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The difference here is that the Treaty Legislation Bill has
Speaker 1: been introduced into the Parliament. It will be passed with
Speaker 1: the Parliament. The Nationals and Liberals here make up a
Speaker 1: very small minority in terms of oppositions when it comes
Speaker 1: to the numbers within the Parliament here, so it will
Speaker 1: pass with the support of Greens and other minority groups
Speaker 1: and so then it will have over a year to
Speaker 1: run before the next election, in which case it has
Speaker 1: the opportunity to ensron itself in some of the systems here,
Speaker 1: to raise its own awareness through the community. But over
Speaker 1: the next twelve months and a bit, it's going to
Speaker 1: be really hard to put the toothpaste back into the
Speaker 1: tube once this is out there. From my understanding, the
Speaker 1: opposition here says they still oppose the process, but they
Speaker 1: haven't made a commitment or made any noises about whether
Speaker 1: they would tear it down if they got into government.
Speaker 1: Reading the situation here, it would be something that would
Speaker 1: be seen as incredibly pointless and reckless to do, given
Speaker 1: that there's been such a process in place for such
Speaker 1: a long time, and it's not a platform that you
Speaker 1: want to run on here in Victoria. If you want
Speaker 1: to run on a platform or if we're going to
Speaker 1: tear down treaty, it's not going to get you too
Speaker 1: many votes. We've got far bigger issues in terms of
Speaker 1: the political landscape here around crime and cost of living
Speaker 1: and things like that, where there are far more votes
Speaker 1: to be mine as an opposition than something like treaty.
Speaker 3: And so once we see treaty in action, Daniel, how
Speaker 3: do you think that the experience of First Nations people
Speaker 3: in Victoria is going to change?
Speaker 1: Probably the most meaningful change in terms of the broader
Speaker 1: community will be through things like changes to the Victorian
Speaker 1: school curriculum. We have a report now truths be told
Speaker 1: through the Oral Justice Commission, which is now part of
Speaker 1: the official public Record, which will be used as a
Speaker 1: resource now to redevelop the curriculum to tell the true
Speaker 1: history of this place. There's going to be an ongoing
Speaker 1: truth telling process established, which means that we are able
Speaker 1: to recognize patterns and speak truth to power on a
Speaker 1: regular basis about what actually is happening here and how
Speaker 1: the colonial project is still having that mental impacts on
Speaker 1: First Nations people. There will be the establishment of oversight institutions.
Speaker 1: The treaty allows First Nations people for the first time
Speaker 1: as equals with the Crown to negotiate, have input and
Speaker 1: talk to laws and policies that will impact First Nations people.
Speaker 1: So we're not retrofitting systems or policies or ideas. We
Speaker 1: are there at the actual point that some of these
Speaker 1: systems and policies are either reformed or created. There will
Speaker 1: be renaming conventions across the state, and any sort of
Speaker 1: public building or piece of land that is owned by
Speaker 1: the state could be renamed after a process with First
Speaker 1: Nations people to just get the flavor and language of
Speaker 1: First Nations people back into this land after it's been
Speaker 1: missing for so long, and there will be frameworks to
Speaker 1: negotiate further treaties. I think the thing that people need
Speaker 1: to realize is that the Treaty itself is a living,
Speaker 1: breathing document. It's not something that is etched in stone.
Speaker 1: Is a process that will continue to evolve as a
Speaker 1: society and community evolves. So there's a whole truckload of
Speaker 1: things ruby that will be part of this process over
Speaker 1: the future generations that will not only have enrich the
Speaker 1: lives of First Nations people, it will rich the lives
Speaker 1: of the broader community. I think an important thing to
Speaker 1: also note about the treaty too, is that there's no
Speaker 1: commercial in confidence here. What you see in the treaty
Speaker 1: is laid out for everyone to see. It is something
Speaker 1: that has been negotiated between the First People's Assembly and
Speaker 1: Victorian government and the treaty now is the document where
Speaker 1: everyone can see that there are no hidden clauses, no
Speaker 1: hidden agendas. People aren't coming after people's homes or real
Speaker 1: estate or businesses. It is all laid out in black
Speaker 1: and white there, I say in the treaty document itself.
Speaker 3: And for people who have fought for decades to get
Speaker 3: to this point, the weight of this moment must be heavy.
Speaker 3: Do you think that there is a sense of pressure
Speaker 3: now that you know this needs to deliver real change.
Speaker 1: Yeah. If there's any concern about whether the First People,
Speaker 1: susceemly and Aboriginal people in Victoria will now rest on
Speaker 1: our laurels that we now have this treaty process, I'm
Speaker 1: here to ease your concerns around that. The weight of
Speaker 1: our own history, the weight of the people who have
Speaker 1: fought for things like this and that we've lost along
Speaker 1: the way, the weight of their memory is something that
Speaker 1: will push us forward far more than any sort of
Speaker 1: immediate political dynamic in this state. I was actually surprised
Speaker 1: by how much I was actually moved by this. It
Speaker 1: was something that I intellectually was prepared for, something that
Speaker 1: I had had a little bit of a role in
Speaker 1: bringing to life in a very very very small way.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't until a couple of hours I was
Speaker 1: after the whole thing was introduced into the Parliament that
Speaker 1: the gravity of what has happened here kind of really
Speaker 1: hit me for the first time. And what the treaty
Speaker 1: now does is recognize that everyone that lives in this
Speaker 1: place that we call Victoria now should have their own
Speaker 1: relationship with the land and the customs here. Sure, our
Speaker 1: involvement Aboriginal people's relationship with the land and its waterways
Speaker 1: and its skies is unique, but it's now an opportunity
Speaker 1: now for every person that is fortunate enough to live
Speaker 1: in this place to develop their own relationship with the
Speaker 1: land and the waters at the invitation of First Nations
Speaker 1: people and if you want to look at that in
Speaker 1: sort of practical ways, there are whole communities in Victoria
Speaker 1: and particularly in Malbourne now that from my point of view,
Speaker 1: I kind of see that a court between between worlds
Speaker 1: that they don't belong to one part of society. They
Speaker 1: are trying to find their way towards acceptance and find
Speaker 1: a place of belonging in this community. Well, without being
Speaker 1: too grandiose about it, treaty is one pathway for people
Speaker 1: to find themselves in this state and the place they live.
Speaker 1: That has been looked after for millennia by First Nations people,
Speaker 1: and that can be done together with First Nations people.
Speaker 3: Well, Daniel, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: For your time.
Speaker 1: Thanks Ruby. I'm Daniel James. Seven am. We'll be back
Speaker 1: tomorrow with an episode about Daniel Duggant, the former US
Speaker 1: Marine pilot turned Australian citizen, now facing extradition to the
Speaker 1: United States over allegations he helped train Chinese military pilots.
Speaker 7: If this can happen to Dan, it can happen to
Speaker 7: a lot of other Australians. If we put Australians in
Speaker 7: jeopardy and are prepared to hand them acrosst foreign legal
Speaker 7: system for things that they did a long time ago
Speaker 7: that weren't crimes here. You know, it opens a floodgate
Speaker 7: for foreign governments to be able to reach into our
Speaker 7: legal system and interfere with it.
Speaker 1: We unpack our dug and ended up at the center
Speaker 1: of a case now stretches from Tasmania to South Africa,
Speaker 1: China and Washington. See you then,