Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Today there's
Speaker 1: a listener warning out. The subject matter is going to
Speaker 1: be fairly distressing. We're going to be talking about domestic
Speaker 1: and family violence, which has been very prominent in the
Speaker 1: media of recent times. There's hardly a week that goes
Speaker 1: by when someone hasn't been killed as a result of
Speaker 1: domestic and family violence. As time things are stopped. Today,
Speaker 1: we're speaking to Lloyd and Sue Clark. They're the parents
Speaker 1: of Hannah Clarke, who was murdered along with her three
Speaker 1: children are Leah who is six years old, Leana four
Speaker 1: years old, and Tray three years old when they were
Speaker 1: dousing petrol and set alight on the nine eighth of
Speaker 1: February twenty twenty. The perpetrator of this horrendous crime was
Speaker 1: Raum Baxter, Hannah's husband and the father of the three children.
Speaker 1: It was a crime that shook the nation and sparked
Speaker 1: a national debate about domestic violence. Well, today we've got
Speaker 1: Lloyd and Sue Clark in the studio with us, and
Speaker 1: we're going to sit down and talk about the lead
Speaker 1: up to what occurred to their family and how they're
Speaker 1: trying to make things different, bringing in new legislation, changing
Speaker 1: things so this type of thing doesn't happen. We need
Speaker 1: to talk about domestic and family violence, and Lloyd and
Speaker 1: Sue Clark are people that have been touched on it
Speaker 1: in the most awful of ways. Sue and Lloyd Clark,
Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's a pleasure, guys. And I think the
Speaker 1: first time we met was at that charity function Small
Speaker 1: Steps for Hannah. I've got to say it was an
Speaker 1: impressive turnout, a lot of people there supporting what you
Speaker 1: were doing for the small steps for Hannah. I sat
Speaker 1: beside you guys during the event at the table, and
Speaker 1: I got to say when I came away from that event,
Speaker 1: I was full of mixed emotions. I just had a
Speaker 1: overwhelming sense of sadness of what you guys had gone through,
Speaker 1: talking to you and just understanding the impact that's had
Speaker 1: on you. But I was also inspired. I was inspired
Speaker 1: by the courageous way that you guys have moved forward
Speaker 1: from what happened, never forgetting, but moving forward and trying
Speaker 1: to make a difference. Where do you get the strength
Speaker 1: because you're better people than I am. I don't know
Speaker 1: how I would tape after going through what you guys
Speaker 1: have gone through.
Speaker 3: Family, I think Lloyd and Night. I think Lloyd gives
Speaker 3: me strength. I give him strength. And we still have
Speaker 3: our son and four beautiful grandsons, so you've got to
Speaker 3: be there for them. We felt our world collapsed, and
Speaker 3: then you think about it, well.
Speaker 2: It's not just us.
Speaker 3: Our son's world collapsed too, and we all need to
Speaker 3: be there for each other. And I think and I
Speaker 3: think Hannah's still with us, pushing. She always was a
Speaker 3: bit of a puppeteer, and I think she's up there
Speaker 3: directing things.
Speaker 1: She's still controlling that, I think.
Speaker 4: So yeah, definitely, yeah, But I mean we're just everyday Australians,
Speaker 4: LU call Australians who unfortunately we're given a platform you
Speaker 4: know that no one would want. We never wanted it.
Speaker 4: But I just saw something there that well held the
Speaker 4: whole world scene this, This is absolutely shocking. Who does this?
Speaker 4: Who who is a sort of person does that to
Speaker 4: their own children? You know. So we thought we need
Speaker 4: to do something. And all these professionals were coming out
Speaker 4: and saying, oh, it's a typical coercive control, and I said,
Speaker 4: what's coers of control? What the hell are they talking about?
Speaker 4: We didn't know anything about it. And then you know,
Speaker 4: it was going, oh, well we need to change a
Speaker 4: coercive control. Oh it's like a handbook, they're saying. So
Speaker 4: that's when well, we really need to start a conversation.
Speaker 4: Let's start talking, let's get people moving, let's try and
Speaker 4: get a move and do something. And yeah, we thought,
Speaker 4: well we'll do let's make a foundation and we'll start
Speaker 4: raising money and we'll maybe do some education, but that
Speaker 4: took a while to get come around.
Speaker 1: And that's and we're going to talk about that in detail,
Speaker 1: what you're doing, because it's impressive and such a testament
Speaker 1: to the hammer and the children that they're never going
Speaker 1: to be forgotten because of what you guys are doing.
Speaker 1: But you made the point your average sort of knock
Speaker 1: about Australians. I'm looking at that function and I think
Speaker 1: you actually said that to me. You said, look, we
Speaker 1: don't know why we're thrust into this. You're the center
Speaker 1: of attention of the huge function. There was politicians coming up.
Speaker 4: I think the general attention seekers.
Speaker 1: Well that's a sense I got, Like you're sitting there
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking you two would just prefer to be
Speaker 1: at the local pub, just having a quiet meal on
Speaker 1: your own, rather than being the center of attention. But
Speaker 1: you put yourself out there, and look, I've got to
Speaker 1: say it's remarkable and I never cease to be amazed
Speaker 1: with people that I came across during my career as
Speaker 1: a homicide detective. But people I sit down in the
Speaker 1: podcast because I think, you how do you get yourself
Speaker 1: out of bed the next day after something like this? Happens.
Speaker 1: But so you said family, and I suppose that brings
Speaker 1: it on. You can't just forget the rest of the people.
Speaker 2: That's right to me, that's selfish.
Speaker 3: I know I'm I cry every day, but I think
Speaker 3: you need to be there for the rest of the family.
Speaker 2: Everyone. We all need each other's support.
Speaker 1: Really, I see with you two still being together because
Speaker 1: I've seen trauma and things in family before, and you
Speaker 1: made the point so that I'm there there for Lloyd.
Speaker 1: Lloyd's there for me. Sometimes I would imagine you're in
Speaker 1: the dark place and Lloyd's got to be the strength,
Speaker 1: and then vice versas. Is that how it plays out?
Speaker 3: It does, and we both understand. You know, I'll say loud,
Speaker 3: yeah it's not a good day to day, and he
Speaker 3: gets it, and he just lets me be, talks to
Speaker 3: me if I want to talk, or and he doesn't
Speaker 3: look at me weird when I just cry for random reason.
Speaker 1: I think that's understandable. I'll say, and I don't use
Speaker 1: the word beautiful very often on I catch killers podcast,
Speaker 1: but I think your relationship is beautiful. And I'm not
Speaker 1: saying you're beautiful, Lloyd.
Speaker 2: We can only take it take it so far.
Speaker 1: But what I saw that day, that you were there
Speaker 1: supporting each other and that it's you know, it was
Speaker 1: an inspiration. And I've seen some ship in my life,
Speaker 1: but that, to me, I thought, Wow, impressive people.
Speaker 4: So I think the other thing too, Gary. It was
Speaker 4: just before COVID too.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.
Speaker 4: So a couple of weeks out, all of a sudden,
Speaker 4: the whole world is just shut down. We couldn't go
Speaker 4: anywhere where. Everyone had to be locked indoors. So in
Speaker 4: a way, that gave us time to grieve. We could
Speaker 4: do what we wanted to do. What we did every
Speaker 4: day would get up of a morning, we had a
Speaker 4: couple of dogs and get the dogs and go walk.
Speaker 4: We do a couple of k's and we just went
Speaker 4: further and further and that's all. And we would walk, talk,
Speaker 4: cry why is this happening? What are we going to do?
Speaker 4: All those questions? We just sorted it out in the bush,
Speaker 4: spotting Koala's wallaby here and there and having the dogs
Speaker 4: with us. You know, so that gave us a bit
Speaker 4: of solid I had no pressure. People couldn't come around
Speaker 4: because everyone was locked down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, because I did get the
Speaker 1: sense that you'd been thrusty put on this platform, and
Speaker 1: then that would have been the recheck that you could
Speaker 1: just step away and he heal yourself. And it's interesting
Speaker 1: that you say just doing the little thing getting up
Speaker 1: each day, because I speak to people that suffer post
Speaker 1: aumatic stress, whether it be military or police, and the
Speaker 1: narrative seems to be, you've got to just keep doing something.
Speaker 1: You've got to start, you've got to get up in
Speaker 1: the morning, you've got to get a routine, You've got
Speaker 1: to just keep stepping forward. Is that the sort of
Speaker 1: thing that you guys have.
Speaker 3: Definitely, Yeah, it does help to keep that that routine.
Speaker 4: Nothing too Bob Atkinson. I got in touch with us,
Speaker 4: but well very early in the piece, and I want
Speaker 4: to know where you could help, and he said, look,
Speaker 4: I've got this book. Can I give you this book
Speaker 4: to read? And it was about trauma and it was
Speaker 4: very good. It's sort of put a few things in
Speaker 4: perspective for me, you know, learning about how people moved
Speaker 4: on from their kids being killed by gang members and
Speaker 4: you know whatever sort So I thought, well, yes, you've
Speaker 4: got to be like John Wayne, You've actually just got
Speaker 4: to get up, pack your bag up, get on that
Speaker 4: horse and start riding and you know, continue on. You
Speaker 4: don't get over it, but you've got to move on.
Speaker 4: You can't just sit there in a hole and just think, well,
Speaker 4: life's doom and gloom. Let's try and make it a
Speaker 4: better world. Our wills collapse, but let's try and make
Speaker 4: that it doesn't happen to anyone else. And the sad
Speaker 4: thing was twelve months later Kelly Wilkinson went nearly the
Speaker 4: same way. So we sort of.
Speaker 1: Copycat it it must, and we've just come from one
Speaker 1: that was on the north coast of New South Wales
Speaker 1: recent times with the father's killed a two year old child.
Speaker 1: I would suggest every time you hear that it would
Speaker 1: reopen the pain again.
Speaker 2: It doesn't. I cry every time and sadly it just
Speaker 2: happens too often.
Speaker 3: Way too often at the moment, but a woman every
Speaker 3: four days I need.
Speaker 4: To talk about it.
Speaker 1: Well. I think we now as a society and it
Speaker 1: takes a Politicians react to the voice of the people,
Speaker 1: sometimes a bit slowly, but I think they're understanding now.
Speaker 1: The media have got hold of it. Enough is enough
Speaker 1: with what's going on with domestic and family violence. We've
Speaker 1: got a circumvent. So we'll we'll talk during this podcast
Speaker 1: about your thoughts on the way that can be done,
Speaker 1: and we'll have an interesting discussion there. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: Hannah and the children first of all, because I think
Speaker 1: they haven't been forgotten. They shouldn't be forgotten. Now, I've
Speaker 1: got to say, in preparing for this and knowing everything
Speaker 1: that I do about the matter, that Hannah was an
Speaker 1: impressive person.
Speaker 3: She was she had a smile that lit up a room,
Speaker 3: and she would put her troubles behind and put everyone
Speaker 3: else's in front. She was always there to help people
Speaker 3: if she could, and people didn't know what was happening
Speaker 3: with her. I knew a fair amount, and as it
Speaker 3: got worse, I knew more because she would ring me
Speaker 3: up and she'd just had to get it off a
Speaker 3: chest and vent to somebody, and which made it very
Speaker 3: difficult for me to then be civil when I would
Speaker 3: have to face him. But yeah, Hannah. People loved her,
Speaker 3: and we were surprised after she passed how many people
Speaker 3: came up to us and said, oh, Hannah served me,
Speaker 3: and she at athlete's foot. Hannah sold me shoes. I'll
Speaker 3: never forget her. She was so bubbly and she wasn't perfect.
Speaker 1: None of us are, so none of us are. But
Speaker 1: that comes across in the way that she conducted herself.
Speaker 1: So did you see that in her personality when she
Speaker 1: was a younger child like that? Oh? Yes, she always shining.
Speaker 2: Watch me, watch me, yea.
Speaker 4: I loved the stage, any stage were doing a cartwheel
Speaker 4: or a twirl.
Speaker 2: And yeah yeah.
Speaker 4: And the kids, they were just wonderful. They had great futures.
Speaker 1: Break it down with the kids three, four and six,
Speaker 1: they start to show their personalities. Oh yeah, what do
Speaker 1: we got? Break them down?
Speaker 3: Ali was a real She was sassy, very sasy, very sassy,
Speaker 3: like a grandma. Her and I now she would have
Speaker 3: been eleven now we have been having some good arguments.
Speaker 1: She was.
Speaker 3: One day we were in the park and there was
Speaker 3: it was a stork. It was in the distance, and
Speaker 3: she said to me, there is a plover and I said,
Speaker 3: I don't think it is hun I reckon.
Speaker 1: I'd know, Nannie, she's checking you on.
Speaker 3: And even her father, he'd storm out of the house
Speaker 3: in a mood. She'd slam the door behind him and
Speaker 3: don't come back.
Speaker 4: Really, oh she was.
Speaker 3: And he would FaceTime her after Hannah had left, and
Speaker 3: Alia wouldn't want to speak to him. I would say,
Speaker 3: you don't have to, but Hanrahud say yes she does,
Speaker 3: and ali one night's talking to him, she goes, well, anyhow,
Speaker 3: I got to go wash my hair. No one knows
Speaker 3: where that came from.
Speaker 4: She just came out.
Speaker 1: Maybe it came from Grandma.
Speaker 2: She was just a madam. And Leanna was a cheeky monkey.
Speaker 4: She was a little monkey.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I carried her everywhere up until the day she died.
Speaker 3: And I used to say to her, how much longer
Speaker 3: do I have to carry you for? And she'd say
Speaker 3: till I'm seven. I have no idea what the significance
Speaker 3: of seven was. Obviously to her that was a good age.
Speaker 1: But she is not stupid. She was going to get
Speaker 1: take the easy path as long as she could.
Speaker 2: Before she had Ah always always conned.
Speaker 4: And Trey, he was just a little ball of energy. Yeah,
Speaker 4: his little legs going up and down and you kick
Speaker 4: a football pass, you know for a three. He had skills. Yeah,
Speaker 4: they all had their own little individual skills. Yeah. I
Speaker 4: said Aliyah was smart. She was going to be a teacher,
Speaker 4: and see that.
Speaker 2: She was very, very smart, very She could read better
Speaker 2: than a father.
Speaker 4: That used to be so funny.
Speaker 3: He'd be reading reading to the other two little ones,
Speaker 3: and she'd come along and say, oh, you're not very.
Speaker 2: Good at that.
Speaker 1: I have to correct him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I mean Leanna was just a fascinator.
Speaker 4: Should change her clothes three or four times a day.
Speaker 2: Fashion stuff, isn't that?
Speaker 1: Isn't it fun at that age, at that such those
Speaker 1: early ages that they're showing their personality and you can
Speaker 1: see you can almost go okay and no where this
Speaker 1: is going to cause grief during the teenage years. This
Speaker 1: is going to be Yeah, but you sound like you're
Speaker 1: very close too, Like what were the dynamics and the family,
Speaker 1: Like how often did you see them?
Speaker 3: And a couple of times a week. Yeah, I had
Speaker 3: them every Friday and Saturdays.
Speaker 2: We often spent with them.
Speaker 4: On Saturday morning gym class. Who we used to do
Speaker 4: body classes with him. Actually he was a very good
Speaker 4: gym coach, but just a total lunatic but knew his stuff.
Speaker 4: Always sort of said, you need to move, you need
Speaker 4: to be flexible, you need to be able to get
Speaker 4: up and down off of the ground, you know, especially
Speaker 4: as you get older. Because he'd get old, people come
Speaker 4: and say, I just want to lift weight. Someone build
Speaker 4: up my biceps. I want to cut down, he said,
Speaker 4: But can you get up and down off the ground
Speaker 4: easy enough? Oh, what do I need to do that? Well,
Speaker 4: you need to do that for your kids, for your grandkids.
Speaker 4: So it was good in that way, and the stuff
Speaker 4: that we did was good. I really enjoyed it. But
Speaker 4: it was just his carry on. He expected everyone to
Speaker 4: be like an a grade football you know, or a
Speaker 4: top athlete. But we just wanted to go there and
Speaker 4: spend a bit of time, do a bit of fun.
Speaker 1: And couldn't didn't have that emotional intelligence to understand what
Speaker 1: people wanted. Just before we moved past Hannah and the children.
Speaker 1: And another thing that came out the generosity of spirit
Speaker 1: of Hannah in that even when things were going bad,
Speaker 1: she still saw the importance of the kids having a
Speaker 1: connection with the father and even had empathy for the
Speaker 1: father that he's missing the kids and all that was
Speaker 1: that her nature, that empathy very much.
Speaker 3: So she really felt for him. She wanted to make
Speaker 3: sure he had fifty to fifty care of the children.
Speaker 3: She really pushed for that. But he played games, he
Speaker 3: wouldn't return them on time when always half an hour
Speaker 3: late because no one could tell him what to do
Speaker 3: with his children, and then he started to misbehave like
Speaker 3: that and she couldn't trust him. He would go off
Speaker 3: with the children, not answer his Phonechristmas Day. He'd kept
Speaker 3: the kids ransom for a couple of hours prior to Christmas,
Speaker 3: and I forbid him to come Christmas Day, but Lloyd
Speaker 3: and Hannah talked me down and said, he's the father,
Speaker 3: he's entitled to be there. He should be there. I
Speaker 3: thought he'd lost his chance. In my books, you get
Speaker 3: one chance. But yeah, they took me around and he
Speaker 3: was very good on the Christmas Day, I must say.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting that you say that in the Lloyd
Speaker 1: and Hannah saying, well, wish you would you say there's
Speaker 1: no clear path, is there? No, it's a judgment.
Speaker 4: I was about myself. If I was in his shoes,
Speaker 4: I'd want to see my kids on Christmas Day. And
Speaker 4: I thought, well, okay, he can come for a couple
Speaker 4: of hours, I said. When I went around there to
Speaker 4: see him, he said, well, come on in, and I said, no,
Speaker 4: I don wan't come in. I said, I'm just telling
Speaker 4: you now, you're welcome to come over for Christmas morning.
Speaker 4: So the kid's going over in their presence, you be
Speaker 4: there at six o'clock and or whatever it was, And
Speaker 4: I said, you know, have a couple of hours, and yeah,
Speaker 4: we couldn't get rid of him. He was there at eleven.
Speaker 1: Hours doing the right thing. I think a warning sign,
Speaker 1: and we talk about this domestic and family violence, is
Speaker 1: when any partner, whether it's a female or the male,
Speaker 1: starts using kids as manipulation in the relationship, that pawns
Speaker 1: to him, and that to me, speaks so much about
Speaker 1: the quality of the person, no matter what's happened in
Speaker 1: the relationship. The kids shouldn't be used as the pawns
Speaker 1: in the relationship. And it's a warning sign, and it's
Speaker 1: something that says something about the character of the person
Speaker 1: that they're prepared to use the children as a bargainship.
Speaker 4: Well, then the very next day, Boxing day, that's when
Speaker 4: he kidnapped Layana. So he was very good one day,
Speaker 4: but in the back of his mind, obviously he was
Speaker 4: thinking what he was going to do the next day.
Speaker 4: And I said, I'll take the kids down they got
Speaker 4: skateboards and scooters for Christmas, take them down along the
Speaker 4: river and they can ride him down there. We said, oh,
Speaker 4: we'll come too. Then he said can I come along?
Speaker 4: Wouldn't mind coming? So we said yeah, and we said
Speaker 4: to hand and said we'll come. She said no, no,
Speaker 4: it's fine. And of course, what as you do? He
Speaker 4: just grabs Leana, shucks her in the car and takes off,
Speaker 4: screaming out the window, saying, so you've done this, Hannah,
Speaker 4: it's all your fault.
Speaker 1: Okay. What when did he first become? When did they
Speaker 1: first get together? And when did he start? When did
Speaker 1: you first meet him? What were your impressions first? Up
Speaker 1: Rowan Baxa would say his name? What were the impressions
Speaker 1: when they got together?
Speaker 3: I didn't like him at first because he was eleven
Speaker 3: years older.
Speaker 1: How old was he and how old.
Speaker 3: Was Hannah was twenty he was thirty one.
Speaker 1: That's a big life game, Yeah, I thought, so, life
Speaker 1: stage difference.
Speaker 3: And he was still living with his partner and child.
Speaker 3: But I don't know whether Hannah said it to pacify
Speaker 3: me or it's what she believed from him. It was
Speaker 3: purely just for the child.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: The relationship was long over, which we found out later
Speaker 3: wasn't so. Yeah, and then he did he won us over, right,
Speaker 3: He loved Bob.
Speaker 1: Does yeah, Like now you look back at it and
Speaker 1: it was manipulative or was that? Do you think it
Speaker 1: was genuine when he said love Bob new he was
Speaker 1: a perfect person for.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I think he well, he was out to
Speaker 3: win us over. But he would invite us to dinners
Speaker 3: and places, and Hanna would even say to me, I
Speaker 3: didn't want you to come. I also don't ask him like,
Speaker 3: but he would, so he eventually won us over. I
Speaker 3: must say we thought he was lovely and we thought
Speaker 3: he generally loved her.
Speaker 1: What about Hannah's brother Nathan? How was Nathan at the time?
Speaker 1: What was his sense of.
Speaker 2: He would have been eighteen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, he didn't particularly like him, and they clashed
Speaker 3: a bit, quite a bit. Because that's very good physically,
Speaker 3: like in gymnastics and trampolining, and that was one thing
Speaker 3: that Rowan always wanted to be like that. He was
Speaker 3: very good at lifting weights and things, but not flexible,
Speaker 3: couldn't do somersaults and flips and things.
Speaker 1: And so he would a pride of himself on these
Speaker 1: physicality and then young Nate it didn't appreciate it and
Speaker 1: can do this and do that, and.
Speaker 4: Nearly the same way. Can it nearly run the speed
Speaker 4: and it could do flips, yeah, handing basults and stuff
Speaker 4: like that. So that's what he wanted to do. So
Speaker 4: he used them to help coach him and.
Speaker 1: So he could get it right okay, And.
Speaker 2: He was quite a show pony rant.
Speaker 3: He'd be on the beach and once Hannah actually taught
Speaker 3: him how to do a back flip and he would
Speaker 3: do him on the beach and think he was hot,
Speaker 3: hot stuff, and it'd be funny, and he'd say to
Speaker 3: that you should do it, and now I'd be don't
Speaker 3: need to And then in the end that would do
Speaker 3: it and it would be better, and you could see
Speaker 3: he really regretted he'd pushed.
Speaker 1: To do it. Interesting, interesting dynamics. Very So how long
Speaker 1: were they together before they got married and what was
Speaker 1: the progression of the relationship.
Speaker 3: They were together Probably four years before they married, and
Speaker 3: that was he was prepared to propose to He actually
Speaker 3: had a ring hidden in my cupboarde probably twelve months
Speaker 3: prior to that. Didn't it before he actually proposed because
Speaker 3: Nad ended up getting engaged and he didn't want to
Speaker 3: follow on NAT's foots. It was all the thing. So
Speaker 3: he held off.
Speaker 1: Did you, like, you have a relationship, You've got your daughter,
Speaker 1: she's twenty. You're thinking, okay, well, maybe it'll just peter out.
Speaker 1: You can't tell them what to do, so you've got
Speaker 1: to let it run its natural course. When it got
Speaker 1: to the fact, okay, well they're making a commitment to
Speaker 1: be together now in a marriage. Did that cause you
Speaker 1: concern or did you think, okay, well maybe it will work.
Speaker 1: What was going through your mind?
Speaker 2: I thought it would work at that stage. I think
Speaker 2: he wasn't showing his true colors.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we didn't see any of those warnings side red flags.
Speaker 4: I think you know, occasionally he had a road rage
Speaker 4: fit while we're with him, and I thought, geez, got
Speaker 4: a sharp temper. I didn't even need to crack off
Speaker 4: at those people for that. You know, we'll get out
Speaker 4: of the car and kick the door, you know, just
Speaker 4: get in the car, mate, let it go.
Speaker 1: Well again, the little little warning.
Speaker 4: Side they were the things. Then further down the track,
Speaker 4: three or four years down the track, I look back
Speaker 4: and go, well, ship, I should have seen that. Yeah,
Speaker 4: there was little signs there. You know, there's rage that
Speaker 4: just came out. And if he got beaten at the
Speaker 4: gym doing awad, he'd find some excuse why he got beaten.
Speaker 4: All the other one didn't count properly, didn't do their numbers,
Speaker 4: so he was always he had to win. One of
Speaker 4: those people had to win at everything, and even playing
Speaker 4: with the kids to be down the beach, came to
Speaker 4: race and you'd have to trip them over and push
Speaker 4: them over and beat them.
Speaker 1: That's a shallow victory.
Speaker 4: Come on, let him win once in a while.
Speaker 1: Well maybe, and you know what we're what we're talking through,
Speaker 1: and I you know, I think maybe people take these
Speaker 1: things away. We talk red flags. We see them now hindsight,
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful thing. But we talked and this is
Speaker 1: later on where they manipulate the used children as a pawn.
Speaker 1: But if you've got someone that's road rage, I've never
Speaker 1: understood road rage. And people think I'm a cranky person,
Speaker 1: but I haven't got time to get caught up in
Speaker 1: road rage. And I'm always astounded why some people just
Speaker 1: lose their shit because someone's made a mistake driving the car.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 1: So if people are listening, if you're looking at someone
Speaker 1: and there's road rage, will have a deeper looking what's
Speaker 1: going on. There so they get married. The wedding passed
Speaker 1: without incident.
Speaker 3: He was very involved in the wedding. That shocked me.
Speaker 3: Most men are quite happy to turn up on the day.
Speaker 3: Leave me out of it, don't you know, I'll turn up.
Speaker 1: I put my hand up for that one.
Speaker 2: Oh no.
Speaker 3: He was had to taste all the food, he picked
Speaker 3: the venue.
Speaker 4: All of it, and from ten to go elate because
Speaker 4: it would have been not cheaper for us. Yeah, here's
Speaker 4: ten K. You're going to America, get married over there
Speaker 4: or whatever. No, no, no, we want to have this
Speaker 4: big night.
Speaker 1: And he doesn't. And I don't know him. I'm only
Speaker 1: trying to get a picture of him. But he doesn't
Speaker 1: strike me as a person that it would be for
Speaker 1: his own sense wanting to be concerned about the wedding.
Speaker 1: It's almost like he's putting on a show.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 3: It was, especially in hindsight looking back, it was. It
Speaker 3: was a big production too.
Speaker 1: Look look how much I love. Look what a beautiful
Speaker 1: person I am. I'm a romantic and yeah, the wedding's
Speaker 1: just got to be perfect.
Speaker 3: Until he opened up the wishing well the next day.
Speaker 3: Oh geez, such and such didn't give us much, did
Speaker 3: they oh, do you know how much they're worth? And
Speaker 3: they didn't give us much.
Speaker 1: As Okay explained.
Speaker 4: Is that, Look, you had the wedding down at Kingscliff,
Speaker 4: so people had to travel down spend it. That's against there,
Speaker 4: you know, so you've been graced by their presence, You've
Speaker 4: asked them down. You think you're not going to get
Speaker 4: a whole a lot because you know you've made them travel, spend,
Speaker 4: spend money, and then spend more money on you.
Speaker 1: Well that might that might be another warning sign her
Speaker 1: own rage and not gratitude for gifts given. Like that's
Speaker 1: that's weird, isn't it? It certainly is. Was there concerns
Speaker 1: that his demeanor or did the relationship change when they
Speaker 1: got married in that I've got you now, I don't
Speaker 1: have to impress, not straight away.
Speaker 3: And Hannah was pregnant when they got married, as it
Speaker 3: turned out, by accident. Actually, well she was up for
Speaker 3: a new script of the pill and she said, he's
Speaker 3: really old and I'm young. I'm not going to reknew
Speaker 3: that the pill. She was wanting to have children and
Speaker 3: she has I'm not going to feel pregnant that quick anyway, Well,
Speaker 3: she was fourteen, so she was fourteen weeks.
Speaker 2: Pregnant when they married.
Speaker 3: And yeah, so Aliyah came along and things weren't too bad.
Speaker 3: He was very proud of Aliyah. But again, he was
Speaker 3: one of those fathers that everyone thought was wonderful. He'd
Speaker 3: changed nappies when he was out. People would see him
Speaker 3: do that. Didn't do a thing at home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, a show pony that coming across. The other
Speaker 1: kids came along.
Speaker 3: Hannah was pregnant with the Leah Leana. Sorry when they
Speaker 3: opened the gym, and that's when things really started spirally.
Speaker 1: Now and what I understand, they opened the gym together
Speaker 1: and people gravitated towards Hannah. But rowan that it was
Speaker 1: hard to get clients because of his demeanor or his
Speaker 1: lack of emotional intelligence or understanding of human nature.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was like a drill sergeant at first.
Speaker 4: Yes, they had a lot of clients. Everyone came. You know,
Speaker 4: we had a big open day and he signed up
Speaker 4: a lot of people. But unfortunately, he said, with that
Speaker 4: drill sergeant attitude and not giving leeway, mate, do the challenges.
Speaker 4: Even you don't get the big, big people in and
Speaker 4: you know, train them down, you know, you know they're
Speaker 4: going to come for twelve or pay for twelve weeks. Hey,
Speaker 4: if they don't come, they don't come. I know you
Speaker 4: didn't like that if you paid your money to have
Speaker 4: an excuse not to be there. Yeah, which was just silly,
Speaker 4: you know, like he still had numbers. You get him
Speaker 4: paid for it. What doesn't matter, you know, Let's just
Speaker 4: move on, you know, let them go and then do
Speaker 4: it again and get more people in. I think we
Speaker 4: worked it out right near the end. He didn't care
Speaker 4: about that. He didn't care if the gym sort of
Speaker 4: failed as much because it was his gym. He could
Speaker 4: train when he wanted to train, and he could train
Speaker 4: however he wanted to train. No one could tell him
Speaker 4: what to do and how to do it.
Speaker 1: So he was king, Yeah, I get a sense, and yeah,
Speaker 1: he wanted to be the man like as in my gym,
Speaker 1: look at me. Everyone that comes in is got to
Speaker 1: look at him. And I've seen them in Jim, those
Speaker 1: type of things, I reckon they're wankers that the struc around.
Speaker 2: No one can be better than him. It was his gym.
Speaker 2: He had to be top dog.
Speaker 4: He had a problem with people who actually had earned
Speaker 4: a lot of money, you know, who had money. Oh,
Speaker 4: how did they get all that money?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 4: They should, you know. But he would like to, you know,
Speaker 4: crawl up to them and get their money off them
Speaker 4: and get give them vouchers or get to go to
Speaker 4: their restaurants or stuff like that for free. But he
Speaker 4: was always always hated people who had money because he
Speaker 4: never had it. And when he got money, he was
Speaker 4: just instead of paying bills. Oh, I'll shout coffee or
Speaker 4: come on around, and he'd splash it around. And you've
Speaker 4: got bills to pay first. And we'd walk out to
Speaker 4: their house and Chandler and to build these letters hanging
Speaker 4: out a letterbox, and we'd get them out and walk
Speaker 4: in and go, I think you got some bills here. Oh,
Speaker 4: and you can see they've been sitting there for a while.
Speaker 4: I don't worry about that. If you don't look at them,
Speaker 4: you don't need to worry about them. Hey, hang on,
Speaker 4: you need to pay your bills.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. Look, we're not psychologists, obviously, but
Speaker 1: it's starting to paint a picture, isn't it. It's this bravado.
Speaker 1: It's very narcissistic in the way everything's about him. And yeah, again,
Speaker 1: warning signs if people are looking at it like someone
Speaker 1: that's It seems to me like he didn't want to
Speaker 1: actually pay his due. Is he just wanted to reap
Speaker 1: the rewards. And I want the people to look up
Speaker 1: to him. And he's the man. He runs a gym,
Speaker 1: he's got money, he's got life, he's got this beautiful wife,
Speaker 1: he's got these kids, perfect relationship. It's a lot of
Speaker 1: just pretense for us.
Speaker 4: And that's what he went very well on social media.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, photos of having a great time with the family,
Speaker 4: look at us and he had of looking good or whatever.
Speaker 4: But he was very prudish though with her, like you
Speaker 4: wear a bikini down the beach, but wouldn't let her
Speaker 4: walk off the beach up to with the showers that
Speaker 4: have a shower of shed to put something on again.
Speaker 3: But he could photograph her in the bikini and post
Speaker 3: it on social media.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that that shows and it's interesting. I didn't
Speaker 1: think the conversation gave this way, But I'm fine. That fascinating.
Speaker 1: The sense of the type of person he is, that
Speaker 1: jealousy is just is shown there. Like if you're with someone,
Speaker 1: you love someone, you celebrate their joys and all that.
Speaker 1: But he wanted Hannah's mind. I owner, and I don't
Speaker 1: want anyone looking at her away from me like that.
Speaker 3: That's what she dreaded his birthday every year because he
Speaker 3: would just be unbearable because a lot of the boys
Speaker 3: would have a dig geez, mate, you're punching above your weight?
Speaker 2: What are you doing with her?
Speaker 3: And every year someone would say it, and that would
Speaker 3: be oh, she dreaded it.
Speaker 4: Really, I think that's where it was going because he
Speaker 4: was getting older and slower. He was starting to worry
Speaker 4: that Hannah was a lot younger, and then the things
Speaker 4: started getting more He started more controlling as it went
Speaker 4: from there. If you look, I suppose you sat down
Speaker 4: to the timeline and I reckon, Like su said, every
Speaker 4: birthday he'd get cranky and cranky, he's losing a bit
Speaker 4: more hair, and.
Speaker 3: Which Hannah would point out and he didn't like she
Speaker 3: would find little.
Speaker 1: So he had this like, to me, sounds like a
Speaker 1: very insecure, fragile ego. But it was all Bravardo. But
Speaker 1: there wasn't much substance under scratch scratch the surface, and
Speaker 1: so everything was sort of attacking his sense. He's deluded
Speaker 1: sense of self worth. Yes, yeah, well again, if people
Speaker 1: are listening. We know people of this type, and you know,
Speaker 1: if the relationships not right, don't don't go down that path.
Speaker 4: Just like to say, people do know someone like that
Speaker 4: who's working away, don't be a bystander. You stand up
Speaker 4: and say, hey, let's go and have a conversation, let's
Speaker 4: have a cup of coffee, let's sit down and have
Speaker 4: a beer, whatever, But talk to them about it. It's
Speaker 4: not cool. You know. We don't want society going down
Speaker 4: the path that we're heading now where there's not a
Speaker 4: really fair relationship anymore. People are just having to go
Speaker 4: they going to be king or they want to do this.
Speaker 4: What's happened to respect?
Speaker 1: That? That respect is something? And I think and with
Speaker 1: the conversation we had the other other day, Lord, we're
Speaker 1: talking about you men have got to sit down with
Speaker 1: other men and mate the way you're treating your wife
Speaker 1: or that. It's not because invariably we stand back and go, oh,
Speaker 1: it's sad business. This is the male way of dealing
Speaker 1: with things. Like women get into the nitty gritty of
Speaker 1: it in the conversations, but whereas men just go, it's
Speaker 1: not real good unless we're confronted with it. Where we
Speaker 1: have to step in. We tend to avoid those those conversations,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, sometimes things can be circumvented
Speaker 1: if people get in there and call someone out for it.
Speaker 4: He did have He did have a dig at me
Speaker 4: when Hannah left. He said, mate, what didn't you come
Speaker 4: to me and say something? I said, I couldn't. I said,
Speaker 4: I tried, We tried it. I said, every time we
Speaker 4: try and talk to you, I said, you just go
Speaker 4: off the handle. So I think if you've got someone
Speaker 4: like that, that's when you've got a red flag and
Speaker 4: they really need to get help. So you've got to
Speaker 4: get them to a professional person to try and help.
Speaker 1: To get help. When did it get to the point
Speaker 1: when and soe you said, Hannah started confiding in you.
Speaker 1: When did it get to the point where you guys thought, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is we've got problems here. This is getting out
Speaker 1: of control.
Speaker 3: After Leana was born, it was starting to about and
Speaker 3: Hannah was getting ready to leave, and then she felt
Speaker 3: pregnant with Trey, which I think she was in denial
Speaker 3: because no one found out she was pregnant till after
Speaker 3: four months, and I think she was not wanting to
Speaker 3: be And it was and that trapter again, especially when
Speaker 3: he found out he was having a son.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could imagine the ego would have gone in
Speaker 1: the wayver drive. Yeah, my son's going to be everything
Speaker 1: I couldn't be.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Yeah. He was hard on Trey. Trey couldn't
Speaker 3: be a silk couldn't. Yeah, and Trey was a mummy's boy.
Speaker 3: You know, he's only little.
Speaker 1: But again, that's a personality. I can see the mile away.
Speaker 1: You're going to be bigger, stronger, Yeah. Yeah, Okay, So
Speaker 1: stuck in that situation. Then again, this is just the life,
Speaker 1: isn't it. This is the way things roll. And you
Speaker 1: can understand Hannah would be trying to hang on to
Speaker 1: some degree of hope that we can turn things around.
Speaker 1: You've got three kids now. People are vulnerable in the
Speaker 1: relationship like that, especially women, to walk away break up
Speaker 1: with the husband. And you've got three kids to look at.
Speaker 3: And you told your a bad mother, and you're going
Speaker 3: to damage those children. You have no idea what damage
Speaker 3: you'll do to those children to take them away from me?
Speaker 1: Is that the that's the narrative that he was feeding
Speaker 1: there and into a good person that can be soul destroying.
Speaker 4: She was a broken, broken person. When she came to us,
Speaker 4: she'd lost her strength, Like you know, she she made
Speaker 4: that comment before she got killed. You know, I am
Speaker 4: a strong woman. I'm better for being a strong woman
Speaker 4: now and I'll get over this. But when she first
Speaker 4: came down our house, I could see she wasn't the
Speaker 4: strong Hannah that we used to know. He had beaten
Speaker 4: her down over a couple of years, and you know,
Speaker 4: just that constant barrage of look, move your fat ass,
Speaker 4: or you know, you need to lose a bit more weight,
Speaker 4: you know, and come home and say, oh, this place
Speaker 4: is a.
Speaker 1: Mess, attacking her self, estume every chance, and that that's
Speaker 1: where and when we talk coercive control, that that's very
Speaker 1: thing that we talk about. Yeah, beating it down doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily have to be physical violence because it's but that
Speaker 1: emotional that control. So you saw her change from that.
Speaker 1: What age are we talking now?
Speaker 3: What's she was thirty one when he killed her, so
Speaker 3: probably twenty seven twenty eight things were progressively and its
Speaker 3: getting worse.
Speaker 1: It should be such a great time in life, you know,
Speaker 1: that should be Yeah, at that time, she's got the
Speaker 1: beautiful kids and everything. When did she decide that she
Speaker 1: had to take a step step away.
Speaker 2: She was well before Trey was born.
Speaker 3: She was kind of she'd made up in her mind
Speaker 3: she was going, but it took another three years before
Speaker 3: she actually had the guts. I suppose, and she knew.
Speaker 3: I kept saying to it, you can come home anytime.
Speaker 3: Oh mom, there's no room, And I made my bed,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna lie in it, and I'm like, you don't,
Speaker 3: you don't, And it was hard.
Speaker 1: It saddens me because she just comes across as such
Speaker 1: a beautiful human being and I can see all those
Speaker 1: emotions from a decent, kind, nice human being, and yeah,
Speaker 1: she's stuck in that situation. So how did she actually
Speaker 1: muster up the courage to say this is it?
Speaker 2: It took quite a while.
Speaker 3: We prepared for a bit over six months we were preparing,
Speaker 3: Wing got bunk beds in and Hannah actually started buying
Speaker 3: some clothes she was never allowed to wear and screwing
Speaker 3: them at our house. And she got her passport and
Speaker 3: the kid's birth certificates and things which she was slowly
Speaker 3: leaving at our house.
Speaker 2: So she had us safe.
Speaker 3: And there would be quite a few times she said
Speaker 3: to us, Okay, this weekend, I'm leaving, and at the time,
Speaker 3: she was starting to suspect he had listening devices in
Speaker 3: the house because he took her away one weekend.
Speaker 2: Had it, oh this romantic.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any evidence of it, but
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put it past someone like that with that
Speaker 1: sort of obsession, that would have monitored her in some way.
Speaker 3: They found eight iPhones in the house after Hannah left,
Speaker 3: strategically put.
Speaker 1: Around Yeah, that's scary, isn't.
Speaker 2: It is?
Speaker 3: And well she knew this one time before she left.
Speaker 3: It was Torrian bro which is actually coming up. She'd
Speaker 3: qualified to compete, which is quite a I think, and
Speaker 3: he hadn't. He wanted to go individually, he hadn't qualified,
Speaker 3: and she had for a team. So this was for
Speaker 3: Torrium Pro Big CrossFit Games, and he hadn't qualified individually,
Speaker 3: so he decided he'd be in her team, and she
Speaker 3: didn't want him, And she was apologizing to one of
Speaker 3: the team members while driving her home, saying, I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: he's such an asshole.
Speaker 2: Yeah blah blah.
Speaker 3: Blah, And she got home and he had a go
Speaker 3: d He knew what she said, and the excuse was
Speaker 3: that Aliah must have been playing with Hannah's phone and
Speaker 3: somehow sent it to him, and Hannah knew that was
Speaker 3: so he dropped out of the team, thinking that would
Speaker 3: mess it up for everybody. Hannah was at the gym
Speaker 3: taking the five o'clock class in the morning. Hannah got home,
Speaker 3: him and the children had disappeared and wouldn't answer his phone,
Speaker 3: so she was hysterical. Rang me I came over and
Speaker 3: she thought he may take the kids to the coast.
Speaker 3: That was their happy place and our son and daughter
Speaker 3: in law live at the coast. So Hannah rang Stacy,
Speaker 3: our daughter in law, to say, could you keep an
Speaker 3: eye out see if you see him? But none of
Speaker 3: us realized Nat was back from the mines. He'd gotten
Speaker 3: back a day early. Nat had answered the phone and anyway,
Speaker 3: when Rowan finally came home, he said to Hannah, I
Speaker 3: can't believe you called your mother and your brother. So
Speaker 3: if he'd checked her phone, she died Stacy's number, but
Speaker 3: he knew Hannah had been speaking to her brother.
Speaker 1: Okay, so he was doing cover like trying to.
Speaker 3: Listen and turning up at places where he shouldn't know,
Speaker 3: and she was and.
Speaker 1: Was there any suggestions so of getting police involvement in
Speaker 1: this point in time, or did she was a plan
Speaker 1: just to Okay, I'm out of here and I'm living
Speaker 1: with my parents, or I'm going here, but our relationship
Speaker 1: is finished. There was no involvement from police at that
Speaker 1: point in.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to. She would scare.
Speaker 3: She was so scared any involvement would antagonize him and
Speaker 3: make things worse. So and even when she had said
Speaker 3: she was thinking of leaving to him it was for
Speaker 3: a break, she would never say it was forever, okay.
Speaker 1: And I understand that because I don't think she would
Speaker 1: have been able to walk out the door if she
Speaker 1: said I've never seen you again.
Speaker 3: Oh no, because he said there was no way she
Speaker 3: was to take his children, and that wasn't happening. But eventually,
Speaker 3: after a lot of mistries, she was at the gym
Speaker 3: early one morning and she was talking to Nicki and
Speaker 3: lou two of her close friends, and she was talking
Speaker 3: about she's got to go, how bad it was, and
Speaker 3: then Nicki just said, well, is he at work this morning?
Speaker 3: Because he was not going to work either so that
Speaker 3: he could keep an eye on her, And Hannah said,
Speaker 3: he's actually gone today, and that Nicki said right, Okay,
Speaker 3: we don't need to do our gym class. Let's go,
Speaker 3: and Nicki kind of took control. Hannah went into the house.
Speaker 3: The kids were allowed she went and got a lear
Speaker 3: out of school, and the kids were allowed to pick
Speaker 3: two toys each and she left the house with three
Speaker 3: garbage bags for the lot of them. And they left
Speaker 3: Hannah's car at the local McDonald's down in Nicki's house
Speaker 3: because he didn't know where Nicki left lived, and spent
Speaker 3: the night at Nicki's house.
Speaker 4: Okay, just in case if he had a tracker or something.
Speaker 2: On the car.
Speaker 1: Knowing the way that you guys have described him and
Speaker 1: what we understand, he would have been in a fit
Speaker 1: of rage at this. It was just he would have
Speaker 1: just lost his shit.
Speaker 3: Over the He was in a rage, and then it
Speaker 3: resulted into sobbing uncontrollably.
Speaker 2: He was ringing me all day. Do you know where
Speaker 2: she is?
Speaker 3: He was angry at first, and I was saying I
Speaker 3: have no idea, and that he would ring me crying, Oh.
Speaker 2: This is killing me. I need my children.
Speaker 1: I mean. One of the many forums that have covered
Speaker 1: Hannah's story, there was talk with how many people he
Speaker 1: would phone and just cry and I think it might
Speaker 1: have been said it on one of the shows that
Speaker 1: he did. He found out that he'd phone people just
Speaker 1: on the periphle and just tell them, making himself out
Speaker 1: to be the good guy, the victim.
Speaker 4: That's right. He played the victim very well, but he
Speaker 4: was the victim.
Speaker 3: People he disliked and hadn't spoken to for ages. He
Speaker 3: ran to tell them his side of the story.
Speaker 1: There's that. There's that clip that has been publicly shown
Speaker 1: where he and Hannah are pulled over in the car
Speaker 1: and the cars Reggie, which put my hand up, since
Speaker 1: they've taken those stickers off those windows. Yes, bring back
Speaker 1: the stickers. It'll save us all a lot of money.
Speaker 4: But they were just not good at that. That would
Speaker 4: have been probably the second or third time that time, right, Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 4: he just let it go. And it was always her
Speaker 4: car too, so they had two cars. And then of
Speaker 4: course you would have seen that in the footage if
Speaker 4: you picked it up. He goes, but it's her car.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just the way he reacted was just it
Speaker 1: made me cringe watching it. And that's seeing him sort
Speaker 1: of unfiltered. This is not the pretense he's put in
Speaker 1: on and just yeah, not we're in it together where
Speaker 1: it was your fault you did this.
Speaker 4: And just he's your problem. Yeah, but what he didn't
Speaker 4: realize he's the driver. Yeah, he's got to check that.
Speaker 4: So he got fined, not her, And of course we
Speaker 4: got called and said, oh, can you come and pay
Speaker 4: you pay the rent.
Speaker 1: Was there any concern of physical violence? Did she ever
Speaker 1: say that he physically assaulted her?
Speaker 3: Well, in my point of view was that I didn't
Speaker 3: think it was physical violence. But he did break her
Speaker 3: watch and he did throw her phone across the room
Speaker 3: and things like that, which I have since been informed
Speaker 3: that that is a form of physical violence. But he
Speaker 3: never really hit her. He slammed a gate into her
Speaker 3: leg when she was heavily pregnant with Leana because she
Speaker 3: disrespected him. But he hadn't actually physically and that's what
Speaker 3: she kept saying to me. But he's never hit me.
Speaker 1: And therein lies the misconception that with all these domestic
Speaker 1: violence situations and that yeah, it's got to be physical,
Speaker 1: that we've got to see the woman with a black
Speaker 1: eye too. What happened, she walked into a door. That
Speaker 1: type of narraty.
Speaker 4: That's what hit us so hard. Was why didn't we
Speaker 4: know about this? Why do we know this? Coercive control
Speaker 4: is so dangerous?
Speaker 1: That coercive control and speculation here we're just sort of brainstorming.
Speaker 1: But he seems like such a manipulation that he knows
Speaker 1: that if he slapped her all there was a bloody
Speaker 1: nose or a black eye, police are going to be involved.
Speaker 1: He's going to be charged, he's going to be shamed,
Speaker 1: he's going to be the wife beater.
Speaker 2: All that he knew I would come after him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I'd say there'll be a lot of fit
Speaker 1: mates it might come after.
Speaker 2: Right, Ok, yeah, so we're scared in kindsight.
Speaker 3: I look back now, I actually said to him on
Speaker 3: their wedding day, if you hurt my daughter, I will
Speaker 3: hunt you down. There's no way you can hide. And
Speaker 3: I don't even know why I said that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, therein lies and the coersive is so manipulative,
Speaker 1: Like it's not the dumb bloke that's lost his temper
Speaker 1: and slaps someone and then gets charged, And it's control control.
Speaker 1: It's about your image, the perceptions, everyone's perception.
Speaker 4: And when you look at it, at his personality and
Speaker 4: his demeanor. We've alsot of discussed about him. Yes, he
Speaker 4: lost his shit, So he wasn't an irrational thinker. If
Speaker 4: the kid one of the.
Speaker 2: Kids, no lateral thinking?
Speaker 4: Was that no lateral thinking, or that if one of
Speaker 4: the kids hurt themselves he couldn't handle it. If Hannah
Speaker 4: wasn't there, and if he was involved in playing a
Speaker 4: game they hurt himselves, well he just lost it and
Speaker 4: he would ring Sue. I think you know Aliah needs stitches.
Speaker 4: You know, I threw a cushion at her and she's
Speaker 4: running down the hall and she it hit her and
Speaker 4: she hit her head in the door jam. You know,
Speaker 4: he just oh, I got blood everywhere. What can I do?
Speaker 3: I got I arrived over there, he rang me, I
Speaker 3: left work, got over there. He's sitting on the floor rocking,
Speaker 3: crying while the pool kids just holding something on her head.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I had to take control of the pool
Speaker 3: kid because he said to me, can you come?
Speaker 2: Can you come?
Speaker 3: Because Hannah was at the gym, and he said, she
Speaker 3: only wants you because she wanted mum. But Hannah wasn't there,
Speaker 3: so then she wanted me.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Hannah's moved out with the kids, stayed at
Speaker 1: the friend's place. When did make an official. Was she
Speaker 1: staying with you guys or what?
Speaker 4: What was it?
Speaker 3: She the next next day moved into our place. That
Speaker 3: was a Saturday.
Speaker 1: Signing the sulky phone calls from him.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 3: So she moved in on the Saturday with us. And
Speaker 3: then this Sunday she was talking to him on the
Speaker 3: phone and she said to me, I'm going to go
Speaker 3: and have a coffee with him, And I'm like, are
Speaker 3: you sure? Yeah, yeah, it'll be all right. So anyway,
Speaker 3: they went and had a coffee. Next thing, she comes
Speaker 3: back with him and it's like, oh, let's all have
Speaker 3: tie for dinner, and Lord and I are looking at
Speaker 3: each other, and anyway, Lloyd and him went out and
Speaker 3: bought the tie. And I said to Hena, are you okacious? No,
Speaker 3: I'm not, she said, but I'll go home with him
Speaker 3: tonight and then in the morning when he's at the gym,
Speaker 3: I'm going for good. So I don't know why she
Speaker 3: felt she had to go back that night and she
Speaker 3: was begging me to go to the gym so that
Speaker 3: things look normal.
Speaker 2: And yeah, she.
Speaker 3: Went home that night with the kids, and the next morning,
Speaker 3: as soon as he left at five in the morning,
Speaker 3: she was up and drove down to her brother's house
Speaker 3: and stayed there for about three days.
Speaker 1: That's again it goes in and you talked about the
Speaker 1: self esteem being chipped away with all the negative comments,
Speaker 1: that he'd throw it there and he still had control
Speaker 1: that just come back for one night, we can talk
Speaker 1: about it, and you can see how people weaken to that.
Speaker 3: Well, while she was out of brother's, she just put
Speaker 3: the kids down to have a sleep and he rang
Speaker 3: her and Nat turned around and she's picking all this
Speaker 3: stuff up frantically, and he said, what are you doing.
Speaker 3: She said, I've got to go home. He said, I
Speaker 3: have to go home. I've got to bring the kids hi,
Speaker 3: And I said, no, you don't have to go anywhere,
Speaker 3: and he kept her there. But I liken it to
Speaker 3: almost like an alcoholic the victims. I could hear Hannah
Speaker 3: on the phone to him, and I could hear her weakening,
Speaker 3: almost like you have to have that drink.
Speaker 2: It was. And I would say to.
Speaker 3: Her, if he rings you and you feel you've got
Speaker 3: to go back to him, wring me or Nikki and
Speaker 3: we will almost talk you down.
Speaker 1: But I think that's that's a valid point. So I
Speaker 1: think they are broken down they're almost addicted to that
Speaker 1: toxic drama that has been their life.
Speaker 2: That's right control.
Speaker 4: What they say is gospel, what they think, but they
Speaker 4: don't realize because they've been beaten down and it's been
Speaker 4: drummed into them. You're no good. You can't live without me.
Speaker 4: The kids can't live without me. They need their father.
Speaker 4: You know, I am the best you know and where you.
Speaker 1: Go and everything that I understand about Hannah tells me
Speaker 1: she's not that person. But that's how destructive that type
Speaker 1: of manipulation can be.
Speaker 4: What happened was at the end is she finally put
Speaker 4: that wall up. She learned to put that wall up
Speaker 4: and say, no, I'm a strong woman. I'm not going
Speaker 4: back to you. You're never going to have me. And
Speaker 4: I don't ever think she ever said that to him,
Speaker 4: because there's always we'll just let it, give it six
Speaker 4: months and by then we're hoping you'd meet someone else
Speaker 4: and move on. But she got to that point and
Speaker 4: I think he just started spiraling. Then he realized he
Speaker 4: wasn't going to get it back. Yeah, all the kids.
Speaker 4: So then that's when he formulated his plan. It was
Speaker 4: all pre meditated. It wasn't a spur of the moment
Speaker 4: sort of thing. It was pre meditated what he did.
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Speaker 1: x plus on Apple Podcasts Today Police Involvement. Then, I
Speaker 1: was heartened by the fact that there was some good
Speaker 1: commentary about when Hannah went to the police, that someone
Speaker 1: fully understood what was going on, because I cringe, and
Speaker 1: I think we're at the point where we've improved with
Speaker 1: policing a talk across the country where someone walks in, well,
Speaker 1: there's nothing we can really do. People are starting to
Speaker 1: understand the dramatic effect that domestic and family violence. But
Speaker 1: do you want to tell us about the when she
Speaker 1: went to the police, and she was very buoyed by
Speaker 1: the fact that the police officer seemed to understand and care.
Speaker 2: She certainly was.
Speaker 3: I wanted her to go and get a DVO as
Speaker 3: we call them in Queensland out on him the day
Speaker 3: she came back and moved into our place, and she
Speaker 3: was so scared that would antagonize him, but I managed
Speaker 3: to talk her into at least as at least go
Speaker 3: up to the police station, talk to the police, see
Speaker 3: what you can do when you know, and if you
Speaker 3: have a case. And he got a lovely young policewoman
Speaker 3: at the front desk who I suspect may have been
Speaker 3: a victim at one stage in her life herself, so
Speaker 3: she really understood what was going on. And Anna was
Speaker 3: telling her about being forced to have sex every night
Speaker 3: and she was like, oh honey, that's rape. You know,
Speaker 3: you could have him for rape, and she was writing
Speaker 3: it all down and she was so wonderful. She agreed
Speaker 3: not to do a DVO, though she did tell Hannah
Speaker 3: she had plenty of grounds to take one out. And
Speaker 3: this police woman also worked at police beat at the
Speaker 3: local shopping center and she would pop in and check
Speaker 3: it on Hannah at work regularly to see how she was.
Speaker 3: And Hannah came home after that first visit and said
Speaker 3: to me, she believed everything I said, Mum, and I'm
Speaker 3: not going crazy, and you know I have I can
Speaker 3: charge him with rape, and she was just.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that that was Hannah's thought process. And I
Speaker 1: can understand someone if they'd been beaten down like Hannah
Speaker 1: had been and just manipulated, you start thinking, am I
Speaker 1: just making this up? Am I just? Am I looking
Speaker 1: for something more in the relationship. That's just not normal.
Speaker 3: But you've been told that too. Yeah, yeah, perpetrators And
Speaker 3: he was good at it. He would do something, and
Speaker 3: if Hannah then bought it up, it was, oh, that's
Speaker 3: not what happened. No, I didn't do that.
Speaker 1: So then you start a second guest. Yeah, okay, So
Speaker 1: the situation where it got to the point where Hannah
Speaker 1: was killed and three children were killed, was there something
Speaker 1: that was a catalyst for that that you think looking
Speaker 1: at what happened, what stirred that on?
Speaker 3: All I can think of is we'd had a great
Speaker 3: on the Saturday. We'd had a great family day down
Speaker 3: at SeaWorld, the whole family, and Hannah had posted it
Speaker 3: and how wonderful things were. And I don't know, he
Speaker 3: seemed quite upset after that.
Speaker 4: Well, after when the inquest was on, some facts came
Speaker 4: out there that we didn't know about. And one was
Speaker 4: they found this message on his in his notes. Yes,
Speaker 4: that was dated back and.
Speaker 2: It was like Australia date Australia.
Speaker 4: But it was like, oh well you call it a
Speaker 4: not a.
Speaker 3: Confession, no more of it was almost a suicide note from.
Speaker 1: Dying declaration or from Hannah. Yeah, okay, well I'll put
Speaker 1: my homicide had on there that then he's thinking of
Speaker 1: it at that time.
Speaker 3: It was written all about I'm sorry, you'll be I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: the children still love you, Hannah, but you've bought this
Speaker 3: on yourself, something like this, and so we weren't sure
Speaker 3: it was nobody was going to leave because he killed
Speaker 3: the kids or killed her, but it seemed like it
Speaker 3: was going to kill her.
Speaker 1: And that was because the day that he killed Hannah
Speaker 1: and the children was nineenth of February. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: we're talking Australia day twenty sixth of January, and he's
Speaker 1: got these thoughts in his head at that.
Speaker 2: Which none of us were aware.
Speaker 1: The police found that, and we can only speculate what's
Speaker 1: going through his mind, but there was certainly something going
Speaker 1: through his mind at that point in time.
Speaker 4: So that's what I think he realized that he wasn't
Speaker 4: going to get Hannah back. She was She's had this wall.
Speaker 4: Now she's strong, she's got the kids. And the thing
Speaker 4: is that he was never ever not going to be
Speaker 4: able to see the kids. He just why could he
Speaker 4: not just let them live their own life and he
Speaker 4: have his life and still see the kids and be
Speaker 4: part of their lives. But he had to have this
Speaker 4: one hundred percent, Like he said, I want the kids
Speaker 4: one hundred percent. How are you going to survive? How
Speaker 4: are you going to do that?
Speaker 3: And I was I'd actually said to him when he
Speaker 3: had the children, I would be more than happy to
Speaker 3: be there to support him if he needed anything done
Speaker 3: to help.
Speaker 4: He wasn't seeing things, you know laterally, so that's I mean,
Speaker 4: he couldn't get just get it through his head. All
Speaker 4: he had was that one vision, that one thing. That's
Speaker 4: all he wanted to do and know his way or.
Speaker 1: The high ways and look a couple of a couple
Speaker 1: of things. And this is what makes me very sad
Speaker 1: about what happened, because you guys, and obviously that played
Speaker 1: off with Hannah and everything you were so giving of
Speaker 1: that's the right thing, like, yeah, we're not trying to
Speaker 1: take it like you would be well within your right
Speaker 1: say stuff that we're going to get a called order
Speaker 1: that you never see your kids. But you were in
Speaker 1: spirit and you understood the importance of to him, you're
Speaker 1: being kind to him.
Speaker 4: We wanted to do the right find the right steps. Yeah,
Speaker 4: like we wanted to be all legal and just do it,
Speaker 4: do it proper, you know, and just move on.
Speaker 3: But by the time he killed them, we were starting
Speaker 3: to get well, maybe he should never have the children. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, we were starting to get he.
Speaker 1: Had those times where he took one of the kids
Speaker 1: away and different things, and that that caused a lot
Speaker 1: of stress to Hannah. So it would have to and
Speaker 1: I've never been in the situation. If you've had someone
Speaker 1: looking after my kids at that age that you didn't trust,
Speaker 1: it must be a living nightmare.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Well, the first time he had had the kids, remember
Speaker 4: that was around Australia, because it was it was just
Speaker 4: before Australia. So he had them for the Friday night.
Speaker 4: He's gonna have him Friday, So I don't think it
Speaker 4: was a couple of nights. So we said to Hannah, Okay,
Speaker 4: let's get an uber. We'll go down to the club
Speaker 4: down winter Man, we'll have a have a meal and
Speaker 4: have a few drefts. Let's just unwined ring Nikkis and Nikki.
Speaker 4: We're going down. How about you come down. So we
Speaker 4: went down and we're having a few drinks, and of course,
Speaker 4: next thing, she gets a phone call on his phone
Speaker 4: and it's Aliah. Yeah, what's going on? Oh Dad's got
Speaker 4: us in the car and he's taken us somewhere.
Speaker 2: Ye I don't know where he's driving and it's dark.
Speaker 4: And it's a thirty at night, and thinking well, why
Speaker 4: isn't he got the kids in the carner? Hang on?
Speaker 4: What's he doing? Is he taking them somewhere? Is he
Speaker 4: cutting for it? So he was starting to play those
Speaker 4: games right and next thing and Hannah, luckily she probably
Speaker 4: had a few drinks. She was quite calm about it.
Speaker 4: That's okay, you know, he's probably taking you to a
Speaker 4: fun thing, fun you know, And she didn't put any
Speaker 4: excitement in her voice or threatening that it's okay. And
Speaker 4: then before she could say the house, Aliah. This is
Speaker 4: how smart she was, she goes, hang on, we're just
Speaker 4: going past Bunnings. Oh you know, he's taking this back
Speaker 4: home you.
Speaker 2: Can see the exit on the freeway.
Speaker 1: Smart kid.
Speaker 2: Yes, he's the phone off the child.
Speaker 4: It just foiled the whole thing. So he was doing
Speaker 4: to try and upset Hannah. He obviously knew that she
Speaker 4: might have been out. I don't know whether he knews
Speaker 4: she was going out or whatever, but he just thought,
Speaker 4: I'll just put some fear into her that I've got
Speaker 4: the kids on taking off. So there's that Bravo Marsho
Speaker 4: man trying to be the tough guy again and beat
Speaker 4: her down.
Speaker 1: And this is where and we'll talk about this in
Speaker 1: part two, that you know these so called tough guys
Speaker 1: that think they're tough, real tough guys need to talk
Speaker 1: these guys down, like call them for what they are. Like,
Speaker 1: it's all bravarde, you are just a weak human being
Speaker 1: and we need to get there.
Speaker 3: Just the day, the day, the night before if I can,
Speaker 3: he FaceTime the children and he couldn't speak to them
Speaker 3: because he was crying so hard and like, Elia's just
Speaker 3: he's crying and the kids. In the end, Hannah said
Speaker 3: to him, I'm going to hang up unless you talk
Speaker 3: to the children. This is no good. They don't need
Speaker 3: to see you crying and then she had trouble sleeping
Speaker 3: that night because she thought he was going to kill himself,
Speaker 3: and she was really really concerned about that.
Speaker 1: Her empathy comes across even in that stage. But again,
Speaker 1: that's a manipulation, isn't.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go oh, he often threatened.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that would be part if you don't
Speaker 1: come back, I'm going to kill myself. That would have
Speaker 1: been rolled out to the point of ad nauseum. Okay,
Speaker 1: on the day people know about it. You've spoken about it,
Speaker 1: and I feel uncomfortable sitting here bringing it up. But
Speaker 1: I want people to understand what we're talking about here,
Speaker 1: and I'll say it that in a car, he doused
Speaker 1: Hannah and the three children with petrol, didn't douse himself
Speaker 1: with petrol, driving driving around, driving past someone that Hannah
Speaker 1: thought might be able to help and call out, and
Speaker 1: not on that basis that it escalated from there and
Speaker 1: he set the car alight.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she didn't know he was hiding the side of
Speaker 3: the house, ran out with the knife as she just
Speaker 3: finished putting the last one in the car seat, jumped in,
Speaker 3: held the knife on her and told her to drive through,
Speaker 3: petrol over them all and the idiot didn't realize that
Speaker 3: you get a bit of splashback from petrol, so he
Speaker 3: got petrol on himself and she just got down around
Speaker 3: the corner and she saw Michael, a neighbor, actually washing
Speaker 3: the car and he had a hose, so she screamed
Speaker 3: out to.
Speaker 4: Him, and she only had her window down. Car windows
Speaker 4: were tinted as well, so no one knew there were
Speaker 4: kids in the black One of the guys who was
Speaker 4: putting a sign up, he saw the cover on the
Speaker 4: window and it clicked to him that there's children there,
Speaker 4: so he raced over and sort of of course, they
Speaker 4: had the door locks too on it, so he only
Speaker 4: saw Hannah. Yeah, but Michael sort of got to the
Speaker 4: door and thought, what's going on in he I don't
Speaker 4: like to say his name, but she had had Hannah
Speaker 4: an a bear hug and she's trying to get out.
Speaker 4: Michael sort of got hose in his hand, looked and
Speaker 4: saw what's going on in the process, and next thing,
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, Hannah broke free, and he said,
Speaker 4: I think I got my hand to the door. I
Speaker 4: didn't even get over next to him. It was his
Speaker 4: almighty flash and that was enough. YEA he went back,
Speaker 4: his face got burnt. Hannah came out burnt on fire
Speaker 4: hose on her straight away hit get on the ground, dowst.
Speaker 4: Hannah kept the water on her, then looked around, saw
Speaker 4: him get out. He's covered in fire too, so he
Speaker 4: went around put him out. Then the car actually must
Speaker 4: have got out of gear started rolling back. Yeah, it
Speaker 4: had just gone up in flames. Talking to Dr Rashford
Speaker 4: and a few others, they reckon the velocity of the
Speaker 4: fire was so strong and that the kids didn't have
Speaker 4: a chance. They just went straight away, so there was
Speaker 4: no That was always my biggest thing was I hope
Speaker 4: the kids didn't suffer. They would have been so terrified
Speaker 4: because especially going on. So eight o'clock I actually got
Speaker 4: a phone call from Hannah. I'm on a job site,
Speaker 4: trying to look at a job and a lot of
Speaker 4: noise going around, and I'm saying, yeah, hello, how are
Speaker 4: you there? What's going on? Hello? And I can hear
Speaker 4: the kids, but it wasn't screaming, it wasn't. They just
Speaker 4: did me talking. So I thought, Okay, it's just a
Speaker 4: bum dye the kids working around. So I hung out
Speaker 4: and then you know, an hour later, I get a
Speaker 4: phone call from the neighbor saying, a detective, Sergeant Scott
Speaker 4: Thompson has been around here looking for you. What are
Speaker 4: you done? Jesus might have a speeding ticket, but I
Speaker 4: don't know why. Detectives.
Speaker 1: You don't have to confess now, Yeah.
Speaker 4: And holy crap, And anyway, we're trying to piece it together,
Speaker 4: and then he wrings him back and goes, oh, there's
Speaker 4: a card downs gone on fire, caught on fire, and
Speaker 4: you had some kids are going up in it, and
Speaker 4: oh wow. I still didn't put turn two together. I
Speaker 4: suppose I didn't want to. And he said it was
Speaker 4: a white car that he'd hurt. So yeah, I didn't
Speaker 4: think it was Hannah. I thought I she would have
Speaker 4: been long gone. But anyway, so I'm trying to call
Speaker 4: Sue Hannah at that stage, and you're going to say
Speaker 4: what happened to you? Years? So they came in to.
Speaker 3: Get you, and well, I was went for morning tea
Speaker 3: and I worked for dentists and one of the young
Speaker 3: dentists was flicking through Facebook and she stopped. She went, oh, Sue,
Speaker 3: three kids have been burnt to death in a car
Speaker 3: and camp Hill and I just knew. And then she
Speaker 3: read on a bit more and she went in Raven
Speaker 3: Street and then I just knew. And with that I
Speaker 3: looked up and two detectives walked in, so I knew
Speaker 3: straight away, and I tried as soon as she said it,
Speaker 3: I tried ringing and I was like, oh, no, I
Speaker 3: should be at the gym, the kids are at school,
Speaker 3: and didn't. Yeah, but it was pretty quick. And I'd
Speaker 3: heard the sirens all morning because I don't work far
Speaker 3: from where it happened. And actually I looked at the
Speaker 3: boss and went, Wow, something's happening today. It's all we
Speaker 3: could hear was sirens and sirens.
Speaker 1: I can't I'm sure anyone listening just can't imagine what
Speaker 1: goes through your mind there.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 1: One thing and gained testament to Hannah my understanding of
Speaker 1: even though the horrific injuries that she suffered, the burns,
Speaker 1: and she still managed to worry about her kids that
Speaker 1: was her primary concern and also speak to the police.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she gave a statement.
Speaker 3: Well, in her head, she would have wanted him to pay,
Speaker 3: and that was her last final act to make him pay.
Speaker 4: People have said that witnesses who were there on the day,
Speaker 4: some couple of young tradees came racing up as a
Speaker 4: car was rolling. They went out to try and stop
Speaker 4: it or try and get in there. And apparently at
Speaker 4: that stage he was still he was I wasn't on fire,
Speaker 4: but he had that. He went back to the burning cart,
Speaker 4: pulled the knife out and looked at these people and
Speaker 4: threatened them with the knife, and they reckoned. His eyes
Speaker 4: were just black. It was something evil there. It was
Speaker 4: just it wasn't right. Yeah, so yeah, they sort of
Speaker 4: pulled back and then he stabbed himself in the in
Speaker 4: the chest, not once, but twice. They missed the first.
Speaker 2: Time and lucky it was a blunt knife too. Took
Speaker 2: a while.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, look, you hear it. We've heard that these
Speaker 1: murder suicides and all that white tape, the children white
Speaker 1: take your partner. Yeah, if you're going to do it, do.
Speaker 4: It yourself exactly.
Speaker 1: But they're cowards. That's uh, there's no other way.
Speaker 3: That's why he stabbed himself. He realized then there was
Speaker 3: no way out.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, for being the control for it. I'd
Speaker 1: love love to see him put the prison situation with that,
Speaker 1: with what he's done and see what the tough guy
Speaker 1: is there.
Speaker 4: I think where the whole system fell apart, the QPS
Speaker 4: and they know it, and it was the only problem
Speaker 4: we've got with him is that when he did get
Speaker 4: when he breached the DVA and then he got caught
Speaker 4: at down local shopping center, they saw him, got him,
Speaker 4: took him to the police beat. He should have went
Speaker 4: to the watchhouse because he had breached his DVO and
Speaker 4: he had never gone back in to give his side
Speaker 4: of the story, give his evidence. So they let him go.
Speaker 4: And if he would have spent a night in jail
Speaker 4: bailable offense, maybe that could have been enough just to
Speaker 4: sort of stop it, a bit of a wake up call,
Speaker 4: put him in the pan for a while, cool him down,
Speaker 4: you know. But no, he got let off. So again,
Speaker 4: you know, he missed getting a smack on the wrist
Speaker 4: which might have set him straight. But we will never know.
Speaker 1: Well, when we might take a break now and when
Speaker 1: we get back, we're going to talk about the aftermath
Speaker 1: of what happened with the and it's a tragedy that
Speaker 1: touched everyone in the country. I don't think they're and
Speaker 1: I said it to you guys the other day when
Speaker 1: I said I was coming up here to do a
Speaker 1: podcast with you I've done podcasts with a lot of people,
Speaker 1: but the amount of comments I got with people going, oh,
Speaker 1: I remember that, so it's in the country, Psyche, what
Speaker 1: what happened? But we'll talk about, yeah, if any good
Speaker 1: can come from this, making sure that this type of
Speaker 1: thing is harder for it to happen again, and different
Speaker 1: things on the back of the work that you guys
Speaker 1: are tirelessly doing. So let's have a break and when
Speaker 1: we'll get back, we'll talk about that.
Speaker 4: Okay, sound good, Good