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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Today there's

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Speaker 1: a listener warning out. The subject matter is going to

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Speaker 1: be fairly distressing. We're going to be talking about domestic

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Speaker 1: and family violence, which has been very prominent in the

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Speaker 1: media of recent times. There's hardly a week that goes

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Speaker 1: by when someone hasn't been killed as a result of

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Speaker 1: domestic and family violence. As time things are stopped. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're speaking to Lloyd and Sue Clark. They're the parents

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Speaker 1: of Hannah Clarke, who was murdered along with her three

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Speaker 1: children are Leah who is six years old, Leana four

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Speaker 1: years old, and Tray three years old when they were

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Speaker 1: dousing petrol and set alight on the nine eighth of

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Speaker 1: February twenty twenty. The perpetrator of this horrendous crime was

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Speaker 1: Raum Baxter, Hannah's husband and the father of the three children.

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Speaker 1: It was a crime that shook the nation and sparked

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Speaker 1: a national debate about domestic violence. Well, today we've got

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Speaker 1: Lloyd and Sue Clark in the studio with us, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to sit down and talk about the lead

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Speaker 1: up to what occurred to their family and how they're

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Speaker 1: trying to make things different, bringing in new legislation, changing

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Speaker 1: things so this type of thing doesn't happen. We need

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Speaker 1: to talk about domestic and family violence, and Lloyd and

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Speaker 1: Sue Clark are people that have been touched on it

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Speaker 1: in the most awful of ways. Sue and Lloyd Clark,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's a pleasure, guys. And I think the

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Speaker 1: first time we met was at that charity function Small

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Speaker 1: Steps for Hannah. I've got to say it was an

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Speaker 1: impressive turnout, a lot of people there supporting what you

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Speaker 1: were doing for the small steps for Hannah. I sat

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Speaker 1: beside you guys during the event at the table, and

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Speaker 1: I got to say when I came away from that event,

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Speaker 1: I was full of mixed emotions. I just had a

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Speaker 1: overwhelming sense of sadness of what you guys had gone through,

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Speaker 1: talking to you and just understanding the impact that's had

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Speaker 1: on you. But I was also inspired. I was inspired

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Speaker 1: by the courageous way that you guys have moved forward

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Speaker 1: from what happened, never forgetting, but moving forward and trying

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Speaker 1: to make a difference. Where do you get the strength

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Speaker 1: because you're better people than I am. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how I would tape after going through what you guys

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Speaker 1: have gone through.

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Speaker 3: Family, I think Lloyd and Night. I think Lloyd gives

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Speaker 3: me strength. I give him strength. And we still have

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Speaker 3: our son and four beautiful grandsons, so you've got to

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Speaker 3: be there for them. We felt our world collapsed, and

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Speaker 3: then you think about it, well.

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Speaker 2: It's not just us.

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Speaker 3: Our son's world collapsed too, and we all need to

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Speaker 3: be there for each other. And I think and I

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Speaker 3: think Hannah's still with us, pushing. She always was a

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Speaker 3: bit of a puppeteer, and I think she's up there

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Speaker 3: directing things.

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Speaker 1: She's still controlling that, I think.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, definitely, yeah, But I mean we're just everyday Australians,

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Speaker 4: LU call Australians who unfortunately we're given a platform you

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Speaker 4: know that no one would want. We never wanted it.

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Speaker 4: But I just saw something there that well held the

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Speaker 4: whole world scene this, This is absolutely shocking. Who does this?

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Speaker 4: Who who is a sort of person does that to

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Speaker 4: their own children? You know. So we thought we need

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Speaker 4: to do something. And all these professionals were coming out

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Speaker 4: and saying, oh, it's a typical coercive control, and I said,

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Speaker 4: what's coers of control? What the hell are they talking about?

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Speaker 4: We didn't know anything about it. And then you know,

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Speaker 4: it was going, oh, well we need to change a

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Speaker 4: coercive control. Oh it's like a handbook, they're saying. So

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Speaker 4: that's when well, we really need to start a conversation.

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Speaker 4: Let's start talking, let's get people moving, let's try and

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Speaker 4: get a move and do something. And yeah, we thought,

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Speaker 4: well we'll do let's make a foundation and we'll start

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Speaker 4: raising money and we'll maybe do some education, but that

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Speaker 4: took a while to get come around.

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Speaker 1: And that's and we're going to talk about that in detail,

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Speaker 1: what you're doing, because it's impressive and such a testament

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Speaker 1: to the hammer and the children that they're never going

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Speaker 1: to be forgotten because of what you guys are doing.

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Speaker 1: But you made the point your average sort of knock

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Speaker 1: about Australians. I'm looking at that function and I think

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Speaker 1: you actually said that to me. You said, look, we

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Speaker 1: don't know why we're thrust into this. You're the center

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Speaker 1: of attention of the huge function. There was politicians coming up.

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Speaker 4: I think the general attention seekers.

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Speaker 1: Well that's a sense I got, Like you're sitting there

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking you two would just prefer to be

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Speaker 1: at the local pub, just having a quiet meal on

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Speaker 1: your own, rather than being the center of attention. But

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Speaker 1: you put yourself out there, and look, I've got to

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Speaker 1: say it's remarkable and I never cease to be amazed

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Speaker 1: with people that I came across during my career as

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Speaker 1: a homicide detective. But people I sit down in the

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Speaker 1: podcast because I think, you how do you get yourself

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Speaker 1: out of bed the next day after something like this? Happens.

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Speaker 1: But so you said family, and I suppose that brings

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Speaker 1: it on. You can't just forget the rest of the people.

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Speaker 2: That's right to me, that's selfish.

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Speaker 3: I know I'm I cry every day, but I think

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Speaker 3: you need to be there for the rest of the family.

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Speaker 2: Everyone. We all need each other's support.

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Speaker 1: Really, I see with you two still being together because

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Speaker 1: I've seen trauma and things in family before, and you

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Speaker 1: made the point so that I'm there there for Lloyd.

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Speaker 1: Lloyd's there for me. Sometimes I would imagine you're in

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Speaker 1: the dark place and Lloyd's got to be the strength,

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Speaker 1: and then vice versas. Is that how it plays out?

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Speaker 3: It does, and we both understand. You know, I'll say loud,

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Speaker 3: yeah it's not a good day to day, and he

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Speaker 3: gets it, and he just lets me be, talks to

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Speaker 3: me if I want to talk, or and he doesn't

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Speaker 3: look at me weird when I just cry for random reason.

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Speaker 1: I think that's understandable. I'll say, and I don't use

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Speaker 1: the word beautiful very often on I catch killers podcast,

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Speaker 1: but I think your relationship is beautiful. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying you're beautiful, Lloyd.

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Speaker 2: We can only take it take it so far.

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Speaker 1: But what I saw that day, that you were there

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Speaker 1: supporting each other and that it's you know, it was

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Speaker 1: an inspiration. And I've seen some ship in my life,

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Speaker 1: but that, to me, I thought, Wow, impressive people.

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Speaker 4: So I think the other thing too, Gary. It was

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Speaker 4: just before COVID too.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 4: So a couple of weeks out, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: the whole world is just shut down. We couldn't go

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Speaker 4: anywhere where. Everyone had to be locked indoors. So in

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Speaker 4: a way, that gave us time to grieve. We could

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Speaker 4: do what we wanted to do. What we did every

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Speaker 4: day would get up of a morning, we had a

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Speaker 4: couple of dogs and get the dogs and go walk.

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Speaker 4: We do a couple of k's and we just went

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Speaker 4: further and further and that's all. And we would walk, talk,

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Speaker 4: cry why is this happening? What are we going to do?

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Speaker 4: All those questions? We just sorted it out in the bush,

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Speaker 4: spotting Koala's wallaby here and there and having the dogs

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Speaker 4: with us. You know, so that gave us a bit

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Speaker 4: of solid I had no pressure. People couldn't come around

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Speaker 4: because everyone was locked down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, because I did get the

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Speaker 1: sense that you'd been thrusty put on this platform, and

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Speaker 1: then that would have been the recheck that you could

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Speaker 1: just step away and he heal yourself. And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that you say just doing the little thing getting up

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Speaker 1: each day, because I speak to people that suffer post

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Speaker 1: aumatic stress, whether it be military or police, and the

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Speaker 1: narrative seems to be, you've got to just keep doing something.

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Speaker 1: You've got to start, you've got to get up in

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Speaker 1: the morning, you've got to get a routine, You've got

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Speaker 1: to just keep stepping forward. Is that the sort of

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Speaker 1: thing that you guys have.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, Yeah, it does help to keep that that routine.

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Speaker 4: Nothing too Bob Atkinson. I got in touch with us,

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Speaker 4: but well very early in the piece, and I want

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Speaker 4: to know where you could help, and he said, look,

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Speaker 4: I've got this book. Can I give you this book

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Speaker 4: to read? And it was about trauma and it was

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Speaker 4: very good. It's sort of put a few things in

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Speaker 4: perspective for me, you know, learning about how people moved

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Speaker 4: on from their kids being killed by gang members and

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Speaker 4: you know whatever sort So I thought, well, yes, you've

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Speaker 4: got to be like John Wayne, You've actually just got

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Speaker 4: to get up, pack your bag up, get on that

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Speaker 4: horse and start riding and you know, continue on. You

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Speaker 4: don't get over it, but you've got to move on.

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Speaker 4: You can't just sit there in a hole and just think, well,

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Speaker 4: life's doom and gloom. Let's try and make it a

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Speaker 4: better world. Our wills collapse, but let's try and make

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Speaker 4: that it doesn't happen to anyone else. And the sad

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Speaker 4: thing was twelve months later Kelly Wilkinson went nearly the

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Speaker 4: same way. So we sort of.

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Speaker 1: Copycat it it must, and we've just come from one

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Speaker 1: that was on the north coast of New South Wales

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Speaker 1: recent times with the father's killed a two year old child.

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Speaker 1: I would suggest every time you hear that it would

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Speaker 1: reopen the pain again.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't. I cry every time and sadly it just

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Speaker 2: happens too often.

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Speaker 3: Way too often at the moment, but a woman every

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Speaker 3: four days I need.

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Speaker 4: To talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Well. I think we now as a society and it

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Speaker 1: takes a Politicians react to the voice of the people,

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Speaker 1: sometimes a bit slowly, but I think they're understanding now.

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Speaker 1: The media have got hold of it. Enough is enough

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Speaker 1: with what's going on with domestic and family violence. We've

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Speaker 1: got a circumvent. So we'll we'll talk during this podcast

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Speaker 1: about your thoughts on the way that can be done,

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Speaker 1: and we'll have an interesting discussion there. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: Hannah and the children first of all, because I think

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Speaker 1: they haven't been forgotten. They shouldn't be forgotten. Now, I've

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Speaker 1: got to say, in preparing for this and knowing everything

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Speaker 1: that I do about the matter, that Hannah was an

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Speaker 1: impressive person.

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Speaker 3: She was she had a smile that lit up a room,

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Speaker 3: and she would put her troubles behind and put everyone

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Speaker 3: else's in front. She was always there to help people

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Speaker 3: if she could, and people didn't know what was happening

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Speaker 3: with her. I knew a fair amount, and as it

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Speaker 3: got worse, I knew more because she would ring me

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Speaker 3: up and she'd just had to get it off a

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Speaker 3: chest and vent to somebody, and which made it very

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Speaker 3: difficult for me to then be civil when I would

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Speaker 3: have to face him. But yeah, Hannah. People loved her,

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Speaker 3: and we were surprised after she passed how many people

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Speaker 3: came up to us and said, oh, Hannah served me,

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Speaker 3: and she at athlete's foot. Hannah sold me shoes. I'll

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Speaker 3: never forget her. She was so bubbly and she wasn't perfect.

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Speaker 1: None of us are, so none of us are. But

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Speaker 1: that comes across in the way that she conducted herself.

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Speaker 1: So did you see that in her personality when she

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Speaker 1: was a younger child like that? Oh? Yes, she always shining.

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Speaker 2: Watch me, watch me, yea.

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Speaker 4: I loved the stage, any stage were doing a cartwheel

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Speaker 4: or a twirl.

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Speaker 2: And yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: And the kids, they were just wonderful. They had great futures.

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Speaker 1: Break it down with the kids three, four and six,

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Speaker 1: they start to show their personalities. Oh yeah, what do

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Speaker 1: we got? Break them down?

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Speaker 3: Ali was a real She was sassy, very sasy, very sassy,

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Speaker 3: like a grandma. Her and I now she would have

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Speaker 3: been eleven now we have been having some good arguments.

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Speaker 1: She was.

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Speaker 3: One day we were in the park and there was

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Speaker 3: it was a stork. It was in the distance, and

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Speaker 3: she said to me, there is a plover and I said,

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Speaker 3: I don't think it is hun I reckon.

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Speaker 1: I'd know, Nannie, she's checking you on.

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Speaker 3: And even her father, he'd storm out of the house

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Speaker 3: in a mood. She'd slam the door behind him and

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Speaker 3: don't come back.

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Speaker 4: Really, oh she was.

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Speaker 3: And he would FaceTime her after Hannah had left, and

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Speaker 3: Alia wouldn't want to speak to him. I would say,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to, but Hanrahud say yes she does,

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Speaker 3: and ali one night's talking to him, she goes, well, anyhow,

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Speaker 3: I got to go wash my hair. No one knows

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Speaker 3: where that came from.

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Speaker 4: She just came out.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it came from Grandma.

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Speaker 2: She was just a madam. And Leanna was a cheeky monkey.

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Speaker 4: She was a little monkey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I carried her everywhere up until the day she died.

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Speaker 3: And I used to say to her, how much longer

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Speaker 3: do I have to carry you for? And she'd say

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Speaker 3: till I'm seven. I have no idea what the significance

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Speaker 3: of seven was. Obviously to her that was a good age.

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Speaker 1: But she is not stupid. She was going to get

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Speaker 1: take the easy path as long as she could.

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Speaker 2: Before she had Ah always always conned.

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Speaker 4: And Trey, he was just a little ball of energy. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: his little legs going up and down and you kick

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Speaker 4: a football pass, you know for a three. He had skills. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: they all had their own little individual skills. Yeah. I

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Speaker 4: said Aliyah was smart. She was going to be a teacher,

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Speaker 4: and see that.

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Speaker 2: She was very, very smart, very She could read better

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Speaker 2: than a father.

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Speaker 4: That used to be so funny.

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Speaker 3: He'd be reading reading to the other two little ones,

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Speaker 3: and she'd come along and say, oh, you're not very.

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Speaker 2: Good at that.

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Speaker 1: I have to correct him.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I mean Leanna was just a fascinator.

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Speaker 4: Should change her clothes three or four times a day.

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Speaker 2: Fashion stuff, isn't that?

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Speaker 1: Isn't it fun at that age, at that such those

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Speaker 1: early ages that they're showing their personality and you can

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Speaker 1: see you can almost go okay and no where this

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Speaker 1: is going to cause grief during the teenage years. This

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Speaker 1: is going to be Yeah, but you sound like you're

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Speaker 1: very close too, Like what were the dynamics and the family,

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Speaker 1: Like how often did you see them?

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Speaker 3: And a couple of times a week. Yeah, I had

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Speaker 3: them every Friday and Saturdays.

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Speaker 2: We often spent with them.

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Speaker 4: On Saturday morning gym class. Who we used to do

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Speaker 4: body classes with him. Actually he was a very good

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Speaker 4: gym coach, but just a total lunatic but knew his stuff.

294
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Speaker 4: Always sort of said, you need to move, you need

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Speaker 4: to be flexible, you need to be able to get

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Speaker 4: up and down off of the ground, you know, especially

297
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Speaker 4: as you get older. Because he'd get old, people come

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Speaker 4: and say, I just want to lift weight. Someone build

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Speaker 4: up my biceps. I want to cut down, he said,

300
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Speaker 4: But can you get up and down off the ground

301
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Speaker 4: easy enough? Oh, what do I need to do that? Well,

302
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Speaker 4: you need to do that for your kids, for your grandkids.

303
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Speaker 4: So it was good in that way, and the stuff

304
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Speaker 4: that we did was good. I really enjoyed it. But

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Speaker 4: it was just his carry on. He expected everyone to

306
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Speaker 4: be like an a grade football you know, or a

307
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Speaker 4: top athlete. But we just wanted to go there and

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Speaker 4: spend a bit of time, do a bit of fun.

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Speaker 1: And couldn't didn't have that emotional intelligence to understand what

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Speaker 1: people wanted. Just before we moved past Hannah and the children.

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Speaker 1: And another thing that came out the generosity of spirit

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Speaker 1: of Hannah in that even when things were going bad,

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Speaker 1: she still saw the importance of the kids having a

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Speaker 1: connection with the father and even had empathy for the

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Speaker 1: father that he's missing the kids and all that was

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Speaker 1: that her nature, that empathy very much.

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Speaker 3: So she really felt for him. She wanted to make

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Speaker 3: sure he had fifty to fifty care of the children.

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Speaker 3: She really pushed for that. But he played games, he

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Speaker 3: wouldn't return them on time when always half an hour

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Speaker 3: late because no one could tell him what to do

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Speaker 3: with his children, and then he started to misbehave like

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Speaker 3: that and she couldn't trust him. He would go off

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Speaker 3: with the children, not answer his Phonechristmas Day. He'd kept

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Speaker 3: the kids ransom for a couple of hours prior to Christmas,

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Speaker 3: and I forbid him to come Christmas Day, but Lloyd

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Speaker 3: and Hannah talked me down and said, he's the father,

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Speaker 3: he's entitled to be there. He should be there. I

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Speaker 3: thought he'd lost his chance. In my books, you get

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Speaker 3: one chance. But yeah, they took me around and he

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Speaker 3: was very good on the Christmas Day, I must say.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting that you say that in the Lloyd

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Speaker 1: and Hannah saying, well, wish you would you say there's

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Speaker 1: no clear path, is there? No, it's a judgment.

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Speaker 4: I was about myself. If I was in his shoes,

336
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Speaker 4: I'd want to see my kids on Christmas Day. And

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00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 4: I thought, well, okay, he can come for a couple

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Speaker 4: of hours, I said. When I went around there to

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00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 4: see him, he said, well, come on in, and I said, no,

340
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 4: I don wan't come in. I said, I'm just telling

341
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Speaker 4: you now, you're welcome to come over for Christmas morning.

342
00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 4: So the kid's going over in their presence, you be

343
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Speaker 4: there at six o'clock and or whatever it was, And

344
00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,920
Speaker 4: I said, you know, have a couple of hours, and yeah,

345
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,920
Speaker 4: we couldn't get rid of him. He was there at eleven.

346
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Speaker 1: Hours doing the right thing. I think a warning sign,

347
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,359
Speaker 1: and we talk about this domestic and family violence, is

348
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 1: when any partner, whether it's a female or the male,

349
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Speaker 1: starts using kids as manipulation in the relationship, that pawns

350
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,960
Speaker 1: to him, and that to me, speaks so much about

351
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,000
Speaker 1: the quality of the person, no matter what's happened in

352
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Speaker 1: the relationship. The kids shouldn't be used as the pawns

353
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Speaker 1: in the relationship. And it's a warning sign, and it's

354
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Speaker 1: something that says something about the character of the person

355
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Speaker 1: that they're prepared to use the children as a bargainship.

356
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Speaker 4: Well, then the very next day, Boxing day, that's when

357
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,320
Speaker 4: he kidnapped Layana. So he was very good one day,

358
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,080
Speaker 4: but in the back of his mind, obviously he was

359
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,720
Speaker 4: thinking what he was going to do the next day.

360
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:49,600
Speaker 4: And I said, I'll take the kids down they got

361
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Speaker 4: skateboards and scooters for Christmas, take them down along the

362
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,159
Speaker 4: river and they can ride him down there. We said, oh,

363
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 4: we'll come too. Then he said can I come along?

364
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 4: Wouldn't mind coming? So we said yeah, and we said

365
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Speaker 4: to hand and said we'll come. She said no, no,

366
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,400
Speaker 4: it's fine. And of course, what as you do? He

367
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,040
Speaker 4: just grabs Leana, shucks her in the car and takes off,

368
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:08,680
Speaker 4: screaming out the window, saying, so you've done this, Hannah,

369
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 4: it's all your fault.

370
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 1: Okay. What when did he first become? When did they

371
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 1: first get together? And when did he start? When did

372
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 1: you first meet him? What were your impressions first? Up

373
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,159
Speaker 1: Rowan Baxa would say his name? What were the impressions

374
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,480
Speaker 1: when they got together?

375
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Speaker 3: I didn't like him at first because he was eleven

376
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:30,200
Speaker 3: years older.

377
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,520
Speaker 1: How old was he and how old.

378
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,240
Speaker 3: Was Hannah was twenty he was thirty one.

379
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,160
Speaker 1: That's a big life game, Yeah, I thought, so, life

380
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:38,880
Speaker 1: stage difference.

381
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,720
Speaker 3: And he was still living with his partner and child.

382
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,119
Speaker 3: But I don't know whether Hannah said it to pacify

383
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,639
Speaker 3: me or it's what she believed from him. It was

384
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Speaker 3: purely just for the child.

385
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 2: You know.

386
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,080
Speaker 3: The relationship was long over, which we found out later

387
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 3: wasn't so. Yeah, and then he did he won us over, right,

388
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,160
Speaker 3: He loved Bob.

389
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,600
Speaker 1: Does yeah, Like now you look back at it and

390
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 1: it was manipulative or was that? Do you think it

391
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 1: was genuine when he said love Bob new he was

392
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:13,400
Speaker 1: a perfect person for.

393
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I think he well, he was out to

394
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 3: win us over. But he would invite us to dinners

395
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 3: and places, and Hanna would even say to me, I

396
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,680
Speaker 3: didn't want you to come. I also don't ask him like,

397
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 3: but he would, so he eventually won us over. I

398
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 3: must say we thought he was lovely and we thought

399
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 3: he generally loved her.

400
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 1: What about Hannah's brother Nathan? How was Nathan at the time?

401
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:39,199
Speaker 1: What was his sense of.

402
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 2: He would have been eighteen.

403
00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, he didn't particularly like him, and they clashed

404
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,639
Speaker 3: a bit, quite a bit. Because that's very good physically,

405
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 3: like in gymnastics and trampolining, and that was one thing

406
00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 3: that Rowan always wanted to be like that. He was

407
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 3: very good at lifting weights and things, but not flexible,

408
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 3: couldn't do somersaults and flips and things.

409
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,199
Speaker 1: And so he would a pride of himself on these

410
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 1: physicality and then young Nate it didn't appreciate it and

411
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 1: can do this and do that, and.

412
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,400
Speaker 4: Nearly the same way. Can it nearly run the speed

413
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 4: and it could do flips, yeah, handing basults and stuff

414
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,400
Speaker 4: like that. So that's what he wanted to do. So

415
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 4: he used them to help coach him and.

416
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 1: So he could get it right okay, And.

417
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 2: He was quite a show pony rant.

418
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 3: He'd be on the beach and once Hannah actually taught

419
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,440
Speaker 3: him how to do a back flip and he would

420
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,280
Speaker 3: do him on the beach and think he was hot,

421
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 3: hot stuff, and it'd be funny, and he'd say to

422
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 3: that you should do it, and now I'd be don't

423
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 3: need to And then in the end that would do

424
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,400
Speaker 3: it and it would be better, and you could see

425
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 3: he really regretted he'd pushed.

426
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 1: To do it. Interesting, interesting dynamics. Very So how long

427
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,439
Speaker 1: were they together before they got married and what was

428
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:57,160
Speaker 1: the progression of the relationship.

429
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 3: They were together Probably four years before they married, and

430
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 3: that was he was prepared to propose to He actually

431
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,680
Speaker 3: had a ring hidden in my cupboarde probably twelve months

432
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 3: prior to that. Didn't it before he actually proposed because

433
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 3: Nad ended up getting engaged and he didn't want to

434
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 3: follow on NAT's foots. It was all the thing. So

435
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 3: he held off.

436
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 1: Did you, like, you have a relationship, You've got your daughter,

437
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,119
Speaker 1: she's twenty. You're thinking, okay, well, maybe it'll just peter out.

438
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: You can't tell them what to do, so you've got

439
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 1: to let it run its natural course. When it got

440
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 1: to the fact, okay, well they're making a commitment to

441
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 1: be together now in a marriage. Did that cause you

442
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,880
Speaker 1: concern or did you think, okay, well maybe it will work.

443
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 1: What was going through your mind?

444
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 2: I thought it would work at that stage. I think

445
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: he wasn't showing his true colors.

446
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, we didn't see any of those warnings side red flags.

447
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 4: I think you know, occasionally he had a road rage

448
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 4: fit while we're with him, and I thought, geez, got

449
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 4: a sharp temper. I didn't even need to crack off

450
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 4: at those people for that. You know, we'll get out

451
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 4: of the car and kick the door, you know, just

452
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 4: get in the car, mate, let it go.

453
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: Well again, the little little warning.

454
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 4: Side they were the things. Then further down the track,

455
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 4: three or four years down the track, I look back

456
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 4: and go, well, ship, I should have seen that. Yeah,

457
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 4: there was little signs there. You know, there's rage that

458
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 4: just came out. And if he got beaten at the

459
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 4: gym doing awad, he'd find some excuse why he got beaten.

460
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,600
Speaker 4: All the other one didn't count properly, didn't do their numbers,

461
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 4: so he was always he had to win. One of

462
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 4: those people had to win at everything, and even playing

463
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 4: with the kids to be down the beach, came to

464
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 4: race and you'd have to trip them over and push

465
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 4: them over and beat them.

466
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 1: That's a shallow victory.

467
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 4: Come on, let him win once in a while.

468
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 1: Well maybe, and you know what we're what we're talking through,

469
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: and I you know, I think maybe people take these

470
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 1: things away. We talk red flags. We see them now hindsight,

471
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful thing. But we talked and this is

472
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: later on where they manipulate the used children as a pawn.

473
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: But if you've got someone that's road rage, I've never

474
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: understood road rage. And people think I'm a cranky person,

475
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: but I haven't got time to get caught up in

476
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: road rage. And I'm always astounded why some people just

477
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 1: lose their shit because someone's made a mistake driving the car.

478
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 4: That's right.

479
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: So if people are listening, if you're looking at someone

480
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,880
Speaker 1: and there's road rage, will have a deeper looking what's

481
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: going on. There so they get married. The wedding passed

482
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: without incident.

483
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 3: He was very involved in the wedding. That shocked me.

484
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 3: Most men are quite happy to turn up on the day.

485
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 3: Leave me out of it, don't you know, I'll turn up.

486
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: I put my hand up for that one.

487
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 2: Oh no.

488
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 3: He was had to taste all the food, he picked

489
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 3: the venue.

490
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 4: All of it, and from ten to go elate because

491
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 4: it would have been not cheaper for us. Yeah, here's

492
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 4: ten K. You're going to America, get married over there

493
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 4: or whatever. No, no, no, we want to have this

494
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 4: big night.

495
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: And he doesn't. And I don't know him. I'm only

496
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: trying to get a picture of him. But he doesn't

497
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: strike me as a person that it would be for

498
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: his own sense wanting to be concerned about the wedding.

499
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 1: It's almost like he's putting on a show.

500
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 2: It was.

501
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 3: It was, especially in hindsight looking back, it was. It

502
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 3: was a big production too.

503
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: Look look how much I love. Look what a beautiful

504
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: person I am. I'm a romantic and yeah, the wedding's

505
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: just got to be perfect.

506
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 3: Until he opened up the wishing well the next day.

507
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 3: Oh geez, such and such didn't give us much, did

508
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 3: they oh, do you know how much they're worth? And

509
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 3: they didn't give us much.

510
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: As Okay explained.

511
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 4: Is that, Look, you had the wedding down at Kingscliff,

512
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 4: so people had to travel down spend it. That's against there,

513
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 4: you know, so you've been graced by their presence, You've

514
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 4: asked them down. You think you're not going to get

515
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 4: a whole a lot because you know you've made them travel, spend,

516
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 4: spend money, and then spend more money on you.

517
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: Well that might that might be another warning sign her

518
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: own rage and not gratitude for gifts given. Like that's

519
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: that's weird, isn't it? It certainly is. Was there concerns

520
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: that his demeanor or did the relationship change when they

521
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: got married in that I've got you now, I don't

522
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 1: have to impress, not straight away.

523
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,919
Speaker 3: And Hannah was pregnant when they got married, as it

524
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 3: turned out, by accident. Actually, well she was up for

525
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: a new script of the pill and she said, he's

526
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 3: really old and I'm young. I'm not going to reknew

527
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 3: that the pill. She was wanting to have children and

528
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 3: she has I'm not going to feel pregnant that quick anyway, Well,

529
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 3: she was fourteen, so she was fourteen weeks.

530
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 2: Pregnant when they married.

531
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 3: And yeah, so Aliyah came along and things weren't too bad.

532
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 3: He was very proud of Aliyah. But again, he was

533
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 3: one of those fathers that everyone thought was wonderful. He'd

534
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: changed nappies when he was out. People would see him

535
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: do that. Didn't do a thing at home.

536
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, a show pony that coming across. The other

537
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: kids came along.

538
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 3: Hannah was pregnant with the Leah Leana. Sorry when they

539
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: opened the gym, and that's when things really started spirally.

540
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: Now and what I understand, they opened the gym together

541
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: and people gravitated towards Hannah. But rowan that it was

542
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: hard to get clients because of his demeanor or his

543
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: lack of emotional intelligence or understanding of human nature.

544
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was like a drill sergeant at first.

545
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 4: Yes, they had a lot of clients. Everyone came. You know,

546
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 4: we had a big open day and he signed up

547
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 4: a lot of people. But unfortunately, he said, with that

548
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 4: drill sergeant attitude and not giving leeway, mate, do the challenges.

549
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 4: Even you don't get the big, big people in and

550
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 4: you know, train them down, you know, you know they're

551
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 4: going to come for twelve or pay for twelve weeks. Hey,

552
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 4: if they don't come, they don't come. I know you

553
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 4: didn't like that if you paid your money to have

554
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 4: an excuse not to be there. Yeah, which was just silly,

555
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,439
Speaker 4: you know, like he still had numbers. You get him

556
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 4: paid for it. What doesn't matter, you know, Let's just

557
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 4: move on, you know, let them go and then do

558
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 4: it again and get more people in. I think we

559
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 4: worked it out right near the end. He didn't care

560
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 4: about that. He didn't care if the gym sort of

561
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 4: failed as much because it was his gym. He could

562
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 4: train when he wanted to train, and he could train

563
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 4: however he wanted to train. No one could tell him

564
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 4: what to do and how to do it.

565
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: So he was king, Yeah, I get a sense, and yeah,

566
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: he wanted to be the man like as in my gym,

567
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: look at me. Everyone that comes in is got to

568
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: look at him. And I've seen them in Jim, those

569
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: type of things, I reckon they're wankers that the struc around.

570
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 2: No one can be better than him. It was his gym.

571
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 2: He had to be top dog.

572
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 4: He had a problem with people who actually had earned

573
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 4: a lot of money, you know, who had money. Oh,

574
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 4: how did they get all that money?

575
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: Oh?

576
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 4: They should, you know. But he would like to, you know,

577
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 4: crawl up to them and get their money off them

578
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 4: and get give them vouchers or get to go to

579
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 4: their restaurants or stuff like that for free. But he

580
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 4: was always always hated people who had money because he

581
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 4: never had it. And when he got money, he was

582
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 4: just instead of paying bills. Oh, I'll shout coffee or

583
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 4: come on around, and he'd splash it around. And you've

584
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 4: got bills to pay first. And we'd walk out to

585
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 4: their house and Chandler and to build these letters hanging

586
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 4: out a letterbox, and we'd get them out and walk

587
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 4: in and go, I think you got some bills here. Oh,

588
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 4: and you can see they've been sitting there for a while.

589
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 4: I don't worry about that. If you don't look at them,

590
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: you don't need to worry about them. Hey, hang on,

591
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 4: you need to pay your bills.

592
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes sense. Look, we're not psychologists, obviously, but

593
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: it's starting to paint a picture, isn't it. It's this bravado.

594
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: It's very narcissistic in the way everything's about him. And yeah, again,

595
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: warning signs if people are looking at it like someone

596
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: that's It seems to me like he didn't want to

597
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: actually pay his due. Is he just wanted to reap

598
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: the rewards. And I want the people to look up

599
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: to him. And he's the man. He runs a gym,

600
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: he's got money, he's got life, he's got this beautiful wife,

601
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 1: he's got these kids, perfect relationship. It's a lot of

602
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: just pretense for us.

603
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 4: And that's what he went very well on social media.

604
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, photos of having a great time with the family,

605
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 4: look at us and he had of looking good or whatever.

606
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 4: But he was very prudish though with her, like you

607
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 4: wear a bikini down the beach, but wouldn't let her

608
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 4: walk off the beach up to with the showers that

609
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 4: have a shower of shed to put something on again.

610
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 3: But he could photograph her in the bikini and post

611
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 3: it on social media.

612
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, but that that shows and it's interesting. I didn't

613
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: think the conversation gave this way, But I'm fine. That fascinating.

614
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: The sense of the type of person he is, that

615
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: jealousy is just is shown there. Like if you're with someone,

616
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: you love someone, you celebrate their joys and all that.

617
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: But he wanted Hannah's mind. I owner, and I don't

618
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 1: want anyone looking at her away from me like that.

619
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 3: That's what she dreaded his birthday every year because he

620
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 3: would just be unbearable because a lot of the boys

621
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 3: would have a dig geez, mate, you're punching above your weight?

622
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: What are you doing with her?

623
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 3: And every year someone would say it, and that would

624
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 3: be oh, she dreaded it.

625
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 4: Really, I think that's where it was going because he

626
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 4: was getting older and slower. He was starting to worry

627
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 4: that Hannah was a lot younger, and then the things

628
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 4: started getting more He started more controlling as it went

629
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 4: from there. If you look, I suppose you sat down

630
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 4: to the timeline and I reckon, Like su said, every

631
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 4: birthday he'd get cranky and cranky, he's losing a bit

632
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 4: more hair, and.

633
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: Which Hannah would point out and he didn't like she

634
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 3: would find little.

635
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: So he had this like, to me, sounds like a

636
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: very insecure, fragile ego. But it was all Bravardo. But

637
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: there wasn't much substance under scratch scratch the surface, and

638
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: so everything was sort of attacking his sense. He's deluded

639
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: sense of self worth. Yes, yeah, well again, if people

640
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: are listening. We know people of this type, and you know,

641
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: if the relationships not right, don't don't go down that path.

642
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 4: Just like to say, people do know someone like that

643
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 4: who's working away, don't be a bystander. You stand up

644
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 4: and say, hey, let's go and have a conversation, let's

645
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 4: have a cup of coffee, let's sit down and have

646
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 4: a beer, whatever, But talk to them about it. It's

647
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 4: not cool. You know. We don't want society going down

648
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 4: the path that we're heading now where there's not a

649
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 4: really fair relationship anymore. People are just having to go

650
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 4: they going to be king or they want to do this.

651
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 4: What's happened to respect?

652
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: That? That respect is something? And I think and with

653
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: the conversation we had the other other day, Lord, we're

654
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: talking about you men have got to sit down with

655
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: other men and mate the way you're treating your wife

656
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 1: or that. It's not because invariably we stand back and go, oh,

657
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: it's sad business. This is the male way of dealing

658
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: with things. Like women get into the nitty gritty of

659
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: it in the conversations, but whereas men just go, it's

660
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: not real good unless we're confronted with it. Where we

661
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: have to step in. We tend to avoid those those conversations,

662
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, sometimes things can be circumvented

663
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: if people get in there and call someone out for it.

664
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 4: He did have He did have a dig at me

665
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 4: when Hannah left. He said, mate, what didn't you come

666
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: to me and say something? I said, I couldn't. I said,

667
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 4: I tried, We tried it. I said, every time we

668
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 4: try and talk to you, I said, you just go

669
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 4: off the handle. So I think if you've got someone

670
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 4: like that, that's when you've got a red flag and

671
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 4: they really need to get help. So you've got to

672
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 4: get them to a professional person to try and help.

673
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: To get help. When did it get to the point

674
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: when and soe you said, Hannah started confiding in you.

675
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: When did it get to the point where you guys thought, Okay,

676
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 1: this is we've got problems here. This is getting out

677
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: of control.

678
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 3: After Leana was born, it was starting to about and

679
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: Hannah was getting ready to leave, and then she felt

680
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 3: pregnant with Trey, which I think she was in denial

681
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: because no one found out she was pregnant till after

682
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,239
Speaker 3: four months, and I think she was not wanting to

683
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 3: be And it was and that trapter again, especially when

684
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 3: he found out he was having a son.

685
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I could imagine the ego would have gone in

686
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: the wayver drive. Yeah, my son's going to be everything

687
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: I couldn't be.

688
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Yeah. He was hard on Trey. Trey couldn't

689
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 3: be a silk couldn't. Yeah, and Trey was a mummy's boy.

690
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: You know, he's only little.

691
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: But again, that's a personality. I can see the mile away.

692
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: You're going to be bigger, stronger, Yeah. Yeah, Okay, So

693
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: stuck in that situation. Then again, this is just the life,

694
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: isn't it. This is the way things roll. And you

695
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: can understand Hannah would be trying to hang on to

696
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: some degree of hope that we can turn things around.

697
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: You've got three kids now. People are vulnerable in the

698
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: relationship like that, especially women, to walk away break up

699
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: with the husband. And you've got three kids to look at.

700
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,479
Speaker 3: And you told your a bad mother, and you're going

701
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 3: to damage those children. You have no idea what damage

702
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 3: you'll do to those children to take them away from me?

703
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: Is that the that's the narrative that he was feeding

704
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 1: there and into a good person that can be soul destroying.

705
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 4: She was a broken, broken person. When she came to us,

706
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 4: she'd lost her strength, Like you know, she she made

707
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 4: that comment before she got killed. You know, I am

708
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 4: a strong woman. I'm better for being a strong woman

709
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 4: now and I'll get over this. But when she first

710
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 4: came down our house, I could see she wasn't the

711
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 4: strong Hannah that we used to know. He had beaten

712
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 4: her down over a couple of years, and you know,

713
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,919
Speaker 4: just that constant barrage of look, move your fat ass,

714
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,439
Speaker 4: or you know, you need to lose a bit more weight,

715
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 4: you know, and come home and say, oh, this place

716
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 4: is a.

717
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: Mess, attacking her self, estume every chance, and that that's

718
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: where and when we talk coercive control, that that's very

719
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: thing that we talk about. Yeah, beating it down doesn't

720
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: necessarily have to be physical violence because it's but that

721
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: emotional that control. So you saw her change from that.

722
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: What age are we talking now?

723
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 3: What's she was thirty one when he killed her, so

724
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 3: probably twenty seven twenty eight things were progressively and its

725
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 3: getting worse.

726
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: It should be such a great time in life, you know,

727
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,320
Speaker 1: that should be Yeah, at that time, she's got the

728
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: beautiful kids and everything. When did she decide that she

729
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 1: had to take a step step away.

730
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,959
Speaker 2: She was well before Trey was born.

731
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 3: She was kind of she'd made up in her mind

732
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 3: she was going, but it took another three years before

733
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 3: she actually had the guts. I suppose, and she knew.

734
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: I kept saying to it, you can come home anytime.

735
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 3: Oh mom, there's no room, And I made my bed,

736
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 3: I'm gonna lie in it, and I'm like, you don't,

737
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 3: you don't, And it was hard.

738
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: It saddens me because she just comes across as such

739
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: a beautiful human being and I can see all those

740
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 1: emotions from a decent, kind, nice human being, and yeah,

741
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: she's stuck in that situation. So how did she actually

742
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: muster up the courage to say this is it?

743
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: It took quite a while.

744
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: We prepared for a bit over six months we were preparing,

745
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 3: Wing got bunk beds in and Hannah actually started buying

746
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 3: some clothes she was never allowed to wear and screwing

747
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 3: them at our house. And she got her passport and

748
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 3: the kid's birth certificates and things which she was slowly

749
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: leaving at our house.

750
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 2: So she had us safe.

751
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: And there would be quite a few times she said

752
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 3: to us, Okay, this weekend, I'm leaving, and at the time,

753
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: she was starting to suspect he had listening devices in

754
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 3: the house because he took her away one weekend.

755
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: Had it, oh this romantic.

756
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any evidence of it, but

757
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put it past someone like that with that

758
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: sort of obsession, that would have monitored her in some way.

759
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 3: They found eight iPhones in the house after Hannah left,

760
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 3: strategically put.

761
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 1: Around Yeah, that's scary, isn't.

762
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: It is?

763
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 3: And well she knew this one time before she left.

764
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 3: It was Torrian bro which is actually coming up. She'd

765
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 3: qualified to compete, which is quite a I think, and

766
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 3: he hadn't. He wanted to go individually, he hadn't qualified,

767
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 3: and she had for a team. So this was for

768
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 3: Torrium Pro Big CrossFit Games, and he hadn't qualified individually,

769
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: so he decided he'd be in her team, and she

770
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 3: didn't want him, And she was apologizing to one of

771
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 3: the team members while driving her home, saying, I'm sorry,

772
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: he's such an asshole.

773
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah blah blah.

774
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 3: Blah, And she got home and he had a go

775
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 3: d He knew what she said, and the excuse was

776
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 3: that Aliah must have been playing with Hannah's phone and

777
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 3: somehow sent it to him, and Hannah knew that was

778
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 3: so he dropped out of the team, thinking that would

779
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,280
Speaker 3: mess it up for everybody. Hannah was at the gym

780
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,479
Speaker 3: taking the five o'clock class in the morning. Hannah got home,

781
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 3: him and the children had disappeared and wouldn't answer his phone,

782
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 3: so she was hysterical. Rang me I came over and

783
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 3: she thought he may take the kids to the coast.

784
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 3: That was their happy place and our son and daughter

785
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 3: in law live at the coast. So Hannah rang Stacy,

786
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 3: our daughter in law, to say, could you keep an

787
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: eye out see if you see him? But none of

788
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 3: us realized Nat was back from the mines. He'd gotten

789
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: back a day early. Nat had answered the phone and anyway,

790
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 3: when Rowan finally came home, he said to Hannah, I

791
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 3: can't believe you called your mother and your brother. So

792
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 3: if he'd checked her phone, she died Stacy's number, but

793
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 3: he knew Hannah had been speaking to her brother.

794
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: Okay, so he was doing cover like trying to.

795
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: Listen and turning up at places where he shouldn't know,

796
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 3: and she was and.

797
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: Was there any suggestions so of getting police involvement in

798
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: this point in time, or did she was a plan

799
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: just to Okay, I'm out of here and I'm living

800
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: with my parents, or I'm going here, but our relationship

801
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: is finished. There was no involvement from police at that

802
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: point in.

803
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 2: I didn't want to. She would scare.

804
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 3: She was so scared any involvement would antagonize him and

805
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 3: make things worse. So and even when she had said

806
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 3: she was thinking of leaving to him it was for

807
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: a break, she would never say it was forever, okay.

808
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: And I understand that because I don't think she would

809
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: have been able to walk out the door if she

810
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,439
Speaker 1: said I've never seen you again.

811
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 3: Oh no, because he said there was no way she

812
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 3: was to take his children, and that wasn't happening. But eventually,

813
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 3: after a lot of mistries, she was at the gym

814
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: early one morning and she was talking to Nicki and

815
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: lou two of her close friends, and she was talking

816
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 3: about she's got to go, how bad it was, and

817
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 3: then Nicki just said, well, is he at work this morning?

818
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 3: Because he was not going to work either so that

819
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 3: he could keep an eye on her, And Hannah said,

820
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 3: he's actually gone today, and that Nicki said right, Okay,

821
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 3: we don't need to do our gym class. Let's go,

822
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 3: and Nicki kind of took control. Hannah went into the house.

823
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 3: The kids were allowed she went and got a lear

824
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,959
Speaker 3: out of school, and the kids were allowed to pick

825
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 3: two toys each and she left the house with three

826
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 3: garbage bags for the lot of them. And they left

827
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 3: Hannah's car at the local McDonald's down in Nicki's house

828
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 3: because he didn't know where Nicki left lived, and spent

829
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 3: the night at Nicki's house.

830
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 4: Okay, just in case if he had a tracker or something.

831
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: On the car.

832
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: Knowing the way that you guys have described him and

833
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: what we understand, he would have been in a fit

834
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: of rage at this. It was just he would have

835
00:40:58,160 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: just lost his shit.

836
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: Over the He was in a rage, and then it

837
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: resulted into sobbing uncontrollably.

838
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: He was ringing me all day. Do you know where

839
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: she is?

840
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 3: He was angry at first, and I was saying I

841
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 3: have no idea, and that he would ring me crying, Oh.

842
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: This is killing me. I need my children.

843
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: I mean. One of the many forums that have covered

844
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: Hannah's story, there was talk with how many people he

845
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: would phone and just cry and I think it might

846
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: have been said it on one of the shows that

847
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: he did. He found out that he'd phone people just

848
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 1: on the periphle and just tell them, making himself out

849
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: to be the good guy, the victim.

850
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 4: That's right. He played the victim very well, but he

851
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 4: was the victim.

852
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 3: People he disliked and hadn't spoken to for ages. He

853
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 3: ran to tell them his side of the story.

854
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: There's that. There's that clip that has been publicly shown

855
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,879
Speaker 1: where he and Hannah are pulled over in the car

856
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: and the cars Reggie, which put my hand up, since

857
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: they've taken those stickers off those windows. Yes, bring back

858
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 1: the stickers. It'll save us all a lot of money.

859
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: But they were just not good at that. That would

860
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 4: have been probably the second or third time that time, right, Okay, Yeah,

861
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 4: he just let it go. And it was always her

862
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 4: car too, so they had two cars. And then of

863
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 4: course you would have seen that in the footage if

864
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 4: you picked it up. He goes, but it's her car.

865
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just the way he reacted was just it

866
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: made me cringe watching it. And that's seeing him sort

867
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: of unfiltered. This is not the pretense he's put in

868
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: on and just yeah, not we're in it together where

869
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 1: it was your fault you did this.

870
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 4: And just he's your problem. Yeah, but what he didn't

871
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 4: realize he's the driver. Yeah, he's got to check that.

872
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 4: So he got fined, not her, And of course we

873
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 4: got called and said, oh, can you come and pay

874
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 4: you pay the rent.

875
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: Was there any concern of physical violence? Did she ever

876
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 1: say that he physically assaulted her?

877
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 3: Well, in my point of view was that I didn't

878
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 3: think it was physical violence. But he did break her

879
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 3: watch and he did throw her phone across the room

880
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 3: and things like that, which I have since been informed

881
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 3: that that is a form of physical violence. But he

882
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 3: never really hit her. He slammed a gate into her

883
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 3: leg when she was heavily pregnant with Leana because she

884
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 3: disrespected him. But he hadn't actually physically and that's what

885
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 3: she kept saying to me. But he's never hit me.

886
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: And therein lies the misconception that with all these domestic

887
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: violence situations and that yeah, it's got to be physical,

888
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: that we've got to see the woman with a black

889
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: eye too. What happened, she walked into a door. That

890
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: type of narraty.

891
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 4: That's what hit us so hard. Was why didn't we

892
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 4: know about this? Why do we know this? Coercive control

893
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 4: is so dangerous?

894
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: That coercive control and speculation here we're just sort of brainstorming.

895
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 1: But he seems like such a manipulation that he knows

896
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: that if he slapped her all there was a bloody

897
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: nose or a black eye, police are going to be involved.

898
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: He's going to be charged, he's going to be shamed,

899
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: he's going to be the wife beater.

900
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 2: All that he knew I would come after him.

901
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I'd say there'll be a lot of fit

902
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: mates it might come after.

903
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: Right, Ok, yeah, so we're scared in kindsight.

904
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 3: I look back now, I actually said to him on

905
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 3: their wedding day, if you hurt my daughter, I will

906
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: hunt you down. There's no way you can hide. And

907
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 3: I don't even know why I said that.

908
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, therein lies and the coersive is so manipulative,

909
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: Like it's not the dumb bloke that's lost his temper

910
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: and slaps someone and then gets charged, And it's control control.

911
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: It's about your image, the perceptions, everyone's perception.

912
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 4: And when you look at it, at his personality and

913
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 4: his demeanor. We've alsot of discussed about him. Yes, he

914
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 4: lost his shit, So he wasn't an irrational thinker. If

915
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 4: the kid one of the.

916
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 2: Kids, no lateral thinking?

917
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 4: Was that no lateral thinking, or that if one of

918
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 4: the kids hurt themselves he couldn't handle it. If Hannah

919
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 4: wasn't there, and if he was involved in playing a

920
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 4: game they hurt himselves, well he just lost it and

921
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 4: he would ring Sue. I think you know Aliah needs stitches.

922
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 4: You know, I threw a cushion at her and she's

923
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 4: running down the hall and she it hit her and

924
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 4: she hit her head in the door jam. You know,

925
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 4: he just oh, I got blood everywhere. What can I do?

926
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 3: I got I arrived over there, he rang me, I

927
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: left work, got over there. He's sitting on the floor rocking,

928
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 3: crying while the pool kids just holding something on her head.

929
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 3: So yeah, I had to take control of the pool

930
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 3: kid because he said to me, can you come?

931
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: Can you come?

932
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 3: Because Hannah was at the gym, and he said, she

933
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 3: only wants you because she wanted mum. But Hannah wasn't there,

934
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 3: so then she wanted me.

935
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: Okay, So Hannah's moved out with the kids, stayed at

936
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: the friend's place. When did make an official. Was she

937
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: staying with you guys or what?

938
00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 4: What was it?

939
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 3: She the next next day moved into our place. That

940
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 3: was a Saturday.

941
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: Signing the sulky phone calls from him.

942
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yep.

943
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,759
Speaker 3: So she moved in on the Saturday with us. And

944
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 3: then this Sunday she was talking to him on the

945
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: phone and she said to me, I'm going to go

946
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 3: and have a coffee with him, And I'm like, are

947
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 3: you sure? Yeah, yeah, it'll be all right. So anyway,

948
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 3: they went and had a coffee. Next thing, she comes

949
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 3: back with him and it's like, oh, let's all have

950
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 3: tie for dinner, and Lord and I are looking at

951
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 3: each other, and anyway, Lloyd and him went out and

952
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 3: bought the tie. And I said to Hena, are you okacious? No,

953
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 3: I'm not, she said, but I'll go home with him

954
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 3: tonight and then in the morning when he's at the gym,

955
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 3: I'm going for good. So I don't know why she

956
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 3: felt she had to go back that night and she

957
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 3: was begging me to go to the gym so that

958
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 3: things look normal.

959
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: And yeah, she.

960
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 3: Went home that night with the kids, and the next morning,

961
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 3: as soon as he left at five in the morning,

962
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 3: she was up and drove down to her brother's house

963
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 3: and stayed there for about three days.

964
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: That's again it goes in and you talked about the

965
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,400
Speaker 1: self esteem being chipped away with all the negative comments,

966
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: that he'd throw it there and he still had control

967
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: that just come back for one night, we can talk

968
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: about it, and you can see how people weaken to that.

969
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 3: Well, while she was out of brother's, she just put

970
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 3: the kids down to have a sleep and he rang

971
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: her and Nat turned around and she's picking all this

972
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 3: stuff up frantically, and he said, what are you doing.

973
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: She said, I've got to go home. He said, I

974
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 3: have to go home. I've got to bring the kids hi,

975
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: And I said, no, you don't have to go anywhere,

976
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,319
Speaker 3: and he kept her there. But I liken it to

977
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 3: almost like an alcoholic the victims. I could hear Hannah

978
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: on the phone to him, and I could hear her weakening,

979
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 3: almost like you have to have that drink.

980
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 2: It was. And I would say to.

981
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,799
Speaker 3: Her, if he rings you and you feel you've got

982
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 3: to go back to him, wring me or Nikki and

983
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,479
Speaker 3: we will almost talk you down.

984
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: But I think that's that's a valid point. So I

985
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 1: think they are broken down they're almost addicted to that

986
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: toxic drama that has been their life.

987
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: That's right control.

988
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 4: What they say is gospel, what they think, but they

989
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 4: don't realize because they've been beaten down and it's been

990
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 4: drummed into them. You're no good. You can't live without me.

991
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 4: The kids can't live without me. They need their father.

992
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 4: You know, I am the best you know and where you.

993
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: Go and everything that I understand about Hannah tells me

994
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: she's not that person. But that's how destructive that type

995
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: of manipulation can be.

996
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 4: What happened was at the end is she finally put

997
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 4: that wall up. She learned to put that wall up

998
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 4: and say, no, I'm a strong woman. I'm not going

999
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 4: back to you. You're never going to have me. And

1000
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 4: I don't ever think she ever said that to him,

1001
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 4: because there's always we'll just let it, give it six

1002
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 4: months and by then we're hoping you'd meet someone else

1003
00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 4: and move on. But she got to that point and

1004
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 4: I think he just started spiraling. Then he realized he

1005
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 4: wasn't going to get it back. Yeah, all the kids.

1006
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 4: So then that's when he formulated his plan. It was

1007
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 4: all pre meditated. It wasn't a spur of the moment

1008
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 4: sort of thing. It was pre meditated what he did.

1009
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,760
Speaker 1: Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind

1010
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: the headlines of a gang more or shooting, Then you

1011
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 1: need to listen to crim City. Join crime reporters Mark

1012
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncover the details of

1013
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: crimes unfolding on Sydney streets and share the stories that

1014
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: don't make the papers. The latest season of crim City

1015
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: is out now. Listen early and ad free on Crime

1016
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 1: x plus on Apple Podcasts Today Police Involvement. Then, I

1017
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,959
Speaker 1: was heartened by the fact that there was some good

1018
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: commentary about when Hannah went to the police, that someone

1019
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: fully understood what was going on, because I cringe, and

1020
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: I think we're at the point where we've improved with

1021
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: policing a talk across the country where someone walks in, well,

1022
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: there's nothing we can really do. People are starting to

1023
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: understand the dramatic effect that domestic and family violence. But

1024
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: do you want to tell us about the when she

1025
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: went to the police, and she was very buoyed by

1026
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 1: the fact that the police officer seemed to understand and care.

1027
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 2: She certainly was.

1028
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 3: I wanted her to go and get a DVO as

1029
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 3: we call them in Queensland out on him the day

1030
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 3: she came back and moved into our place, and she

1031
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 3: was so scared that would antagonize him, but I managed

1032
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 3: to talk her into at least as at least go

1033
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 3: up to the police station, talk to the police, see

1034
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 3: what you can do when you know, and if you

1035
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 3: have a case. And he got a lovely young policewoman

1036
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 3: at the front desk who I suspect may have been

1037
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 3: a victim at one stage in her life herself, so

1038
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 3: she really understood what was going on. And Anna was

1039
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 3: telling her about being forced to have sex every night

1040
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 3: and she was like, oh honey, that's rape. You know,

1041
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 3: you could have him for rape, and she was writing

1042
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 3: it all down and she was so wonderful. She agreed

1043
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 3: not to do a DVO, though she did tell Hannah

1044
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 3: she had plenty of grounds to take one out. And

1045
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 3: this police woman also worked at police beat at the

1046
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 3: local shopping center and she would pop in and check

1047
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 3: it on Hannah at work regularly to see how she was.

1048
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 3: And Hannah came home after that first visit and said

1049
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 3: to me, she believed everything I said, Mum, and I'm

1050
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 3: not going crazy, and you know I have I can

1051
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 3: charge him with rape, and she was just.

1052
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: It's interesting that that was Hannah's thought process. And I

1053
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: can understand someone if they'd been beaten down like Hannah

1054
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: had been and just manipulated, you start thinking, am I

1055
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 1: just making this up? Am I just? Am I looking

1056
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: for something more in the relationship. That's just not normal.

1057
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 3: But you've been told that too. Yeah, yeah, perpetrators And

1058
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 3: he was good at it. He would do something, and

1059
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 3: if Hannah then bought it up, it was, oh, that's

1060
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 3: not what happened. No, I didn't do that.

1061
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: So then you start a second guest. Yeah, okay, So

1062
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: the situation where it got to the point where Hannah

1063
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: was killed and three children were killed, was there something

1064
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: that was a catalyst for that that you think looking

1065
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: at what happened, what stirred that on?

1066
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 3: All I can think of is we'd had a great

1067
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 3: on the Saturday. We'd had a great family day down

1068
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 3: at SeaWorld, the whole family, and Hannah had posted it

1069
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 3: and how wonderful things were. And I don't know, he

1070
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 3: seemed quite upset after that.

1071
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:37,480
Speaker 4: Well, after when the inquest was on, some facts came

1072
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 4: out there that we didn't know about. And one was

1073
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,919
Speaker 4: they found this message on his in his notes. Yes,

1074
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 4: that was dated back and.

1075
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 2: It was like Australia date Australia.

1076
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 4: But it was like, oh well you call it a

1077
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 4: not a.

1078
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 3: Confession, no more of it was almost a suicide note from.

1079
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 1: Dying declaration or from Hannah. Yeah, okay, well I'll put

1080
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: my homicide had on there that then he's thinking of

1081
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 1: it at that time.

1082
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 3: It was written all about I'm sorry, you'll be I'm sorry,

1083
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 3: the children still love you, Hannah, but you've bought this

1084
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 3: on yourself, something like this, and so we weren't sure

1085
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 3: it was nobody was going to leave because he killed

1086
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 3: the kids or killed her, but it seemed like it

1087
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 3: was going to kill her.

1088
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: And that was because the day that he killed Hannah

1089
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: and the children was nineenth of February. Yeah, and so

1090
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: we're talking Australia day twenty sixth of January, and he's

1091
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:36,919
Speaker 1: got these thoughts in his head at that.

1092
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 2: Which none of us were aware.

1093
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 1: The police found that, and we can only speculate what's

1094
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 1: going through his mind, but there was certainly something going

1095
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: through his mind at that point in time.

1096
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:48,959
Speaker 4: So that's what I think he realized that he wasn't

1097
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 4: going to get Hannah back. She was She's had this wall.

1098
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 4: Now she's strong, she's got the kids. And the thing

1099
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 4: is that he was never ever not going to be

1100
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 4: able to see the kids. He just why could he

1101
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 4: not just let them live their own life and he

1102
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 4: have his life and still see the kids and be

1103
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 4: part of their lives. But he had to have this

1104
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 4: one hundred percent, Like he said, I want the kids

1105
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 4: one hundred percent. How are you going to survive? How

1106
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:16,279
Speaker 4: are you going to do that?

1107
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 3: And I was I'd actually said to him when he

1108
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 3: had the children, I would be more than happy to

1109
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 3: be there to support him if he needed anything done

1110
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 3: to help.

1111
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 4: He wasn't seeing things, you know laterally, so that's I mean,

1112
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 4: he couldn't get just get it through his head. All

1113
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 4: he had was that one vision, that one thing. That's

1114
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 4: all he wanted to do and know his way or.

1115
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 1: The high ways and look a couple of a couple

1116
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,959
Speaker 1: of things. And this is what makes me very sad

1117
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: about what happened, because you guys, and obviously that played

1118
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: off with Hannah and everything you were so giving of

1119
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: that's the right thing, like, yeah, we're not trying to

1120
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: take it like you would be well within your right

1121
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: say stuff that we're going to get a called order

1122
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,040
Speaker 1: that you never see your kids. But you were in

1123
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 1: spirit and you understood the importance of to him, you're

1124
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 1: being kind to him.

1125
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 4: We wanted to do the right find the right steps. Yeah,

1126
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 4: like we wanted to be all legal and just do it,

1127
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 4: do it proper, you know, and just move on.

1128
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 3: But by the time he killed them, we were starting

1129
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,439
Speaker 3: to get well, maybe he should never have the children. Yeah,

1130
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 3: you know, we were starting to get he.

1131
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: Had those times where he took one of the kids

1132
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: away and different things, and that that caused a lot

1133
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: of stress to Hannah. So it would have to and

1134
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: I've never been in the situation. If you've had someone

1135
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 1: looking after my kids at that age that you didn't trust,

1136
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: it must be a living nightmare.

1137
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1138
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 4: Well, the first time he had had the kids, remember

1139
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 4: that was around Australia, because it was it was just

1140
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 4: before Australia. So he had them for the Friday night.

1141
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 4: He's gonna have him Friday, So I don't think it

1142
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 4: was a couple of nights. So we said to Hannah, Okay,

1143
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 4: let's get an uber. We'll go down to the club

1144
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 4: down winter Man, we'll have a have a meal and

1145
00:55:56,440 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 4: have a few drefts. Let's just unwined ring Nikkis and Nikki.

1146
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 4: We're going down. How about you come down. So we

1147
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 4: went down and we're having a few drinks, and of course,

1148
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 4: next thing, she gets a phone call on his phone

1149
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 4: and it's Aliah. Yeah, what's going on? Oh Dad's got

1150
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:14,960
Speaker 4: us in the car and he's taken us somewhere.

1151
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 2: Ye I don't know where he's driving and it's dark.

1152
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 4: And it's a thirty at night, and thinking well, why

1153
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 4: isn't he got the kids in the carner? Hang on?

1154
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 4: What's he doing? Is he taking them somewhere? Is he

1155
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 4: cutting for it? So he was starting to play those

1156
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,920
Speaker 4: games right and next thing and Hannah, luckily she probably

1157
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 4: had a few drinks. She was quite calm about it.

1158
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,480
Speaker 4: That's okay, you know, he's probably taking you to a

1159
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 4: fun thing, fun you know, And she didn't put any

1160
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 4: excitement in her voice or threatening that it's okay. And

1161
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 4: then before she could say the house, Aliah. This is

1162
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 4: how smart she was, she goes, hang on, we're just

1163
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 4: going past Bunnings. Oh you know, he's taking this back

1164
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 4: home you.

1165
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 2: Can see the exit on the freeway.

1166
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 1: Smart kid.

1167
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 2: Yes, he's the phone off the child.

1168
00:56:58,000 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 4: It just foiled the whole thing. So he was doing

1169
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 4: to try and upset Hannah. He obviously knew that she

1170
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 4: might have been out. I don't know whether he knews

1171
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 4: she was going out or whatever, but he just thought,

1172
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 4: I'll just put some fear into her that I've got

1173
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 4: the kids on taking off. So there's that Bravo Marsho

1174
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 4: man trying to be the tough guy again and beat

1175
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 4: her down.

1176
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: And this is where and we'll talk about this in

1177
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: part two, that you know these so called tough guys

1178
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: that think they're tough, real tough guys need to talk

1179
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: these guys down, like call them for what they are. Like,

1180
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: it's all bravarde, you are just a weak human being

1181
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: and we need to get there.

1182
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 3: Just the day, the day, the night before if I can,

1183
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 3: he FaceTime the children and he couldn't speak to them

1184
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 3: because he was crying so hard and like, Elia's just

1185
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 3: he's crying and the kids. In the end, Hannah said

1186
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 3: to him, I'm going to hang up unless you talk

1187
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 3: to the children. This is no good. They don't need

1188
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 3: to see you crying and then she had trouble sleeping

1189
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 3: that night because she thought he was going to kill himself,

1190
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 3: and she was really really concerned about that.

1191
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: Her empathy comes across even in that stage. But again,

1192
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 1: that's a manipulation, isn't.

1193
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:17,960
Speaker 2: I'm going to go oh, he often threatened.

1194
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: I would imagine that would be part if you don't

1195
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: come back, I'm going to kill myself. That would have

1196
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: been rolled out to the point of ad nauseum. Okay,

1197
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: on the day people know about it. You've spoken about it,

1198
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: and I feel uncomfortable sitting here bringing it up. But

1199
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 1: I want people to understand what we're talking about here,

1200
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: and I'll say it that in a car, he doused

1201
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: Hannah and the three children with petrol, didn't douse himself

1202
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: with petrol, driving driving around, driving past someone that Hannah

1203
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: thought might be able to help and call out, and

1204
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 1: not on that basis that it escalated from there and

1205
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: he set the car alight.

1206
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, she didn't know he was hiding the side of

1207
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 3: the house, ran out with the knife as she just

1208
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 3: finished putting the last one in the car seat, jumped in,

1209
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 3: held the knife on her and told her to drive through,

1210
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 3: petrol over them all and the idiot didn't realize that

1211
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 3: you get a bit of splashback from petrol, so he

1212
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 3: got petrol on himself and she just got down around

1213
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 3: the corner and she saw Michael, a neighbor, actually washing

1214
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 3: the car and he had a hose, so she screamed

1215
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 3: out to.

1216
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 4: Him, and she only had her window down. Car windows

1217
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 4: were tinted as well, so no one knew there were

1218
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 4: kids in the black One of the guys who was

1219
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 4: putting a sign up, he saw the cover on the

1220
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 4: window and it clicked to him that there's children there,

1221
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 4: so he raced over and sort of of course, they

1222
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 4: had the door locks too on it, so he only

1223
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 4: saw Hannah. Yeah, but Michael sort of got to the

1224
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 4: door and thought, what's going on in he I don't

1225
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 4: like to say his name, but she had had Hannah

1226
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,439
Speaker 4: an a bear hug and she's trying to get out.

1227
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 4: Michael sort of got hose in his hand, looked and

1228
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 4: saw what's going on in the process, and next thing,

1229
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, Hannah broke free, and he said,

1230
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:17,960
Speaker 4: I think I got my hand to the door. I

1231
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 4: didn't even get over next to him. It was his

1232
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 4: almighty flash and that was enough. YEA he went back,

1233
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 4: his face got burnt. Hannah came out burnt on fire

1234
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 4: hose on her straight away hit get on the ground, dowst.

1235
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 4: Hannah kept the water on her, then looked around, saw

1236
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 4: him get out. He's covered in fire too, so he

1237
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 4: went around put him out. Then the car actually must

1238
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 4: have got out of gear started rolling back. Yeah, it

1239
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 4: had just gone up in flames. Talking to Dr Rashford

1240
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 4: and a few others, they reckon the velocity of the

1241
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:57,280
Speaker 4: fire was so strong and that the kids didn't have

1242
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 4: a chance. They just went straight away, so there was

1243
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 4: no That was always my biggest thing was I hope

1244
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 4: the kids didn't suffer. They would have been so terrified

1245
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 4: because especially going on. So eight o'clock I actually got

1246
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 4: a phone call from Hannah. I'm on a job site,

1247
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 4: trying to look at a job and a lot of

1248
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 4: noise going around, and I'm saying, yeah, hello, how are

1249
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 4: you there? What's going on? Hello? And I can hear

1250
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 4: the kids, but it wasn't screaming, it wasn't. They just

1251
01:01:31,920 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 4: did me talking. So I thought, Okay, it's just a

1252
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 4: bum dye the kids working around. So I hung out

1253
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:42,080
Speaker 4: and then you know, an hour later, I get a

1254
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 4: phone call from the neighbor saying, a detective, Sergeant Scott

1255
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 4: Thompson has been around here looking for you. What are

1256
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 4: you done? Jesus might have a speeding ticket, but I

1257
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 4: don't know why. Detectives.

1258
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: You don't have to confess now, Yeah.

1259
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 4: And holy crap, And anyway, we're trying to piece it together,

1260
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:58,919
Speaker 4: and then he wrings him back and goes, oh, there's

1261
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 4: a card downs gone on fire, caught on fire, and

1262
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 4: you had some kids are going up in it, and

1263
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 4: oh wow. I still didn't put turn two together. I

1264
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 4: suppose I didn't want to. And he said it was

1265
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,439
Speaker 4: a white car that he'd hurt. So yeah, I didn't

1266
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 4: think it was Hannah. I thought I she would have

1267
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:16,479
Speaker 4: been long gone. But anyway, so I'm trying to call

1268
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 4: Sue Hannah at that stage, and you're going to say

1269
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 4: what happened to you? Years? So they came in to.

1270
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 3: Get you, and well, I was went for morning tea

1271
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,560
Speaker 3: and I worked for dentists and one of the young

1272
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 3: dentists was flicking through Facebook and she stopped. She went, oh, Sue,

1273
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 3: three kids have been burnt to death in a car

1274
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 3: and camp Hill and I just knew. And then she

1275
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 3: read on a bit more and she went in Raven

1276
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 3: Street and then I just knew. And with that I

1277
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 3: looked up and two detectives walked in, so I knew

1278
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 3: straight away, and I tried as soon as she said it,

1279
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 3: I tried ringing and I was like, oh, no, I

1280
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 3: should be at the gym, the kids are at school,

1281
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 3: and didn't. Yeah, but it was pretty quick. And I'd

1282
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 3: heard the sirens all morning because I don't work far

1283
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 3: from where it happened. And actually I looked at the

1284
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 3: boss and went, Wow, something's happening today. It's all we

1285
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 3: could hear was sirens and sirens.

1286
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: I can't I'm sure anyone listening just can't imagine what

1287
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 1: goes through your mind there.

1288
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 4: I think.

1289
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:28,920
Speaker 1: One thing and gained testament to Hannah my understanding of

1290
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: even though the horrific injuries that she suffered, the burns,

1291
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 1: and she still managed to worry about her kids that

1292
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 1: was her primary concern and also speak to the police.

1293
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, she gave a statement.

1294
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 3: Well, in her head, she would have wanted him to pay,

1295
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 3: and that was her last final act to make him pay.

1296
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 4: People have said that witnesses who were there on the day,

1297
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 4: some couple of young tradees came racing up as a

1298
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 4: car was rolling. They went out to try and stop

1299
01:04:01,880 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 4: it or try and get in there. And apparently at

1300
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:07,960
Speaker 4: that stage he was still he was I wasn't on fire,

1301
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 4: but he had that. He went back to the burning cart,

1302
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 4: pulled the knife out and looked at these people and

1303
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 4: threatened them with the knife, and they reckoned. His eyes

1304
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 4: were just black. It was something evil there. It was

1305
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 4: just it wasn't right. Yeah, so yeah, they sort of

1306
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 4: pulled back and then he stabbed himself in the in

1307
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 4: the chest, not once, but twice. They missed the first.

1308
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 2: Time and lucky it was a blunt knife too. Took

1309
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 2: a while.

1310
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, look, you hear it. We've heard that these

1311
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 1: murder suicides and all that white tape, the children white

1312
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 1: take your partner. Yeah, if you're going to do it, do.

1313
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 4: It yourself exactly.

1314
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: But they're cowards. That's uh, there's no other way.

1315
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,160
Speaker 3: That's why he stabbed himself. He realized then there was

1316
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:54,760
Speaker 3: no way out.

1317
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, for being the control for it. I'd

1318
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: love love to see him put the prison situation with that,

1319
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 1: with what he's done and see what the tough guy

1320
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 1: is there.

1321
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 4: I think where the whole system fell apart, the QPS

1322
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:12,439
Speaker 4: and they know it, and it was the only problem

1323
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 4: we've got with him is that when he did get

1324
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 4: when he breached the DVA and then he got caught

1325
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 4: at down local shopping center, they saw him, got him,

1326
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 4: took him to the police beat. He should have went

1327
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 4: to the watchhouse because he had breached his DVO and

1328
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 4: he had never gone back in to give his side

1329
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 4: of the story, give his evidence. So they let him go.

1330
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 4: And if he would have spent a night in jail

1331
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 4: bailable offense, maybe that could have been enough just to

1332
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 4: sort of stop it, a bit of a wake up call,

1333
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 4: put him in the pan for a while, cool him down,

1334
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 4: you know. But no, he got let off. So again,

1335
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 4: you know, he missed getting a smack on the wrist

1336
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 4: which might have set him straight. But we will never know.

1337
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 1: Well, when we might take a break now and when

1338
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: we get back, we're going to talk about the aftermath

1339
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 1: of what happened with the and it's a tragedy that

1340
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 1: touched everyone in the country. I don't think they're and

1341
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 1: I said it to you guys the other day when

1342
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: I said I was coming up here to do a

1343
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 1: podcast with you I've done podcasts with a lot of people,

1344
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: but the amount of comments I got with people going, oh,

1345
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 1: I remember that, so it's in the country, Psyche, what

1346
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 1: what happened? But we'll talk about, yeah, if any good

1347
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 1: can come from this, making sure that this type of

1348
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 1: thing is harder for it to happen again, and different

1349
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 1: things on the back of the work that you guys

1350
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 1: are tirelessly doing. So let's have a break and when

1351
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: we'll get back, we'll talk about that.

1352
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 4: Okay, sound good, Good