WEBVTT - Why the PNG landslide should be Australia's problem too

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<v Speaker 1>The landslide occurred at about three am in the morning,

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<v Speaker 1>so everyone would have been asleep in their houses. So

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<v Speaker 1>my name is Justine McMahon. I live in the Highlands.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm in Goroka in Eastern Highlands. I'm the country director

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<v Speaker 1>of Care in PNG. I've been at care close to

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<v Speaker 1>wait years now, so yeah, a bit of a dinosaur.

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<v Speaker 2>We're starting in Papua New Guinea where more than two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand people have been buried alive from a landslide which

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<v Speaker 2>hit a remote village.

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<v Speaker 1>They would have had no warning. The noise that accompanies

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<v Speaker 1>something like that is enormous and it is absolutely terrifying

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<v Speaker 1>for the survivors.

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<v Speaker 2>Many locals fear that they may not be able to

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<v Speaker 2>find or retrieve their buddhies, of their loved ones and

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<v Speaker 2>give them a proper burial.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't just dirt that down. There were huge rocks

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<v Speaker 1>and boulders that came down as well. Many of them

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<v Speaker 1>possibly wouldn't have understood what was happening. They would have

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<v Speaker 1>had very little time to react. It must have just

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<v Speaker 1>been a horrendous situation.

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<v Speaker 2>From Schwartz Media, I'm Ashlin McGee. This is seven am.

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<v Speaker 2>Two thousand people buried alive. It's really hard to comprehend.

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<v Speaker 2>And to see those videos days later of locals digging

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<v Speaker 2>with their hands in the dirt is a reminder of

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<v Speaker 2>just how difficult it is to respond to this disaster

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<v Speaker 2>in a country there's just four kilometers from the top

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<v Speaker 2>of Australia. The PNG Highlands were already a remote, inaccessible

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<v Speaker 2>and dangerous part of the world, and now it's even

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<v Speaker 2>worse today, cares Country director Justine McMahon and why getting

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<v Speaker 2>in there to help is so hard, and journalist Joe

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<v Speaker 2>Chandler and what she fears may happen next. It's Wednesday,

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<v Speaker 2>May twenty nine. So you've reported from Papua New Guinea

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<v Speaker 2>so many times over the years when you first heard

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<v Speaker 2>about the landslide. What went through your mind?

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<v Speaker 3>I was thinking about the remoteness of this place and

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<v Speaker 3>about really the lack of capacity within PNG to respond

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<v Speaker 3>to an episode this extreme, this devastating. I mean, by

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<v Speaker 3>all accounts, like lots of places in the Highlands, there's

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<v Speaker 3>no functional roads here. The only way in and out

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<v Speaker 3>of the afflicted area is by helicopter. There's obviously limited

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<v Speaker 3>resources to be flying those in and out, and so

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<v Speaker 3>I guess the first thing I was thinking about, just

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<v Speaker 3>the utter devas station. Your listeners may well have heard

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<v Speaker 3>some of the reports from Justine McMahon, and she's the

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<v Speaker 3>Care Australia country director.

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<v Speaker 1>In Anger Province. There's one main highway and it goes

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<v Speaker 1>all the way from the coast in Lay right up

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<v Speaker 1>through Anger through the provincial capital. And in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>the people, it's a rural community and so many of

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<v Speaker 1>the people are subsistence farmers. Most of the houses would

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<v Speaker 1>be built out of bush materials. So even a minor landslide,

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<v Speaker 1>if there's such a thing, wouldn't withstand something like that,

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<v Speaker 1>let alone a landslide at the scale that we've had.

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<v Speaker 3>An event like this, if it not only blocks the road,

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<v Speaker 3>it blocks the rivers, so you've got water being displaced,

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<v Speaker 3>you've got crops being lost, you've lost whatever access which

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<v Speaker 3>was probably minimal to start with, to basic services like health,

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<v Speaker 3>and people become utterly isolated, and just the fear in

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<v Speaker 3>that community about why has this happened to us? That

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<v Speaker 3>just doesn't bear thinking about.

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<v Speaker 2>So with this landslide, at first the estimate was about

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<v Speaker 2>six hundred and seventy odd people missing, but now that

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<v Speaker 2>number seems to have risen quite sharply. Why is it

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<v Speaker 2>so hard to know just how many people are affected?

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<v Speaker 3>I think that a lot of the estimates at the moment,

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<v Speaker 3>as I understand, are coming from kind of guestimates about

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<v Speaker 3>how many houses were in these locations and what would

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<v Speaker 3>be the kind of average number of people that might

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<v Speaker 3>be inside each one of those houses on any given night.

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<v Speaker 3>Who knows, Because I understand there's been quite a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of tribal fighting in this particular area, at least over

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<v Speaker 3>the last year, maybe a bit longer. Some of it

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<v Speaker 3>may go back to the last elections, So some political

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<v Speaker 3>rivalries from the twenty twenty two election, and the these

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<v Speaker 3>highlands areas, particularly where they're close to a big mine,

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<v Speaker 3>and you have really substantial disputes among landowners about who

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<v Speaker 3>are the rightful beneficiaries of any royalties payments that jobs

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<v Speaker 3>that are coming out of these tend to rile up

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<v Speaker 3>some really quite fierce rivalries and fighting. And so what

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<v Speaker 3>that means is when this fighting breaks out, people run,

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<v Speaker 3>They flee because they're they're homes, their whole villagers get

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<v Speaker 3>torched by these gangs, and you end up with these

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<v Speaker 3>massive populations of internally displaced people.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that P and G gets a bad rap

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<v Speaker 1>in the media. The Highlands, the people are overwhelmingly generous

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<v Speaker 1>and kind, but you know, there are times when conflict

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<v Speaker 1>and violence can flare up really quickly, and you always

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<v Speaker 1>have to be on your toes. The sad thing about

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<v Speaker 1>this is invariably the people who suffer are the women

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<v Speaker 1>and children and the elderly.

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<v Speaker 3>Often women and children, but often you know elderly people,

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<v Speaker 3>you know the men as well, will go and move

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<v Speaker 3>into a household with some of their wantops. They're part

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<v Speaker 3>of their community. They could be very crowded, or they

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<v Speaker 3>might have fled the other way. So I do feel

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<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of guessing here. Maybe the electoral role

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<v Speaker 3>eventually might be a way to try and sort of

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<v Speaker 3>pick your way through it, but even then that doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>account for people if they've been fleeing because of the violence.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess just listening to you say that there's no

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<v Speaker 2>good place for a landslide to happen, but this sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like the worst possible place. It sounds catastrophic.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I guess what I should draw a picture of

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<v Speaker 3>a little bit is the access to services and what

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<v Speaker 3>will be playing out now. So in this particular area,

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<v Speaker 3>as I understand that there was one sort of functional

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<v Speaker 3>seven dad Venice church run hospital that's been operating on

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<v Speaker 3>and off, depending on whether there's been fighting going, whether

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<v Speaker 3>they've had power electricity available. Then there's the Weyburg General Hospital,

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<v Speaker 3>which is in the provincial capital. It's like many hospitals,

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<v Speaker 3>provincial hospitals in Papua New Guinea, really poorly staffed, really

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<v Speaker 3>run down. Its capacity to support this particular incident is

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<v Speaker 3>going to be pretty poor. One of the things that

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<v Speaker 3>interested me from the outside in reporting on Papua New

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<v Speaker 3>Guinea was that I've had a long interest in looking at,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, human development indicators and development issues, health issues,

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<v Speaker 3>maternal care, and I remember looking at some of the

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<v Speaker 3>indicators around those basic things in relation to Papua New

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<v Speaker 3>Guinea and being absolutely horrified at how bad a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of these numbers were and the historian government. I think

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<v Speaker 3>Papua New Guinea has long been our main beneficiary of

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<v Speaker 3>Australian aid, but I'm constantly surprised at how little interest

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<v Speaker 3>and engagement there is in this country, which is our

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<v Speaker 3>closest neighbor, our former colonial responsibility, and it is it's beautiful,

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<v Speaker 3>it's beguiling. It's one of the most fascinating places on

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<v Speaker 3>the planet, and yet we don't engage in the best

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<v Speaker 3>all the worst of it. And I'm just really curious

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<v Speaker 3>about this blind spot we've got around this amazing neighbor.

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<v Speaker 2>After the break Australia's legacy in PNG and what we

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<v Speaker 2>owe our closest neighbor.

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<v Speaker 4>Papua New Guinea is our nearest of neighbors and our

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<v Speaker 4>closest to friends. We stand with each other through the

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<v Speaker 4>good times and the bad. At this most tragic of times,

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<v Speaker 4>I want the people P and G to know that

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<v Speaker 4>Australia is there for them and always will be.

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<v Speaker 1>Jo.

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<v Speaker 2>We've been talking about Australia's relationship with P and G

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<v Speaker 2>over the years, and so much of it seems to

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<v Speaker 2>center on our financial interest there. You know, the minds

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<v Speaker 2>and energy projects that Australian companies owner invest in.

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<v Speaker 3>We have some corporate interests involved in some of these

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<v Speaker 3>big companies that are active. And when you went looking

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<v Speaker 3>for information about Papua New Guinea, the only indices that

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<v Speaker 3>you would generally find in the mainstream press were in

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<v Speaker 3>the financial pages tracking the fortunes of mining companies up

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<v Speaker 3>and down and there was just so little reflection beyond

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<v Speaker 3>those those figures around well, what does that project actually

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<v Speaker 3>mean on the ground, what's the social license, what are

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<v Speaker 3>the environmental and social implications of these projects? What are

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<v Speaker 3>the guarantees that they're going to deliver to communities what

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<v Speaker 3>they want? So some of the first reporting ideas was

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<v Speaker 3>really to try and poke around some of those issues,

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<v Speaker 3>and fifteen years later, it's still it's still there's still

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<v Speaker 3>questions that remain completely open in that really until the

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<v Speaker 3>rise and rise of China's interest and the geopolitics began

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<v Speaker 3>to bite in this part of the world. Still most

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<v Speaker 3>of the reporting you ever saw on Papua New Guinea

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<v Speaker 3>was related to, you know, the commodities, stocks and the

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<v Speaker 3>stock market. The story that comes up again and again

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<v Speaker 3>when you go back to the Opteddy mine, the Bogainville mine,

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<v Speaker 3>the p and g LNG development up in the highlands,

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<v Speaker 3>and the poor Gram mine, is this cycle of expectation

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<v Speaker 3>and positioning and this belief that these communities are going

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<v Speaker 3>to be able to transition, that they're going to get

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<v Speaker 3>the services they desperately need for health and education, they're

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<v Speaker 3>going to get jobs, they're going to get roads. You

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<v Speaker 3>have to understand that the P and G state is

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<v Speaker 3>almost entirely from these communities. They're just not present. Your

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<v Speaker 3>entire survival is largely going to be about you and

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<v Speaker 3>your family and your wantoks and what you can do

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<v Speaker 3>to safeguard what is yours, which is your land. And

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<v Speaker 3>so when there's then a development of a resources extractive

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<v Speaker 3>project that is going to impact on your land, there's

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<v Speaker 3>that whole cycle of positioning to make sure that you

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<v Speaker 3>get your share of it and your community does. But

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<v Speaker 3>the wash up is often that the jobs aren't there,

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<v Speaker 3>the services aren't there, and you end up with this

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<v Speaker 3>very damaged and disenfranchised, particularly young men, but communities more

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<v Speaker 3>broadly that have been really devastated by you know, a

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<v Speaker 3>generation of expectation that's turned into nothing, and that's when

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<v Speaker 3>you get these eruptions of tribal violence which don't fit

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<v Speaker 3>the model of what occurred. You know, certainly tribal violence

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<v Speaker 3>is part of Highland's culture and life, but it's sort

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<v Speaker 3>of corrupted and exaggerated by the overlay of modernity, expectation,

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<v Speaker 3>money and mining and extraction and colonialism. You know, all

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<v Speaker 3>of it's come at them and it creates this stew

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<v Speaker 3>that is just so potent in a context of such

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<v Speaker 3>desperate need for basic services.

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<v Speaker 2>The Australian government is sending aid to PNG, but I

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<v Speaker 2>wonder what your view is when a disaster like these hits.

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<v Speaker 2>What's our responsibility as a country.

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<v Speaker 3>I think one of the things that, as well as

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<v Speaker 3>really getting in there with some long haul aid and

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<v Speaker 3>understanding this is not going to be an immediate This

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<v Speaker 3>is going to take years to recover from for these communities,

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<v Speaker 3>particularly if the landslide has blocked roads and rivers, we're

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<v Speaker 3>talking about really long term displacement. But I think it

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<v Speaker 3>has to be about more than emergency response, and it's

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<v Speaker 3>about thinking about how to provide, you know, a function

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<v Speaker 3>hospital system that will not only respond to the needs

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<v Speaker 3>of this community right now as they recover, but will

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<v Speaker 3>also be fit for purpose going forward from here. There

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<v Speaker 3>are a lot of reports of extreme rainfall events occurring

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<v Speaker 3>within the Highlands in recent times. I've spoken to a

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<v Speaker 3>couple of my contacts, one of them whom Professor Mike Burke.

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<v Speaker 3>He is an agricultural specialist who's been reporting in and

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<v Speaker 3>from Papua New Guinea for well over forty years, and

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<v Speaker 3>he was telling me that he's only recently come back

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<v Speaker 3>from a trip to the Eastern Highlands, so the other

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<v Speaker 3>end of the range. But he was completely shocked at

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<v Speaker 3>the rainfall events that he experienced when he was there,

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<v Speaker 3>and described them as being quite out of character to

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<v Speaker 3>the sorts of events that historically have occurred in the highlands.

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<v Speaker 3>And obviously determining whether this event might be linked to

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<v Speaker 3>rainfall which is outside the normal course of things, could

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<v Speaker 3>be attributable to a climate to climate and certainly you

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<v Speaker 3>know there is plenty of evidence and acdotal evidence across

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<v Speaker 3>Papua New Guinea of massive changes to rainfall patterns, but

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<v Speaker 3>there's been so little work. So in terms of thinking

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<v Speaker 3>of where do we go from here, I guess how

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<v Speaker 3>do we set up systems that are not just about

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<v Speaker 3>the band aid at the end of the emergency, but

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<v Speaker 3>anticipate what's coming and build resilience into the emergency response

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<v Speaker 3>and into the medical and health systems for the long term.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for your time today, Joe.

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<v Speaker 3>No problem, Thanks very much to you.

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<v Speaker 2>And Hey Dossin what do you wish people knew about

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on there at the moment? People in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>I think what we've seen from you know, the news

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<v Speaker 1>footage and other reports, is that people are desperately trying

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<v Speaker 1>to dig with their hands to recover their loved ones.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think what would be good for people to

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<v Speaker 1>know is the resilience and the determination of local people. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so sorry I get emotional about that, but that would

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<v Speaker 1>be Yeah, that would be the main thing.

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<v Speaker 2>What about that in particular makes you feel so emotional.

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<v Speaker 1>I think because these are ordinary, ordinary people who don't

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot. They're rural people. They may be described

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<v Speaker 1>as simple in terms of they don't have a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of assets. They have a small yeah, they have not

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<v Speaker 1>probably no bank accounts, but they care very deeply about

0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:52.920
<v Speaker 1>their community and about their villages. So that's a great

0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:53.960
<v Speaker 1>strength of P and G.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much for making time for us.

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<v Speaker 1>No worries, Ash, Thanks very much.

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<v Speaker 2>Also in the news today, the international President of Doctors

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<v Speaker 2>with Our Borders, doctor Christos Christu, has urged Australia's government

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<v Speaker 2>to take action, including sanctions, to force a cease firing GAZA.

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Christu was in Canberra addressing the National Press Club

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<v Speaker 2>when he said it was now the responsibility of governments

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<v Speaker 2>like Australia's to act saying aid workers could only do

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<v Speaker 2>so much. Quote I think we still try to find

0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:50.600
<v Speaker 2>the words. We cannot find them. We tried to collect

0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:54.680
<v Speaker 2>the evidence. It's not for us anymore. And the ABC

0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.960
<v Speaker 2>has denied claims published by the news Corp newspapers that

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<v Speaker 2>there was an emergency board meeting held to discuss comments

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<v Speaker 2>made by A seven thirty's chief political correspondent Laura Tingle

0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.959
<v Speaker 2>over the weekend. Tingle said at a ticket at Sydney

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<v Speaker 2>Writers Festival event that quote, we are a racist country,

0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.919
<v Speaker 2>let's face it, and that Peter Dutton's promise to reduce

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<v Speaker 2>immigration risked reviving racial divisions in the community. That's all

0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.159
<v Speaker 2>from us at seven am today. We will see you

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<v Speaker 2>again tomorrow