1 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm 2 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: James Kirby. Welcome aboard everybody. It's amazing how one thing 3 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: leads to another. Our last episode a very interesting chat 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: you might recall with Nathan Fradley. He was a financial advisor, 5 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: but he's also a specialist in divorce. If you miss 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: that episode, catch up because it's very good. It's about 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: how to divorce, the best way forward for both parties 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: in a divorce from a financial perspective. But a key 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: issue that emerged in that podcast was this concept of 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: financial abuse right very typically, For instance, in some divorce situations, 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: people will hide money. They may hide money in conventional 12 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: bank accounts. More recently they may hide money in crypto. 13 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: There's issues off often and always, of course, around property. 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: What's the best way to settle property? Not necessarily the 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: best thing to get the house. You would have thought 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: that would be automatically the case. Not so, says Nathan. 17 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: Also an issue that came up in that show was 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: people signing documents that they fail to understand, or perhaps 19 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: more typically, signing documents without inquiring what exactly the document entailed. 20 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: And this is why we so often see people left 21 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: high and dry by their partners, sometimes by their business partners. 22 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: My guest today is Anna cas Kumar, and she runs 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: the Tax Clinic tax and Business Advisory Clinic, which, if 24 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: you don't know what it is, it's an interesting Can 25 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: I call it an experiment? She'll tell me in a moment. 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: At the University of News that way is. Anna is 27 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,279 Speaker 1: an associate professor there. How are you Anna? 28 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for han me James, thank you, 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: And I think you have described it quite well. It's 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: very much an experimental design from a research and community 31 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 2: service perspective. 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: And I've bed several mistakes already, called you Anna, collection, 33 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: called you Anne, didn't check how I pronounced your surname properly? 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: How do I pronounce it? 35 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: You're so kind? It's chaos kuma ks kuma. 36 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: Okay. So the tax Clinic, it sounds awfully interesting. We 37 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: all could use it, I'm sure, But tell me how 38 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: long you've been going and precisely what your product proposal 39 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: is and to whom. 40 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: Yes, thank you for that. So we've started since twenty 41 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: nineteen helping people who are in severe of financial distress. So, 42 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 2: like you've mentioned in the past, with your guests, including 43 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: financial counselors. That cohort is the cohort that we serve, 44 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: and we've been doing that since our inception about five 45 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: six years ago. We also help people who've come to 46 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: us from other referral channels from the community sector, including 47 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: domestic violence Support Services Lifeline, and that really gives us 48 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: a unique window into a cohort that is falling through 49 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 2: the cracks. 50 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: And I'm going to guess now, but this isn't the 51 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: typical customer at a financial counselor's door. It's probably a 52 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: bit more complicated. I expect it's probably people who had 53 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: to go at a business in one way or another. 54 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: Is that? Could you tell us a little bit more 55 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: about the people on your books? 56 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 2: Basically, that's absolutely right. So most of our clients are 57 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: small business, particularly the micro business end of small business, 58 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: and that's why they come to us often with quite 59 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: substantial tax debts and long term tax returns and bus 60 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: returns that have not been completed. As you can imagine 61 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: your listeners can imagine, We know that a lot of 62 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: new businesses struggle to survive past five year mark, and unfortunately, 63 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 2: with our client base. To give your listeners a bit 64 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: of context. On average, our outstanding tax debt amount is 65 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 2: over eighty thousand dollars, so that's just tax debt, so 66 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: that's not other debts as well. And then on average 67 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: over seven years of outstanding income tax returns and over 68 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: five years of outstanding bas so for bas per year, 69 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: that's a lot of tax compliance that has fallen by 70 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: the wayside for a number of reasons, including mental health, 71 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 2: domestic violence, all the compounding factors and structural challenges that 72 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 2: small business can face. 73 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: How do you select? How do I how do you select? 74 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: You get ten pieces of correspondence every morning telling people 75 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: on people saying I'm at terrible state, I don't know 76 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: where to go. How do you do it? How do 77 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: you select? 78 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: We trianage by reference to urgency, for example, if the 79 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 2: and also the sense of working in true partnership with 80 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 2: our referral partners. And we've been doing that since that week, 81 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 2: since we started. And so where for example, financial b 82 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: service new Softwores, which is a state run financial abuse service, 83 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: comes to us and says, we have a client here 84 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 2: who has a director penalty notice at DPN that gives 85 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: the taxpayer twenty one days to pay the full amount 86 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 2: of the company liability that obviously gets triaged, escalated and prioritized, 87 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 2: but also the taxpayer has received urgent escalation letters from 88 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 2: the tax office that we know then that can lead 89 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: to firm action within triage and prioritize service. 90 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: Are you rushing to save these people from bankruptcy? Is 91 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: that what it comes to? 92 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: Really, I'm glad that you asked that, because bankruptcy is 93 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: one of the risks that our clients are facing into, 94 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: and that can be appropriate in some circumstances, but particularly 95 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: in the situations that our clients find themselves in, it 96 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: can have really perverse knock on effects. For example, you 97 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 2: mentioned financial abuse being one of the issues, and it's 98 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 2: certainly a hot topic of the moment. Really grateful that 99 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: both sides politics of bipartisan support for reforming the weaponization 100 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: the tax system by perpetrators into a partner violence. What 101 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,920 Speaker 2: we're seeing is if the debts have been deliberately put 102 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 2: in the victim survivor's name as a further tactic of 103 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: financial abuse, then steamrolling into bankruptcy is the last thing 104 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: that person needs that might fall into because of a 105 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: lack of advice and support. That's really got awful short 106 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: term and medium long term consequences, including, for example, losing 107 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 2: standing and family court, which can result in that person 108 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 2: losing child customer. 109 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: Yeah right, I had never actually extrapolated to that degree. 110 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: Tell me, while we're talking in the show about divorce, 111 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: one of the things that came up clearly was that Laura, 112 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: ultimately this comes under the umbrella of financial literacy. And 113 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: I'm on the board of EXTRA, the Financial Literacy Foundation, 114 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: and we've had the We've represented EXTRA on the show 115 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: many times because I think financial literacy is terribly important 116 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: the people that come to your door. I know that 117 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: invariably there's a traumatic backdop over and above standard business stresses. 118 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: But how important is that financial literacy? Is it that 119 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 1: people didn't understand the documents they were signing, the notices 120 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: from the tax office, that they didn't understand the severity 121 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: of them. Is that an aspect of it. 122 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: That's certainly one of the factors that we see. And 123 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: of course you've anticipated there's a spectrum of different circumstances 124 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: that someone can come to our clinic having experienced on 125 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 2: one had financial literacy is one of the threads that 126 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: connects all of our clients. But just because someone has 127 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: a higher sense of financial literacy, it doesn't make them 128 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: immune to financial abuse. And that's the really insidious part 129 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: of it. We see people who have held really technical positions, 130 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: CEOs of companies, medical professionals who have fallen victim to 131 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: financial abuse, and so that's one of the really challenging 132 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: pieces around identifying those particular. 133 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: When you sit across those people, you know that they 134 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: are competent, they are credentialed in some area. So what 135 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: happened that led to them being in your office. 136 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: In circumstances of financial control? In particular, there is and 137 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: this is an area of literature that is well beyond 138 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: my core expertise. But what we do know is that 139 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,119 Speaker 2: one of the dynamics at play is power and control. 140 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: And your listeners might be aware of the term coercive control. 141 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: So a sense of that power dynamic, which to an 142 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 2: extent would stem from social norms, something as innocent as 143 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: saying I'll run the business. All you need to do 144 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: is sign XYZ doctor let me look after it. And 145 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: it does present a bit of a slippery slope. And 146 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: really something distressed as well with your listeners is this 147 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 2: is a relatively small cohort. So we know that it 148 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: affects sixteen percent of Australian women and eight percent of 149 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: Australian men according to ABS data from about four years ago. 150 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: But that is a significant cohort. When you add it all, 151 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: we're talking two point four million Australians. 152 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: Okay, and it's twice put very wrong numbers on it. 153 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: The issue is twice as prevalent among women than. 154 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: Men statistically speaking. 155 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, very very interesting. I've got to hold it 156 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: right there. We're going to take a break and we're 157 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: going to come back and do a closer dive on 158 00:09:50,280 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: this back in a moment. Talks. Hello, Welcome back to 159 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm James Kirby from The 160 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: Australian and I am talking to an kus Kumar from 161 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: the Tax Clinic. The Tax Clinic is at the University 162 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: of New South Wales and it's Newish. It's not perhaps 163 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: very well known in the broader investment audience, but they're 164 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: doing some fascinating work and I think it gives us 165 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: a really interesting insight into the world. We talk on 166 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: the show mostly about how to understand investing and how 167 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: to succeed in investing. Not everybody does just, and businesses 168 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: roll over, and investors get into all sorts of trouble, 169 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: and people at all levers get into all sorts of 170 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: trouble financially. And there is if you can't pay for 171 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: a financial advisor being five five hundred a year, it's 172 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: after that where do you go. There's financial counselors, but 173 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: they really only want to deal with people who are 174 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: are in desperate straits and difficulties financially. What about people 175 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: who had a business who were making a goal of 176 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,719 Speaker 1: things and it went after rails And this is the 177 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: sort of layer and if I'm if I've got it right, 178 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: this is the layer of where you come in. Can 179 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: you tell me what rule has divorce got in your files? 180 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: If you like? 181 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 2: We definitely find that amongst our coport of clients, the 182 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: incidence of financial abuse is a very strong undercurrent, and 183 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 2: from the literature we also know that is quite common 184 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 2: as a post separation event. So with all of the 185 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: other forms of abuse increasingly falling out of reach of perpetrators, 186 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: financial abuse often rams up, or even if there was 187 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,119 Speaker 2: no domestic violence, the opportunity for financial abuse post separation 188 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: then presents a catalyst for that following a brilliant breakdown. 189 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: Yes, of course, is it new. It's just we call 190 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: the financial abuse. But is it new? Is there anything 191 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: change interested there from? Has it always been there? Are 192 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 1: there particular trends that are new and so more urgent. 193 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 2: There's definitely been an increased awareness over the last few 194 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 2: decades the financial abuse is a subset of domestic violence, 195 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: but in terms of the overall public perception that is 196 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: still in progress. In terms of shifting the dial awareness 197 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 2: an understanding that domestic violence isn't just the physical forms 198 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: but very much the financial forms, and quite chillingly, typically 199 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: it takes a bignoms survivor about seven attempts to escape 200 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 2: a relationship, and it's a lack of economic security, financial 201 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 2: security that can draw them back to a perpetrator. 202 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and what are the flash points? Obviously one 203 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: is separation and post separation, but generally a got are 204 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: the flash points for you in this area? 205 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 2: That's certainly the situation that we see with our client base. 206 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: From the literature more broadly, we know that key milestones 207 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 2: like having a child are also one of those circumstances, 208 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: and that goes back to the dynamic of power and control. 209 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: What about when businesses go sour. 210 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: The business and relationship breakdown unfortunately, of both markers of 211 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: financial vulnerability and financial distress. And when we zoom out 212 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: and look at the other literatures beyond the tax space, 213 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: which is my Baily wig. But in conversations that I've 214 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: had with researchers in the medical space, for example, in 215 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 2: mental health research, it's quite well established that financial distress 216 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 2: and mental health go hand in hand. And similarly in 217 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: the gender space or the gender violence space, financial distress 218 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 2: and financial abuse go hand in hand. There's a bit 219 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 2: of a vendor diagram here where they all intersect. 220 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: Is there any evidence that financial success and financial wellbeing 221 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: go hand in hand? 222 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: That's a great question. Financial well being is certainly an 223 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 2: area that is looked at in the banks have done 224 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: some amazing work in the center of social impact to 225 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: one of the it's complicated to define, but one of 226 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: the pieces is around a social capital piece that goes 227 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: to that point. I think you're raising as well, James. 228 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 2: But it's certainly a complicated space when you look at 229 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: the opposite end of the spectrum with financial vulnerability and 230 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: all the things that can be indicators of a lack 231 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 2: of financial wellbeing. 232 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: Can I ask you just in the area of taxes, 233 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: it is a tax cliniqic it be worth people, it 234 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: would be worth knowing. And this is just strictly an 235 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: academic question as such in our tax system. A lot 236 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: of people on the show when they complain about the 237 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: fact that you must just if you get a tax 238 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: bill for whatever reason, like you must establish so it 239 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: get a bill for ten thousands and you say that 240 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be ten thousand, it should be eight thousand, 241 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: but you must establish why it's not ten thousands. Is 242 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: that typical all around the world. People don't necessarily know 243 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: is that Western convention in. 244 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: Tax And that goes to a really interesting point, James, 245 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: and something that leads to a question around broader tax 246 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: payer rides. So we know in Australia, like you said, 247 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: we have effectively both a self assessment scheme over the 248 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: last couple of decades and a reverse onus of proof. 249 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: Yes, reverse owners of proof. That's it, Yeah, beautifully put 250 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: academically sweetly termed yeah, reverse owners of proof, which would 251 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: be described in more furious terms by some people. 252 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, indeed, indeed and this is something that 253 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: is a real challenge. 254 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: But is it a global standard? Is that how it 255 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: works everywhere? Ah? 256 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: Well, we do know that the back in nineteen ninety 257 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 2: three there was a recommendation to reform that by government agency, 258 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: the Joint Commity of Public Accounts, And so this is 259 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: something that has been contested on and off since ninety three, 260 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: and it's something that is not necessarily Every system has 261 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: its own nuances and quirks. Where the rubber hits the 262 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 2: road is of course, in disputes, like you say, and 263 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: we don't have all of the mechanisms available compared to 264 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: some other jurisdictions like the US, but of course they 265 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 2: in turn have their own quirks. We do have a 266 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: taxpayer name died, we do have a taxpayer charter, but 267 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: we don't have a taxpayer bill of rights. So across 268 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: the patchwork we have a system where we know that 269 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: there is rule of law and there are tax dispute 270 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: resolution mechanisms. But in terms of the burden on taxpayers, 271 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: it is well established that disproportionately affects the lower end 272 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: of the tax paying spectrum because it's nearly impossible to 273 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 2: navigate all of this complexity without is that right? 274 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: Even know that? Okay? And in terms of from again, 275 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: many of our listeners have self managed super funds when 276 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: I'm guessing again, but I imagine the hotspot for you is couples. 277 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: You see, you pass a restaurant, there was a couple 278 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: in the restaurant. They seem to be going great. Next 279 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: thing you find out the businesses for sale. The couple 280 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: have broke up, the business has broken up. Often in 281 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: those cases there's also self managed super fund complications because 282 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: the self managed super funds which they both had owned 283 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: the business or owned the business premises or whatever. The 284 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: SMSF brigade as such, where where do they go? Can 285 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: you deal with them? 286 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: There is a real risk of people in those situations 287 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 2: falling through the cracks because our service doesn't have enough 288 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 2: resourcing to meet all of the unmet need unfortunately. But 289 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 2: we are growing trend in the Australian landscape them Like 290 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 2: you said, James, we're relatively new across Australia. There's to 291 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: both side of politics, credit and growing awareness and understanding 292 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 2: that this scheme needs to be further supported. To the 293 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: National Tax Clinics program has about twenty tax clinics Australia wide. 294 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 2: But we really do need to have more funding so 295 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: that we can support a broader pool of people who 296 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: are all falling through the cracks, because, like you've said, 297 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 2: without the professional advice that you need to navigate complexity, 298 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: it's nearly impossible to do so. 299 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,479 Speaker 1: Okay, So tell me from your experience so far in 300 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: this very interesting sort of coningage area. Really i'm sure academically, 301 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: what are your lessons that you would give to listeners 302 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: that they don't end up sitting opposite you in your clinic. 303 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 2: There's three key things. One is, where possible, making sure 304 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: that cash flow is managed in a way that is 305 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: mindful of tax compliance obligations, because that's one of the 306 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 2: pitfalls that we do see, and that's easier said than done. 307 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: They just keep pushing the tax dimension away. 308 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 2: And that goes to financial literacy and tax literacy like 309 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: you were saying before, but of course easier to bean 310 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: done where there are cash flow struggles. Then quarantining off 311 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 2: the GST is obviously a challenge. The second when it 312 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 2: comes to financial abuse, is being able to recognize the science, 313 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: not necessarily in your clients, but just more broadly as well. 314 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: So there are five key telltale signs or red flags 315 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: of financial abuse, particularly in tax situations. So one is 316 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 2: controlling access to money, so restricting access to bank accounts, 317 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: business income tax information. The second is hiding money, so 318 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: keeping finances secret and hiding income and assets. The third 319 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 2: is shifting debts, and we see that financial counselors have 320 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: been identifying that for a while. Now they call it 321 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: sexually transmitted debt. We've also identified a subcohoro sexually transmitted 322 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: tax stets. So that's the situations like the dPNs for example, 323 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 2: or taking out loans in the other person's name. 324 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: What the dPNs, you might explain what that means? What 325 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: do you mean? Oh? 326 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 2: Yes, So dPNs is the director penalty notices. It's those 327 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: situations where the company liability goes to the director and 328 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: where we have a sole director situation with a biglim survivor, 329 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: with the perpetrator being the shadow director. That then means 330 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 2: that the ATO by default has to go after the 331 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: one early director and. 332 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: This would be a hotspot where people signed something and 333 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: didn't realize what they were signing precisely. 334 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: And then fourth is making decisions, making financial decisions for 335 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: that other person, restricting their visibility around access to money 336 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: decision making. And then finally, the fifth one is having 337 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 2: inaccessible information, so business structures or financial arrangements the block 338 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 2: access to money. 339 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: Right, Okay, how's the arrival of cryptocurrency made this worse 340 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: or easier for the perpetuator. 341 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: We haven't identified crypto specifically as a mechanism, but what 342 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: we do know is that business is the strong thread 343 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 2: through all of our matters where there is a financial 344 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: abuse element, and unfortunately that number itself has been growing. 345 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 2: So when we first started the clinic, it was about 346 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 2: sixty percent of our female clients self reporting financial abuse 347 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 2: and that was on trend year on year up until 348 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 2: last year where it ballooned to over eighty percent and 349 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: it's been at that level for the last two years. 350 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: Is that Does that imply that the majority of the 351 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: victims in these scenarios are female? 352 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 2: Yes? Absolutely. What we see with our cohort is an 353 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: overrepresentation of women. 354 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: And is it getting better or worse over the last 355 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: two years? 356 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 2: It has been markedly worse, even though our client intake 357 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: mechanism hasn't changed dramatically. 358 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 1: And you're convinced that it has got worse rather than 359 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: the reporting has changed. 360 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 2: Because we used an internationally recognized screening scale rather than 361 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 2: just ask a yes no question, I am confident, so 362 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 2: we use the scale that I Can't Abuse Too, which 363 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: asks over a dozen questions that are more broad and 364 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: so it doesn't rely on awareness of the respondent to 365 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: the survey question. 366 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, very good. We'll be back in a moment. 367 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: Folk curated once more for and some issues that have 368 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: come up on the show and a very interesting question 369 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: from d Back in a moment. Hello, Welcome back to 370 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: the Australians Money Puzzled podcast. James Kirby here with Ann 371 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: ks Kumar from the Tax Clinic at the University of 372 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: New South Wales, which is a specialist unit dealing with 373 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 1: people who have complex tax problems where there has been 374 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: financial abuse. Is that almost that's mandatory? Is it that 375 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: you must prove the abuse? I expect you must before 376 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: you will deal with a client. 377 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: That's such a great question because the of an injury 378 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: burden is a challenge that the ATO is facing into 379 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,239 Speaker 2: now following the Tax Ombosman's recommendations. So we ran an 380 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: investigation of financial abuse and the tax system and made 381 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: some recommendations for both administrative and legislative reform. When it 382 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: comes to proving abuse, what we do is rely on 383 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 2: the experts rather than us trying to become a master 384 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 2: of all. We just focus on the tax space and 385 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 2: rely on the community expertise from financial abuse services and 386 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,719 Speaker 2: domestic violence support services to do that triaging for us 387 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: in the majority instances. 388 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: So no one comes to you directly. They are referred. 389 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: We used to when we first started, a combination of 390 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: referrals from financial counselors and people who just found out 391 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 2: about us. But we have found that because we want 392 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 2: to only help the people who are in most need, 393 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 2: mindful that a lot of people might be struggling financially 394 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: but can still afford to pay for tax advice, we 395 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 2: don't want to be in that space where we even 396 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: risk having the optics of cannibalizing the profession, and so. 397 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: We are serving the wrong people over people who were 398 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: more deserving. Precisely, it's all pro bono, I imagine. Yes, yes, okay, 399 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: very interesting, All right, now, I had a couple of issues, 400 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: but I've kept one really interesting question, and I had 401 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: been wondering how I would deal with this, who would 402 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: answer it? But you've come along so as perfect it's 403 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: from d I just read it. Many women who have 404 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: secondary who have been secondary credit cardholders on their partners account, 405 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: whether due to traditional household rules or lower income, find 406 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: themselves in a difficult financial position, whether their partner passes 407 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: away or our relationship ends. Despite years of responsible use, 408 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: they often struggle to obtain a credit card in their 409 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: own name because they have not built an independent credit history. 410 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: The issue particularly impacts older women, homemakers, and those who 411 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: work part time. Banks often do not recognize secondary card 412 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: holders as having a financial track record, leaving these people 413 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: financially vulnerable. Would you consider covering this, Yes, we're going 414 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: to cover it right now. So this is an issue 415 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: that how does it work if you have you get 416 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: a credit card as a couple and one's a secondary holders, 417 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: so you don't exist as far as the bank concern 418 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: is that it. 419 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: What we've done from our conversations with clients and community 420 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: support services is that the primary secondary card holder piece 421 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: can be quite challenging to unpick, and that's one of 422 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 2: the reasons why a lot of experts in this space 423 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: suggest separate bank accounts and also shared if that is 424 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 2: what works for that particular couple, but certainly having separate 425 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 2: bank accounts is often noted as one of the strategies 426 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: that can be adopted more broadly, not just for the 427 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: track record form a credit history perspective, but just from 428 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: a control and access to money considering. 429 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: It's just the basic fundamental independence of it. 430 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: Yes, and that's not to say that's the silver believe, 431 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: but that is what is typically suggested. 432 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: Yes, and without that, it is the case that if 433 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: you're a second credit card holder, even for years and years, 434 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: you don't have a credit history. So you walk into 435 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: the bank after twenty five years where your partner was 436 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: the primary card holder, and you say to the bank, 437 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: I want my own credit card and they say, we 438 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: don't know who you are. We have no credit history 439 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: of you. 440 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: And while we haven't had as much bank king sector 441 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 2: related issues to manage because we only deal with the 442 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 2: tax piece, one of the things that Australian banks ought 443 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 2: to be very proud of is that we are global 444 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 2: leaders in the last four to five years, especially around 445 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 2: kind understanding of financial abuse, and so hopefully there might 446 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: be more opportunities for change in that space as well, 447 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 2: because the banking sector is quite ahead of the game. 448 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: When it comes to its approach to identify and supporting 449 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:28,479 Speaker 2: people experiencing financial abuse. 450 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,439 Speaker 1: Okay, very good, I see. So tell me if you 451 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: could wave a magic wand and there was one thing 452 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: your clinic and all the clinics around the country and 453 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 1: there obviously sounds something of a loose collection at the moment, 454 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: but if there was one thing that you'd like to 455 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: see happen, what would it be? 456 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 2: Oh? I love the idea of being able to waive 457 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: a magic Wand how expansive can we get here? We're 458 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 2: very close to getting law reform, which hopefully won't even 459 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 2: require a magic one because of the bipartisan support to 460 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 2: change the tax laws around the weaponization of the tax system. 461 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 2: More broadly, what I would love to see is more 462 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: awareness around tax literacy, more understanding that once you get 463 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,479 Speaker 2: an ABN, that comes with the knock on effect of 464 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: tax related compliance obligations, so that ideally we don't have 465 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 2: anyone needing. 466 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: Clinics like that don't really tell you what I can 467 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: get an ABN in two seconds. It doesn't They don't 468 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: really tell you. It's not really written a black and 469 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: white across the top. The obligations of that is. 470 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 2: It exactly, and then the first time you might have 471 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 2: a touch point might be eighteen months down the track 472 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: and you may not have realized that there are all 473 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 2: of these tax compliance obligations. 474 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: And just on that national law reform around abuse. If 475 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: it all comes to pass and falls into place, what 476 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: would happen that is not happening now A. 477 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: Number of things. So, like we're talking about, one of 478 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: the challenges is that the Tax Office right now has 479 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: its hands tied to an extent. Where there is financial abuse, 480 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 2: they still have to rely on the laws that they 481 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: have at their disposal. What we've been advocating for has 482 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: been US inspired innocent spouse relief, So where you can 483 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: prove abuse, the AHO can release the victims survivor from 484 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: that tax liability and instead opt to pursue the perpetrator. 485 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: Okay, I see, very good, Okay, and where's that at 486 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: an We now. 487 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: Have bipartisan support, which I'm really grateful for and please 488 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 2: to see. So both the AOP and the Coalition just 489 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: last week announced that as part of their election promises. 490 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: So something that should hopefully come up in the next parliament. 491 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: A bit look forward to seeing that change, all right. 492 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: I will look out for that in my daily role. 493 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: All right, very good, Hey, thanks very much for coming 494 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: on the show. And ks Kumar from the Tax Clinic. 495 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: Very interesting work and best of luck with it. 496 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 497 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: Great to have you on, folks. That was and ks 498 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: Kumar the Tax Clinic interesting material. If you listen back 499 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: to some of the shows we've had financial counselors and 500 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: we had the Rob Burgesson who was a financial counselor 501 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: telling us what he does there, and it's really interesting. 502 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: There's different layers when things go wrong and if you 503 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: can't pay for financial advice, it's it's quite a drop 504 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: down to where you could be taken in if you like, 505 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: by a financial counselor, where they would deal with you. Interesting. 506 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: That strata where people have businesses that go off the 507 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: rails is the strata that the tax clinics are looking at. 508 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: And of course the whole issue of abuse so big 509 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: in that area. Hopefully they get that legislation through parliament. Okay, 510 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: keep those emails coming, please, I have some space to 511 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: answer some questions, so let's have them. The Money Puzzle 512 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: at the Australian dot com dot Au. Today's show was 513 00:30:51,600 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: produced by the Isama glue talk to you soon, show 514 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: the FO