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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with Nina Fanell,

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Speaker 1: who is an advocate for education and reform in regardless

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault and reform and prevention. And Nina, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to give up looking at my notes because that

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Speaker 1: was a fascinating in conversation we had in the first

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Speaker 1: part of Eye Catch Killers, and you made me look

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Speaker 1: at things a little bit differently in a simplistic way

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Speaker 1: of giving examples of how things can gave skew if

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Speaker 1: and ethical bystander behavior, and the important role there is

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Speaker 1: for all of us to make sure that we embrace that.

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Speaker 1: You're clearly passionate about the work that you do, your

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Speaker 1: advocacy for sexual assault victims, and all the issues that

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Speaker 1: relate to the culture that causes those type of things.

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Speaker 1: It's a personal story too for you when we sit

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Speaker 1: down here, because you are actually a victim of a violent,

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Speaker 1: violent sexual assault. And I know in speaking to you

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Speaker 1: that I checked with you because I think that's important

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Speaker 1: that you're comfortable to talk about it. I think it

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Speaker 1: might enlighten people into what drives you for the work

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Speaker 1: that you do and the importance of the work that

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Speaker 1: you do. Are you comfortable to talk about the situation

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Speaker 1: you found yourself in? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And thank you for checking so kindly and seeking

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Speaker 2: my consent first. But yeah, definitely. I'm an open book, so.

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Speaker 1: Shoot, okay, And I think on that too, and what

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Speaker 1: we talked about in part one. If you've been a

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Speaker 1: victim of a sexual assault, there's so many other things

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Speaker 1: that traumatize you following it, and you need to have

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Speaker 1: control when people would come to me to report the

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Speaker 1: sexual assault I always gave them advice on these are

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Speaker 1: all the options. These are all the options. I think

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Speaker 1: you need to allow people to have that power of

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Speaker 1: control on their situation and it helps in that little bit.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to talk to us now then about

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Speaker 1: the incident that happened to you? How old were you

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Speaker 1: at the time? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Sure, and sorry, just before we get to that, just

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Speaker 2: on that as well. What you've just said of I

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Speaker 2: think you know, sexual violence is a crime about power

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Speaker 2: and control, where your agency and your control and your

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Speaker 2: choices are removed from you. And that's why in any

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Speaker 2: process that follows, whether it's a legal process or a

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Speaker 2: medical process or a journalistic process, being given options and

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Speaker 2: being afforded choice an agency is healing because it reverses

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Speaker 2: that feeling of powerlessness. And so what you just said

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Speaker 2: then that's perfect of providing people with their options rather

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Speaker 2: than trying to control or steer what they should do

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Speaker 2: or ought to do or must do in that situation.

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Speaker 2: And for anyone out there, you know, if you ever

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Speaker 2: receive a disclosure of sexual violence, what that tells me

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Speaker 2: is firstly that whoever's chosen to disclose to you really

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Speaker 2: really respects you and your opinion, but also that you're

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Speaker 2: in a very powerful position to then help that person,

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Speaker 2: and the best way is by giving them them options

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Speaker 2: and choices and affirming what they decide is best for them.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, for me, this is obviously personal. I was

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Speaker 2: twenty three and as mentioned in the first half, I

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Speaker 2: was studying journalism, media and communications at UNI and I

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Speaker 2: decided to do my honors year in media. And it

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Speaker 2: was actually the day of my honors presentation afterwards, I

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Speaker 2: was traveling home. At the time, I was living with

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Speaker 2: my parents in Sydney's Lower North Shore, and I was

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Speaker 2: walking home down our street and it's, you know, a

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Speaker 2: place that I have walked every day since I was

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Speaker 2: very little place where I walk my dog, and I

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Speaker 2: had headphones, phones in and I was listening to music

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Speaker 2: and I can still remember the song I was listening to.

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Speaker 2: And I had a man who I'd never seen before.

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Speaker 2: I just the first thing that I that alerted me

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Speaker 2: to the fact that something was happening was I felt

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Speaker 2: this whack across my back and it was here a

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Speaker 2: man had come up from behind and grabbed me. And

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Speaker 2: the next thing I remember, he was standing in front

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Speaker 2: of me and he was holding a box cut of

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Speaker 2: blade with the blade extended, and he said, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to kill you. And then he made a fist and

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Speaker 2: he punched me in the face and I fell onto

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Speaker 2: the ground, and the next thing I remember after that

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Speaker 2: was he was on top of me, strangling me, and

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Speaker 2: he he again. I remember he repeated the words that

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Speaker 2: he was going to kill me, and I understood what

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Speaker 2: he was saying, that he was going to rape me,

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Speaker 2: and that he was going to use force and violence

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Speaker 2: if I resisted. And I lay there and he indecently

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Speaker 2: sexually assaulted me, and then I and my memory flashes

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Speaker 2: backwards and forwards in different bits. I still don't even

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Speaker 2: now I've had a lot of therapy, I still don't

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Speaker 2: have complete chronological recall of what happened exactly in which order,

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Speaker 2: which again I should say, is not unusual for PTSD,

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Speaker 2: but I do. I did at one point then get

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Speaker 2: a surge of adrenaline. And people talk about the fight

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Speaker 2: flight fight flight freeze response. There's also the foreign response.

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Speaker 2: I know now with the benefit of having some education

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Speaker 2: around it, that initially I was in a complete freeze

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Speaker 2: paralysis response, but halfway through the attack that suddenly switched

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Speaker 2: and it was like a light switch. It just went

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Speaker 2: like that, and I got this surge of adrenaline and

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Speaker 2: it clicked in for me what turned into a fight response,

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Speaker 2: and I began fighting and thrashing, and because he'd been

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Speaker 2: strangling me, my throat had been somewhat you know, I

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Speaker 2: couldn't breathe and it had been somewhat crushed. But I

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Speaker 2: tried to scream, and I tried to yell, I'll kill

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Speaker 2: you first, and I went for his eyes with my hands.

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Speaker 2: I remember it as a scream, but in reality it

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Speaker 2: was probably a horse or a very coarse attempt. And

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Speaker 2: what happened was when I started fighting, he then stopped

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Speaker 2: what he was doing. He and there was a moment

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Speaker 2: and where it was clear that he'd lost control, and

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Speaker 2: he then stood and fled. And the next thing I

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Speaker 2: remember after that is being in a standing position. I

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Speaker 2: don't remember climbing off my back. I just remember I

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Speaker 2: was suddenly standing and looking down at my hands, and

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Speaker 2: there were blood on my hand, there was blood on

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Speaker 2: my hats, and I remember I do remember having consciously

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Speaker 2: having a thought of I don't know if this is

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Speaker 2: my blood or his blood, because I'd fought, and so

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Speaker 2: I remember looking down at my body to see if

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Speaker 2: I was bleeding, because I was worried that because I'd

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Speaker 2: seen the box cut blad, I was worried I might

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Speaker 2: have been stabbed. And I had so much adrenaline, and

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Speaker 2: if you've ever had that kind of adrenaline, it's it

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Speaker 2: was so intense that I knew that if I had

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Speaker 2: been stabbed, I wasn't feeling it. So I checked my

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Speaker 2: body to see if I'd been stabbed, and I hadn't.

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Speaker 2: We found I discovered later it was just some defensive

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Speaker 2: scuffs that had caused blood. But and then I picked

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Speaker 2: up my phone and called the police, called Triple zero,

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Speaker 2: as I was then running home, and I remember saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, my name's Nina Fanel, I live it. Blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah. I've just been attacked. And they

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Speaker 2: took the details, and I remember at the time on

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Speaker 2: the phone thinking I need to be calm, I need

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Speaker 2: to be calm and try and give my address and

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Speaker 2: give the information. And the person who who was on

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Speaker 2: the phone to me took the information and then hung

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Speaker 2: up and I wasn't home yet, and I remember in

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Speaker 2: that moment, I have never felt so abandoned in my

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Speaker 2: life as I did in that moment, because that was

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Speaker 2: my one lifeline, and I didn't know whether he was

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Speaker 2: still in the area, whether he was going to attack

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Speaker 2: me again, whether he was I had that kind of

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Speaker 2: image in my head of you know, the horror movie,

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Speaker 2: whether the hand comes back and grabs the person. And

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Speaker 2: I called back and I said, you know, I repeated

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Speaker 2: the information and said I think I've been cut off

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Speaker 2: the phone, and they said, no, you weren't cut off. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and you weren't cut off. No, that we're sending someone.

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Speaker 2: And I just remember thinking, I mean, I think now

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Speaker 2: there's much better training and they know you have to

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Speaker 2: stay on the line to someone until you get to safety.

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Speaker 2: But so I got home and because this was all

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Speaker 2: a few hundred meters from my front door that this happened,

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Speaker 2: and I remember getting my key out and my hand

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Speaker 2: was shaking so much. I couldn't couldn't hold the key

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Speaker 2: stable to get it into the door initially, but then

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Speaker 2: I got in and pretty shortly after the police arrived

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Speaker 2: and it was the weirdest It was the weirdest conversation

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Speaker 2: I think I've ever had because it was such a horrific,

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Speaker 2: shocking thing that had happened that I didn't know how to.

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Speaker 2: You know, the police arrived at my front door, and

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Speaker 2: my reaction was to kind of play host, like would

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Speaker 2: you like to come in? Would you like a cup

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Speaker 2: of tea? Like, because I was like, how does somebody

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Speaker 2: what do you do in this moment? How do you

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Speaker 2: make sense?

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Speaker 1: You know, we shouldn't be laughing, but I understand it's

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Speaker 1: because people like yourself haven't had situations like that occur,

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Speaker 1: and so your your behavior is understandable, weird but weird,

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Speaker 1: weird but understandable.

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Speaker 2: So they they took me back to the park straight

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Speaker 2: away where and looking back, I'm so glad that they

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Speaker 2: did that because I was still in such a heightened

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Speaker 2: fight stage.

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Speaker 1: I was.

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Speaker 2: I was ready to get the guy, like I wanted

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Speaker 2: to go back with them, and I thought they would

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Speaker 2: find him and getting there, like.

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Speaker 1: And I was go back and hunt him down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted and I wanted to kill him like

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Speaker 2: I was. I was angry, And I'm glad that we

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Speaker 2: went back then when I was in that stage, because

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Speaker 2: I went back with guys and by then the dog

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Speaker 2: squad the dogs had there was a dog person there

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Speaker 2: and other people. There were other police cars there, and

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Speaker 2: I felt safe because there was all of this energy

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Speaker 2: and you know there, so I didn't feel afraid. And

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Speaker 2: I'm really glad that that happened before the next day

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Speaker 2: because I think it would have been I think it

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Speaker 2: made going back to that place in that park much

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Speaker 2: easier than it would have been had I avoided still

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Speaker 2: in the moment. Yeah, So we went back to the park.

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Speaker 2: They could see the signs of the scuffle. My necklace

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Speaker 2: had been ripped off, I'd dropped my university notes, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'd been drinking a bottle of soft drink that was

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Speaker 2: lying like you could see what had happened sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: And then they took me to the police station and

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Speaker 2: you know, for me to give a statement about what

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Speaker 2: had happened. And I remember, because this is going back

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Speaker 2: to two thousand and seven, so it's been a while now,

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Speaker 2: but one of the things that I had a very

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Speaker 2: good female sexual assault detective who came out that night

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Speaker 2: and she was great, but I remember them saying, would

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Speaker 2: you like a support person with you through this? And

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Speaker 2: at the time, my mum was in perth on business

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Speaker 2: and my dad was at home and he hadn't seen

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Speaker 2: me because of the way the layout of our house

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Speaker 2: is such that he was upstairs in his bedroom and

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Speaker 2: he hadn't heard me come in and hadn't heard me

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Speaker 2: bring the police in. We just I'd done that very

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Speaker 2: very quietly and then gone. And I'd made that decision

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Speaker 2: because I knew that if my dad was there and

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Speaker 2: he heard what had happened to me, he would want

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Speaker 2: to go out and probably kill the first person he

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Speaker 2: found that looked remotely like the person who had done

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Speaker 2: this to me. And I knew that if he was

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Speaker 2: sitting there having to hear what had happened, I would

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Speaker 2: probably self censor some of the more graphic detail to

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Speaker 2: protect and and shield his emotional response into And so

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Speaker 2: for that reason, I made the decision that I was

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Speaker 2: going to report alone, which I did, and then they

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Speaker 2: linked me in with the Sexual Assault Service after that,

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Speaker 2: and I remember the Sexual Assault Service. The counselor an

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Speaker 2: amazing woman. This was over at role not sure sexual

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Speaker 2: Assault Service, so I very much credit with kind of

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Speaker 2: piecing me back together in the aftermath. And the counselor

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Speaker 2: is an amazing woman called Susan Kendall, and she said

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Speaker 2: one of the first things that she said when I

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Speaker 2: came in, she said, I want to tell you that

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Speaker 2: this is not your fault. You're not to blame. And

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Speaker 2: my response to that was, of course, not my fucking fault.

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Speaker 2: What's wrong with you? I didn't say it was my fault, like,

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Speaker 2: is that what you think? And she stopped and she said, no,

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Speaker 2: I don't. But most people who walk through that doorframe

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Speaker 2: do think it's their fault, and that really kind of

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Speaker 2: it's always sat I've always remembered that moment because I

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Speaker 2: remember being very offended that she had even kind of

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Speaker 2: suggested that I might. Yeah, but then when she put

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Speaker 2: it in that context, and I realized, like, right, that's right,

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Speaker 2: Like people come through this door every day thinking that

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Speaker 2: this is their fault. And I think that, you know,

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Speaker 2: part of the reason why I, very very early on

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Speaker 2: in the process didn't feel blame, self blame or self

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Speaker 2: shame is probably because I grew up with a very

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Speaker 2: strong feminist understanding of the causes of these crimes and

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Speaker 2: that it's not a person's fault. But also, I think

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Speaker 2: the other thing is is that you know, if we

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Speaker 2: look at the statistics around sexual violence, most sexual violence

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Speaker 2: is not the stranger danger stuff like I experienced. It

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Speaker 2: is the family member, the friend, the boyfriend, the person known.

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Speaker 2: And because my experience did fit that, and it's a cliche,

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Speaker 2: you know, the stranger danger thing, but it's because it

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Speaker 2: fit with that. I already had an available narrative or

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Speaker 2: mold or stereotype to place my assault as rapist, yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that this guy was a bad guy and that

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Speaker 2: this was not my fault. And of course it's never

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Speaker 2: the person's fault, but I I that night at the

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Speaker 2: police station. They took photographs of my injuries because I've

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Speaker 2: been punched and strangled and so on, and my hands

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Speaker 2: and everything, and they also took DNA swabs. And my

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Speaker 2: primary response after that was anger. And it's actually interesting

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Speaker 2: that we talked before about the NRL work that I've done,

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Speaker 2: and we used to ask the players to imagine a

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Speaker 2: female friend of theirs coming to them and revealing that

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Speaker 2: she'd been sexually assaulted, and we would ask the players

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Speaker 2: what feelings she'd be feeling, or if someone's been sexually sulted,

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Speaker 2: what might they feel, And some of their responses would

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Speaker 2: be things like a shamed, embarrassed, so on, And then

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Speaker 2: I would ask them and how would you feel if

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Speaker 2: you'd been sexually assaulted? And you can see them like

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Speaker 2: double in size, and they immediately go angry, angry, And

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Speaker 2: that was my reaction. I was angry. And it's interesting

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Speaker 2: that culturally, I think anger is often an emotion that

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Speaker 2: we reserve for men, and it's not often it's not

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Speaker 2: the most common reaction when you say, how do you

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Speaker 2: think a woman would feel who's been sexual assaulted? But

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Speaker 2: a lot of women do feel angry. They feel really

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Speaker 2: fucking pissed off that their rights have been violated in

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Speaker 2: this way. But of course, you know, and I should say,

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Speaker 2: there is no one normal way to feel following a

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Speaker 2: sexu assault. That was just my response.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's the division between the male response and

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Speaker 1: the female I understand what you're saying. And yeah, it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: isn't it the group of blokes or shame and yeah,

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Speaker 1: like I'm a victim and their responses.

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Speaker 2: Anger and yeah, like you're And so where this had happened.

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Speaker 2: It was the street that I lived on at the time.

300
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Speaker 2: It was opposite a girl's high school. And I remember

301
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Speaker 2: also feeling very angry that, yes, he had attacked me

302
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Speaker 2: because I happened to be the person walking there at

303
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Speaker 2: that particular moment. But had it not been me, it

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00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 2: could have been any one of those girls, or one

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Speaker 2: of the teachers, or you know, it could have been

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Speaker 2: any woman. And so in that moment, I understood that

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Speaker 2: this was not just an attack on me. This is

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Speaker 2: an attack on all women and girls and their right

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Speaker 2: to feel safe. And so so I went public five

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Speaker 2: weeks after the assault. And part of that was because

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Speaker 2: they hadn't found the guy. And I knew, you know,

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Speaker 2: having studied journalism, I knew that if I put my

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Speaker 2: face and my name to my story it would help.

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Speaker 1: Had it attracted some media attention prior to you speaking out.

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Speaker 2: No, No, So the police were doing their investigation. They

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Speaker 2: had that I'd done the comfit, which.

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Speaker 1: You might want to explain that a comfit is you

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Speaker 1: would have sat down, don't provide the description of what

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Speaker 1: the person looked like. And then then are you talking

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Speaker 1: about being shown fatos as well or just a comfit?

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Speaker 1: First up? When it's done the artists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they did the impression. They did the artist

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Speaker 2: impression first start.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes they all look the same look, sometimes they work,

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Speaker 1: sometimes they don't. But I've jake sometimes throughout my career.

326
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Speaker 1: How come this one looks like that one looks like

327
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Speaker 1: that one. Yeah, they all look the same.

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Speaker 2: So I'd done, I've done the comfit, they'd drawn the sketch,

329
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Speaker 2: and then they'd brought me in to go through the

330
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Speaker 2: through these big folders of photos.

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Speaker 1: Of fenders folds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he wasn't in there, and I felt like

333
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,919
Speaker 2: I would have recognized I got a good look at him,

334
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Speaker 2: so I felt like I would have recognized him. So

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Speaker 2: after five weeks, I.

336
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Speaker 1: You told me is something yesterday and I said, I

337
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Speaker 1: want to talk about it too, because I just think

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Speaker 1: that these type of subtle things need to be understood.

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Speaker 1: And you've said, full credit to the female sexual assault detective,

340
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: that was very good. But when you were being showing

341
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Speaker 1: the photos, there were two police probably detectives standing behind

342
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Speaker 1: you having a conversation. And what was the conversation, So.

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Speaker 2: The conversation that they were having, and you know, to

344
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Speaker 2: set the scene, this is an incredibly stressful you know,

345
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,239
Speaker 2: my injuries had not healed at this point, and it

346
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: was an incredibly stressful I'm looking through these images and

347
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 2: quite scary to be looking at all these different offenders'

348
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 2: faces and the conversation was about girls and the problem

349
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 2: like the risky situations that women put themselves in, and

350
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Speaker 2: how women don't understand the risks, and it was.

351
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Speaker 1: It lacked sensitivity and awareness.

352
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and in that moment, and you know, this is

353
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Speaker 2: something I've reflected on quite a lot. I was it

354
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 2: was so raw, it was so incredibly raw, and anything

355
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 2: other than calm, compassionate support was going to trigger feelings

356
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 2: of like that that they are victim blaming me. I

357
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 2: don't think that was their intention. I think that they

358
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: were almost that they almost may have had a benevolent,

359
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 2: paternalistic kind of approach to young women or these poor

360
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 2: young women they just don't understand the risks are putting

361
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Speaker 2: themselves in. But in that moment, what I heard was

362
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 2: them saying, this is your fault. Love, That's what I heard.

363
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 2: And so I think, you know, it's really important that

364
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: we do a lot of education and support for any

365
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: kind of person who's working in a frontline role who

366
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: might be interfacing with sexual assault survivors because the damage.

367
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: You know, we know now that one of the the

368
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: number one thing that impacts on a person's capacity to

369
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: recover following a sexual assault is the attitudes that they

370
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: hear on disclosure and if those attitudes are I believe you,

371
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: this is you know, I believe you, this is serious.

372
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: What's happened is not your fault, and I am here

373
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 2: to support you in whatever way that looks like for you.

374
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 2: That can have a really profound impact on a person's

375
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 2: capacity to other whereas comments like oh you know girl,

376
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: you know, like whatever the comment is, if it deviates

377
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: from that, that can cause a person to shut down.

378
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 2: And some people may not ever disclose again.

379
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 1: Because the traumas happened. But then you've been re traumatized

380
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: if it's not handled handled properly.

381
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I did you know, I did have There

382
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 2: were people in my life at that point who did

383
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 2: say unhelpful things like I had one one friend say,

384
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: you have to admit it was pretty stupid of you

385
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 2: to be walking home alone. There's no other way to

386
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: get it, you know, like that's how I get.

387
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: Home, idiot, what were you thinking walking on the street.

388
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, lots of when my story did

389
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: go public, there was a lot of you know, silly girl,

390
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 2: she shouldn't have been wearing her headphones, that kind of stuff.

391
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 2: The worst comment And again like, this was back in

392
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, so very different in terms of

393
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: social media. Facebook. I remember Facebook, I think was established

394
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: that year and someone made the comment underneath an article

395
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: about me that said, what can I still remember? It

396
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: was what a conceited bitch for thinking she was worthy

397
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 2: of being raped? The guy just probably gave her a

398
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 2: good bashing, in which case, job well done. And I

399
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 2: just like, now I look back and go, well, that's

400
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 2: you know, that's why we turned comments off. That's why

401
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: we don't have open comment sections on articles. And I

402
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 2: don't know why back then they didn't, but I still

403
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 2: remember word for word that comment. And of course now

404
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 2: you know, I can see that that's clearly a nutter,

405
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 2: but back then I didn't. When I went public, I

406
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 2: didn't actually have anyone steering me through that process. So

407
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: one of the things that I do now when I'm

408
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 2: working with sexual assault survivors who are going public for

409
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: the first time, is I have a whole checklist, and

410
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: one of those one of the things on the checklist

411
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: is is there anyone in your family, all your friends

412
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: who hasn't heard your story yet who you would like

413
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 2: to tell before it comes out in the media, Because

414
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 2: by the time I went public my I told my

415
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: parents the very next day. I waited till my mum

416
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 2: got home from Perth, and I sat them down at

417
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: the kitchen table and they could see something was obviously

418
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 2: very wrong. And I sat them down and I just said,

419
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 2: I told them, and then I said, before you say anything,

420
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 2: here are the things I need you not to do.

421
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: And I sort of gave them a script of what

422
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: I wanted them to do and not do. And they

423
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 2: were They were great, they were fantastic.

424
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: What can I ask? What were they?

425
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 2: I said to them, I need you not to ask

426
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: me while I was walking home alone, or what I

427
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: was wearing, or if I'd been drinking, or because I

428
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: actually had had a couple of drinks after unique because

429
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: we've done our presentation, celebrated and sold and so I

430
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: kind of went through, like I need you when I

431
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,439
Speaker 2: when that question had come up with the female detective,

432
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: Actually that was quite interesting. She was as I said,

433
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 2: she was great. She said to me, I'm going to

434
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: have to ask you some questions. And some of those

435
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: questions might sound like I'm blaming you, but I'm not.

436
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 2: But I need to ask these questions. Clarification, Yeah, and

437
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 2: she said, so, I'm needing. I need to ask you

438
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: if you've had anything to drink tonight. And the reason

439
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 2: why I need to ask you is because of Da

440
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: da da da da, and by her putting that framing

441
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: around it, then when she asked the question, I didn't

442
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: take offense or feel slighted by it. And I think

443
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: because of that, then when I was speaking to my parents,

444
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 2: I almost adopted that of that script of saying, here

445
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 2: are the things I don't want you to say to me,

446
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 2: and here are the things that I do want want,

447
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: which is I want to you know, I need a

448
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: hug and yeah, so so yeah. Five weeks later I oh, yeah.

449
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: One of the when I said the thing about who

450
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: is there anyone in your family or friends, the reason

451
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 2: for that was because my immediate family knew by the

452
00:27:54,600 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 2: time I went public, but extended it. Standard relatives, for example, didn't,

453
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: and so they were finding out via the front page.

454
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: And that of course sets off a round robin of

455
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: phone calls and panic and confusion about you know, should

456
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: we be sharing this story, should we be like does

457
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: she want us to call?

458
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: Do we not go? So?

459
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: Now with survivors, one of the things that we'll do

460
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: is we'll we'll actually talk them through. Before your story

461
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: comes out, you might want to think about who you

462
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: tell if you haven't told everybody, But you also might

463
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: want to think about putting up something on your own

464
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: social media that guides people on what response you want,

465
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: so that says to them, you know, ways to support me.

466
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 2: You know, later this week you might see my story

467
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: coming out in the media. Some really useful things that

468
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 2: would help me would be if you share my story

469
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: because I want it, because that shows people what you want.

470
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 2: I'm you know, sometimes people might write, I'm going to

471
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: be logging off for the next couple of weeks, but

472
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: by all means send me a text message of support.

473
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: Just don't call me right now. I need some space, so,

474
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: you know, actually mapping out for people and managing people's expectations. Yeah,

475
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: So with the I guess the process of going public

476
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: and having some bumps in that then also taught me

477
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: why I wanted to become a journalist who specialized in

478
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,479
Speaker 2: reporting sexual violence in a way that was safer or

479
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: more empowering for the survivor that returned agency and control.

480
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 2: Because I did have some journalists tell my story very

481
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: respectfully but I also had a couple of shockers.

482
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: And they're the bumps you're talking of.

483
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there were, but also just like little things

484
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: like I remember one editor she she had gone around

485
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: me to the police to ask for a copy of

486
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: my police state. And when that happened again, because I'm

487
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 2: so hypersensitized at the time, I experienced that as her

488
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: disbelieving me, because I thought, why are you why checking

489
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: up on my like and why not just ask me

490
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: for a copy of my police statement? Why have you

491
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,239
Speaker 2: gone around me? And so I experienced that as her

492
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: disbelieving me. Now, as a journalist with a different hat,

493
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 2: I go, oh, she was fact checking like that, it's standard,

494
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: But no one explained that to me in that moment.

495
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: And so part of what you know, a trauma informed

496
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: practice as a journalist is about is understanding things like

497
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 2: why it's really important to explain every single step to

498
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: the person of what you're doing and why you're doing

499
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: it and when you're doing it. So now if I

500
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: have to, you know, and if I was in that

501
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: same situation now as the journalist, I would tell the person, Hey,

502
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 2: I need to contact the police and ask for a

503
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: copy of your police statement. The reason why I'm doing

504
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: that is X, Y and Z, and in that way,

505
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: when it happens, it doesn't feel uncomfortable. So yeah, there

506
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 2: were things things like that. I also had one male

507
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: journalist and this is astonishing looking back, and I hope

508
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: you know it's an era. It's a marker of the era.

509
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: I had one male journalist who interviewed me about the

510
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: attack and then proceeded to hit on.

511
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,239
Speaker 1: Me, Hello, you're missing the point there a little bit.

512
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that was probably the most looking about that

513
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: was probably the most shocking thing. And I had one

514
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: female journalist say, oh, she said, you're a pretty girl.

515
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: You could take it as a compliment that he selected.

516
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: You, and I just again missing missing the point completely.

517
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: And I think in that moment it was because she

518
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 2: didn't know what to say, and so she reached the awkward.

519
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: She reached for something, and she realized as soon as

520
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: she'd said it, how stupid, stupid it was, and how

521
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: clumsy it was. The the thing though, that I probably

522
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: learned most from that process of going public was, or

523
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: the thing that I hadn't anticipated, was that when you

524
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:12,959
Speaker 2: go public with your story, yes, there are unexpected bumps

525
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: that you that happened, But the biggest one was the

526
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: amount of disclosures I received from other survivors, and that

527
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: was the thing I wasn't expecting, and no one had

528
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: actually preconditioned or prepared me of what do you do

529
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 2: with that information? And at you know, all of twenty three,

530
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: I thought it was my responsibility to try to. You know,

531
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: someone opens up and they tell you that they're hurting,

532
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,959
Speaker 2: so you want to heal that hurt. You want to

533
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: respond in a way.

534
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: That's it's not empathy, just your small circle of friends.

535
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: You've opened yourself up to so many people getting undated.

536
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: So I was getting I was getting yeah, complete strangers,

537
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: as well as people in my own life. And I

538
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 2: remember like one of the things that happened was some

539
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 2: of my high school teachers contacted me after I'd gone

540
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 2: public and disclose their own experiences of sexual violence, which

541
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 2: was really overwhelming for me, not just because I was

542
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 2: suddenly coping with my own trauma, but now I'm also

543
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: taking on all of these additional stories without necessarily having

544
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: the right boundaries and frameworks in place. But also when

545
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: you're in school, you kind of see teachers as that

546
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: you know, you don't think of them as having a

547
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: life outside of being that teacher. They're you know, they're

548
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: kind of their existence and so to suddenly have this

549
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: information was somewhat overwhelming. So again, now when survivors do

550
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: go public, one of the things that we're working through

551
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 2: journalistically is preparing them for what the impact or fallout

552
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: might be. Also preparing them by giving them strategy so

553
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: that if they do receive a disclosure, understanding if we're

554
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: not trained counselors. You know, one of my beliefs is

555
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 2: that anyone who's been impacted by sexual balance is entitled

556
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 2: to the best to help out there. And I'm not

557
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: a counselor, so that's not me. The best thing I

558
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: can do is refer that person on to a professional service. Yeah,

559
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: so that's a conversation that I now have with any

560
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: survivors who are going public. If you receive a disclosure,

561
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: it is not our job to play therapist. The best,

562
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: most respectful thing that we can do in that moment

563
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: is to help refer to a warm referral by all means,

564
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: but which means, you know, helping connect that person in

565
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: with service.

566
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 1: So the experience that you got from from being a victim,

567
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: there there was some other aspects of it there that

568
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: in discussions we've had that the DNA samples taken hadn't

569
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: been tested for what seemed to be an extraordinary time frame.

570
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was. So they took the DNA

571
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: that night from me with swabs, and I think it

572
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: was about five I'd have to check, but about five

573
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: months that had passed and it still hadn't been tested.

574
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: And I in that the headspace that I was in

575
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 2: at the time was like every day I couldn't think

576
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: about anything else. The assault was in like replaying every

577
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: day in my mind, and I wasn't sleeping, I was

578
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: having panic attacks. I was a mess. And I remember

579
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 2: really needing that answer of have they tested the DNA

580
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: and do they have a match? Because if they do

581
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 2: have a match, then they're going to go off and

582
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 2: arrest the guy, and that means that I'm going to

583
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: need to prepare for a trial. And so that's one course.

584
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 2: The alternative is they don't have a match or they

585
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 2: don't get any DNA, in which case I may never

586
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 2: get justice, and I need to start making thinking about

587
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 2: what does recovery mean? What does justice mean if there

588
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 2: is no formal criminals.

589
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: So it requires a different mindset totally.

590
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: One mindset is about preparing for court. It's about not

591
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: wanting to lose any of the detail. It's about retaining

592
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: as much of the memory as possible, so revisiting and

593
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: replaying the memory every day in my mind so that

594
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: I'm not losing words or colors or whatever. The alternative

595
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: is trying to make peace with the fact that I

596
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: don't control the outcome of this and I may never

597
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 2: go to trial, and I am allowing myself to forget

598
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 2: or to I guess you'll never forget, but allowing myself

599
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 2: to not obsess over the memory. And you know, since then,

600
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: I've had a type oftherapy called E MDR therapy, which

601
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: actually helps put some distance between you and the memory.

602
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: And that's the kind of thing that you know, I

603
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 2: could only make that decision that I was going to

604
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 2: do that kind of therapy. I mean, this gives it

605
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: away of what happened. But once I realized that I

606
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 2: was very unlikely to get my day in court. So yeah,

607
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: so after five months of me not hearing and wondering

608
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: every single day, is today that I get the phone call.

609
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: I couldn't handle it anymore. So I, and I'd been

610
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: asking for updates and so on, and it just hadn't happened.

611
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: So I wrote a press release and I sent it

612
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 2: off to the media to say, you know, this is

613
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: the crime. It happened office at a girl's high school,

614
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 2: and the DNA has not been tested. And that's because

615
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 2: of the nature of the crime and because of the

616
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 2: fact that he represents a threat not just to me,

617
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: Nina Fanel, but a threat to the entire community. I

618
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 2: would have thought it would have been a priority to

619
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 2: get that DNA tested, And so it was picked up

620
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: on the seven nightly News. They run it as their

621
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: lead story that night, and the following day the Premier,

622
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: Morris Yemma gave a doorstop interview about it and he

623
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: said that he had seen the report and that he

624
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: was insisting that they test the DNA that had been provided.

625
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: So that got tested within about twenty four to forty

626
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 2: eight hours from doing that media story, and what they

627
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 2: found was they did get male DNA, but they didn't

628
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 2: have a match in the system, which was a part

629
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: like that for me was it was helpful vindication that

630
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 2: there was male DNA because it meant that no one

631
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 2: could then ever I mean, like not that they could anyway,

632
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 2: like I had bruising and all this, but it was

633
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 2: good to get an answer and at least to know

634
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 2: where I stood. But of course it was frustrating that

635
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: they didn't have a match in the system, but it

636
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 2: did allow me to, I guess, begin planning a little

637
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: bit for the future, because I realized that as time

638
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 2: went on and there were no leads, I had to

639
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: begin to kind of make peace with the fact that

640
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 2: I wasn't able to control the outcoming. Again, you know,

641
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: I said before sexual assault, it's all about, you know,

642
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 2: feelings of loss of control and powerlessness and helplessness. And

643
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: to not be able to be in the driver's seat afterwards,

644
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 2: and not to be able to control the outcome and

645
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: to have to surrender that to the cops and the

646
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: universe is a really hard thing to do. But in

647
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 2: that moment where the premiere stepped in and said, okay,

648
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 2: test this girl's DNA, I also realized I'd made a

649
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 2: really categorical error, which is I'd only ask for my

650
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: DNA to be tested and.

651
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 1: Could have been on the platform.

652
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: And looking back, I wish and this is probably what

653
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 2: also so to seed in me to become a campaigner

654
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 2: because I realized. I mean, look, I was so traumatized

655
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: at the time that I wasn't thinking straight anyway and

656
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 2: hardly sleeping and so on. But looking back, I can

657
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 2: say like in that moment, I missed a campaigning opportunity,

658
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: which was I should have asked for there to be

659
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: a complete resolution in the backlog of DNA testing so

660
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 2: that otherwise what's happened is I've just jumped to the

661
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 2: front of the queue and everybody else has been pushed

662
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 2: by one day in the qere.

663
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: But the sad part on that, there's a couple couple

664
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: of points. I'd just like to make the nature of

665
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: that crime. What's happened to you that is, that's right

666
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: up there with this is danger, as in this person

667
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: could reoffend again. And I think I mentioned to you

668
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: yesterday I worked on the North Shore rapist, which I

669
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: think predated this attack. But he was attacking people on

670
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 1: the north Shore at night walking home, just ladies walking

671
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: walking home on their own. Graham Kay, his name is.

672
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: He's been in the media a bit. It frustrates me

673
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: that police can't identify that there's a serious matter that

674
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: you had to go to the media and then get

675
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: the premiere involved and then all of a sudden it

676
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: can be done. I take on board what you're saying

677
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: that was a campaign opportunity, but we would like to

678
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,439
Speaker 1: think that is done and that any victim that goes

679
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: to the police that yeah, the world has changed in

680
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: terms of crime investigation, DNA and forensic science is such

681
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: a crucial part as a victim. It would be frustrating

682
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 1: to you that you have to keep contacting and then

683
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: had to go. At least you had the ability to

684
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: go to the media. But could you imagine if you

685
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: didn't have the ability do well or yeah.

686
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: And the ability to go, but also the willingness to

687
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: be identified, you know. And of course it shouldn't be

688
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: it should never be on the backs of survivors to

689
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: have to advocate for their own justice where you know

690
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 2: that they survivors should be focused on their healing and recovery,

691
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 2: not on having to hold this system to account. But

692
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: it's interesting now in the work that I do journalistically

693
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: that one of the most common concerns or complaints that

694
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: I hear from sexual assault survivors about the criminal justice

695
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: system are the long delays and the radio silence. It's

696
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: such a common frustration. And again it's the reason why

697
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 2: it's so traumatizing or re traumatizing to be met with

698
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 2: radio silence and long delays is because it again makes

699
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: you feel powerless. So it again puts you.

700
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: Back in that that trauma, that.

701
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 2: Trauma of feeling helpless and unable to control the outcome,

702
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: which you know, I sort of look back at my

703
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: career and I can now you know certainly that night

704
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 2: it's twenty fifth of May two thousand and seven. It

705
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 2: is the line in the sand for me. There was

706
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 2: Nina before and Nina after.

707
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: I was going to ask that very thing. How has

708
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,720
Speaker 1: it impacted on you? And I can see you're talking

709
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: about it. I can see you actually processing your emotions

710
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: as you talk talk about it.

711
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 2: It's been a really long time since I have talked

712
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 2: about it like this. This is the first time in

713
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: a very long time that I've revisited the memory in

714
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: a sense, it is there every day because it's just

715
00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 2: part of the back of my like it's in the

716
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 2: back of my brain, and it's part of why I

717
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: do what I do, but I don't often verbalize it.

718
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: And it definitely was as I said, it was a

719
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: line in the sand. But before that moment, my outlook

720
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: on the world was quite different.

721
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: I think.

722
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that was robbed from

723
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 2: me that night was my sense of safety in the

724
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: world and my belief that the world is generally a

725
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: safe place. And so I do have PTSD and it

726
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 2: does impact a whole bunch of things.

727
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: But the.

728
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 2: Aftermath of that has been I have tried to use

729
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: it as a springboard and as the fuel to drive

730
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: the advocacy, the journalism and so on that I do now,

731
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 2: and to try to take what was essentially an event

732
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: in my life that I had absolutely no choice or

733
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 2: control over it happening to me, and I've then tried

734
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: to use that and turn it into a platform to

735
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 2: assist others or to draw constructive meaning out of something

736
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 2: that was inherently senseless. And I suppose part of that

737
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: is also because I didn't get formal justice and won't well,

738
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 2: it's unlikely at this point that I've had to find

739
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: what does justice mean for me? And if I'm not

740
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: going to get formal justice from the criminal system, what

741
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: does it mean to recover in a community? And how

742
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,839
Speaker 2: do I use the skills or the tools or whatever

743
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 2: that I do have to extract justice. And for me,

744
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 2: part of that is, like if you look at when

745
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 2: I was doing the let Her Speak campaign, part of

746
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: that was, you know, I'd met Grace when she was

747
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: twenty two and I was twenty three when I went public,

748
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: and it very much struck me that had my assault

749
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: happened in Hobart instead of Sydney, I wouldn't have had

750
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: that ability to go public, And so fighting for the

751
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 2: rights of other survivors to be able to tell their story,

752
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: for me, that's part of my justice because that's part

753
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: of me getting agency back.

754
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: The longer I see the world of crime and the

755
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: things that happened, justice comes in many ways. And yeah,

756
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: I also see how people turn negative events into not

757
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,240
Speaker 1: let the anger define them, but channel it into something positive.

758
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: We talked about Thomas Kelly's parents and the work that

759
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: they've done, and there's countless people that have been touched

760
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: by crime in the most horrific of circumstances and turned

761
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: it round. But looking at the work work that you're

762
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: doing and the messaging that's getting out, the campaign you're

763
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: working on, now, do you want to talk about that?

764
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely? So it's called justice shouldn't hurt take the stand,

765
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: which the idea came back in twenty twenty two, I

766
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 2: was contact by two sisters, Rose and Pipper Milthorpe who

767
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: had been sexually abused as children. And they had and

768
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 2: this was in Aubrey, which you don't know it. It's

769
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,479
Speaker 2: a little country town on the New South Wales border

770
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: with Victoria. And those girls had told their parents when

771
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: the youngest was age five. The guy was charged. It

772
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: took two and a half years to get to court.

773
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 2: And for those two little girls, because they were both

774
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: going to be giving evidence, and because their parents were

775
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: both going to be giving evidence as well, it was

776
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 2: the offender was a family friend, they were not allowed

777
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 2: to talk to each other about the crime in that

778
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 2: two and a half year lead up because you know,

779
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 2: as you know, it contaminate evidence, etc. So for two

780
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 2: and a half years, these little girls were carrying that

781
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 2: knowledge of what had happened to them without being able

782
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: to speak to their parents. Then when it got to court,

783
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: they ran into the pedophile of the offender. Like most

784
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: people don't realize that courts don't have separate waiting areas

785
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 2: of separate entrances, so they literally ran into the offender

786
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: in the foyer. It was then the case was moved

787
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 2: to Sydney, and so these little girls had to live

788
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 2: out of their suitcases for three months for the trial

789
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: in a different city, with their parents who weren't allowed

790
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 2: in the courtroom while they were giving evidence. And then

791
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 2: one of the little girls, she faced days of cross

792
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 2: examination before a jury member fell asleep, and when the

793
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 2: jury member fell asleep, the judge decided they had no

794
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 2: other option than to release the entire jury and panel

795
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: a new jury and start all over again. And both

796
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 2: of the girls said that they left that system more

797
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 2: traumatized than when they entered it.

798
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: What you've just explained, I can understand, understand.

799
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 2: It's horrendou And so for years that family were writing

800
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 2: to the Attorney General saying this is not acceptable. And

801
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: by that stage a program called the Child Sexual Offense

802
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 2: Evidence Program had been developed, and the point of that

803
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,919
Speaker 2: program is to make court far less traumatic for child

804
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 2: sexual assault survivors and also to massively reduce the amount

805
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 2: of time so that from that moment of giving your

806
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: first police interview to the end should be no longer

807
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: than about six months, so that you don't have your

808
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: life put on hold. And you know, it's horrendous enough

809
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 2: when an adult has their life put on hold for

810
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: two to three years going through the system, but at

811
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 2: that age developmentally, to have those girls aging, you know,

812
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: graduating from year five, you.

813
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: Know it could be stunting them emotional.

814
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So this program called the Child Sexual Offense Evidence

815
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 2: Program was developed and it was evaluated and it's been

816
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: proven to be incredibly effective at reducing trauma. But the

817
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 2: problem was that it was only available in two courts

818
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,240
Speaker 2: in New South Wales, being Newcastle on the Downing Center.

819
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 2: And this is what we call post code justice, where

820
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 2: your ability to access a program or a service or

821
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: justice is conditional on the post code that you live in.

822
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: And so for kids who were in rural, regional or

823
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 2: remote areas, you know, it was tough luck. You don't

824
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 2: get access to this program that's proven to be effective

825
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 2: in reducing trauma. So the sisters contacted me and they said,

826
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 2: we want to advocate for this program to be properly

827
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 2: funded so that it's available in every district court. And

828
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: I thought this has all of the makings of a

829
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 2: really good campaign. The ask is clear, measurable and specific.

830
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: There is a clear decision maker, and there is a

831
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: clear evidence base that shows the program works and they

832
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: have a very strong case study. My concern is that

833
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 2: at the time that they contacted me, the youngest of

834
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 2: the sisters were still fourteen, and I thought, ah, she's

835
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 2: too young to go public. And in New South Wales, incidentally,

836
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: the age is fourteen that you can go public. But

837
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: I just thought it is such a big decision. And

838
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 2: she wrote me a letter and she said, Nina, at

839
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 2: age five, I was old enough to sit in a

840
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 2: room and tell the police what had happened to me.

841
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 2: At age seven and a half, I was old enough

842
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: to sit on the stand and be cross examined for

843
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 2: days on end. Who are you to tell me that

844
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 2: at age fourteen, I'm not old enough to own my story,

845
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 2: she said, Nina, she wrote. And I'll never forget, she wrote,

846
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: I've been a survivor longer than not. This is a

847
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: part of my story. I should be the one to

848
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: control when I tell her. And they were the exact

849
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,439
Speaker 2: themes that I talked about. And they'll let her speak,

850
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 2: let us speak campaigns, I thought, shit, Yeah. So, as

851
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,879
Speaker 2: it turned out, for a different reason, which is a

852
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 2: technical legal reason, we did have to get a court

853
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 2: order to name them, and I thought, all right, if

854
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 2: we get a court order and we go through those

855
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: steps and they still want to be named, because that

856
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 2: builds in a calling off period, we'll do the paign.

857
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: And six months later, when we got the court order,

858
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: they still wanted to do the campaign. And by that

859
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: stage they'd also the sisters had also told people in

860
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 2: their local communities about what they were planning to do.

861
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: They'd had school assemblies, they'd done they'd raised money for

862
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 2: Brave Hearts with a bike ride, they'd done a footy

863
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: awareness night, they'd had movie nights to raise money for

864
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: Brave Hearts. So in that process they had told their

865
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 2: community about their story, so they wouldn't be outing themselves,

866
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 2: and they also had the other reasons why I thought, okay,

867
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 2: all right, we can tell the story is they had

868
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 2: full support of both parents, full support of their counselors,

869
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 2: their lawyers. They also they'd also we did a lot

870
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 2: of work with both of the girls' schools to make

871
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 2: sure that there was support there. And so we went

872
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 2: ahead and I broke that story back in twenty twenty two,

873
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 2: and this was the beginning of the justice shouldn't Hurt

874
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: campaign and we campaigned with the Millthorpe family really strongly

875
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 2: for three months and in three months time the premiere

876
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 2: at the time in New South Wales agreed and committed

877
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 2: sixty four point three million dollars to expand that brilliant program.

878
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 2: So it's now available because of the MILLFORLK family, that

879
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: program is now available in every district court in New

880
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 2: South Wales, which is a was a great success. So

881
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 2: that was twenty three and then after that I thought,

882
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 2: using that as a template for the campaign, let's now

883
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 2: expand it nationally, but not just you know, court isn't

884
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: just traumatizing for children, it's traumatizing for anyone who's been

885
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 2: sexually violated. So and we know as well that most

886
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 2: people who have experienced sexual assault in childhood don't report

887
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 2: that experience until adulthood, so they're not going through the

888
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 2: court as children. And this program was really only to

889
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 2: help people who were still under the age of eighteen.

890
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 2: But we know very clearly from the evidence that when

891
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 2: you have a forty year old who is on the

892
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: stand giving evidence about what happened to them at age five,

893
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 2: you absolutely return to that psychology and the vulnerability of

894
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 2: a five year old. So for the last few years,

895
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 2: a couple of years, I've been following twenty individuals who

896
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 2: made a report of rape in Australia to the police,

897
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 2: through their experiences from war to go with the criminal

898
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 2: justice system, to find out so in all different states

899
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 2: and territories, to find out through their eyes, what is

900
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 2: that pathway, what is it that their experience in going

901
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 2: through And unsurprisingly, every single one of them has said that,

902
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,760
Speaker 2: including all of those who did receive a guilty verdict,

903
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 2: they have all said that they left the system more

904
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 2: traumatized than when they first entered it, but also that

905
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be that way, and that with

906
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 2: some of the things that were in the original Child

907
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 2: Sexual Offense Evidence program and which have been trialed around

908
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:57,879
Speaker 2: the world and evaluated, there can be things that can

909
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 2: be done to make that pathway less traumatic. So the

910
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: new campaign, which builds on the original justice shouldn't hurt.

911
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 2: But we've rebooted it for twenty twenty four and we've

912
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: now made it a national campaign, so it's been hosted

913
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 2: on news dot com dot Au and we're calling for

914
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,400
Speaker 2: all governments to invest in these reforms to the criminal

915
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 2: justice system to make that pathway more streamline, less stressful,

916
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:20,720
Speaker 2: fewer delays, et cetera.

917
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,240
Speaker 1: Okay, and some of the reforms breaking down the reforms

918
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: that you're looking at.

919
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, right from the very first step, which is

920
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 2: that for some people anyway, is the forensic step. We

921
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 2: want there to be so at the moment, sometimes when

922
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 2: people are particularly in rural and regional areas, when they're

923
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 2: presenting to hospitals, they're sometimes having to wait over forty

924
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 2: eight hours before they can have a rape kit done,

925
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 2: and in that time they're told not to wash or shower,

926
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:46,959
Speaker 2: So you can imagine how.

927
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,320
Speaker 1: It's degrading, just the continued trauma.

928
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 2: It's horrendous. And you know, I remember not that long ago,

929
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:56,800
Speaker 2: I got a call from someone who had been sexually

930
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 2: assaulted in Gosford. Gosford is an hour from Sydney, you know,

931
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 2: and they this person had to wait over a day

932
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 2: for someone for rape kit and someone who could perform

933
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: the rape kits. So from the first step, we would

934
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 2: and you know, there are other countries, like I believe

935
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 2: it's Sweden, where any GP can perform a rape kit.

936
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 2: You know, Australia's really far behind with this. So from

937
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: the first from that first interaction with the criminal justice system.

938
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 2: We'd like there to be better resourcing and better training

939
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: through to what's happening in court rooms. There needs to

940
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,319
Speaker 2: be a lot of work and there are some really

941
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,920
Speaker 2: great initiatives that are out there now. Like one of

942
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 2: them that I love is the Court Support Dog program, which.

943
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: I saw that in the documentation that you sent, So

944
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: talk us through that, because when I'm looking at that,

945
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 1: I'm going support dogs. Yeah, okay, so that's some of

946
00:55:46,680 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 1: the dogs. I know it wouldn't be great support, but

947
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 1: these are especially trained dogs. Yeah.

948
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: So the court support dogs, they actually receive more training

949
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 2: than guide dogs. They trained from when they're very very

950
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 2: young puppies to remain calm under all circumstances. And the

951
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 2: programs come out of America. They've had had it in

952
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 2: America and Canada since about two thousand and four. And

953
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 2: the idea is that right from at least in America,

954
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: right from the first interview with the police, the dog

955
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,359
Speaker 2: is there to help calm and ground the survivor. And

956
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 2: what they've found is that when people are in the

957
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 2: presence of a dog, their heart rate slows down, blood

958
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 2: pressure drops, stress levels drop, and that allows you if

959
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 2: you think about the brain when it's in its trauma

960
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 2: fight flight mode, when your brain calms down, you can

961
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 2: actually access your memory, You have better recollection, you can

962
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 2: access your memory better, and your speech functions, et cetera,

963
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 2: those parts of your brain. So people are able to

964
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 2: give clearer evidence, and that's leading to more convictions in America.

965
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 2: With the program, they've found that there are children like

966
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 2: if you look at what makes a good sexual assault counselor,

967
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 2: they're people who are good listeners, who are non judgmental,

968
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 2: and who have unlimited positive regard for the client. You

969
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 2: look at a.

970
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: Dog, bring out rover.

971
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: They're good listeners, they're completely non judgmental, and they have

972
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 2: that unconditional love which for a person who's feeling traumatized.

973
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 2: And I remember, you know I talked before about my

974
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 2: own case and how on the night of my assault,

975
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 2: I didn't want my family member in the room with

976
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,560
Speaker 2: me giving giving evidence because I would self censor. But

977
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 2: I grew up with a Golden Retriever and had I

978
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 2: had a dog there, you know, I didn't want the

979
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 2: police to touch me, but I would have really appreciated that.

980
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: Warmth of Yeah, I understand, I understand it.

981
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: So in Australia we now have the Court Support dog

982
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 2: program in Victoria, but they've only got two dogs and

983
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,439
Speaker 2: what they're finding is that, well, they found a few things,

984
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 2: one of which is fascinating, which is that when a

985
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: survivor is supported by the dog in court, they take

986
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 2: fuel breaks because they can get through more more material

987
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 2: before there too high emotionally. And so because they're taking

988
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 2: fuel breaks, they're getting through cases quicker, which is saving

989
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 2: the courts a lot of money because you know, every

990
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 2: time a survivor takes a break, the charge everybody has

991
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: to stop.

992
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

993
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 2: So they're also finding that survivors are overall, they're less

994
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: traumatized because if they've been supported by the dog because

995
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 2: of that calm, unconditional support that they give. So one

996
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 2: of the goals of the campaign is to ensure that

997
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 2: in Victoria there is an expansion of that program because

998
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 2: it's I mean, like if you look at the American

999
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 2: case study as well, they've found over there that there's

1000
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 2: benefits for everybody. The police have less burnout, there's less

1001
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 2: turnover if there's a police, if there's a dog running around.

1002
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: Look I'm not laughing because I was in a maximum

1003
00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 1: security prison. Then they're training dogs as support dogs, and

1004
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: the way the dogs behaves and just to calm prisoners. Now,

1005
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:06,479
Speaker 1: the way that the dog had seense if someone's getting

1006
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: agitated then would come up and just sit down beside

1007
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: their feet.

1008
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 2: Then and sometimes I was speaking a couple of years

1009
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 2: back when we were first introducing the program out here

1010
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 2: in Australia. I'd gone over to the US to the

1011
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 2: International Court Support Dog Conference and we'd come back out

1012
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 2: here and I was presenting to a room full of

1013
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 2: prosecutors and I was shit scared because it's a room

1014
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 2: for prosecutors. And I was standing there with a court

1015
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 2: support dog next to me, and I was telling my

1016
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 2: story and explaining how I believe the court support dog

1017
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 2: would have made a difference to me on the night

1018
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:47,080
Speaker 2: of the police interview. And the dog Coop started licking

1019
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 2: my hand, and the handler explained and said, so the

1020
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 2: dog is trained to pick up on stress pheromones, and

1021
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: Nina's giving off stress pheromones, which is why the dog

1022
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,400
Speaker 2: has started licking her hand, and that's to kind of

1023
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 2: ground me and bring me back into my body and

1024
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 2: to settle me. And it did. That's exactly the effect

1025
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 2: that it had. And I've raised one of the women

1026
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 2: whose case I've been following for the last few years.

1027
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 2: She's experienced extreme domestic violence and extreme trauma in her life.

1028
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 2: And I've had countless conversations with this woman and when

1029
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:25,480
Speaker 2: I went to interview her for the campaign, and I thought,

1030
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 2: this is going to be really hard on her because

1031
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 2: it's you know, having a camera in your face is stressful,

1032
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: and talking about very personal experience of violence is stressful.

1033
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 2: So for the interview, we brought in the dog, and

1034
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: she had the dog throughout the interview and she has

1035
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 2: never been I have never heard her so articulate as

1036
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 2: she was, Like in all the phone calls I've had

1037
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 2: with her, she's never been as articulate as she was

1038
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 2: in interview. When supported by the dogs, I've seen it

1039
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 2: work first time. So that's I mean, that's just one

1040
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 2: of the reforms. But the other reforms are things like

1041
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 2: specialist judges making sure that there are fewer delays in courts,

1042
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 2: having witness intermediaries so there are people who help particularly

1043
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 2: children or people with complex communication needs, independent lawyers for survivors.

1044
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: There's a lot of things, and I think that was

1045
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 1: under the heading I've got human rights survivors, victims go

1046
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 1: and the way what I was reading about it and

1047
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 1: it articulated it very clearly in that people were victims

1048
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 1: of crime attend court thinking they've got someone representing them. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1049
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,919
Speaker 1: and yeah it's a prosecutor. The prosecutors not looking after

1050
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: their interests. The prosecutions prosecuting their case. You'll get some

1051
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: good prosecutors aware of protecting the victim. Yeah. I don't

1052
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: want to give more money to the legal fraternity, but

1053
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 1: there should be I think at some point in time,

1054
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: some legal representation that victims can get because the prosecutor

1055
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: is not representing the victims and that's such a foreign

1056
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:05,680
Speaker 1: thing for them. They don't understand.

1057
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 2: This is one of the biggest misconceptions. So many people

1058
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 2: think that when you report a sexual assault, Okay, we

1059
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 2: all understand that the defendant is represented by the defense.

1060
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 2: The prosecution does not represent the rights of the victim.

1061
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 2: The prosecution represents the rights of the state or the communities.

1062
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:29,360
Speaker 2: As the victim survivor, you are classified as a witness

1063
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 2: and you are there as evidence. You're not actually even

1064
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,240
Speaker 2: a party to proceeding, and that has implications. It been

1065
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 2: things like you know, I've worked with a lot of

1066
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 2: survivors who have real difficulty getting things like updates or

1067
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 2: access to the transcript, which you don't automatically get because

1068
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: you are not a party to proceedings. So in other

1069
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 2: countries around the world, like there's there's a bunch of India, Japan, Canada, Ireland, Germany,

1070
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 2: they actually allow a victim to have their own lawyer

1071
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 2: present in court, which I mean, it's fascinating. I remember

1072
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 2: speaking to one victim survivor who said to me, so

1073
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 2: I went to court and I knew that he would

1074
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 2: have the defend the defense. And I said to them,

1075
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 2: you know, so the prosecution who objects if I'm being

1076
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 2: harassed or whatever. Well, the prosecution can object, but they're

1077
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:26,840
Speaker 2: not legally obligated to because I don't actually represent you

1078
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 2: as their client. And she said, okay, so who does

1079
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 2: speak up for me? Who does stand up for me

1080
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:34,720
Speaker 2: if something happens?

1081
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: Who objects?

1082
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:39,480
Speaker 2: And the answer was no one, No one is. Legally

1083
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 2: the prosecution might, but they're not obligated to. And that's

1084
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 2: actually where the name of the campaign, the second part,

1085
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 2: the justice shouldn't hurt take the stand, came from because

1086
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: she said, who stands for me, And I thought, that's

1087
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 2: a bloody good question. And you know, we know that

1088
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 2: when sexual assault survivors. If you ask any sexual assault

1089
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 2: survivor who has been to call, why did you go

1090
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 2: through it? Overwhelmingly it's not actually for them. They're doing

1091
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 2: it to protect the community. Like they'll say, I'm doing

1092
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 2: it to protect to protect the next girl, I'm doing

1093
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 2: it to keep the next person safe. So they are

1094
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,880
Speaker 2: taking the stand to protect us as the community. And

1095
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 2: so the belief of the campaign is to say, as

1096
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 2: a community, we should take a stand to protect these

1097
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 2: people because there's no fun going to court for these survivors.

1098
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 2: There's no you know, one of the myths I guess

1099
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,680
Speaker 2: that I the you know, there are rate myths in

1100
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 2: terms of the rate myths that foster belief about why

1101
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 2: rape doesn't doesn't happen, But there's also rape myths in

1102
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 2: terms of media, and one of the most common ones

1103
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 2: is that people tell their story in the media for fame, money,

1104
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:51,640
Speaker 2: or attention. And I can tell you none of that

1105
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 2: is true. That there's no there's no you know, magical

1106
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 2: leprechorn that arives with a big bunch of gold coins.

1107
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 2: When you tell your story. If anything, it costs survivors

1108
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 2: money to.

1109
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,320
Speaker 1: Put yourself out there. You become public property then and

1110
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 1: you're not making any money from it in your life

1111
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 1: got a lot more.

1112
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 2: Difficult again, if you ask survival like every time I

1113
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,560
Speaker 2: interview a survivor, the two questions that I start with,

1114
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 2: what are their objectives in telling their story? And what

1115
01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 2: are their fears and concerns? And that first question of

1116
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 2: what are your objectives? Very individual some people it might be.

1117
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 2: You know, I've heard a lot of different things from

1118
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 2: I want to tell my story to raise awareness about

1119
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 2: the need for consent education, through to I want to

1120
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 2: raise awareness to about some reform in the criminal justice system, etc.

1121
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 2: What all of those answers have in common underpinning them

1122
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 2: is I want to tell my story so that it

1123
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 2: has some sort of impact and some sort of change,

1124
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 2: which means that somebody else doesn't have to walk through

1125
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 2: my nightmare again, that somebody else has a different out

1126
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 2: come to me. That's why it's driven by altruism. That's

1127
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 2: overwhelmingly I find that people who tell their story or

1128
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 2: people who go to court, they're doing it for an

1129
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 2: altruistic reason, which is to help other people and when

1130
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 2: I asked that second question of what are you afraid

1131
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 2: of again or what are the fears again? The answer

1132
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 2: is us are somewhat individual. But the one through line

1133
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 2: is I'm afraid some version of I'm afraid I'm going

1134
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 2: to be blamed or judged. And as a journalist, I

1135
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 2: can't lie and say that's not going to happen, because

1136
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 2: statistically I know it is going to happen.

1137
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 1: People make comments, people.

1138
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the in terms of like trauma inform practice.

1139
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 2: As a journalist, the media is not a safe space.

1140
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 2: It is not you know, I know that by doing

1141
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:55,400
Speaker 2: this interview, I'll probably get some you know, a handful

1142
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 2: of risks of emails that are nice, and I'll probably

1143
01:06:58,160 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 2: get a couple of wacko ones.

1144
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,479
Speaker 1: You'll get attacked on something, yeah, you've said.

1145
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 2: And but the reality is is that survivors still make

1146
01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 2: the choice to go to court, or they still make

1147
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 2: the choice to do the media because they make a

1148
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 2: calculation that the benefit or the possible good that can

1149
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 2: come from that offsets the risk and the personal risk.

1150
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 2: And it's always a personal risk. It's always a personal

1151
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 2: price that you're paying. So for me, when I you know,

1152
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 2: as I said, I didn't get my own day in court,

1153
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 2: but I have so much admiration for those who do

1154
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 2: go through that through that system because you know, if

1155
01:07:44,360 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 2: you win the case, you don't get you know, you

1156
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 2: don't get a civil payout, you don't.

1157
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 1: Gain another misconception life is going to be better for

1158
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 1: you when if you've got got a victory in court.

1159
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:01,479
Speaker 2: And most people who do go through court, their life

1160
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 2: is on hold for two to three years when they

1161
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 2: do it. It impacts their relationships, their careers, like everything, but

1162
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 2: they're doing it to keep the community safe. So I

1163
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 2: think as a community, the least we can do is

1164
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,040
Speaker 2: ensure that if someone is brave enough to go through

1165
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 2: that pipeline, that we make that pipeline as safe and

1166
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 2: easy and trauma informed as possible by doing things like

1167
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 2: not making sure that the cases don't drag out for

1168
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 2: three years, that they're done as quickly and it's some

1169
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:27,759
Speaker 2: one as possible.

1170
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 1: The other thing with sexual assaults as well, there is

1171
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 1: a serial nature to it. Like sex offenders in my

1172
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,760
Speaker 1: experience throughout my career, they don't stop. If they get

1173
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,080
Speaker 1: away with it, there's a likelihood that they might reoffend,

1174
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 1: So there's a benefit in there in speaking up, going

1175
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,759
Speaker 1: to court and making people account for their actions.

1176
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:55,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean like like absolutely right, Like statistically

1177
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:59,640
Speaker 2: we know that. And I remember going back to that

1178
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 2: question of why did I go public? And part of

1179
01:09:02,400 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 2: it was about trying to generate leads and solve the

1180
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 2: case and get an arrest and keep and within that

1181
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,880
Speaker 2: keeping the community safe. Part of it was also for me,

1182
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 2: about me sending him a message of you didn't beat me,

1183
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,760
Speaker 2: you didn't win. I'm not afraid of you anymore. Like

1184
01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm honest. I was shitting myself and having

1185
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 2: panic attacks. But on another level, I was saying, this

1186
01:09:28,360 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 2: does not define me, and I'm not going to live

1187
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 2: the rest of my life in fear of what's happened.

1188
01:09:35,479 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 1: And I get so much inspiration by people that have

1189
01:09:40,320 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 1: been victims of crime and then stand up and say

1190
01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 1: this is not going to define me, and it's so

1191
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,759
Speaker 1: important and it's quite inspirational. I find that when people

1192
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: adopt that approach.

1193
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 2: But I think that's I mean, that's the reality for

1194
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 2: me is, you know, and I'm conscious that there will

1195
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:07,719
Speaker 2: be survivors listening. The reality for me is that someone

1196
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:11,880
Speaker 2: else's choices do not define you. Those choices are a

1197
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 2: reflection on them. They defined the person who's made those choices,

1198
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:18,759
Speaker 2: or they reflect on the person who's made those choices.

1199
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 2: My choices are what define me. My choice two you know,

1200
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 2: everything from my choice of what I eat for breakfast

1201
01:10:28,200 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 2: in the morning, how I parent my child, how I

1202
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:34,760
Speaker 2: conduct my into personal relationship with my partner husband, through

1203
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 2: to how do I use my experience of what's happened

1204
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 2: to me without my you know, which I didn't have

1205
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 2: agency over. But how do I use it now to

1206
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:48,520
Speaker 2: you know, as a platform for betterment? I guess Okay.

1207
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 1: If people want to find out mora or support your campaign,

1208
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 1: where can they Where can they find you?

1209
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely so the justice shouldn't hurt. Take the Stand

1210
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 2: campaign is being hosted on news dot com dot you.

1211
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 2: You can also follow me on x formerly known as Twitter.

1212
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 1: I'm just it's a strange calling it expert.

1213
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:12,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just at Nina Fanel. There's also a petition

1214
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:14,880
Speaker 2: which it'll be great if people can jump on and

1215
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 2: sign the take the Stand petition. Again, what we're pushing

1216
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 2: for are really like other countries have been doing this

1217
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 2: stuff for years. Australia is a bit behind and there's

1218
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:27,679
Speaker 2: no need for us to be so jump on sign

1219
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 2: the petition, give us a follow Thanks.

1220
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:34,800
Speaker 1: Well, I'd greatly encourage people to do because I found

1221
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,040
Speaker 1: it fascinating talking to you. I'm just packing up my

1222
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 1: notes here because there've been a total waste of time.

1223
01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:42,759
Speaker 1: We might have to get you back on the podcast

1224
01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 1: so I can use the notes I've prepared to have

1225
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 1: a chat. But really, look, thank you for the work

1226
01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 1: that you're doing. Honestly, the work that you're doing is

1227
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 1: so important, and the way that you're getting your message

1228
01:11:54,080 --> 01:11:57,600
Speaker 1: across is where people can understand that it's useful and

1229
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 1: people can relate to it. So congratulates on what you're doing.

1230
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:04,559
Speaker 1: All the best for the future, and I'm sure you're

1231
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 1: going to keep making the difference out there, and you've

1232
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:08,960
Speaker 1: made a huge difference in a lot of people's lives.

1233
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 2: So thank you.

1234
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:17,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for your efforts. Now, thanks cheers. Well, just in

1235
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 1: that conversation I have with Nina, she's taught me so

1236
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 1: much about how we should view sexual assault in the society,

1237
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 1: and about changing cultures and the way that we look

1238
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: at things, how victims of sexual assaults should be treated

1239
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 1: through the court system, and a whole range of things.

1240
01:12:32,720 --> 01:12:35,720
Speaker 1: It was really impressive conversation and I learned a lot

1241
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:36,160
Speaker 1: from it.