WEBVTT - Kathy Lette on the AI book scandal

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<v Speaker 1>Kathy let wonderful to have you on the show. What

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<v Speaker 1>did you think when you saw that this book, Shy

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<v Speaker 1>Girl had been pulled from shelves in the UK and

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<v Speaker 1>the US.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's absolutely thrilled, because you know, we ghost writers

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<v Speaker 2>are bad enough, you know, all the celebrities who put

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<v Speaker 2>a novel out pretending that they've written it when they've

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<v Speaker 2>been created and crafted by real writers. But a machine

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<v Speaker 2>written novel is a whole other level of fraud to me.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I was really thrilled.

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<v Speaker 1>Readers were the first to raise the alarm.

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<v Speaker 3>It's so empty. It's flat in every way, themes, characters,

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<v Speaker 3>plot rating. And that is because, in my opinion, large

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<v Speaker 3>chunks of this book were written with assistance from a

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<v Speaker 3>generative AI, and generative AI does not think, or feel

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<v Speaker 3>or have opinions.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, horror novel Shy Girl has become the first book

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<v Speaker 1>to be canceled over suspicions IO was used in large

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<v Speaker 1>portions of the writing. According to The New York Times

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<v Speaker 1>earlier this year, results from an AI detection program indicated

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<v Speaker 1>that the book always get this seventy eight percent AI

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<v Speaker 1>generated the publisher. So what are the implications for writers

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<v Speaker 1>for readers and for the publishing industry as AI seeps

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<v Speaker 1>into new and frightening corners of our creative industries. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM today. I Beloved.

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<v Speaker 1>I was the author. Kathy led on how AI slot

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<v Speaker 1>is threatening the future of young writers and how to

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<v Speaker 1>protect our art from the onslaught of bots. It's Friday,

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<v Speaker 1>April three. Kathy, it took readers making AI accusations about

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<v Speaker 1>Shy Girl before the publisher's cottoned on. This clip from

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<v Speaker 1>YouTube of Frankie Shelf wracked up over a million views

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<v Speaker 1>earlier this year.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that it's a feeling. It is an unshakable feeling

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<v Speaker 3>that a person would not rate like that. And again

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<v Speaker 3>I haven't brought.

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<v Speaker 1>Up if you reckon you would be able to spot

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<v Speaker 1>an AI written book yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I would. Yeah. I mean it's a bit

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<v Speaker 2>like when you taste margarine and you think that's not butter,

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<v Speaker 2>or you know, when you taste it in that awful

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<v Speaker 2>vegan kind of carb free carib chocolate, you think that's

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<v Speaker 2>not chocolate. Well, they're non alcoholic wine. That's not a

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<v Speaker 2>good pino. I mean, I think I could taste the authenticity,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, more gullible readers may not. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>we've got to call these people out. I think though,

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<v Speaker 2>there is a great novel to be written about an

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<v Speaker 2>also who writes a book with AI thinking they're going

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<v Speaker 2>to get away with it and they get caught. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if you read Yellow Face, which was about

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<v Speaker 2>an author.

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<v Speaker 1>No, but I do actually have any of my collection

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm going to read it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a good premise of an author stealing the

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<v Speaker 2>work of her dead friend. So this could become like

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<v Speaker 2>a really in joke if the author who's been caught

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<v Speaker 2>out in this scam now writes a novel about what

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<v Speaker 2>that was like.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually, that's a good way of thinking about AIS our

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<v Speaker 1>dead friends exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, should point out that the author, Mea. Ballard, has

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<v Speaker 1>denied using AI to write the book, but says an

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<v Speaker 1>acquaintance she hired to edit the novel did hughes AI. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>she says her name is being ruled. Should there be

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<v Speaker 1>more checks and balances from publishers and from authors to

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<v Speaker 1>ensure something like this doesn't happen?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, first of all, I don't quite believe

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<v Speaker 2>her excuse, because if you hire someone to edit your work,

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<v Speaker 2>they're usually trimming it. No author whatever allows someone us

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<v Speaker 2>to write a real also wouldn't allow someone us to

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<v Speaker 2>write their work for them. I mean, I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>impossible also not to have all work and no plagiarism.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we do borrow things. I mean, Bridget jones

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<v Speaker 2>diary was the whole plot was borrowed from Bride and Prejudice.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Steve bry wrote a really great update of

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<v Speaker 2>the Count of Monte Cristo. I mean, and if I

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<v Speaker 2>overhear a conversation at dinner, you know, will I will

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<v Speaker 2>use it and write it up in my book. So

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<v Speaker 2>we do borrow. But to let AI write your whole

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<v Speaker 2>novel and not to admit it is a borrowing too far.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's also at the point now where a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of software programs that you use, whether it's Microsoft Word

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<v Speaker 1>or Google Docs, have AI assistance that can prompt you

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<v Speaker 1>to sort of condense like a three word passage if

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<v Speaker 1>you want to. Is it getting almost impossible for authors

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<v Speaker 1>to not have at least a fingerprint of AI in

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<v Speaker 1>their work.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think I would say to most two authors,

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<v Speaker 2>don't ever put your work into AI, because then you

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<v Speaker 2>are feeding the machine. You're adding to the engine, So

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<v Speaker 2>you have to absolutely resist the temptation to use AI

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<v Speaker 2>in that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the US and UK have both brought in a

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<v Speaker 1>kind of certification process. We can verify that your book

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<v Speaker 1>is written by human and get a logo on the cover,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of like the Australian made tick. How far does

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<v Speaker 1>that go to ensuring authenticity?

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<v Speaker 2>I think that is going to help a lot. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>we put we've said the food that we're eating. They

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<v Speaker 2>always have to read it exactly how many calories and

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<v Speaker 2>how much sugar and that kind of thing. I think

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<v Speaker 2>we should know what we're consuming intellectually, you know, if

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<v Speaker 2>it's nourishing or not. So yeah, I think we should

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<v Speaker 2>pay alsos the same respect as we do food products.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, what is there to say about AI, especially

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<v Speaker 2>when it can say everything for us? But then again

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<v Speaker 2>can it really You know, what AI says is not

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<v Speaker 2>original nor unique, and that's what writers are for. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>AI can copycat, but it can't create, which is why

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<v Speaker 2>AI firms have to be legally bound to tell copyright

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<v Speaker 2>owners which of our individual works they've gobbled up to

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<v Speaker 2>feed their ravenous data machine. I mean, copyright is a

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<v Speaker 2>writer lifeblood, as you know, which is why artificial intelligence

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<v Speaker 2>companies must not be allowed to use copyright protected work

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<v Speaker 2>without permission. I mean, it's stealing for goodness sake. I

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<v Speaker 2>know we're comvic stock, but you know, please don't steal

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<v Speaker 2>our ideas. That's all we've.

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<v Speaker 1>Got coming up is the Australian government moving fast enough

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<v Speaker 1>on AI, Kathie. The reason books like this one are

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<v Speaker 1>able to slip through is because, on paper, AI is

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<v Speaker 1>getting better at sort of deceiving people with its writing.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's because companies like you said, like Anthropic and OpenAI,

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<v Speaker 1>have ignored copyright law and news books written by authors

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<v Speaker 1>like you and me too a lesser extent to train

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<v Speaker 1>their programs. How damaging is that for the industry and

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<v Speaker 1>for the next generation of writers.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I think it's absolutely vital the governments protect Australian's

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<v Speaker 2>creativity from extinction by enshrining ownership of our work. Otherwise

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<v Speaker 2>all our wondrous ossie artists will go the way of

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<v Speaker 2>the Tasmanian tiger and the desert bandicoot and the capricorn

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<v Speaker 2>rabbit rat and all those other rare and exotic species

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<v Speaker 2>that have been said ADI lost forever. Don't write off

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<v Speaker 2>our writers, you know, protect us, because you know society

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<v Speaker 2>would certain be so much sadder without our wit and

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<v Speaker 2>wisdom and our pith, that our perspicacity.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't you think whatever that last word meant.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, perspecsidy means absolutely, very very sharp perception, which you

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<v Speaker 2>have obviously love it.

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<v Speaker 1>The Australian government is looking at overhauling copyright laws to

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<v Speaker 1>force AI giants to disclose what content they're using to

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<v Speaker 1>train their bots and so that it's easier for creatives

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<v Speaker 1>to go after these companies. For conversation, it's also ruled

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<v Speaker 1>out giving our companies free copyright exemption after Ossiatis spoke

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<v Speaker 1>out at a Senate Estimates hearing last year.

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<v Speaker 4>What we're talking about here is really quite simple. Some

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<v Speaker 4>of the largest companies in the world are asking for

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<v Speaker 4>handouts from the Australian government. They want access to Australian

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<v Speaker 4>culture and creativity for free.

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<v Speaker 1>We can have exciting AI investment and a booming tech

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<v Speaker 1>sector without pillaging our culture and selling out our artists.

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<v Speaker 1>We can't have. I don't think at the moment, you

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<v Speaker 1>know AI understands what a lounge room in Shepherd and

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<v Speaker 1>Victoria smells like, are these good steps? And do you

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<v Speaker 1>think the government is moving fast enough to protect writers?

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<v Speaker 2>No, they need to move much, much faster, because so

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<v Speaker 2>is AI. I mean, I'm very good friends with Stephen Frye,

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<v Speaker 2>who's an AI expert, and we discussed this a lot,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and I often send him lists of things

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<v Speaker 2>AI can't do, you know, like limeerates, you know, that

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<v Speaker 2>lovely feeling when you fall in love for the first time,

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<v Speaker 2>that beautiful feeling. Limereates orgasms. Apparently it can't recreate orgasms

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<v Speaker 2>when it's reading audiobooks and stuff. It can't do umpit farts.

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<v Speaker 2>So I send him these lists of things that AI

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<v Speaker 2>can't do, and he just always says to me, not yet.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, it's it's moving so quickly, learning so fast,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, Stephen thinks so overwhelming as well. He

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<v Speaker 2>wants to get me a bracelet. We go both wear

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<v Speaker 2>a bracelet that just says TGIO, thank God, I'm old.

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<v Speaker 2>We won't have to deal with the fallout of AI

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<v Speaker 2>for all that long. But for young writers, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a really it's a clear and present danger. He

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<v Speaker 2>also says, not regulating AI is like not regulating nuclear power.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it has the power to be obviously, it

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<v Speaker 2>has the potential to work for good, but it also

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<v Speaker 2>could bring so much destruction.

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<v Speaker 1>What would real protection look like to you, Kathy.

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<v Speaker 2>Are not allowing AI to train on our work end

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<v Speaker 2>of you know, we need a creative condom or something

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<v Speaker 2>to protect us from their intrusion. So yeah, they just

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<v Speaker 2>shouldn't be allowed to train our work and protect our copyright.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally, how big a danger do you think AI

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<v Speaker 1>is for writers? Does it put your job at risk?

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<v Speaker 1>Or are there always going to be things humans can do,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in the creating space and in the writing space

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<v Speaker 1>that AI cannot well, As we.

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<v Speaker 2>Said earlier, you know, it can't have an original or

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<v Speaker 2>unique idea. It's just like a magpie pick, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it just takes from everybody else. But it is a danger.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it's a shame because you know, AI could actually,

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<v Speaker 2>if it's regulated, it could be so helpful for all

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<v Speaker 2>of us. But you know, it's a very powerful machine,

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<v Speaker 2>but we need to build it ethically and fairly and

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<v Speaker 2>protect our writers at the same time. I mean, things

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<v Speaker 2>are going so fast and getting so out of control

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<v Speaker 2>now I kind of want to go back to the

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<v Speaker 2>days of quill and ink and carrier pigeons and smoke signals.

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<v Speaker 2>There are things that we can trust and control.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm actually seriously looking at getting myself to depend just

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<v Speaker 1>to be part of the resistance.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I know, part of the resistance, that's right. I've

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<v Speaker 2>gone back to writing letters to people long hand and

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<v Speaker 2>actually posting them because you know, then it's just between

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<v Speaker 2>me and the person receiving it. I don't worry of

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<v Speaker 2>anything being stolen or copied or whatever. So yeah, we're

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<v Speaker 2>definitely heading into very uncharted and treacherous waters. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>all tight.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Kathy, thanks so much for your timing. Can expect

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<v Speaker 1>my thank you note in the mail any day now.

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<v Speaker 2>That's love you, and I'll send you back a smoke

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<v Speaker 2>signal in return.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks.

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<v Speaker 2>Bye.

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<v Speaker 1>Seven Ams and Early Show from Solstice Media. It's made

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<v Speaker 1>by Adigus Bastow, Ariel Richards, Chris dan Gate, Crystal Color,

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<v Speaker 1>more fresh episodes, including tomorrow's look at the budget. Dele

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<v Speaker 1>know that the Labor government is facing voters want relief,

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<v Speaker 1>the Reserve Bank wants restraint, and the Treasurer is stuck

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle. See you there