WEBVTT - #1917 How To Start A Cult - David Gillespie 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.880 Tiffany and Cook, David, Brian, Kevin, Patrick Gillespie. Welcome back 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.039 to the show. We'll start with the lady. Hi, TIV 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:09.760 Good evening. 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:12.400 I went to say good morning. I always say good morning. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.720 Yeah, how are you? Oh? I kind of know because 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:18.000 we did a podcast a few hours ago, but you know, 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.480 maybe maybe you've had some good or bad news since then. 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:21.760 Are you all right? No, I'm good. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.239 I went for a little short three k run. Haven't 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:28.320 done anything cardio for two weeks and now I'm back 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.400 in the cold office, freezing with the electric blanket on 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:33.320 my knee like a nana. 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.159 Well, you're in the throes of and I'm not throwing 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:38.479 you under the bus here because you've spoken about it 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.919 quite a bit because it was in context. But you're 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.440 in the throes of perry menopause. 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:45.280 Yeah. 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:47.640 Yeah, is that why you're not running? 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:48.280 Yeah? 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:53.080 Yeah, I've had no energy yep, hrvs at an all 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.040 time low, not sleeping, good, whole lots of stuff, Very tired. 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:00.160 But you know, a run, just a short one, makes 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:02.760 you feel so good and give you that little dopamine 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:07.320 hit and you know, so it's finding that balance of 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.000 doing the thing that gives you energy but not doing 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.440 it too hard or too much so it takes all 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:13.200 of the energy. 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:16.319 When was the last time Do you reckon that gillespo 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:18.480 went for a run? Do you reckon he's ever gone. 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:18.800 For a run? 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:21.520 I'd be interested tonight. 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:24.320 I actually think I did go for a run once. 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:26.840 Who you. 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:28.520 Are? 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.240 I went to a school that had a compulsory once 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:36.360 a year across country and run might be an exaggeration. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:40.800 I certainly completed the course, but I don't think I 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.920 ever got much above a fastish walk. 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:48.400 I don't know why I think this, because I mean 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.720 I've been talking to a black box for two years, 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.760 and by that I mean David doesn't have his camera 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:56.600 on everyone so Tip and I just it's actually a rectangle. 0:01:56.920 --> 0:01:59.000 So you may not even be a human. You could 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.440 be humanoid, especial with recent developments. 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.200 Yeah, but I'm actually an AI. Let me. I'll do 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:05.920 We'll come back to that. I'll tell you a fairy, 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.400 funny story about that. But I keep going go story. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.840 I mean this sounds I don't mean it like it's 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.160 going to sound. But I don't picked you as particularly athletic. 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.200 I'm not not in the slightest No, No, I had 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:24.040 a brief period of being pretty close to athletic in 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:25.959 my late teens early twenties. 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.680 I'm just athletic adjacent. 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:34.080 Athletic at Jason where I used to hang out at 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:35.880 the gym a lot and do all that sort of stuff, 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.280 and managed to snag my wife during that period. So 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.040 poor woman then got sucked in. 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.799 Came for the biceps, stayed thirds right. 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:49.359 I was too late by then we were married. 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:55.720 She couldn't get out. That's all right, contractor wow, wow, 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:57.720 I tell us what you're going to before we Joe, 0:02:57.720 --> 0:02:58.080 I don't know. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:03.760 Ah, it's just the thing, right. So you know, James, 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:09.240 my son, he's been experimenting with AI to ring, you 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:11.320 know how that he rings all the doctors and asks 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:16.760 them how much they cost, and he pays real people 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:18.680 to do that, and so he's been experimenting with getting 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.880 AI to it and he's had some success with it, 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:25.560 fooling most people. But he was telling me a story 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:28.200 the other day about one where it rang a receptionist 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:34.320 and the receptionist said, what's your name? And the AI responded, 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:41.800 that's not important right now, and and the receptionist it 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.040 was quite cleuely as a young bloke said you're an AI, 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:49.200 aren't you? And it said, it said, let's not talk 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.720 about me, Let's talk about the price of the doctors 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.360 or something like that. And the guy said, oh, this 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.880 is so cool. You're an AI, aren't you? 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:05.920 That's what I mean? What is the the legality around that? 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.119 Is it okay? Like, I mean, I'm sure it must 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:11.600 be okay. Otherwise, one, he wouldn't be doing it until 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.560 you wouldn't be telling this story. But like when you 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.000 use AI to ring someone to get information or a business, 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.800 do you need clearly you don't need to announce that 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:21.440 this is. 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:25.320 His is trained to from now on since that call 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.839 to respond, if someone says, are you an AI, it'll say, yes, 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.800 I am an AI, and I'm rather doing you know 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:32.400 what it's doing. 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:37.320 But yeah, wow, and so does he have any kind 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:41.520 of idea? See this is so interesting. I love this shit. Like, 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:43.240 I think that's a good use for AI. 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:47.360 I mean, I mean, right now, there's the opposite. He's 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.440 done quite a lot, which is when people call in 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:55.440 and the phone is answered by an ai. So and 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:57.320 a lot of the time you won't be able to 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:59.840 detect that you're talking to an AI, not a person. 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.960 So and but from my perspective, I think that's a 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.680 good thing. Personally, I'd rather have the phone answered immediately 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.800 by an AI that I can understand, you know, sit 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.280 on hold for an hour and a half before speaking 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.479 to a call center that I can only understand every 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:17.000 second word. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:23.360 Yeah, that's that's quite often the case. And so does 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.520 James know how what percentage of people figured out that 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:27.960 they weren't talking about it? 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.760 He's not using it at the moment, He's right, this 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:33.520 is this is just some test runs he did, and 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.279 just I thought that was an interesting thing. Is somebody 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.800 who figured it out and then was just thrilled that 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:42.279 they were talking to an R That is funny. 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.440 Well, I mean a young person would Yeah, I reckon 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:48.200 if my mum answered the phone, it might be a 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.240 different story moment probably. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:51.440 Yeah. 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.600 Yeah, Well, I mean I guess that's it's all that 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.040 and more. And it seems to be like AI seems 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.920 to be I feel like we talk about a lot, 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:02.080 but it's because AI. 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:06.000 Well we probably should talk about AI a lot because 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:12.480 it is going to significantly change the way everything works. 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:17.440 I mean, you know, robots replaced industrial workers at scale 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.599 sort of forty years ago, and now to the point 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.080 where you take a thousand workers out for every robot 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:29.120 and nobody even blinks. But a similar sort of thing 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.760 is going to happen with knowledge work as well. So 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:37.599 sort of mid level AM and sorry, administration and down 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.280 is going to be chewed up by this stuff. And 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.760 that then means okay, so what's the story then? Is 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.000 everybody going to be unemployed? Or do we have to 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:51.880 come up with a different economic model? You know, do 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:53.839 we have to come up with the one that we've 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.360 talked about briefly every now and then, which is sort 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:01.039 of a universal basic income where essentially, if you're a 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.400 citizen of the country and the country produces a dividend 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:06.360 for you and pays it to you in the form 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:11.240 of a standard basic income and everyone gets it, and 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:13.040 then if you choose to earn more than good on you. 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.280 Yeah yeah, yeah, Well I wonder if that's ever going 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:19.040 to be the case. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.960 I don't what about a choice soon? The question is 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.560 how much how much ugliness is going to have to 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.080 happen before we get to that inevitable position? 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:30.840 And what I mean, I know you don't know, but 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.000 like if you just had to have a guess, what 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:38.760 do you reckon the timeline is on universal basic income 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:40.760 being a reality in Australia. 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.680 I think, unfortunately, it's probably ten years to fairly large 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:50.480 scale unemployment and probably twenty years to someone figuring out 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:51.840 that that's really the only solution. 0:07:52.800 --> 0:07:56.760 And will the main genesis of large scale unemployment unemployment 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:57.440 be AI? 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:00.920 Oh yeah, AI and the the things that we call 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.080 AI now and the things that will follow it which 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:09.000 are going to be even more human like in their abilities. 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:12.040 And your fellow lawyers running around with their legal undies 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.440 on their head because AI can now do quite a 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:17.640 lot of the work that was being charged out at 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:18.760 eight hundred bucks an hour. 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:23.680 I think it will definitely change the legal industry. AI 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.720 is really really bad at some of the things lawyers do, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:33.000 and sort of hilariously bad, but it's also really really 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.920 good at some of the things that they do, particularly 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.480 the sort of lower end of the legal profession, where 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.800 you know, in large firms, a lot of lawyers are 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:46.160 spending most of their day doing legal research to provide 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:49.880 sort of condensed versions of it as advice, as part 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.160 of an advice that a more senior lawyer will be delivering. 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:58.480 That kind of work that's perfect for AI, you know, 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:03.760 and I think increasingly that will be part of the 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.680 deal with law firms and they will have to adjust. 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.520 And I guess even junior lawyers working in conjunction with AI. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.280 Do you know what I mean? Because you know that 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.320 I mean, working like with all the right prompts and 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.240 all the right whatever, you can generate a huge amount 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:24.400 of or do a huge amount of research, get a 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:27.240 whole lot of clarity in way way way less time, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.560 or a lot more information in way less line. 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.440 I think in general that's the story with A, which 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:36.200 is it's quite powerful in the hands of somebody who 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.760 knows the area that it is working in. So if 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.360 it's maths you're doing, and you're getting AI to do 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.040 stuff in maths, as long as you know enough about 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.200 the area that it's working in to know when it's 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:52.040 bsing you, then it can be really powerful, you know. 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:55.439 But and the same with computer programming or law or 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.839 anything else. I mean, you know, podcasters are probably s 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.320 for now, but you know, we had a bit of 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.920 a peek at what that looks like too, where you 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.559 can just feed it a document and you know it'll 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.880 carry on a conversation between itself that is reasonably convincing. 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:16.760 Yeah, we did that, and you were the one who 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:19.920 opened that door for me. We did that with one 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:25.120 of my papers. I wrote a systematic literature review, which 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.760 is you know, like seventy pages, put it into AI 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:32.520 and it did a twenty six minute podcast chat between 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.600 this lady and gentlemen and they kind of they chatted, 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:39.199 debriefed and shared all the kind of you know, the 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.000 the high points or the key points I guess of 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:48.400 my research and my paper. And it was other than 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:53.320 a couple of little minor glitches or misrepresentations, it was 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.800 fucking amazing. I'm like, and it did it in like 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.760 three minutes. So in inverted Commas read my whole paper 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:07.480 and then punched out this twenty six minute conversation in 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.320 three minutes, which I listened to. I thought, oh, this 0:11:10.360 --> 0:11:13.400 will be garbage, and it was mesmerizingly good. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.679 Yeah, but think about that at scale in that if 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.240 you decided, you know what, I'm just going to create 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:25.080 a whole bunch of podcast channels. I'm going to have 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.559 one for every topic known to man. I'm going to 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:30.760 feed it articles out of the New York Times or 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.640 the Washington Post or wherever, you know, whatever source is 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:35.840 a good source for that, whatever that particular topic is, 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.200 set up the library of those things, punch go. Three 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.880 minutes later, you've got a thousand podcast channels. 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:47.080 Yeah, yeah, it just it makes you one wonder very 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.800 much where yeah, I mean, even where podcasts will be 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:55.240 in a year, because you know, you can my voice 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:57.080 is enough of my voice that we can rip my 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:01.360 voice off and make me say whatever whatever script somebody 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:02.920 wants to provide, and it's. 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.960 Oh have you tried that? There's it's actually it doesn't 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.600 take long. I think you have to read. There's like 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.400 a page of text. It's it's maybe a minute's worth 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:12.959 of reading. 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.000 Melissa has done that with my voice and produced like 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.880 a five minute thing. And other than perhaps a little 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.800 bit of nuance and timing. And you know, because I'm 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.360 I'm I'm probably a little bit loosey goosey, I'm not 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.160 too you know, what's the word? I don't know. But 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:33.520 if you. 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:35.200 Give it enough, if you give it enough of a 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:38.480 sample of the way, give it a bunch of your podcasts, 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.760 and then say I don't want to just copy the voice, 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.760 I want to copy the style as well, it'll come 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:46.360 pretty close. 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:50.720 Yeah, amazing, speaking of AI, you were telling it something 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.720 before we press the go button, which was rather ironic 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.280 about the new Toyster Story movie. 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.880 Yeah. So this has caused a bit of a fuss 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.520 because people are saying, is this really just a way 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:11.679 of covertly attacking modern parents? Which is the sneak peek 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.240 of toy Story five seems to suggest that the villain 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:18.480 of toy Story five, Now, you'll be right up on 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.160 the toy Story series, you know, which is your favorite. 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:23.640 I love Woody, I mean, I love them all. 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:28.480 You know. Well, I didn't know there was a four, 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.080 a little much lesser five, but there you go. So 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.160 toy Story five comes out next year. 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:35.720 That makes fun of me. I reckon, I've got you 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.320 covered in terms of toy story knowledge, all. 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:44.040 Right, do it wouldn't be hard. But anyway, I did 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:46.520 see this fuss because it's vaguely relevant to stuff that 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.400 I write about. And the villain in Toy Story five 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:55.640 is lily Pad, and lily Pad is an iPad. And 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.200 the idea is that the reason that's the villain is 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:03.040 that the child you know, who is the owner of 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:08.200 the toys is given lily Pad as a gift and 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.240 suddenly she's got no interest in the toys, doesn't want 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:14.720 to play with the physical toys anymore. She had just 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.040 played with lily Pad from then on. Now. I don't 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.240 know any more about it than that, because that's all 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.080 they've shown us. But it's been enough to fire everyone up. 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:28.080 I wonder what the I wonder what their motivation for 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:33.040 that storyline was, because it seems, as we said before, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:37.480 it seems ironic that people will watch the movie, some 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:38.840 people on an iPad. 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.680 I think it's probably just that this is a very 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.840 real problem now. I mean, we've talked for a little 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.200 while now about the problem with and it's just not 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:54.840 this always sounds like a kid's these days kind of thing, right, 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:59.120 But it's not. It is dramatically different. You talk to 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.760 any teacher, and I was talking to some teachers just 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.520 the other day, a group of them, and I said, 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:07.400 you know, any of you that have been teaching for 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:11.200 more than fifteen years, what's today's classroom like compared to 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:15.360 when you first started? And they said, the biggest difference 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:20.440 is the ADHD. You know that we've gone from it 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.520 being rare, maybe one kid in the school, to every 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:27.400 classroom's five to ten kids who are on medication for it. 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:32.160 And that's just really really hard to manage. But it's 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.720 if it's hard to manage in the classroom, imagine how 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:39.840 hard it is to manage at home. And this is 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:44.560 a direct consequence of giving every child in a generation 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:50.840 access to highly addictive software which is altering their brain 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:57.000 chemistry and creating ADHD from that alteration, and remembering that 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:02.120 the definition of ADHD for our purposes here, it destroys 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.440 focus so that you can no longer focus on anything 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:10.520 for more than about a second, and that what's doing 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:15.200 that is the devices. And these devices are now everywhere 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:19.040 all the time, and kids are on them all the time. Now, 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.040 the reason that this talk about this movie has caused 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.920 a fuss is because many parents feel like they're being 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:32.760 blamed for this. Yeah, you know that somehow people are 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.000 preaching at them about you know, why are you're giving 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.120 you why you're setting your kids just done? Why are 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.280 you just handing them a device for your two year 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:44.840 old and the trolley at the supermarket? And the reality 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:52.240 is that it's pervasive and the kids would be desperate 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:54.520 to get their hands on the things anyway, even if 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.960 the parents weren't making them available. To them. They beg 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:01.080 borrow and steal the things because the industry has done 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:04.040 exactly what it needed to do to make money, which 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.320 has made these things accessible everywhere. 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:15.119 Isn't it interesting? How much like with different different products, 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:23.280 I mean everything from iPads and iPhones to drugs, Like, 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.080 there's a real incentive for companies to make things that 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:31.280 are addictive. I mean, like highly incentivized to make shit 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:32.800 that people can't do without. 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:37.080 Well, it's why Coca Cola used coke coke as in 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:42.880 cocaine when they first manufactured it. I mean, you need 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.560 a competitive jump. If you're selling sugar water and the 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.480 guy next to you is selling sugar water, one of 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.600 you better come up with a way to get an advantage, 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.440 or one of you is going out of business. So 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.639 you know, make it addictive. Now, sugar is pretty addictive anyway, 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.480 but you add cocaine to it, it's really addictive. So 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:07.760 it's marketing one oh one. Make your product addictive, and 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:11.960 particularly important when your product is a piece of software 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.960 you have spent literally billions of dollars developing and that 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.960 you are giving away for free. If your product is 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.600 an addictive there goes your billions of dollars. 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.199 Yeah. Yeah, and when you think really, I mean, like 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.800 we talk about ethics and morals and values and all 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.119 of that, but really, when you talk about that stuff 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:37.720 in the context of industry and the commercial landscape, that is, 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:43.800 it's like, obviously every company's priority is money, is profit 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:45.320 is you know, So. 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.760 That's if you think about it, a company is actually 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.120 a psychopath by design. 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.639 Yeah, I remember you saying that, you go on unpack that. 0:18:55.760 --> 0:19:01.520 I love that a companies is required by law to 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:07.880 maximize profit within the law for its shareholders. So there's 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.200 no bit of that that says be guided by your morals, 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:16.360 be empathetic, none of that. They are required by law 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:20.200 to make as much money as possible for their shareholders. Now, 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.199 shareholders might be a bit squeamish about doing some of 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:27.399 the things companies do, but the company is required without 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.240 regard to anything like that. The only boundary it has 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.919 to be set is do not break the law. So 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.760 as long as it is permissible within the current law 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.639 to do whatever they are doing, they must do it, 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.000 or else they are breaching their duty to their shareholders. 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.679 And that is a psychopath. A psychopath operates on the 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.080 basis of in any thing that I have to make 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.959 a decision about. I must maximize value to me without 0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.200 regard to anyone or anything else, as long as was 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.760 I don't break the law. And so a psychopath looks 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.120 at a problem from that perspective, and that's the fundamental 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:11.439 difference between them and everybody else, because everybody else pays 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.000 attention to what am I going to hurt somebody else 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:18.920 by doing this? And they take that into account. 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:28.560 Do you think, based on that rationale about companies being psychopathic, 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:31.080 religions are psychopathic? 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:40.359 Of course they are, absolutely doubt go on, well, any 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:47.520 organization that requires loyalty as the primary driver of the 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:52.359 way it works is operating fundamentally psychopathically. I mean all 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:54.480 psychopaths work on this. So if you look at say 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.960 the cult, look at the history of cults, which is 0:20:57.960 --> 0:20:59.520 always fascinating reading. 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:05.440 I love I love cult. I'm toyed with starting one, 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:07.800 but you know, just letting people know up front what 0:21:07.880 --> 0:21:08.240 it is. 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.720 I think you have started one, Craig. You know you've 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.960 got a fairly fairly loyal listenership there, haven't you. 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.919 Sh I try to cut that under wraps. 0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:21.679 But the difference between what you're doing, which is a 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.720 fan base who are following you and the cult? Is it? 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.480 A primary requirement of a cult is that the person 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:33.720 must be absolutely loyal, so there can be no questioning 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:39.000 at all, and any failure to be loyal is instantly punished. 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.120 Did you hear that, everyone stop fucking listening to Joe 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:43.399 Rogan and get back to me. 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:47.240 That's right, you know. And and if you had enough power, 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:51.760 you would start punishing them, undoubtedly. If I want you 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:57.240 to look into that, see if you can see if 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.159 you can make their their screens explode if they look 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.800 at Joe Rogan, I love Joe Rogan, I'd have to 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:04.960 explode myself. 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.520 Well, I like it. Yeah, it is so interesting when 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:13.679 you look through that lens of you know, psychopathic qualities. 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:19.840 Qualities doesn't seem but attributes. Yeah, that is because it 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:22.960 is very very you know like it. 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:28.040 Actually it plays to a weakness in the thing, which 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:30.679 is both a weakness and a strength in humans. So 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:33.480 if and I think we've talked about this briefly before, 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:36.760 but if you ask yourself the question, how is it 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:44.679 that a puny little animal with no clause, fangs, venom armor, 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:52.480 which is humans meat on feet, she's got claws you 0:22:52.520 --> 0:23:01.679 don't want to miss the tiff. But like armadillo, But 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.880 how is it that we dominate the planet when there's 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:06.879 all these other animals that could take us in a 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:11.639 one on one fight, you know, without even blinking, even tif, 0:23:11.920 --> 0:23:14.760 even t if versus a crocodile. I think I'd have 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:19.480 my money on the crocodile. No, no chance. I'll tell you. 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:21.240 If she could get in a couple of jabs, then 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:23.240 an uppercut, that crocodile be fucked. 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.200 Tiff. Tiff versus a crocodile and a great white shark. 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:28.240 What about that they. 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:32.639 Got a big chin to try and cover those crocs. Yeah, 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:35.480 you'd just be a little snack for a croctiff. You'd 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:39.640